COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

1972.

Ms Phillips: We are an international company. At present we have over 70 staff on assignment throughout Bombardier, including many senior people. The only way to get people into the organisation is to recruit them at a lower level and develop them. They get promoted and move up. We do tend to move people across the organ­isation quite substantially. We contribute the largest amount of talent to the rest of Bombardier Aerospace, more than the other three sites. The same transfer of knowledge does not come our way. Staff have an oppor­tunity to relocate themselves and their family for two or three years, taking their skills and experience away with them, and we guarantee them relocation back at Shorts.

1973.

Mr Beggs: I commend you for your work with BIFHE and on the ONC in aeronautical engineering. Have lessons learnt, particularly in relation to the teaching of mathematics, been passed on to the Department of Education and CCEA? You highlighted that as an area of weakness in all your applicants.

1974.

You said that only 12% of young people embarking on an apprenticeship actually reach NVQ level 3. Is that a Northern Ireland wide figure? Why is it so low? What specific areas of improvement do you want? You talked about better governance but can you be more specific, so that we can understand what you are referring to?

1975.

Finally, I note from the statistics that the most common reason for rejecting applicants was failure at the test stage - 1,234 were rejected. What type of test is it? Why are people not achieving the basic skills that you consider are necessary for them to undertake a semi-skilled job with your company?

1976.

Ms Phillips: We use Saville and Holdsworth tests because they are most relevant to the types of jobs that the operators do. Over 4,000 people applied for the process operator positions. We had to be selective about the number of people who would be interviewed. Those 1,200 people had the lowest test scores. After they were taken out, 50% of the semi-skilled people were still in the pool. We use the tests for that particular group in order to reduce the numbers involved.

1977.

We pay some more attention to the tests for apprentices, because there is a high dropout rate there. However, the situation with the process operators is just to do with volume.

1978.

Mr Beggs: Are you still getting the type of employees that you need?

1979.

Ms Philips: Yes, we are still getting employees on the process side of things. We are more concerned about skilled positions and apprentices.

1980.

I am not sure that we can influence the governance of the modern apprenticeship. The colleges should give some commitment to those people undertaking the apprenticeship programme to see them beyond level 2. We find that many people achieve level 2 but do not reach level 3, which is outside our apprenticeship programme.

1981.

Mr McGonigle: Many colleges take the modern apprenticeship on board. They can run courses up to NVQ level 2, but the big problem is that the students must be employed after that. Employers are not picking them up, or there is an abundance of people at that level.

1982.

Mr Beggs: Is 12% a Northern Ireland wide figure?

1983.

McGonigle: Yes, it is.

1984.

On the question of the mathematics project, we believe that we have a role model. We know lecturers are very busy and do not have much spare time. They are measured by the number of people in their class, but our project happens outside the classroom. We got somebody to come into the company, almost on a daily basis, to work on this, to look and help us understand what we were doing. They sat down with us and devised assignments relative to our business. This was then mapped against the curriculum and the NVQ. That made it much more interesting for the kids, and the lecturers learned a great deal too.

1985.

The problem was that the lady lecturer did this in her own time because she had her own classes to do as well. We had hoped to convince the colleges to allow the lecturers time, outside of their teaching duties, to come in and get involved in this. As far as we are concerned, many of the things they do are not relative to the business world and are out of date.

1986.

We took these to the Institute of Mathematics and Applied Mathematics. People from all over the world, including professors, accepted this and thought it was a brilliant role model. We thought we were out of place because they were nearly all from university, but they were very pleased. It actually was in the institute's magazine. We need to be able to take lecturers into industry so they can understand what is going on. They need to be free to come and go, interacting with our own training people as the classes are held in the company. The lady concerned knew as much about what we were doing, during her time with us, as we knew.

1987.

Mr Beggs: Have the lessons been passed to the CCEA and the Department of Education?

1988.

Mr McGonigle: We have not passed it. Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education may have passed it but I do not know.

1989.

The Chairperson: Mr Beggs may be getting at the issue that there is a general problem of fewer and fewer people studying mathematics and physics at GCSE and A Level. There may even be issues on standards at those stages. You have referred to that. As a company using mathematics, physics and scientific skills, what do you think could be done to the Northern Ireland school curriculum, which is currently up for review?

1990.

Mr McGonigle: If we could influence, or help in any way, we would be delighted to do so. Young people find mathematics, science, physics and those types of subjects really difficult. We are probably getting people at the lower end of the GCSE scale because the others are going on to further and higher education.

