COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

Report 01/01R

1400.

Mrs Carlisle: We mentioned the Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA). We need a similar independent advisory body for industry. I get a lot of phone calls from human resource managers saying "I have several people interested in this" or "I would like to put six people on a particular programme". I am aware that they must ring the Open University, FE colleges and other universities to make a judgement on the appropriate programme. That can be difficult and it would be helpful if there was a body they could approach; a body like EGSA, but more attuned to the needs of industry and companies.

1401.

Mr Sloan: This is a very interesting question. I am not suggesting that you are offloading responsibility - we are all responsible. Compared to Wales, England, Scotland or the Republic of Ireland, a very high percentage of Northern Ireland's economically active population, the 18 to 65-year-olds, is without qualifications. It is well above the average of 43%. All of us, not just the Assembly, have a responsibility. We hope to persuade you to invest in ensuring that those people get qualifications.

1402.

Mr Carrick: I accept that, but how can the Open University help improve matters?

1403.

Mr Sloan: Dr Hamilton referred to that. We have over 5,000 students, most of whom are in employment. I am not sure of the gender balance but I think that most are women. We will niche that. We are being encouraged to go into partnerships in the public and private sectors, linking with these skills courses. We will drive that forward to help you in your ambition to reduce the number without qualifications.

1404.

Mr Dallat: I would like to congratulate you on your pioneering outreach. The other two universities are in danger of catching up with you. Eighty per cent of your students are in full-time employment and many are probably in secure jobs. I would like to know about the Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA). Far too many of our people are unskilled and have been deprived of even a basic education.

1405.

We will be glad of any useful advice for a Committee report to help redress that. No institution is more qualified to advise than yours, because yours was doing it long before the other academic institutions even thought of it.

1406.

Tony Blair promised every family a computer, albeit a reconditioned one. Are people being deprived of your courses because they do not have computers? Would it help them if the provision existed? EGSA works with people with whom I have a strong affinity.

1407.

Dr Hamilton: How we widen access and make opportunities available to everyone has been exercising us for some time. We have continuously tried to think of different ways of encouraging and supporting people to undertake learning. Mrs Carlisle said that it can be very daunting even to pick up the phone to ring an organisation like ours. Most people are intimidated by the word "university"; they think they can never go there. We speak from an internal point of view, but it is interesting to look at people from the outside. We work very hard at making it easier for people to approach us.

1408.

The Open University has an office in Belfast, and we have a very accessible regional centre. The Oxford regional centre is a palatial building on the outskirts of Oxford that never sees a student, but students drop into us all the time. That is much more important. We can give people information, brochures and an opportunity to talk to Mrs Carlisle or her colleagues. They are friendly and approachable and will answer anything and everything on accessibility.

1409.

We also hold open information evenings in different parts of the country. We use local public libraries, for example, as people do not seem to be so reticent about going into a library. We set up stands with leaflets and we have evenings when advisers such as Mrs Carlisle talk to people and give them information. We try to let people find out about us without their feeling threatened or awkward. In our Level One supported entry courses the university assumes that this person has no higher education qualifications, does not have the background in the subject and does not have the study skills. We must provide all that in our teaching.

1410.

We have a very structured approach to developing learning skills such as reading constructively and effectively, putting together a piece of written work, carrying out an experiment, doing a science course or, if you have never laid a finger on a keyboard, tackling a computer. We recognise that and produce a great deal of information and support to enable people to do that. However, we recognise that some people cannot even take that step, and we are gradually introducing a series of short courses called "Openings". Many people are interested in psychology, and our two most popular subjects are computers and psychology.

1411.

As these subjects are so popular, we try to provide people with a little study to gain some experience and practice. They will not fail in it, for they are sampling the activity. Many people are without qualifications because they failed somewhere else in the system, and we do not want to give them another experience of failure. We wish to give people a taste of success.

1412.

We are very conscious of all those issues. However, one important problem remains unresolved: many people do not have a button of interest in studying. How does one attract them to help them see that a little study might make all the difference to their lives? I do not know how one would tackle that other than in the ways described.

1413.

The computing element also exercises us continuously. Many of our courses now expect students to have access to some sort of IT facility, and we publish a range of computer specifications for each course. Of course, one might say that we ask people to have a computer, but this might be a very low-specification machine. Obviously, some of the courses which Mr Sloan mentioned have a high IT content and require high-specification machines. Therefore we first give people information on the resources that they will need.

1414.

The people who are least likely to have access to such facilities are those who receive financial assistance from the university. Probably 750 of our 5000 students in the North benefit by having facilities paid for through a financial assistance scheme. They have, or have had until recently, the opportunity to hire computers from us at a small cost - about £50 for a reconditioned machine for the duration of their course. Mrs Carlisle has direct experience of advising students on computing.

1415.

I do not believe we shall be having this conversation in five years' time. These aims might take 10 years to achieve, but I feel it will be five. Everyone will access this kind of technology through their television sets.

1416.

Mr Dallat: It is important to have it now. I probably should not say this, but I have come across quite a few people with no educational skills at all who have registered and who are starting their courses. They are very keen to succeed and do not fear failure. It is important that the Assembly knows that giving support wherever humanly possible works - much as you pioneered that work in the distant past when I was with you. It has experienced a renaissance.

1417.

Mrs Carlisle: There are many people in this field, and different things are appropriate for the individual at different times. We talk to groups which have come through locally based community courses. That is often the right place for people to start if they lack confidence. The important thing is to offer progression; some people will happily remain at a certain level, while others will wish to move on. The education system must offer progression that is transparent and well co-ordinated so that people are never lost. We can all work harder at that.

1418.

The national figure is 80% in full-time employment and 20% who are either in part-time employment or who are unemployed. I am not sure how that applies to our students in Northern Ireland. However, many of the people I talk to are in low-paid jobs and they want to get back into education in some way. Their being in full-time employment often militates against them, for it is far harder to find a course that one can attend which will allow one to progress and update one's skills if one is in full-time employment. The 80% of our students who are in full-time employment are very important.

1419.

Computers are a problem. We have always automatically supplied those in need of financial assistance with a computer, although we are moving towards a system of student loans. We are thinking of introducing a system next year whereby the student will be given a loan from which he or she will have to buy a computer. The advantage for the students is that they will own the computer; the disadvantage will be the loan. It is difficult for people to buy a computer if they are not sure. We will have to work hard at providing independent advice on that.

1420.

There is no dearth of available computers. Libraries have banks of computers and computers are provided by various community groups. We must find a way to let our students access them. There might be another system of funding to allow students to buy time in other institutions. The more collaboration we have, the better our facilities.

1421.

Mr Sloan: I consider the funding of courses for part-time students vitally important. It is an opportunity worth exploring. Ron Dearing told me that it would happen three or four years ago. It has not, and it remains one of society's biggest restrictions. Our inventive use of future funding could set an example to other regions.

1422.

The Chairperson: Can you elaborate on that? What, in particular, do you suggest should be done?

