COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

2881.

One problem that we encounter, which is probably a feature of all border regions, is the lure of the "Celtic tiger" and the movement of labour to the Republic of Ireland, given the current success of that economy. That encourages young people to leave the area relatively unskilled, although they can demand high wages in that economy. The fear for the future is that when those people return, they may not have the skills necessary to re-enter the labour market in the North. It also creates a labour shortage in the region.

2882.

The need for further linkages between colleges of further and higher education and universities is another major issue. I said that the Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education has associate membership of the University of Ulster. A satellite campus of a university in this region would be extremely beneficial on a number of fronts. It would enable the region to enjoy a wider range of degree level courses and encourage young people to stay in the area. Presently, the majority of students move out of the area to study in Belfast, Dublin or further afield, many of whom never return. However, the establishment of such a campus in this region would encourage people to stay at home to study and possibly remain in the area for the duration of their working lives.

2883.

The gap between secondary and higher education needs to be addressed. The current goal remains to go to a grammar school and then to university. The secondary schools promote a similar approach. The design of the curriculum, especially at Key Stages 3 and 4, should be more reflective of the needs of industry and encourage industry and self-employment as a viable career option for everyone. There is a need for stronger links between secondary level education and further education to promote vocational training. There has been a move towards vocational A levels, but that needs to be developed and taken further.

2884.

It has also been suggested via the business education partnership that there is a need for a co-ordinated approach to careers advice. In many instances careers advice is a responsibility that is added to a teacher's other duties, and it is not given the priority that it requires in shaping young people's future. Schools at a regional level should co-ordinate with each other and have specialised careers advisers who regularly liaise with industry so that they are fully appraised of the changing needs of industry. The needs of industry are changing rapidly.

2885.

The council piloted a scheme of teacher placements into industry via the business education partnership. That was a successful initiative, but there were problems with financial resources. The council feels that a stronger support to facilitate a wider programme of teacher placements in industry would be beneficial.

2886.

Over the past number of years the education system has been more focused on industrial placements for students. The council has weekly telephone calls from students seeking work placements. There are quite a number of small local industries, and it is difficult for small businesses to offer student placements. The council feels that it would be beneficial to have a centralised system of one agency for co-ordinating student place­ments. That would be more structured and beneficial to students, and it would offer them worthwhile place­ments in careers that they may wish to pursue.

2887.

Cllr McCart: I do not need to be converted to the advantages of education and training for industry. I was fortunate to work for almost 40 years for what was then the Reed International Company, which was to the forefront of industrial training. I received formal training when I was a machine man.

2888.

I have intermittently been on the board of governors of the college of further and higher education since 1967, and one year I was the chairman. I was attempting an O level in economics, and I was lecturing at a part-time course on management studies.

2889.

I am convinced that the secret for successful industrial development in our area is the development of a viable and suitable college of further and higher education. We are proud of our college of education, and I am privileged to serve on its board. However, more emphasis needs to be placed on links with industry.

2890.

Cllr Hanna: I am chairman of the board of governors of Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education. Mr McGilly mentioned in his presentation that there are small businesses with four or five employees, including the owner. Those owners find that it would be uneconomic to release their young employees to come to the college for training. Is there any possibility that money could be made available to compensate the employers for the time the young person would spend in training? We have a problem getting small firms to give their young employees one or two days a week off work to come for training.

2891.

The Deputy Chairperson: Are you suggesting that there should be some form of subsidy or training grant?

2892.

Cllr Hanna: Yes, because is it not possible for a small firm to bear that cost on its own. Young people are missing out on proper qualifications through no fault of their own, and when they move on to another job they have no evidence to show that they have served their time.

2893.

Cllr Lewis: We need a major review of education in general. As Mr McGilly has said, some of the highest achieving grammar schools are in this area. There is a culture within education where people are moving towards academic education, and there is not enough emphasis put on the employment opportunities in business. Ninety-five per cent of the industries and businesses in this area are small. People need to be made aware that those things are possible, that they can set up their own business and be educated towards doing that.

2894.

