COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

2143.

Mr Beggs: You say that there are opportunities. I would not go into a school and point to a particular subject; I would point out the opportunities. How are careers guidance teachers flagging up such opportunities?

2144.

Mr Barron: The Western Education and Library Board showed us clearly. I take Mrs Carson's point. My brother is a teacher, and he is completely disillusioned with the education system. That is a personal thing, but the image that we got was that they did not care one way or another. They were concerned only with getting through their day. It is a terrible thing to say, but they were not particularly bothered who went where afterwards, as long as they got them their O-levels and A-levels in chemistry.

2145.

Mr J Kelly: I note that operating profits doubled in the first quarter. Could Galen not reflect that in its wages? I know that you are a market undertaking driven by the City, but I shall not deal with that question now.

2146.

Mr Barron: I must be careful what I say.

2147.

Mr J Kelly: The fact that operating profits doubled in the first quarter leapt out at me when you mentioned the wage situation - it seemed an odd juxtaposition. Pharmaceuticals are obviously a growth industry. Do you have ways of projecting future growth over the next five or 10 years?

2148.

Mr Barron: We had our plans until we acquired Warner Chilcott. Although that was an acquisition, the Americans think that it was a merger. Many of them are getting on to the board at the moment. As I explained, owing to the diversity of products that we manufacture, we wanted a diverse culture, but they feel that there is more money to be made in America than in Europe, and on the manufacturing side of things as opposed to contract services.

2149.

Mr Kelly: If you can project forward 10 years, you will be in a better position to say that you will need a specific number of chemists. You can offer a better package when you go into schools.

2150.

Mr Barron: I could not really project it any further than the next two or three years. The Q Chem and SynGal synthesis units are combining to form Chemical Synthesis Services (CSS). I could not predict any more than that. There are 150 jobs.

2151.

Mr J Kelly: The Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee, on which I also serve, has received representation from biochemists, who feel that there has been a grievous drain of personnel from that discipline to the manufacturing side.

2152.

Mr Barron: In Northern Ireland?

2153.

Mr J Kelly: Yes. Some of them go to the South and some to England and elsewhere. That is one of the problems that they face. Qualified people do not go to hospitals but into industrial chemistry.

2154.

Mr Barron: Perhaps you could tell me who they are. I could do with some of them.

2155.

Mr J Kelly: It is an open secret, and that is the problem. It happens because qualified biochemists are so badly paid in hospitals. They find industry more attractive. Quite apart from the attractiveness of the wages, there is a shortage right across the field of chemistry and biochemistry. I am anxious to know whether your company could do anything more than at present to develop the education and training system.

2156.

Mr Barron: I have noted many of the things that have been said here today, the two main issues being bursaries and scholarships and talking to grammar schools. I take that on board, and that will happen. I mentioned our links with Upper Bann Institute. We have had various talks with the School of Chemistry as to how we are going to bring the young people in. My biggest difficulty is with the schoolteachers, who are most influential in telling a child what future to take. I am not sure how to get over that sociological problem. It arises when a child's mother or father is in dentistry or medicine. I do not know how we can change that.

2157.

Mr J Kelly: The old notion of apprenticeship may be relevant. A young man went to serve his apprenticeship because he knew that at the end of five years he was going to get a job as a tradesman. If you planned ahead, you could get people to train in school for chemistry because at the end of that period there would be a job for them. Are you sending a positive message about that?

2158.

Mr Barron: We need to get into the schools again.

2159.

Mr J Kelly: People are looking for security of employment.

2160.

Mr Dallat: I am sure that your visit here has not been wasted. There is someone from the Department sitting behind you in the Public Gallery and, no doubt, your message will be carried back to where it needs to go. Three times you have highlighted the mindset of teachers. You also said that parents may well have been brought up in a particular social climate and projected that on to their children.

2161.

