COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

2244.

Mr Scott: The issue of quality is important for us as well as for you. Quality systems are in place for NVQs and other vocational qualifications. The QCA in Great Britain has an office in Belfast. It has a set of quality standards and carries out the verification and validation of NVQs. The awarding bodies also carry out validation and quality checks on the application of NVQ standards. Those accredited to provide NVQ training in Northern Ireland carry out internal quality checks. All that is covered by an agreement between the QCA and the awarding bodies. The awarding bodies mainly link into the NTOs, although not in every case. A series of quality checks ensures that the outcomes of training, the NVQs, are properly dealt with and accredited. That has only been questioned in a few cases.

2245.

To achieve value for money as a department, we have the Education and Training Inspectorate look at our training contractors. We have a whole series of quality checks in place to try to ensure value for money and the right outcomes for people participating in training.

2246.

Mr Byrne: That begs the question of whether we feel training in Northern Ireland is of such high quality that we need not change it. Are we all happy with the status quo, or do we feel there is a real need to develop training for groups hitherto not afforded the opportunity?

2247.

Mr Scott: Your question raises a number of fundamental issues. The content and standard of NVQs are first determined by a sectoral group within the awarding body which will decide on type, level and content and submit its decision to the QCA for approval. After approval and accreditation, the content and standard of the qualification are determined. As industry is deciding the content and quality of qualifications, we should be satisfied with that, since we are not here to second-guess industry.

2248.

However, there is a whole raft of things outside that area which must be addressed separately from NVQs. For example, the Open College network, which is outside the NVQ system, has a number of accredited courses - for example, in basic skills - which are aimed at people who do not seek to achieve a high level of NVQ training. The CCEA in Northern Ireland has a role in GNVQs and has brought vocational GCSEs and so on into the picture. The CCEA in Northern Ireland will have a role in local quality standards. Having allowed that to happen, our concern is therefore that the system of quality auditing which has been set up is working well and providing the right courses to the right people. We must identify those people and ensure they have access to the right training at a time which suits them. The whole life-long learning process has been about that.

2249.

Mr Dallat: In my innocence, I cannot resist asking you this. I was only coming to terms with expressions like NVQs, and now I shall have to cope with NTOs, STCs, GNVQs and the QCA - how will that ever mean anything to the ordinary man in the street?

2250.

Mr Scott: That will always be a problem for us all. People have got used to GCSEs and so on. This is a language issue to which we must adjust. I know the CCEA has recently issued a leaflet to help employers understand the various roles and comparators for qualifications so as to simplify it for the man in the street.

2251.

Mr Dallat: Do you accept that there is a need for plain English now?

2252.

Mr Scott: Absolutely. We all wish that, and we all want to make it a way of achieving parity of esteem between the various types of qualifications.

2253.

Mr Dallat: I shall commit the deadly sin of asking you if there is equal recognition of NTOs and STCs by employers and training organisations in and outside of Northern Ireland. Will the NTOs continue to be recognised for national occupational standards and NVQ purposes? If you have retained all that up to now, will the proposed consultative forum take on any responsibility for accreditation or the recognition of training qualifications?

2254.

Mr Scott: The first and last parts of your question seem rather intertwined, since they concern qualifications. We have a totally open mind on what results from the consultation. However, we bear very much in mind that Northern Ireland is different from the rest of the UK, just as Scotland and Wales are different, and that there are a number of specific things we may need to do. For example, if you look at the documentation, you shall see it suggests an NTO might consist of up to 500,000 employees. There are around 650,000 people working in Northern Ireland, and if we have 73 NTOs, that figure seems rather high.

2255.

Simplification may well be needed in Northern Ireland. Our policy on qualifications is to continue to keep them at a national level, largely because of that scale. To have separate qualifications right across the various skill sectors for Northern Ireland alone could be quite intensive as regards labour application and resources. Again, however, we are open-minded on where that takes us.

2256.

I thought that when you said neutral qualification, you were going to lead me into a North-South discussion, because we have been working on that front to ensure that qualifications gained in both jurisdictions can be recognised.

