COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

2806.

In England, Scotland and Wales there are examples of initiatives that have worked. One of these is SECT, which is mainstream and falls within the remit of the Department of Trade and Industry. There have been advances, and although they have been slow, they have started to redress the balance by increasing the number of women who participate in non-traditional skill training and employment.

2807.

What is the Women's TEC doing about this? The Construction Industry Training Board (CITB) is currently working in partnership with the Women's TEC to attract women into the construction industry, particularly where there are skills shortages, for example, in the wet trades of bricklaying, plastering, painting, decorating and tiling. Incidentally, only three per cent of the workforce in the construction industry is female. We are currently training a group of women in the North West Institute of Further and Higher Education who will progress to a construction course in September 2001. We are also exploring partnerships with Brookfield Business School in the Brookfield Mill complex and the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education (BIFHE) to attract women into non-traditional skills training and to support them through the traditional range of obstacles that still prevent women from getting involved in non-traditional training. Those obstacles are attitudes such as sexism. Lack of childcare is also an obstacle. We are currently piloting a project called "Girl Power" which will operate in the summer months. That is aimed at 15 to 16-year old girls, and offers them a range of non-traditional skills and taster courses to encourage them to change their career choice when they return to school in September.

2808.

What can the Committee do? It can ensure the mainstreaming of the gender dimension of economic development through consultation and by creating a gender balance in the membership of policy-making bodies. It can also ensure that full weight is given to the European requirement that national action plans for employment include special attention and special measures to promote gender equality in employment. The Committee can ensure that women benefit equally - in fact proportionately - from all training programmes and from the structural funds, and it can ensure that official statistics give a true picture of women's and men's different experiences of employment, non-­employment and training.

2809.

Mr Beggs: My question may be slightly controversial. I understand that in the further education sector there is a clear majority of females by comparison to males. Why then does additional money have to be targeted at getting female students into the further-­education sector?

2810.

Ms Poots: As Ms McVicker said, the focus is on what type of training course people are taking part in at the further education colleges. The proportion of females in science, engineering and construction is very low; and that is probably outweighed by high levels in areas such as child care, hairdressing, administration, et cetera. As a result of occupational segregation from school level onward, there are segregated industries in which the potential growth of the female labour force in emerging industries is untapped. It will be a loss to the economic development of Northern Irish society if we cannot tap that potential.

2811.

The main point, aside from the desire to create a more equal society, is that there are large wage differentials between those in industrial jobs and the service industries in which women work. In addition, the career opportunities in each are extremely different. That is why those wage differentials between women and men have not changed remarkably, even since the introduction of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. Northern Ireland has a growing economy, particularly in regard to the technology industries. Given that there is a lack of women entering into those types of employment, we fear that the wage differentials between men and women could actually widen. That would be an extreme indictment on our society.

2812.

Mr Beggs: Do you acknowledge that the most important time to address the issue is at school level? Do you accept that career choices made at school would lead students into the further training and employment that create those opportunities? You say that although there are more females in the further and higher education sector, they are studying the wrong courses. That point could be turned round - it could be said that there should be special investment to encourage men to be nurses or hairdressers. Would you also advocate that?

2813.

Ms Poots: I am not saying that. There should be a balance. Figures relating to the input in training in the past reveal that it is costly to train people for the occupations that we are focusing on, especially the higher levels of information technology. In the 20 or 30 years after their establishment, Northern Ireland's Government training centres had 99% male occupancy. We are asking for some redress now, because that constituted a very long period of unequal funding for men's training.

2814.

The Women's TEC works in areas of disadvantage. We target women who are unemployed, in low-paid jobs or in a poverty trap. In our experience, unemployed men in disadvantaged areas can often go out, get a trade and make something of themselves; women have not had the same opportunities and we would like to see a change in that.

2815.

Mr Beggs: Briefly, can you explain the advantages of having a separate organisation, rather than carrying out the training in a further education college?

