COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

2966.

It is, in fact, a parallel structure to the social partnership that exists in the state. The Skills Implementation Group is complementary to that. It is a group of high-level public servants, consisting of the secretaries general of the Department of Education and Science, the Department of Enterprise Trade and Employment, and the Department of Finance, along with the heads of Forfás and the Higher Education Authority. It meets to consider the recommendations that emanate from the expert skills group, and, through its influence, it ensures that the Government move to implement the recommendations and actions identified in the reports.

2967.

The Business, Education and Training Forum has evolved into a meeting, at a sub-level, of educators and the business community to review the recommend­ations emanating from reports produced by the expert skills group. It reviews how sensible and applicable those recommendations are, and it estimates the resources necessary to meet the skill needs that are identified.

2968.

The three groups work in a clover pattern to help and advise the state on what actions it should take to address present and future needs in the areas of education, skills development, immigration, labour market changes and in-company training.

2969.

The skills awareness campaign is an important adjunct of the expert skills group. The group started in 1997, and it began to view a number of the major economic sectors in the Irish economy to take a five to ten-year perspective on the supply and demand of the various skills needed in those sectors.

2970.

It began to address, sector by sector, the actions needed over a five to seven-year period. It looked at how the education system, in-company training, the second-level education system, and all the instruments of education and skills training in the state could be focused on addressing those skills needs. For example, the first skills report, which was produced in early 1998, identified that there was a shortfall of some 5,400 qualified professionals in the IT industry. It recommended that the Government should invest some IR£75 million in educational resources to meet that need and address the shortcomings in that industry over the subsequent five years. That was accepted by the Government and implemented.

2971.

The second skills report looked at the area of life sciences. In the science sectors of biology and chemistry it identified a shortfall of some 1,000 professionals. The Government and the education system took steps to address those shortages by putting in place extra courses to meet the future demands and professional needs of the industry.

2972.

The expert skills group examines the supply and demand patterns in the Irish economy on a sectoral basis. It tries to match demand with supply, and it looks at how best the demands can be addressed. It examines whether the educational system can be tweaked or changed to meet some of the skill needs, and whether those needs can be met by improving the skills and expertise of the existing workforce through in-company training. It also explores the possibility of filling some of the niche areas through targeted immigration.

2973.

The third report will be published in the next two to three months. It identifies a niche market need for skilled researchers, particularly in the areas of bio­technology, information and communication technology and the physical sciences. There is a shortfall in the state in those areas and, over the next two years, we will be running a campaign to attract researchers and research assistants from EU and non-EU countries to help to address that shortfall.

2974.

The group recognises that there is little purpose in drawing up or implementing detailed reports unless we can address the issues of secondary-level education and entry into tertiary level. We have therefore put in place a significant programme aimed at highlighting to school leavers the occupations and career opportunities that may evolve. Lorcan O'Raghallaigh will explain how that works.

2975.

Mr O'Raghallaigh: The National Skills Aware­ness Campaign committee is a subcommittee of the expert group on skills. The committee comprises repre­sentatives from industry and education, as well as social partners. Its importance has grown in recent months; for example, its budget has increased from IR£70,000 last year to over IR£240,000 this year. The committee decides how it uses that money. For example, in the past it produced a brochure highlighting opportunities in certain skills areas, which was delivered to every secondary-level student, from transition year to sixth year. It also produced a video to illustrate each of the skills areas, which was distributed to every guidance counsellor in the country. The committee works very closely with the guidance counsellors to encourage them to spend as much time as possible in promoting careers in those skills areas.

2976.

There have been other skills awareness campaigns. For example, the Institution of Engineers of Ireland has a campaign, scheduled to run over a five-year period, to encourage young people to take up careers in engineering. CERT, the hospitality and tourism industry's training agency, has a very extensive campaign aimed at encouraging people to enter the hotel and catering industry.

2977.

Forfás also has a science campaign to attract young people, from primary-school level, to study physics and chemistry, which are areas in which numbers have dropped. We work proactively and actively with industries, schools and the Department of Education. Many major companies in Ireland, such as Analog Devices, Intel and Motorola, work with local schools. They often invite transition-year classes to spend the day at their facility with their education liaison officer. This is aimed at encouraging people to consider pursuing a career in this area by showing them the opportunities that exist.

2978.