We need to have an overall review of vocational and academic education. We are fortunate to have Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education providing that, but I find that some people end up in industry or business by accident - it was not a career choice.

2895.

People are moving out of this area into the "Celtic Tiger" economy to work, and maybe in a few years time it will be the opposite. When we are co-ordinating education, industry, business and training, it is important that we find out what needs to be done on a regional basis, and that region cannot stop at a border. The Newry and Mourne area is on the east coast corridor, and any strategy that is developed has to take in the whole region. Students are coming from Dundalk and Louth to Newry & Kilkeel Institute for Further and Higher Education. A lot of the job and training placements from the Institute - and subsequently the jobs that are acquired through the placements -are in the South, so we need co-ordination.

2896.

Cllr McCart: I was interested in the terms of reference for the inquiry, and particularly in two headings. One concerns the institutes of technology, formally the regional technical colleges (RTC), in the Republic. Living here on the border and having joint committees with bodies in Lough and Monaghan, we see the successes of the former RTC's. I am confident that the big influx of ICT and pharmaceutical industries into the Republic was largely due to the fact that hundreds of millions of pounds were ploughed into the RTCs. I am told that each college, sensibly, majored in a certain subject. Dundalk did engineering, Letterkenny did tourism, and so on.

2897.

You mentioned the German system, which I have been interested in for some time but have never had the opportunity to examine it - although I am not looking for a trip. I know that people from here have gone there and looked at it, and there seems to be a definite and profitable relationship between German industry and the equivalent of our high schools or community schools. Have you looked in depth at the German system, or is it your intention to do so?

2898.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will deal with that question, but first I will tell you that last week we had an interesting and informative session with the director of Letterkenny Institute of Technology, who highlighted the system that operates in the South of Ireland. We will be looking at that model. You have already pointed out that one of the advantages of their system is the substantial funding that was made available. That is something that we must take note of.

2899.

With regards to the Germanic model, we hope to visit Denmark, because we understand that there is a system there that may be of interest. Is that similar to the German system?

2900.

The Committee Clerk: It has been recommended because of its international recognition for dealing with under- or low-achieving pupils at school.

2901.

The Deputy Chairperson: We have no plans to visit Germany.

2902.

Cllr McCart: I was interested to hear the Deputy Chairperson say that the emphasis must be placed on funding. I am confidant that our colleges of further and higher education have been underfunded for a considerable length of time. The chairman of the college board will bear me out that one of the things that concerns those of us on the board of governors is the capping of the numbers of people who can enrol on courses, despite the fact that there is demand. Ironically, those people can apply to places like Crew or Huddersfield, and if they go there it costs the Exchequer a lot more than it would cost to take the cap off the numbers in colleges in places like Newry.

2903.

The Deputy Chairperson: We will move on to questions.

2904.

Mr Dallat: While we were waiting to become quorate, Cllr McCart gave us some interesting background on this building. It was a technical school, and in those days it was a direct responsibility of the urban council. Given the interest of Newry & Mourne District Council in this subject, has the clock turned full circle? Is there a need for elected councils to become more directly involved in the provision of further and higher education, given that an appalling number of problems have arisen in the intervening years? More than 20% of people leave school with serious problems in literacy and numeracy.

2905.

Cllr McCart: It is especially so with boys.

2906.

Mr Dallat: Given that elected representatives might be able to project lifelong learning projects better than some academics, who perhaps do not even live in the neighbourhood, I would like to hear your reaction.

2907.

Cllr McCart: My reaction is a qualified "Yes". Councils should have direct representation on the boards of colleges like ours, which they do not have at present. Both Cllr Hanna and myself are nominees of the education and library board; we are not directly appointed from the council. At the same time, I would not like the board of governors of our college, or any other, to have a majority of councillors. One needs a leavening of councillors - not a majority.

2908.

Mr Dallat: You must have similar problems in your neighbourhood to those in other parts of Northern Ireland. Educationally, the bottom 20% of the population are now very important to industry given that we have a "Celtic tiger" economy across the border and neigh­bouring towns with almost full employment.

2909.

