PROCEEDINGS OF THE SUB-GROUP ON WORKPLACE 2010 AND PUBLIC SECTOR JOBS LOCATION

MINUTES OF MEETING HELD ON THURSDAY 14 DECEMBER 2006
HELD IN ROOM 152, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS

Present Edwin Poots (Chairman)
Dr Esmond Birnie
Thomas Buchanan
John Dallat
Pat Doherty MP
Robin Newton
Pat O’Rawe

In Attendance John Torney (Principal Clerk)
Stephen Graham (Committee Clerk)
Joanne Adair (Assistant Committee Clerk)
Sean Mc Cann (Clerical Supervisor)

Observing: Clive Mc Farland (DUP Researcher)
Mr Ronan Mc Cay (SDLP Researcher)
Mr Jackie Mc Mullan (Sinn Fein Researcher)

The meeting commenced at 11.03 a.m. in public session

1. Introduction

The Chairman welcomed members to the second meeting of the Sub-Group and explained the Committee on the Programme for Government’s decision on future chairing arrangements.

2. Apologies

Mr William Hay (Mr Thomas Buchanan attended the meeting as DUP Representative in place of William Hay).

3. Minutes of Proceedings

The minutes of the meeting of 7 December were agreed.

4. Matters Arising

Members noted the revised procedures for the sub-group as determined by Committee on the Programme for Government.

Members noted the revised Sub Group work programme and agreed to the possibility of a contingency meeting on 3 January 2007.

Members noted and accepted advice from the Assembly’s Head of Procurement Service against calling representatives of the firms that had tendered to the Workplace 2010 contract to give oral evidence.

5. Handling of Evidence Sessions

Members noted that officials from the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance (NIPSA) and the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP) were attending the meeting to give oral evidence and agreed handling arrangements for the evidence sessions and consideration of oral and written evidence.

The Sub-Group agreed the proposed format for the draft report circulated at the meeting and agreed that the consideration of the draft report at the next meeting should be held in closed session.

Members noted a letter from the Secretary of State regarding the provision of advice by Departmental officials to the Clerk to Committee on the Programme of Government and agreed to record their concern.

6. Declaration of Interests

Members were asked to declare any interest prior to the commencement of the evidence sessions. There were no declarations of interest.

7. Evidence Session with NIPSA

Representatives from NIPSA joined the meeting at 11.30 a.m.

The Chairman welcomed John Corey, Jim Lilley, Kieran Bannon and Janette Mc Nulty and gave a brief explanation of qualified privilege. John Corey gave a brief opening statement. Key issues included:

• NIPSA do not accept that the objectives of Workplace 2010 can only be achieved by a Private Finance Initiative (PFI)
• The cost to the taxpayer of the decision to take a PFI approach has the potential for Workplace 2010 to double the PFI debt to Northern Ireland
• The limited nature of the Equality Impact Assessment on Workplace 2010 and the Government’s obligations under Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act
• Concerns that the potential transfer of 500 Facilities Management staff is not in line with government policy

NIPSA then answered questions from members. The key areas of questioning were:

• The ongoing pilot exercise in Clare House
• The comparative costs of a PFI versus traditional procurement
• The implications for staff who refuse to transfer to the Private Service
• Provisions under TUPE arrangements
• The impact of Workplace 2010 and NIPSA’s views on decentralisation
• The possibility that any savings will come about by a reduction in the levels of provision and reduction in floor space

The Chairman thanked the NIPSA officials and they left the meeting at 12.15 p.m.

8. Evidence Session with Departmental Officials

Officials from the Department of Finance and Personnel joined the meeting at 12.17 p.m.