The Institution of Engineers of Ireland holds an engineering day where every qualified member of the institution is asked to take at least one child to their work place and make it as interesting as possible. If you are working on a large building site then the child can be quite excited about that. If you are in a design office it might be quite different. All of those campaigns are trying to attract young people to choose these jobs as careers. We need more young people. FÁS is taking a roadshow across Europe, and as far as Newfoundland, Boston and Chicago, in an attempt to attract Irish people back, and also to attract foreign people, if they have the skills.

2979.

Mr Bannon: I would like to give you an overview of some of the work already done and some that is now in place. The first skills report was published in 1998. It focused on IT skills and identified the actions to be taken. The second report was published a year and a half later, and it revisited the IT sector but identified that the actions we had promoted under the first report were adequate to meet the needs.

2980.

The second report also looked at life sciences and the construction sector. It deemed that there was a shortage of 1,000 skilled professionals in the area and it made recommendations. It also looked at the need for researchers and identified that the action needed was not serious enough to require work at that time.

2981.

The third report, which we are about to release, will look at the IT sector, life sciences, the construction sector, researchers and the manner in which we have implemented our other recommendations to date. There are very large skill shortages, particularly in the construction and IT sectors. The state has only begun to address the shortages in the research sector and the need for an awareness campaign.

2982.

We have published five horizontal reports. The first was on in-company training and focused on the need for education and learning in industry to be based on a tripartite approach. The individual, the industry and the Government jointly need to address educational needs. We identified that there needed to be a change in the mindset of small companies to ensure that they realised that investment in the education of their workforces was an investment, not a cost. They needed to see that there would be a return on that investment. We exhorted the industry that, even though it felt that by reskilling the workforce it was doing so for someone else's benefit, it was a risk that it should take. It is difficult to change such a mindset.

2983.

There is a need to help small industries release people for training. We subsidise much of the training costs of external courses. However, there are two issues involved. One issue is the portability of training and how it can lead to qualifications and become part of a lifelong-built set of qualifications. The second issue is the need for employers to recognise that they need to reskill their workforce. One thing that people look for when applying for jobs is the opportunity for future training, advancement and skill enhancement. Unless employers provide training opportunities their workforce will be dissatisfied. There is a need to recognise that.

2984.

We also produced a report on e-business. The main core of it was the establishment of another forum, focusing on electronics, to bring together education professionals in the IT and computer sectors in the colleges, the various IT representative bodies, the Government and business representatives to continually sit and refocus on the training needs of that industry. One of the issues that emerged - and this touches on the teacher exchanges that were mentioned in the earlier evidence session - was the need to acquire trainers or IT specialists who are up to date and who have the skills to provide the training in the third-level institutions that is needed for modern industry.

2985.

As with other teachers in the third-level sector, the skilled trainers or educators in that area simply cannot be afforded. Therefore we are putting together a process, involving international - particularly multi­national - industry in Ireland and the third-level institutions, to share skilled professionals. For example, in integrated circuit design they may be able to share the skills of work managers or operatives on the shop floor to help in course design and training in third-level institutions.

2986.

We are working on a project to look at the return of the over-55s to the Irish workforce. We have identified that the Irish labour force is down the league table in European terms, and we are looking at what incentives or mechanisms can be put in place to attract more people from that cohort back into the workforce.

2987.

We are continually doing vacancy surveys, on a regional and occupation basis throughout the country, to identify the vacancy levels down to an occupation level and to better identify the sorts of skills that we will need over the next year and how we can forecast that better.

2988.

We are looking at two other large projects. One that Lorcan O'Raghallaigh referred to is looking at the need for engineers in the economy, and the shortages that are coming up, particularly in view of the national plan that will absorb a huge number of the skilled workforce and may need a lot of external resources to achieve. Another project is starting to look at the issue of the scarcity of women working in the high- technology sector.

2989.

Mr Beggs: You may have some lessons for us to learn for our own training establishments. You said that Forfás was involved in co-ordinating, rather than managing, and trying to create competitiveness. From personal experience in the small industry sector in Northern Ireland, I have had difficulty in tendering in the Republic because of what I consider to be restrictive practices. Despite having the International Standardisation Organisation (ISO) 9002, additional, very similar, quality tests were required, and those tests imposed additional anti-competitive burdens on Northern Ireland companies in cross-border trading. I just want to register that fact.

2990.

