COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

Report 01/01R

1113.

It is too simplistic to say that if the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment cannot give you £40 million then you will turn to private investment. You say that it is difficult to get businesses to invest in education, because they will only take out of it what they want, yet you are also saying that it is OK for private investment in buildings, land et cetera.

1114.

Prof Murphy: I am not saying that it is OK. I am saying that it is OK if you say it is OK - you make the decisions and I do not. I take Mr Kelly's point. The difference is that we are training people, for instance, for a firm "X", which wants 50 computer graduates by next Tuesday - or whatever it happens to be - and that is what is in it for them.

1115.

In PFI the private provider gets the profit. That is the whole point. That is what the private sector is all about. As far as the private sector is concerned, it is making a profit from the sale of buildings, or from building the buildings. The profit from the sale of buildings is restricted by Treasury guidelines, and, if it goes beyond a certain level, we get a part of it as well. There are rules on that. But the private sector also wants to make profits from the provision of cleaning services, catering services, boarders and that type of thing.

1116.

Mr J Kelly: Car parking.

1117.

Prof Murphy: Yes, car parking as well. At Millfield we have cut all that back to a minimum. For example, we run catering courses and we use our own catering for those purposes.

1118.

I am not putting it forward, but there is a counter-argument when it comes to the private sector. What do I know about catering, porterage, security or cleaning? My job is to provide education; the core business is teaching. Let me and my staff specialise in that and buy in services from other specialists who are good at providing cleaning, catering and so on. The other argument is, of course, that this is a public sector provision and the public sector should provide it. These are the two arguments.

1119.

Those issues, with all due respect, are for the Assembly to resolve. When that debate is settled and you have got an answer, I, as director of the Institute, will implement that. I will implement it better than anyone else, but I need to know where I am going. Are you giving me direction on this?

1120.

The Chairperson: Have you found that there are cost savings in your concentrating on the core service of teaching and putting the peripheral service activities out to the private sector?

1121.

Prof Murphy: We have given as little as possible to the private sector. That is our policy. The building is only under construction at the moment, so it is too early to say. Having said that, if I were in the private sector I would see wonderful business opportunities in the provision of management information systems, computer systems and electronic systems. There is money there. The private sector has not yet got its act together either. It should be offering those systems. They are far more lucrative than cleaning and that type of thing.

1122.

The Chairperson: That is true. We are very grateful for your submission in relation to our inquiry on the training system. One of the key issues in the inquiry is the sub-degree level of qualification. There is some evidence - for example, in the recent Economic Research Centre Report, and from other sources - to indicate that the critical gap in labour-supply provision is at that level. How should we respond to that? I am particularly interested in your institute's view on this. Should we work with the existing HND qualification, develop it, and perhaps deal with some of the difficulties surrounding it? Alternatively, should we go for the new proposal of the two-year foundation degree.

1123.

Prof Murphy: When producing trained people for industry, are we doing it solely for Northern Ireland or for all of Ireland, the UK, Europe and the American market as well? If you say that we are producing for the Northern Ireland market, then you must tell us to produce only for the Northern Ireland market. You must decide what is to be done.

1124.

At the same time, we turn away 3,000 higher education applicants every year. They leave Northern Ireland. They cannot get onto an HND course in our institute, but they can qualify for a degree in one of the British universities. On your sub-degree point, there is a gap in the further education provision in Northern Ireland.

1125.

We are good at community education, and we have a very broad base. We are not bad at further education. Then we narrow in at the top with higher education. The money we make on higher education - and it is lucrative, even though we are only funded at a third of the rate that the universities are for the same course - is reinvested into community education.

1126.

The funding for community education comes from the money made in Whiterock, Tower Street or the 200 other centres. I would like to ask if that is what we are meant to be doing? Should that money fund further education at community education level? That can be contrasted with the situation in the South of Ireland, which has institutes of technology - formerly regional Technical Colleges - for which we have no equivalent. We had a polytechnic that we lost when it became a university. There is an argument for expanding the top of our pyramid to include institutes of technology, polytechnics or something similar - it does not matter what they are called. Northern Ireland needs at least one, and possibly two or three. I have bad news for Mr Dallat, because they would probably be somewhere in Belfast, the north west or somewhere else. He might want to get in quickly and get one for his constituency. Seriously, that type of provision is required.

1127.

The Chairperson: I knew where this was heading.

1128.

Mr Beggs: That is a separate question.

1129.

Prof Murphy: In relation to your question on HNDs, they are very often seen as a stepping stone rather than a final product. The idea is to create what are called 'foundation degrees', which are meant to be two-year degrees. The CBI and the entire spectrum of employers do not regard these as real degrees. A one year top-up is needed when the course is complete. I am not sure if that would solve anything. It must be remembered that the universities have a large say in that. They will determine what we can and cannot run - we would not have any say. The good thing - I do not know whether Mr Kelly would think it good or bad - is that the private sector and industry will have a say in the content and running of the sub-degrees. Private industry was previously involved when Mrs Thatcher brought it in on NVQs and competence levels. The word in the sector is that NVQs are not particularly good and that the standards are not liked. When I say to the private sector "They are your standards, not mine", it says, "Nobody asked me about the standards." That is how it is.

1130.

The sub-degree level needs examination with regard to its purpose. The question of who will provide it also needs to be raised. I would argue strongly for some form of review of further education. I would also argue for a serious examination of the possibility of introducing the equivalent of institutes of technology in Northern Ireland.

1131.

