COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

2057.

Mr Lavery: The United Kingdom Government have asked for rationalisation of the National Training Organisations (NTOs), which map out the standards for the various industrial sectors. They are also considering the rationalisation of vocational awards, which have been around for a long time.

2058.

Mr Beggs: Will that rationalisation automatically occur in Northern Ireland or will we have to initiate it?

2059.

Ms Gormley: The rationalisation will apply if Northern Ireland continues to use the national qualifi­cations framework.

2060.

The Chairperson: The way that you framed that response implies that there is some thinking that we might not. Is there a debate about that at the moment?

2061.

Ms Gormley: In our thinking, there is no debate. It has not been suggested to us that we might not adopt the national qualifications framework or that there should be a parallel or different framework in Northern Ireland.

2062.

Mr Byrne: The Committee is beginning to come to terms with the complexity and multiplicity of training qualifications and standards. There are two pathways, the vocational General National Vocational Qualifications (GNVQs) and the occupational NVQ. What is the role of the Training and Employment Agency in relation to the NTOs and QCA in drawing up standards and parameters for courses? There is some concern that there is no standardisation across the delivery of the courses or between different training organisations. There is real concern about how we measure the quality of training. We must think of the trainees, be they young people or long-term unemployed.

2063.

Have you a view about the quality or merit of GNVQs in comparison with, say, BTEC Nationals? What is your view of the content and outcomes of the GNVQs? Has there been any recent quality testing of the outcome of the work of training organisations in NVQs?

2064.

Ms Gormley: You have raised the issue of quality. At present, there is a review taking place of the NTOs and their UK-wide remit. They were originally established to draw up the occupational standards upon which qualifications, particularly NVQs, were based. Over the years, people have asked whether NTOs engage with employers or whether they really represent employers. There has been particular concern that employers in Northern Ireland were not engaged. QCA has set about ensuring that that happens. QCA fulfils a liaison role between NTOs, sectoral training councils and, more importantly, sectors that are not represented in the sectoral training council network. There is a vast array of sectors, such as the community, voluntary, health and childcare sectors, that are not part of the priority skill areas that are being identified by the Training and Employment Agency. There are a number of areas that are recognised as sectors but are not part of sectoral training councils.

2065.

Through the standards development programme, the QCA has ensured that there is effective consultation in Northern Ireland with all those sectors. That ensures that when standards are developed the specific legislative, geographical and other issues to do with Northern Ireland are taken into consideration. With regard to standards, QCA is satisfied that they are taking the Northern Ireland perspective into account and are meeting the needs of employers.

2066.

The Training and Employment Agency has engaged with sectoral training councils in Northern Ireland to help develop sector-specific training and identify specific training needs, which are then matched with the NTO standards that are being developed for NVQs and other qualifications. That produces programmes such as modern apprenticeships and traineeships. That is the mechanism. The Training and Employment Agency engages the work of NTOs where it sees it as being of relevance to Northern Ireland and adopts the same frameworks and models. The funding might alter because Northern Ireland might have its own priorities and skills agenda.

2067.

Mr Lavery will deal with the delivery arrange­ments. I am inviting him to make a comment about the other qualifications that you have mentioned, although we do not have a remit.

2068.

Mr Byrne: Considering the role of the QCA and the role of the Training and Employment Agency as a co-ordinating body, who takes the lead in standard accreditation and monitoring of NVQs and GNVQs?

2069.

Ms Gormley: The QCA takes the lead in relation to the work that it does as a regulatory body. However, the development and design of training programmes, the establishment of training providers, the recognition of training arrangements and the funding of training are not in the remit of QCA. They are within the agency's remit.

2070.

Mr Lavery: NVQs measure the outcome of the training and the assessment of it. The training itself is monitored through the Training and Employment Agency's staff. They fund that and monitor the funding for that training. When NVQs were in vogue around 1993, the then Secretary of State for Education, Gillian Shephard, asked for the regional offices' views because it was noticed that centres were not performing to an acceptable level for NVQs.

2071.