How accurately have you been able to predict the future skills needs, because it is a difficult science to know where the market is going? There have been a lot of successes, but have there been mistakes? Regarding your national skill awareness, we too have surveys of where vacancies are going to be.

2991.

How have you been able to get the schools, the further education colleges and the career guidance people to think of where the job vacancies lie, rather than narrow-mindedly thinking of academia? How have you been able to take that information and move the educational world forward in conjunction with the industry's needs?

2992.

Mr Bannon: I will take your comments on board. If you mention the sector afterwards, I might be able to put a word in the right place.

2993.

You mentioned the rather inexact science - it may be optimistic to call it a science at all - in attempting to forecast skill shortages, and the demand and supply of skills, over a five to ten-year horizon. We have gone through some four iterations in four or five major sectors, and we are still widening the scope. We are getting better as we go along. It is a matter of doing it repeatedly. When you do it the third time, you were probably better than the first.

2994.

We have made blunders throughout in various places. I would prefer not to describe them, but there have been mistakes. We started the cycle in 1997-98. We have done it three times, and this autumn we will simply start again. If we survive until 2002 we will do the same. Through this continual process we are becoming better at what we do. We are becoming more knowledgeable about the labour market base, and we are becoming more effective. It will not be right, but it is getting better - we are getting closer to being correct.

2995.

The second question you asked is probably more structural than first meets the eye. The configuration of decision making in the education sector in the Republic is such that the funding moves through the Department of Education, via the Higher Education Authority, to the third-level institutions.

2996.

The Higher Education Authority is one of our partners in managing the process. By having it and the Department of Education sitting at the table prior to the recommendations being sent to the Government, we know that the recommendations are regarded as being good. If they do not think that they are good, they will have to explain to the industry representatives why they are not doing what the industry suggests would be right and proper for the future of that industry. We are able to bring a lot of influence to bear on the third-level institutions in this regard.

2997.

We are just beginning to address the second- level sector. We have major problems there. The strength of the economy is such that we are having difficulty retaining our senior-cycle-level students. Many of them are working outside of their school hours, which, we have been advised, is to the detriment of their education.

2998.

We are considering in a number of our reports how we could provide incentives or regulation that would limit the number of hours that senior-cycle students could work while they are at school. We could put in place some sort of incentive to ensure that students do not drop out through the course of the senior cycle.

2999.

We are beginning to address the issues at tertiary level. We seem to have achieved the highest level of completion rates in our third-level cycles, but the problem with having achieved this level is that you can only go down.

3000.

We need incentives. Perhaps we need to supply specialist student advisers and a range of other people to support students who are having difficulties in their degree courses. We need to support students to maximise our completion rates at tertiary level.

3001.

Mrs Carson: Your presentation was fascinating. Is Forfás a quango? Are you appointed or are you civil servants? How many people are on your board? Forfás has a broad remit. What is its link and relationship with elected members, and how does it relate back through its hierarchy to elected members? Does Forfás take direction from the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment or are matters left to the board?

3002.

You have a tremendous remit; you advise the Minister, and that is a large undertaking. Forfás has a very large budget for a subcommittee - IR£560 million in the technology fund. Will you provide some background on Forfás for the Committee please?

3003.

Mr Bannon: We work for Forfás, which, I suppose, is a quango; it is a semi-state body. It is not a state body; it hovers between the civil service and commercial semi-state bodies. The experts skills group is a sub-set of Forfás, and it works in the skills area. Boards are appointed by the Ministers. The board of Forfás is appointed by the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It is broadly representative of the social partners.

3004.

Mr O'Raghallaigh: The chairman of the Forfás board is John Dunne from IBEC, which represents the business community. He took over from Peter Cassells of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU), who is about to be replaced by David Beggs. In 1997, 18 members were appointed to the Expert Group on Future Skills Needs. I will leave you copies of the reports.

3005.

Mrs Carson: That would be helpful, because I was trying to understand the lineage and the hierarchy; it is a bit confusing.

3006.

Mr O'Raghallaigh: There are 18 members. The meetings take place every six to eight weeks, and 25 to 30 people turn up. These are people who are interested in the work being done, and they request permission to attend the meetings. All the meetings are held in private; they are not open to members of the public.

3007.