Mr Beggs: I am not knowledgeable about the continuing education sector, but over the last year I have become more familiar with it. Are you concerned about the number of organisations involved in the continuing education sector? We have the Training for Women Network, the Educational Guidance Service for Adults, and probably two or three others. The Department of Agriculture has a £2 million rural college that needed additional funding of £800,000. This extra funding has come to the attention of the Public Accounts Committee. Are you concerned about the number of training organisations outside the further education sector?

1132.

Prof Murphy: Mr Beggs and I have found common ground, Mr Chairman.

1133.

The Chairperson: That is good.

1134.

Prof Murphy: I am concerned. The difficulty is - and I am not criticising community groups - that community groups receiving money often want to establish a particular facility with it. There is an element of training involved after the funding has been received. It is difficult both politically and practically to argue against that. One example is Jobskills, administered by the Training and Employment Agency and the Department for Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment. To develop Mr Kelly's point, a private-sector proprietor can take an office somewhere in the centre of a town, install a dozen computers for word-processing or whatever, bring in 12 trainees and make a bit of money. However, in the public sector I am required to provide everything, from civil and mechanical engineering right through to administration. The lucrative returns go to the private sector. That is part of Government policy. Mr Beggs made a valid point in saying that there are too many providers. The answer to his question is an emphatic "Yes". The downside comes in deciding what we do about it. We need to convince those who say that it cannot be done, and we need to ascertain the role of the private sector in training. One example is Shorts. Mr Chambers is involved with Shorts. It provides its own training, but BIFHE also supplies part of the training.

1135.

Mr Chambers: BIFHE's contribution is substantial.

1136.

Prof Murphy: We do a substantial amount of it.

1137.

Mr Chambers: BIFHE and Shorts have an effective further education partnership. Although it is a private sector provider, BIFHE puts a lot of its own development funding into training. I am sure that you know about the Interpoint Centre in Belfast and how it is used. BIFHE has worked closely with Shorts over a number of years to develop an effective partnership. These partnerships look not only at the training strategy and at how it should be developed to bring about effective, competent and knowledge-based training, but they also look at how the company can profit. That is one of our current gaps. We need to look at how we can further develop these partnerships.

1138.

Industry has got off very lightly in developing the education and training system. To date there have been only one or two significant examples of partnerships - the venture with Short Brothers plc being one of them. On Mr Beggs' question, I agree with my director about the proliferation of training providers. Some exist solely to administer and manage training. They provide none themselves, but they make a handsome profit out of it. That is a middleman profit which takes away from the system. That must be addressed urgently.

1139.

Prof Murphy: The private sector can cherry-pick, but we must cover all areas. I will keep Mr Dallat happy by saying that that includes rural areas.

1140.

Mr Dallat: Thank you.

1141.

Mr J Kelly: Colleagues of yours from the north-west argued last week that the HND should be developed to become a degree.

1142.

Prof Murphy: I would argue that point. The HND is a fine qualification which has a particularly good track record. We have a good standard of technical education in Northern Ireland, and people who want to go on to do a degree have the right to do so. There is a danger that we simply repackage everything to make it a bit more attractive. An HND repackaged as a degree will just be more or less the same course with different packaging and a ribbon.

1143.

Mr Chambers: Virtually 100% of those who do an HND, and who do not go on to do a degree, find employment. Employers know that the HND qualification provides worthwhile skills and knowledge.

1144.

Mr Byrne: There has been an inequity in further education funding. A student over the age of 16 at a further education college gets much less than a grammar school student of the same age. How can that be tackled?

1145.

Prof Murphy: The further education system is a reflection of social attitudes in Northern Ireland. The theory is that those who pass the 11-plus are good while those who do not are not so good. According to that theory, people who have failed the 11-plus are meant to work with their hands. They are therefore meant to be not quite as good as those who work with their heads, and so they do not deserve the same level of funding. That, unfortunately, is the perception. We see that in the buildings and in the standard of equipment, and in funding levels generally.

1146.

If one walks from Methodist College to Millfield one will see the difference in the sector. Without wishing to sound glib, Mr Byrne's point is that we need more money. What will come out of the 11-plus review? If the 11-plus is abolished, will we have grammar schools? Of course we will, although they will not be called grammar schools - they will be called something else. What will further education do then?

1147.

Many schools argue in favour of doing more vocational training. That is a perfectly valid argument, and I have no quarrel with it. Mr Dallat's eyes are sparkling. There is a secondary school in every town in Northern Ireland. If secondary schools can be expanded and topped up at a higher level, then they could accommodate some of what would have been the further education sector. That is a possible way forward, although you may think that I am arguing against myself.

1148.

That said, I am also arguing for the expansion of the further education sector to the institute of technology level. An attempt should be made to move everything up a gear. We need consistency in funding across the sector. Another question that we have to ask is what further education is for? Having worked in it for most of my life, I still cannot say for sure. It does what it does because it has always done it. It does quite a lot of good work in many areas.

1149.

In my college I have the right - within reason - to do what I want. That is wrong. It should not be left to me to expand engineering or to close social services, for example. That sort of decision should be made at a more strategic level. We need to look at what further education is about. If it is meant to be providing training for industry, what are the universities doing? Who is asking the universities what they are providing for industry? That is a crucial question. We are bringing in geography, sociology and psychology graduates from universities and retraining them in business studies and catering, because they cannot find work.

1150.

Mr Dallat: Should the further education colleges undertake applied research for business to attract further funding? What is your view on research and development?

1151.