Cllr McCart: I am on the board of an 850-pupil high school, and I am concerned about the number of pupils, especially boys, who leave without any qualifications. The industries that normally would have employed such young people years ago cannot do so now. Industry needs qualified people.

2910.

Mr Byrne: What are your views about the type of practical skills courses currently available through training centres and colleges of further education, be they in construction, engineering or ICT? Have you any views about the short-term aspect of skills training?

2911.

Secondly, how important do you think skills training is to the economic development of Newry and the wider area?

2912.

Cllr Hanna: It is vital to the economic regeneration of the area, because the first thing outside bodies do when deciding whether it would be feasible to start a business in Newry is to carry out a skills audit. Recently, we have found that there are not nearly enough people with recognised skills, and firms are moving elsewhere.

2913.

We suffer greatly from the "Celtic tiger" economy. Young people cannot get out of school quick enough because there are manual jobs across the border where they can earn unbelievable money. In the short term that is very good, but if they burn themselves out - as most people do, especially if laying blocks in the building industry - they come back without any qualifications, and they are not employable. I do not know how to address the problem. We have tried our best. I do not know how we can get them to realise that they will not always be young and strong and that they need to re-educate themselves or have some qualifications so that they can take up alternative employment.

2914.

Lifelong learning is beginning to kick in. It was a good while before people realised they needed it. They are coming back, but they are far too slow in coming back.

2915.

Cllr Lewis: It comes back to the education culture, because the 20% we are talking about are actually classed as failures. With the 11-plus system, children are being classed as failures. That is really where the problem starts. At present, unless children are going into academic education they are classed as failures, and they will accidentally fall into other jobs or industries. That has to be changed. It will be a long process and not an easy one.

2916.

Cllr Hanna made a point about lifelong learning. It is lifelong in the sense that there is going to be continual retraining. Most of us who have a job constantly need retrained. I am in a job in which I am off doing courses over and over again every year. Retraining is going on all the time. Lifelong also means that education is for life, and it is for life in a world that at the moment does not want 80% of people coming out with three or more A levels. There are no jobs for those people; they are not the types of jobs that are going to be needed in the future.

2917.

Mr Byrne: I still want to hear your views about the types of training schemes that are currently available, and which have been for the last five years. Are they too long-term or short-term? Do they have enough value-added quality?

2918.

Cllr McCart: We have a first-class, purpose-­built training centre here in Newry, which has now been taken over by the college of further education in Newry. However, I believe that training suffered because of the uncertainty that went on for four or five years as to what was going to happen to the then government training centres.

2919.

Looking at it objectively, public money was wasted due to the duplication of courses and courses being underutilised in Greenbank training centre and in the further education college. Hopefully, waste will end with more professional management of those centres.

2920.

There was not an awful lot wrong with the courses; they were probably the right length. However, if I were to make a criticism, it would be that they did not consult adequately with local industry as to what was required. I think that somebody just sat down and said "We will do this, this and this".

2921.

Ms McWilliams: Thank you for your succinct submission. You have made some very interesting proposals, which I want to tease out a little bit more. I am very taken by the idea of central co-ordination and of an agency for placements. Have you given thought to that? Do you have a paper on it? What are the problems, and what are your proposals? Are you thinking of it as regional or as central in relation to this particular area?

2922.

Mr McGilly: This issue has been flagged up through our business education partnership, and at the moment it is very much a concept. The main problem that we have in this region is the number of schools looking for placements. We have many small businesses that have difficulty finding placements. They turn people away, not because they do not see their potential but because they just do not have the capacity to take young people into their businesses. As a result, young people who are looking at a certain career option can end up having to go on a career placement elsewhere because they have to go on their placement in a certain week from their school or college.

2923.

If placements could be co-ordinated by a central agency - maybe our business education partnership, or one of the training organisations - industries could declare the sort of placements that they have, their duration and when it suits them best. It does not suit some industries to take people at certain times of the year. If there were a central database that schools could access, it would save a lot of duplication and effort, both by teachers and industry. They could go at a time when it suits them to find placements and be able to get worthwhile placements. It could also be vetted. The central organisation could do some research into the quality of placements, as opposed to just bringing a student in who maybe does not get doing what he or she is supposed to be doing.