The expert group reaches decisions, and those decisions are shown in an annual report making recommendations. The implementation group that Mr Bannon mentioned is made up of high-level civil servants - the secretaries general of the major imple­menting Departments. They look at that report and say, "Yes, we agree with that report. We are prepared to recommend it to the Ministers". The Ministers are not going to disagree with their senior civil servants. Once they put their seal on it, they are endorsing those recommendations.

3008.

To date there have been 96 recommendations out of the reports that we have published. As Séamus Bannon said, we have learnt since the beginning. In some of the early recommendations we used such words as "encourage co-operation between industry, the trade unions and education". We no longer use "encourage"; we say "Here is a specific target for you to meet by the end of 2001".

3009.

We have followed up all of the 96 recommen­dations, and we will publish the findings from that follow-up. Anybody who is lax in implementing what was approved by the expert and implementation groups, and endorsed by the Government, will stand out. That is how it happens.

3010.

Mrs Carson: How are your members paid?

3011.

Mr O'Raghallaigh: They are all voluntary. Having said that, Séamus Bannon and I both work for Forfás. I am the joint secretary of the expert group, so it is part of my job. There is a member from the Department of Education, and part of his job is to be on the expert group. Part of the jobs of people from Government Departments is to serve on the expert group.

3012.

However, there are several members who represent industry, and they are there in a voluntary capacity. A representative of the ICTU is there as part of his job. David Lowe, from Goodbody Stockbrokers, is there as a voluntary appointee of a Minister. Joe McCarthy, a private consultant, also gives his time to it.

3013.

Because we only meet every eight weeks, a subgroup is appointed to look at the construction industry. That subgroup might meet six times in those eight weeks to come up with its recommendations to the expert group. A subgroup will look at the life sciences, or the IT sector, and come up with recommen­dations to the expert group. The expert group is perfectly entitled to ask the subgroup difficult questions. The subgroup must be able to answer those questions before the expert group will endorse the report.

3014.

Mrs Carson: That is fascinating, and it will give us a lot of thought.

3015.

Ms McWilliams: It is an interesting model. However, given that the model is so effective in following through to the implementation stage and setting the targets and timetables, do you achieve open public debate on the issues? Do the reports reach the Floor of the Oireachtas and are they widely debated? Is your work widely disseminated in the community? Do the press take an active interest in what you are doing? How do you generally communicate this model of work?

3016.

Where did the skills design come from? Did it come from a recognition that, in the absence of interaction between the practitioners and the teachers, people were not quite meeting the needs, or was it driven as a recommendation from one of the reports? Has it been expanded? Did it start as a pilot project? Was there much reaction from the universities and colleges to the redesign of the curriculum? Was it received positively?

3017.

Mr Bannon: There had been, since 1995 or 1996, some interaction, particularly between the regional technical colleges, or the institutes of technology as they became, and the newer industries, such as Intel, in looking at the type of graduate needed.

3018.

Out of that interaction a relationship emerged involving the public relations departments of some of the major industries and the universities. They discussed course content and how courses might be adapted. That was the genesis of it. We then captured that in a number of the reports to "cast it in stone". It was an evolving thing, rather than a piece of research that identified a need for course design and the fact that industry could impact upon that.

3019.

Mr O'Raghallaigh: I want to add one point. In the presentation that you received from Letterkenny Institute of Technology, I would be surprised if it did not mention that it is designing, in co-operation with industry, courses to attract young people.

3020.

It is competing for young people, and many young people do not know what they want to do. The Central Applications Office lists up to 500 courses around the country. Young people could be really impressed by a course in multimedia e-commerce skills at Letterkenny - or a course at Trinity College in Dublin or Waterford Institute of Technology. They can be so impressed by the course contents that they will decide that moving to Donegal, Dublin or Waterford is not a bad idea.

3021.

The institutes realise that, to keep numbers up, they must make the courses attractive to young people otherwise they will not get funding. The Higher Education Authority and the National Council for Education Awards will not provide funds to colleges or institutes if they do not make the courses relevant for both industry and the young people themselves.

3022.

Mr Bannon: Your questions on our relationship with the public and our elected representatives, and on the debate and discourse in relation to our work, were very interesting. Debate on our reports on the Floor of the Oireachtas is minimal. However, our reports have formed the basis of six or seven memoranda to the Government over the past years for Cabinet decision.

3023.