1423.

Mr Sloan: I cannot elaborate on the financial mechanisms for that, as I do not know how they work here. That has already been addressed here. I know, and research has shown, that it and lack of proper childcare provision are major impediments to people, particularly women, taking that option.

1424.

Ms McWilliams: What is the breakdown of Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland students? In your literature you describe yourself as a cross-border institution. I would like to see your statistics on low wages, part-time and full-time students, gender and age. I would like to see how the statistics differ north and south of the border to compare the two systems and the different skills they produce.

1425.

What kind of students come from the Republic of Ireland and what kind come from Northern Ireland? Do they look for different courses? Are they assisted differently? I see that looking at national structures is part of Mr Sloan's remit. That may be too difficult to answer unless you have evidence on how the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland operate with regard to the Open University. How will foundation degrees affect you? It seems that, unlike the university I taught in, the Open University student had to take longer to complete a course. Accreditation was built up and students were offered great choice.

1426.

We now fast-track; two-year degrees and foundation degrees are on the horizon. How does going online increase access? It seems that many students on low wages face problems. Does your system tackle the problems of groups that are under-represented in Ulster's universities? Is the interest still from the areas of small and medium employment and prisoners?

1427.

What incentives do you propose? You suggest the establishment of an advisory board for SMEs to create incentives that would bring those groups forward.

1428.

Dr Hamilton: The University carries out significant research on students' age distribution, on whether they are employed or unemployed and their level of prior preparation - how many have conventional qualifications, for example. Approximately one third of our students do not have the conventional entry qualifications. I can give you the comparative data on age.

1429.

There are interesting differences between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. The gender breakdown shows that about 51% of the University's students are women and 49% are men. In Northern Ireland it is still about 48% women and 52% men. In Northern Ireland the university has slightly more men than women. That differential is greater in the Republic of Ireland.

1430.

The proportion of those students who are in employment in the Republic is very different. They do not receive financial assistance to study. Income tax relief on course fees is an incentive for those wishing to study an OU course in the Republic. Even if the student is not the wage earner, his or her partner will also receive the tax benefit. That is helpful because it reduces their fee by about 28%, although they must still pay fees. Apart from employer support for individual students, there is no financial assistance of the sort to which we have referred to encourage access and participation. There are thus fewer people in the Republic in this bracket.

1431.

Until recently Open University students ranged in age from 18 to 94. The oldest student in Northern Ireland decided recently that he was too old to continue studying, as it became too hard for him. Most of our students are between 35 and 40, and our median age is 37. Increasingly, young people are choosing not to enter higher education after secondary education. They choose to go into employment and study with us from that base, so the percentage in that bracket is also gradually increasing. I can tell you of many interesting trends and statistics.

1432.

We are interested in foundation degrees and recently discussed them with Robson Davison. We occasionally fall through the loopholes that exist between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. We received an invitation from either the Higher Education Funding Council for England or the Department for Education and Employment to submit proposals for pilot foundation degrees. Working with local FE colleges, the Open University has submitted three proposals through our south-eastern region, which is based in East Grinstead.

1433.

The invitation for Northern Ireland went to Queen's University and to the University of Ulster. The invitation from the Department for Education and Employment was for England and Wales only. When I pointed out to Mr Davison that we occasionally fall through such loopholes he asked if we would be interested in foundation degrees. The OU is indeed interested in them and has a couple of models that we wish to consider with the assistance of our colleagues here. These models might be used at some stage, although not for the first wave of foundation degree courses.

1434.

Advanced work has been done on two models. One is e-commerce, where we feel we could work well with local FE colleges and local industry to deliver training for SMEs to get online and to work online. We could offer a useful foundation degree.

1435.

The other area is health and social care, particularly with young people, and we have been in discussion with East Antrim FE college about that. It is in its early stages, and we do not want to launch it publicly yet as it needs much more work. However, we could work with a college such as East Antrim and perhaps with some of the trusts to design a foundation degree in child development, for example. Those are two examples in which we are very interested.

1436.

Mr Sloan: It does not necessarily have to be our foundation degree, but conceptually we could provide part of it, or a block towards it. It could work in modules, or be a full-time foundation degree.

1437.

Dr Hamilton: It usually takes Open University students longer to obtain a graduate qualification because they cannot always study the 120 points in one year which a full-time student can - if there is such a thing as a full-time student these days. Most students seem to be engaged in other activities as well as having a job. People can study in a fairly fast track mode with us. We do not recommend that people study more than 120 points a year with us, but if the opportunity arose to do so and a student was otherwise unencumbered he or she could probably study 180 points in a year and complete a degree in two years. However, we strongly advise against it, and a student adviser would tell them to consider carefully what they are undertaking; that it can be done, but it is a very big commitment. That is an example of the flexibility that we extend to higher education opportunities.

1438.

It usually takes four to six years to complete a degree, although some have taken 10. That is fine; it is the student's choice. We have one or two restrictions on particular qualifications - the MBA, for example, is time-limited - but for the most part we allow people the flexibility to study at a pace that suits them.

1439.

You linked together the advisory body and the incentives. An advisory body is a one-stop shop where industry and students can get answers to many questions about studying in the tertiary sector. The incentives might be income tax relief on course fees paid. Until quite recently that was the case for vocational courses, but a UK-wide decision was made to withdraw that. That was unfortunate, but it has now been replaced by incentives such as ILAs. We will see how that pans out and will monitor the practical effect of introducing such incentives on widening access.

1440.

Mr Sloan: Unfortunately, as you pointed out, there are many in our society who do not have the technology to access online, Internet-based teaching. We are addressing that and are trying to identify the groups which are not coming forward to the OU. There are initiatives through training companies in the private and public sectors to support IT courses through European or local funding. The Committee must look at the access level in a more structured way, now and in five years' time. We hope then to encourage those people to come forward.

1441.

Dr Hamilton: Online access is very helpful for people who travel a great deal and who might not be able to attend tutorials, or for people in remote parts of the country. They would have access not only to learning but also to conversations with other students. Once they have cleared the hurdle of familiarising themselves with the technology and have accessed an online conference, they can talk to all the other students or they can post questions to their tutors. That can happen anywhere.

1442.

Mr Sloan: A former colleague of mine at Queen's University, pro-vice-chancellor Professor Bob Cormack, used to refer to "the warm body experience". Do not get the impression that our courses are all online. There must be personal interaction in the form of support and tutorials. However, technology and the skills required to use it are readily available.

1443.

Mr Byrne: How many students are enrolled with you now compared to 10 years ago? I have been given to understand that you no longer have the BBC as a delivery medium. Is that so?

1444.

Dr Hamilton: No. There is a major BBC production centre on our central campus.

1445.

Mr Byrne: My two local papers used to devote a full page of coverage to the Open University every year, but I have not seen it for the last five years. Something has happened to the message or to the PR.

1446.

How much is now invested in study materials and how does it compare to past investment? I found them useful when I was a lecturer in a further education college.

1447.