2924.

In terms of regionalisation, we would be open to looking at spreading the net wider. The wider you spread the net, the more it may become a very onerous task, and it may not be possible to do it on a wider region basis. Perhaps it could be piloted in a district council area like Newry and Mourne, or it could be done over a number of areas. It may be too difficult, but the wider you can spread the net, the wider the range of industry that students will be able to experience. However, there is the issue of travelling, and so on, so there are constraints to it. One example is in the Dundalk region, where there is quite a strong manufacturing base for people who want to get into that field. It is a lot stronger than it is here in Newry and Mourne.

2925.

Ms McWilliams: We are taking evidence from business education partnerships, and that is clearly one thing that we may take up with them. I am taken by the fact that you are attempting to work not just on a regional basis but with the impact of the "Celtic tiger".

2926.

To follow on from what you were asking, you have had some experience with teachers into industry, and as a result you can offer a lot of advice on that because you were piloted. I am very concerned to hear you say that resources are running out, and that is something that we will have to mark up. I would like to hear from you on the teacher into industry experience. Would you say that it is a positive experience and that it should be supported?

2927.

We have already taken evidence from industrialists, and people who operate in the field of business, highlighting their concerns about the lack of advice given to young people about their careers. Hospitality and other industries have made that point. In the light of a television programme this week about what the people in the restaurants think of the people in the training colleges, and vice versa, it seems that it would be a very useful thing for exchanges to take place between them. What did you mean when you said you had some concerns?

2928.

I will finish with the issue that you raised, Cllr Hanna, about small employers facing the crisis of releasing young people. Would you support the idea of a levy? It may not work for small employers because they would argue that they have not sufficient funds, but there has been a proposal about an employer's levy for training purposes. That may be in relation to the very large employers. It would be a central fund, which would be used for training in relation to all of these issues. What are your views on that?

2929.

Mr McGilly: The initiative was piloted through the Business Education Partnership, and the council were part-funders of that scheme. We had set aside a pot of money to allow a number of teachers to go on placement. That money was largely used to pay for cover while they were out on placement. From our perspective, at a local level, there is only a certain amount we can do.

2930.

Ms McWilliams: Who actually set aside the money?

2931.

Mr McGilly: The Business Education Partnership had set it aside from the funding it received from different partners to run this programme. The demand from teachers to go into placement far exceeded the resources we had to enable it to happen. I was hinting at looking at some way of mainstreaming this where maybe the education board or central Government would allocate a budget for this sort of activity throughout the larger region, and not just throughout each region.

2932.

Cllr Williamson: I wish to make a comment as someone who was through this system, which Cllr Lewis referred to. I was educated at one of those colleges, and I am very proud of it, but I was not going to be a clergyman, doctor or a lawyer. I did very well, and I later became a very small businessman, though I am partly retired now.

2933.

Levies kill small businesses. VAT, and such like, are crippling small businesses. Be very careful because in this area, in particular, there is a great entrepreneurial base. For God's sake, do not kill it. In the great United States, most businesses are small businesses. Small businesses want to play their part, so try not to cripple them with levies.

2934.

The Deputy Chairperson: That is a good point.

2935.

Mrs Carson: Your presentation was very interesting and like a rerun of other presentations we have had from councils and from industry. We are hearing the same message being hammered home each time - that there is a problem with the link between the education system and training. The line is not drawn at 11-plus; it goes back to the family.

2936.

Parents have expectations for their children, and it is not always industry or manual work that is the problem. Parents may want to see their children going into "something nice" - to work in jobs where they do not get their hands dirty. There is a large education gap with both parents and children. A lot of the failure ethos comes from the failure of parents to be sensible; they can promote the sense of failure.

2937.

There is a difference between your presentation and the general issues that we were given on this sheet. You have a very good business and school partnership, but you have said that the secondary and grammar school sector does not provide training for industry. Part of the problem is that there is not a good linkage with careers teachers. They should provide a strong link between industry and schools. What is happening in this area?

