COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

Report 01/01R

951.

Mr Gallagher: To answer your first question, some of our staff studied very hard and satisfied the technical requirements to acquire the Microsoft accreditation - at least two of our staff, maybe three at this stage. I do no know if other colleges have been accredited since. I have not heard of any. I have to be careful in my reply as to why other colleges have not been accredited. I hope you asked ANIC that question when they were here.

952.

Part of the lack of cohesion was that BIFHE did not join ANIC - I think everybody knows that. However, the Department's reaction to its not joining did not help. BIFHE was represented on every committee. We were the biggest subscribers to ANIC and we had a 25% chance of getting on to committees. It did not make sense, but we have not closed the door.

953.

There are a large number of small colleges. Do you remember the Stewart Report of several years ago, which suggested amalgamations? Those amalgamations were fought tenaciously in the ditches and highways and byways. I do not blame any principal for doing that, but the consequence is that we have more colleges than the Republic has institutes of technology. The institutes in the South have a larger student population and are geared towards being centres of excellence. Smaller colleges frequently give a worm's eye view of the sector. That was clear in the Strategy 2010 image. The image of our college and the type of work we were doing did not influence the perception of further education in the Strategy 2010 document. We were not asked to contribute, but we have corrected that in our submissions since. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The number of full-time equivalent students in our institute has increased by 75%. That increase occurred even though we have 6·2 sq m of space per student, which is substantially lower than the norm.

954.

David Elliott, Education and Business Manager of British Telecom, was here with another BT representative. BT will be sponsoring NORIBIC, the business and innovation centre, that is closely linked to the Institute. Our track record in supplying many quality telecommunications personnel led him to support the sponsorship. Mr Alfie Kane, who was head of BT Northern Ireland and who did a splendid job with shares in the telecommunications industry in the Republic, is also a former student of ours. Well taught. Professor Dan Bradley, who pioneered fibre optic technology in Ireland, was also a former student of ours. He became a Fellow of the Royal Irish Academy. Our track record precedes us. If business and industry are satisfied, you do not have to worry about badging. That is why we are in business, running the conversion courses.

955.

That may sound arrogant but people vote with their feet. This sector needs more rationalisation. Everybody cannot do everything. We need centres of excellence. I was principal of the smallest institute of technology in the Republic, and I quickly realised that everything you can do in Dublin cannot be done in Letterkenny. We have to be realistic, and I know your Committee will appreciate those concerns. You will be the butt of parochial lobbies, which will demand changes everywhere. I pity you and sympathise with you.

956.

Mr Murphy: I would like to mention that the future of further education is in the lifelong learning agenda. This is more about taking education to people than taking people to education. Over the past few years our community-based education programme has expanded. I ask you to note the significant difference between community-based education and community education. Community-based education is the mechanism whereby the work force is up-skilled.

957.

We offer a range of IT programmes in the Women's Centre in Derry, and we will also offer HNC courses in the centre for those who have progressed from beginners' IT through CLAIT, ECDL and Level 3. At their own pace they are ready to move on to an HNC. That is the cost-effective way of delivering a skills base. It is not about saying we are short of software engineers, so we should remove the cap on the number of places.

958.

As Mr Gallagher said earlier, anyone who wants to do software engineering or micro-electronics has no difficulty in finding a place in the Province. For us the opposite is true - we cannot find students with an adequate base in maths and physics. The only way to widen the student pool is to invite more non-traditional participants into the sector in locations comfortable to them. That is one of the challenges for the next decade.

959.

The Chairperson: I would like to mention the important subject of foundation degrees. It could be argued that employers do not sufficiently value the HND qualification at sub-degree level. Conversely, there is evidence to suggest a labour supply shortage at HND level, particularly for the IT sector. A recent concern, now that the Department is piloting the foundation degrees, is that we may simply be changing the name of the product from HND to foundation degree. Why not try to make the existing product work rather than create a new concept? Can you explain the rationale, given what you have said about the American model of associated degrees?

960.

Mr Gallagher: Part of our problem is the name. The document I gave you about higher education carries a sketch of a comparison with the Republic of Ireland. If anybody wants me to clarify that, I will come back to it - perhaps not today.

961.

What the Republic of Ireland calls "degrees" do not have higher standards than our HNDs. Two things have happened to the reputation of our HNDs. First, the University of Ulster, through its charter, retained a requirement to continue HND work, which, under the Dearing Committee recommendations and its own schemes, the university is likely to resile from shortly.

962.

Because of supply and demand and the linkages they have with some associate colleges, the two universities in Northern Ireland were competing for turf throughout Northern Ireland in places such as Omagh and Newry, where there had not been a university presence. Part of the payback for this was that a very hefty fee had to be paid for validation of HNDs. When the colleges paid their fees, the universities gave greater recognition to those HNDs than the HNDs in independent places in Belfast or elsewhere. That tended to downgrade the year-on-year exemptions. We were strong enough to see that one off. The nicest compliment came from Professor McKenna, who told me I had done more to develop Magee than anyone else, because Magee had to run to keep up with what we were doing.

963.

Seven years ago I toured every university in Scotland. I had great difficulty persuading them what an HND was. If you have difficulty telling your cousins in Scotland what an HND is, what will it be like in the United States?

964.

The Chairperson: The German system has the Fachhochschule, which does not produce a degree, yet this is perceived to work very well.

965.

Mr Murphy: But there are cultural differences.

966.

Mr Gallagher: When Mr J Spence was chairman of the T&EA - I was on the board of the agency at the time - he had a high-powered and detailed look at the German system. If you sucked out the very substantial industrial subsidy of time, effort and placements, this system would not be what it is. Perhaps we can aspire to that.

