COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

Report 01/01R

1261.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: There is a significant distinction between us and the three other bodies I am talking about, namely the Higher Education Funding Councils for England, Scotland and Wales. They have actual funding responsibility and executive authority in their own field. They must operate within guidelines set for them by the responsible Minister; they cannot simply distribute money as they wish. They are given guidelines, but within them they are responsible. We are a different body, in that we are currently an independent, non-statutory advisory body.

1262.

One of the arguments advanced in the Dearing report is that it is right in principle in any jurisdiction, including Northern Ireland, to have an intermediary between the Government of the day and the universities. They have argued in principle that it is right to have that happen. I am bound to say to you that what we have so far given to the Department - initially the Department of Education for Northern Ireland, and now its successor - is advice. I am not aware of our advice having been thrown out the window and disregarded in any instance.

1263.

One could say it is a confidential relationship. We produce reports for the Department, and it decides whether they are published. I must confess to having occasionally hankered after the Northern Ireland Economic Council model, which produces reports that are sometimes not very highly regarded by Government. They may needle and annoy everybody, and I believe that is a legitimate role sometimes, particularly for an advisory body. People can always say that they think the advice is lousy and that they are not going to follow it.

1264.

As to the constitution of the body, all of the councils in the different parts of the United Kingdom tend to have a mix of academic and non-academic members, largely, though not solely, from the business community. There are other players like the National Health Service. There was clearly a difficulty for the Department in Northern Ireland. At this point I must highlight the fact that we are not self-appointing. We do not decide who is going to serve; it is the responsibility of the Department to make appointments.

1265.

At the outset, the Department saw a difficulty, in that we are essentially dealing with two institutions. If one had academic members from Queen's University and the University of Ulster, they would spend the whole time talking about their own business. It is often a zero-sum game, and it would be highly embarrassing. Therefore, the situation is rather strange in that, while there are a great many heavyweight English and Scottish academics on the Higher Education Funding Councils for England and Scotland respectively, we have heavyweight academics from across the water.

1266.

That is not an ideal state of affairs, but it can be compensated for by another consideration. Because there are only two institutions, we are able to do what our counterparts cannot practically do: meet regularly with the top management of the two universities. Mr Coote and I in particular meet both vice chancellors fairly regularly, and not necessarily always when we have some sort of controversial business to pursue. We try to keep in touch and understand how they are thinking. It is important to do so, and, although we have no representatives from the universities on the main council, we have incorporated them into a number of the working-party exercises we have carried out. We find them very helpful and constructive. My view is that it works very well, but I should note that Dearing felt there should be a different model in place.

1267.

You also made the point about the involvement of industrialists and local representatives from business, and that is reflected in the membership of the committee.

1268.

Mr Beggs: What is the balance between former civil servants and business people? How do you come to a decision and what credibility should be given to it? What are your views on the foundation degree?

1269.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: It is an interesting experiment in extending higher education. The Government want to be able to say as soon as possible that 50% of people will have access to higher education. However, there are two views in the academic community on the foundation degree. One view is that there are other qualifications that are not degrees, but which are good, well-established qualifications, and that there is nothing wrong with them. Others take the view that the foundation degree is worth trying. It is being piloted in Northern Ireland. It widens access and reaches part-time students, which is important in Northern Ireland.

1270.

Mr Morrison: There is some concern in the further education system that the foundation degrees may impinge on existing higher education courses that are not designated as degrees. The pilot programme will explore that issue and give us a better view of how it should be handled. There is a genuine concern that foundation degrees may affect qualifications such as the Higher National Diplomas. That issue will be addressed during the piloting phase, before the new degrees are firmly established.

1271.

Mr Beggs: When do you expect feedback from the pilot scheme? How long will it run?

1272.

Mr Coote: It will run for approximately two years.

1273.

Mr Beggs: That would be the end of the first course.

1274.

Mr Coote: Yes.

1275.

Mrs Nelis: Your report states that students here should have the same opportunity to participate in higher education as their counterparts in the rest of the United Kingdom, including the same choice of course and place of study. That suggests that there will be increased pressure for higher education places in local institutions. I hope that you are making the argument for another university, and I want to put in a plug for Derry; Magee should have full university status. I agree with everything that you have said about that.

1276.

I was at an interesting meeting last night, held as part of Minister McGuinness's consultation on streaming and the 11-plus. There was a huge attendance, and some very interesting and stimulating presentations were made. One recurring allegation was that streaming has led to a division between vocational and academic education, which, in turn, contributed to de-skilling. Will the foundation degree proposals lead to some sort of marriage between vocational and academic courses?

1277.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: That is an important issue. We should not imagine that there is too clear a dividing line between the two, but it is interesting to note that many studies of the supply of certain types of labour in the British economy show that there is not necessarily a shortage of graduates, but a shortage of the type of person who - in Germany, for example - would be good at working from technical drawings et cetera. It is important to have the best facilities available for those with a vocational bent. It is also important not to regard somebody who wants to pursue the vocational rather than the academic course as second-rate. That is an important principle. An industry such as Seagate, for example, will want someone who has taken a PhD and has been through the whole research process in a university. However, an SME may be looking for a more practical man or woman. So, it is important to keep the two potential streams in mind.

1278.

Mr Morrison: In general, that is true. The format of the new two-year degree has yet to be explored and developed. Many people say that the existing programmes of advanced further education meet some of their requirements. Perhaps, it is now a matter of giving vocational courses proper status. Some people argue that the value of that type of industrial degree needs to be more fairly recognised, to bring it into line with the others. There could be merit in that.

