COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

2734.

Mr Dallat: As a former teacher with the County Donegal Vocational Education Committee, albeit not in Letterkenny but Carndonagh, I am more than happy to see people from the area. You placed great emphasis on the need to match skills with industry. While it may not be your direct responsibility, I should like to hear your views on what may happen in the future as the population declines. The bottom 20% of the population in Northern Ireland has serious literacy and numeracy problems. How do you address the needs of those people in a way that will cater for the needs of industry, which only recently realised they are valuable and intelligent human beings who may only be in their forties? In the Republic the school leaving age only went up from 14 years of age in the mid seventies. Are those people included in your planning?

2735.

Mr Hannigan: Demographics were considered across the whole sector. What you said about matching the skill needs to the economy is correct. Each college has employed an access officer, funded by the Department of Education and Science, to make it possible for those people to return to mainstream education or to match training programmes to them.

2736.

There are two real parts to the job. One is to look at the retention of existing students, and the other is to look for what are termed "non-standard applicants" - people who have not traditionally been involved in education. Our access officer was appointed recently, but because of the recent problems with Fruit of the Loom, Donegal is probably one of the most analysed counties in the country. The Donegal Employment Initiative Taskforce originated from the Fruit of the Loom job losses to try to deal with the problems of the people made redundant. Deciding how to deal with that is a consortium approach between other training agencies such as Foras Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS) and ourselves. The access officer's role is to break down any invisible barriers, getting people back onto programmes and tailoring programmes to their needs. That is what we are working towards at the moment.

2737.

We found that, while the institute might have a certain approach to try and attract people, they came across other major obstacles. When dealing with the people from Fruit of the Loom, we found that it was not the case that they did not want to join a programme. They were concerned about the childcare situation, what transport problems were involved and whether they would lose their social welfare benefits if they joined the programme before a certain date. All those obstacles were there, and it became apparent when they came to look at the options that, while there was no obstacle to getting on a programme, there were obstacles between stepping from one to the other. The access officer's job is to identify the obstacles and either eradicate or find a way round them, making it easier for people to come back to education. That is where many of the issues are currently arising, and they must be sorted out.

2738.

It is important to identify problems and make it as easy as possible to get people back onto programmes or into mainstream education. I did not mention it in the presentation, but new 18-month skill-shortage pro­grammes have been run nationally over the last three years. People spend six months in college, six months on work experience and then a further six months in college. The programmes are aimed at bringing people back to education and training them to be industry-­ready technicians.

2739.

In our experience, the majority of people who have taken part in the programme have been in their mid twenties and early thirties. They have had other experiences but are now deciding that they want to change and do something different. The experience of the college has been positive, for those who are returning to education have found themselves displaced from other jobs. They are finding that, once back in education, they are not happy simply to have done the 18 months; they want to go further, and they have recognised that they can. In direct answer to your question, the problem is first to get rid of the barriers that stop people getting as far as your front door and then make it as simple as you can to facilitate them when they are in college.

2740.

Mr Byrne: I should like to thank Mr Hannigan and Mr O'Herlihy for their presentation. We obviously also have colleges of further education, but what is the unique difference in institutes of technology that helps promote local economic development? What sort of formal relationships does an institute of technology have with local industry and such authorities as the County Council?

2741.

My second point concerns the type of course. I know you have science, engineering and business. Who determines the content of those courses? Is it the institute of technology itself or are there national standards?

2742.

Mr O'Herlihy: I shall break it down into the further-education colleges and us. I have been working in Letterkenny Institute of Technology for 27 of the 30 years it has been there. Our biggest difficulty in the beginning was establishing credibility. That was not successfully established until we were a degree-­awarding institution. Thereafter, when people came in on the first day, they knew that, if they applied themselves, they could finish with a degree as good as that which they could get anywhere else. It did not matter to them if it took them a year or 18 months longer than the brighter ones who went straight to university on day one, for they got where they wanted, and that was fairly important. I suggest that if you are not a full third-level institution you do not enjoy credibility.

2743.