2257.

Mutual recognition by English employers and Northern Irish employers is an issue because those are voluntary organisations. You cannot force employers to become part of them or force them to recognise them because they work on a voluntary basis. Because of the different circumstances in Northern Ireland - the skills work we are having to do and indeed the pool of the Irish labour market in a number of sectors - encouraging employers is not the best that we can do. We are also trying to take alongside the central view of what those skills issues might be.

2258.

Mrs Carson: Thank you very much. The information that we got before the meeting said that the agenda for this arrangement in NTOs has now changed. It is proposed that, instead of the establishment of an overarching body, a consultative forum will be established. Who has proposed this?

2259.

It is also stated that the reasons for that proposal are linked largely to funding implications. Was it funding considerations alone which contributed to the decision not to establish the council?

2260.

Mr Scott: In a previous consultative document which was issued nationally, it was indicated that Northern Ireland would set up a central organisation to manage the umbrella group of NTOs operating here. The Northern Ireland Training Council Association, which was the umbrella body for all STCs, was already in operation. I am trying to get away from the alphabet soup for the moment, but that was already in operation and covered the whole private sector.

2261.

It was considered in consultation with the various sectors that to form another body with another secretariat, including an umbrella body for a group of STCs as part of its membership, would just be confusing. We have formed the consultative committee to try to reach a clear view on where we go in Northern Ireland in relation to NTOs. They are all in the same room now and are all talking about the same issues. If that leads to a further proposal for some sort of overarching body, we shall certainly consider it.

2262.

We want to see the outcome of the current round of consultations before we make any final decision. We have no proposal at present beyond the consultative forum.

2263.

Mrs Carson: Do you make a proposal, or do you make a decision?

2264.

Mr Scott: In what context?

2265.

Mrs Carson: If it is decided, will your grouping get the consultative body? Can they decide what is being done, or can they make a proposal to someone else?

2266.

Mr Scott: Yes. Since Ms McGill and I are both in that part of the Department, we are mainly concerned with helping ensure that sectors, companies and others with skill needs have a direct line into the Department through us.

2267.

They can make proposals without difficulty. We are not in any way bound to accept the proposals. Our job is rather about reaching accommodation with people and helping them along a particular route.

2268.

Ms McGill: At the last consultative forum meeting, all the members were particularly interested in getting the outcome of the consultation exercise which has taken place across the entire UK. Once these are known, we will be able to proceed with decisions.

2269.

Mrs Carson: The proposals then come back to the Department. Are elected people also part of the consultation?

2270.

Mr Scott: No, with the exception of our normal relationship with elected representatives.

2271.

In the Programme for Government and your look at our budget, you gave us some sort of authority to get on with the job. Such consultations would embrace a level of working detail. However, in the case of a policy decision in relation to the outcome of consultation, you would come to the Assembly Committee.

2272.

Mrs Carson: That was what I was trying to tease out, Mr Chairman.

2273.

Mrs Nelis: Good afternoon. I find this all very confusing, but if I give it some close reading I might come to some kind of understanding. Are the strategies you have talked about here today - the development of skills training in the North of Ireland - not going to proceed along a route similar to that of the United Kingdom? That would mean via STCs rather than NTOs. Can assurances be given that that will not be in any way detrimental to the development and provision of skills training?

2274.

If we are not to proceed along the United Kingdom route, shall we proceed at all along a cross-­border one? Already I see that, in the recognition of exams, there is a need for mutually accepted vocational qualifications, and people are already doing them. There is mutual recognition of NVQs and their Irish equivalents, and that has been achieved in several skill areas; and further recognitions are expected. We must be very clear about certain developments and we certainly need clarification of where we are going - for employers as well as trainees.

2275.

Mr Scott: Perhaps I might take the latter part of your comment first. On the question of mutual recognition, you understand that NVQs are for England, Wales and Northern Ireland, Scotland having its own system. When we get mutual recognition to the point where we have reached agreement, it becomes an East/West issue in the sense that then the qualifications authority and the awarding body in England must then agree on mutual recognition. However, to date we have not had any difficulty whatsoever with that.