2938.

We have found in other places that if there are strong links with schools and industries - such as where there are school visits and strong individual links - there is a better liaison between the two areas. What can you do in Newry through enterprise development, or through the council itself, with the money available to promote links with industry? Could the councils do more?

2939.

Mr McGilly: As a local authority involved in economic development, it is incumbent upon us to look at links between industry and schools. The business education partnership was the pilot initiative here. It was the first attempt to try to bring it all together. We have started to tackle a lot of the issues through that partnership, but we have flagged up a lot more that needs to be done. That is where the challenge lies ahead, and the council recognises that need. In the future, as we develop our next round of economic action plans, we will see how we use our resources to work in partnership with other bodies to strengthen the links between industry and education.

2940.

We have held some very successful events such as a cross-border one-stop careers fair where all businesses came to this region and showcased themselves. All the schools from the area, from fourth form upwards, came to the fair to speak with industrialists from the area. Such initiatives have started to highlight the raft of careers that are available to young people in the area and the sort of roles that young people can play in industry. They have also highlighted that one can succeed via a non-academic route. Those initiatives need to continue, and the council will support them in the future. We see the benefit, but we know that we are only scratching the surface.

2941.

Over the past two or three years with the partnership, we have started to bond together the vital links between secondary schools, colleges of further and higher education and businesses. The commitment and dynamic is there to move that forward and tackle these issues. We need support at a regional level to showcase how young people can move into industry, have successful careers and also start their own businesses.

2942.

We have one of the best small businesses in our area. I know a young man who was first in his year in the exams for the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland, and when he qualified set up his own technology business, which is unrelated to accountancy. That shows how somebody who was geared for a profession, and who probably would have been exceptional in that profession, moved into another sector. Those are the sorts of cases that we need to showcase and highlight to young people.

2943.

Mrs Carson: Do teachers pick what they want to do, or where they want to go? Do they pick the places that are advantageous for those firms that want to train young people when they leave school? How do you work out whether the placements are advantageous for local industries?

2944.

Mr McGilly: As the initiative was a pilot, it has been in demand. We have had to match as best as we could with those industries that were prepared to take teachers on placement. Our approach could be more selective as the initiative grows and develops and as we get more industries on board. The initiative currently involves those industries that were prepared to take placements and those teachers who were prepared to go. The main aim was to show teachers and industry how the other side lives. Teachers tend to work by a certain style and, likewise, it is important that industry learns more about the education system. That was the purpose of the initiative. Our approach will become more focused as we proceed.

2945.

Mr Beggs: When you talk about industry, are you referring to manufacturing and service, or jobs generally? There is also a dilemma about local access to courses and the number of courses that can be provided. Lauded institutes of technology are much more geographically spread in the Republic of Ireland and are larger than our colleges in Northern Ireland.

2946.

I am interested in your view of the current situation of further education in the Newry and Kilkeel area. Is the satellite system working OK, with a larger overall college that provides higher-level courses? What courses are provided at the satellites? There is the access to those colleges and a number of courses that are provided. There are two diverging views on the matter.

2947.

Finally, who provided the money for educational partnerships? I am interested to know what all the sources of funding were. Was the experience of teachers deemed to be appropriate for Baker Days? Was any recognition or incentive given to teachers to become involved? What benefits did teachers and their students determine had arisen from the scheme?

2948.

Cllr McCart: We are ahead of the posse on lifelong learning in the community. We have just had a special bus built that has 14 computers, which will go out to community centres. We are operating in maybe up to 20 outlets. A lot of them are outside the Newry and Mourne area, and some of those are across the border. We have pioneered that initiative. Our record in that area would stand up.

2949.

I agree with the idea of having one big super college in Newry. While a town such as Newry needs a super college, you must not forget to also provide facilities in places such as Hilltown and Attical. We have an excellent working arrangement with many community associations for which we provide courses as required.

2950.

Cllr Hanna: We do not only deliver in our own premises. If Aircraft Furnishings - now known as BE Aerospace Seating Products Group (UK) Ltd - in Kilkeel needed training for its workforce, we would provide that on site. We would provide that service for anybody who demands it. We are very flexible; if they tell us what they want, we will meet their needs.