The second point is about the links. For example, we have a business advisory council drawn from a cross-section of the business community in our region. If we wish to undertake an initiative, whether it is a formal course or a review of an existing option, we use it as a sounding board to advise us. We work with the formal structure of advisory groups. Additionally, we are very actively involved in such groups as the Chamber of Commerce and Industry and the Irish Business and Employers' Confederation (IBEC), and we use existing networks to ensure we are attuned to what they say. The local authority - in our case Donegal County Council - is represented on our governing body, and we are involved in their advisory group. We meet on a regular basis to review both its agenda and our own.

2744.

Mr Hannigan: Currently the accreditation is from the National Council for Educational Awards (NCEA). The college itself develops programmes and might identify a particular niche it wishes to investigate. For example, we have recently had a new degree approved in fire technology, which we identified as being a niche area not covered by anyone else. There are opportunities in it, and we have had it approved by the NCEA. The proposal is brought through the Institute's academic council and forwarded to the NCEA. It will send down a validating body - a representative group of academics and industry figures - to go through the course with staff and make a decision on whether they should accept it, reject it, or send us back to do some more work. That is the general approval process.

2745.

We are going through a major change, and I must say that there is much uncertainty at the moment. The NCEA is about to be superseded by the Higher Education and Training Awards Council - the new council coming in under the National Qualifications Authority. The basis of the change is to focus on the learner. For example, if you were to start a course with us, there should be no obstacle to your progressing from Letterkenny Institute of Technology to University College, Dublin, or any other college to complete the qualification you want. We are therefore looking at a whole new process of how people can move from one course to another with recognition of each other's qualifications, placing it all under the National Qualifications Authority.

2746.

There is a degree of uncertainty. There is also the possibility that colleges can validate their own certificates and diplomas, and that process is ongoing. We are now entering a period of major change. There is a fair degree of uncertainty about how things will work out. However, it is likely that the Higher Education Training and Awards Council will come into play in September or October 2001. There will also be a Further Education Training and Awards Council. Both councils will come under the National Qualifications Authority. That will be a change in the current structures.

2747.

The NCEA system has served us well in the development of programmes, from certificate to diploma through to degree. It has also been successful in maintaining quality standards.

2748.

Mr Byrne: Mr O'Herlihy said regional technical colleges had found it necessary to move into the higher education field to improve their image and establish credibility. How do you cater for the weaker student who may want practical rather than academic training? For someone who has just finished his Leaving Certificate, what sort of entry qualification is needed for the two-year certificate course?

2749.

Mr O'Herlihy: When I talk about being a degree-­awarding institution, people vote with their feet. If you do not provide what students want, they will go elsewhere. They want the opportunity to go as far as they can. That does not mean that everyone is capable of attaining degree level, but it means that you have an integrated system that ends on that level.

2750.

We deliberately set a very minimalist entry qualification at Leaving Certificate, which would lie between O Levels and A Levels. You must pass your Leaving Certificate, and you must pass English and Maths, but you need not be a very high performer. We closely track the relationship between the results in our institutions and the number of points that people bring on entry. While there is some relationship between points on entry and performance, there is a very close relationship between attendance, participation and performance.

2751.

We have not been successful in addressing literacy and numeracy problems. As an economy, we had roughly one million people under the age of five or over 65, one million people in full-time education and one million at work. We could barely afford full-time education, so we did not address lifelong-learning issues; we are only beginning to address them now. The big challenge is that you must get outside the institution. The key to adult learning is not about delivering a course; it is that the person learns where, when and how they want to learn. We do not give them a package; we give them a mechanism to step onto the process and use it for themselves.

2752.

Ms McWilliams: With regard to forward planning, you said that numbers of school leavers are decreasing and that you may be entering into competition with other colleges. Do you meet them regularly? Do you have some future agreement for which colleges will run which courses? In other words, the students will move; the courses will move, and you may develop specialisms in regional colleges. That is an issue for us in Northern Ireland.

2753.

Secondly, you have had some experience of internal investment. Will you adapt your courses to suit those investors if they can guarantee that they will invest in your area? In other words, how flexible are you in adapting to their ever-changing needs?

2754.

Thirdly, I was an external examiner for the University of Limerick, which was also attached to a college. The college was developing many degree programmes, but it did not have external examiners. Is that the case in Letterkenny Institute of Technology? Have you gone down the higher-education route? Have you any way of evaluating the equivalency between your institute's degree and that of the university?