1279.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: Another important word is "progression". Northern Ireland is ahead of other areas of the UK in the development of a comprehensive credit accumulation and transfer scheme, known as NICATS. The whole idea of lifelong learning is attractive and important.

1280.

I once attended a presentation of certificates at a college in Enniskillen, at which they did an interesting thing. When the students came forward, they said not only what certificate they were receiving, but where they were going from there. An amazing number of them were going on to, for instance, the University of Ulster or to a university in Scotland, and it made a reality of the whole idea of a ladder of progression. In Northern Ireland, we are quite well prepared to develop that, thanks to some outstanding work on the NICATS scheme.

1281.

Mrs Nelis: There were many tributes paid last night to the excellent work carried out by secondary schools and further education colleges. However, there is still no recognition, and that should be addressed.

1282.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: Perhaps, it would be best if I were to confine myself to the field of higher education.

1283.

The Chairperson: That is very wise.

1284.

Mr Coote: I would like to add that the pilot for the foundation degree will be geared to the skills needs in Northern Ireland. That will also help.

1285.

Mr Dallat: My question could be open to interpretation, but I will take a chance on it.

1286.

Obviously, there is now a great demand for the new-age industries such as biochemistry and information technology, and both universities are well geared up for that. Do you see any shortfall in the number of IT graduates that we produce and, equally importantly, do you think that the humanities and the arts are now taking a back seat? Is there less demand for them? Is there greater difficulty in getting funding for postgraduate courses? I know that you have a personal interest in this because I have heard some of your lectures. Perhaps, it does not relate directly to jobs, but, if that were to happen, we would be much the poorer for it. There is a big risk that the new-age graduates will emigrate to more lucrative places, and the people left behind will not be equipped to provide the lifelong learning and all the other things that are so important.

1287.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: As a graduate in modern history, I am sympathetic to that. Indeed, I am a very ancient modern historian. It would be very sad if the arts and humanities were to be neglected. For a long time, there was no heavyweight sponsor of the arts and humanities in the funding system. Government funding for research comes through two streams. One is from the Department or funding council and the other from the various research councils, which consider specific projects. It is only relatively recently that the Arts and Humanities Research Board has joined the other bodies. That is important.

1288.

Industries often say that they want people who have learnt disciplined thought processes, not necessarily people whose research bears directly on what they will be doing. The employers can teach them that. Even high-tech industries such as Seagate want the sort of person who has done a thesis for a doctorate and knows how to go about a rigorous research programme. Employers do not necessarily expect all of them to be operating in their specific area, and that is important.

1289.

As you know, we have recently been involved in the management of the support programme for university research (SPUR). All of us at the council, as well as the two universities, took huge encouragement from it. It was an opportunity to promote excellence across the spectrum. It was not only for bids for work in the economic and technological areas, but for the social and cultural areas too. We are an economy, but we are also a society and a culture. Universities exist to adorn and support all aspects of our life.

1290.

The Chairperson: Mr Dallat's first question was about IT graduates. There has been much controversy about whether there is a shortfall in graduate provision. Do you want to comment?

1291.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: The University of Ulster is, I believe, the largest single provider of IT education in the British university system. There is no doubt that the subject is taken seriously. Both our universities do it, and it is regarded as the jewel in the crown. I am not aware of any industries requiring those skills being turned away. However, I can see the need to go on producing more of these people, just as I can see the need for everybody to be more IT-literate, whether they are pursuing law, geology or whatever.

1292.

Mr Morrison: One of the features of the development of higher education in recent years has been the way in which the appropriate use of IT has spread throughout many disciplines. Specialist information technology courses are no longer the sole provider of such skills. There are few university courses, even in the humanities and arts, which do not require students to become involved in using IT. However, there is a danger that people who have a qualification that suggests that they are IT-proficient may apply for a position that is much more specialist than their qualification allows. The recent report on IT skills showed that there was a problem with industrialists and companies recruiting people with IT skills, even though they had only a one-year top-up course on a general degree. Obviously, they did not have the experience to carry forward some of the more advanced work that the companies required. We must get the balance right.

1293.

Both our universities operate well in the areas of computer science and technology. I understand that Queen's is to further its activity in the specialist academic area of computing by establishing a high profile "Centre for Software Excellence". This should be appreciated and encouraged. The universities here are certainly well up with the best in the UK in this regard. There will always be a debate as to whether courses meet the requirements of the community. In my own experience - I worked a long time in this field - I have found that some people imagine that, after a short three-month top-up course, they can walk into an academic position in computing or technology, only to disappoint their employer. We must be aware of that danger. Our universities and colleges are well aware of it.

1294.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: It is not irrelevant that, at the level below the tertiary sector, there has been huge investment in schools in IT and other technology. When I was a lad, the more able boys in the school wanted to do history, English or modern languages, but my impression is that the abler children tend to opt for science and technology, because that is the nature of their interest.

1295.

Mr Morrison: I used to find it interesting to go into a school with a new computer suite and talk to the children who were using it. I would pretend not to know what was going on, in order to get them to explain to me what they were doing. The degree to which the young people were using the technology was amazing. They were using it not just for their computer courses, but also for geography, chemistry and so on. Schools have fostered the use of IT across the curriculum and that has been further developed by the universities. Things are not perfect, but they are moving in the right direction.