Mr Murphy: We need to carry out research, but not pure academic research - for example, into nuclear physics. If we are meant to provide a service for industry and a trained workforce we need to link more closely with small and medium-sized enterprises. This is something that we have developed in relation to Springvale, where we are involved in incubation units. We need to be able to say that there is someone from Mr Chamber's department with a degree in electronics who can provide training for particular people in that area or who can undertake product development from his training. Product development will be an important part of what we do. The difficulty is that it is only in universities at the moment.

1152.

The pure academic research should remain with the universities, but the more applied research should be coming from our people at post-HND, post-foundation or post degree level. It can then be returned into the economy. We are bringing people from across the community into further education. We are funnelling them in and progressing them. When they come out they have to feed back into the community to close the loop otherwise we will not achieve what we set out to achieve.

1153.

The Chairperson: Thank you, Prof Murphy and colleagues. You have been extremely helpful. Thank you too for your written submission, which we will read closely. We have now over 80 submissions to the inquiry, so we have a lot of material to sift through.

1154.

There is a recognition that many of these issues need to be addressed, and we will take a special note of your question on what the sector is about. It may be that it is the Government's fault that we have unfairly expected further education to work out its own raison d'être without giving enough clear directions under both direct rule and the Assembly.

Thursday 7 December 2000

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly

Witnesses:
Mr A Arbuthnot ) Department of Higher and Further Mr J McKeown ) Education, Training and Employment

1155.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon, gentlemen. It is my pleasure as Chairperson to welcome Adrian Arbuthnot, Director of Divisional Regional Operations, and John McKeown from Employment Guidance and Regional Support.

1156.

As you know, we want to focus on careers advice and guidance as part of our broader inquiry into the impact of the training system. Perhaps you could make an opening statement, after which you can take questions from the members.

1157.

Mr Arbuthnot: Thank you. By way of introduction, I should say that the Careers Service in Northern Ireland is integrated into the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) and operates through our network of job centres. We employ professionally qualified careers officers, of whom there are presently just short of 100. The most important activity they undertake is liaising with schools and interviewing and giving guidance to young people at key stages of their school careers. We have a system whereby we make service level agreements with each school defining the type of service it wishes from the careers officer. The agreement also indicates the level of support that the school itself can provide for the career aspirations of the young people. Our careers officers undertake a survey of school leavers each year, and I believe you were provided before the session with the statistics I have in front of me.

1158.

We also have a careers information unit, which distributes up-to-date, relevant information to schools, job centres, further education colleges and training organisations. We are in the middle of a careers guidance review established on the recommendation of 'Strategy 2010'. That work is currently in hand, and we expect to see some results in about a month. I am not sure that I should say much more at this stage, but I am more than willing to respond to specific questions if that would be helpful.

1159.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much for that introduction. Who would like to ask a question?

1160.

Mr Byrne: I should first like to welcome the two gentlemen here from the Careers Service. As someone who had 21 years of education, some of it secondary and further, I always had the feeling that the service was under-resourced when it came to manpower. One would see a careers adviser once a year at the most, and it would be a fairly formal interface or interaction with a group of students. I always felt there was not enough time for a student or group of students to develop an ongoing relationship with the careers adviser.

1161.

In the case of particular further education colleges, very often one lecturer or teacher was given some time to devote to careers advice. I felt that that too was under-resourced, and very often the student lost out. Do we need more careers advisers and a greater commitment in time to the individual student or trainee who wishes to avail of a more ongoing counselling service to develop his career?

1162.

Mr Arbuthnot: I will invite Mr McKeown to comment in more detail. We are in the process of recruiting additional careers officers. It is fair to say that the Department recognises the need for further resources in this area. The area that you have highlighted is one in which the review of careers guidance is also taking an interest.

1163.

Mr McKeown: In individual programmes in schools and colleges you will find a variety of levels of resources in activity. We encourage careers officers, through the partnership agreements with schools and colleges, to negotiate based on client group priorities, so that if someone needs additional time that is made available to them. That will also depend on the resources in the school or college and the nature of the programme.

1164.

The nature of the programme varies from one school to another and varies in different departments in the further education sector. We are absolutely committed to buying-in additional resources such as careers advisers. Where a client needs more time and continuity of contact with the careers officer, we encourage that to be put in place. There are developments to introduce earlier intervention in Year 8 in England, which is the equivalent of our second form. The careers officers would begin their intervention usually in Year 10 - third form - with subject choice, discussion and advice. Depending on the nature of the programme in the school, the continuity will then continue into fourth, fifth, and into lower and upper sixth, if necessary.

1165.

Mr Byrne: What concerns me is the unstructured approach or relationship between the careers advisers and the careers service in schools or colleges. Mr McKeown referred to the fact that it is different in every school or college. That is where the service is failing the student. I would like to see some thought given to developing a co-ordinated approach so that there is a clear standard criteria applied for all schools and colleges where there is a contract between the careers advisory service and the college or secondary school, so that students do not lose out. Some students will tell you that they have never seen a careers officer or had a counselling session. We are failing them if we allow that to continue.

1166.

Mr McKeown: While there are differences between schools, that does not mean that there is a lack of structure. The structure is based around the service level agreement with every post-primary school. The service level agreement details the nature and content of the careers education programme in that school and what the careers service will, or can, contribute to that programme.

1167.

Mr Byrne: Do you accept the merit of having a co-ordinated structured approach?

1168.

Mr McKeown: Absolutely.

1169.