1991.

Ms Phillips: You really need to have the teachers connecting with industry. You need that partnership and the time for that. I think that is the key.

1992.

Mr Carrick: The contribution your firm makes towards the economic and social development of our country is very much appreciated and valued.

1993.

This whole question of education, training and industry is vitally important to this Committee. In your recommendations you have identified, "gaps in the curriculum" which we have been touching on. You have identified gaps in careers advice and clear gaps in the core basic engineering skills. Bearing that in mind, how responsive is the current education and training system to skills gaps identified in the engineering sector? What should the education and training system be offering to ensure that your particular demand for skills would be met in the immediate and more distant future? In your opinion, what method of skills-­forecasting is the most successful? Finally, what are your views on the current graduate skills in relation to the needs of your industry and how best would they be altered to address your needs?

1994.

Ms Phillips: Regarding responsiveness, it took a lot of encouraging to get the teachers onboard. We almost got to the wire and said "we would prefer to change college to be quite honest with you". However, we did not give in. We had another alternative but we thought, "No, we are going to persevere with this". It took a bit of time but they did come through, but it was hard work. We spent a lot of time arguing, auditing and providing feedback to them about the quality and service they were providing - an example was sometimes teachers not turning up for classes and things like that. So, we got through all of that, they came round and this is the result. The result in that one sector was first class for us.

1995.

Mr Carrick: Are they now a willing partner, or are they still being dragged screaming and kicking?

1996.

Mr McGonigle: It is half-and-half. With mathe­matics, and that type of project where you get integration, participation and partnership, that is fine and we are delighted. But looking at the lecturers on the industrial side, the problem is when those gentlemen and ladies go back into classes after leaving us. These people have a bit of a break but are soon back down to business in their own classes.

1997.

We had been very close to some of them, because some were in our business, but when they go back to lecturing they have no time because they are working on other things and getting involved in other projects. Our project is the least of their concerns because they have a different focus.

1998.

Mr Carrick: There is a weakness in the structure.

1999.

Mr McGonigle: Yes there is.

2000.

Ms Phillips: There are different targets. They have targets to achieve, which are education targets and not necessarily education and transfer of knowledge targets and that is the problem.

2001.

The skills forecasting is a good question. It is difficult enough for us to manpower plan for 12 months ahead. On the skill side, the best approach is to continue to work on the basic skills. We bring people in at a basic level and can develop them - most organis­ations do. But if they do not have that strong foundation, it is very hard to instil that into people when they come in at an older age.

2002.

Mr McGonigle: We now have to take retired people in to help us, people who are ex-Government training centre instructors. We have been running a nightshift, training people on the nightshift as well as on the dayshift. However, there are no trainers around. Colleges will say "it will take us six months to get this going" or "we do not do that anymore". I am talking here about the colleges, that have taken over the GTCs. There are just no people there anymore. We have used 7 or 8 former GTC instructors, who had long since retired, to try and get the skills again. We will have problems when these people decide they are not going to do this any longer.

2003.

The Chairperson: Can you clarify that? These people were instructors in training centres and are on your workforce now because you cannot get other people by the normal means.

2004.

Mr McGonigle: We have seven instructors of our own and we are not going to employ new instructors because we can cope in normal circumstances. In the past, when we got a huge intake like now, we looked to the GTCs and the Training and Employment Agency, but we cannot do that any more. You go along to the technical colleges, Newtownabbey, for instance and find they do not do engineering any more. Dundonald GTC is no longer available and Felden is not doing anything in engineering any more. We have not gone to Craigavon because it is a bit far away from us. We then start to look for instructors. We find that the only way the T&EA can help is to give names of people who have retired and help us recruit those people.

2005.

Mr Carrick: I would invite you down to Craigavon. It is only 30 miles down the motorway.

2006.

Ms Phillips: The cost of that service has sub­stantially increased since the Government training centres have closed. The difference in the cost is incredible. Where we would bring people in-house to do it, other companies would not be able to afford that cost.

2007.

Mr Carrick; The other issue is the graduate skills. What are your views, and how best can they be altered, if necessary, to address your needs?

2008.

Ms Phillips: This year we shall be bringing in 35 to 40 graduates. We have just completed our advertise­ment, and will be ready to interview in about four weeks. The difference with graduates now is that they are spread across the organisation. They are not solely engineering graduates, but business graduates too.

2009.