1296.

Mr Carrick: I note that the council broadly welcomed the five recommendations relating specifically to the provision of higher education in Northern Ireland. I have also noted your response. Three and a half years later, is there any change that you think would be beneficial to the provision of higher education in Northern Ireland? To what extent has there been broad parity between higher education provision in Northern Ireland and in GB in the 1990s? Has that parity been an advantage or disadvantage? Is the system properly tailored to meet the unique needs of Northern Ireland? Is it a properly focused programme?

1297.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: When we examined such matters, in the early years of the council's existence, we saw that an unusually large number of students was forced to seek higher education outside Northern Ireland. However, the deterrent effect was not so great as to reduce greatly the participation of Northern Ireland students in the higher education system. If they had to go to Great Britain to get higher education, many of them would go there. Changes in student support plus the additional costs of being in Great Britain work to the disadvantage of some, particularly those from families who may not be well off.

1298.

We are not necessarily concerned with increasing enormously the proportion of Northern Ireland kids who get into higher education; we are concerned with changing the mix. We do not do too badly. Students from the lower levels of the socio-economic ladder are better represented here than in Great Britain. That is hardly surprising, as it is, after all, a reflection of our society. However, we still do not do well enough.

1299.

I think of the case of some youngster who, perhaps, grows up in quite difficult circumstances, but despite that gets decent enough A-levels to get him a place in a university in England or Scotland. What happens if he is priced out of the Northern Ireland market because he cannot meet the A-level tariff to get into Queen's or the University of Ulster? The worry is that, in such circumstances, some people might decide not to go to university at all, which would be a tragedy.

1300.

There have been many changes. In the past, a substantial cohort of people from the Republic of Ireland came up to universities in Northern Ireland. That became progressively less attractive with the change in the funding regime in both jurisdictions. That freed up places that could be taken up by local people.

1301.

What needs to be done? We thought that we should progressively increase the number of places available in Northern Ireland. That is happening steadily. Perhaps, it should happen more quickly, but it is happening progressively.

1302.

Our major worry was research. When the council came into existence, the basis of research funding changed to reflect and measure research quality. I am sure that you all know about the research assessment exercise (RAE); some of us know it only too well. It is designed to be an objective rating on a certain standard, to which the money is tied. If we had gone directly to that system in Northern Ireland, there would have been a substantial drop in funding for research. The then Department of Education prudently - I congratulate them on winning their argument with the Department of Finance and Personnel, which is not always an easy thing to do - established the so-called NIDevR.

1303.

A large part of our early work was the examination of bids for NIDevR moneys and recommending how they should be allocated. At that point, we were looking particularly at the needs of Northern Ireland. We were looking at arguments for more money that could be spent, not just to the benefit of the university, but to the benefit of Northern Ireland. However, NIDevR was never intended to be a permanent mechanism. Under the Conservative Government there was a considerable fall in the money devoted to research in Northern Ireland. That was a worry, because our work and the parallel work carried out by the Northern Ireland Economic Council indicated two things. One was that Northern Ireland was peculiarly dependent on its university system for research. There are not, as in other places, massive research institutes outside the university system. The second is that Northern Ireland was the only jurisdiction in the United Kingdom where research funding was going down in real terms. We found that alarming.

1304.

The introduction of SPUR was terribly important, because it is a means of getting research funding. We can argue about the ideal level, but we are trying to get funding up to a more decent level. We hope that it will be possible to keep up that funding level in the longer term, or even to improve on it.

1305.

The other major issue that was addressed by Dearing, which has still not been confronted, is the question of how the Government should deal with the tertiary sector. We must take a comprehensive view of all the educational opportunities and facilities available beyond the secondary stage. There is interaction; there are higher education courses in further education colleges. Who should do what and where? It is some time since the Government issued their consultative document on that, and one of these days they will decide what should be done.

1306.

The Chairperson: Perhaps you do not want to hazard a comment on that, but since you raise the issue, would there be a case for NIHEC and the Further Education Advisory Council to come together?

1307.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: Dearing envisaged that there would be separate funding councils - one for higher education, one for further education - and that they should be brought together by some kind of over-arching body. I, and others, did not find that idea terribly attractive. It could be rather confused. There are other possible models. Perhaps, there could be a single council that would deal with tertiary education. Some people will say, "Does this mean that money that should be going to higher education will be creamed off into further education?" or vice versa. That will not necessarily be the case, because the Department can say "Here is a budget for higher education and a budget for further education".

1308.

There is also training; we must remember it in the equation. We could have either a single council with two panels - maybe with overlapping membership but a single secretariat - or two councils with a single secretariat. There is some similar experience elsewhere, for example, in Wales. There are various means of getting greater authority in dealing with the whole tertiary sector.

1309.

Mr Hay: Is there a need for stronger ties between universities and industry in Northern Ireland? How can funding be better co-ordinated?

1310.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: The links between the universities and industry could be improved. I will just say that it takes two to tango. We have set up quite a number of seminars and conferences, to which we invite the academics and the customers. What typically happens is that the academics are there in strength, but there are not many people who represent the consumers of university research. That is partly because we have an SME economy. The poor business guys are run off their feet. They are running a small business and cannot spare somebody to sit for a day listening to people like me spouting. I can understand that, but more movement is required from both sides.

1311.

Mr Hay: My other question was on funding of development and research.