967.

However, I believe the name is important. The Republic parades its degrees to inward investors. But when we talk to these investors about HNDs, it takes a while to explain the difference. The Republic is ahead of us, even though its standards are no higher.

968.

Mr Murphy: There is also another issue, as the real drive for associate degrees or foundation degrees is as much political as it is academic, since the Prime Minister promised that 50% of the population's qualifications would be of degree status. There is an element of politics as well as an element of curriculum building.

969.

Mr J Kelly: Are you saying we should not make HND a degree course?

970.

Mr Gallagher: There are two different things. There is a danger if colleges forget that their real intent is to provide technician support for industry. However, industry is becoming more varied in its application, particularly with the sunrise industries such as ICT and telecommunications. It is difficult to set a threshold qualification that is going to satisfy them all. In terms of student mobility, it is crucial that they have a variety of outlets if they are moving off an HND perhaps entering higher education, as they are currently doing. It is important to have as much articulation as possible between the associated degree and the target university. That is the case in America and that is why I would like to link our system to America. The American system is working very well.

971.

Mr J Kelly: It goes against the common perception of what an HND should be.

972.

Mr Dallat: Mr Gallagher said he was impish when he came in. I encourage him to be impish again and tell us why research and development is so important, and what can be done to end your students being the poor relations?

973.

Mr Gallagher: First, I want to enter the epithet applied before. We have no ambition to be involved in academic research per se. There is an important place for that, and I do not denigrate it, but we are talking about a direct hands-on approach. We have been involved in SMEs for 15 years and the sort of help that an SME needs quickly is frequency in product development. An SME may need somebody to turn a lathe, or may need a business plan, or a rudimentary marketing plan to make sure that whatever widget is being contemplated has not been made before and is not being sold somewhere else. Perhaps research is the wrong name for it, but it is a way of helping business to develop products, to develop business strategies, and to develop marketing strategies.

974.

The issue of further education colleges being the poor relation is not solely an attitude of mind, and the Chairman is wise to draw attention to Germany. Strangely, this is an international phenomenon. Colleges such as ours are the poor relations internationally. There seems to have been an attitude of mind in Government, which, after all, was broadly peopled by those with university degrees, that recreation space was needed for university students and that the poor people in further education colleges did not need any recreation space at all. I do not mean to be harsh, but an artisan can get a job that pays a lot more than a university don. However, he does not have the assigned status of a don and he has to earn his nice house in, dare I say, east Ulster.

975.

There is "earned status" and "assigned status". Currently, people can have either. We need to assign status to people who have been educated at further education colleges. We gloss over a lot in the further education colleges. However, much that takes place in some colleges needs to be improved. It needs to be taken by the scruff of the neck and shaken, and I am conscious of that. I do not want to gild the lily.

976.

The Chairperson: Thank you. The session has been extremely informative and interesting. Obviously, you are passionately committed to your work, and that comes across. We will read the written submissions, which are substantial. We commend you for them and will bring them to bear as we consider some of the issues we have talked about today such as foundation degrees, the relationship between further education and higher education, and so on. You have certainly opened up a number of new avenues for us. Thank you very much for coming. We wish you well and safe journey home.

977.

Mr Gallagher: Thank you very much. It has been a very cordial atmosphere, and very easy to engage in dialogue. The Committee Clerk was quite right to suggest an across-the-table meeting. I am sorry I did not show you our coloured slides, but I hope you will pass on your lovely comments about our passion and commitment to the Minister. We are the first and only college to have won a Eurotechnet award for the design of an electronics programme that has now been copied by every member state in Europe. So we lead the way in many things.

978.

The Chairperson: Well done.

Thursday 30 November 2000

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Dallat
Mr J Kelly

979.

The Chairperson: I welcome Dr Lennon and his colleague, Mr Saunderson, to the Committee session. I have heard Dr Lennon speak about economic development before so I know that he has many interesting things to say.

980.

Dr Lennon: Thank you for the introduction and the invitation.

981.

My colleague, Rodney Saunderson, has helped me put together the presentation. He knows more about education and training for industry than I do because he is a graduate of the system. Therefore you may wish to direct some of your questions to him, as he has practical experience.

982.

I am not representing the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) today, I am representing small business interests. The CCEA will increasingly become involved in vocational education.

983.

You are probably punch-drunk by now so I am not going to spend too long on my presentation. I have given you a paper and I will pick out the key things and leave a bit of time for discussion.

984.

We would all agree with the research findings that say that the better educated a person is, the more relevant his education will be to the amount he earns. An important issue is how that impacts on self-esteem. We all believe that people feel better if they are employed. The jury is out as to whether that affects the GDP, whether more education means better economic performance. There is no real research. However, I am prepared to work with the idea that the more relevant and better education we have, the more likely we are to perform well economically.

985.

However, we do need reforms, particularly in the area of vocational education. We also need reforms in the so-called academic stream. Educators use the word "rigour". I would tend to focus on the word "relevance". You will see in my presentation I use the American spelling of the word rigour. However when I consulted the dictionary - and maybe this is a Freudian slip - I found that "rigor" means "a state of rigidity as a reaction to shock". There is no question that education is predominantly taken up with the question of rigour, and quite often gets the relevance wrong. Further education should be in a great position to lead the way in change. That is some of the economic background.

986.