2951.

Cllr McCart: That was for a workforce of 300.

2952.

Mr Beggs: Are you satisfied with the size of the college? Who funds the business educational partner­ships, and what benefits have resulted from it?

2953.

Cllr McCart: I hope that the incoming councils are given more powers to spend on economic develop­ment. How much are we currently allowed to spend?

2954.

Mr McGilly: Five pence.

2955.

Cllr McCart: That is not adequate. However, I appreciate that nothing can be done in the current year because the rate has been struck. I suggest that we should improve that figure, because that money is well spent by the councils.

2956.

Mr McGilly: The funding for the business education partnership comes via the council and the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership initiative. Also local funding was secured through the district partnership to support the initiative.

2957.

The teacher placements which you referred to were where careers teachers went into industry to learn more about some of the career options that they were advising young people on - for example, finding out what exactly a graphic designer does. They were getting hands-on experience to make them more able to relate closely to how industry works and the pressures and constraints that people in industry face. Teachers would admit that they are not aware of what is going on in industry because they have worked in the confines of schools for so many years. Senior managers admit that they do not know what goes on in education. We need to bridge that gap.

2958.

Cllr Hanna: In September, we moved into the training centre, which at that time was not very well used. We are now faced with the problem of building an extension. That shows that there is a demand if there is proper marketing and relevant courses available. The only two areas that we are having a problem recruiting for are steel construction and motor mechanics.

2959.

The Deputy Chairperson: I must bring this session to a close. Thank you for your interesting contribution and written submission and also for the use of the facilities and for your hospitality. Please convey our thanks to Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education for its written submission.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 17 May 2001

Members present:

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Ms McWilliams

Witnesses:

Mr S Bannon                        ) Forfás

Mr L O'Raghallaigh                        )

2960.

The Deputy Chairperson: Good afternoon. I welcome you here today. We are looking forward to hearing what we can learn from the Forfás experience.

2961.

Mr Bannon: It is a privilege to address the Committee. I manage the Trade, Skills and EU Policy Department of Forfás. Lorcan O'Raghallaigh works with me, and his work is concentrated on the skills awareness campaign. Unfortunately, our chairman, Dr Danny O'Hare, had to go on a World Bank mission to Sri Lanka at short notice. He asked us to convey his apologies.

2962.

Forfás is the National Policy and Advisory Board for Enterprise, Trade, Science, Technology and Innovation. It seeks to co-ordinate the policies in a variety of economic development areas throughout the state. Its basic functions are to advise the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on matters relating to the development of industry in the state, to advise and co-ordinate bodies such as the Investment and Development Agency (IDA Ireland), Enterprise Ireland, Foras Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS) and Shannon Development and to co-ordinate their work.

2963.

Forfás encourages the development of industry, technology and trade in the state and the establishment and development in the state of industrial undertakings from outside the state. It has those mandates. It seeks to co-ordinate rather than to manage the functions of the economic development agencies which reside in the state. The management of the state development organisations still rests with the parent Department. As part of its interpretation of that role, Forfás also manages three separate national committees - the National Competitiveness Council, the Irish Council for Science, Technology and Innovation and the Expert Group on Future Skills Needs. I will concentrate on the latter today.

2964.

The Expert Group on Future Skills Needs is part of a trinity of forums which was established in 1997 under the Business and Education Partnership. That trinity consisted of the Skills Implementation Group, the Business, Education and Training Forum and the Expert Group on Future Skills Needs. The objectives were complementary, in that the Expert Group on Future Skills Needs was appointed by the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Minister of Education and Science.

2965.

Its remit was to research and advise on issues associated with labour market fluctuations and labour market needs in the Irish economy, and also to advise the Ministers on what steps to take to address those needs. It consists of members from each of the three social partners. There are representatives from the business organisations - the Irish Business Employers Confederation (IBEC), the small firms associations and other such organisations - along with those from the education establishments, the Department of Education, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and the trade unions.

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