At that time awarding bodies were not carrying out the quality assurance regime as they should have been to ensure that every award met its expected standard. Since 1996, QCA has visited centres and identified key areas. A number of centres were falling down in some areas. I will not go into the detail but we can provide it if it is required.

2072.

There were three or four specific areas in which centres were falling down because the awarding bodies - the people who issue the certificates - were not monitoring the work on the ground.

2073.

We have made sure that awarding bodies do now carry out that monitoring work, and we substantively test that work by visiting centres and awarding bodies. On the final quality of the award, we like to think that all awards involve the same amount of rigour, while still allowing flexibility for the training to be provided by whatever means are possible.

2074.

NVQs are provided in many different areas. You have the workplace, through employment. You have the colleges, through full-time education and work place­ments, and you have training providers. People can spend a few days with the training provider and a number of days in work placements. NVQs are designed to be flexible. Some people tend to think that there is a difference in what goes into an NVQ, but the NVQ does not measure what goes in - it measures what comes out. It measures whether a person is competent. We like to think, through the systems that we have in place to ensure that the awarding bodies quality assure everyone to the same standards, that the qualification that people receive will receive the same level of recognition across the UK.

2075.

Another organisation has responsibility for looking after the quality and content of GNVQs. The standards for GNVQs at the time that they were initially designed were seen as relevant to the sectors. I know that the engineering GNVQ was seen as relevant. However, as you say, there are alternatives. There are BTECs, for example. As I have not done any research into it, I would not like to make any general comment at this stage.

2076.

Ms Gormley: There is a nationally agreed programme of scrutiny. Although we are saying that we do not have a direct remit for the quality of GNVQs, we are involved in the overall national programme. We are engaged in some aspects of that work in relation to Northern Ireland.

2077.

Mr Byrne: It is perceived that there is great variety in the quality of outcomes. I do not believe that there is enough scrutiny that is in the interest of young people. In some training organisations it is relatively easy to get an NVQ, while in others it is quite difficult. Somebody will have to be brave enough to say "Let us have real standardisation".

2078.

Finally, I want to comment on the practice of depending on the NVQ and GNVQ organisations to do the monitoring. For GNVQs, there used to be a system whereby a moderator was appointed to make three visits per year to a college. That is now reduced to one. Given that it is now largely in-course assessment, I am not sure that we are moving towards better standardisation.

2079.

Mr Lavery: I will take up the point about the NVQs. People constantly tell us that there are differing standards. When we go to check, we find that the criteria laid down by the standards body have been met. We openly invite anyone to provide us with information regarding differing standards in NVQs. We will follow up any such claim. We are keen to stamp out any difference in the standard of the qualification.

2080.

Mrs Nelis: Thank you for your presentation. You spoke earlier about the workplace, the colleges and the training providers. I want to ask about the element of the work that involves identifying vocational qualifications to meet the understanding and knowledge needed for particular jobs. On which jobs or sectors do you focus?

2081.

Ms Gormley: Is that a reference to the work on the development of other vocational qualifications and technical certificates?

2082.

Mrs Nelis: Yes.

2083.

Ms Gormley: That was a more interesting develop­ment. It stemmed primarily from the Department for Education and Employment's request to QCA to start identifying vocational qualifications that will be aligned more closely to NVQs. In Northern Ireland, we have told the Department for Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment that we will keep a brief on those developments, because the Department has asked QCA to work closely with NTOs. NTOs have been asked to begin to identify, with the awarding bodies, what existing qualifications might, with some minor tweaking, attest to the knowledge and understanding requirements of NVQs. BTECs are a good example of this.

2084.

The work taken forward in England has been specifically developed to support the review and reform of the modern apprenticeship frameworks in that country. For some time now quite a number of the modern apprenticeship frameworks have identified a specific, knowledge-based qualification that underpins and supports the NVQ. That is recognition that in some cases, particularly in the modern apprenticeship arrange­ments, young people will need an input, not just an output. It is not sufficient to assess them as competent; they need some training input as well.

2085.