Ms McWilliams: We used to plagiarise them.

1448.

Mrs Carlisle: Ten years ago there were between 2,500 and 2,700 students; today there are about 5,000.

1449.

Mr Byrne: Therefore there has been an increase despite competition from other institutions.

1450.

Mrs Carlisle: We have many more postgraduate and professional programmes. I am not sure about figures for undergraduates, but their numbers have risen. We have also had a significant increase in the postgraduate field and in the other new areas.

1451.

Dr Hamilton: We started to teach law, which is an interesting new subject, a couple of years ago. Diversification has attracted more students.

1452.

That is a very interesting point about our graduates, although I am sorry to hear that you missed our advertisements. Every year we produce a list of graduates and a little summary, and all graduates are invited to write a piece about themselves for publication. They give us background about themselves, about their grandchildren, for example. That is assembled centrally by our communications division and is posted to all the local papers. We invite them to contact us.

1453.

I used a local PR company until about two or three years ago when a different way of using the promotion marketing resource was introduced throughout the country and we were obliged to conform with it. We no longer have the PR company. That might be a factor. That is a very interesting observation.

1454.

Mr Byrne: In fact, there used to be a full page of coverage with individual photographs of the local graduates. It had a great spin-off effect on other people. A person's colleagues might find out for the first time that he or she had done a degree.

1455.

Mr Beggs: If one is submitting a piece, can one send a photograph with it? Local papers always like a photograph to go with the story.

1456.

Dr Hamilton: Yes. A representative of the local PR company used to attend degree ceremonies. Now a representative from the OU attends. The representative contacts students beforehand to say that he or she would like to write a piece on their achievement.

1457.

Mr Beggs: It is definitely a good local news story. The PR approach probably needs to be reviewed.

1458.

Dr Hamilton: Mr Byrne asked about investment in new materials. This figure surprises people and I usually quote it when there are complaints about our fees - particularly from non-UK students. To produce a 60 or a 30-point course costs the university on average £2 million. That is why the Open University must deliver fairly high registration. Once that has been invested, marginal costs cover print and distribution and tutor support. However, the initial investment in any one course is on average £2 million.

1459.

Mr Beggs: Does that cover the design and production of the course and the staff to ensure its viability?

1460.

Dr Hamilton: Yes. We produce courses - and it always amazes me that they are so good - by committee, with all due respect to present company. We have a course team, individual members of which are responsible for writing parts of the course. Sometimes we use external consultants to write the material, which is then rewritten into a restructured teaching mode.

1461.

Once the academics have put the course together, editors make it look more like an OU publication before the designers add pictures and illustrations. It is then printed and distributed through the postal service; multimedia aids, television programmes and software must be produced and videos must be delivered. That gives you an idea of why it costs so much, and I think that is the reason for our quality.

1462.

The Chairperson: Are there additional costs for hypertext when the course is online?

1463.

Dr Hamilton: Yes. It improves accessibility; and one of our courses is delivered completely online. Many of our courses are available online and in text, but producing in two separate mediums increases production costs.

1464.

We are doing a great deal of research into the pedagogy of teaching online. The vice-chancellor recently persuaded the university's council - we have a council, a senate and a vice-chancellor just like other universities - to take £12 million out of our reserves specifically to research and develop online teaching.

1465.

The Chairperson: I know. Thank you for coming. We found this fascinating, Dr Hamilton, Mrs Carlisle and Mr Sloan. We will consider your evidence carefully. Your written submission shows that you are working in an area which is of central importance to the inquiry, so we are very pleased to have heard your evidence. We are also pleased that the precedent has been set, as you said at the start, of recognising the Open University as the third university in the Province alongside the two traditional ones. They will make presentations later. You have got in ahead of them as well, you may note. Thank you very much; we wish you well.

1466.

Dr Hamilton: Thank you, Chairman, and we thank the Committee for its attention and for its very interesting questions. It was not as formidable as we had feared.

Thursday 1 February 2001

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:
Prof G McKenna )
Prof R Barnett ) University of Ulster
Prof J Hughes )
Prof T Scott )

1467.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon. On behalf of the Committee, it is my pleasure to welcome you, and we are grateful that you have made the time to attend. Thank you for the written submission that you provided. This session is part of our inquiry on the impact of the training system in Northern Ireland. Would you like to start by making a short presentation or speaking to your submission?

1468.

Prof McKenna: Thank you. We are delighted to contribute to this particular debate in whatever way we can.

1469.

There is a strong recognition of the importance of higher education in the knowledge-driven economy in taking forward the economic, social and cultural development of any particular region, not just within Northern Ireland, but globally. In the past year we have published a vision and strategy document, which we will leave with you, that outlines how we see ourselves as an outstanding model of a regional university with a national and international reputation for quality. We would argue that in order to fulfil our regional mission we need to maintain that reputation.

1470.

We are committed to widening participation and access to maximise the opportunities of the Northern Ireland workforce and population and to benefit the region as fully as possible. We have, as you know, very strong relationships with all 17 of the further education colleges in Northern Ireland and the agricultural colleges. We have some 4,000 students on franchise programmes with those colleges, which we believe is very important in meeting the skills needs of Northern Ireland. We are also major players in access courses and, in terms of widening participation for individuals from lower socio-economic groups 4 and 5, we are top of the league table in the United Kingdom. We are proud of that, although we recognise that more needs to be done in Northern Ireland.

1471.

We are working very closely with the further education sector in the development of foundation degrees, which we believe will be important in meeting skills shortages in Northern Ireland, and we are working closely with employers. We are enthusiastic supporters of foundation degrees as we hope that you also would be.

1472.

I want to draw your attention to one or two other features of our provision and where we are going. We have a very strong involvement in work-based learning, and at any one time we have over 3,000 students on placement in industry or within the professions. That is a very important part of our provision, and it is also important in ensuring that our graduates are ready to meet the demands of the workplace. That is reflected in the very high employment rate of our graduates.

1473.

We also recognise, in the context of Northern Ireland and its geographical dispersion of population, that higher education needs to become available throughout the Province in various ways. Not only are we active in our involvement with the further education sector but we are also very proactive in the development of electronic-based learning. In fact, I would argue that we are one of the leading universities on these islands in that development, and we have established our own company, University of Ulster Online, to take that forward. That will be particularly important in a region like Northern Ireland in ensuring that there is access at home and in the workplace to higher education in a way that has not been available before.

1474.

In relation to some of the areas where economic development is going to be particularly important and where Northern Ireland has to play its role in the world market place, we have the largest provision of information technology and computing training on these islands. That is an area that we are expanding rapidly. In our course provision, we are supporting a number of the wealth-creating sectors - information technology, biotechnology, life and health technology, engineering, tourism, and hospitality. When planning for the future, the university does not simply look and say, "What have we been doing?" We actually ask ourselves "What are the global trends? What are the future demands? How should Northern Ireland be positioning itself with input from employers and others?" So, we have been very proactive.

1475.