2755.

Mr Hannigan: The council of directors consists of the chief executives of the 13 institutes of technology. It meets monthly, and the heads of development, registrars and secretaries/financial controllers also meet regularly within that structure. There is therefore a great deal of co-operation and meetings between colleges, and many policy responses come from the colleges as a group. Our secretary general operates in Tralee. He is the former head of a school of business studies seconded to the post, and he operates as a link for each of the colleges.

2756.

If there is a parliamentary question, if any reports are required or necessary for a response, or if a proactive response on Government policy is required, the institutes of technology put forward their views as a group rather than as individuals. It is important that we maintain that.

2757.

Over the years, each college has offered similar programmes, but each has developed its own niche. Letterkenny, for instance, has invested heavily in information technology, and that runs across all the programmes that we operate. We have invested in machinery and networks to try to give students the best possible exposure to IT.

2758.

Other colleges may have strengths in engineering. Letterkenny also has engineering courses, but some people may have more respect for another college's engineering programme. However, I cannot see the colleges saying, "You take this, and I'll take that." I do not believe that will happen. Colleges will retain what they have as best they can.

2759.

However, if difficulties arise, there are a number of other ongoing co-operative ventures. For instance, in the border/midlands/west region there is a regional higher education network that includes the six institutes of tech­nology and the National University of Ireland, Galway. We are working on projects that might pull the strengths of each college together to deal with specific problems.

2760.

Your second question referred to the investment and adoption of our courses. There was very little inward investment into Donegal for 20 years, but over the past two or three years there have been two major investors in Letterkenny - Pacificare and Prumerica, which are two multinationals based in the United States. Letterkenny Institute of Technology has developed an internship programme with Prumerica. It will take our computer degree students for eight to 10 hours a week, training them in certain areas and allowing them to complete their degree programme with us. In that way, Prumerica can give feedback as to whether our students are meeting the demands of the marketplace.

2761.

That works across a number of companies, particularly in the NCEA, where there are industry participants and panels coming to say whether a pro­gramme fits or not. Letterkenny Institute of Technology is adaptable in that respect. The institute will also put short training programmes in place for the companies and suggest others we believe they might need.

2762.

There are external examiners through the NCEA for every subject, meaning there is a vast array of external examiners in all subject areas. Many of them come from the institutes of technology or universities sector or are international external examiners. There is very stringent quality assurance in that respect.

2763.

Mr O'Herlihy: The point about changing needs is very valid. When one of the American companies was thinking of investing, it came, got our syllabi, met our students, examined their work, and made suggestions about one or two modules that should be introduced onto the course as options. Those suggestions were all acted on. We had a formal co-operative agreement with them when they opened in Letterkenny. It is a very proactive type of model, and you must keep doing that, for your syllabus is never correct; it may be correct today, but next year it will have to be changed.

2764.

One company was in the final stages of deciding whether to invest in the region and felt that our students should know a particular software package. We sent one of our lecturers to New York for a week to learn to use and introduce it. The firm was quite surprised that we went to that trouble, and it was sufficiently impressed that it agreed to pay for the venture. That is an example of the reality of the situation. The whole objective is to turn out people with the skills industry requires.

2765.

Mrs Nelis: Thank you for an excellent presentation. I have a number of questions. Perhaps I might first ask you about your budgetary needs and the constraints under which you must operate? How do you attract additional funds for what you describe as a "very expansionist programme"? Moreover, does the 50% figure for those returning to education relate to Ireland as a whole or simply to your successful enterprise?

2766.

Mr Hannigan: No, that is the trend right across the board. Second years are returning to third year, and third years are returning to fourth. Fifty percent is the sort of trend you are looking at.

2767.

Mrs Nelis: I want to ask about student finance arrangements, for we have difficulties with them. You have abolished tuition fees and introduced third-level allowances, which we should term maintenance grants. How is that working? How do you arrange excess allowances for students from less well-off backgrounds? Third-level allowances and the abolition of tuition fees must help tremendously. Do you have a catchment area in the north-west, for instance? Would students from Derry attend Letterkenny Institute of Technology?

2768.