In programmes like the modern apprenticeship the standardisation, will become much more evident as it rolls out in traineeships. Young people will have a definite foundation in relation to their vocational qualification, and they will move, quite rightfully, into a proper workplace where they will prove occupational competence.

2086.

Moreover, we have found of course that when NVQs are awarded and delivered in the right context, which is the workplace, standardisation is rarely an issue. It is not in an employer's interests to fail to attain the highest possible benchmark in NVQ awards.

2087.

You are correct that it is quite difficult to measure the amount of input. We must recognise that it is possible to find different standards in the amount of input provided to a young person. Our rule of thumb is to ensure that they have gained the necessary level of competence at the output stage at least, no matter how they may have achieved it. However, we do not have a great deal of responsibility over the training and input that they receive. I hope that that has answered your question about development.

2088.

Mrs Nelis: I could ask about much more.

2089.

Ms Gormley: As I said, we will continue to monitor it and to advise the Department.

2090.

The Chairperson: How do you perform the auditing role, which is crucial to your remit, since it is obviously a difficult thing to do? How do you satisfy yourself that the standards in Northern Ireland are the same as those in England, Scotland and Wales? Is there any interaction with your counterparts? Do the auditors move back and forth in the same way that inspectors do in schools and universities?

2091.

Mr Lavery: The original team of auditors was based in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The auditors employed by the Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales still work alongside us. We are occasionally invited to help them carry out small pieces of work in Wales, and that maintains their level.

2092.

We satisfy ourselves that standards are the same in Northern Ireland by visiting all the awarding bodies operating here with colleagues from England. There are only two of us in Northern Ireland, and it would be virtually impossible to cover all of the awarding bodies by ourselves. Therefore, the burden of work is spread across the whole team, and there are currently 13 of us in England and Northern Ireland.

2093.

Ms Gormley: Each year we devise a national programme of monitoring with our colleagues in England. In other words, we decide with them what the priorities should be, and the awards and awarding bodies that should be looked at. We use sources of information derived from Northern Ireland, for example, complaints or issues that we have repeatedly addressed in centres in Northern Ireland. All of that is used to inform the programme, so that we can specify the awards and awarding bodies that we need to focus on. That programme is shared nationally. Therefore there is a considerable degree of interchange among officers who are working on it.

2094.

Mr Lavery: In our Belfast office there is a filing cabinet containing what we classify as intelligence - those pieces of information that were mentioned earlier and which can be of a varying standard. Over time we try to build up a picture and act on it. I hope that we are making a difference.

2095.

The Chairperson: Is your intelligence - or whatever way you want to put it - telling you that the "problem" is getting bigger or smaller?

2096.

Mr Lavery: The problem is getting smaller because we are now a regulator, which I should have mentioned. Our documents have changed over the years. The two original NVQ criteria and guidance, and the original eight-page common accord, were couched in broad terms. As long as people worked within those guidelines, they were not breaking any rules.

2097.

In 1997, we created another set of rules that tightened things, but still allowed for deviation. We have recently introduced a new set that tightens things even more, and those are just bedding in. The problems are getting smaller as we identify them and put controls in place to stop them occurring.

2098.

Mr Byrne: Resources are an underlying issue to which none of us has referred. Finances are vital if we are to have quality NVQs or GNVQs for vocational and educational training. We have not mentioned that. Are the finances generous or less than generous? Are they a constraint on the quality of the input, assessing and examining?

2099.

Ms Gormley: Sources advise us that resources impose considerable constraint. For example, the principle upon which NVQs are based is that they should be taught with the employment of resources and at a time and pace that best meet the needs of the individual - not those of the programmes.

2100.

As soon as we start to package the programme into a resource that is deliverable to a vast number of people, we immediately have a dilemma. If we take those in this room as examples, one person might take three weeks to achieve a fairly high level vocational award in an area in which they had been working for several years, although someone new to that discipline could take a considerable length of time. That example is simplistic, but that is our difficulty.

2101.

The Training and Employment Agency and the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment are the bodies responsible for the funding formulae. People tell us that they experience difficulties, particularly on the time-bound constraints of a programme. They find programme constraints more restrictive than those created by the funding, but the two are intertwined.