The Chairman welcomed Chris Thompson, Director of Corporate Services Group and Tommy O’Reilly, Programme Director, Workplace 2010. Chris Thompson gave a brief opening statement. Key issues included:

• Workplace 2010 is part of a wider reform programme in the NICS
• Workplace 2010 follows a clear national trend towards PFI as the best cost option and will lead to a cash injection of £250m
• DFP have an objective of no compulsory transfers to the private sector
• Workplace 2010 has the flexibility to accommodate the dispersal of public sector jobs
• The evaluation process for the remaining four consortia bidding for the Workplace 2010 contract
• The action taken by DFP in order to be open and transparent and to consulted as widely as possible

Officials then answered questions from members. The key areas of questioning were:

• Concerns that protection for local suppliers should be tied into the Workplace 2010 contract
• The comparative costs of a PFI versus traditional procurement including the best and worst case scenarios
• The role and cost of consultants for the Workplace 2010 project and the potential for conflicts of interest
• The arrangements for profit sharing with the NICS
• The possibility that Workplace 2010 could lead to re-centralisation of jobs to Belfast rather than decentralisation
• The methodology used to arrive at potential cost savings
• The cost, per job, of dispersal
• The Equality Impact Assessment process

The Chairman thanked the DFP officials and they left the meeting at 1.14 p.m.

The meeting was suspended at 1.15 p.m.

The meeting was reconvened at 1.30pm.

Mr Doherty proposed that the remainder of business today should take place in closed session. There was not consensus and the proposal fell. The meeting continued in public session.

9. Consideration of Oral Evidence

The Chairman sought members’ views on the key issues arising from the evidence sessions with NIPSA and DFP.

Key views arising from the NIPSA evidence session included:

• Concerns about value for money
• Concerns about privatisation and its impact on staff. For example, the lack of clarity about the pension rights of staff following their transfer to the private sector
• The impact that the loss of the NICS office estate could have on efforts to pursue a proactive decentralisation policy
• The degree of NIPSA’s commitment to a policy of decentralisation

Key views on the DFP evidence session included:

• Concerns about the lack of definite information about the potential costs of the PFI contract for Workplace 2010
• The potential benefits of decentralisation on local economies and the reduction of congestion in Greater Belfast
• The need to provide local suppliers with a share of the PFI contract without breaching regulations governing competition
• Concerns about direct rule ministers pursuing a PFI solution without taking account of the views of local politicians
• Concerns that the existing Equality Impact Assessments were inadequate

10. Consideration of Written Evidence

The Chairman sought members’ views on the key issues arising from the papers on the experience of decentralisation in Scotland and the Republic of Ireland.

Key issues arising from the paper on the experience of decentralisation in Scotland included:

• The Scottish programme of decentralisation as a means to address socio-economic needs
• The need to find a balance between efficiency and addressing those socio-economic needs
• The lack of data on the cost of decentralisation

Key issues arising from the paper on the experience of decentralisation in the Republic of Ireland included:

• The scale, complexity and concerns about the progress of the programme of decentralisation in the Republic of Ireland
• Comparisons between Edinburgh, Dublin and Belfast regarding congestion and the benefits and difficulties of decentralisation

The Chairperson sought members’ views on the key issues arising from the written submission received from the Committee on the Administration of Justice and a Belfast Telegraph news article provided by John Simpson.

Key issues arising from the written submission provided by the Committee on the Administration of Justice (CAJ) included:

• The degree to which the CAJ submission addressed the issues of geographical equality in Northern Ireland and Workplace 2010 and decentralisation issues
• Concerns raised in the submission regarding the inequalities in Workplace 2010

Key issues arising from the Belfast Telegraph news article provided by John Simpson included:

• Concerns raised in the article about the unavailability of information to undertake critical analysis
• The degree to which the article deals with all aspects of the outline business case for Workplace 2010

The Chairman advised members that any further issues, particularly relating to the Outline Business Case, should be forwarded to the Clerk by close of play on Friday 15 December, for inclusion in the draft report.

11. Any Other Business

The Sub-Group considered and agreed the tabled draft press release.

12. Date and Time of Next Meeting

The next meeting will take place on Thursday 21 December in Room 152, Parliament Buildings, at 11a.m.

Edwin Poots
Chairman

7 December / Menu / 21 December