We have also been very supportive of small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) through things like the teaching company scheme, where we are always in the top three in the United Kingdom in terms of participation, continual professional development, and involvement with manufacturing technology partnership, which brings access to university facilities and expertise to SMEs.

1476.

We have major research strengths. We had a meeting this morning with the Higher Education Funding Council for England who were speaking with some amazement about how the University of Ulster had developed over the last 14 to 15 years, particularly in the research area, and they were commending us for that. We are translating that into new company start-ups. Twelve new companies have spun out from the university in the last 18 months.

1477.

We are very active in our science park development at Coleraine and at Magee College, and we want to expand that further. We are major players in the Belfast science park development. We now have incubators on both our Coleraine and Magee campuses to nurture those spin-outs, and we are going to develop the same at Jordanstown.

1478.

We are being very proactive in developing an entrepreneurial spirit with our undergraduates. We have established the Northern Ireland Centre for Entrepreneurship in partnership with Queen's University. As far as the University of Ulster is concerned, we will be including entrepreneurship as a compulsory component within our undergraduate programmes of science, engineering and information technology (IT) in the current year, and we intend to develop that further into the arts and social sciences in future years.

1479.

That is all I wanted to say about the University of Ulster's background and approach to meeting the skills shortages in some areas of Northern Ireland.

1480.

The Chairperson: Thank you, that was very comprehensive.

1481.

Mr Byrne: I welcome the panel from the University of Ulster, and I would like to congratulate them on their contribution to the economic development of Northern Ireland over the past 10 years. I particularly welcome the fact that they have gone outside the cloisters of the university campus, which is necessary.

1482.

On the research aspects, I am aware of the new company's approach to their incubator system. How does the vice chancellor feel that can be enhanced upon? How can it contribute towards the development of SMEs throughout Northern Ireland? Also, how difficult is it now to place students on the one-year-out sandwich part of the course? Is the onus on the college or on the student to find the place?

1483.

Prof McKenna: My colleagues may also want to comment on that. We have been very proactive. We cannot rely entirely on inward investment to solve the economic ailments of Northern Ireland, important though that is. We support inward investment in every way we can, and we work quite closely with the Industrial Development Board (IDB). We have also concluded that the knowledge base in the universities must be brought to bear for the economic benefit of the region.

1484.

In 1997 we decided, in terms of our career progression and awards for academics, to give equal status to technology and knowledge transfer relative to the more traditional academic activities for career advancement, and that has had some effect. We have also taken the view that it is perfectly legitimate for academics to have some stakehold in companies which they spin out, but there is never enough money for this. At present we are seeking ways of generating our own additional venture capital for early start-up companies to nurture and support them. That is particularly important.

1485.

If we look at the phenomenon of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Route 128 in Massachusetts, and the tremendous role that that university played in economic development, under the surface you will find that most of the new companies are not started by academics, but they are started by graduates. Therefore, we have taken the step of ensuring that an entrepreneurial spirit is instilled in our undergraduates. Although it will not be a perfect outcome, and there will be people who will not wish to go in that direction, nonetheless we must do a lot more.

1486.

We have been working very closely with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment (DHFETE) and linking that with our contacts in the Industrial Research and Technology Unit (IRTU). Robson Davison from DHFETE and Jim Wolstencroft, the chief executive of IRTU, joined us on a recent trip to the United States. We looked at what was happening in Georgia and North Carolina, which are areas where we have particular linkages, and that was very beneficial for them. That kind of joined-up thinking is possible.

1487.

Prof Hughes: As the vice chancellor says, we have two very successful on-campus incubators - one at Coleraine in biotechnology and one at Magee College focusing on technology and software. They have both been particularly successful. Recently we started an e-business incubator which is a joint venture with ICL in West Belfast on the proposed Springvale campus. An important element is that those incubators are not populated just by spin-out companies from the university, but by spin-ins who are entrepreneurial individuals in the community. That happened in Derry with the software incubator and in Belfast with the e-business incubator.

1488.

Entrepreneurs have approached the university about access to expertise in helping them start their business. We have also formed joint ventures. That contributes to the notion of developing an indigenous high technology industry here and not relying on inward investment.

1489.

Prof Barnett: At any time, the University of Ulster has about 3,000 students out on work placements, and that is quite a challenge. The university has, in its careers service, a centre for work-based learning. It is a dedicated service that liaises with employers. As the university talks to firms about employing graduates, we offer the opportunities for work-based learning at the same time, and that all dovetails in.

1490.

It is the university's responsibility to find placements for students. However the university is content if a student finds their own placement so long as it is of good quality and meets the objective of the learning experience.

1491.

The university's main objective is that the placements are of good quality and that they achieve the work-based learning objectives, because placements are assessed as part of the degree, higher national diploma (HND) or the foundation course.

1492.

Different business sectors vary. The more forward-looking sectors recognise that having a student on placement can work to their advantage - that is why the university uses the year-long placements. Firms do not want students on short placements for by the time the student is trained they are ready to leave. Longer placements are more advantageous, and we will have to look at that as foundation degrees develop. Very short placements are not beneficial.

1493.

Forward-looking firms also realise that they can get something out of the placements. In the area of IT, many students come back from a placement with a job offer. Therefore it is beneficial for the student and the firms because the firms have a year to look at a student. There are various sectors that treat placements as cheap labour, and that needs to be addressed.

1494.

There is also an increase in the demand for placements overseas, and the university helps arrange those. They are important in widening the horizons of students.

1495.

Prof McKenna: Prof Scott would like to say something about support for new companies off-campus and incubation.

1496.

Prof Scott: One concept of the incubation requirement is that it not only provides a support in the start-up company but it also provides access to a range of other supports such as longer term access to finance, seed funding, venture capital and business angels. One of our incubators had a partner showcase and networking event. To those type of events we would invite individuals that are not on the campus. We are working towards developing a network, a hub-and-spoke-type relationship, with the Omagh College of Further Education, Fermanagh College of Further Education and colleges in Dungannon, Newry and Ballymena. As we have the required expertise and the level of investment funding, we must provide introductions.

1497.

Therefore an individual would not be disadvantaged if they are not on the campus because they do have access to the facilities. It is particularly important that start-up companies have access to the testing and technology environment. Equally important is the access to finance. We find that an introduction to the business and investment funds is particularly beneficial.

1498.

Mrs Carson: Page 2 of your submission states that local employers do not provide mechanisms to develop and enhance graduates' skills. It also states that the majority of graduates recorded a low level of utilisation of their skills. It is said that few employers have a training policy and the identification of training needs and that their implementation is largely left to the employers. Most industries and businesses have a training person on staff to look after training needs.

1499.

If you see those as failings, how can you address them? If you think incentives should be put in place to encourage more training in establishments in the private sector and in industry, how do you see that progressing?

1500.