Our difficulty with graduates is that the IT industry is so attractive. They pay much more than we do to bring graduates in. Many IT companies go into the university and take the whole class, thinking they are sorted. That is another example of people not thinking in the longer term. On the graduate side, we are probably not the most attractive employer, but we shall bring in 30 to 40 graduates this year. I am not sure how to answer the question of improving the skills of the graduate intake.

2010.

Mr McGonigle: In the past we took in mainly engineering graduates, taking a mixture from Queen's and the University of Ulster roughly in equal numbers. The graduates of both universities were of a very high standard and we did not have any complaints. Having said that, we probably felt we were not as close to the universities as we would have liked. There was perhaps not enough industrial involvement between ourselves and the university. Probably neither of us knew where the graduates were going.

2011.

Along with Queen's and the University of Ulster at Jordanstown we started the Integrated Graduate Develop­ment Scheme (MSc) in Northern Ireland, which is a model from Warwick University. We make an input into all the subject matter. Once a year an advisory board meets in Queen's University and we contribute to that, but there is not the integration we would like.

2012.

Mr Carrick: Has that supply diminished? Are you taking 35 because that is all you need, or can you not get the engineering graduates?

2013.

Ms Phillips: That is all we need, and not many of those will be engineering graduates. There will be a mixture.

2014.

Mr McGonigle: A number of years ago we brought in hundreds at a time, but we have got to a point now where we have eased back. The same numbers are no longer required in those functions.

2015.

Mrs Carson: I was delighted to hear your presentation today. It was a breath of fresh air to learn that you have a full order book and that your problem is needing people but being unable to get them. The message has come through quite clearly today that something is failing in the education system.

2016.

I was very impressed with the example you gave of the BIFHE grouping. The thing that vexed me was the acceptance of failure on the part of the people and staff you were dealing with in the educational establish­ment. They were quite prepared for failure, and that represents something radically wrong in the teaching profession. Teachers should go for achievement and not accept failure. If you accept failure, you will get failure.

2017.

I was also interested in the number of women. You are having a problem bringing in women. Do you have women in the senior ranks going out to girls' schools and girls' classes in mixed schools? Would targeting girls on their own achieve anything?

2018.

Having visits to your factory site for a fun day, even at primary-school level, would mean you are achieving something people can see. If you bring children from primary school, never mind secondary school, they are aware from an early age. Are you doing anything like that, perhaps through families?

2019.

Ms Phillips: On the family side, we have a full exhibition at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum open to all, so anyone who visits the transport side of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum will see the flight experience. It tells you all about Bombardier Aerospace and Shorts and all the roles in the company. There are various examples of engineering in the display.

2020.

The CD-ROM is going to all of the schools. There is high teacher input into that CD-ROM, which is about careers in this industry. The career window work that we are doing with career web is another thing that is going to be open to all students and parents because it will be on the Internet.

2021.

We do not specifically visit girls' schools. We do a lot of school visits and careers talks, but this may be something we could take away and pay more attention to. It is very hard. We had a couple of functions with a good female representation, but overall there is only a 10% female representation in the company. We could do something more ourselves on that front.

2022.

Mrs Carson: You should try to encourage pro- active work. If you sent out a smartly dressed woman into the school to give a careers advice talk, you might be surprised at the response.

2023.

Mr McGonigle: We talked to the Engineering Training Council about this. When we got one or two young ladies in as apprentices they were in the minority, particularly when they went down to the factory floor where there are 3,000 or 4,000 men.

2024.

We thought that perhaps the T&EA, the Engineering Training Council and ourselves could do something to get a group through at the one time. They could be self-supporting, supporting each other rather than one young lady there on her own.

2025.

The Chairperson: You have talked very well on issues at apprenticeship level and issues relating to graduates. What about the in between level - the sub-­degree level, technicians, HNDs or foundation degrees? Is there a gap in supply at that level? How do you feel about your intake at that level, both in terms of quantity and quality?

2026.

Mr McGonigle: We take the HND as equivalent to a pass degree, and count all as graduates. In our apprenticeship scheme we encourage apprentices to do their HND and, if they are capable, to go on and get a degree. If they get a degree, we again encourage them to get a Master's degree.

2027.

Carol mentioned the adult apprenticeship, and people who are semi-skilled can become skilled. They can also go to college and end up with a degree or Master's degree also. People on the shop floor, and people who have come through as apprentices, a lot of them are now in very senior positions within the company. There are bridges the whole way through.

2028.