2102.

Mr Lavery: One complaint made by the trainers in the centres I recently visited is that the time constraint changes every year, putting them under pressure.

2103.

The Chairperson: The Committee would like to thank Mr Lavery and Ms Gormley. Your submission was immensely interesting. Thank you too for all the material you previously submitted. The area of monitoring qualifications is critically important, and I have little doubt that the Committee will return to it in the future, so I am sure that we will be calling on you again.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 8 March 2001

Members present:

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Mr J Kelly

Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:

Mr A Barron   ) Galen (Pharmaceutical) Division

2104.

The Chairperson: Thank you for coming today. It is very kind of you to attend at short notice.

2105.

We are keen to hear about some of the factors you feel have helped to contribute to the success of your company, especially with reference to training as that is part of our inquiry. I understand there are some special issues regarding people who have backgrounds in chemistry, which you might like to go into.

2106.

Mr Barron: I will give you a brief overview of the company and tell you some of the difficulties.

2107.

Basically, Galen Holdings was formed locally by our chairman, Dr Allen McClay, 30 years ago and is still going strong. It has expanded rapidly and now has a turnover of £160 million. It was £80 million last October, and since the acquisition of Warner Chilcott, the female health care company, we have doubled our turnover.

2108.

We are now a global company based in Northern Ireland, Britain and America. In Northern Ireland there are five subsidiaries. Galen is the non-sterile division, which makes analgesics and antibiotics, and is based in Portadown. Also there is the clinical trials division, which does stage-three clinical trials for the multi-nationals such as Glaxo, Bowringer and companies such as those. Also there is SynGal, which is one of our larger chemical synthesis divisions, based in Craigavon. In Belfast we have Q Chem, which is based in the School of Chemistry at Queen's University. Galen owns 76% of the shares in this company and it is a small-scale chemical synthesis unit. Finally, there is Ivex Pharmaceutical in Larne, which manufactures sterile products such as cardio-­vascular units and intravenous drips.

2109.

There are three divisions in America - Clinical Trials Services (CTS), which is a sister company of CTS here, Warner Chilcott, which I mentioned earlier, and Interactive Clinical Technologies Incorporate (ICTI) - and they focus on Northern Ireland. In 1997, the company shares were floated on the Dublin and London stock markets at £1·70 and are now worth about £9·50. Galen now has 1,800 employees worldwide. We have the best market capitalisation in Northern Ireland and have overtaken the Viridian Group. That is a brief background to the company.

2110.

I will focus on the main concern, which is chemistry. I am pleased that the number of entrants into the School of Chemistry in Queen's University, Belfast (QUB) has improved this year. There are still difficulties in recruiting analysts, chemists, and development chemists.

2111.

The main recruitment problem is synthetic organic chemists, which is a specialised area in the formulation of new drugs. Large multinational customers, like Glaxo or Gilden, might have a new drug for AIDS or breast cancer and would give us the chemical formula, from which we would manufacture the drug. They are known as virtual companies. We cannot get appropriate personnel in Northern Ireland; they are few and far between. We need people that have science degrees, or PhDs, in chemistry. From Queen's University we recruit pharm­acists, pharmacologists, biochemists and chemists.

2112.

Recruitment concerns stem from sociological problems. I have found that children decide to do O-levels and A-levels in physics, chemistry and maths, but they do not know what to do afterwards. If a parent has gone into medicine or dentistry, the children are discouraged from a career in chemistry. Instead, parents and peers encourage them to go into medicine or dentistry. They are unsure about a career in chemistry.

2113.

There are also not many openings in Northern Ireland, apart from Norbrook and ourselves. We currently have a large IDB assisted expansion programme in the pipeline. We need over 150 chemists, particularly in chemical synthesis which will be based in Craigavon.

2114.

Our chairman, Dr Allen McClay, has gone to great lengths to promote chemistry in the Province. He has set up the Dr McClay Trust, to which he has donated millions of pounds, to promote chemistry.

2115.