Prof McKenna: That refers to a study produced recently, and it was the view of graduates employed in industry. The reality is that the larger the enterprise, the more likely they are to have a training policy with people in place. Some of the smaller employers do not have that resource for a variety of reasons. The same employers do not always see the value of research and development in relation to future development and are living hand-to-mouth, which brings its own difficulties. We would argue that tax credits, et cetera, should be in place to support training because there are SMEs which, if they do not move forward with the times and face the global challenges, may not exist in the future.

1501.

Prof Hughes: The software industry in Northern Ireland is largely SME-based with the exception of the big inward investors. The problem these SMEs face is that they have to move quickly to keep their heads above water, and they do not have time to invest in long-term training. We are offering them easier routes to training through continuous professional development, easier access to the university's programmes, and accredited workplace learning, rather than the employees having to take time off to come to the university campus to do a master's degree, or whatever. We integrate the training programme with the professional work they are undertaking, and that can be a major attraction, in particular to the high-technology industry.

1502.

Prof Barnett: In the survey, three quarters of the graduates were from the SME sector and there is an issue there for policy. The research and development factor for the SME sector is high risk, because they are not able to spread their risks. Training represents a high fixed cost in relation to putting the training programme in place for what is obviously quite a small number of employees, given the dominance of SMEs.

1503.

Mr Dallat: I am sure that the rest of the Committee will join me in wishing Prof McKenna all the best for tomorrow. He will now be allowed to graze his sheep in Coleraine town centre. It is quite a recognition for the university. My apologies for embarrassing you.

1504.

Clearly the success of the university is something to do with partnerships with outside bodies like local councils. The Committee would want to know how critical and important that has been in achieving success to date. Also, how will the university continue to protect the interests of graduates outside IT and biotechnology, et cetera, and still have the status that they had perhaps in the old days? In other words, will those students coming through the traditional arts and humanities faculties be treated as equal?

1505.

Prof McKenna: Thank you for your opening kind comments, Mr Dallat.

1506.

Partnership is everything in economic, social and cultural development in Northern Ireland and elsewhere. Universities cannot operate in isolation; they must operate as part of the community in which they are based. The University of Ulster takes its title very seriously and sees itself as having responsibility to all parts of Northern Ireland and beyond. Partnerships are crucial and it is important when one looks at success stories elsewhere in the world where there have been economic miracles. Examples are the states of Georgia and North Carolina in the United States, where there has been tremendous economic development. Not only are their universities strong, but there is a common vision between the universities, industry and the state in relation to how to go forward on a variety of fronts.

1507.

Things can happen when shared vision and leadership are there. I often contrast why things happen in North Carolina but not in South Carolina. They happen because there is clearer leadership and vision at state level in one state than in the other. Partnership is everything.

1508.

As for graduates in disciplines other than those which are viewed as being at the heart of wealth creation, we obviously value all our graduates equally. It is important for a range of disciplines to be available in any region. It is a hallmark of a civilised society. However, we are obliged to investigate the way that arts graduates are prepared for the world of work. For example, while I said that entrepreneurship was being introduced to informatics, science and engineering this year, it is our intention to extend that to social sciences and humanities in the future.

1509.

There is an important area of wealth creation in the creative industries which needs to be developed. We believe that our school of art and design and some of our other activities, such as music technology, will play an important role in that. It is my strong opinion that our faculty of arts, for example, must see itself as being at the centre of cultural development in Northern Ireland. It should not be on the sidelines or just commenting on it. It should be working with local communities to show that the arts are relevant. We need to ensure that in every degree there are transferable skills which are extremely valuable, irrespective of the particular career that a graduate decides to follow.

1510.

Ms McWilliams: Once again, I must declare a conflict of interest. I am on a leave of absence from the university and, depending upon the voters, it may be my future employer again. I have to be nice to the witnesses.

1511.

I commend you for the in-depth manner in which you helped the Committee answer these questions about skills shortages and where some of the problems lie. I also commend you, Prof Scott, for addressing, as the Committee has been doing, the issue of extending some work-based placements beyond the areas of science, engineering and technology, because if we want an entrepreneurial spirit it will probably have to be right across the board.

1512.

After reading the submission, I am somewhat concerned that you want partnership to start with the schools, so that students think along those lines before going to university. You are clearly pointing to some change in subject choice as the cause of skills shortages in certain areas. Obviously, credit accumulation cannot affect that in the same way that it did in work-based learning, et cetera. How much outreach are the universities, particularly the University of Ulster, engaged in with regard to student awareness of where industry and business is going?

1513.

The Chairman and I recently attended the launch of a Dublin-based company, CardBASE Technologies, in my constituency in Belfast. We were pleased that they brought highly skilled jobs. To what extent does the IDB involve the universities? I note that IT is highlighted as an area in which we can become very attractive in the future. We obviously want to look at that, because IT offers much higher paid jobs in comparison to the call centres which we seem to be attracting. Are you in there from the beginning?

1514.

You also raised the issue of seeking more Government support. That always sounds as if it means more money, but could it be support in kind? What forms could that take?

1515.

Prof McKenna: We must ensure that there is an awareness in schools of where the global economy is going and how young people will need to prepare themselves for that.

1516.

We do our best, visiting lots of schools and talking to head teachers about where things are going. Unfortunately, there are pockets and areas in Northern Ireland where there is real underperformance in people getting to university. That applies particularly to science-based subjects. The majority of access programmes have led people to go into the arts and social sciences, rather than the sciences.

1517.

We have the 'Step Up' programme running in Derry, which is targeting schools in disadvantaged areas, encouraging and working with those schools to improve their science base and the capabilities of their pupils. A successful outcome would be more children doing science-based programmes at university. If that programme is successful, and the Higher Education Funding Council for England has cited it as a model of best practice, then it would seem appropriate that, working with our partners in FE, it should be extended throughout Northern Ireland. There are areas throughout Northern Ireland where there is underperformance, particularly among young males, and this needs to be addressed.

1518.

However, it is not just the universities, the schools have to be on board as well. There are real skills shortages, and in addition to universities thinking about where the skills shortages are and will be in the future, our FE partners need to be on board too. We are very supportive of the new foundation degrees, and we will be pushing them very strongly in those areas with existing and future skills shortages. Universities have to judge where things are going to be in the future and base planning on that, rather than be saying "This is the skills base of the staff we have, so these are the only programmes we can offer." We encourage our FE partners to move in that direction as well, and work with them on staff development so that they can meet that particular demand.

1519.

On inward investment, we work closely with IDB, and that liaison and association has improved greatly in the last couple of years. This has been greatly supported by the development of a regional development office under Prof Scott, but also through our involvement with the science park development. Our chief executive of the science park meets regularly with IDB and we are now becoming involved at an earlier stage in the process. We need to be given some indication whether this is a long shot or a real possibility, in which case we will pull out the stops more.

1520.

The dean of science, some others and myself are going to Florida this month to try and attract an inward investment company in the 'life and health' technology sector. We do this quite regularly - if there is a real prospect, we will be there.

1521.