Ms Phillips: One of the areas that we have had some experience in is external recruitment, particularly in the professional functions like procurement. We had great difficulty in getting people, after interview, with the experience and knowledge of procurement policies and how to negotiate. We have some examples of that in finance, and work and material planning is a function/ department within the company. There has been so much investment and technology has moved on in every part of the company, it is very hard to get people with the experience. We have had to do a lot of re-training in-house, and bring in people at a different level and train them up.

2029.

The Chairperson: I get the impression that Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts could expand more rapidly if they could recruit more people. Are you constrained by the supply of available labour at those particular skill levels, particularly apprenticeship level?

2030.

Ms Phillips: The constraint is the speed with which they get to a level of productivity that is required. I would not like to say that we would take in a lot more people if they were there. However, we would move faster and better if the people we were getting were better. We have to spend a lot more time on learning curves, bringing people up to speed on the training front.

2031.

The Chairperson: That has been immensely helpful. Thank you both very much for coming and giving your valuable time. We appreciate what you have said and will study the handouts and figures closely. We wish you well in the future and hope that your business thrives.

2032.

Ms Phillips: Thank you very much.

2033.

Mr Byrne: May I make one point before Ms Phillips and Mr McGonigle go? This has been one of the most interesting sessions relating to training and skills needs. It would be good if this Committee could go and visit their training facility, to see how it is done on the ground.

2034.

Mr McGonigle: We would be absolutely delighted.

2035.

Mr Carrick: That would be a useful exercise.

2036.

Mrs Carson: Mr McGonigle said that they did not give their findings about the problems they were having with the college. It might be worthwhile if they could formulate something and forward it to the Department, or ourselves, to get it into the wider domain.

2037.

Mr McGonigle: I agree with you entirely. I think Kevin Chambers, the Dean of Technology at the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education, has sent a report in. We could certainly follow it up.

2038.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 1 March 2001

Members present:

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mrs Carson

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mr Hay

Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:

Ms J Gormley  ) Qualifications and

Mr J Lavery    ) Curriculum Authority

2039.

The Chairperson: I welcome you on behalf of the Higher and Further Education, Training and Employ­ment Committee. Thank you for coming. We want to hear more about the work of the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority (QCA). This is part of our inquiry on how the training system works, or perhaps does not work, here in Northern Ireland, as regards industrial and economic development. We apologise for running a bit late. We were dealing with the Executive programme fund bids, which are an area of great interest.

2040.

Ms Gormley: Thank you very much. I will give a brief introduction. For our purposes, and I hope for yours too, it might be helpful to start with a brief explanation of how the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority (QCA) came to operate in Northern Ireland.

2041.

Prior to the Education Act 1997, the National Council for Vocational Qualifications (NCVQ) was responsible for the development of a vocational qualifi­cation framework and for the occupational standards upon which those qualifications were based. In 1996, the NCVQ had already established a number of regional offices throughout England and Wales, in order to help, advise and promote the whole concept of vocational qualifications on a regional basis. In 1996, it was agreed with the Training and Employment Agency that the time was right to establish a similar regional facility in Northern Ireland. The current QCA team is originated from the NCVQ team.

2042.

Initially, we were responsible for advising on and promoting National Vocational Qualifications (NVQs) in Northern Ireland and for providing quality assurance in respect of those qualifications. The Education Act changed things for us, although we had a relatively easy transition in Northern Ireland because our focus remained on NVQs. However, we now had the additional statutory regulatory responsibility, and our work moved from a promoting role to a regulation auditing and policing one.

2043.

Our main area of work is quality assurance. Mr Lavery is part of our quality audit team and we will take questions about the monitoring of NVQs and the handling of complaints about the system. We also provide guidance, advice and support to employers in Northern Ireland, and we provide information and customer services.

2044.

We also provide a watching brief on the develop­ment of national occupational standards, on which qualifications are based. We scrutinise each project on the development of occupational standards to ensure that the Northern Ireland dimension has been considered and to ensure that relevant parties in Northern Ireland have been informed.

2045.

Over the past five years, we have provided advice to Government and other bodies on all matters concerning NVQs and key skills and how they relate to work-based training and qualifications. We have also provided advice on other vocational qualifications and on a number of initiatives such as the childcare training strategy, the qualifications aspect of New Deal and other Government-funded programmes. We have helped to devise a funding formula for key skills and other qualifications and provided advice on unitisation and credit matters, working closely with the Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation and Transfer System.

2046.

