COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

1891.

Ms McWilliams: Do you foresee a stage where pupils will drop a language in order to take up that option? Dropping a language is allowed, but you say a minority of students take up the option. However, it could turn out to be a majority of students. You cannot predict that.

1892.

Dr Walker: We cannot, but we have indicated in the document that we feel that learning a language is very important for young people at this stage. We are slightly concerned about the degree of success that many of our young people have in learning languages. That may be down to the way we approach language learning, or the stage at which it begins. For that reason, we are about to advertise for someone to work with us on a language learning project for primary schools. If we begin language learning at that stage we may make quicker progress, subsequently, making pupils who really do not want to learn languages, and who are gaining little from it, less of a problem at Key Stage 4.

1893.

Mr McCune: There is no doubt about it. They are proposals, and consultation tells us that they are areas that will be raised many times. We have taken pragmatic decisions and Dr Walker's points, on previous funding and the language-for-all policy for 14 to 16 year olds, are extremely valid.

1894.

Mr Holmes: It poses a challenge for schools and boards of governors to make sure that they provide a total curriculum package that meets the needs of their pupils. Significant and difficult decisions will have to be made, which I hope will be based on our advice and advice from the Department. Looking slightly ahead there could be a scenario where some young people, taking account of economic circumstances and their own personal strengths, could easily take two vocational GCSEs alongside English and mathematics. Certain subjects that we have all held dear, and which we feel ought to be there, will be squeezed out.

1895.

That is the kind of decision that schools will have to take. The vast majority will be expected to do a language. There will be questions about subjects such as history, geography, economics, and those will be the difficult decisions. So, to answer Mr Carrick, this may guide how we choose to meet the labour market demands at a particular time. It will dictate the type of curriculum individual pupils may take.

1896.

The Chairperson: Do you see your role as neutral on subjects that young people are studying, or do you want to adopt a more directive role? Clearly, there are strong trends against certain subjects such as mathematics, physics and economics, with other subjects such as business studies growing in numbers. We could all have opinions on what is happening. Do you see your role as trying to steer? Have you an ideal pattern of the subjects being studied?

1897.

Dr Walker: We do not have an ideal. We ask questions when we see the drift away from mathematics and physics to find out why this is happening. If we are losing people whom we need to study those subjects, we want to know if this is a threat to the economy. We need to know the reason, what it is about these subjects that is turning people off. We are looking at this and considering what the nature of mathematical education should be. Arguably, there are those who feel we are teaching too much mathematics. People feel that what we teach is largely irrelevant, and this is causing the problem rather than what we are not teaching.

1898.

Likewise with science, there is probably a case for looking at science education and asking if the way we approach science now is the correct way for science education in the twenty-first century. We are taking a long view, because this is not the sort of change we could introduce over the next year or two. The time to start thinking about these things is now because these issues are being thrown up by the curriculum review. We do not believe that what is implemented in schools in 2003 is the end of a process; it is a stage in a process and there will be considerable work to be done thereafter.

1899.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. Your presentation has been very interesting. This is a long-term, ongoing project. This Committee, or successive Commit­tees in the future, will re-examine these issues. We wish you well with the ongoing review and consultation on the curriculum.

1900.

Dr Walker: Thank you for the opportunity to attend.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 22 February 2001

Members present:

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mrs Carson

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mr Dallat

Mr Hay

Mr R Hutchinson

Mr J Kelly

Witnesses:

Ms C Phillips                        ) Bombardier Aerospace,

Mr H McGonigle                        ) Shorts

1901.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon. I welcome you to our evidence session relating to our inquiry into education and training for industry. Thank you for your notes. I invite you to begin with a short presentation, and we will then ask you some questions.

1902.

Ms Phillips: Thank you for the opportunity to meet the Committee. We both come from the training side of Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts. We have prepared a document for you. The first page sets out the contents, and I will talk you through those in case we do not have time to go through the entire document. We can then return to the document as we consider your questions.

1903.

We want to set the scene for you in relation to Bombardier. Shorts is now owned by Bombardier, which is a global organisation. The document covers Bombardier's presence in Northern Ireland with Shorts. It then moves to this year's recruitment statistics and the difficulties experienced this year in recruiting. We took on some 1,400 people in the last 12 months, and we have had to face various issues such as dropout rates and failure at interviews and tests. We will then cover our links with education and development through our relationships with the universities and colleges of further and higher education. We will then raise some issues relating to the field of equal opportunities, and make some recommendations that we feel will be of help to the Committee.

1904.

If members want me to cover any specific issues in my introduction I will do so. Perhaps you want me to go straight to the recommendations?