2276.

Of course there is the wider issue that our young people are working more and more in mainland Europe, never mind throughout Ireland, and mutual recognition across the Continent is becoming an issue. We bear all that in mind as we move forward, and on an individual basis we are working through various sectors to look at mutual recognition. Plumbing and electrical engineering each have mutual recognition since there has always been a great deal of movement North and South in those sectors.

2277.

We are trying to ensure that the Skills Task Force creates various kinds of work and identifies the wider needs in Northern Ireland. We think the STCs and the private sector could help us with the other micro needs and enhance our knowledge of them. Working jointly across the spectrum, we are trying to get it right.

2278.

We believe that our responses are more flexible and quicker than England or Wales, for we are nearer the market. We do not intend slavishly to follow what happens in England, Wales or Scotland. We have regard to them in our policy making, and we have demonstrated that through a number of projects where we run training programmes unique in the UK. We look at the work of our colleagues in Foras Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS) in the Republic of Ireland. We have just been to New York with them, and there is also an element of co-operation in that respect.

2279.

The Chairperson: It seems to me that there is a fundamental issue here. What is the best way of determining the skills gaps, both now and forthcoming? Is it by a top-down process or one from the grass roots? Does it originate with the sectors or the employers? I put it in those terms since in the UK-wide document, NTOs are seen as taking on three core roles - assessing and articulating the current and future skills needs of their sectors, leading action on sector skills development and actively reviewing progress in meeting skills priorities.

2280.

You were saying earlier, Mr Scott, that from the T&EA point of view there is an "agnosticism" about where this process ends. However, it strikes me that, if Northern Ireland were to follow that sort of practice, it would really imply that NTOs required a very wide range of powers.

2281.

They would become correspondingly strong. As I understand it to some extent that would differ, from the current means that the T&EA has set up to try and identify the skills gap, which seem to be fairly centralised at the agency. I am not saying any of this necessarily by way of criticism; it is more a description of how I see matters have worked out. Tell me if I am wrong.

2282.

It may well be - and I should be interested in your view on this - that the UK-wide view on the broader role of NTOs is simply unrealistic. I understand that there is some evidence that NTOs in Great Britain have not worked well because private sector employees cannot really be persuaded to participate to any great extent or provide much by way of market intelligence. There is a fundamental issue of how far the identification of the gap should be centralised in the T&EA. How far do you allow it to develop in the sectors before feeding back to yourselves? There is also the question of feasibility. Does a market-led, private-­sector approach to the identification of skills gaps - based on the experience in Great Britain to date - necessarily work?

2283.

Mr Scott: There is room for both approaches. There is clear potential for sound research-based information to tell us where Northern Ireland plc is going regarding future skills needs. Some of those skills needs may not be readily identified on the shop floor - at company level - since companies are looking at their needs for the immediate future. Who would have predicted that the telecommunications industry would change so much over five years?

2284.

There is room for both. That is where we should like to end up - with a strong research-based, labour market information needs system, backed up by industry telling us where we have got it wrong and right and where it sees things going in general. That adds value to what is otherwise just a set of figures. That is where we should like to be at some point with the Skills Task Force. That is why it has decided to begin looking at sectoral organisations and work with them to see where we might take this. I do not know whether that answers your question.

2285.

The Chairperson: It does. Thank you. Are there any other questions?

2286.

Mr Dallat: You made some small reference to lifelong learning. Can we assume that, for some people, life really will begin at 40? That is my awkward way of saying that we have a birthday girl in the room today who needs reassurance that this is the case.

2287.

Mr Scott: We shall try to reassure her about that.

2288.

Mr Byrne: We had people from Shorts Bombardier here recently, and they had a good story to tell about how the company is performing - how employment is expanding, and how they have an in-house training scheme. We were all impressed by what we heard. Will the T&EA, as part of its consultative work, look at the good practice of those who have employer-led schemes, perhaps learning from them and trying to apply the generic benefits which can accrue right across the region?

