COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

2665.

Mr Carrick: I am a local person, so I am very interested in the contribution that your firm makes to employment in the area. It is true to say that you have had difficulty with recruitment of labour in the past - indeed, you employ people from areas outside the normal travel-to-work area. If there is a lack of local labour - and you have had to recruit operatives through recruitment agencies - how do you protect the integrity of your labour skills base when you take in agency workers? Do they have to go through the induction process, and what level of skills do they bring that is not available in the local area? What level of understanding do you have with the agencies in the type of person they send? I understand that there have been difficulties between your existing staff and agency staff, because the agency staff have different terms and conditions. How do you cope with that and what damage, if any, has that done to the production process?

2666.

Mr Gibson: It is not our preference to use temporary or agency operatives, but it is essential in today's labour market. The agency takes a fee and therefore it is more expensive for the company. The learning curve and re-education are an issue. You may be aware that we are bringing in workers from as far away as Portugal - not by choice, but because we cannot recruit enough local operatives. That is an indication of how the economy has benefited and grown. It also shows that the remaining labour force is unemployable, and we must get them into employment.

2667.

The company must ensure that its assets are utilised. We have millions of pounds invested in assets and if those assets and machines are not being operated, the business is not sustainable in a global or a European market environment. We have gone to great lengths bringing in the Portuguese, because we need staff for the evening and night shift. We must work to full capacity every day so that we can service our customers and get recovery through the plant. Our costs increase year-on-year, whether it is the cost of energy or electricity - which in our business in Northern Ireland is up by 25%. We must not let our assets remain idle. From a commercial point of view, we will go to whatever lengths are necessary to remain at full capacity. It is an issue that does need to be managed. It is not the ideal scenario.

2668.

Mr Cromie: In relation to paperwork and training, key elements of induction apply to the temporary and agency worker. Those key elements would be our hygiene and health and safety procedures, and other types of risk assessment. We have ensured that everything is translated. About one in every four of our Portuguese staff speak fluent English, and the remainder have an understanding of English. The agencies are also bringing in temporary staff from Magherafelt, Dungannon, Craigavon and the Belfast area. We do not have as much emphasis on investing in their training. If that person does not reach a minimum standard, we would take steps to ensure they can get there quickly, or look for replacements.

2669.

We have to safeguard the jobs of the Northern Ireland people working in our factories. As Mr Gibson pointed out, our first preference is to Northern Ireland employees and our own employees as well. Unfortunately our district council areas have unemployment levels of 3% to 4%, which is both good and bad. We are taking initiatives, going to the local training and employment agencies to attract the people who are signing on. We have also set up interviews in these agencies in the hope that people may be interested. Our unemployment levels are dropping to the hard core now, leaving only those who are actively avoiding work or are still unable to find employment.

2670.

Mr Carrick: Regulations governing agency workers are different to those applying to the workforce that you would employ directly. That is a weakness in the legislation and this has to be addressed at another level.

2671.

Mr Cromie: They are beginning to address that in Northern Ireland. For our Portuguese workers, we use reputable international agencies that comply with all UK laws. They give us written assurances to that effect.

2672.

Mr Beggs: Your basic problem appears to be that you cannot get enough operatives. In your submission you also said that there are severe skills shortages in particular areas, and you mentioned engineering, infor­mation technology (IT), food technical staff and pro­duction management. Is the shortage at degree or sub-­degree level? Where do you think the additional resources and focus are needed, at the upper rather than the middle educational sector? You also mentioned funding issues that needed to be addressed in the further education sector, and that it deserves more priority in the allocation of resources. Could you explain or expand on this?

2673.

Mr Cromie: Mr Gibson is more informed about the shortages at graduate level through his experience in the purchasing department, which tend to be at the higher levels. We have already mentioned skills shortages in the sub-degree level in engineering. As a company we continually invest in an apprenticeship system. We constantly bring apprentices through, and at various times we appoint new first and second year apprentices. There are skills shortages in Northern Ireland and the price of labour seems to be a defining factor. Companies tend to invest less in an apprenticeship system and prefer to take experienced people, offer them a higher wage and not incur training costs -basically buying in the labour.

2674.

