Present: Dr J Hendron (Chairman)
Ms P Armitage
Mrs A Courtney
Mr T Gallagher (Deputy Chairman)
Mr T Hamilton
Mr J Kelly
Ms S Ramsey

Apologies: Mr P Berry
Rev R Coulter
Ms M McWilliams
Mrs I Robinson

In Attendance: Mr P Hughes (Committee Clerk)
Mr D Harkin (Assistant Clerk)
Mr D Gordon (Executive Support)
Mr W Long (Executive Support)
Mr B Greene (Administrative Support)
Mr C Thomas (NHS Management Trainee)

Dr Hendron took the Chair at 2:00 pm.

Public Session

1. Chairman's Opening Remarks

i. The Chairman reported briefly on his informal meeting on Monday, 30 September 2002 with Nexus Institute, an organisation dealing with adult survivors of sexual abuse and their families. A note of the meeting has been copied to members.

Agreed: Members were content, in principle, with the Chairman's proposal that a motion be tabled on behalf of the Committee for an Assembly debate supporting the valuable work of Nexus, and calling on the Secretary of State and the Executive to provide the necessary funding to support a regional service. The Clerk will prepare a draft motion for consideration at the next meeting.

ii. The Chairman reported briefly on the joint informal meeting with the Education Committee in the morning with representatives of the Chest Heart & Stroke Association. The members were briefed on the Young at Heart initiative, published by the National Heart Foundation, which proposes a national plan for the health and well-being of children and young people.

Agreed: Members were content for the drafting of a joint motion for plenary debate, on behalf of the two Committees, in support of the aims of the Young at Heart initiative. The two Clerks will liaise to produce a draft motion.

iii. The Chairman reported briefly on his informal meeting with Mr Andrew Curl, Vice-President, Association of British Pharmaceutical Industry on Monday, 30 September 2002.

iv. The Chairman reported briefly on his informal meeting with the Chief Dental Officer and British Dental Association. Issues of concern included the benefits of preventive action on tooth decay and the significant savings that could be achieved. The Clerk will examine the possibility of scheduling a Committee meeting with the Chief Dental Officer in mid-January 2003.

v. On behalf of the Committee, the Chairman expressed gratitude to Mr Chris Thomas, NHS Management Trainee, for his valuable work during his elective period.

2. Minutes of Proceedings of the Last Three Meetings

The Minutes of Proceedings of the meetings of Tuesday, 24 September, Wednesday, 25 September and Thursday, 26 September 2002 were agreed.

3. Matters Arising

The Clerk confirmed that all the action points arising from the meeting of Wednesday, 25 September 2002 were being progressed.

4. Subordinate Legislation

i. Statutory Rule No. 266/2002 - General Medical Services (Amendment No. 2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002

Question put and agreed to:

That the Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee has considered:

Statutory Rule No. 266/2002 - General Medical Services (Amendment No. 2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002

and, subject to the Examiner of Statutory Rules being satisfied as to its technical effectiveness, has no objection to the Rule.

ii. Food (Figs, Hazelnuts and Pistachios from Turkey) (Emergency Control No. 2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002

Agreed: That the Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee has no objection to the Department's proposal for the Food (Figs, Hazelnuts and Pistachios from Turkey) (Emergency Control No. 2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002.

Mr Kelly and Ms Ramsey left the meeting at 2.15pm and returned at 2.35pm.

[2.15pm]

5. Protection of Children and Vulnerable Adults Bill: Oral Evidence

Detective Chief Inspector William McAuley, Care Co-ordinator for Northern Ireland, PSNI

The Chairman welcomed DCI McAuley to the meeting. DCI McAuley then briefed the Committee on the importance of the implementation of Part V of the Police Act in Northern Ireland to the effectiveness of the Bill. He explained that this would allow the sharing of "soft" police information through an enhanced criminal record check. DCI McAuley emphasized that enactment of Part V of the Police Act would make the disclosure of information much more detailed and time effective. The Chairman thanked DCI McAuley, and he left the meeting at 2.35pm. The entire proceedings are recorded separately in verbatim minutes of evidence.