1312.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: The Northern Ireland Economic Council report covered that area. The NIEC was of the opinion that there should be central Government oversight of the whole research budget. I can see some advantages in that. We must remember that research in the universities is not just about supporting and developing the economy. Important though that is, universities exist also for the pursuit of learning and the development of a civilised society. There certainly is merit in seeing what is happening across the board. Not all the money that universities get from the Government comes through the Department on the advice of NIHEC.

1313.

Mr Morrison: The contribution made by other Government Departments to research activity is very important, and we need to give it much more consideration. For example, other Departments are involved in funding industrial, agricultural or medical research. There should be some form of central co-ordination of Government funding of university research - it does happen, but it could happen to better effect.

1314.

Wearing my hat as chairman of the postgraduate awards committee, I think that we must be careful to ensure that our universities are adequately funded when doing research. There is a real problem with the funding of research students in the university. We are asking bright young people with a first class honours degree to stay in university for three years to do a PhD, while we pay them up to £9,000 a year. They could leave and earn £20,000 plus - right away. That is a real difficulty.

1315.

I am not recommending that industry should be allowed to dictate the wages; but we must recognise that, unless we adopt a much more realistic approach to the issue, there will be fewer and fewer research students in the universities. If the university does not have foot soldiers - research students and research assistants - to help develop its research, we will have difficulties.

1316.

It is interesting to see what is happening in industry and commerce in fundamental research. Increasingly, not just small companies but large companies are deciding to develop their basic research within the confines of the university. Companies such as Du Pont and the international telecommunications and electronics companies are now happy to encourage university departments to explore and develop basic research. To be fair, they are willing to fund these developments, and we must encourage this activity which allows funding to go from industry directly to the universities, particularly in support of research assistants and postdoctoral researchers.

1317.

We are greatly encouraged by the postdoctorate funding that was granted two years ago. It was funding from a private donor. Increased funding of this kind should also be provided by Government and public bodies. However, the uplift that that has been given to our five-star departments in the universities is apparent. They can now get bright graduates who are willing to stay to do postdoctoral research. Such students will receive a more appropriate salary while they develop their leading edge technology and research.

1318.

Ms McWilliams: Leading on from that, if we have got the SPUR initiative, which is based on matching funding from private donors, then we clearly need a matching funding initiative relating to education and business. If we have got funding for research, we need a matching initiative to help us make those links.

1319.

Did the Higher Education Council propose the HEROBC initiative? The Chairperson and myself are familiar with what is wrong with the research assessment exercise. In many ways it is theoretical, not sufficiently applied and it has not taken Northern Ireland applied research into account. Internationally, we could be judged as world experts on transvestites yet know nothing about the application of that research. That actually happened at the University of Ulster, quite incredibly - and you will understand exactly where the difficulties lie.

1320.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: I do understand.

1321.

Ms McWilliams: As a Higher Education Council you constantly need to be making those points in terms of where we lie. It is good to have comparable data, but what if it does not relate sufficiently to the circumstances of Northern Ireland? Our universities need a huge shake up to make them more entrepreneurial. They need to think placements, they need to send them out and leave them to their own devices. We need rigorous supervised placements, and, to take up your point, not just in industry. They could be in politics, for instance. If one accepts your point that you can be analytical and not descriptive in relation to the questioning skills you develop, then it is not necessary for those placements to be solely in industry. Our universities are not thinking along those lines regarding life, work and citizenship. Rigorous placements for a lengthy period should be obtained for those courses - six weeks is absolutely useless. I would be interested in your response to that. As a Higher Education Council you must have been looking abroad. You must also address communication skills, because we are sending out students who can barely speak to you, never mind stand up and deliver efficient policy analysis. Those are issues about matching funding with education. You make the point in the background paper, which I agree with, that we need to attract students from other countries. Some of our best students have gone away from our universities on a business education initiative to America. How do you see that developing?

1322.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: That is a fair number of questions. I am sure that we can improve. My personal impression is that both universities are now more entrepreneurially led than they have been for quite a long time. I do not think we have reached a stage of perfection, but there is a greater readiness to acknowledge that a lot needs to be done to link the universities more closely with the community.

1323.

You mention the problem of matching funding. That is one not just for higher and further education, but right across the piece. As you know, I was involved with victims in the past, and I was very worried that a lot of the money going to support those causes was coming out of temporary European funding. One asks oneself "What happens if and when that money dries up? Is this, or is it not, a priority?" One has got to decide what the priorities are.

1324.

You asked where the HEROBC initiative came from and the extent to which it came out of the university system rather than out of the mind of somebody else. To be fair, all the universities, to varying degrees, have, for a long time, been doing things for which they are not specifically funded. They have acknowledged some sort of civic duty and they have been doing things that have been neither teaching nor research, in the classical sense that particularly applies to research as narrowly defined for the purpose of the RAE. I acknowledge what you say about that. Clearly there have been difficulties in getting the RAE right.

1325.

In my view, the real author of the whole HEROBC approach was the present chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for England, Brian Fender, who is something of a visionary and has been very generous with his time in Northern Ireland. He came and met our council and people in the universities on a number of occasions.

1326.

He said "The universities are already doing many things that are not specifically funded, and they recognise those as their contribution to the wider society. Arguably, they ought to be doing more. Therefore, that should be acknowledged through some form of funding". The HEROBC approach developed out of that. Frankly, we came into line with it. We thought that it was a good idea when we first heard about it, because it could be argued that the universities are even more important as a source of fresh ideas and intellectual vigour in this community.