Mr Gibson: Our technical director, Ken Baird, would be looking for qualified personnel from Queen's or Loughry - I have alluded to that in my opening comments. We tend to follow this Anglo-American model, which is very academically based. We want to encourage more graduates to take a year out and get some life experience. It is not an excuse to go to Germany and drink lots of beer, but to go there and live a little bit. They gain experience of working abroad, and hopefully achieve a greater level of maturity. The closer the food industry and the academic providers can work together to tailor the courses the better. If we can collaborate it will sharpen the focus on our industrial needs.

2675.

Mr Beggs: You alluded to the "poaching" aspect - a person being trained by one company, and then moving to another company because it has offered an extra 50p an hour. There is a levy on employers in the building sector in Northern Ireland that funds training with the main construction companies. Do you perceive a need for a similar system in the engineering sector?

2676.

Mr Cromie: It would be helpful, encouraging firms to invest in young apprentice engineers and electricians with a view to the long-term. Many manu­facturing companies have short-term views and needs. However, we have tended to take a long-term view because we have invested consistently, over a number of years. We have found this system to be useful.

2677.

Mrs Nelis: You are trying to stress the importance of the food industry, and I agree with you. Every second or third advertisement on television is about food, so you would imagine that the industry would attract people, especially those who want secure employment. However, despite your best efforts, you are having difficulty attracting the type of trainee you want. You have flagged up functional illiteracy and numeracy difficulties that exist here - something that the Committee has addressed before. Prior to your arrival, the Mayor said that a unique educational system operates in this area. Obviously that unique educational system is failing about 20% of young people - maybe because it is based on the notion of success and failure. Perhaps that is where we must start that level of psychology.

2678.

You have certain ideas of your own; you said that there is an opportunity here to promote a centre of excellence for food education, which is being missed by the educational system. Can you explain how that should be addressed? You point to France as a model that we might want to explore. You also spoke about the issue of partnerships. You said the more partnerships the better, because partnerships develop the issue of multi-skills and help to explore where the gaps are. How can we improve the partnership model? Does that model work in France or Germany?

2679.

I commend you on the fact that you are running the European Computer Driving Licence, which is an excellent course. I can recommend it because I am doing it myself. I find it useful and, in fact, our council is offering it. How does that course help students that are functionally illiterate, because you need to be quite literate to do it?

2680.

Mr Gibson: We have taken a number of graduates from the French system. Two have come to work in Moy Park in technical and development roles. Comparing somebody from the French system with someone at graduate level from the Northern Ireland food system, the French graduate would tend to be up and running much quicker. They seem to have a higher level of maturity and greater commercial awareness. The sandwich course - taking a year out to work in the food industry during your studies - helps you to develop, mature and gain experience. Students from France compliment the practical with the learning, and that is important. Also, agriculture and food are such a huge part of the French economy, and the government has got behind it. They are ensuring that they are focusing on producing high quality graduates who are targeted towards the industry. We have gone in to recruit from their system, to bring graduates into Moy Park.

2681.

Here in Craigavon, we operate a partnership with Amsterdam Business School. In my purchasing function, I bring in placement students from the business school for six months at a time. They come to Moy Park to do a specific job, which has a clear job description and clear responsibility. If we had the same facility in Northern Ireland, I would be delighted to bring under­graduates in for six or twelve months, to work in pre-defined jobs in the industry. That helps us as an employer, in terms of recruitment. If it is a local person, they could be re-employed after graduating. I do not have that opportunity to the same degree, so I have to go to Amsterdam to bring in students. The competency of students from the Dutch system, which we have not touched on, is very high. They are very competent, well rounded people. That is my personal experience, and I pass it on to the Committee, for what it is worth.

2682.

Mr Cromie: I will come back to two of the points that Mrs Nelis made. My understanding of what we could learn from the German model, and emulate, are the close links between their education providers at community level and local German businesses. They tend to touch much more on practical skills. They tailor courses around the practical needs of the people coming out of their education system, and to the needs of the manufacturing economy. Increased funding for local colleges, such as East Tyrone and Upper Bann Institutes, will help them fund and make available more places, and give more options to companies such as ourselves.

2683.

I am encouraged to hear that you are participating in the European Computer Driving Licence as well. I see that having a knock-on effect. People tell others in the factory about it, and this encourages others in the factory, who have low self-esteem, to go forward when they hear that a colleague has done it and has been pleased with what he or she has achieved.