Prof Barnett: With regards to the 'Step Up' programme in science, an unexpected side effect, which does relate to your question, is the involvement of industry. They have co-funded what we are doing, along with arranging industrial visits. Many of the children from working class areas are not clear what scientists do. It is not just a matter of getting them to take up science at school, and then we get them in lower sixth. During that year we get them out into industry, linking visits into the teaching. This has proved to be one of the most positive aspects of the programme.

1522.

Adding to what Prof McKenna said about the foundation degrees, it does actually link with inward investment and the discussions we have been having with the colleges. Hence, we can be very responsive. This is not a national qualification; it is a regional qualification that can be tailored towards local inward investment needs. When firms are discussing inward investment, we can work with the college in putting on the relevant skills training at the higher professional/ associate professional technical level, to aid the inward investment rather than being sluggish as perhaps we were in the past.

1523.

Ms McWilliams: There was also an issue about Government support.

1524.

Prof McKenna: Government support can be also geared around our having an open arrangement with them, so that we are aware of what each other is thinking. From our point of view, there is also the opportunity for inward investors to think about investing in the university, in their own interest. An example would be endowing chairs or putting more resources into a particular area which will benefit their sector. The closer our relationship with the Government, at an early stage in these developments, the better. There have been some examples where that has happened.

1525.

Ms McWilliams: Do you have many endowed chairs?

1526.

Prof McKenna: No we have about three.

1527.

Prof Scott: I would like to add to the comment made about support from the Government. We are currently developing structures for the new economic development agency. We have been trying to open dialogue on the type of arrangements and framework for communication that there might be between the universities and the new agency. We currently interact in several ways, as the vice-chancellor has said, in the area of inward investment and start-up companies. Both universities have moved into this new area, and we are taking the lead in entrepreneurship training. We are particularly keen to ensure that the new agency embraces its responsibility in this area. It is possible that a client executive from the agency could be placed in the university to support the training. This would ensure that a better quality of business plan emerges from the student body. There is a huge staff development issue in relation to entrepreneurship training. As we roll out entrepreneurship training, we need to train the trainers. We have been discussing with the agency how it can facilitate and support that training. This will be done in partnership with the agency as we have a shared vision.

1528.

The Chairperson: You mentioned the entrepreneurial aspect of education, and I think that the vice-chancellor said it is compulsory. Who teaches the entrepreneurship? Is it the lecturers in normal subjects or is it done by discrete educators in entrepreneurship?

1529.

Prof McKenna: It is a mixture of the two. We have a large business and management faculty, which we can access in various ways. In addition, some of our academics in engineering, science and informatics are extremely entrepreneurial, having been involved in patenting and licensing intellectual property and so forth. We are also currently recruiting a number of role models from outside the university, some of whom will come from the United States. It is hoped that they will be seen as the kind of role models that young undergraduates will aspire to emulate. It is a mixture of all those factors.

1530.

Prof Scott: The Centre for Entrepreneurship was established as a result of a competitive bid to the Science Enterprise Challenge. That is why we will be rolling out a programme with an initial focus on engineering, computing and science. We are discussing with the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure how we can support the implementation of entrepreneurship, citizenship and social entrepreneurship to the other disciplines.

1531.

I pointed out that the teaching element is a challenge, involving students in science, engineering and computing. Certain generic aspects can be delivered from our faculty of business and management. The University of Ulster has the advantage of having a well-established business and management faculty. However, if the project is to be sustained, it is important that the disciplines have ownership of their subject areas. We are very keen to ensure that there must also be role models in the disciplines. For example, if you are talking about food science, there must be a food scientist present to teach, or software engineer, or an environmental scientist, or whatever, depending on the discipline. It is important in that it is a rolling process. Our first programme is beginning next week, and LEDU is working with us on that. The Queen's University programme will begin later this year.

1532.

Mr Beggs: I welcome you all. I enjoyed the visit to Magee College, when we met some of you. There has been considerable expansion in higher education over the last number of years, further expansion is planned to reflect the needs of the economy and to fill shortages. Will you give us some background as to the mechanisms that the university and the Department use to determine where new higher education places will be?

1533.

Are you satisfied with the mechanism for deciding where they are established? Is the system responsive enough? Is there too much of a time lag? Is supply meeting demand? Other witnesses have addressed the issue of careers guidance. Is there a useful careers guidance service for students leaving university and for school leavers? I value the sandwich course system which you have. I took a year out before going to another university in Northern Ireland.

1534.

Does careers guidance sufficiently cover non-academic subjects and practical experience? The universities have noted a marked decline in the number of students studying A level maths and physics. As a result there have been gaps in subjects such as engineering and computer studies.

1535.

What has the university done to address this problem? I realise that its causes lie in the secondary not the tertiary level of education, but have you worked with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment, and with schools to make people aware of the opportunities in industry with these subjects? How can this weakness be corrected?

1536.

Prof McKenna: I will try to answer those three very easy questions. [Laughter]. Some 15,000 Northern Ireland students are studying outside Northern Ireland at any time. There should, of course, be no bar on students going to study wherever they want. However, our evidence suggests that about half of those who leave do so reluctantly. They leave because they cannot get into either of Northern Ireland's universities. By and large they do not return. That is a severe economic drain on Northern Ireland - no region can afford such a loss of talent, and the spending power that leaves with it.

1537.

We have a very clear central planning process in the university, which we go through every year but which we also have on a 10-year plan. The university is looking at a 10-year horizon. Looking at global trends to find out if we are offering programmes which might already be out of date is part of the planning process. We have been fairly ruthless in getting rid of programmes which we have found to be obsolete. We also have regular dialogue with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment's officials to discuss future plans. We never get the response we would like, as they have to argue their case with the Department of Finance and Personnel for additional numbers. We have been disappointed in the current year's increase in student numbers.

1538.

It is a centrally planned process; we do not simply rely on bottom-up. Of course, in the university we have to hold dialogue with other faculties to discuss other possibilities. We are always looking towards where we believe demand will be in the future to see how we will deal with it. That informs our discussions with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment. In recent years we have sent virtually all the additional students which the university has received to the north-west, because we felt that that was important to Northern Ireland. We seek to expand our numbers there as much as we can.

1539.

In terms of university guidance, I think we would be reasonably happy - although we are never totally happy -that our careers service does give adequate guidance to our students when they are with us. That is reflected in our very high employment rates, and in the courses we offer. The placement year, to which you referred, is very important. We would be a bit more concerned about careers guidance at the school level, and the choices which some young people make. Those do not always seem to us to be based on good information. Some of the places they go to and some of the programmes they do seem a little odd, and I wonder about that. The careers service needs to be aware of new technologies and of where things are going. It is, however, very difficult because if you introduce a programme with a new title in Northern Ireland it will almost certainly get no applications, or very few. We therefore have a job to try and sell those to schools. We do our best, but it can take time to build up. There is room for careers teachers, perhaps, to be a bit better informed than they are.

1540.