The expert group, in reporting directly to the two Ministers involved, somewhat bypasses the elected representative debate. It goes, through its Ministers, to the Cabinet. The discussion takes place in the Cabinet and the various Departments to ensure that they are all happy with the way the report is represented and the recommendations therein. The reports have featured in debates in the House from time to time, but not formally. The main implementation group does, to an extent, bypass debate in the House.

3024.

We have - and Lorcan O'Raghallaigh has a copy with him - a supplement that was published last January in 'The Irish Times' on the total skills work. Our reports are covered and discussed by the papers. The press coverage is not huge, but we generally send every report to the decision makers whom we consider to be relevant, both in industry and in the public sector.

3025.

We have a run of some 3,000 copies. Copies are sent by the chairman of the skills group to identified decision makers, drawing their attention to the recommen­dations and suggesting where they should perhaps play their part in implementing the recommendations. It is quite a hands-on approach.

3026.

Mr O'Raghallaigh: From a press and publicity point of view it is not one of the key issues that attracts the press. We have coverage in three newspapers - the 'Irish Examiner', the 'Irish Independent' and 'The Irish Times'. John Walsh writes in the 'Irish Independent', while Emmett Oliver and Sean Flynn write for 'The Irish Times'. When we launch a report we will get some coverage, but that is not what it is about for us.

3027.

No one in the expert group is an elected representative. They are all people from industry or work. Publicity is not the key for them. They like to see it, because it shows a response to their work, but we do not try to get publicity. The implementation of the report recommendations is what counts.

3028.

Mr Byrne: I too thank you for your presentation. In relation to the expert groups, who is taking the lead in data research between the meetings? Do you have a strong liaison with individual sectors, or their representatives, such as CERT in the catering industry?

3029.

In relation to the critical analysis and appraisal of the bottlenecks in industry, is it the commitment of the members of the group that is bringing the truth of the situation to the discussion table? How do you bridge the gap between the administrators, the academics, and people in the field, such as the technicians?

3030.

Mr Bannon: Taking IT skills as an example, Forfás manages the research in a subgroup context. The subgroup consists of members from the main expert skills group and some other people who we think have something to offer. We build on research by consultants, and, to the best of our ability, using the work that we have done previously, we identify the shortages and demands. We talk to the IDA Ireland and look for five to seven-year horizons. We talk to Enterprise Ireland about indigenous industry and look for five to seven-­year horizons and employment patterns. We attempt to ascertain the occupational and skill profiles that are needed to fill the gaps, and we get that endorsed by the subgroup. In such a process we also bring together 30 or 40 of the main decision makers in one room, put the recommendations and research in front of them and ask them if the results seem reasonable. We did that in January this year, but there was a problem then because of the downturn in the IT sector, particularly in the USA. You cannot continue to research every month because of the economic fluctuations in a particular market. However, we got a reassurance that our projections for supply and demand were adequate and that they would meet the needs of the industry over the next five to seven years.

3031.

When you speak about the people in the field, I assume that you mean the educators or the trainers. We tend to use the leverage of the funding mechanisms that are represented on the expert skills group. A person from a college in Letterkenny will talk to local industry to find out what courses to offer so that the course places will be filled through the Central Applications Office. The course will then get funding from the Department of Education and Science and the Higher Education Authority, representatives of which sit on the expert skills group. It knits together - it is stronger than a moral authority. If you have a funding agency that thinks, for example, that you should offer three courses in a particular subject, you might be reluctant to say "no" if that agency is responsible for paying your cheque at the end of the week.

3032.

Mr O'Raghallaigh: You mentioned the commit­ment of members to the expert group. The members' involvement goes beyond commitment - they have enthusiasm for the work. It is fine for me and for Séamus Bannon to contribute, because it is part of our day jobs, and it is the same for the representative of the Department of Education and Science. It is the private members who give their own time - not just to the expert group but also to the subgroups. We do not pay them. We probably have only one lunch per year, which does not even include wine, but they still want to be involved.

3033.

Mr Dallat: You spoke about the "Celtic tiger" and about how young people can rush out and start earning big money with no skills. However, when all the buildings that are being built are completed they are going to be occupied by employers who will demand the very best skills. Those employers will certainly demand that their staff have the basic ability to read and write. The Department of Education and Science and the ICTU recommended an initiative to address literacy and numeracy. We would be interested to know how that has gone, because it is a serious problem in the North and, I expect, in the Republic also.

3034.

Mr Bannon: Could we take a rain check on that question, because I am not sure that I have the answer?