2816.

Ms Poots: The Women's TEC ran a women- only course in conjunction with a college, and that was funded by the European NOW (New Opportunities for Women) programme. While it was reasonably successful, there were many obstacles. We are not saying that training within colleges cannot work and we are quite prepared to use the Women's TEC as a broker to get courses set up, work in partnership with colleges, training centres and any other institution that is prepared to focus on women's training in these fields. That is one of the ways in which we envisage the Women's TEC progressing. We plan to develop partnerships with existing resources, thereby maximising their use.

2817.

The Deputy Chairperson: Ms McVicker said that you want to set up the first women's training centre. This would segregate females from trainees in the centres that already exist however you will be proposing that women have equal opportunities to the male workforce. In the real world, men and women have got to work together, so why can they not train together?

2818.

Ms Poots: The bottom line is that this has not worked. In the past, the Training and Employment Agency had a number of initiatives to try and mainstream women into existing provision. It has admitted to us that the schemes were not as successful as they would have liked.

2819.

We must start somewhere, and one of my colleagues will perhaps talk about the range of barriers. We understand that when someone is training they should not be isolated, therefore we place them in industry. Some industries understand our needs and they have been very receptive to us. Many are American or from other countries where strong equal opportunities policies are in place. We put women into placements where they are supported. Women's TEC will, hopefully, continue to carry out some of the training in its training centre, but we would like to develop partnerships across Northern Ireland, because we can not simply remain Belfast-based. People will be trained in a mixed environment, but they will be supported by an organisation that appreciates their needs. They will not be left to make their own way.

2820.

Ms Gadd: Ultimately, we would like to do ourselves out of a job, having become no longer necessary. In the beginning, there is a need for facilities for women only to develop a culture in which new role models are created, and where women feel comfortable enough with their social skills as well as with their trade, to be able to enter a male domain. For example, in a factory where the majority of the staff is male, the women's toilet is usually two and a half miles from where they are working. At present young women and school-leavers do not regard the non-traditional occupations as their first, second or even third choice. We feel that if we are successful, we will not be needed as a women-only facility in the future.

2821.

The Deputy Chairperson: It is a confidence- building measure.

2822.

Mrs Carson: You are starting at the top. We should be starting at the bottom, in primary schools, and changing attitudes throughout the educational system.

2823.

Your previous research revealed that women need part-time morning and evening courses. Do you think that our present educational system is flexible enough to meet the needs of women who want to return to work?

2824.

Ms Poots: No. There are many initiatives such as New Deal, but there are lots of obstacles to implementing those. Many of the trades are ring-fenced; certain criteria must be fulfilled before a qualification can be obtained in that trade.

2825.

Some of the organisations that control training in these fields have not offered enough flexibility through part-time training courses that run over an extended period. The family-friendly policy has not yet reached the training world. Years ago, you could do part-time training, but under the Jobskills programme, training could only be done on a full-time basis. Now we have the New Deal, and the Women's TEC does not find itself able to use that programme as a source for its trainees.

2826.

Mrs Carson: I know that Moy Park, for example, has scheduled some of its work shifts to accommodate females who wish to return to employment. Are firms in other urban areas not doing the same? Are you not happy with what is being done within the industry?

2827.

Ms McVicker: I have had meetings with Shorts-Bombardier, and our courses include a visit to one of its sites at either Dunmurry or Mallusk. Shorts-Bombardier has told us that they would like to employ about 100 women at one time to ensure that the majority of them stay on, but at present they are either unable or unwilling to adopt any family-friendly policies.

2828.

They recognise the difficulties for women travelling to their factories because of where they are located, but they are not prepared to do anything about that. They appreciate that women are the carers, and that some have to collect their kids from school, but they are not prepared to change the working schedules.

2829.

They want to meet their objectives and come onboard by implementing equality impact assessments, but they are not prepared to make any changes to overcome the obstacles which are preventing women from getting back into employment.