I am grateful to PricewaterhouseCoopers for the following slides, which show some statistics that I am sure you will be familiar with. Despite our problems, we have created 89,000 new jobs over the past 10 years. We can be proud of our 29-year low in terms of unemployment. Employment has increased by 13%, which is 10 times the UK rate. Ours is the fastest growing region in the UK. Only 1% of 16-year-olds here have no qualifications. If I were to count those with relevant qualifications, that figure would be much higher. There is some good news and it is always important to remember that.

987.

As for changes in the world of Information and Computer Technology (ICT), of the 7,150 new IDB-supported jobs last year, 80% were in "knowledge industries". Ninety-two per cent of inward investment is in areas that PricewaterhouseCoopers would refer to as "high tech". Forty per cent is in software network services. We are shifting slowly and to a limited extent but we will continue to move from low-value-added manufacturing to knowledge employment. The implications are that we will need new skills for the new industries.

988.

I will tell you a little about Munster Simms. We are a high-tech company with a turnover of £10 million, selling branded products and trading internationally. Much of our sales revenue is spent on research and development, and our spend levels are typical of a pharmaceutical company. We export most of our products; 95% goes outside Ireland. We market, we design, and we make plastic pumps for niche markets. We employ 120 people, 30 of whom are in management or professional roles. We have ISO 9001, Investors in People, Business Excellence and so on. As a pump company, Munster Simms looks like a traditional manufacturer. In fact, it is not. We are a brand company and we are using technology to a high degree. Many companies in Northern Ireland are not apparently part of the technology revolution but they are certainly working in a technological environment.

989.

In the market place, there is local competition. However, our main competitors are American. We use e-business and technology. Munster Simms, as a company, and Northern Ireland, as a region, will depend more on service and knowledge than on physical products. Even though our company sells physical products, they are encapsulated within the support systems.

990.

Things are speeding up. We need 137,000 new jobs over the next 10 years just to stay still; these statistics are taken from Strategy 2010. We also need higher attainment levels and we need to engage in the lifelong learning agenda. All this will be very familiar to you. We do need forward-looking courses for literacy, including IT literacy, numeracy and communication skills. We need people who can think and solve problems. We need to be able to work flexibly, because none of us can predict the future and we need people with positive attitudes to work and lifelong learning. In specific companies we need to be able to provide job-specific knowledge. That is the sort of economic business background we need to go hand in hand with the education system.

991.

In my paper I state that there are far too many people chasing questionable academic qualifications. It is one approach to education but there are others, such as differentiating in post-primary education. The outworking of my first statement is that we do not have enough well-qualified people working at a sub-degree level with resultant disadvantages and shortages.

992.

If we compare Northern Ireland's productivity with the rest of the United Kingdom, or more relevantly with countries such as Germany, we do not show up well. This is partly to do with our approach to education. The current school curriculum reform will see some changes which must encourage a vocational focus and deliver parity with so-called academic qualifications.

993.

Further education has a role to play. I see two broad areas: young people and existing companies participating in lifelong learning. I have said this before and I will continue to say it - further education has had a scattergun strategy. It is trying to do too much and probably failing at everything.

994.

I am not au fait with the present situation, but further education has competed with schools for A level and GCSE students. Some further education colleges make a good living out of A level resits. Generally speaking, in the United Kingdom vocationally relevant options are poorly developed. Options such as business studies are heavily weighted, to the detriment of IT and technological options. I would suggest that further education, in common with every sector of the education system, tends to be dominated by what I call "produce or push". Further education is not good on feedback and modifying on the basis of feedback. It tends to deliver what is available.

995.

When I discuss further education with people, questions are raised on the capability of staff and this should not be forgotten. However, further education is well positioned in the broader debate about the education system and how we deliver parity of esteem, improve vocational education and deal with post-primary education in general. Further education could become a vocational sixth form, producing a route to work or to higher education for vocationally orientated young people. For me, that would add value to the entire system.

996.

In terms of the existing workforce, 90% of companies in Northern Ireland are very small, and we must always remember that. We have talked about the changes in the economy towards a knowledge base. There are too many colleges and too many of them are doing the same thing - they are completely undifferentiated. There are few defined centres of expertise or excellence.

997.

There is a problem in Munster Simms in that the Government strategy for in-company training and development is not available there. I think they are all over the place right now. We have got skill shortages: according to PricewaterhouseCoopers, 60% of companies in Northern Ireland currently report skill shortages. We have a number of good jobs in Munster Simms that we cannot fill, and that situation is replicated throughout Northern Ireland. I worry that there is no clear mechanism that I can relate to, whereby the problems that I have identified on skill shortages can be fed back into the education system.

998.

I recently read a labour market bulletin, which was an interesting thesis, but I do not see it as a practical tool for me to articulate my needs and have them dealt with. Similarly, colleges have little expertise in dealing with the business community, partly because they have had little focus towards business. If that relationship is to be exploited, it will have to be developed.

999.

However, in a small company economy we need a vibrant business-focused further education system. A further education college that delivered that type of support and consultancy would be culturally right for small companies with 10 to 20 people, who are not going to deal with PricewaterhouseCoopers, universities, and so on.

1000.

Supportive changes are going on in the background. We are trying to broaden the curriculum and develop options in line with the Dearing Report. The Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation Transfer System (NICATS) is under way at the University of Ulster, and it will allow people to pick and mix. This will create breadth and increase parity of esteem between vocational education and academic education. I have mentioned CCEA at least three times so that is probably enough for today on the curriculum review.

1001.

A post-primary review has been started in the Department of Education, looking at post-primary structures. Everything has to come together and we cannot make decisions on the selection process until we understand what post-primary education looks like, and further education is an important part of this.

1002.