2684.

In Moy Park, people have embarked on NVQs. We offer the opportunity for advancement through internal advertisements, encouraging people to attain a level two NVQ - or for some jobs, a level three qualification. It is seen as a means of advancement, and we are encouraging them to take as much training as possible. Some of it is done in their own time, which is a real credit to them. It is all about encouragement. The NVQs started by targeting a group of people who then sold it to the others. Word-of-mouth really sells it, and people get excited about it and want to put themselves forward for it.

2685.

Mrs Nelis: Has there been any resistance to training at all?

2686.

Mr Cromie: We get little resistance to the training because we give people the opportunity to come off-line to do it. We put the resources there, we allow for a certain percentage of additional employment to let people get time off-line. They are not pressurised, and we are giving them enough time to carry on with the training. At first, people laughed about NVQs. However, as they saw more and more people do it, the message snowballed. People began to see it as a meaningful qualification, and an opportunity for them to learn more about the company as well, which makes their job more interesting.

2687.

Mr Gibson: I will add just one final fact. Over a three-year period, we would typically spend £1·5 million on training - 30% is grant-aided - but that is training that, in reality, we should not need to offer. Our competitors, whether they be in Holland or France, are able to use those millions to re-invest in technology, or in other parts of their business.

2688.

Mr Byrne: I thank you for your analytical and informative written submission. The message is generally in line with my own thinking. In relation to the in-house training, it seems that you are being forced to do that in order to improve the basic skills requirements of your operatives. Do you require closer collaboration with colleges in order to deliver further NVQs? How flexible, or not, are colleges in tailoring their course provision to suit your needs?

2689.

Mr Gibson addressed the graduate placement programme. Are food technology courses in Northern Ireland too theoretically based and perhaps a little outdated?

2690.

Mr Cromie: I will pick up on the first two points on the NVQs and the inflexibility of colleges. The NVQ system that we use in the meat and poultry courses is actually based on UK standards. We developed an in-house system, so we actually accredited ourselves as an NVQ centre. We are able to deliver the NVQs in that way. That had an employment effect in our own area. It also meant that there was local ownership. It was the encouragement of the NVQ manager and assessors that also helped to sell that. There was less collaboration with colleges at that level.

2691.

We are now considering a change in the NVQ to the City & Guilds structure. That is an opportunity for our local colleges to get involved. It would be much more formalised, and in line with what they have previously delivered. There has been a noticeable shift in the flexibility of colleges in the last two years. Loughry College has been excellent of late with us in that regard. Indeed, Upper Bann Institute has also been flexible. They offer Saturday morning classes and will put on two classes in a day so that our night shift workers can leave work and do two or three hours training. The evening shift workers can also do the training in the morning before they go to work. That flexibility is the way forward for local businesses and colleges to justify expenditure on training, and also to ensure that training is being directed exactly where it is needed.

2692.

Mr Gibson: With regard to the question on graduates and whether the courses are too theoretical I referred to my personal experience. It is 14 years since I left Queen's, so I cannot comment on today's food science courses from a personal point of view. However, for a person to spend three or four years of his or her life to study science is a great opportunity, and there is a view that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity that should be encouraged.

2693.

I am a firm believer that anybody who comes out of our education system must be able to be utilized by industry, and deliver value. One way of doing that is to provide people who are rounded. Too much focus on science means that you may never get the roundness that you could have otherwise achieved. Unless you are going into detailed research and technology, you must counter-balance that when you get into your job. It is a personal view, but the more balance that we can have - I referred to the sandwich course - the better. One practical way, with regard to the food science courses in Northern Ireland, is that I, as a director looking to recruit young people, could create openings for year-long placements in specific jobs. It would help me and also the student. That experience, no matter how theoretical, would mean that they are so much quicker off the ground whenever they are seeking full-time employment.

2694.

Mr Byrne: I accept the resonance that you are making about the sandwich year and the practical experience. I want to know the actual content of the food technology courses and the food science degrees. Are they too abstract in scientific content, with not enough food technology application?

2695.

Mr Gibson: I am not qualified to answer that question in relation to content of today's courses. I can only talk about my own experience, and at that time the emphasis was on science and theory. I cannot give any judgement of today's courses because I do not know the syllabus. I can just look at the output and talk about the sandwich course.