Mr Dallat: How will the issue of gender preconceptions relating to certain disciplines or occupations be addressed by the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment's careers advice and guidance service? How are you breaking down the cultural difference between the electrician and the physics professor? Finally, how are you dealing with people who have problems with literacy and numeracy?

1170.

Mr Arbuthnot: Careers officers are professionally qualified with a diploma in careers guidance. It is central that the professional training and qualification equips them to provide impartial advice which is free from the gender stereotyping, et cetera, that people might otherwise drift into.

1171.

Mr McKeown: I want to echo that point. During the first university- or college-based year of a careers officer's training and also the probationary period, much time is devoted towards equality issues, equality legislation and the avoidance - in the negative sense - of gender stereotyping, and in the positive sense of actively encouraging young people to think outside the gender stereotyping that they are exposed to from all directions.

1172.

Mr Dallat: I want to go further than that. For example, do you talk to the Fire Service in order to encourage "firewomen" rather than firemen? There have been welcome changes in the electricity service, and there are now some female trainee-engineers. Northern Ireland has a bad reputation for this problem. Is there a two-way process, or do you just talk to the students?

1173.

Mr McKeown: No. Part of a career officer's remit and a key element of their job is to be aware of what is happening in the labour market. They visit employers on a regular basis because that is built into their caseload. Through that, careers officers challenge recruitment practices and seek to advise about gender stereotyping and also why a particular employer would, for example, choose five GCSEs as a requirement. Those are the sort of questions that are asked as we attempt to challenge employers.

1174.

Mr Dallat: You have not answered my question about literacy and numeracy, or the point about the cultural breakdown of sparks and academics.

1175.

Mr McKeown: I will address the literacy and numeracy issue, and any matter regarding social exclusion. The whole drive of UK careers services is to target those who are socially excluded or disadvantaged in any way, as a priority. Literacy and numeracy are obviously two major disadvantages. The thrust of our own review will include serious consideration of the social-inclusion agenda and, following the review's recommendations, those clients with literacy and numeracy difficulties will be targeted as a priority group for careers advice.

1176.

Mr Dallat: Last week I represented the Committee at Cookstown and saw some of the practical work that is being done. I want to take this opportunity to encourage you to do more of the same and congratulate you on the work being done.

1177.

Mr Beggs: I want to go back to the topic of service level agreements. You said that there were different service level agreements with different schools. From the evidence that the Committee has heard, there is a concern that pupils can occasionally be tunnel visioned and pointed solely towards the academic route. Do you agree that if there is not an appropriate service level agreement that that is a danger, because in the world of academia success is often measured in terms of A levels and university places, rather than by training and directing people into appropriate and successful careers - no matter what they chose?

1178.

My second question is in regard to the interaction between the job market and the careers service. There are stories about plumbers being offered £14 per hour. Electricians and other tradesmen are unavailable, and in those areas with skills shortages they can almost name their price on occasion. How has the careers service highlighted these issues to schools, and how has it encouraged people to move into those areas? Why has it failed? Why do these gaps exist? What is wrong with the current system?

1179.

Finally, what national or international comparisons have you made, and what lessons have been learnt from elsewhere? For instance, the Committee has heard about the Welsh experience where the careers service is completely independent and has independent responsibility for careers guidance.

1180.

Mr Arbuthnot: Your first question related to academic qualifications, perhaps a person's vocational aspirations. You are right. There is a tendency in some schools to set as the gold standard the A-level/university route. It is important that all young people - whether they are the academically gifted who will go on to attain university qualifications, or the less academically gifted whose future may lie in vocational training - have equal access to advice with regard to subject choice and, ultimately, to career aspiration. The intention is that the service level agreement with each school, given its culture and ethos, will be different and that the careers officer will agree a series of actions through the school principal.

1181.

Mr Beggs: Why should it be different? Why should the same level of professional advice not be given to every school?

1182.

Mr Arbuthnot: I would argue that the same level of advice is given to every school, but each individual pupil is different, and each will have differing needs. There will be differing resources available in schools. The service level agreement is intended to ensure that the input to every school is equalised as far as possible, and that no school or its pupils should suffer because of any differences. Whether it is on the issue of subject choice and academic study, or on the choice of vocational training route and employment opportunities in the job market, it is important for that advice and those services to be available.

1183.

Young people are given advice on vocational training opportunities. You mentioned as an example plumbers and electricians. Opportunities such as modern apprenticeship are made available as an alternative to A-level study. That is part and parcel of the advice given by the careers officer.

1184.

Mr McKeown: The achievement of academic qualifications is a worthy goal. It is not a target of the careers service, whose simple target is to help young people to make better and more informed choices. We are not in the game of pushing people towards anything.

1185.

Mr Beggs: I am not accusing you, but there is a danger of an inappropriate service level agreement. For instance, 20 years ago as careers guidance I might have had half an hour from an outside consultant when I was deciding what to do with myself. It was not necessarily good or bad advice. Perhaps there is a need for a more even level of service to be provided for all schools.

1186.

Mr McKeown: We intend that the service is even, but the structures and differences are dependent on each school and its principal. For example, a school may have a blanket interview policy. Everyone is interviewed, whether they need it or not. Another school may have a policy of highly selective interviewing, of targeting priority groups. They may only be able to facilitate small group work or class talks. We have to negotiate a programme with each school, but we hope that our input to whatever structure is of high quality and consistent.

1187.

Mr Beggs: How would you feel about being totally independently responsible for careers guidance? Perhaps you could tell us more about the Welsh set-up.

1188.