1905.

The Chairperson: We are happy for you to take us through the document.

1906.

Ms Phillips: We have used bullet points rather than a lot of text. If you want to ask a question just stop me.

1907.

Bombardier is an international organisation, a global company. Bombardier's fields of activity are in aerospace (the biggest sector of the business), transport­ation, recreation, capital and international aspects. The transportation side deals mostly with rail carriages; aerospace covers business and regional aircraft; and the recreational element is in skidoos and "seadoos" - boats and snow equipment. The capital side involves investment, and the international side is about a global approach to sales and marketing. The revenue for the whole corporation is 13·6 billion Canadian dollars. It is a very substantial company.

1908.

In business terms, we rank number one in most of the markets we operate in. These are regional aircraft, business aircraft, amphibious aircraft, rail passenger cars and personal watercraft. It has always been our objective to rank number one.

1909.

In the aerospace section there are 38,000 employees. Overall, Bombardier has approximately 56,000 employees. There are four main manufacturing sites: Shorts in Belfast with approximately 7,000 people, Canadair in Montreal, De Haviland in Toronto and Lear Jet in Wichita in Kansas. The other three sites are in North America and the fourth is in Northern Ireland. Bombardier is the third largest civil aircraft manufacturer in the world and we concentrate on design, manufacture and build of aircraft. The company has grown considerably over the years. Bombardier has owned Shorts since 1989. It has an annual compounded growth of 21% with revenues in aerospace of £8.1 billion. We have a healthy order book with a backlog of 1,000 aircraft orders (including options) at the moment, which represents 19 billion Canadian dollars. This is why we have had to do so much recruitment this year. It is a busy industry at the moment.

1910.

I will take you through the figures for Shorts and explain to you a little bit about the issues we have there.

1911.

The Bombardier philosophy over the last few years has been to introduce one new aircraft programme each year. Listed on the second and third pages of the document before you, you will see the different aircraft programmes we are involved in. Those are a combination of regional aircraft and business jets. Our market share for business aircraft is 20% internationally, and 46% for regional aircraft. In 1999-2000, 292 aircraft were delivered, just one less than Airbus, and at the end of the current year 365 completed aircraft will have been delivered by Bombardier. There has been substantial growth.

1912.

Although Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts in Northern Ireland is a manufacturing centre for Bombardier, we do not deliver any aircraft, but are involved in eight of their programmes, which make us crucial to the business. Sixty per cent of our workload in Belfast is on Bombardier products. At the Belfast site our main activities and centres of excellence are in fuselage assembly; nacelles; the Lear 45, the biggest component we manufacture; the Belfast City Airport; and our manufacturing processes, in particular, composite manufacturing. We have five manufacturing sites in the Belfast area: Queen's Island at Airport Road; Hallmark in Newtownards; and the Crossgar, Newtownabbey and Dunmurry plants.

1913.

You have before you a breakdown of our employ­ees. You can see that the majority of our employees are in the operations sector; there are over 5,000 employees there. Two-thirds of those employees are skilled and an approximate ratio of one-third is semi-skilled. That is where the major recruitment activity was last year.

1914.

You will also note the details of our engineering structure, finance, human resources, procurement, pro­gramme contracts and quality. Substantial investment has been made in technology by Bombardier; as you can see in the brief, around £900 million has been invested. Our technology is state-of-the-art.

1915.

Bombardier's priorities are driven by bottom-­line values; the company needs to see results and wants shareholder value. Our priorities and processes are tightly governed. Some of the priorities have been to successfully manage the major expansion in the business, to implement the new programmes and to increase production rates. This year alone we have had a production rate increase of the RJ aircraft, which means that we have worked at a move rate of one barrel every one and a half days. There are three fuselages for one aircraft programme going out of Shorts every week. That is a big increase for us and that is only one programme.

1916.

The CRJ 700 and 900 regional aircraft programmes are both in the growth market. The Continental is the newest addition to our business aircraft. We want to manage the continuation of a large investment programme and of our factory reorganisation. We aim to increase employment by 20%, and have already done that in the past year. We also want to increase our procurement in the island of Ireland to £500 million in the next few years, and to reduce costs on all contracts.

1917.

Our standards of excellence are demonstrated in the awards that Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts received last year. Last year it received the manufacturer of the year award, MX 2000 Manufacturing Excellence, and retained its Investor in People (IIP) award. Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts has 10 national and 23 regional training awards, so it does a lot of work in training and develop­ment.

1918.

Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts is consistently profitable with a growing turnover and new product lines. In 1989 it produced 360s and 330s, but they have all been replaced by new products in the factory.