2830.

Mrs Nelis: What you are doing is great, and I congratulate you. I can understand why you want to set up a training centre for women.

2831.

The key need is choice. Can you imagine the benefits of going into a Training and Employment office as a school leaver and being given the opportunity to expand your range of skills beyond those that are usually offered to women, such as hairdressing and nursing. There should be a place where women can train to be an engineer or a bricklayer, or any such skills, giving them the confidence needed to enter those fields. The system that you and I know is still organised on the basis of traditional structures. You are challenging that, but you are creating choice, and that is important.

2832.

There is a skills shortage, and there will not be enough skilled males to fill the shortages therefore women need to be trained.

2833.

Self-sufficiency is important to our dignity, and women who choose to live on their own need to acquire a good deal of skills. The North West Institute has a joinery course as part of which around 19 women made a coffee table. Such accomplishments give people great confidence. We cannot all depend on our partners or husbands to carry out home repairs. I am honoured and pleased that you are contributing to our inquiry.

2834.

How supportive is the social security system? This training is innovative and creative, therefore what barriers could the Social Security Agency unlock? How do you overcome those obstacles within that system?

2835.

Ms Poots: I am sure that this Committee has faced the same problem before. It is a big issue for women in the context of New Deal. The roles of social security and training agencies have overlapped. This takes place at a higher level.

2836.

I know that there are difficulties in changing the legislation to allow people to train for longer hours. Our main clientele are women on income support, not Jobseekers Allowance, so this creates another series of obstacles for us. The rules for those on income support, and who wish to train, are different from those which apply to people on Jobseekers Allowance. We tend to be restricted by those rules no matter which way we go.

2837.

If we are to train Northern Ireland's unemployed population to meet the demands of the economy, we will need to create flexibility within the social security system to allow people to dip their feet in the water, and that is what we are doing in regard to unemployed women. We are telling women to use their potential, start a course, but without making a full commitment immediately. At the minute there is not enough flexibility. People can either give up their benefits and train or continue to receive state support.

2838.

Mrs Nelis: There is a New Deal programme for women.

2839.

Ms Poots: I have been working for a long time in community development in areas of high unemploy­ment in Belfast, but I do not know any women who have taken part in New Deal training.

2840.

Ms McVicker: If women aged over 25 want to do an NVQ Level 2 in electronic engineering, for example, they would only be eligible to remain within the New Deal programme for six months, even though it takes longer than that to complete such a course. New Deal would not, therefore, be appropriate for that type training.

2841.

Ms McWilliams: I have visited the project so I know something about it. It is good to see that some of your trainees have already graduated from the programme, and we would be interested to hear about what they are doing now. Would it be possible to get a submission and case studies relating to some of the problems concerning New Deal, so that we could include those in our inquiry?

2842.

The Deputy Chairperson: That would be useful.

2843.

Ms McWilliams: Where do you go from here? You have a track record, you are up and running, some of you are - I assume - in a voluntary committee, but some of you are working inside the Women's TEC project. What type of support would you need to enable you to sustain what you have already achieved? Are you in danger of not being able to continue? The Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) would be one of your support mechanisms, and you have mentioned Europe and the structural funds. This inquiry is looking to the future, and we would like to know what proposals you have. Are you unique or are you running parallel with any other organisation? I assume that you are not duplicating your activities. Have you had any negative responses from the colleges, or are they supportive of what you are doing? Where did your need come from and will the colleges support you in the future. We are all concerned about the availability of European funding. Ms Poots mentioned in her introduction the issue of mainstreaming. Could you elaborate on this?

2844.

Ms Poots: At present our main support is through National Lottery funds, even though that body is not supposed to be interested in vocational training. We received small amounts of money through the Peace programme, and that is almost spent. So far, we have received £60,000 from the T&EA to train 10 women in systems management, and that is our only source of funding. None of that funding is main­streamed. We are in a gap period, and we will have run out of National Lottery funding by the end of the year. We need to be building relationships and making plans for the future with industry and colleges, but it is difficult to look to the future because funds are limited.