Mr McKeown: You mentioned the skills shortages and encouraging people in those areas, but we have to walk a tightrope in that regard. The Department wants to help people make good decisions, so the guidance must be impartial. We do not want to limit people's aspirations, but we must bring in an edge of reality and link the guidance to opportunity. The Department will make young people aware of where the skills shortages are, but it wants them to make their own choices - just as you did many years ago.

1189.

Careers officers constantly tell us about situations where young people have been pushed towards a skills shortage area. Computers are the famous one at the moment. Young people opt for computer courses only because that is where the jobs are now. However, their reasons have to be greater than that, and that is what guidance is about. Employment guidance and regional support will inform the young people that there is a skills shortage and opportunities in that area, but we will also assess them more fully, and it is hoped that that will help them make a stronger and more sustainable decision.

1190.

With regard to international comparisons and the impartiality argument, we are accused from both sides. Educationalists accuse us of encouraging young people to leave school, and training organisations accuse us of encouraging young people to stay on at school. Knowing that we are impartial helps me sleep easy at night. We cannot keep both sides happy. However, we are studying the national developments. The Connexions service in England, the Welsh model and the Beattie Report in Scotland will inform and assist Northern Ireland's review of careers guidance. We hope to take the best practice and recommendations from England, Wales and Scotland to inform the Northern Ireland review.

1191.

Mr Beggs: When will that review occur?

1192.

Mr McKeown: It is now under way, and it is hoped that the initial report will be ready early in the new year - probably January.

1193.

Mr J Kelly: Considering your relationship with the labour market, you must feel that there is a relationship between the labour market, schools and the curriculum. Do you have any input into the curriculum?

1194.

Mr McKeown: Yes, there are two elements. We, along with the Department of Education, fund the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership (NIBEP) which increasingly has more impact on the curriculum. It brings the worlds of work and education together through industry days, industry awareness and mock interview programmes, et cetera. That is one element, and we are also consulted on the new curriculum development, particularly in relation to employability which is one of the major themes of Curriculum 2000.

1195.

Therefore we do have an input, the thrust of which is to establish a stronger commitment to timetabled careers classes, stronger service level agreements, a stronger sense of partnership and stronger links with the world of work. From the outside, we help to advise employers and to strengthen the relationships between employers, training organisations, schools and colleges.

1196.

Mr J Kelly: So there is a two-way feedback?

1197.

Mr McKeown: Yes.

1198.

Mr Beggs: Why are there so many vacancies for plumbers and electricians? Those are good opportunities for well-paid employment, and there is a possibility of becoming your own boss in those areas. So, why is there that failure? What areas have you identified, and what changes are you suggesting to try and address that failure?

1199.

Mr Arbuthnot: It is the responsibility of the careers officer to present opportunities to young people so that they are able to make a choice about career options. However, it is improper for careers officers to direct young people into particular job areas. Careers officers should work, particularly with employers, to ensure that the job opportunities within particular industries are well publicised so that young people may be attracted to those occupations and can make a reasonable and balanced choice. It is not only the responsibility of careers officers. We have a large part to play as do employers and industrial sectors, which are in a position to promote the employment opportunities in their sectors.

1200.

Mr Beggs: There is a perception that a job that is at a technical level - such as one where you may get your hands dirty - is not given the recognition of importance that it deserves in society. Also individuals who do choose to enter these areas do not have a clear understanding of the opportunities available. How could we improve that perception?

1201.

Mr Arbuthnot: That has been true in the past, and it may remain true today. However, the introduction of modern apprenticeships has been a step in the right direction, whereby vocational areas have modernised the way in which they present themselves, which includes information regarding how people can get qualified to work in particular professions. The aim is to revamp the image of some of the more traditional industries.

1202.

Mr Beggs: Are the current places in modern apprenticeships fully taken up, and are there any plans to increase the number of such apprenticeships within the next budget?

1203.

Mr Arbuthnot: It is an integral part of our agenda to look at all the important skills areas of the economy and to encourage people of all ages to focus in on those areas.

1204.

Mr Byrne: I have attended a number of careers exhibitions in the past, and they were very worthwhile - although I am not aware of many in recent times. Do you still carry on careers conventions? How many of them would there be in Northern Ireland, and how are they spread geographically?

1205.

Mr McKeown: They are still in operation. In recent years, these exhibitions have become larger in scale. The Methodist College convention, which is a Northern Ireland-wide convention, receives funding and support from ourselves because it brings employers, universities and colleges to the attention of young people from around Northern Ireland. We also support transport arrangements to that conference.

1206.

There are individual schools careers conventions at a rate of up to three or four per month throughout the academic year in Northern Ireland. Our Careers Occupational Information Unit issues a monthly bulletin that lists those conventions by date and location. If a manufacturing company was to say that it could not get five engineers or technicians, despite contacting schools or putting advertisements in the paper, our approach is usually to link that employer with a careers convention or industry day. In doing so, the company heightens its profile and has the opportunity to sell itself to young people. At the very least, it can make the information available regarding what is involved in both the industry and in those specific jobs. We are trying to match the two up to provide that solution.

1207.

Mr Dallat: How do you see the career guidance service developing as a continuous support to promote lifelong learning and those aspects of development that are now taking on the importance that perhaps they did not have in the past?

1208.

Mr Arbuthnot: Are you referring to the all-age guidance aspect of that? I will ask Mr McKeown to come in with some more detail, but the careers officers based in our job centres do give advice to adults who call in there. The careers service is available to all ages, even though it focuses mainly on schools and young people, but there certainly is a capacity to give advice to people of any age.