[2.35pm]

Departmental Officials: Mr John Clarke, Child Care Unit
Ms Eilis McDaniel, Child Care Unit

The Chairman referred members to a clause-by-clause briefing paper setting out the key issues and concerns, including suggested amendments, as highlighted by witnesses. He welcomed the Officials, who would be facilitating the Committee in its scrutiny of the Bill.

Ms Armitage left the meeting at 2.35pm and returned at 4.25pm.
Ms Courtney left the meeting at 2.55pm.
The meeting was suspended at 3.32pm and resumed at 3.40pm.

Clause 1 (Duty of Department to keep list)

Question, That the Committee is content with clause 1, put and agreed to.

Clause 2 (Inclusion in list on reference following disciplinary action, etc)

The Chairman advised that some witnesses had suggested that the requirement to refer individuals for inclusion on the register should not be restricted to child care organisations but should include all organisations. Mr Clarke advised that equivalent legislation is before the Scottish Assembly. He advised that to amend the legislation by replacing "A child care organisation shall" with "All organisations shall" would not prove effective, as it could not be enforced in practice. He cautioned that the legislation was operating in relation to the vetting of individuals and was not meant to provide certificates of clearance for work with children.

The Committee deferred further consideration of the clause until next week's meeting.

Clause 3 (Employment agencies, nursing agencies and employment businesses: duty to refer)

Question, That the Committee is content with clause 3, put and agreed to.

Clause 4 (Power of certain other authorities to refer)

Scrutiny of clause 4 was deferred as a consequence of the Committee's further consideration of clause 2.

Clause 5 (Individuals named in the findings of certain inquiries)

Question, That the Committee is content with clause 5, put and agreed to.

Clause 6 (Inclusion in list on reference under Part II)

Question, That the Committee is content with clause 6, put and agreed to.

Clause 7 (Reference by authority making direct payments in respect of services)

Scrutiny of clause 7 was deferred in the context of the Committee's further deliberations on clauses 2 and 4.

Clause 8 (Inclusion in list on transfer from Pre-Employment Consultancy Service Register)

Question, That the Committee is content with clause 8, put and agreed to.

Clause 9 (Appeals against inclusion in list)

Question, That the Committee is content with clause 9, put and agreed to.

Clause 10 (Application for removal from list)

Question, That the Committee is content with clause 10, put and agreed to.

Clause 11 (Conditions for application under section 10)

Question, That the Committee is content with clause 11, put and agreed to.

Clause 12 (Restoration to list)

Further scrutiny of this clause was deferred pending the Department's clarification of the need to ensure that executive directors of social work in HSS Trusts may apply for an order in respect of an individual being restored to the list.

Clause 13 (List in connection with prohibiting or restricting employment in schools etc)

Scrutiny of this clause was deferred pending input from officials from the Department of Education.

Clause 14 (Effect of inclusion in either list)

Scrutiny of clause 14 was deferred pending the Committee's consideration of clause 2.

Clause 15 (Access to the lists)

Scrutiny of clause 15 was deferred pending a response from the Northern Ireland Office on the commencement of the Police Act 1997 in Northern Ireland.

Clause 16 (Accredited organisations)

Scrutiny of clause 16 was deferred pending the Committee's consideration of clause 2.

Clause 17 (Whistle-blowing by employee or member of child care organisation)

Scrutiny of clause 17 was deferred pending the Department's further consideration of the suggested amendment by the NSPCC to allow one organisation to whistle-blow on another.

Clause 18 (Interpretations of this Chapter)

Scrutiny of clause 18 was deferred pending the Committee's consideration of clause 2.

Clause 19 (Transitional provisions)

Question, That the Committee is content with clause 19, put and agreed to.

Clause 20 (Meaning of "offence against a child")

Mr Clarke explained that the Department had been examining the new Scottish legislation, which introduces a concept that is different from disqualification orders. It means that courts can make referrals directly to the Department and avoid the difficulty with disqualification orders. Scrutiny of the clause was deferred pending the Department's consideration of the suggested amendment and the flexibility afforded by the Scottish approach.