1919.

Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts is probably one of the best-equipped factories in Bombardier Aerospace and its IT systems are amongst its best. Its business processes are also very much aligned to Bombardier Aerospace. It has remained internationally competitive despite the current adverse exchange rates and it is continually undergoing major expansion.

1920.

One cannot overestimate the growth that there has been this year and the challenges that that has given us with regard to bringing people in, training them, getting them online and producing work to schedule.

1921.

Last February there was a recruitment fair. We received 15,000 requests for application forms and 9,000 of them were returned. We had about 15 additional temporary staff on a full-time basis for about six months to help with that exercise. We carried out 5,700 tests and interviewed over 4,000 people and that resulted in 1,400 new starts. Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts is continuing to recruit. It expects to be advertising again in the middle of March for an apprenticeship intake and also to meet our skilled intake requirement.

1922.

The company has also appointed 186 people through internal promotions.

1923.

The next chart shows a breakdown of part of the recruitment exercise for last year. It gives an indication of the process followed by people who apply to the company. I have not detailed every function that was advertised or included last year on your document, but the first column on the left shows that from the 8,500 people who applied to the company, 4,395 did not get in. Some of those people were withdrawn through interview, a failed medical or test or decided that they were no longer interested. That is a very high dropout rate, but again, to give you an indication of how it is spread across the company, I have broken that down into the main areas of skilled, semi-skilled, process operators, stores, work material planning, procurement and apprenticeship.

1924.

Most of you probably know about Interpoint. It is at the Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts learning campus in Belfast city centre at York Street, but we also have established partnerships with Queen's University and the University of Ulster. Those partnerships were mainly established through the Integrated Graduate Develop­ment Scheme (IGDS) which has been running for a number of years. Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts also has a partnership on that type of programme with the University of Warwick.

1925.

Representatives from Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts also sit on the industrial advisory board for the engineering faculty at Queen's University, and it has a partnership with Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education (BIFHE). Those partnerships are mainly concerned with apprenticeship training but we also do a lot of manufacturing and engineering programmes with them.

1926.

Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts also sponsors the aeronautical chair at Queen's University and has repre­sentatives who sit on the board of the sectoral training council, the Engineering Training Council (ETC), which is located at Interpoint and runs its own modern apprenticeship programme there. Some of you also know that Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts has a fully equipped skills centre at Interpoint. Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts usually takes in approximately 40 apprentices each year and we hope to increase that to 55 this year. It also runs a scheme on behalf of the Training and Employment Agency which brings in 10 additional apprentices.

1927.

Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts runs apprentice­ship training for other external organisations and it also runs an in-house adult apprenticeship programme. There­fore people who have come through the organisation as semi-skilled can train for three years for an NVQ and become skilled.

1928.

Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts set up the flight experience display at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum. It is working on the development of a CD-ROM for schools that will be linked to the curriculum. Teachers and the BBC are also involved in developing the CD-ROM. It will be integrated into the curriculum but will concentrate mainly on science, technology and business studies. These are some of Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts' efforts to get into the education system and influence the education of young people who might come in to the company.

1929.

We are also working on a career window web site. We have been asked to participate in this initiative as a pilot exercise. We carry out a lot of work on careers conventions and work experience. We target particular schools to try to build up a relationship with them and to encourage them to take on projects with us. We continually work hard on equal opportunities, but we do not always see the benefits from that. We try very hard to recruit from all sectors of the community but we have great difficulty attracting females and Roman Catholics into the company. We have set up initiatives with the Training and Employment Agency through the Bridge to Employment programme and the Job Wise programme to try to address that, and we actively encourage all sectors to apply. We also work hard on community relationships through education and through business initiatives. However, we would appreciate some additional help on that.

1930.

I have split the recommendations into careers guidance and advice. We have experienced a significant drop off in the number of people who apply for the apprenticeship programme. One reason for that is because many children are being encouraged to stay on at school, and they no longer see engineering as an attractive option. Parents and schools are strongly encouraging young people to stay on at school. Careful consideration should be given to the quality of careers advice given to young people in secondary education. They should be strongly encouraged to look at all the potential options and the resulting benefits. There is a lot of competition out there, particularly on the GNVQ side. A lot of young people go into sectors such as leisure and tourism. However, those industries may not provide a long-term career for them, and we question the benefits to them as individuals, to industry and to the country in general.

1931.

The engineering sector is growing substantially and we cannot get the people that we need. Young people's expectations and career aspirations have been less evident in recent years. The transfer of skills and job changes appear to be an attractive but at times short-­term option. Sometimes young people choose something without thinking about the long-term implications. The concepts of challenge, change, growth, development and ambition need to be instilled at an early age.