We have also held a series of consultation events, at which we meet employers, training providers and users. We hear their views on the NVQ system, which allows us to address the issues raised and ensure that Northern Ireland's interests are considered nationally.

2047.

We also regularly produce reports and other relevant guidance material, especially for the Northern Ireland audience. I draw your attention to the pack that we have brought with us today. It is a series of case study materials, giving advice and guidance to employers implementing NVQs. We work with other regulatory bodies, including the Council for the Curriculum, Examina­tions and Assessment in Northern Ireland, regulatory partners in Scotland and Wales and our own colleagues in the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority, in London.

2048.

We have established an awarding body forum in Northern Ireland through which we regularly meet bodies that offer National Vocational Qualifications. That is supplemented by the ongoing monitoring done by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority's audit branch. To hear views on the system and to develop policy, we engage regularly with employers and sectoral repre­sentative groups, including sectoral training councils. We work closely with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment; the Depart­ment of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, on Government-funded programmes with employers; the Training and Employment Agency; and the Education and Training Inspectorate, with whom we share all the findings of our quality audit work.

2049.

Mr Beggs: The lines between the worlds of academia and vocational training seem to be blurring. Academia cannot exist on its own - it should be related to the world of work. Why are there three organisations that look after training and educational standards in Northern Ireland? Would it not be better to have one organisation, especially following the development of vocational A levels? There seems to be a blurring of the distinction. People's skills, whether gained in a vocational or an academic setting, should be equally recognised.

2050.

Ms Gormley: You have identified three bodies. There are two regulatory bodies operating in Northern Ireland - the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority and the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment. Obviously, there are other regulatory bodies in the rest of the United Kingdom. The Education Act 1997 brought the National Council for Vocational Qualifications together with the School Curriculum and Assessment Authority, in a bid to end the divide between academic and vocational or occupational qualifications.

2051.

Our role in Northern Ireland relates to the post-­accreditation monitoring of National Vocational Qualifi­cations. The development of the qualifications framework is taken forward by the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment, the Qualific­ations and Curriculum Authority and the Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales (ACCAC). There­fore, the three regulatory bodies work together. The Education Act 1997 sets out the remit and responsibilities of the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority and it seemed fit that we should continue the work that we were doing on National Vocational Qualifications. The rationale for that may be found in the legislation.

2052.

Mr Carrick: The Committee is trying to establish the efficiency and effectiveness of the education system, and how well people can progress from training to industry. Do you believe that there is still a demarcation or a gap between education and training and the demands of industry? If so how can that be addressed?

2053.

Ms Gormley: I will confine my remarks to qualifications. Education and training both lead to qualifications, but they permeate many other facets of our lives. However, the issue of parity of esteem or equivalency needs to be addressed. We have difficulty getting to grips with the appropriate language ourselves. Equivalency can suggest that one qualification is the same as another. However, the qualifications in the framework are, in fact, quite different from each other. They should be different; they attest to different things. In our paper we provided you with an overview of the qualifications framework that showed the two ends of the spectrum. General or academic qualifications attest to knowledge, whereas occupational qualifications are designed specifically to attest to skills and competence.

2054.

The qualifications framework will go some way towards addressing the language issue. More should be done to ensure sure that employers understand and use a common language. In Northern Ireland, for example, employers still refer to O levels, that indicates how much we need to do. Employers have a good grasp now of what a National Vocational Qualification (NVQ) attests to. The middle pathway that we referred to in the framework - the work on other vocational-related qualifications - might extend people's thinking a little about where all the other types of qualification come in. The sooner that employers make reference to the skills that they require rather than the qualifications that they are looking for, the sooner we will move the whole agenda forward.

2055.

Mr Hay: Does your organisation believe that there is an overlap or duplication of qualifications in the education and training system in Northern Ireland? How could that be addressed?

2056.

Ms Gormley: That was recognised at the formation of the national qualifications framework, at the heart of which was rationalisation. It was clear to Government and others that there was duplication of qualifications. It will be a painful process, particularly for awarding bodies that must go through the process of submitting themselves and their qualifications for accreditation. At that stage, the regulatory bodies will look jointly at those qualifications to see whether they meet the needs of Northern Ireland, England and Wales and whether they have a national and international currency beyond that. Frankly, if they have no such currency, they will not be within the national qualifi­cations framework. In England, particularly, that has implications for funding, because it was suggested that only those qualifications that have met the criteria to be included in the qualifications framework will, in future, attract funding.

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