Recently, I met some young people who were studying physics at the North East Institute of Further and Higher Education in Ballymena. They were from a working-­class background and found the subject refresh­ing, because it was taught in a completely different way, using computers and new technology. Does chemistry have to be all test tubes and Latin?

2162.

Mr Barron: It does not, although it was in my day.

2163.

Mr Dallat: I did not study chemistry, but I observed it - and smelt it - when I walked past. The Committee should listen to you and you need to help us, otherwise this will not change. We have had fifty years of a stuffy education system that survived on 3 A-levels that had no relevance to jobs. We should be radical.

2164.

Mr Barron: I hope that I can benefit from Members' experience. I hoped that the Committee could tell me what I should do. Taking a year out is helpful to students on chemistry or physics courses. They learn a lot about the private sector.

2165.

Mr Dallat: Norbrook Laboratories is the only other company that I know. Do the companies work in isolation, or do they get together to say to the university, "Let us get real and start producing young graduates who are enthusiastic and interested in what we are doing"? Are companies so competitive that they do not talk to each other?

2166.

Mr Barron: We work in total isolation.

2167.

Mr Dallat: I thought that. Should there not be some mechanism to encourage the industry to develop an association that would help to bring about changes?

2168.

Mr Barron: There should, but I do not think that it will happen with Norbrook. If there were involve­ment from half a dozen pharmaceutical companies in Northern Ireland, it would be possible.

2169.

Mr Dallat: I do not understand that. Do you support the principle of collaboration?

2170.

Mr Barron: It depends on the nature of the chemistry. The pharmaceutical world will not tell anybody else what it is doing.

2171.

Mr Dallat: I was enthused by what I heard from somebody who told the Committee that they had gone to the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education, got the lecturers by the scruff of the neck and practically written the courses for them.

2172.

Mr Barron: If we could do that, I would be delighted.

2173.

Mr Dallat: Should you not go to the Council for the Curriculum, Examination and Assessment, who set all the exams, and mould the way in which young people are made to think in order to pass exams? That would ring the changes, would it not?

2174.

Mr Barron: It is not so much a matter of passing exams. As Mrs Carson said, the intellectual skills exist in Northern Ireland, there is no doubt about that, but the students seem to be taking up pharmacy or other things. We need to move them in the direction of chemistry. We need to inform people that if they get a degree or PhD in chemistry, they can get a job. They do not have to be a schoolteacher. There are many jobs available.

2175.

Mr Dallat: Were all the teachers from the Western Board from grammar schools or were some from the secondary sector?

2176.

Mr Barron: They were from the secondary sector mainly.

2177.

The Chairperson: There is a review of the whole curriculum going on, which will cover chemistry. We are aware of the need to do something about the numbers of people taking mathematics and physics, as the numbers are dropping. I presume that the same has been happening in chemistry.

2178.

Mr Barron: Yes it has, although last year the numbers rose a little due to the work of a professor at Queen's University.

2179.

The Chairperson: What has been happening to the numbers of A-level students studying chemistry?

2180.

Mr Barron: The numbers have remained fairly constant. It is the choices that they make after A-levels that are the problem.

2181.

The Chairperson: Do you want to re-jig the content of the A-level?

2182.

Mr Barron: No.

2183.

The Chairperson: You are concerned about motivation and careers guidance.

2184.

Mr Barron: Yes. Why would someone who is guaranteed a job in dentistry or medicine study chemistry when there is no certainty of a job in Northern Ireland when their studies are finished? However, we say that jobs are available to chemistry students.

2185.

The Chairperson: Are there problems attracting people with the right experience in postgraduate and postdoctoral research?

2186.

Mr Barron: There are few people available who have studied for a PhD or postdoctoral qualification. It is a specific field, which is why we take people from elsewhere in Europe.

2187.

The Chairperson: Is that happening more on the PhD side?

2188.

Mr Barron: It is. In contrast to here, France, for example, has a surplus of chemistry students.

2189.