2289.

Mr Scott: Undoubtedly. We have worked extremely closely with Shorts Bombardier in recent years and helped the company with its current expansion. I should like to think it would acknowledge that quite positively. It has been a good story of partnership between government and a company, not only to expand its workforce, but to widen it. We have all learned a great deal. We have worked with other companies who have difficulty in finding and retaining staff. We are working with a number of such companies at the moment to develop in-house lifelong learning and workplace learning possibilities.

2290.

As much as we can, we love to hear about and follow good practice. However, we are conscious that Northern Ireland is a small-business economy, and not every small business can afford all the structures which go along with best practice. We keep that in mind as we develop our approach to the matter.

2291.

Mr Byrne: Mr Chairman, that is the real challenge. If you look through the written evidence submitted today, you will see it is probably the SMEs which are losing out at present. That is why we need a statutory umbrella organisation for training which can facilitate their needs. I agree with you that SMEs do not have the resources or man hours to devote to training people on the job. The T&EA has a real responsibility to meet their needs.

2292.

Mr Scott: The issue of a statutory authority is clearly not for us. When we finish the consultation, there may be proposals and recommendations about that. However, we are conscious that simply translating or parachuting the NTO regime into Northern Ireland may not always work - for the simple reason that we do not have enough big companies to sustain it. For example, the training council for the engineering industry includes British Aerospace and all the large car companies. They can generate a great deal of high level business. The local Engineering Training Council has done very well considering that it is made up mainly of small companies.

2293.

Mr Carrick: Has anything been learned from the experience of having 13 NTOs in Northern Ireland and the fact that only one of them is statutory?

2294.

Mr Scott: As there is such a difference between construction and other industries it is difficult to make a decent comparison. One reason why the Construction and Industry Training Board (CITB) is still a statutory body is that labour subcontracting in the industry means that there are no employers to train those who need it. The impact of health and safety issues on training in construction is so powerful that to minimise accidents, it is essential that people be trained to the right level. The fragmented nature of the industry was a strong argument for keeping the CITB. That argument does not apply equally across all of the sectors, and it is difficult to make a comparison.

2295.

The Chairperson: The other interesting thing about the CITB is that it kept the levy. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think that any other sectors have a levy arrangement. There is an argument - I suppose there is an economic theory behind it - that the training market does not work well if it is left to private sector incentives, because employers say, "Why should I train employees when they will only be poached by other companies?" That was the logic used in the past to justify levies. Perhaps this is an unfair question, but I shall ask it anyway. Do you have any comments on the issue of introducing a new carrot-­and-stick approach to give employers either positive or negative incentives to train?

2296.

Mr Scott: I shall try not to be too opinionated, for the Committee will have its own thoughts. Leaving aside what happened in Great Britain, the experience that led to the wind-up of the industry training boards in Northern Ireland was that, with relatively small sectors, the cost of managing the levy's collection from a sector's employers was 20% to 25% of the income. That was then given back to employers in grant form. You were basically taking money from people and then returning it, having added little value.

2297.

Another issue was that many of the training boards worked on what they called a levy remission system. They paid their money and then got it back if they had a training plan that satisfied the training board. The cost of policing that was enormous, so it was not always particularly effective. That is the experience of the past.

2298.

There are some pilot schemes in parts of England where local employers' groups are coming together to ensure that, if poaching occurs, the employee who leaves takes a bounty with them. The investment in training is measured, and members of such consortia actually exchange money to account for the cost of training when employees move.

2299.

We await the outcome of those voluntary pilots.

2300.

The Chairperson: The following picks one anecdotal case, albeit concerning what was in the past a significant employer. Half the workers in Harland & Wolff were literally flown in from Scotland and the north of England. That begs the question - why did Harland & Wolff not train Northern Ireland people to be fitters and so on, as opposed to flying people in? I suppose the answer is probably that it was cheaper, but such practices obviously create problems for the economy as a whole.

2301.