1209.

Mr McKeown: The bulk of the careers officer's work is done in schools, but that relationship then continues based on the young person's choices on leaving school, whether it is a further education college or employment - because we do some follow-up with young people who have secured employment.

1210.

Our priority group is those young people who leave school into unemployment and also those who transfer to colleges. So we maintain a proactive contact up until young people are aged 19, or 22 for disabled people. Following that, the contact comes from the other side, and it is a self-referral system for young and older adults to approach the service if they need guidance. If they do refer themselves, then we provide a counselling interview and any other support that is needed.

1211.

I am in post about a year and a half, and one of the things that we have developed is a very strong working relationship with the Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA). We are working out that relationship and trying to ensure that no one falls between the gaps of educational guidance and general careers guidance. We now have a good system of cross-referral and, in fact, we are working closely together on a number of projects around quality standards and guidance, so there is a good partnership built in there that will help us in our approach to lifelong learning and guidance.

1212.

Mr Dallat: I was going to specifically mention EGSA for that is the type of service that needs to be available across the North, and particularly to those people that they identify. If the new dimension that we now are in politically is to mean anything, then everyone must benefit. There are so many people who have been left outside the loop, or indeed people continually dropping out of it, that the EGSA principal needs to be enshrined right across the service.

1213.

Mr McKeown: Yes, very much so. I have regular meetings with the director of EGSA, Eileen Kelly, and our goal is to work in partnership with EGSA to support its information and guidance network.

1214.

Mr Dallat: I have two questions. The Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) has set up in recent years a skills unit to look at gaps or differences between labour demand and supply, which Mr Beggs and some other members have mentioned.

1215.

How are the results coming from it fed through to people like yourselves who are working on the sharp end of careers guidance? Obviously research is published - there is a document with a yellow and blue cover, a labour market skills bulletin that was published about a week and a half ago, which is very good. However, it is not a document that every 16 or 18-year-old is running around looking at on the school bus, or wherever they happen to be. So, how are we getting the information across?

1216.

Secondly, did I pick you up right that the review of the careers guidance service is producing a report in January of next year?

1217.

Mr Arbuthnot: In answer to the second question, yes you did.

1218.

With regard to the first one, I would call it one of the strengths of our system that our careers service and our careers officers are an integral part of the T&EA and therefore the wider Department. The work in the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment- the work of the skills unit and other relevant work - is channelled down through the Department, through myself as the relevant director, so that it can inform the careers service, and careers officers can be briefed as to what current and future trends might be with regard to skills gaps, and so on. Our economists and statisticians - people like Terry Morahan - also give talks and hold seminars with staff, and they go around Northern Ireland disseminating the results of their work. There are well-established channels of communication.

1219.

Mr Byrne: Reference has been made to the review that is currently being carried out within the service. How widespread is the consultation in relation to that, and who is in charge of the drivers for change that may emanate from it?

1220.

Mr Arbuthnot: The review group is operating under the chairmanship of Prof Sean Fulton of Queen's University, and the membership of the group includes several representatives of employers and local industry and a variety of educational interests. The review group has undertaken a number of focus groups with key people, employers, schools and young people themselves, around different parts of Northern Ireland. So they have consulted in a fairly widespread way.

1221.

Mr Beggs: I was not aware of that going on. Careers guidance is an issue that has come in front of the Committee from a number of our witnesses. It is important that we have an input and have time to reflect on the evidence presented and be consulted by the Department in such a process. That is something that the Committee will have to discuss. Is your deadline definitive? You said that it is going to be finished by January. Perhaps that is something that the Clerk and the Chairperson could discuss with the Department.

1222.

Mr Arbuthnot: The January date has been set as the date for the review group to provide, at the very least, an interim report to the two Departments. I am quite sure that the work will be ongoing beyond January.

1223.

The Chairperson: We would find that reassuring. The Committee will have to decide whether it wishes to call, for example, Prof Fulton to a session.

1224.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr Arbuthnot and Mr McKeown. We wish you well in your very important work.

Thursday 18 January 2001

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:
Sir Kenneth Bloomfield )
Mr J Coote ) Northern Ireland Higher
Mr R Holmes ) Education Council
Mr N Morrison )

1225.

The Chairperson: I welcome the delegation from the Northern Ireland Higher Education Council (NIHEC). NIHEC's activities have benefited Committee business. Its recent report on student finance and its inquiry into the Northern Ireland training system, which the Committee is currently working on, are two such examples. We would like to take evidence on the latter this afternoon.

1226.

Thank you for the documents explaining the activities and background of NIHEC and your business submission to the inquiry.

1227.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: The council welcomes the present dispositions for government here. There is now an institutional focus for tertiary education in a way that there was not before. That is not to say that the Department of Education neglected the tertiary sector, rather that it had to balance different interests in primary education, secondary education and the sport and recreation sector. Therefore, NIHEC regards as a positive step the establishment of a Department and Committee that is particularly concerned with those matters.

1228.

One of our papers sets out the background to NIHEC's appointment and work. For a long time there was a unitary United Kingdom higher education system, and the university grants committee advised on the distribution of moneys in Northern Ireland

1229.

Of course, that was dealing with a university system in which you had the old, established universities, the civic universities, the more recent universities of the 1960s and then the polytechnics, which were also offering degree courses. When the Government of the time abolished the binary line - which immediately and enormously increased the number of universities - it seemed sensible to disaggregate the decision-making and advice-giving responsibilities. In a way, that has been very convenient because higher and further education are among the matters that have been devolved to the three jurisdictions. Therefore, it is appropriate that, in each of the jurisdictions, there is a body specifically concerned with advising Government about higher education in its own area.