Mr Beggs: You mentioned the fact that you are now the number one firm in Northern Ireland, as far as market capitalisation is concerned. Did many school­children and teachers involved in careers guidance visit your firm last year?

2190.

Mr Barron: There have not been many. There have been many trips to SynGal, the synthesis unit in Portadown. I do not know exactly how many. Often, the technical managers organise trips.

2191.

Mr Beggs: Are schools unaware of what is happening in industry? Should links be developed at that stage?

2192.

Mr Barron: I do not think that they are aware. Galen should be doing more - there is no doubt about it.

2193.

Mr Beggs: The schools should be doing more, too.

2194.

Mr Barron: If the schools want to approach us, we would be more than happy to show them around and exert as much influence on the teachers as we can. If I were to tell our chairman that there would be a lot of schoolteachers and careers advisors visiting the company, he would be over the moon. He has invested a lot of his own money in promoting chemistry in the Province.

2195.

The Chairperson: Is your company involved in the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership, which attempts to promote links between schools, FE colleges and business?

2196.

Mr Barron: No.

2197.

The Chairperson: That would seem to be the official vehicle for many of the things that we have been talking about.

2198.

Mr Barron: I do not want to get the situation out of perspective. In Northern Ireland, we have over 1,000 people working at three sites, and we can fill most of those jobs. We are having difficulties finding "knowledge workers" in chemistry. I am not talking about the rank-and-file employees.

2199.

Mrs Carson: Could you give us a breakdown of your workforce by gender?

2200.

Mr Barron: It would be approximately 50-50. I know that because someone worked out the figures the other day. I had thought that the percentage of females working for the company was higher, because we are presently working out a flexible working hours system.

2201.

Mrs Carson: Is it the same ratio for senior positions?

2202.

Mr Barron: No. It is male-dominated at senior level.

2203.

Mr Beggs: What is the situation at graduate level?

2204.

Mr Barron: It is about 50-50 for graduates, but junior, middle and senior management are male-­domin­ated.

2205.

Mrs Carson: There is a lot of work to be done.

2206.

Mr J Kelly: What is the ratio of professional workers to manual workers in the company?

2207.

Mr Barron: Twenty-five to thirty per cent of the workforce are professionals.

2208.

Mr J Kelly: Would you have any difficulties recruiting manual workers?

2209.

Mr Barron: No. Employees tend to stay in our Portadown site. Conditions are good there. We work in super-clean environments and they seem to like that.

2210.

Mr J Kelly: Would the wages be comparable to other companies?

2211.

Mr Barron: We carry out an annual wage survey. There are many wage bands at shop-floor level. We may not pay the highest wages, but we are up there, and I am confident about our performance in that area. It is in the area of "knowledge workers" that we are slightly behind. However, we are addressing that.

2212.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much for coming. It has been extremely interesting.

2213.

Mr Barron: I hope that I have not painted a picture of doom, gloom and despondency. That is not the case. I must stress that those are the problems, as it were.

2214.

The Chairperson: Your company has the problem of success. It could grow even more rapidly, and that is the key point that we will take away. We have heard similar stories from other major companies. Your situation relates particularly to chemistry, and it has been a useful example for us. As we move through our inquiry, we will want to build that into our consider­ations. We wish you well and hope that you will be able to build closer links with the schools, further education and higher education establishments.

2215.

Mr Barron: Thank you. I would be more than happy to assist the Committee further, if necessary.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 22 March 2001

Members present:

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Mr Hay

Mr R Hutchinson

Ms McWilliams

Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:

Mr T Scott     )                     Department of Higher and Further                      Ms D McGill     )                     Education, Training and Employment

2216.

The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee I welcome you both.

2217.

We are dealing with the consultation document 'Building a Stronger Network: Developing the Role of National Training Organisations' and preparing to frame a response to it. We have looked into the background and structure of National Training Organisations (NTOs) in Northern Ireland and we have found it quite interesting. It is related to the structure of the Sector Training Councils (STC), so amongst other things we would like you to elaborate on, and answer questions on that area.