2845.

We would like to develop real working partnerships, because the Women's TEC cannot crack this nut of operational segregation, opportunity and choice by itself, but that has not been forthcoming. There is a serious problem and there are opportunities for the issues to be addressed jointly. There are many programmes, including the new Peace programme and the transitional funds, that are applicable to the work of the Women's TEC. There is a lot of emphasis on information technology, economy, business start-up and the social economy. The Women's TEC is interested in becoming involved in all those areas, but before we can think strategically there will need to be a willing­ness and a commitment from the Department to work with us and come up with projects that will match the needs of women.

2846.

We have found it very difficult to get statistical information from any Government Department, because a good deal of it is not kept, and even if it is, we simply cannot reach it. We need to know, for example, exactly what areas we should be focusing courses on - where industry is emerging and where the gaps are. We need to work in partnership, and that is what we have come to say to the Committee today. It is not simply a question of money; it is a matter of working in collaboration. Our group has been together for seven years and we could have advanced much further if there had been collaboration.

2847.

Ms McVicker: To our knowledge there is no organ­isation like ours in Northern Ireland. The Craig­avon-­based organisation, Women into Trades and Non Traditional Occupations (WITANTO), was funded by the Department of Education, but it has folded because of a lack of funding. It focused on schools and careers departments, through which it tried to encourage young girls to make career choices at an early age. There is a belief that once girls reach the age of 14 it is too late to get them involved with non-traditional skills training.

2848.

We do not have our own training centre so we avail of the traditional training centres such as those at Springvale Training Ltd, BIFHE and IMPACT training.

2849.

The obstacles still exist. Women are still not getting involved in training, despite the introduction of equality legislation. That is because there is no childcare provision in those colleges. Therefore, although we provide training in the centres we have to run our own crèches. The purpose of actually having our own centre would be so that we could provide training and childcare provision too.

2850.

Nobody else is doing what we do so we are not duplicating the work of anybody else. The work that we do, through the initiatives and projects that we undertake, does actually work in Scotland and England. Schemes there are funded through local authorities and European funding and so on, and they have made an impact. There are organisations such as Women in Science, Engineering and Technology (SET), Let's Train Women in Science and Technology (Let's Twist) and co-operative solutions, all of which we can learn from.

2851.

Ms Poots: There is a network organisation in England called London Women and Manual Trades. We tried to become members and get information from them, however, the situation in Northern Ireland is very different and there needs to be an organisation in Northern Ireland that reflects our specific needs. For example, local authorities fund a lot of those projects. Local authorities here are not going to be able to provide funding - at least not to the same level. There should be an organisation through which people from any part of Northern Ireland - whether they come from Strabane or Enniskillen - can seek advice. That is one of the things that we hope to achieve with our organisation.

2852.

Mr Byrne: I welcome you, and I understand what you are saying. In the past, very few females would drive a bus or a lorry. Thankfully, that is beginning to change. I still have not seen a lady driving, for example, a forklift truck.

2853.

I want to ask Ms Crickard what barriers, if any, she has experienced in her attempt to enter a craft in the construction industry? How do we begin to attack the cultural barrier? Finally, has any analysis or study been made of the barriers of that kind in Northern Ireland?

2854.

Ms Crickard: When I trained in BIFHE, I was the only woman on the course. I was pregnant in the first year, and in the second year I had a newborn baby. The college did accommodate me, but I felt like I was a special case and that was why I was being allowed to do certain things. You had to be very committed to the course. It was full of young fellas and all the tutors were male. There was a lack of understanding of the needs of women, much less a pregnant woman.

2855.

No employer would have taken you seriously unless you had the Advanced Craft Certificate in Carpentry and Joinery. I went into self-employment, and I now take trainees on placement from BIFHE; those students are all young men. No matter what happens with the courses and the set-up in BIFHE, it will be a long time before there are any female tutors or positive role models there for young women. That nurturing has to happen now to create a balance.