However, one major issue that is not being dealt with is careers advice. If we are going to drive change and encourage people - and Rodney Saunderson here is a good example -to go down vocational routes to personal development as opposed to traditional academic routes, then we need good, sound careers advice. In my view, the worst people to deliver careers advice are teachers or Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) employees because they operate in a very closed environment. That is not criticism of them as individuals, but they are not best placed.

1003.

In conclusion, I am very excited about the opportunities for further education. Colleges in the Republic of Ireland are highly focused on economic development issues. I was privileged to be involved in an ANIC conference there last year. There are major contrasts and we could learn a lot from them. Some things they do not do are detrimental to what they are trying to deliver, but they are much more focused than we are.

1004.

I was not able to attend the strategic planning meeting of further education colleges, where there was an attempt to devise an economic development plan, which, I think, underplays the weaknesses. One thing about a SWOT analysis, (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats) is that you have to be honest. Malcolm McDonald, the author of 'Marketing Plans: How to Prepare Them, How to Use Them' does not like SWOT analysis. I heard him speak two years ago and he said that SWOT can become SWAG (superficial wild-ass guesses) instead. I am not suggesting that they are wild-ass guesses but I think that the strategy document does not deal with some core weaknesses. On the strategic objectives page there are eleven bullet points. This Department and other Government departments are mentioned eight times but customer needs and quality are not mentioned once.

1005.

The Chairperson: Thank you for that hard hitting and serious analysis of the current situation.

1006.

Mr Beggs: I appreciate the time you have given us as you come from the coalface as opposed to the world of academia and you look at the situation from an employer's point of view. It is important that this view finds its way into the system to meet future needs. You said that 60% of companies have skill shortages and that they lack the mechanism to feed those shortages into the system to create a focus so that school students will be aware that, with training, there are opportunities. You criticise careers guidance, in particular, saying that there is no proper system. This theme has been aired by a number of people. Can you tell us what you think the ideal working model might be? Have you looked at other examples of better careers guidance services that we should take a closer look at and possibly recommend?

1007.

Dr Lennon: In Wales, careers guidance was privatised but I think it is all bits and pieces. There are people in schools giving bits of careers guidance about education and the status quo. There are people in the T&EA giving careers guidance and there are many little organisations around Northern Ireland trying their best to influence things. The whole area of skills shortages and careers guidance should be brought together and should have, at one level, a strategic focus in terms of long-term planning and, at another level, a major policy focus that also deals with lower level one-to-one advice situations. It is very disparate and very split up, and I do not think you can use it as a strategic lever for change unless you have a handle on it. I would not know who to talk to in Northern Ireland about the fact that we have advertised three times in the 'Belfast Telegraph' for tool setters - they just do not exist. We went to the college in Lisburn and they cannot get anybody to enrol on the programme. I do not know what to do with that information.

1008.

Mr Carrick: I note that you require people who can think and solve problems, and that flexibility in lifelong learning and the school curriculum can encourage a vocational focus. I can identify with all that, but you made a comment about there being too many undifferentiated colleges. How would you relate that to the issue of access for local people? There are 17 colleges at the moment. We are talking about 16 to 21-year-olds, and we also need to consider the geographical problems for those living west of the Bann

1009.

Is access not an important issue, and does that not need to be factored into the thinking and the needs of SMEs? After all, SMEs are spread across the Province, and there needs to be local support and provision.

1010.

Dr Lennon: That is a good question. I understand the point and to an extent you are right in saying that the two items work in opposite directions. However, in terms of specialisation, our company would look anywhere. I will give you the example of injection moulding. We would look towards Sligo for that. At the moment Sligo is a centre of excellence, containing a cluster of companies of that type. As far as certain aspects of real expertise are concerned, our company would look anywhere, and I am sure that other small companies in the island of Ireland are not different from us in that respect.

1011.

I think we are talking about different things. I think you are talking about commonality of provision for a local area, whether it is sixth-formers or certain types of business support. Allied with that, I think you are talking about differentiated centres of excellence around the area. The Province is very small. An hour would take you across Northern Ireland and, in global terms, the size is trivial. I do not know what the right number of colleges is. However, we cannot afford to have them compete with each other. We need people who are expert in individual areas, delivering that expertise, and supporting the local constituents whoever they might be. I do not think that they are mutually exclusive.

1012.

Mr Carrick: I appreciate that clarification because earlier I thought you were referring to a centre of excellence.

1013.

Mr Dallat: The question of research and further education colleges came up in an earlier discussion and was probably not concluded. Do you believe that organisations other than universities should be involved with research activities? How can technology transfer between the institutes of further education and business be enhanced?

1014.

Dr Lennon: To be fair, I have not given a lot of thought to that question. Research can be with a big "R" or a small "r". Our company carries out research and development and for us it is with a small "r" and a large "D". If both types of institution were engaged in research, I would expect a university to be involved in the purer end of the research spectrum. I would expect a further education college, if it were turning out - and I wish it were - good production engineers, to be engaged in research in production-engineering techniques, ideas and developments. I would expect them to understand Japanese processes and what makes Japan successful. That is an applied research related to its function. However, I would like to think that if people are running training and development and support programmes that, alongside those, they are researching best practice in developing them. I have not thought deeply about this but that is my immediate response.

1015.

Mr J Kelly: In your paper you mention that if further education colleges are to make progress they will have to provide for the training needs of business. Do you think that there is a corollary - an obligation on business to provide funding for education?

1016.

Dr Lennon: Yes. I am happy to work within whatever rules pertain. I used to tell people in the T&EA that the cause of grant dependency is grants. People will play the system no matter what the system might be. I spent two and a half years with the T&EA. Left to their own devices most companies will not engage in the necessary level of training and development without a carrot or a stick, or both. There has to be some sort of sanction or encouragement.