2696.

Mr Bryne: I admire the success of Moy Park, how it has expanded onto mainland Europe and America, and is now part of a global food business. Is the biggest limiting factor the raw material supplies, the sales and marketing areas, or the workforce?

2697.

Mr Gibson: In relation to the future growth of the business, I would say that the biggest threat -setting aside competition - is labour, because at present we are bringing the labour to the assets. In the future, if we are unable to bring in labour, we will have to move our assets worldwide to find labour.

2698.

The Chairperson: Can you give a rough estimate of how many Portuguese workers you have had to bring in as a percentage of the total company? Also, what is the pay rate on those hard-to-fill vacancies - is it at minimum wage or above minimum wage?

2699.

Mr Cromie: It is certainly above minimum wage. Our operatives' rates are approximately £4·10 an hour for the initial four-week training period. With the latest pay rounds and wage negotiations, that is likely to rise. We pay £4·70 to £4·75 for our minimum basic workers at grade C. Our other weekly paid rates go up to £5·15 and above, and supervisory level and above is £6 plus. We are certainly above the current rate of £3·70.

2700.

Mrs Nelis: Can I invite you to Derry? We have 10,000 people unemployed - about 50% of the work force.

2701.

The Chairperson: I thank both Mr Gibson and Mr Cromie for their interesting remarks and also for the written submission. We wish you and your company well in the future. Thank you.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 10 May 2001

Members present:

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Mr R Hutchinson

Ms McWilliams

Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:

Mr Paul Hannigan                        ) Letterkenny Institute of Technology

Mr Jack O'Herlihy                        )

2702.

The Deputy Chairperson: Good afternoon, you are very welcome. After your presentation, the Committee will have some questions to put to you.

2703.

Mr Hannigan: In my presentation I have given some background information on the system of institutes of technology, but I shall also focus on Letterkenny's position within it. Letterkenny Institute of Technology is typical of the other colleges. It is one of the smaller examples, but its structure and trends are similar to the others around the country.

2704.

The map shows the 13 institutes of technology operating in the Republic of Ireland. Though it has only been established for the past year and a half, the name of Tipperary Rural Business and Development Institute (TRBDI) was recently changed to Tipperary Institute. It has not yet joined our system, but it is an important development.

2705.

The second slide gives an indication of the growth of the sector over the years. It is important to remember that it was only established at the beginning of the 1970s, and many colleges are celebrating their 30^th anniversary this year. From the slide you can see that in 1975-76 there were over 3,000 full-time students in the colleges, and by 1999-2000 that had grown to 46,000. The major changes started to occur around 1987. That can be related to the Republic of Ireland's economic history, for one could say class sizes increased by 100% around that time. The increase also tied in with the Programme for National Recovery in 1987 and agree­ments since then.

2706.

The changes in college enrolments and the fortunes of the Irish economy have therefore been tightly entwined since 1987. Right through the 1990s until the present, there have been massive increases in enrolments. We are trying to help the college infra­structure keep pace.

2707.

The third slide shows the types of programmes Letterkenny Institute of Technology offers. Courses are provided in the areas of science, engineering and business. Science includes computing, while business includes languages, accountancy, marketing and so on. They are broad areas, but the three generic headings are business, engineering and science; that is where it started.

2708.

The basic National Certificate qualification can be achieved in a two-year programme. If students have obtained a 55% average across their subjects at the end of those two years, they may return to do a diploma year. On completion of a diploma they can return to do a degree. The beauty of the ladder system is that, if students decide to leave after two years to work, they have the option of returning to complete the diploma at a later stage. If they do not attain the 55% average at the end of year two and gain work experience, they can return afterwards to complete a diploma.

2709.

In other words, the work experience makes up for the deficit in academic achievement and gives them the chance to return. Our experience of students who have been out for a while has been that their maturity has improved remarkably, and they know exactly what they can and cannot achieve with their qualifications. Students who return after some time tend to take things more seriously than previously, and that is very important.

2710.

As your documents will show, the annual growth in gross domestic product (GDP) in the Republic of Ireland from 1990-98 was around 6%. That is also shown in comparison with that of other countries. There has been huge development in the Irish economy over the period. If you look at the employment graph, you will see the jumps from 1994-2000. Employment is at its highest ever in the Republic of Ireland, with up to 1·7 million people currently employed.