Mr Scott: It was not just an issue of people being cheaper. We engaged with Harland & Wolff on a number of occasions to train local people for the industry. Harland & Wolff decided to have a core group of skilled people, with contractors handling the rest. People in Northern Ireland were not used to the idea of working a given number of weeks at a time, so the people from England would come from an oil rig, work for Harland & Wolff, and go back. That transfer caused the problem as much as anything else.

2302.

Mr Beggs: I accept that there are 73 NTO bodies but, since Northern Ireland is much smaller, it would be difficult for all 73 to operate here. There are, however, 15 NTO groups. Is there not some logic in changing the STCs into NTO groups so that the entire area of training would be covered? At present many areas are not covered.

2303.

Mr Scott: The STCs in Northern Ireland see themselves as independent of the NTO.

2304.

Mr Beggs: But are they not dated? We are talking about 10 years ago.

2305.

Mr Scott: If they simply became part of the NTOs they might say that some of their Northern Ireland flavour would be lost. They would have to make that decision in full knowledge of all the circumstances. Where there is no STC, however, we are happy to see what develops in relation to the amalgamation of NTOs in Northern Ireland. If, for example, there were one NTO for the whole of the voluntary sector, it would make life much easier for everybody. To be fair, the way in which the voluntary sector works to achieve co-operation in Northern Ireland would mean it might not be difficult. The difficulty is with all other sectors.

2306.

Mr Beggs: Is there any self-interest in the STCs' continuing without evolving? Are they the right people to make that decision?

2307.

Mr Scott: They are neither the right nor the only people to make that final decision. We shall be informed by consultation in the document. If the opinion is overwhelmingly that they should do something, we would implement an agreed policy to encourage them to fit in with it.

2308.

The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee, I thank you both. Our talk has been extremely helpful, and we are very grateful to you. We have managed to get through most of the matters we wanted to discuss, but we may wish to submit some written questions. Thank you very much. We wish you well.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 29 March 2001

Members present:

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Mr R Hutchinson

Ms McWilliams

Witness:

Mr H Hastings ) Hastings Hotels Group

2309.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon and thank you for coming along. I apologise for the number of members present; I do not think it has anything to do with today's subject matter. It is related to all sorts of things beyond our control.

2310.

As you know, the Committee is conducting a general inquiry into the adequacy, or otherwise, of the training system in the context of economic development and industry in the Province. The Committee appreciates that hotel and catering makes up a large sector with huge growth potential.

2311.

Mr Hastings: Thank you for inviting me along this afternoon. I am delighted that the Committee has recognised the value of tourism within the economy and the influence of the education sector in contributing to its success.

2312.

I am Howard Hastings, the managing director of Hastings Hotels. We have six hotels in Northern Ireland and one in the South. I am also president of the Northern Ireland Hotels Federation, and I served on the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) board for seven years, up until earlier this year. I am a board member of Investors in People UK, which I believe is probably a standard with which members of this Committee are already familiar. I am a former governor of Castlereagh College of Further Education, and, of less interest to this Committee, I am a member of the joint North/South marketing body, Tourism Ireland Ltd.

2313.

I have given you details of what Hastings Hotels is about in the briefing pack. The company has 850 full-time and between 850 and 1,000 part-time staff. Of the full-time staff, 25% would have post-second level qualifications. We have had people qualify with NVQs from levels 1 to 5 in the company, and we are the only company in our sector that is licensed by the T&EA to offer modern apprenticeship programmes in-house. We spend approximately 5% of our payroll annually on training and development within the company.

2314.

The terms of the Committee's brief are wide, so I am going to give a snapshot on how my company interfaces with the various constituent elements of the Government sectors that are the subject of your scrutiny. I will now briefly address the five points I noted on the front of my submission. The first is our company's interface with higher education.

2315.

We run two group-wide management development programmes each year. The first one has about 20 participants and offers successful candidates an NVQ level 3 together with a certificate in management practice. The second one is smaller at a higher level and offers 10 participants an NVQ level 4 together with a diploma in management practice if they pass. These courses cost between £1,000 and £1,500 per candidate.