1017.

There is a big debate in the current Government on whether it is right for Government funds to be used to support in-company development. That is reflected in the confusion that I see now. Companies have to pay, but, unless a number of them are given tax breaks or grant support, encouragement and sanctions will not work. That is the track record.

1018.

Mr J Kelly: Are you saying that there should be a structured approach?

1019.

Dr Lennon: There has to be a strategic approach. I have criticised the company development programme for a number of years because it has been used and abused. Much of the money has been wasted and not strategically levered. Not enough of it has been used in management development. Too much of it has been used to support wage bills. If the Government are going to spend money on levering change, they have every right to demand that that money be used strategically, as opposed to just making the profit and loss account look better.

1020.

The Chairperson: You mentioned - I believe rightly - that the sub-degree level is critical. In the previous two sessions this afternoon, we got somewhat differing messages about what to do. One view was that we should try to develop the HND, which is a reputable qualification. There is some evidence that not enough use is being made of it, and that those who take an HND are using it immediately as a stepping stone to go on to a degree. This is good for them personally, but perhaps leads to labour shortages, especially in IT. We also heard the opposing view that the future lies with the two-year foundation degree, which is now being piloted. At this stage, do you have any views on the relative merits of these two approaches?

1021.

Dr Lennon: Much of what we are doing in education is being driven by the national Government's objective to get as many people as possible into higher education. That produces qualification inflation. A much more appropriate route to go down would be that of Germany, where they have a differentiated system. They have very clear vocational routes and a vocational qualification is necessary to do certain jobs. That is all that is necessary, and it does not need to be inflated further.

1022.

The question is not whether it is an HND or some other sort of degree. My great worry is that we are all going to end up at university doing wonderful courses like degrees in golf course management. Where are people going to learn the technology that will drive change? It has got to be done somewhere.

1023.

The Chairperson: As a supplementary, that raises the issue of what lies at the heart of the CCEA's work. Admittedly, this goes somewhat outside our Committee's remit - it is more the Education Committee's remit - but it has a knock-on effect on our Committee. Is a common curriculum appropriate or, to use your words, should we aim more towards a German or diversified system? In other words, students of a certain sort will do a range of "academic" subjects. Others will perhaps concentrate more on technical, vocational subjects. We will not try to press everyone into the same mould.

1024.

Dr Lennon: I respond with the caveat that I am speaking for myself today. We are formulating a small project team right now to take this forward in the CCEA, and I do not want to pre-empt what the outcome will be. However, there is no doubt, from engaging in the curriculum review and getting feedback from teachers and others, that the secondary sector wants to see changes to the common curriculum and wants to see differentiation. That is no great secret, and I personally support it. Ramming everybody from "high-fliers" through to "the difficult tail" through the same common curriculum does not work.

1025.

The Department of Education has to some extent already recognised that, having begun to allow certain schools a limited opt-out from the National Curriculum. We are running a case study project on the Shankill Road. Although we have not yet completed the Common Curriculum consultation process with the CCEA, all of the evidence seems to say that the Common Curriculum, if there is to be one, should be smaller, with a greater degree of flexibility and much more room for such things as GNVQs in vocational education. I am personally very strongly in favour of that.

1026.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. I suppose we are heading towards the end of the allotted time. That was extremely interesting. You were provocative, but the issues are sufficiently significant to demand that. We have had three sessions this afternoon, so it was important that you pitched your evidence at such a level. You certainly kept our attention.

1027.

Mr Dallat: Perhaps I might ask a question before we close. You were fairly clear that further education colleges need to do something about themselves. Can you give us some idea of what they should do?

1028.

Dr Lennon: I have met the relevant people many times. I do not know why I got involved, but I did. I was with them at their conference in Ennis last year. They invited me along to speak and give them an outsider's view. I appreciate the opportunity to provide a customer's view.

1029.

I was unable to get to their meeting a week or two ago, but, from reading this document, I would say that they wish to change. The real risk is that they underestimate some of the strategic issues with which they must deal. They do not have the expertise in dealing with business. There are questions about the quality of staff and some difficult and important issues which must somehow find their way onto the strategic change agenda. They are presently working in many areas, including adult literacy issues and recreation, but one cannot do everything well, and they will have to make some hard choices. They will have to face up to very thorough SWOT analyses.

1030.

Having read the document, it seems to me they are saying that if only everyone understood further education better and if it were better funded, everything would be all right. It will not be that simple, for they have a great deal of work to do with the business community on their agenda. There is much goodwill and many people are willing to help. In such a process of change, it is never easy to say that there are major problems, for that implies criticism of the past, but we must attain that level of discussion. I do not know if I am ringing any bells.

1031.

Mr Dallat: You are.

1032.

Dr Lennon: I have been through a similar exercise in our company. It is easy to say that one has plenty of strengths and almost no weaknesses, great opportunities and no threats. This happens typically unless one is very self-critical indeed, perhaps inviting outsiders to act as a mirror.

1033.

Mr Dallat: So there are more SWAGs than SWOTs.

1034.

Dr Lennon: There usually are more. You will remember that one.

1035.

Mr Dallat: Very definitely.

1036.

The Chairperson: I hope you will not be using that line in the Chamber next Monday, Mr Dallat. Thank you very much, Dr Lennon. That was extremely useful, and we will also look at your written paper. There is a fair chance that we shall come back to you at some point in the inquiry. We might also be looking at some issues regarding the CCEA. Thank you for giving us your perspective as an employer and as a person who is running a very innovative, high-performing company. Your perspective on labour supply has been very valuable. We thank Rodney Saunderson as well.