Letterkenny's development is quite astonishing. I am old enough to remember it as a few streets. It is a huge town and will soon be looking for city status.

2769.

Mr Hannigan: I shall return to the issue of financing. That comes from the Department of Education and Science, and we have had an investment of around £15 million over the last 6 years for buildings, mainly capital development. We have built a new library, nine new computer labs, new lecture theatres, a restaurant and a new business development centre, with some money also coming from INTERREG. Moreover, we have two new buildings beginning this summer - a new design block specifically for graphic design students and a multipurpose sports centre. We do not currently have an example of the latter, and that is a major weakness in our infrastructure. The students have part-funded an attached building for student services from capitation. However, the majority of our funding comes from the Department of Education and Science.

2770.

The abolition of fees has provided opportunities for many students, but we never had a fee structure in the first place. Students entering institutes of technology used to get a grant based on their attendance; they now receive a maintenance grant based on their means. As a result, things have changed slightly. Students had to attend every class in order to get payment back at the start of the 1990s, so attendance records are probably not as good as they were back then.

2771.

That may have changed how students think about things. However, what is interesting about the reintroduction of fees in Northern Ireland is that two years ago, when they were brought back, 38% of Southern students attending university in Northern Ireland were from County Donegal. Therefore a huge influx of people from County Donegal into Northern universities is still taking place regardless.

2772.

Mr O'Herlihy: We are very well financed and resourced. Education is very expensive, and the Govern­ment pays all costs for our full-time courses. However, the development function must pay for itself - any training or work that we do pays for itself. Mainstream education is well funded and resourced on an ongoing basis, and that is one of the keys to the success of the sector. If you compare our system with others in Europe, you will see the Government got a huge return on its investment.

2773.

Mrs Carson: We have found, from presentations from other institutes and firms, that there is a problem with careers guidance. You offer many courses, and many students go through your institute. Are you happy with the standard of careers guidance you provide? How do you organise guidance in Letterkenny Institute of Technology?

2774.

Mr Hannigan: We have had a formal careers officer for the past three years. The post has been on a contract basis since January 1998 and is paid for by student capitation. However, it will probably become a full-time post. In those three years we have developed a strong "milk round" - at the moment we have a very broad spectrum of companies recruiting people through the college. Many students will start work before they leave college because of the employment situation in the South.

2775.

We do not really have a problem guiding students at the institute, for they have already chosen a course of action by that stage. However, they may have made a wrong decision before they reach us. For example, students might find themselves on an engineering or computing course completely different from what they had anticipated, and they might therefore struggle with the work.

2776.

Many people complain about the careers guidance secondary schools offer, but resources are needed to provide proper guidance. We work closely with careers guidance officers in secondary schools to try to put people on the right path. Students might find they have chosen the wrong course when they arrive at Letterkenny Institute of Technology, and we try to identify whether that is the case so we can advise them on the appropriate way.

2777.

The employment record of students over the past couple of years suggests that we are pointing people in the right direction and that they are finding employment fairly quickly. The change that occurred when the formal careers service came to the college was vitally important - it made a huge difference. We employed a careers-guidance specialist with a good track record. The work done in that area has been very useful.

2778.

Mrs Carson: There are many colleges around the country. Are the same courses on offer in each, or are you able to design your own?

2779.

Mr Hannigan: We design our own courses for our own colleges. For example, we offer a Bachelor of Science degree in Fire Technology. Another college may specialise in a different area of engineering. We might all begin with the same base, such as a National Certificate in Electronics or Civil Engineering, for example. However, when we move on to diploma and degree courses, colleges splinter off into different areas that cater for their own region or a field where the college has a particular strength.

2780.

Mr Beggs: It is refreshing to hear about the links you have established with businesses in your communities. I am sure we can learn something from that.

2781.

You have fewer colleges in a bigger region, and you have a larger population than we. What is the size range of your colleges, and does the size of the college have an impact on the structure of the courses that they can provide? You spoke about the importance of offering degree courses at colleges. How many degree courses does your college offer, and what percentage of your students takes study to degree level? Students are able to resit A-levels at our further education colleges. Do you offer resits for Leaving Certificates and, if not, what is your reasoning behind that?

2782.