1327.

It still makes up a fairly modest part of total funding, which is where another difficulty arises. The Department goes to the Executive and secures a line of funding for higher education. How many parcels do you divide it up into? As you are aware, the interesting thing about the main funding stream is that it is earned through performance. However, it then goes into a pot that can be spent more or less as you wish. Money earned by an excellent department of marine engineering could be used to prop up a poor department of whatever. There is plenty of flexibility.

1328.

I welcome that because a council such as ours or the Department's should not be too prescriptive in telling universities precisely what to do. They need to use their own initiative. That is an important and growing matter. You are absolutely right that it is not just about links with business. Other parts of our society need, deserve and ought to receive support from the university system. I hope that this is a means of doing so.

1329.

Mr Morrison: There is a further point to be made. The council has developed research funding for local initiatives, which enables us to offer resources to the universities to help them bring forward research and development ideas in areas not normally directly supported, following the research assessment exercise.

1330.

It is interesting to note the way that the initial spend of this funding has brought the two universities together, particularly in meeting some of the matters that you discussed. Perhaps we are going in the right direction by stimulating new ideas and by supporting them outside the normal university, economy and industry interface. It gives scope to those areas in the universities which have difficulty in gaining funds flowing from the research assessment exercise.

1331.

Mr Coote: In England, there is a partnership between the funding council and the Department of Trade and Industry, which adopts a joint approach. In Northern Ireland, it has only been between the Departments so far. There may be a case for a partnership approach between the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, the Industrial Research and Technology Unit and the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment with regard to HEROBC and enterprise developments.

1332.

Mr Morrison: I would support Mr Coote's comments. It is sometimes frustrating to think that while there are distinct Government departmental plans for research there are areas where research activities overlap which would benefit from a co-ordinated response across Departments.

1333.

One could never say that this does not happen, because there are regular meetings of Northern Ireland civil servants to discuss these issues. Collaboration between Northern Ireland Departments on such issues is much easier to achieve than is the case in Whitehall.

1334.

Nevertheless, more direction is needed from the centre when the Government seek responses from industry, business and the universities on issues related to research.

1335.

Other areas of the public sector, such as hospital authorities and environmental agencies, should also be drawn into partnerships with the universities.

1336.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much, Sir Kenneth, Mr Morrison, Mr Holmes and Mr Coote. Your comments have been extremely interesting and useful. We are grateful that you gave up your time to come here and for the documents that you submitted in order to aid our inquiry. There is little doubt that we will wish to speak to you again in the future. Thank you very much. We wish you well.

1337.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: Thank you, Chairman, for your courteous reception. We are encouraged in our work by your obvious and deep interest in matters. I am sure that we can look forward to increasing the strength of Northern Ireland's university system. It is an important element in our future progress. Thank you for your invitation.

Thursday 25 January 2001

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Ms McWilliams

Witnesses:
Dr R Hamilton, )
Mr G Sloan, ) Open University
Mrs H Carlisle )

1338.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon and welcome to the Committee. This is part of our inquiry into the impact of the training system in Northern Ireland to the needs of industry. Thank you for your written submission and the copy of the slides. Are you prepared to give a short introduction and then answer questions for about one hour?

1339.

Dr Hamilton: Yes. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This is an important occasion for the Open University as it is the first time that Northern Ireland's third university has been invited to give evidence to an Assembly Committee.

1340.

The Chairperson: You are setting a precedent.

1341.

Mr R Hutchinson: You are among friends.

1342.

Dr Hamilton: That is good to know. We welcome the opportunity to talk to the Committee and to discuss our response to the consultation document.

1343.

You have had the opportunity to read our response and we hope that it will be helpful to preface our discussions by identifying some of the key issues from the Open University's point of view. We are quite happy to answer your questions and to discuss any issues.

1344.

I hope that you will find our handout helpful. We strongly agree that the tertiary sector can make a significant contribution to economic development in Northern Ireland. The articulation between education and training and industry and commerce requires clarification and some rationalisation. In particular it needs people in the two sectors to work together. The two routes have been running in parallel for a long time. The formation of the Department has begun to make them converge into one single endeavour to link education and training and economic development in Northern Ireland.

1345.

Although economic development is important, we wish to see our discussions as part of the tertiary sector's wider contribution to Northern Ireland. We do not want to neglect our significant public service sector, and contributions might improve its effectiveness and efficiency.

1346.

Studying in any sort of education sector, but particularly in the tertiary sector, makes a useful contribution to what we have called citizenship, and we have given some examples of how we define that. For example, the understanding and appreciation of other people's traditions and cultural background, of environmental issues and the responsibilities of individuals and of the corporate sector in maintaining and improving our environment. Another example is the understanding of scientific developments and how these affect everyday living and the ethical issues that surround many scientific developments, in particular, enabling people to make informed judgements about events in their daily lives.

1347.

A final example is that of social inclusion. Studying gives people the opportunity to develop their full potential and helps them to become more involved in society and to make a better contribution to it. Having said that, we recognise that the focus of our consultation is on the contribution of the tertiary sector to economic development. That is why we are here.

1348.