2711.

We are struggling at the moment to maintain skills in certain areas. Pressure is being put on the colleges to supply graduates who can remedy the skill shortage. We are doing our best to balance a number of issues in a situation of declining entrance demographics. Before this we have had non-stop growth and success. The environment is changing slightly for the future, and I shall expand on that as I continue.

2712.

Certain trends are obvious in entrance levels to full-time higher education. As you can see, there has been growth in entry from all sectors, ranging from higher professional down to unskilled manual between 1992 and 1998, and that is continuing. We are moving towards a situation of mass third-level education of which anyone who wishes can avail. We must decide whether it is the right thing for everyone. Some people may find themselves on courses to which they are unsuited, and they might have been better taking some other option. It might take them the first or second year to realise that and look elsewhere.

2713.

We are coming to terms with that issue too. While some might see it as desirable for everyone to move into third-level education, that might not be the best solution for all. We must keep that in mind when analysing the retention of students and completion of courses.

2714.

As our document shows, the profile of the working population has changed. The majority of people in the 65+ or 60-64 age group have had only primary education; now nearly 30% receive third-level education, and that will continue to increase. For example, the majority of modern students now have Leaving Certificate and third-level qualifications, but that was not previously the case; the profile is changing.

2715.

The major problem facing us, particularly in institutes of technology, is the decline in school leavers. This is because our students have traditionally been taken directly from school into colleges. As illustrated, there is expected to be a drop of around 25% in the 15-year period from 1998-2012. That is a big drop-off in our current market. There are now 13 colleges, with a broad range of courses in each. This will force us into a competitive position vis-à-vis each other as well as the universities.

2716.

We shall all have to grapple with the situation. The major issues facing us are the skill needs of the economy, the decline in school leavers, technology-­based qualifications, and adult learners; our document lists them for you.

2717.

Like our college in Letterkenny, its sister institutes were initially regional technical colleges set up around the country. In January 1998 they were all renamed institutes of technology. We work on an open national applications system. If you look at the statistics in front of you, you will find it is obvious that we are taking the majority of our students from our own region. That is a trend in each of the colleges at the moment. They started as regional colleges, then moved to a national application system and became institutes of technology. Now they are once again catering primarily for the people in their own regions.

2718.

The intake of students from County Donegal to Letterkenny Institute of Technology has risen from about 50% four years ago to around 75% now. The remainder of the students can come from anywhere in Ireland. We take people from Monaghan because of the good bus route; many students come from Dublin because they have relations in Donegal, and the remainder tends to come from the surrounding counties of Sligo, Leitrim and Mayo. We are happy that 76% of the student intake choose Letterkenny Institute of Technology as their first preference, and 75% of the intake is from County Donegal; our local region is supporting us.

2719.

You were interested in where people get jobs and where they end up. The ladder of opportunity shows that students are moving from certificate to diploma to degree. On average, 50% return to do a diploma or degree, so they are taking further study. It might not be with Letterkenny Institute of Technology; the students may go to another college or university, but on average 50% are returning to education after taking a certificate or diploma.

2720.

A survey undertaken in November on students who left the college in May and June showed that on average 30% to 35% had found employment. There is a huge trend in the Republic of Ireland for taking a year out - around 40,000 Irish students are currently in Australia. Therefore if you are looking for a major source of graduates at the moment, they are in Australia. The number taking a year out has remained at about 5% to 6%. The number of graduates looking for work is about the same as the national average unemploy­ment rate, so we are not too concerned about it.

2721.

The interesting thing from our point of view is that, when we looked at where graduates were finding jobs, we found that about 40% do so in Donegal, some­thing that was not previously the case. All along our argument was that, if the opportunities existed in the county, graduates would stay to work there, but the necessary level of employment was not there to retain them. The east coast is still drawing a large percentage of our graduates, and it has taken a big jump this year from 26% to 43%. That indicates the profile of the country, and the Government's strategy at the moment is to try to regenerate the regions. Letterkenny Institute of Technology is working closely with the Industrial Development Agency (IDA) to get industry to locate in the north-west, particularly to give our graduates an opportunity.