We have gone to the extent that, last summer, we talked to the Western Education and Library Board and gave 15 chemistry teachers a tour of our Portadown site. We asked them what career they envisaged having with their chemistry degrees, and 99% of them said 'chemistry teachers'. I found it shocking that that was the advice that they were giving to pupils. The problem seems to lie with parents, social peers or the chemistry teachers themselves.

2116.

We now recruit staff from Spain, Germany and France - only two weeks ago we offered a job to a Czech.

2117.

The Chairperson: Can you give us any numbers?

2118.

Mr Barron: There are probably eight or nine currently. SynGal has only been operational for two years. Q Chem has been going for a number of years. We are in a period of expansion, but we will be in serious trouble if we do not fill those posts next year. I have had various meetings with other directors of the company.

2119.

As well as that, we cannot get people for junior posts. They are few and far between. There may be an issue regarding the package of benefits we are offering, and we are addressing that at the moment. It could be argued that Northern Ireland is not big in pharma­ceuticals. Dublin and Cork are the big areas. I think there are 27 chemical/pharmaceutical firms in Cork, and we are sadly lacking here.

2120.

Mrs Nelis: What is the religious breakdown of your workforce?

2121.

Mr Barron: I could not say.

2122.

Mrs Nelis: Would you forward the information to me?

2123.

Mr Barron: Yes.

2124.

Mrs Nelis: Have you sought recruits from Dublin?

2125.

Mr Barron: Yes. We advertise in the 'The Irish Times' and on the Internet.

2126.

Mrs Nelis: You were saying how difficult it was to recruit and that you had to bring people in from overseas.

2127.

Mr Barron: We advertise in many forms of media. We use our own web site and a specific chemistry web site. We advertise in the 'Belfast Telegraph', 'The Irish News' and the 'News Letter'. There is not much response from Northern Ireland. In the south of Ireland we use 'The Irish Times'. There is also a political problem and, as I hinted at earlier, our benefits system, but we know that it is not entirely due to that. We are also advertising in England.

2128.

For example, in Cork, where there are many pharmaceutical firms, people may be interested in moving to a better job. When they find out it is Galen they ask where it is. When they find out it is Northern Ireland they do not want to come here. They ask where abouts Galen is in Northern Ireland, and when you say "Portadown", they say "No chance". It is a big difficulty and it only takes one tiny bit of political instability or civil unrest to upset recruitment. We found that the husbands are willing to move but that it is the wife or spouse who is unwilling to move. That is another issue. We get one or two people from companies such as Pharmacea in County Cork. A lot of our people go south to Sligo, and Galway.

2129.

Mr Carrick: I live in Portadown - I feel quite safe there, as you would maybe understand. We are not hiding from the fact that we have difficulties. We are trying to overcome them. You referred to the meeting you had with 18 teachers from the Western Board. Since the Southern Education and Library Board (SELB) serves Portadown, Craigavon and the general area, I wonder what representations you have made to them in connection with your shortage of labour supply? In particular, what are your links with Banbridge Academy, Portadown College, Lurgan College and the Upper Bann Institute of Further and Higher Education? As a Portadown person I can say that we value the contribution that Galen is making to our area, and Northern Ireland in general. It does seem that there is a macro-image about Galen and that it does not relate to those at grass roots level. If you are going to be recruiting from the local labour market, the links do not appear to be there.

2130.

Mr Barron: The point made concerning the Western Board and the school of chemistry was a political decision whereby we tried to bring in other people. It could easily have resulted in a mixed group from any of the boards. Last Monday of this week, a member of my staff went to meet Dr Audrey McKeown to discuss connections with further and higher institutes. There was a specific question about chemistry and whether they might form a link with Galen to try and promote chemistry. This may be a difficulty, in that the type of chemistry that we are looking for is of a high grade and at present they do not teach chemistry in the grammar schools of Upper Bann.

2131.

Mr Carrick: That difficulty must be overcome. If there is a demand for that type of skill then we must put ourselves in a position to meet that demand and supply those skills for you. Just because there appears to be a difficulty does not mean that there is no way forward. We will have to work to overcome that. How are you trying to encourage grammar schools in the area to look more seriously at the type of chemistry they provide so that their students can move on to Queens University or higher education?