Most people when they think about the tertiary sector, that is higher and further education, think about the conventional university sector, the 18 to 25 cohort. They think of how we prepare that cohort for work and for its chosen career. It is a very useful preparation for young people. We have highlighted its two facets. First, it gives them the specialisation and the background knowledge to go into their chosen career. Equally importantly, it helps to give them - and perhaps there was less focus on this in the past - "employability skills". One could call them key skills, generic skills or graduate skills. These enable people to adapt and to make a useful and immediate contribution to the economy and to their employer.

1349.

It is also important to think about what happens next. What happens after the age of 25? We must consider the whole lifelong learning agenda. What does it mean for the tertiary sector and for the Open University in particular? People want to continue to learn. Some may have missed their opportunity the first time round. Will they be just left in abeyance? How do we provide opportunities for them to develop their learning?

1350.

We are focusing this afternoon on three kinds of individuals, or aspects of lifelong learning. First, we focus on ongoing professional development. It is a cliché, but nobody is now in a job for life. People need ongoing professional development. They sometimes feel that they are falling behind and they want to keep up to date in their area of endeavour, or they may wish to develop their skills. "Up-skill" is a jargon term, but it helps to describe how people's skills do not stand still. They must develop, improve and continuously work on their skill set.

1351.

There is also the area of career advancement. People who are in employment may want to change the direction of their career. For example, someone employed in a technical capacity might move into a supervisory or management position and will need to develop management skills.

1352.

The third aspect we highlight is skills development, particularly for people who have been unemployed for a long time, or for significant periods of their lives, or who have been made redundant. We all know of industries in Northern Ireland that have experienced significant redundancies recently. Those people must consider how their careers are developing and learn skills to return to employment. We are focusing on those three categories of people for whom lifelong learning is very significant.

1353.

To make such opportunities real and accessible, we feel that there is a pressing need for complementarity of provision. Most of the documents that one reads relate to the 18 to 25 cohort and to initial tertiary level education. That is the main focus. We feel that there needs to be complementarity of provision for lifelong learning. It needs to be flexible in part-time provision, day release, evening classes and, of particular interest to the Open University, the provision of open and distance learning. We need flexibility so that the courses fit in with the other demands and commitments of people who are in employment or who have other demands on their time.

1354.

In order to achieve such parity of provision there must be parity of provision in the support services, such as financial and tax incentives for individuals or for companies, training grants and fees support which could be based on outcomes rather than on mode of study.

1355.

We welcome the Minister's proposals for additional support for higher education. However, it could be argued that they still focus too much on traditional higher and further education, and that there are few proposals for part-time lifelong learning provision

1356.

There are different costs associated with study - buying books or a computer, consumables for a computer, travel to a tutorial or, in the case of Open University students, to a residential school site.

1357.

It may seem strange to mention childcare when talking about open and distance learning. However, sometimes lack of childcare prevents students from receiving the significant support that they might get from attending tutorials. The Minister's recent announcements offered additional childcare support for those in full-time education, but not for those studying part-time.

1358.

The Open University does a great deal of research on its students and it discovered that one of the greatest disincentives to continuing studies is not just the fees but the additional costs.

1359.

Our final slide illustrates the Open University's key role in supporting economic development in Northern Ireland. Some of them are listed, and the Committee will be familiar with how the Open University operates.

1360.

The Open University is a distance teaching institution taking learning to people. It does not ask people to come to it and there is no attendance requirement. It teaches through supported open learning. It has open entry and there is no entry qualification requirement for the undergraduate programme. The Open University offers structured learning to help people through their studies; it guides them and sets them goals and milestones as they work through their courses. It gives them personal support.

1361.

The Open University offers a range of provision in courses and qualifications. What the Open University calls a course most other people call a module. So for "course", read "module", and the Open University puts several modules together towards a course of study.

1362.

The Open University offers pre-degree, graduate and postgraduate qualifications. Information and communication technology (ICT), management and biosciences are some of the subjects taught through the Open University and which are particularly relevant to this exercise. My colleagues will highlight a couple of examples to show how the Open University can make its contribution.

1363.

The Open University also offers advice. It is important that mature students are given the right advice on how to choose their courses and how to prepare for them. My colleague, Mrs Carlisle, is instrumental in advising people of the support available before they begin their studies. It is crucial to support people in that way. There are notable exceptions, but most people find it difficult to do it on their own.

1364.

The Open University offers local tutors and local study centres with high-quality teaching that is widely recognised. It is subject to checks by the Quality Assurance Agency and teaching quality assessments (TQAs) that are carried out with all United Kingdom universities. The Committee may not be aware of that. I think that the 'Daily Telegraph' printed the ranking results of the TQA outcomes. That has been done twice, and in the last publication the Open University came tenth of all the universities in United Kingdom. We are very proud of that.

1365.

The Open University provides its service nationally and internationally. Students can study with the Open University in any European Union member state, including the Republic of Ireland. We are responsible for the Open University's provision throughout Ireland - North and South.

1366.

Teaching and learning are delivered through a variety of media. Different courses will select different media: video, software, and more recently, online, depending on the course. There is a great deal of online provision, particularly for some of the postgraduate courses.

1367.

Key to the university provision, we offer relevant, high-quality, state-of-the-art, flexible methods of learning, which we hope will make a significant contribution to skills enhancement and economic development in Northern Ireland.

1368.

Mr Sloan: In our main submission, sections 2.3 and 4.4 through to 4.8, we refer to the distinctive nature of open study programmes and courses, especially in IT. In your handout is appended a selection of programmes which we feel could contribute to improving the region's skills base. I am not trying to sell you these programmes, but if anyone is interested please let us know. This is not a sales pitch.