1037.

Dr Lennon: Thank you for having us. We will leave a copy of the overheads in case anyone wants them.

Thursday 7 December 2000

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly

Witnesses:
Prof P Murphy )
Mr K Chambers ) Belfast Institute of Further and
Mr D West ) Higher Education

1038.

The Chairperson: It is my pleasure to welcome Prof Patrick Murphy, Director of the Belfast Institute of Higher and Further Education, Kevin Chambers, Assistant Director for Estates, and David West. Do you wish to give an opening presentation?

1039.

Prof Murphy: Not so much a presentation, but a brief opening statement. Thank you for your invitation; we are very pleased to be here.

1040.

Further education - its funding, investment and accommodation levels over the years - has perhaps been somewhat underestimated as far as its contribution to the Northern Ireland economy is concerned.

1041.

Is further and higher education's contribution to industry its main purpose, its sole purpose or part of its purpose? What are we about? What are we meant to be about? Should changes to the system emerge from the 11-plus review, and if the present grammar school, secondary school and further education system is affected, then perhaps we should look at the future of further and higher education in the light of what is happening in the present school system.

1042.

The Chairperson: Do you propose to cover all of that? That is very ambitious.

1043.

Prof Murphy: I was hoping that the Committee might cover all of that, but there are several points there and I do recognise that there may not be enough time.

1044.

The Chairperson: Go ahead.

1045.

Prof Murphy: That is my opening statement. I will take questions to cover the ground.

1046.

The Chairperson: We can go straight to the questions then.

1047.

Prof Murphy: Yes, if you are happy with that.

1048.

Mr J Kelly: Good afternoon. You have stated that you are very uneasy about asking students to pay their way through education. Do you have any further views on student finance, including how we can make it affordable to the Government?

1049.

Prof Murphy: I am a product of the welfare state. I am here because of the 11-plus and the welfare state. There is a culture for people of my age to say "Oops, sorry, there is no money left now, and the people coming behind us cannot get the same benefit as we got". I would, therefore, be a believer in the welfare state. Everybody who is studying, at whatever level, should be entitled to some kind of financial support.

1050.

Having said that, I am not Sean Farren, and I am not a Minister in the Assembly with the problem of making a very limited budget go as far as possible. There are not sufficient funds to support everybody who wants to study everything at all levels. If I am wrong, and there is enough money for everybody, then that answers the question. If, however, it has to be selectively applied, then the Minister and yourselves have to decide to whom this money will be selectively applied, and on what basis. I am not quite sure what way the Minister is going in this particular argument, but he did hint in a newspaper article yesterday - which I understand caused some discontent among some people - that he was going to target social need. I am not yet in a position to judge how social need will be targeted and on what basis. However, the principle is a worthy starting point.

1051.

Ideally, I would like every student to be funded to the level that he or she wants, in whatever he or she wants to do, but education is changing very much. People of my age traditionally went to university from the age of 18 until they were 21 or 22. That has changed, as adults return to education, and people come in from the community. People are involved in education at all levels, and there is lifelong learning. Do we just fund the students who are at university, and do we let the rest go? Do we have a two-tier system? We cannot have that.

1052.

The Minister is proposing that funding be based on targeting social need. In principle that is good and I would support it, but I do not know the details yet. The Minister has a difficulty because he cannot raise taxes - he has not the power - so he cannot raise more money. To bring additional money into education, it has to come from an increased block grant from Westminster or else be taken off the Health Service, roads, or whatever. It would be easy for me to suggest giving the money to the students and taking it off someone else, but it is not my decision.

1053.

The Minister has looked at the problem very seriously, and I understand the concerns in your Committee also. It is a very difficult one, and in principle I am for free education. In practice, I must ask whether there is enough money to pay for it.

1054.

Mr J Kelly: To follow that up, does business have a role to play in the financing of further and higher education, or third-level education in general?

1055.

Prof Murphy: This is something that I would urge the Committee to look at in greater detail. As Mr Kelly will be aware, the private finance initiative (PFI), or capital funding is now well developed, in further and higher education. We are involved with one scheme at Millfield and will be involved with another at Springvale.

1056.

The role of business is crucial, but the danger is that a business will support only those students who are going to go into that particular business. If you want to study philosophy you will not stand the same chance of getting a grant as you would if you wanted to study electronics. Perhaps that is a good thing, and perhaps we should only support people who study electronics, and not those who study philosophy, or languages such as French and Irish. That is another issue.

1057.

The role of business is crucial. The universities and ourselves are producing trained labour to whatever quality and standard, and the businesses are then using those people to make profit. I agree with Mr Kelly - business should be investing at an early stage.

1058.

However, the detail of that could be difficult. Many businesses are now multinational, so if an American firm has a branch in Northern Ireland, will it support students in America or students in Northern Ireland. How would that affect their shareholders? It is an excellent idea in principle, and it is worthy of further examination.

1059.

Mr Beggs: Why is the Belfast Institute not a member of the Association of Northern Ireland Colleges (ANIC)? Would it not benefit the further education sector if there were a collective approach? Is further education not weakened by your absence from ANIC, and why should your college be consulted separately?

1060.

Prof Murphy: Under incorporation we have the right to administer our own affairs and, therefore, we have the right to be consulted separately. There is a reason why we are not in ANIC. For the negotiations on salaries, wages and conditions for the sector we work with it on a regional-negotiation basis. The key issues for staff are covered collectively across Northern Ireland. However, we represent 25% of the sector. There are six other colleges that, together, represent less than 25%. We have our own personnel staff and finance staff, but the smaller colleges come together to buy that as a collective service.