As regards the decline in demand for maths and physics, there are two problems. One is that there has been something of a decline in the number of students studying maths and physics at A level. The other difficulty is that very often, having studied those subjects, they do not subsequently go into science and engineering. They go off and do other things at university. We have been talking to the Nuffield Foundation about some programmes which have been pioneered in England, particularly in association with the University of York, which look at a more practically oriented physics and science A level curriculum. That seems to be working, and we are going to see if there are ways in which they might be introduced in Northern Ireland. In other words, how do we make physics and mathematics exciting? They are extremely exciting subjects, but somehow we have managed to put students off them, for whatever reason. We are looking at that, and we will have to be much more innovative as a region in encouraging and making our kids interested in these subjects.

1541.

Prof Hughes: To reinforce the last point, one of the ways we have tackled the maths and physics deficiencies in our engineering and IT programmes is to integrate the mathematics teaching with the teaching of the subject. The students then see the relevance of the mathematics, which is taught in parallel with the engineering or IT subject. That has led to some significant successes over the last few years in the university.

1542.

Mr Beggs: With regard to schools careers guidance, you are widely travelled. From your international experience, are you aware of any other models of a more responsive careers guidance service having been established, so that more up-to-date and current advice can be given to students on all the available options?

1543.

Prof McKenna: I have noticed, for example, that students in the Irish Republic seem to be much more likely to take on new disciplines and interdisciplinary programmes than is the case in Northern Ireland. That may, however, be a reflection of the Leaving Certificate versus the A level situation. We, as a university, would argue that A level preparation is much too narrow, that people have to specialise far too early, and that a broader-based curriculum up to 18 would be beneficial. Given the fact that many of the new technologies are interdisciplinary, you need to combine. The days of chemistry on its own are over. It is now biology, chemistry, physics - all integrated in various ways. Giving up languages, or aspects of humanities, at 16 to concentrate solely on science is not desirable. Whereas 20 years ago most universities would have argued strongly for retaining the A level system, I think that the bulk of universities would currently argue for a much broader system post-16.

1544.

Mr Byrne: I am not a scientist, but I agree with the vice-chancellor on the issue of the broader curriculum at 18, rather than three or four subjects at A level.

1545.

With regard to the decline in the numbers of students going into science, I am told by grammar school science teachers that double-award science - which was introduced at GCSE level some years ago - has had a detrimental effect on preparing people for individual science disciplines at A level.

1546.

In relation to maths, in the past many schools offered GCSE additional maths to some pupils, which helped them to prepare for A level maths, as well as for physics.

1547.

Would the vice-chancellor like to comment on that?

1548.

Prof McKenna: It seems to be that to follow a science-based career, students really need to do triple-award science at GCSE level. I am concerned that straight GCSE maths is not a sufficient basis for any subject that has any significant mathematical requirements at university level. My colleagues might disagree with that, but it does seem to be a fairly widespread view.

1549.

Ms McWilliams: Are those responsible for curriculum development hearing this from you? How much overlap is there between you and them?

1550.

Prof Barnett: We do discuss matters with them. There may be some opportunities now as the AS levels develop. One example of combining technology and design, linking creative industry with manufacturing, is our very popular degree in design and technology. It took some years to get going. There was an A level in that area but the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) announced that it was stopping it. That was one of the things that combined design with technology. The vice-chancellor wrote to the chief executive and I understand that the CCEA is going to keep the current curriculum and revise the subject later. I am not sure how the decision was made, but the kind of student we want is one who can combine creativity with technical knowledge.

1551.

Ms McWilliams: I made this point before, when I visited Magee College and saw the huge numbers of students there. I explained that my son was deciding about taking computer studies, so I took home the syllabus. It was the most boring thing I ever read in my life, and I wondered how any child could be expected to do it? Then I discovered that the English teacher had been given responsibility for teaching it. At the school meeting, I asked him how he learned the subject. He said that he had to go and read a manual. There was no training and no personal development. Those responsible for curriculum development have probably not looked at that syllabus for 10 years. It is all about the hardware of a computer. There are clearly some problems regarding subject choice.

1552.

Prof Hughes: There is a problem with teacher training in computing, mathematics, physics and other subjects. How many graduates from those disciplines go into school teaching? The number has plummeted in recent years and the teaching of these subjects tends to be handed to other teachers.

1553.

Ms McWilliams: That is right.

1554.

Prof Scott: The other thing is that there has not been teacher support for those interested in professional development. We had an MSc in education technology, but once teacher support was withdrawn the numbers immediately plummeted and the course became unviable. We have just rolled out a programme with further education colleges in which we do a linked award with a postgraduate diploma and master's degree in three different centres. At the same time, the Department has withdrawn support for the professional development of teachers.

1555.

Additionally, there is a need to encourage staff in the secondary sector, as well as students in the higher education sector, to engage in some period of work placement.

1556.

The Chairperson: That is a good point.

1557.

Mrs Nelis: I commend you on the way that the university has facilitated a return to study. Your record on mature students is excellent, particularly those in the 'Step Up' programme. It is addressing the needs of a particular generation that could not avail of second, or third, level education and which now represents your best students.

1558.

I represent the Foyle constituency, and I know Prof Scott quite well. She does excellent research and incubator work. The latest statistics tell me that my constituency has double the Northern Ireland average level of unemployment.

1559.

Recently, I wrote to Halifax plc, following the announcement that it was locating its call-centre jobs in Belfast. I asked why it had chosen Belfast rather than Foyle? The Halifax responded with a list of reasons. Those reasons were mostly to do with infrastructure, but another factor was the shortage of skills. From reading your presentation, it appears that 30% of our graduates go to the Republic of Ireland. Is that part of the skills shortage? Is there a better incentive attracting them there? How can we retain our graduates? Are we not providing the pre-employment incentives to keep them here? Furthermore, are we not marketing ourselves enough?

1560.

What support do you need from the Government? Of course, you need financial support, but is support needed in curriculum development or other areas? The acute shortages in engineering has been mentioned. There is a demand for engineering graduates because of that shortage How can we address that?

1561.

Prof McKenna: A significant proportion of our graduates do go to the Irish Republic. The reason for that is because there are jobs for them there with higher salaries than they can attract in Northern Ireland. In one sense, that is a problem. In another sense, it represents an opportunity. For example, one of the key factors in inward investment is the supply of well-skilled individuals. We are increasing rapidly, at every opportunity, our numbers in computing, information technology and engineering - all those areas where there is demand, or where there will be demand in the future. Obviously, that is not something that the university can do on its own. The university must work together with the Government and the local communities on this. That will ensure that a particular area, city or region is marketed effectively. We have actively supported inward investment in every way possible, by way of our incubators and start-up companies.

1562.

Some companies in the Irish Republic are now considering moving to the North because of the skill shortages which they are now encountering in the Republic, in what is essentially a full employment situation. They will move close to where graduates are being produced. Inevitably, therefore, there will be some benefit from the Celtic tiger, and that is beginning to be seen in Northern Ireland.

1563.