1369.

In recent months we have been encouraged by the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and by representatives of the private sector to identify these courses and to give them a higher profile. They could definitely help with the skills training objectives set out in the Northern Ireland Executive's draft Programme for Government.

1370.

I will highlight the skills gained from four of these courses - skills that are required for a competitive economy and a knowledge-based workforce in Northern Ireland. A very popular course is 'You, Your Computer and the Net', which deals with skills taught completely online through the Internet. It develops skills for studying and communicating online; experience of working collaboratively; appreciating the impact of the Internet in business; working as a group; and online working as a team. 'Creativity, Innovation and Change' is a second level course. These courses are all presented from access level through to postgraduate professional development and are for managers who wish to promote an imaginative and flexible organisation and to encourage creativity, entrepreneurism and innovation. These are taken from the Executive's Programme for Government.

1371.

'Project Management', for example, is for people who have not been in management and, while they may not like it, have to take on management responsibilities. This course is aimed specifically at helping people to take on management responsibility and to deal with the knowledge and techniques of day-to-day management. In reading through the draft Programme for Government I noticed that one of its objectives is to train a number of farmers in the region to be managers. This is precisely the sort of course that can help.

1372.

A very popular course is the fourth course dealing with the development of software, the world of e-commerce and the Internet. While commending your inclusive policy on Irish and Ulster-Scots, we have a new language here called JAVA, and it is absolutely essential to software development. We have a specific course for industry and commercial managers at professional skills level.

1373.

Those are the sorts of skills courses which we provide, and we have a selection of courses which are with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment at the moment. We are convinced that these courses could help create the knowledge-based skilled workforce that you wish to see.

1374.

As Dr Hamilton said, a feature of the programmes is the support for open learning and the advice given to students.

1375.

Mrs Carlisle: I feel like saying, "we have the technology". My expertise is mostly in student support. As well as quality and relevant courses, success is also linked to how students are supported. With the increase of shift work, supported distance learning is the only option for many workers. However, it can be quite isolated and there can be a lack of support. Certain conditions are crucial for supporting students. One of them is the point of entry: it is harder for mature students trying to find their way back into education than we might think. The students must find what is right for them as well as finding the right starting point. We have an inquiry advice system which enables those who are in interested in studying to make an appointment with an adviser to discuss their needs and aspirations and to plan a programme of study that suits each individual.

1376.

That is crucial for any person, but especially for an adult returning to education. We have diagnostic tests, many of which are now going online so that people can check to see if they will be able to enter at a particular point. The point of entry is crucial to success, and most universities now have a range, from access courses to undergraduate and postgraduate levels. Getting the right point is very important.

1377.

Once he or she is on the course, each student will have a personal tutor who will hold face-to-face tutorials and who will also be available by phone and, increasingly, online. About 80,000 Open University students are online, and the figure is increasing. It can include conferencing group work, which is an important way of learning how to use the new communications systems. We also have a system of vocational guidance. At the point of choosing and throughout the course, students can approach advisors for help and direction. That is very important.

1378.

About 80% of our students are in full-time employment, and, like all services, we are increasingly going outside traditional office hours to support students. An example is our computing help desk, which is open to students from 9.00am to 10.30pm seven days a week. If a student gets stuck at 7.00pm on Sunday, he or she can phone for help. The availability and accessibility of help are extremely important if people in work are to continue improving their skills. It is something which employers are very concerned about.

1379.

Dr Hamilton: Thank you very much for your attention. I shall certainly try to answer your questions and provide any information necessary about our responses, our presentation today and the university itself.

1380.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. As you said, no one has a job for life, something of which Assembly Members are aware.

1381.

Mr Beggs: Are all your courses entirely self-financing, or does any public money go towards them? If so, from what source? We heard recently about the success of individual learning accounts. Does that apply to your courses? Learning Direct and the University for Industry are closely related. Do they cover the same ground as you, or do you collaborate to avoid duplicating provision? How many of your students are from Northern Ireland and how many from the Northern Ireland Civil Service? Is the Civil Service encouraging the use of the Open University?

1382.

Dr Hamilton: The Open University is funded as a national institution by the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE). Since April 2000 our colleagues in Scotland have been an exception, as they are now funded directly by the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council. We receive on average about a third of the tuition costs for each student from fees and two thirds from the core grant that we get from HEFCE. It depends very much on the course and the discipline, but it is about £1000 per student from HEFCE and £600 from the student.

1383.

Mr Beggs: We receive a quiet subsidy outside the block grant which we do not wish to highlight.

1384.

Dr Hamilton: That is a slightly grey area. I do not believe that we receive such a subsidy, since there has always been a transfer of resources from the Northern Ireland privy purse to HEFCE to pay for Northern Ireland students. In essence, they are merely doing the administration, while Northern Ireland pays for the students. HEFCE core funding applies only to students resident in the United Kingdom. For outside or non-UK students we make an additional charge to cover the extra costs of supporting them. They pay the standard fee with a supplementary charge, which means that they pay marginal costs.

1385.

The supplementary fee for students from the Republic of Ireland is less than that for those whom we term "continental Western European students". These are students from all areas except the UK and the Republic of Ireland. They pay more than students from the Republic of Ireland.

1386.