2722.

We have listed the services to industry. Jack O'Herlihy is the head of development in the Letterkenny Institute of Technology and deals specifically with the college's business development centre.

2723.

The last couple of slides point out the dispersal of graduate employment throughout the country, particularly for primary and higher degree holders. It mirrors the Letterkenny graduates statistics; over 60% of graduates are employed on the east coast in Dublin, Kildare, Meath and Wicklow. The index at the end shows that those counties are employing 1·6 times the number of graduates they produce. In the border counties of Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Louth, Cavan and Monaghan, it works out at about one third. Therefore, regardless of whether people from the border counties graduate from Letterkenny or from Dublin or Galway, the Donegal region can only sustain about one third of the graduates it produces. Our argument is that, if the opportunities for employment in the region are improved, more people could be attracted back, and that has recently been borne out by some new companies setting up there.

2724.

It is a similar story for certificate and diploma holders; the east coast is dominant. That is why there is a three-region set-up in the Republic at the moment. Region one is the east coast; region two consists of the cities of Galway, Limerick and Cork - three university cities with larger graduate employment. Region three includes the midlands, the north-west and the south-east, which do not retain their fair share of graduates in relation to the numbers they produce.

2725.

Mr O'Herlihy: The institutions have a dual mandate. They are intended to be academic centres of excellence. As such, they are supposed to be meeting the needs of the economy. They are therefore mandated to produce middle- and higher-level technicians. In addition to being academic centres of excellence, they are designed to be agents for the economic development of the regions they serve. That is my job description as head of development - in other words, I am the manager responsible for linking the institutions to the economy.

2726.

While it is easy to say, it is hard to do. Without belittling other academics or myself, they tend to believe there is a right answer that they know and will provide for you. As you are aware, that will not work with industry, for it is not like that. There is an important educational retraining process to re-equip us to work with industry. We work with it by providing services in the marketplace like any other consultant, except that we do not do so for profit. We do some training and some consultant advisory services and research work.

2727.

I shall give some simple examples of the type of research we carry out; it could hardly be termed rocket science. There is an engineering company in the town that makes fish-farming cages. The value of the fish in those cages can be up to £2 million. They walk along a light walkway system, and the cages can be up to one or two miles off the coast. People were falling off the little walkways, and they asked us to design a more flexible, stronger walkway so that the cages would not be damaged. It is a practical problem to solve.

2728.

Another simple example concerns a company producing an almanac for Ireland each year. Its members came to us and said, "Next year we do not want a book but a CD and web site". You take one form of publication and put the material into another.

2729.

Those are the types of research projects we do. In the area of consultancy, we have been working very closely for the last four years with the University of Ulster in the north-west region on the management of change for micro-enterprises with innovation and change. We sourced a good group from the University of Brighton who had developed a method of working with small businesses. We then attracted funding and were trained to use that method in our region. You are therefore continually trying to act as a gateway to your region for best practice from wherever you can source it.

2730.

The other important aspect of the development function is that we work closely with the three major development agencies in our region. They are the IDA, which tries to attract inward investment from outside of the country, Enterprise Ireland, which looks after indigenous industry, and Údarás na Gaeltachta, which looks after the Irish-speaking part of Donegal - up to 30% of people in Donegal speak Irish.

2731.

While we work with those three agencies in trying to help create new jobs, we have a business development centre on the campus. If we provide the ambience for people to invest in our town and give them the facilities to do so and start up new projects, they are more likely to come. We therefore work very closely with those agencies.

2732.

Broadly speaking, those are the things we do in working with the region. The important thing is that the experience is then fed back into courses for the professional development of your staff. We pay extra to do that; if I have a lecturer in marketing who works for a day with a company in the programme we are doing, that person gets paid extra for his work. It is a very crude market reality. If you pay people, they are more interested, and the benefit to the institute is that staff bring back the experience to make the marketing course more real.

2733.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much for describing the Letterkenny experience. Members will have been thinking about your presentation, and there will certainly be some questions to ask. I remind the members that I was speaking to Mr Hannigan before the meeting; he agreed to share what they had learned from the weaknesses that they had come across in their system. It is not just a question of jewels in the crown. He kindly agreed to share with us the limitations that they had established and how they had sought to overcome them.

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