2316.

The programme was designed to meet the company's needs and was tendered to the marketplace. The contract was awarded to the University of Ulster at Jordanstown, to the School of Business and Management, which delivers the programme in conjunction with the School of Hospitality and its cohort of lecturing staff. This collaboration has worked well for us, and I believe it is unique in this sector. Interestingly, a recent evaluation of the School of Hospitality gave it a score of 23 out of 24, which I believe in university terms is a remarkable accolade. So it shows what the School of Hospitality at the University of Ulster is capable of delivering both for undergraduates and for those in the industry alike.

2317.

Broadening that subject, I think it is bizarre that the university vice-chancellor, Gerry McKenna, appears to be ignoring industry advice and - without a great deal of consultation with either the industry or with his high performing staff - is looking to relocate the School of Hospitality to Coleraine to become a subset of the biosciences faculty. I am sorry if I am offending anyone, but I am just telling it as I see it.

2318.

My company's interface with further education is poor because further education does not perceive me as its customer. The funding that the hospitality sector gets from Government is apparently £12 million per annum. Colleges offer courses that suit them and the Government to run, and too few of those students ever turn up on my payroll. That is to be regretted.

2319.

For instance, colleges apparently run 26 types of course at NVQ level 3. This provision is ill co-ordinated and ill-marketed, albeit that the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment (DHFETE) inspectors say that it is well delivered. Colleges do not know where their students go and are not rewarded for their ability to make their charges employable or to secure them employment. My contact with colleges - or those parts of DHFETE that fund colleges - is infrequent. To claim that the £12 million spend is on the hospitality sector is, I believe, bogus because the outputs are so ill-defined.

2320.

This will only change when the funding mechanisms enable myself, my company, and other companies in my sector to become customers. I do not believe that we, as a sector, have all the answers to our own training requirements, but the current arrangements do not encourage companies to take ownership and responsibility for their own training. That is the key to delivering better results in this area.

2321.

I will move onto the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and the Department of Education issues affecting the company. What we increasingly find is that we are in conflict with further education as we are in competition with them to attract school leavers. Therefore further education would not encourage our industry to develop good relationships with secondary education, because it would be in danger of having the bread taken from its mouth, as far as funding is concerned.

2322.

Within the Department of Education for Northern Ireland system, there is insufficient GNVQ provision for those wishing to take the vocational route into the hospitality industry, a sector which is set to grow. Interestingly, to overcome this problem, I have been working on a pilot project with the South Eastern Education and Library Board, called Learning Through Work. In some companies in the North Down area, including Valpar, Munster Simms and the Ulster Hospital Trust, we replaced the traditional week-long student placement with one where students could go one day a week to the company, for a period of perhaps six or seven weeks. During that time they were able to gain accreditation for part of the GNVQ that they are doing in company and in school time.

2323.

The students undertaking this course have had a much higher level of motivation than those doing the traditional week-long work placement. There has been a full evaluation of the scheme by Cecil Holmes of the Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examin­ations and Assessment. Perhaps that is something that your members might wish to follow up. There is a better way to encourage the secondary school sector to engage with industry at an earlier stage, but it will require an impetus to allow for space for this in the curriculum.

2324.

As regards in-company trading, and our relation­ship with the Training and Employment Agency, the Committee will be familiar with the company develop­ment programme, which is the keynote line of expendi­ture which would affect our company. This has proved to be a good model for our industry. It comes back to the ownership point, which I made earlier, where one agrees a plan with the Training and Employment Agency in advance, and sets about delivering it.

2325.

The initial rate of funding at 35% to 40% was more appropriate because the Training and Employment Agency was paying on outcomes. One has to take account of the attrition level that exists because of employees that are taken on and trained but for one reason or another do not provide outcomes.

2326.

The Chairperson: Who administers the company development programme? Generally it would be the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment rather than the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment. Is it the same in the hospitality sector?

Top

<< Prev / Next >>