1061.

We have a choice. Do we pay for it twice - our personnel people and the collective personnel system - or do we do our own thing? We inherited a system from the Belfast Education and Library Board whereby we have our own personnel and finance staff, and we have retained that system. Having said that, we work closely with the other colleges on curriculum developments and on wages and salaries.

1062.

Mr Beggs: If it is purely a matter of the cost of personnel services that you do not need because you have your own, could you not negotiate a suitable discount?

1063.

Prof Murphy: Take for example Information and Communication Technology (ICT). We have devised our own ICT strategy. The other colleges, on a different scale, require a different system, so we have developed -

1064.

Mr Beggs: The trouble is that we are seeing two groups from further education. It would be much more efficient for further education to be represented by one group, rather than for us to have to bring in two groups. I would have thought that it would be the same in dealing with the Department.

1065.

Prof Murphy: It may be more efficient for the Committee. I am sorry if I am causing the Committee any difficulty - that is certainly far from being my intention. However, to suggest that the further and higher education system in Northern Ireland can be viewed as a homogeneous unit perhaps fails to understand the true remit of the entire sector.

1066.

Mr Chambers: On a practical basis we work very closely with many of our colleagues right across the sector in an informal way, and we work very effectively in that respect. You have to recognise that there are clear differences in terms of size, complexity, and geographical location as far as the Belfast Institute and the other colleges are concerned. For us to be part of ANIC would limit and inhibit us in many respects.

1067.

Mr Beggs: Can you explain that?

1068.

Mr Chambers: We have a degree of flexibility in how we develop a service right across the community to industry and to all the interested parties. In many respects other colleges do not have that, because of their location, and their lack of breadth of expertise. I think that working through ANIC would inhibit the service that we provide.

1069.

Prof Murphy: The second-largest college in Northern Ireland - the North West Institute of Further and Higher Education - has recently left ANIC for the same reasons that we did not join.

1070.

Mr Byrne: What is the future role of further education colleges in relation to their vocational training provision and their higher education provision? That is a fundamental issue. Obviously, some colleges, such as your own, have developed a lot of higher education provision. There is a question about the role, remit and indeed the philosophy, of such a college. I have to say that I regard it as a bit arrogant to think that because your college is big and because it is located in Belfast that it should be -

1071.

Mr Chambers: That is only one of the factors.

1072.

Mr Byrne: With respect, if we are going to sort out further education in the future and stop it being the Cinderella of the service, I would have thought that a collective approach, based on good solid arguments from the 17 colleges, would lend strength to that. This Committee represents all of Northern Ireland. I do not think any further education college - no matter how big it is - should have an advantage over any other college. If you believe in the age of equality, then a student who lives in Dromore, County Tyrone should be equal to one who lives in Dromore, County Down.

1073.

I urge BIFHE to join ANIC and contribute to the collective thinking on behalf of the further education sector. I would like to hear a stronger reason why it is not a member. I do not think it is a good enough argument to say that the North West Institute of Further and Higher Education is pulling out. I do not understand the logic of that.

1074.

Can BIFHE provide a service to those parts of the city where it does not have an actual building, particularly in relation to those pupils who have not attained anything by the age of 16? How strong a presence does BIFHE have in those areas?

1075.

Prof Murphy: We operate from six main campuses, five other buildings and 200 outreach centres. It depends on what you mean by having a presence. I do not intend any disrespect to people in Belfast, but there is a desire in Belfast for a school, a building or a college in every street or area. That is obviously impossible. We have a limited budget. We have to decide how many buildings we can afford to operate. The more buildings you have, the greater the inefficiency and costs. The fewer buildings you have, the greater the efficiency. We have a balance.

1076.

We inherited a system with six major campuses. We are now reducing that. We are closing a building in south Belfast, on the Ormeau Embankment, and relocating the activities at Millfield. You might ask to what extent that disadvantages people in Belfast. However, our buildings are not solely for the immediate community. We run further and higher education courses in all of them. In higher education we are trying to serve all of Northern Ireland. If you arrive on a wet Monday morning at Great Victoria Street, how do you get to the Ormeau Road? The other side of the coin is what about Mrs Smith who lives up the road? How does she access the class there?

1077.

We have tried to increase the number on a pyramidal basis. The 200 outreach centres are the bottom of the pyramid, and it declines as we reach the top with a higher level of education. We have tried to have all our buildings in the centre, within reach of the red-bus routes, so that anyone from any part of the city can access us. Anybody from anywhere in Northern Ireland coming into Great Victoria Street is also within a short walking distance of those buildings. That is our strategy and that is what generally works.

1078.

However, physical access is not the only point. We have tried to ensure that there is academic access. For example, we use our community education centres to progress people through the system. The Minister will be coming in a week or two to open a new call centre training facility in the city centre. We use our outreach centres all over Belfast to give people interview and social interaction skills. They then progress into the city centre to train for working in a call centre, and then they are in the system.

1079.

Mr Byrne asked if I can be sure that every student has equal access all over the city. I obviously cannot. Our strategy is to maximise the efficiency of our service and to provide maximum access for as many people as possible. Is there a student from some part of Belfast who cannot get to us? Probably.

1080.

Mr Byrne: I have a follow-up point. The issue is important and we cannot just ignore it. The primary objective for further and higher education is to get to those people who have either not had the right education up to the age of 16 or who have gone into employment and then want to be retrained. Such people want to use the further and higher education route as a way of empowering themselves. I want to be assured that the interests of the academically less well off are being well catered for by your college.