2856.

Ms Gadd: The way to change the culture is to develop a group of very strong and thick-skinned women who are prepared to go in and challenge the culture of male domination. To pick up on Mrs Carson's point, young children, when they are at school, will only see women doing jobs other than teaching when, for example, the school joiner is a woman. Only then will we create the sense that this type of job is OK and something that they can aspire to.

2857.

We must build up a positive workforce of women, who are doing those jobs, and who are prepared to stand up as representatives. I was at a careers convention at an all-girl's school. The organisers wanted to include a cross-section of careers, but in order to get women from non-traditional trades, they had to fly them over from England and Wales. They could not get any local trade representatives who had the confidence to go and talk to the girls. Initially, specialist provision is difficult.

2858.

Ms Poots: Another concern is the lack of female participation at high levels in the new technologies, IT in particular. Many women are trained in Computer Literacy and Information Technology (CLAIT) Stage I and Integrated Business Technology (IBT) Stage 2, as well as other business administration related qualifications at operator level.

2859.

Ms Poots: It is at the higher level that there is money, jobs and drive at present, and the number of women in these jobs is actually falling.

2860.

Mr Byrne: This is in software engineering?

2861.

Ms Poots: Yes, and also in management, solutions development and related areas. The number of women participating has fallen, as has the number of university graduates in these subjects, yet the Northern Ireland economy needs these people. It is a very worrying trend. It is not just about picking up a hammer or trowel, it is also about sitting in front of a computer.

2862.

Mr Dallat: I know this debate extends beyond the argument on gender balance. What is your relationship with the Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA)? I ask because I have enormous respect for that organisation, and I would like to know if you have a partnership with them. How do you replicate the good work that you do in Belfast in the rest of the country? Women in Northern Ireland - and rural women, in particular - do not seem to have fared well over the last 30 years. That brings me to the targeting social need (TSN) aspect, which is as important as gender balance. So many women have lost out through 30 years of political instability. Is there a role for your organisation in ensuring that the scare resources that we have are targeted across Northern Ireland so that everyone can be released from the injustices of the past that were not their own fault?

2863.

Ms McVicker: We work closely with EGSA. All our literature is sent to them, and we have had various meetings with them. Women who go to EGSA for career guidance, or to ask about training opportunities, can avail of our leaflets and information. Women have enrolled in our courses through EGSA. On the question of replication throughout the country, it is important to look again at role models. The capacity of the Women's TEC is derived from an apprenticeship project, which was funded through Peace I, via the Training for Women Network (TWN). Over a two-year period, this project fast-tracked six women - two each in bench joinery, electronic engineering and systems management.

2864.

Those six women are now our trainers and are very positive role models. That has encouraged many women to dip a toe in the water, as Ms Poots said, and find out what it is like to do joinery, electronics, electrical work, et cetera.

2865.

The Women's TEC does not receive mainstream funding, therefore our work is confined to Greater Belfast, although we have worked with the Newry and Mourne women's network. That involves replicating the apprenticeship scheme with a view to extending the scope of the Women's TEC to cover different parts of Northern Ireland where there is a need for such provision.

2866.

The training will depend on the skills shortages and the particular needs of different areas. For instance, in Newry there might be a need for farming skills or electronics. We hope that through Peace II and the transitional programme we will be able to replicate the apprenticeship scheme in the Newry and Mourne area.

2867.

Ms Gadd: We still believe, however, that this sort of project should receive mainstream funding. As members of the board, we have to spend most of our time finding ways of getting funding to continue, rather than looking at ways to further what we are doing. It is a big equality issue for young girls.

2868.

Mr Dallat: I am very conscious that the Rochdale weavers in 1844 played a major part in projecting the role of women. That was a long time ago, but I have no doubt that this needs to be done again.