1230.

It is important to realise that education in Northern Ireland is an important entity in itself, as well as a constituent part of a wider British and, indeed, Irish university system. There is a wider context for all of this, which we try to keep together through periodic meetings between the several chairs and chief executives of the four bodies within the United Kingdom now dealing with these matters. We meet every few months and take account of developments that have a national importance. It is significant for us because I am sure we will touch on the overspill of the locally-generated demand for education into the supply of education in other jurisdictions in the United Kingdom. There are, therefore, profoundly important interactions.

1231.

The other thing we have been conscious of from the beginning is that it is important to keep in close touch both with the universities themselves - and it is a lot easier to do that if you are dealing with two bodies rather than with 100 - and with the customers of education, whether they are Northern Ireland students looking for higher education qualifications or industries looking for the sort of support that a university can give. Therefore, we have been at some pains - and no doubt you are going to pursue this further - to try to improve the lines of communication between the university system and those interests in society that draw upon it.

1232.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. We move on to some questions. Who would like to go first?

1233.

Mr J Kelly: What are your views on the current state of higher education and business partnerships, particularly with regard to small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs)?

1234.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: All of us, including universities, have to be conscious of the SME element in the local economy. The fact that so much of our activity is at the SME level has itself some impact on the university system. When universities are looking for research funding they want to look not only to Government but to other funders, including, in many cases in Great Britain, industrial funders. We have fewer heavyweight players than they do on the British mainland. This means that SMEs are often looking for technological support and advice from the university system in Northern Ireland, rather than pure research.

1235.

There are many ways of improving and building on the links between SMEs and universities. It is a bit of a shibboleth of mine, but I believe there is a big role in this for university government. Each university has a supreme body - in the case of Queens, for instance, it is the senate, on which I briefly served - which typically brings together many of the heavy hitters in this society, including people in commerce and industry. My impression, from sitting on the senate for a relatively brief period, was that it was rather a responsive body, responding to matters coming up the academic chain and sometimes rubber-stamping them.

1236.

University government has quite a job to do in ensuring that each university responds to the needs of society. Norman Morrison will now talk on matters such as the Teaching Companies programme. After a career in the schools inspectorate, Mr Morrison ran the Industrial Research and Technology Unit (IRTU) in the Department of Economic Development. He brings his considerable knowledge of the links with industry to the Northern Ireland Higher Education Council.

1237.

Mr Morrison: There are two areas in which our universities are well to the fore in helping small companies. One is the Teaching Company programme, which has grown substantially faster in Northern Ireland than elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Both universities participate to a large degree. It is a scheme that enables a bright young graduate to be placed with a company to tackle a problem specified by the company. Through a funding mechanism, the university backs that young graduate with the technical support and expertise that he may need to forward product development. Teaching Company schemes fall more into the area of research and development than that of business development and company development.

1238.

Recently, our universities have been very active in setting up the Manufacturing Technology Partnership. That is an American innovation that we have adopted in Northern Ireland following Mr Clinton's first involvement here. The main focus of the Manufacturing Technology Partnership was to encourage all firms, particularly SMEs, to use appropriate technology when developing products. This is necessary because small firms are not usually in the business of research and development, but they are in the business of ensuring that they use the right kind of technology. In recent years both universities have been very active in this partnership. That is to be encouraged. It has been a big step for them. Universities are aware of the importance of this development. We are now beginning to see some impact being made and new small companies using appropriate technology. Queen's University has a unit in manufacturing processes that helps industry. It has had this unit for many years, but it has been refocused and enhanced by the development of the Manufacturing Technology Partnership. Both universities are responding well in this area.

1239.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: For a long time, two main streams of Government funding went into the university system. There was a stream for the support of teaching and a stream for the support of research. Led by the chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE), a third stream of funding was then developed, which is the Higher Education Outreach to Business and the Community (HEROBC). That is designed to support the university in strengthening its links with society in ways that cannot be described either as teaching or research.

1240.

The Northern Ireland Higher Education Council has examined and made recommendations on bids from our local universities under the HEROBC programme. For example, we have a proposal to build on Queen's University's existing contribution to the development of local society in enhancing its links with business in the community. Over the next four years it will develop a regional office aligned to local economic development needs and dedicated to ensuring the effective interaction of the university with all aspects of business in the wider community. There are plans to strengthen opportunities for the further development of technology transfer and the commercial exploitation of the university's intellectual property for the economic benefit and prosperity of the region.

1241.

There will also be a co-ordination unit for the enhancement of the university's programmes of continuing professional development for the technical, professional and business communities, as well as a centre for co-ordination of work experience for students and staff to meet the requirements of employers, professions and society in general. We have had matching proposals from the University of Ulster. That would be the third stream, but in money terms I would never see it being as significant as the two main streams. However, I would see the third stream of funding as a really important way of building upon and strengthening those links, particularly with commerce and industry.

1242.

Mr J Kelly: Thank you for a very comprehensive answer.

1243.

Mr Byrne: A much higher percentage of 18-year-olds go on to higher education in Northern Ireland. However, there is a great mismatch in the demand for, and supply of, higher education places. How do you envisage overcoming that problem? Students who have to leave Northern Ireland are disadvantaged because they cannot get a place here due to the much higher entry qualifications. Do you envisage expansion of the two existing universities, or do you want to see some sort of decentralisation and further networking with further education colleges?