2218.

Would you like to make any initial statement or summary before we move to questions?

2219.

Mr Scott: The Committee might find it useful if we simply said a few words about our background. You have indicated that the structure of STCs in Northern Ireland is interesting. That is always a frightening word to use.

2220.

In 1989-90 the industry training boards in Northern Ireland were wound up, roughly at the same time as the industry training boards in Great Britain. Most of the training boards formed Sector Training Councils (STCs) on a voluntary basis after the statutory boards were disbanded. That is why they exist, and they have grown over that period of time. There are 13 of them representing the private sector. The only remaining statutory body is the Construction Industry Training Board (Northern Ireland). It carries out more or less the same functions as the Construction Industry Training Board and the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board in Great Britain. There are two training boards in Great Britain compared to one in Northern Ireland.

2221.

The public and voluntary sectors in Northern Ireland are largely represented by the National Training Organisations (NTOs) which mainly operate out of England. However, in some cases they are represented in Northern Ireland, usually on a part-time or voluntary basis. Our contact with them is based on that.

2222.

I do not know how much information the Committee wants me to give. Would you be happy for me to just answer questions?

2223.

The Chairperson: We will move to questions.

2224.

Mr Beggs: I see from the evidence submitted that 73 NTOs cover the United Kingdom. There appears to be some confusion over the number operating here. Can you clarify exactly how many there are in Northern Ireland? How much overlap is there with Northern Ireland's STCs? As much of industry will not be catered for if those NTOs do not operate here, please identify the areas which are not covered. Where areas of industry such as service and health industries are not covered by NTOs in Northern Ireland, can you assure us that this is not detrimental for those training in the Province?

2225.

Mr Scott: Yes, there are 73 NTOs. Our best estimate is that about 40 to 45 of those have some sort of link with STCs in Northern Ireland. For example, in Northern Ireland the textile and clothing industry is represented by a single STC, but I think that in England three or four NTOs span that industry. In England there are other bodies such as the Further Education NTO which deals with the public sector. It does not operate in Northern Ireland, but it does have members here through the colleges. However, it has no effective communication with us in the Province. In the Health Service the NTOs work with and link into the various boards and trusts. They do not have a formal presence here; they are simply represented by a Northern Ireland Committee which does not have a full-time structure.

2226.

One of the main roles of NTOs in Great Britain is to set standards which help determine National Vocational Qualifications (NVQs). As I said, Northern Ireland feeds into that through the NTOs on a voluntary basis. As we do not have our own separate NVQ system we rely on the English and Welsh system. As you are aware, Scotland has its own vocational qualification system.

2227.

No trainee is detrimentally affected with regard to the quality of training provided or the outcomes of that training. I think that the gap is in our information and knowledge about what is going on in the various industry sectors rather than in the quality of training being provided.

2228.

Mr Beggs: Is there not a danger with the duplication of the two different organisations that you end up missing out and misusing limited resources? If NVQs are used in Northern Ireland, is there not some degree of linkage into these national organisations?

2229.

Mr Scott: Yes. NVQs are established by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority (QCA), and we link into it very clearly. When sectoral committees determine NVQs someone from Northern Ireland is usually in attendance. In most cases, an NTO represent­ative will also be there in a voluntary capacity. You are right that there is always a possibility of missing out, but we have no knowledge of having missed out in that area to date.

2230.

The resources our Department has applied to STCs and to this area have all been in the private sector. STCs cover most of the private sector. We have not yet applied any resources to the public or voluntary sector as regards sectoral development and we are currently addressing that issue through a consultative forum we have set up in Northern Ireland.

2231.

Mr Carrick: You referred to the Construction Industry Training Board (CITB) as the only statutory body in the STC. The CITB in Northern Ireland recently identified a need to encourage a culture change within the industry, and to that end recommended greater employer commitment to training and a substantial increase in the number and variety of firms involved. Are there any procedures in place to ensure an adequate and varied range of employer representation on STCs?