1932.

In our own modern apprenticeship scheme 95% to 100% of our trainees will complete their apprenticeship, but statistics show that only 12% of young people who enter a modern engineering apprenticeship can complete it to NVQ level 3. Only 36 people out of 300 come out with an apprenticeship! The Engineering Training Council is trying to address that at the moment.

1933.

Very few females are encouraged to come through a modern apprenticeship programme in engineering. We get about five applicants and only one or two women come through each year. We would like to attract more females into that area. If they begin an apprenticeship with us they will not have to stay on it; they may get other opportunities in the company later. To train with a company such as Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts and to go into a technical route would clearly be an advantage.

1934.

The gap in education provision and industry requirements has substantially widened. The correlation between education content and industry requirements is not as good. There is a greater need for teachers to work closer with industry in order to ensure that education connects to our standards. We also feel that the standard of core basic engineering skills has dropped. Over the past year we have supported additional education for our apprentices in the areas of science and mathematics. They cannot relate to what they are learning, and find it very difficult to learn in college. Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts has had to support that a little. Young people need a strong foundation to build upon so that new technology solutions can be understood and applied. The basic skills are still absolutely essential even though technology is moving on.

1935.

We did a mathematics project recently in partnership with the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education. This is an example of good practice; it was very successful and it would be advantageous to replicate this in other areas. Some students were struggling with their results. The college expected a failure rate but we didn't expect people to fail. We wanted them to succeed and decided to do whatever we could to help them.

1936.

We had to work very hard to encourage the college to be part of this. However, they did come on board and we have had very good results. We reviewed the assignments and introduced new ones that were more relevant to the company and which included design manufacture and CNC.

1937.

The lecturer, who was female, reviewed the syllabus and mapped every subject back to the National Vocational Qualification (NVQ). We received every possible piece of information on the syllabus that we could apply to the work that the students did in the company. They incorporated new projects into the syllabus and we had a 100% success rate. The students now enjoy and understand the course much more. This is a very good working example for us.

1938.

Our experience of basic engineering and core skills training initiatives for employees in declining industries in preparation for employment has been through the Bridge to Employment scheme. We have had to give a lot of foundation training to people coming into Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts, even if they have come from Harland and Wolff. There is quite a difference between the engineering skills required in our industries and those needed in other industries.

1939.

We need to increase the efforts being made to attract under-represented groups into the industry. We would benefit from the influence of this sort of group. We need to work with schools and community bodies to encourage people to join this type of industry.

1940.

The Chairperson: That was an extremely helpful report that was packed with specific examples, some of which were very thought provoking and will feature in the questions and discussion that follow.

1941.

Mr J Kelly: You are clustered in Greater Belfast, mostly in east Belfast. Is there a logistical reason why you cannot move beyond there to a rural area, for example? Why is it difficult to attract non-traditional applicants, such as people from the Catholic community? Is there something you can do to encourage people from the Nationalist or Catholic communities to join those industries? Are there certain skills which are developed most effectively in the workplace, and others that should always be taught in an educational institute? Can you marry the two things by giving someone educational experience followed by work experience?

1942.

Ms Phillips: Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts is the oldest aircraft manufacturer in the world and we have been based off Queen's Island since 1938, I think. We have plants in Newtownards and Dunmurry and we have invested a lot of money in the Dunmurry plant over the past year. We joined the two plants at that site together with a tunnel and we now manufacture in there. We have increased our work packages and manpower in Dunmurry. Those measures have been part of our effort to attract more people from that part of the community to apply for work.

1943.

The other plants are already well established, but in Dunmurry we are very focused on our investment in attracting and providing options for those people. We have various equal opportunity initiatives, one of which focuses on how to advertise for staff for the company. We now advertise locally in five papers: the "Belfast Telegraph", the "News Letter", the "Irish News", the "Andersonstown News" and the "Lisburn Star".

1944.

We have broadened our reach as regards trying to attract people, and when we are considering recruitment, we work with the T&EA and community organisations in the area.

1945.

We are also running a Bridge to Employment programme, which has brought in about 300 people over the last few years. Typically in that event we invite community representatives to the company and give them an overview of the type of work involved, providing them with as much information as possible assisted by the T&EA. Our Newtownabbey and Dunmurry plants comprise unskilled work, process operator type work, and are prime locations for attracting females and Catholics into the business. We are working hard to attract more people to the company.

1946.

Mr J Kelly: Is there a chill factor that discourages Catholics from joining the company?

1947.