Mr Hannigan: We have a full-time student population of 2,000, and we are one of the smaller colleges. The bigger colleges are Galway, Cork and Waterford. On average they have between 5,000 and 6,000 full-time students. Other colleges in the middle range have no more than 3,000 students.

2783.

Our first degree course was a Bachelor of Business Studies, which we introduced in 1996-97. We currently have nine programmes on offer. There are bachelor degrees in Business Studies and Legal Studies with Taxation, a BSc in Computer Science and an ab initio degree in Computer Networking. The BSc in Fire Technology is coming in this year. There are two science degrees, one in Food Technology and one in Analytical Science. A full-time Nursing degree is coming on stream in 2002 - we currently have a part-time one - and there is a Bachelor of Design in Digital Media.

2784.

In percentage terms, a cap was to be put on the number of students that could study at degree level in the institutes of technology. We are nowhere near that. It has not been imposed; a percentage has not been set. On average, for example, we have 30 students on our Bachelor of Business Studies and 26 to 30 on our computing degree courses. On average you are bringing through between 20 and 30 students on each degree programme, depending on the numbers you start with.

2785.

I should have mentioned that science is having major problems in attracting students into programmes in the South at the moment. We have problems in getting students to do science at secondary level and also to con­tinue at third level. Everyone is going through a shakeout.

2786.

Your last question concerned repeats. We do not do anything regarding repeating legal certificates. Students may choose to do that in a secondary school, but not with us.

2787.

Mr Beggs: I have a supplementary question. Links are developing in Northern Ireland between further education colleges and the universities to enable the first or second year of a course to be delivered locally. Is there much of that happening in the South?

2788.

Mr O'Herlihy: There is a very important choice to be made. If students are fed into a university system, and receive their reward from it, your institution is going to be seen in a particular way. If you give them an award at a lower academic level, like a National Certificate after two years' study, which gives them exemptions in the uni­versity system - of which very many avail - you have the credibility of providing an award at a certain level.

2789.

I shall give you an example of what happens when you go up to the third year at diploma level. Last year, two students who had studied with us for three years transferred to Queen's University, where they finished. They were exempt for the first two years of their mechanical engineering degree at Queen's and came first and second in their cohorts. Very good exemptions are being negotiated between the IT sector and the universities, but we are awarding our own qualifications. I believe that to be a very important difference.

2790.

Mr Hannigan: The National Qualifications Authority, which I mentioned earlier, has been established to streamline the movement of students between different courses. For example, if you had someone doing a two-year certificate course in Letterkenny and going to one university, they might not get any credit for it. At another university, the student might get two years' credit. They are trying to cut out such discrepancies, so that there is a standard way of transferring from National Certificate and National Diploma programmes. It is a matter of regulating the system so that there is no picking and choosing what you want from different programmes.

2791.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you. This evidence session has been valuable to our inquiry into education and training for industry. I was very much taken by Mr O'Herlihy's comments when he talked about the centre of excellence, the agent for economic development and the gateway of best practice in the region all being coupled with education. It is a quite exciting model, and we shall be examining it very closely. Can you elaborate on the weaknesses you stumbled across as you developed the programme? What pitfalls could be avoided?

2792.

Mr Hannigan: In third-level education we are coming up against the problem of getting students to complete their programmes. The number of students who are expected to have completed the programme after two or three years is currently a very hot political issue in the South. Reports have recently been completed in the university and IT sectors. They have shown that in the university sector, which covers seven universities, about 75% to 80% complete their courses. In the institutes of technology the figure is around 60% to 63%.

2793.

The statistics do not show what happens to students who do not complete their courses. One report tracked down those students and found that they are not dropping out. They are switching to different courses or going into the workplace, making conscious decisions for their own benefit. While the completion of courses is a very serious matter, it is also a very intricate and wide-ranging issue. We must consider if it is right to place students in programmes that may not be suited to them. We must find out what happens to them afterwards.

2794.

Institutes of technology have been trying to establish credibility. It has been a battle to do that in the Republic of Ireland. In the past five years people have started to realise that colleges have contributed to economic development. People are paying more attention to what they can do. Colleges battled through a situation in the late 1980s and early 1990s where they were taking in more students without the resources to back it up. Eventually resources started to come on stream to support that. It is a major pitfall if colleges are forced into positions where they are trying to adapt and be readily available; to allow them to do that, the resources must come on stream at the same time.