2132.

Mr Barron: We are looking into this. Galen has undergone rapid growth over the last two or three years. SynGal, which did not exist at that time, now has 60 people working there. Q Chem had only five people working there and has now become bigger and bigger. It is now moving too fast for us although we are starting to address this. Following the acquisition of Warner Silcott estates, their influence is pushing us towards more chemistry and the setting up of a new huge laboratory for 150 chemists. We are addressing that issue and we will need to talk with the grammar schools. We have looked to the South, where there are schools of chemistry in counties Mayo and Sligo, and have tried bringing in people from there. We have also brought schoolchildren to have a look. There do not appear to be enough people getting into pure chemistry at Queens although the numbers have increased slightly this year. However, we will need to target the grammar schools.

2133.

Mrs Carson: I am sorry you are having these problems and I am shocked at how great they are. I once worked on the Garvaghy road and had no difficulty working there. I have a son working there at present. However, I hope that it is not all doom and gloom in the Portadown area. I understand your problems in winning over chemistry teachers, especially following an era when industry was not "nice." That will be a problem for the entire industrial sector in Northern Ireland to overcome. Its purpose will be to educate chemistry teachers and parents, as they want to see BA graduates in jobs that are nice and easy and in which there are no problems and no hassle. They forget about the rewards that the industry has other than just pay.

2134.

You must also build up a better rapport with schools in Northern Ireland because, as a Northern Ireland-­based firm, you should be looking to recruit locally.

2135.

I do not think that there is anything wrong with the intellect of the people of Northern Ireland that would make you look elsewhere. Have you considered offering bursaries or scholarships? I know that the services attract some from grammar schools. They find that if they give a bursary or a scholarship then they get the high-fliers. Have you considered that, because it might be one way to get them?

2136.

Mr Barron: It is something we have been talking about. I have been talking to Dr Walker, who is the technical director of Q Chem in Belfast, and he is keen to do something along those lines. We are talking about it at this point in time.

2137.

Mrs Carson: That will not bring anyone in for about three years. If you flag up opportunities it would raise your profile. You should go round all the schools in Northern Ireland.

2138.

Mr Beggs: I suspect that some of your problems stem from society not valuing people who work in industry, and viewing the professions as the be-all and end-all. Can you put on record the kind of wage range you are offering as a starting salary? There should be healthy wages available in order to attract the type of people you are looking for. Wages should not be a problem - or are they?

2139.

Mr Barron: There are very hefty targets to meet. Shareholders want to know exactly what we are doing all the time. Do not get the wrong idea that we are paying poor wages. The wages are not as high as those anywhere else in Britain or Ireland, there is no doubt about it. However, we are addressing that issue as well. A lot of directors are saying that we may be 10% to 20% behind.

2140.

Mr Beggs: Do you think that there are sufficient chemistry courses at higher education levels? Are there enough applicants for those courses? Recently, represent­atives from Bombardier said that there was a weakness in the mathematics and engineering sector. Do you perceive reluctance for people to study chemistry at A-level or at university level?

2141.

My final question is about school careers advice for people going to university. Do you feel that there is a weakness there, and if so what improvements do you suggest? Have you any suggestions from your inter­national contacts? What are they doing differently in related companies in America, to ensure that accurate market information about opportunities is getting to schoolchildren?

2142.

Mr Barron: The salient point is the education system. In my opinion, if there was greater emphasis on chemistry from careers guidance teachers there would be no problem. I know some of the professors in the School of Chemistry, and they would take more students. We have jobs for people. It is a long term objective because we have recently created so many jobs. The reality was that before the Galen group expanded the jobs did not exist. Therefore, people went across the water to where they could use their degrees or PhDs in chemistry or biochemistry. I cannot comment on the systems of our American counterparts. America is the pharmaceutical marketplace - there is no doubt about that. I imagine that chemistry is promoted more in the States, but I cannot say that for certain.

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