2232.

As you are aware, CITB is funded by levies on members from within the construction industry. Where employers use CITB training programmes a 65% grant is available, though I understand this will soon be reduced to 40%. That places them at a distinct advantage over the private sector. This sector can also give accredited training, but because private firms do not enjoy the 40% grant facility, there is not a level playing field as regards competition.

2233.

Mr Scott: Whether a firm is a member of the CITB is determined by the Industrial Training Levy (Construction Industry) Amendment Order (Northern Ireland) 1997, commonly known as the scope order. There is no opting out of its mechanism. If the scope order applies to a firm then that firm has to pay its levy. The cultural change required is about attitude rather than membership. If firms have to pay a levy, they would expect value for money and become engaged with the CITB.

2234.

As regards representation on the CITB, appoint­ments are made by the Minister and the Department after consultation with the industry. That is provided for in the Order. It is carried out under open competition in the sense that an advertisement is placed, and interested people apply. The Minister chooses from the list of successful applicants. The interests of employees and employers are equally represented on the board. Representation is on an open basis, ending with a ministerial appointment. You will appreciate that the industry, as payer of the levies, is interested in ensuring that the right people represent it.

2235.

Each year, the board submits proposals for a levy to the Department. Those would include details of what the board proposes to do with the levy before an Order is signed off, bringing the levy into operation. During recent years the board has sought to reduce the levy and get as much value for money from it as possible. One way to reduce it was to reduce grant aid to particular types of training. At the moment, the focus is on minority trades. For example, they think they need to do more to encourage people into areas such as flooring, where there is no proper training course. Another example would be ceiling fixing where there are not a great number of people but there is a need for training.

2236.

The CITB is not, in the main, a training provider. As I understand it, an employer will find a training provider whether it is a college or private-sector organisation. It will seek grant aid from CITB for that training. CITB does not subsidise trainers; it helps employers purchase training through the grant system. The issue of unfair competition is one we would need to highlight to the CITB.

2237.

Since it is a grant to the employer as the purchaser of training, rather than a subsidy to a training provider, we feel there is a level playing field.

2238.

Mr Carrick: Certain private training operators with accreditation are being disadvantaged by the current grant system. At a later stage outside the Committee I should like the opportunity to discuss with you an individual case I have in mind. It would be a perfect example of what I am trying to say.

2239.

Mr Scott: Yes. It would be helpful if you could do that.

2240.

Mr Byrne: Perhaps I might have some information on the consultative forum. What is its exact role and remit, and what kind of function, statutory or otherwise, will it have? I should also like to know what the role of the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) is in co-ordinating and leading the task of devising quality training in the private and voluntary community sectors as well as public sectoral training in further education and training centres. I shall make the general comment that this Committee has the task of working towards better value-added training.

2241.

Mr Scott: We became conscious that, in addition to the local STCs, a number of NTOs were beginning to operate in Northern Ireland on a voluntary basis, for example, in the Health Service and the voluntary sector. They were beginning to approach us to secure funding for various activities. We decided to offer them the opportunity to come together in a consultative forum where we could at least have an even-handed approach to them all. It is not a statutory body but a group we have brought together. I am chairing it on a temporary basis until such time as its members feel it has become sufficiently sophisticated to determine its own chairmanship.

2242.

At present we send someone to the consultative forum, spanning the public, private and voluntary sectors on a rotational basis to maintain contact with develop­ments in Great Britain. It is a purely consultative forum. We speak to them about things we do and try to get a common view across each of the sectors on what our policy should be.

2243.

Mr Byrne: It is therefore a loose gathering, and that worries me. Given the fact that all of us, and the T&EA in particular, should have the objective of better-quality training, why can we not opt for something with more teeth and a more meaningful role? It seems that NTOs are setting themselves up here on a voluntary basis largely because of NVQ-type accreditation and standards. We need a more focused approach and a statutory forum.

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