3035.

Mr O'Raghallaigh: One of our colleagues, Kay Hallahan, has followed that up. She has the information. I will give the Committee Clerk a call and let him know what progress has been made or what initiatives have been taken.

3036.

Mr Dallat: That would be excellent.

3037.

The report that I was referring to also makes reference to social problems and negative attitudes to work et cetera. The discussion so far has been concentrated and very good, but the real world is not perfect. That is why I asked about literacy and numeracy and why I would ask about attitudes to work and social problems. In your opinion, how can the issue of attitudes, and related issues, be addressed?

3038.

Mr O'Raghallaigh: I will give an example. Last night I was at the National Basketball Stadium in Tallaght. It was a really wet night. My son was in a children's choir and was not enthusiastic about going. He would have preferred to watch the Liverpool match. When we came out it was very cold with lashing rain, and there were guys directing the cars out. There were about 600 to 700 adults at the event. This morning I was talking to a colleague, and I said "I was really surprised to see those guys there. How much do you pay guys at 11.30 at night to direct cars out of a car park?" His answer to me was that those men would be on a community employment scheme. They would perhaps be long-term unemployed people who do not have a great attitude to work.

3039.

They get paid a sum of money per week, but they give hours to local community work during that time. Those hours are decided by a local community office - a FÁS office. Those guys drew the short straw last night and were directing the traffic at 11.30pm in the freezing cold, but they may not work the rest of the week. There are a number of people in any community who are not used to working - who do not have a positive attitude to work. That is a gentle way to try to reintroduce them to work. Perhaps it means getting them to clean out the canal for a few hours per day or to clean up the rubbish by the sides of the roads.

3040.

From my experience in the USA, I know that chain gangs are used to do that type of thing. There are various local community employment schemes around Ireland. A work party is organised under the local community employment scheme to weed the flower beds at Glendalough. It is a fine balance as to what the gardeners, the landscapers and the Coillte workers do and what the local employment office suggests for community employment. Our concentration, and the work of the expert group, has been toward the higher level. Due to the pressure that we are under, it is going to continue to be toward the higher level.

3041.

Other organisations are looking at what can be done for the lower level. Séamus Bannon mentioned the over-55s - people who are not necessarily the lower level. They have a very good attitude to work, but the employers do not have a great attitude towards them. Women could be a fantastic asset to the workforce, but they need to be convinced, and employers need to be convinced, that they would make a welcome contribution to their area.

3042.

Mr Bannon: I want to add to what Lorcan O'Raghallaigh has said. We are looking - and we have not made this as public as perhaps we should have - at various means of attempting to keep people in work. We are looking at the over-55s group. We are considering the possible ring-fencing of social security payments for people who are in retirement or in social welfare systems so that they will not be disadvantaged by re-entering the workforce. A range of such issues may be the subject of a report later in the year.

3043.

We are also looking at attempting to get the maximum number of potential participants into the workforce from those groups that are traditionally not in it. For example, there are some inner-city schools in Dublin that would have had only one leaving certificate student going to third-level education in the past five years. That is crazy. If we are to continue to get the type of workforce that the Irish economy needs, some things will have to change.

3044.

There may be opportunities to upskill people in prisons to make them more available to the workforce. In doing things like that we can cover a couple of policy issues with one approach. We also want to concentrate on early school leavers and perhaps apply something such as training grants for tertiary-level education for those in deprived areas. People would not have to go out to work, and, if they are from a socially deprived area, they may be able to acquire means-tested grants or subsistence to enable them to continue with school. We are looking at a range of social areas across the board.

3045.

The remit of the expert group is not only to look at the higher skills required by the demand-driven economy in Ireland but also to look at labour market issues. The more people that we can get from our own population into the workforce, the less we have to depend on immigrants. The impact of immigrants on housing, education and the social services will be reduced if we can encourage more of our own population into the workforce.

3046.

Mr Dallat: Is it true that the abolition of university fees did nothing for the type of people about whom we are talking?

3047.

Mr Bannon: That did not do anything - certainly not in my experience.

3048.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you for your contribution this afternoon, and for taking the time to travel up and meet us. Your submission was useful and informative, and we will look at it with regard to our own situation. The Committee will see how the good practice that you have employed can be applied to the benefit of all our people. We wish you well in the job that you are doing for the people in Southern Ireland.

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