1244.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: Thank you for that question. You are on to an area to which we have committed a great deal of time and thought. One of our earliest pieces of work was a report to Government on what we call access, participation and student migration. It is true that in Northern Ireland we generate a relatively high demand for higher education. In many ways demand is remarkably high, given the socio-economic profile of the community. In 1998/1999 - the latest figures that I possess - the age participation index for the conventional undergraduate age group showed that demand was 41·2% for Northern Ireland, as against a Great Britain average of 32%. At the moment not all of that demand is, or can be, satisfied in Northern Ireland.

1245.

We gave extensive evidence on the subject to the national Dearing review of higher education. That was based on the work that we had undertaken as a council previously, which had persuaded us that while there was a considerable number of voluntary leavers going to universities outside Northern Ireland - we had nothing against that and did not feel we ought to be stopping it - quite a large number were involuntary leavers. Those are people who would rather have attended a local university, whether for economic reasons, family reasons or another reason. They were being priced out of the system by the very high tariff.

1246.

There is no doubt at all that, if you look at the list of A-level grades required to get into particular universities throughout the United Kingdom, you will find both the universities in Northern Ireland relatively high up - well above the mean. Queen's University is rather higher, but both are relatively high up. That means that quite a lot of people with sufficent A-level points to gain admission to universities elsewhere to successfully take a degree have had to go outside Northern Ireland without wishing to do so.

1247.

That is a changing pattern because it appears that alterations to the system of student support increase the likelihood of people seeking a university education closer to home. Happily, we strongly persuaded Dearing to recommend something be done about this. There are all sorts of bases on which you could argue how many extra places were needed, but the Dearing view was that we were at least 5,000 places short of what was required at that stage. Since those days, we have seen quite substantial progress in terms of the number of people staying at home.

1248.

We should not be as fixated with the question of how many people go to university across the water as with the question of how many, having gone across the water, do not come back again. I have little doubt that, given an economically attractive Northern Ireland, a huge number of the young people who go outside Northern Ireland would love to come back, if they could get a job and a salary that matched their expectations.

1249.

In my own mind, the ideal pattern would be one where Northern Ireland's universities cater for students from a wide range of places and where some of our people go away. However, this jurisdiction has the biggest mismatch in numbers between the demand for higher education and the local ability to satisfy it. That is being rectified progressively, and we are happy about that because we think it is an important matter.

1250.

Mr Byrne: The expansion of higher education taking place in Scotland has happened primarily through the use of further education colleges as out-centres for the main universities. There seems to have been a substantial growth in that area. Should we be concentrating on expanding the existing universities or should we take a similar line to that taken in Scotland?

1251.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: A shorthand way of looking at that would be to say that Northern Ireland is short of one university. However, that is not an argument for creating another one. You rightly point out that we are talking about three universities, although we are concerned primarily with Queen's University and the University of Ulster. The Open University is a remarkably successful organisation here and in other places. It caters for a different type of student, and we should remember that the Dearing context was really one of encouraging lifelong learning.

1252.

As we look to the future, arguably both types of organisation have got to provide more places for the conventional 18-year old cohort. However, they also have to have more room to take on board mature - and often part-time - students who are refreshing their qualifications. As Dearing said, there are various ways of making up that type of gap. The argument exists for creating wholly new institutions - or we could add to Queen's University and the University of Ulster. However, there is the question of higher education being pushed further out into the further education system. That is capable of being a significant part of the answer.

1253.

A few years ago, I went to an awards presentation at the North Down Institute in Bangor at which 18 people were getting full university degrees. Those degrees were from the University of Sheffield and had been essentially franchised out to that college. However, people in the college taught the course, and everything had to pass the University of Sheffield's standards. The University of Ulster, in particular, has put a major emphasis on this type of outreach. The more you want to extend higher education to people suffering some economic disadvantage, the more you will want to push it out to mature people. Therefore, you must look at various means of outreach. Further and more extensive use of the further education colleges is one such means of outreach.

1254.

Queen's University has adopted a different approach, and you will know about its presence in Armagh. I would see the issue taking place on two fronts. The first would be termed further outreach; through the further education colleges or in other ways. The second would be by adding to capacity in the two existing universities.

1255.

The Chairperson: You mentioned the Open University. We hope to have representatives from that organisation here next week.

1256.

Mr R Hutchinson: Are the higher education establishments producing enough of the transferable skills?

1257.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: The academic hierarchies in the universities are better embedded into economic development and planning than they used to be. One of the wholesome things about Northern Ireland in recent years has been that economic interests have not always been prepared to wait for Government to produce a plan. They developed plans of their own, and I welcome that.

1258.

I served for quite a long time in the Department of Economic Development, and it is good to see industrial and economic players trying to take part of their destiny into their own hands. People such as Gerry McKenna at the University of Ulster have been fairly deeply involved in that.

1259.

It is unrealistic, when you only have two institutions, to expect them to produce all the skills Northern Ireland may require. There will always be some disciplines for which Northern Ireland students will have to look elsewhere. There is not necessarily anything wrong with that. One must remember that a small discipline can easily be a little uneconomic. A massive operation is the best basis on which to mount credible research.

1260.

Mr Beggs: What is the view of the council on the foundation degree proposal? To lend the answer a degree of credibility, can you perhaps give some further basic information about exactly who you are and the composition and background of your members? I am trying to see what your decision-making processes are and how you interact between the universities and the Department. Are you independent? How do you operate?

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