Ms Phillips: It is perceived that we are an east Belfast company and have traditionally not had a high representation of Catholics. Therefore, Catholics are reluctant to apply for jobs. From our visits to schools, we know that there is also a limited amount of knowledge in some areas about the type of business and industry we are involved in. In one school, the children had not heard about Shorts and did not know that we were there. There is a need for better education and increased awareness. We really do want to encourage more people to join the company.

1948.

Mr J Kelly: I appreciate that.

1949.

Mr McGonigle: Some bridge building does take place when people come into the company, particularly among young people. Those of the same persuasion tend to remain in their own corners, and it is only through outward-bound activities, working with them in teams, and trying to get them to relate to each other, that barriers are broken. It is very satisfying to see people become firm friends as the year progresses.

1950.

Mr J Kelly: Should skills be acquired at an educational institution or in the workplace? How can these be married together?

1951.

Mr McGonigle: Many years ago, there were technical schools. Our company requires many of the traditional skills such as fitting and sheet metal working. However, nowadays, young people come to us with very little experience of materials, or of the skills we need. They are starting from a very basic level.

1952.

Additionally, we are not getting the same numbers nowadays. A few years ago, we would have had more than 1,000 people applying for apprenticeships. Today it might be around 400. However, when you look at the overall figures you find that 42% go into higher education and 37% go into further education. We are getting part of the remainder.

1953.

We know that skills are missing because we carry out the Saville and Holdsworth test for all the young people we take on and we see skills decreasing every year, particularly in mathematics. We reckon that if we carried out the test for another 20 years we would find that young people then would have no mathematical skills at all.

1954.

Mr Byrne: You are bringing us a good news story. It is wonderful that the company is employing so many people and is expanding its workforce so energetically.

1955.

First, your in-house training scheme for apprentices seems to be very successful. Obviously, the worrying aspect for us is that 300 people join modern apprentice­ships and only 36 come out. Why do you think your scheme is so successful?

1956.

Secondly, your relationship with BIFHE seems to be company-led, and that seems to be beneficial to you. Why do you think that arrangement is working? Have you any plans to go to other further education colleges?

1957.

Thirdly, as regards schools recruitment and careers advice, do you visit schools across Northern Ireland or only those in the Belfast area?

1958.

Mr McGonigle : One of the big problems in apprenticeships is funding. We commit to the young people when we take them on board. There is funding for the first year with some providers, and then a company has to take them on board. As part of the modern apprenticeship they have to be employed in their second and third year, and this is where there is a quite a loss. They are in training for the first year with a provider and with a company three or four days a week. Sometimes that company does not take them on. There is a possibility that they might come through with another group of people.

1959.

Another reason is that we work at it, keeping them together for the first year. We mentor them, coach them, tutor them and bring them along. It is not just craft type things; we talk to them about life, and about teamwork. We do six sigma and quality projects to keep their interest. We also encourage them with help in their studies. They see a good future with Shorts.

1960.

Mr Byrne: Is it a three-year MA they do with you?

1961.

Mr McGonigle: It is a three-year MA.

1962.

Mr Byrne: Is the training for year two and three company funded?

1963.

Mr McGonigle: That is correct.

1964.

Mr Byrne: How many apprentices normally stay on with you?

1965.

Mr McGonigle: All of them stay.

1966.

Ms Phillips: A number of those apprentices have moved into senior positions. Some of our very senior management have been apprentices in the company. The opportunities there are great.

1967.

Mr Dallat: You referred to integrating your workforce. It is widely recognised that you have strived to do that, and that should be encouraged by everyone. The spin-off for the wider community is enormous. You certainly have my full support.

1968.

A lot of people apply for your jobs but a horrendous number fail before the interview stage. My specialist interest is adult literacy and numeracy. I am interested in this innovative partnership with BIFHE. Have you unlocked a door that education has failed to do in encouraging young people to acquire basic skills that they failed to get in the education system? Have you any advice for people like myself who survived the system for 30 years, but did not quite achieve that breakthrough.

1969.

Ms Phillips: We found an expectation that there will be a certain amount of failure, which is unacceptable from an industry point of view. For every investment we make in developing people, we want to make sure they can transfer the knowledge. We have to work very hard to transfer their learning into being able to apply the skills, not just at an apprentice level but at higher levels as well.

1970.

We are highly involved in the steering committee for the Integrated Graduate Development Scheme. We are ensuring that the content is applicable to the industry. There is still room for improvement in education.

1971.

Mr Dallat: You are an international company but you give me the impression that you are very much a family business - for example, the way you allow your employees to progress through the system, and your special reference to girls coming in at one level and progressing. How do you achieve that?

Top

<< Prev / Next >>