2869.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much for the presentation. I know that members are anxious to ask further questions, but time has run out. We have really appreciated the female perspective in our inquiry. It has been very useful, and you have provided us with some thought-provoking material.

2870.

Some of the members have mentioned the problem of our cultural mindset, and that needs to be overcome. There also needs to be more flexibility and family-­friendly policies. If we were able to crack those three elements, as well as putting a bit of funding in place, you would be well on your way. We know that as representatives of the female population, you have a very valid contribution to make to the economy and to industry, and we wish you well with your work. Thank you very much.

2871.

Ms Poots: Thank you very much. We will send you the information relating to the New Deal programme. Should anybody think of any other questions they want to ask, they may write to us, and we will be happy to write back.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 17 May 2001

Members present:

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Ms McWilliams

Witnesses:

Cllr I Hanna                        )

Cllr B Lewis                        ) Newry & Mourne District Council

Cllr J McCart                        )

Cllr A Williamson                        )

Mr J McGilly                        ) Enterprise Development Officer

2872.

The Deputy Chairperson: I thank the Chairman and members of Newry & Mourne District Council for facilitating this hearing today and for the warm welcome and hospitality. We look forward to hearing the Newry & Mourne perspective. Indeed, Newry & Mourne Council has a very valuable contribution to make to the overall subject matter of our investigation. I understand that the presentation is going to be made by Mr McGilly, and then there will be a period for questions.

2873.

Mr McGilly: I have circulated two papers to each of the Members here today. The first is a copy of some of the points that I am going to touch on, and the other goes into some more detail on the issues that I raise. No doubt they will be teased out in the discussion as we go along. I will just give a brief overview of the Newry & Mourne area and then address what we feel are some of the main issues in relation to education and industry.

2874.

Firstly the Newry and Mourne area has a population of 86,000. The region is home to 12 secondary schools, and four of the top grammar schools in the north of Ireland are housed within this area. It also has one of the most progressive colleges of further and higher education in Northern Ireland - Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education, which is an associate member of the University of Ulster.

2875.

The college has somewhere in the region of 13,000 full-time and part-time students, and a teaching staff of about 1,400. It offers a range of courses from vocational and non-vocational through to degree level courses via its association with the University of Ulster. Probably from today's perspective one of the most interesting areas is foundation degrees. This focuses on innovation-based subjects such as networking and ICT technology, the role that industry plays in the design of those courses and accreditation via the University of Ulster.

2876.

The area is also home to a number of training organisations, such as Newry & Mourne Enterprise Agency, Southern Group Enterprises, Southern ITeC and Clanrye Employment & Training Services. They offer a range of vocational training to individuals and organisations. Those organisations are becoming increasingly client-driven in their delivery of training.

2877.

In that area, we have established the Newry & Mourne Business Education Partnership which is a partnership between the local council, the business sector and the education sector, right through from secondary schools to further and higher education. Through that partnership we have begun to tackle a number of the issues that will be highlighted later on, but it has also flagged up some issues that need further attention in the months and years ahead.

2878.

The strong small business culture is a prominent feature of the area. Of the 2,100 businesses in the region, some 95% are classified as small businesses or micro-enterprises. Another feature of the region is a strong entrepreneurial culture. Under the new business start programme, of which Newry & Mourne District Council is a key funder, the region can boast one of the highest rates of business start in the North of Ireland.

2879.

I will move on to some of the core issues in education, training and industry. One feature of our economy is still the reliance on the textile and manufacturing industry, which can be classified as the traditional industries. Industry will move further towards the modern sector and areas such as information communication technology (ICT) and telecommunications. Industry and education must work hard to bridge the skills gaps that that generates.

2880.

Another area of great importance is the linkage between Government, education, industry and training. 'Strategy 2010' has been a key document in mapping out the future of Northern Ireland over the next 10 years, and it sets a vision. Our challenge is to liaise with Government, the education sector and industry to form a partnership that helps to realise that vision.

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