We are delighted that individual learning accounts (ILAs) are available to part-time higher education students in Northern Ireland. I am sure that the Committee knows that this is not the case in England. People can - and do - apply to the OU to study with ILAs. If you wish to have more information, Mrs Carlisle can assist as she deals closely with people who might use this kind of support to study our courses.

1387.

There are practical issues for us in Northern Ireland to consider, because our colleagues in England believe that nothing happens outside England - with the possible exception of Wales. Everything that applies in England applies everywhere else in the world. They tell people who make enquiries that students are not eligible for ILAs, while we have to inform Northern Ireland students that they are. ILAs are helpful to us. They are a useful vehicle in providing financial support for those students in employment who want to progress their learning.

1388.

Learn Direct is relevant to us and the OU is not in competition with it. It will end up being a brokerage, as it is not seen as a provider. People phone Learn Direct saying that they want to learn various subjects. They will be put in contact with providers registered with Learn Direct, or the UfI as it was formerly known. The OU has a helpful telephone link with the UK Learn Direct line. When one phones Learn Direct to ask what the OU offers, the call is put through directly to our Manchester office. If the call originally comes from Northern Ireland it can be re-directed here. We have spoken to the Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA), with which we already have close links. It is taking responsibility for the Learn Direct line in Northern Ireland. Neither the OU nor EGSA sees any reason why they should not set up a similar direct telephone service.

1389.

There are about 10,000 students in the whole of Ireland, of whom about 5,000 are in the North and 5,000 in the Republic. I cannot give any immediate data about the number of our students who are civil servants, but I know that the Civil Service is supportive. We have occasionally provided information for publication in a Civil Service magazine.

1390.

Mr Beggs: Thank you. I am very encouraged by your answers.

1391.

Mr Carrick: Your presentation acknowledged that higher education can make a broad contribution to the public sector and to citizenship. You spoke about the clarification and articulation of ownership in economic development. How does this lack of articulation manifest itself? I understand the OU's academic contribution to industry, but what is its practical interaction? How can partnership between the OU and industry be developed? Who has the major responsibility for rectifying the current failings?

1392.

Dr Hamilton: I spoke of having a background in the education sector and of gradually becoming aware of developments in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment. I am in the Belfast Learning City group, which discusses skills development and graduate skills. The project on graduate skills and personal development that we referred to in our submission was carried out with the two other universities in Northern Ireland. We started to talk about the skills task force, and I became aware that similar activity was taking place in industry and commerce - this was long before the establishment of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Training and Employment.

1393.

The creation of that Department will help enormously in bringing together those two interest groups, as will documents such as 'Strategy 2010', which are in the public domain and which are widely read and recognised. The Open University has a great interest in this area and we can show how we can contribute to economic performance.

1394.

The provision of learning and training for people who are in employment has already been mentioned in our discussion, and in connection with this I carried out an exercise when we were compiling our response to the student financial support consultation exercise. I found that a fairly small percentage of our employers say that they support our students, with between 8% and 10% of them claiming that they formally sponsor their employees. Others will act more informally. They will tell an employee who wants to study with the Open University that if the employee passes his or her first course, the employer will reimburse his or her fees and support him or her after that. There are all sorts of informal arrangements. A difficulty of being a national institution is not having opportunities in Northern Ireland for technology transfer and for carrying out research for industry. We do not have the expertise and the personnel to do that. I remember receiving an enquiry, which might even have come from this Committee, about the effects of fish farming on a lough's environment.

1395.

The Chairperson: It probably was not this Committee, but it might have been another Assembly Committee.

1396.

Dr Hamilton: It was from a Committee somewhere. I contacted some of my colleagues in the appropriate Department and asked them if any of our staff had expertise in fish farming. Nobody was forthcoming. It is something that we have to battle against a lot. Northern Ireland constitutes approximately 2·5% of the United Kingdom's population, and we have slightly more than 2·7% of its students, so we are doing quite well. In the overall picture, Northern Ireland is a minnow, and it is hard to persuade people to turn their attention to Northern Ireland to address some of those issues. I want to do more about that by offering our expertise in different areas.

1397.

Mr Sloan: We are being encouraged on partnership and we have applied that to programmes that could work very well in partnership in the public and private sector. We have to market the courses that we think would fit the training agenda over the next three to five years. We have been encouraged by the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment to do that. We are trying to get closer to local companies through individual learning accounts to convince them that they need these to up-skill and that they must have a learning work force. We see this as complementary provision; we are not trying to sell the Open University. We see it as part and parcel of our objectives to boost the economy and to create a knowledge-based workforce in the next five years. Partnership will be a major theme in our development.

1398.

Dr Hamilton: You specifically asked about partnerships. If you have access to the Internet, I recommend that you go into our web site. There is a great deal of information on it about the Open University and how it works. I read on our web site about an OU group which was set up specifically to look at the needs of industry and to develop bespoke training solutions for different industries. It is easier to do that with major industries, and we already have arrangements with some of them on a multinational basis. My colleagues have spoken to the UK Passport Agency about producing a bespoke training programme for its employees, using Northern Ireland as a pilot for launching that nationally. We can begin to tailor courses to companies' needs.

1399.

This is much more difficult to do with smaller companies in Northern Ireland. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment has a role in getting groups of similar SMEs together or in working with the FE sector, which has close links with local SMEs. The Open University and FE colleges together could help build learning programmes in partnership with the company to deliver what it needs. Otherwise one is wasting one's time. I simply cannot say who is to remedy this situation. Perhaps the answer lies in this room...perhaps not.

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