We are increasing our numbers in engineering and informatics. In comparison to the trends in Great Britain, we have an increase in demand for our engineering programmes in Northern Ireland. That is extremely comforting. The same applies to information technology. Furthermore, completely against the trends in GB and the Irish Republic, about 40% of our undergraduates are female in areas such as computing and information technology. That is very positive. However, it is a difficult matter that you raise, and we must work closely with others. In those areas where there is significant economic, high-technology based activity you find a partnership involving the Government, universities, industry and the community working together. We have had more dialogue with the Government and with politicians in the last year than we had in the past 20 years. The fact that we are present today is an indication of the change.

1564.

Mrs Nelis: Have the changes in student finance affected access?

1565.

Prof McKenna: The changes in student finance relate to the introduction of loans and the payment of fees. Some 60% of our students do not pay fees, because they come from socio-economic backgrounds that do not require them to pay fees.

1566.

Inevitably, there is increased pressure, particularly because of the loan situation, on people from disadvantaged lower socio-economic groups, and they may be deterred from going to university. There is an issue there that to some extent is being addressed by the recent package. We encourage funding being targeted towards those groups that are most in need of it. It is an even bigger problem for those who have to leave Northern Ireland in an economic situation where they have to take out loans. They would actually be able to stay at home more cheaply - and even live at home - while going to university if there were places available for them, but there are not.

1567.

Prof Scott: I want to comment on Mrs Nelis's point about the Halifax. Obviously infrastructure is always going to be a big deciding factor, but the types of job involved in the call centre mostly relate to students coming out of the further education sector. As the vice-chancellor and Prof Barnett have said the university works very closely with each of the further education colleges. We are doing that in cognisance of the outcome of the skills task force, so that we do not start a programme where there is just a notion that there might be provision or demand.

1568.

As well as having a business plan for each potential programme, we look very closely at the support and sponsorship that would be available from within that particular area. So, for example, if we are looking at a programme in Dungannon or Omagh, we look at the employment opportunities. In each of the programmes, before the approval process, we engage with representatives of the constituent group of potential employers from the locality.

1569.

In relation to graduates going across the border, you cannot compete with the companies that are providing a "golden hello" of up to £3,000 as an introduction. In the cross-border areas, work is ongoing on a number of innovative programmes - for instance, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Derry are working with Sligo, Donegal and Leitrim - to try to ensure that the north-west region has the infrastructure to support entrepreneurs who emerge from the tertiary sector, and also to attract back entrepreneurs who have left the area.

1570.

Prof Barnett: Another programme that we introduced at Magee recently and that has expanded massively over the last few years - there are over 100 students doing it now - is the intensive conversion programme in computing at master's level for humanities students. A pattern is emerging. Students who do a humanities course do something that they are interested in and want to do. The universities then find that the students will pay for themselves to do an intensive one-year master's course in computing because it is a very good investment for them. It is offered at Magee and has almost 100 full-time students and lots of part-time students as well. That is a course that is responsive and provides a skills base for people.

1571.

Prof Hughes: I would like to return to the issue of our losing so many of our high-tech graduates to the South. When I was dean of informatics, I looked into this quite closely. A key issue is the quality of the job. These days, high-tech graduates coming out of engineering and computing want to work with the latest technology, with wireless application protocol (WAP) phones and telecommunications, and so on. Therefore they go to firms such as Eriksson, Microsoft and Intel, which are all down South. That is the reason and it reinforces the point, which was raised earlier, that we really need to develop quickly our indigenous high-technology industry because we cannot rely on inward investment in the same way, or to the same extent, as the South. It creates a very fragile economy if you are relying totally on companies that can up and go at 24 hours notice, as happened with Seagate a couple of years ago in Clonmel.

1572.

The Chairperson: Finally, I have two quick questions. As Monica McWilliams did, I declare an interest. For the record, I have leave of absence from "another place".

1573.

My first question is provoked by Joan Carson's earlier point. In your submission you referred to the perception of your graduates that they were being underutilised by employers. Some would argue - and this is not necessarily my view - that that is indicative, and that we have almost moved to a position of educating too high a proportion of the relevant cohort at the higher education level.

1574.

That view was put very strongly in a recent leader article in 'The Times', and various rather colourful examples were given about modules and subjects which may be perceived as lacking in rigour or economic application. I am sure that they do not relate to your university. That is one question, and it reflects a view which, as I have already said, I do not necessarily share.

1575.

The other question relates to the fact that in various parts of the UK, particularly in Scotland and the Midlands of England, notions of mergers of higher education institutions are in the air. There is a perception that there are too many institutions. Again, that is not necessarily my own view, but how do you see your co-operation with Queen's University developing in the future? How can our two universities -or three, if one includes the Open University - be configured for the best benefit of the Province as a whole?

1576.

Prof McKenna: I find it difficult to respond to the issue of there being too many graduates. I can imagine 'The Times' having that view. It probably feels that two universities would be enough for the whole of the UK. [Laughter] If one looks at high-tech, highly developed, progressive economies across the world, one will find a very high proportion of highly skilled people being produced. There is unanimity that that is important. Someone has said that a country never went bankrupt by over-educating its population.

1577.

That is not to say that there are not skills shortages below the level of graduate, and that is why we are addressing that issue with our foundation degrees and working with the further education sector. However, I do not think that any of us believe that the current Northern Ireland economy is the economy that we aspire to having. We want a much stronger economy and much more investment. That argues for having more, rather than less, graduates. The economy here is at an immature stage, and we all are aware of the reasons for that.

1578.

On mergers, Sir David Watson said last week that he thought that the average British university was too small to be competitive in the global economy. He cited the example of American state universities with an average of 31,000 students. The UK average is about 17,000. The Northern Ireland universities are slightly above the average in that respect. I do not necessarily think that you would have a more responsive system by having one monolithic institution as compared to having two strong institutions that complement each other in various ways.

1579.

There is a lot of co-operation between the two universities. For example, we are working very closely together on the science park development in Belfast. We have jointly approached the Universities Challenge Fund to bring money into Northern Ireland that would not otherwise have come. The Northern Ireland Centre for Entrepreneurship, which Prof Scott mentioned, is a joint venture. Other joint ventures are the teaching company scheme and the Science Shop. We pool resources and work together where it is appropriate.

1580.

By and large, our approach to many things is somewhat different, and I think that Northern Ireland is served better by that complementary balance. Our particular strengths - in the life and health sciences - are not matched at Queen's University. In our major strength of informatics we have much larger provision than Queen's, and our faculty of business management is also much larger. We have complementary institutions, and obviously there is a need for us to discuss various issues together. I can assure you that the vice-chancellors meet frequently, and we discuss our approach on various matters. That has been extremely beneficial. I think that we have the right level of co-operation. We are both complementary and rather different institutions. We ought to cherish that.

1581.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. We appreciate that you have made time in your busy schedules to come along this afternoon. It has been very interesting, and we will carefully attend to what you have said orally and in your written submission. We may want to come back to you on this inquiry, or other related issues. We wish you well with your good work.

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