2795.

We have adequate resources now, but for a long time we were playing "catch up" trying to develop programmes and keep things going. The main strength of the system is that it has been adaptable to change. The Government have said that such programmes are needed to deal with certain skill shortages, and we have adapted accordingly, which is very positive.

2796.

The Deputy Chairperson: Your contribution has been most valuable and is very much appreciated. Thank you for your attendance and for the illustrative hard copy, which is very helpful.

2797.

Mr Hannigan: Thank you very much for the hospitality.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 10 May 2001

Members present:

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Mr Hay

Mr R Hutchinson

Ms McWilliams

Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:

Ms A McVicker, Director                        )

Ms J Poots, Chairperson                        ) Women's Training

Ms B Gadd, Director                        ) Enterprise and

Ms B Ruddy, Director                        ) Childcare

Ms H Crickard, Board member                        )

2798.

The Deputy Chairperson: Good afternoon, you are very welcome. As you know, you are here to give evidence as part of our inquiry into education and training for industry. Will you make a short presentation before members ask their questions. We have around three-quarters of an hour.

2799.

Ms Poots: My name is Joy Poots, and I am the chairperson of the Women's Training, Enterprise and Childcare (WTEC). Previously, I have worked in women's community development in Belfast, and with the Equality Commission statutory duty unit. I am now co-ordinator of a Sure Start project in south Belfast. Helen Crickard is also a member of the Women's TEC board. Helen is a qualified joiner, and a founder member of the Workshops Collective for Arts and Crafts, which is based in Lawrence Street, Belfast. Briege Gadd, another member of the board, is a former chief probation officer and a visiting professor at the University of Ulster at Jordanstown. Anne McVicker, director of the Women's TEC, is going to make a short presentation. We thank you for the opportunity to talk about our work and the future.

2800.

Ms McVicker: The Women's TEC is a unique and innovative organisation which promotes the inclusion of women in non-traditional training skills and employ­ment. We do this with the support of funding from charitable trusts, European funding and in particular, Peace I. We provide training in joinery, electronics, electrical engineering and information technology. At present, we are seeking to establish the first women's training centre in Northern Ireland, which would contain training workshops, childcare provision and start-up enterprise and business units for women.

2801.

Throughout the UK, and by 2006, women will constitute 80% of the growth in the labour force. For the first time, the number of employed women is set to overtake that corresponding to men, yet the employment of women is not equal across all industrial sectors. Women represented 7% of employees in the engineering and technology occupations in 1994, which represents just a 1% rise since 1979. In construction, less than 10% of the workforce is female, and within the craft sector, less than 2% is female. By contrast, more than half of the female workforce is concentrated in the service industry. So why is this a problem?

2802.

The under-representation of women in science, engineering, construction and technology (SECT) is not a new concern. Studies have examined the reasons for, and the consequences of failing to tap in to the potential of women as a source of labour and expertise. The motivations for concern range from economics to equal opportunities.

2803.

One argument for change is that employers are losing out in terms of project development and expertise, if they do not tap in to the full labour force potential. The focus that women can contribute to SECT is a major asset that is currently being ignored. Employers are also experiencing skills shortages, and they are having to recruit employees from all parts of the labour force rather than from one sector only.

2804.

Equal opportunities are also a problem for those who do not get equal access to employment, training and pay. Lots of potential talent is being wasted. That poor representation of women is mirrored in education and training. On a national scale, in 1997 and 1998, women represented 11% of part-time further education students of engineering and technology, and 15% of full-time degree-level students. Fewer than one in ten students in the construction discipline is female, yet one-third of female school leavers go on to university each year. Although the numbers have increased in the past ten years, particularly in the higher-education sector, women remain in the minority.

2805.

Although they are welcome, equal opportunities policies cannot address alone the problem of female under-representation in SECT. Many initiatives have been set up over the years to change that trend. It is essential that those initiatives are supported, developed and increased if women are to be given real choices of areas in which to work and train. Those initiatives must also ensure that women have the opportunity to take an equal role in influencing their environment, the resources that we use and technological advances.

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