Clause 21 (Disqualification of adults from working with children)

Mr Clarke advised that the Department would consider a suggested amendment by the Probation Board that the qualifying sentence should include community orders, and a suggested amendment to sub-section 5 by Ms McWilliams, which was essentially a strengthening provision. The clause was referred for further consideration.

Clause 22 (Disqualification of juveniles from working with children)

Mr Clarke advised that the suggested amendment to strengthen the disqualification provisions would be considered in the context of the Department's further examination of the Scottish system, which gives the courts the power to make referrals to the Department.

Clause 23 (Sections 21 and 22: supplementary)

Scrutiny of clause 23 was deferred for the same reason as clause 22.

Clause 24 (Appeals)

As clause 24 refers to a disqualification order, which is the subject of a suggested amendment, scrutiny was deferred until next week's meeting.

The Chairman thanked the Officials for their input, and the Committee Stage of the Bill was adjourned until next week's meeting.

[3.40pm]

6. Inquiry into Child Protection Services in Northern Ireland: Oral Evidence

Association of Directors of Social Services:

Mr Hugh Connor, Dir.of Social Work, South & East Belfast HSS Trust
Ms Brenda Smyth, Dir. of Social Services, Homefirst

The Chairman welcomed the witnesses to the meeting, and Mr Connor gave a brief presentation on the main issues relating to child protection services from the perspective of a Social Services Agency. The entire proceedings are recorded separately in verbatim minutes of evidence. The Chairman thanked the panel members, and they left the meeting at 4.20pm.

[4.20pm]

7. AOB

i. Motion to establish a sub-committee of the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety

Question put and agreed to:

That the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety agrees the establishment of a sub-committee to:

"Take evidence in connection with the Committee's Inquiry into Child Protection Services in Northern Ireland. It shall submit the minutes of evidence taken to the Committee for its consideration and adoption. It shall stand dissolved upon disposal of those matters. The sub-committee shall not take any decision on behalf of the Committee.

The Committee shall appoint a convenor to the sub-committee.

The sub-committee shall, as far as is practicable, reflect the party strengths in the Assembly, as represented on the Committee. Each party represented may nominate a member to sit on the sub-committee. The Committee shall appoint a convenor to the sub-committee. All members of the Committee may attend meetings of the sub-committee.

The quorum of the sub-committee shall be three."

Agreed: The Committee agreed that the Chairman should act as convenor.

ii. Agreed: In light of the Committee's heavy work programme, it was agreed that, in future, the weekly meetings would commence at 1.30pm.

iii. The Chairman advised members of Mr Berry's prayer of annulment in respect of the Fire Services (Appointments and Promotion) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002, which will be debated on Monday, 07 October 2002.

iv. Agreed: The Clerk will arrange for a briefing on public finances to the Committee by the Department of Finance and Personnel, to help inform members' consideration of the draft Budget.

v. Agreed: Following a concern raised by the Deputy Chairman regarding a fatal accident involving a fire engine in Fermanagh, the Clerk will write to the Department to request that the Committee be kept informed about the independent investigation into the vehicle's safety.

vi. Agreed: Following a concern raised by the Deputy Chairman about the placement of student nurses, the Clerk will write to the Department to request details of the current contract arrangements between the Department and the two universities for these placements.

vii. Agreed: In light of the Committee's concerns about the recent numbers of suicides among young people, particularly in North and West Belfast, the Clerk will write to the Department to request the latest suicide statistics, both at a regional and Trust level, and to ask what action is being taken to address the growing problem.

viii. The Chairman reminded members of seminar by Prof Arthur Midwinter, University of Strathclyde, on Northern Ireland's Expenditure Needs: A Preliminary Assessment from 10.00am to 12.00pm on Friday, 04 October in Room 144, Parliament Buildings.

8. Date and Time of the Next Meeting

The next meeting will be at 10.00am on Thursday, 03 October 2002 in the Senate Chamber, when the Committee will take oral evidence in relation to its Inquiry into Child Protection Services. The normal weekly meeting will take place at 1.30pm on Wednesday, 09 October 2002 in Room135, Parliament Buildings.

The meeting ended at 4.30 pm.

DR J HENDRON
COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN
October 2002

26 September 2002 / Menu / 3 October 2002