1081.

Prof Murphy: I think they are. The difficulty is that it is a bit like church - it is not those who are in the system that you have to worry about, it is those who have not quite got there. In relation to that challenge, I would use the example of Springvale. Springvale was originally proposed as a university. I opposed that. That was a very unpopular move at the time. I was making the point that universities are not simply buildings. Universities do not change areas unless there is an access mechanism. It was for that reason that the University of Ulster and ourselves finally agreed on a different proposal to that originally envisaged, allowing people maximum opportunity to access the system.

1082.

Our community education headquarters will be based at Springvale. It will be linked electronically to 200 centres across the city for teaching and administrative purposes. There will be no part of Belfast which cannot be accessed through that system. You were making the point about having a building in a certain centre -

1083.

Mr Byrne: I did not say that. I was asking how, in those areas where you do not have a building, you can make a direct, relevant and meaningful connection with people who feel disaffected.

1084.

Prof Murphy: The disaffected people, initially, often do not want to come to an educational building. They will go to a community centre, a neighbourhood centre or a church hall. We find that if we have a large school-type building, it very often puts people off. We bring them through the local community, where they feel comfortable, before progressing them further.

1085.

Mr Dallat: I am endeavouring to compress about four questions into one without you noticing it.

1086.

The Chairperson: Could you make them all short?

1087.

Mr Dallat: The mind boggles at the complexity of your organisation, and I just wonder how you can manage to sustain high morale and a low turnover of staff - all things that are important to students receiving a good education.

1088.

Being a rural dweller I am concerned about the power of numbers found in the North West Institute of Further and Higher Education and in your institute at the other end of the North. You seem to have developed your own model, and I wonder where the colleges in between fit in. New technology is just as important in Kilrea as it is in Belfast or Derry.

1089.

I would also appreciate your views on public-private partnerships (PPPs), as the work you are involved in needs money - a lot more money than the Minister might have.

1090.

Prof Murphy: I will take the issue of the rural dweller first. As a fellow rural dweller I share your concerns - as you can hear I have not cultivated the Belfast accent as yet. On the issue of the management of size we represent 25% of the sector. That is not a conscious decision. The Belfast Education and Library Board brought together the three largest colleges in Northern Ireland, and that is the end of the matter. It is simply a reflection of the number of people in Belfast. Belfast would have more than 25% of the population at present and that is a reflection of that figure.

1091.

On the point about the north-west, Mr Dallat is arguing for some sort of strategy to ensure that everyone is Northern Ireland has equality of access to learning from wherever they live.

1092.

Mr Dallat: Precisely.

1093.

Prof Murphy: Community education in Belfast is easy. One can take a street with 150 houses and organise community education there. I do not have a clue how that is done in west Fermanagh. For us to say that we are great, that we have 20,000 people in community education, and that there is a desire and hunger for knowledge and learning in Belfast, is relatively easy for us. In rural areas it is difficult.

1094.

As Mr Dallat has already hinted, the way forward is through the electronic revolution whereby people can access learning at home. We are currently involved in a proposal for a submission to Europe for funding in relation to Springvale. It involves bringing an electronic revolution to north and west Belfast in the same way that the Government in the South brought it to the village of Ennis. Everyone in that area has a laptop or computer which allows them to access a huge information base and progresses them through learning. Why can that not be a model for all of Northern Ireland?

1095.

Mr Beggs' point about a strategy for colleges in Northern Ireland is pertinent. Perhaps he is hinting that if colleges are distant from one another then the system is somehow unco-ordinated. I would argue that the co-ordination is there, but that the Department needs a greater strategic drive to allow the colleges to be involved in a more coherent fashion.

1096.

You will remember that in Mrs Thatcher's era - which took a long time to die in Northern Ireland - competition between colleges was promoted. Funding is still allocated on a competitive basis. We need a choice here - let us compete or let us collaborate. If we compete or collaborate we will do well. We need a steer as to the way to go. Do not ask us to compete and then say "Why are you not collaborating?" You cannot have it both ways.

1097.

Mr Dallat raised the issue of the management of size. Size is not important. We have eight departments the size of large secondary or grammar schools, with 120 staff including part-timers, and a budget of over £3 million. You simply break them up into units. There is a great saving in terms of efficiency, because the one system does the lot in relation to computers, administration, cleaning and the management of information systems.

1098.

The salaries of principals and senior management in other small colleges cost more. I am not arguing that big is better. I am making the point that we can manage it - it can be done. There is a strong case for saying that the further education system in Northern Ireland could be managed centrally - by the Department, perhaps. That would give clear direction to the strategy mentioned by Mr Beggs and Mr Byrne.

1099.

As regards PFI and PPP, we have a PFI partnership in relation to the College of Technology at Millfield at the moment. I am a product of the welfare state and I am against PFI. However, the Minister does not have £20 million to give us, so when he offers us PFI, we go for PFI.

1100.

In a democratic society such as this, when Government says we should follow the PFI model then the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education will give you the best PFI model that you have ever seen. If it is then changed to the XYZ model, we will give you the best XYZ model. However, that decision is one for the Assembly.

1101.

Some members of the Committee would have reservations about PFI, and I understand that. The Committee is welcome to come to our institute at some time after Christmas and see how PFI is actually working. You can listen to me, see the buildings and speak to the private sector provider. The Committee might then have a better view of PFI. The private sector has a major role to play in funding further and higher education.

1102.

At Springvale, the next phase will be the main campus in the university - the education village area. Work has already started on the community education outreach building, which will cost £40 million and is being funded through PFI. If you do not like PFI then you should shout out soon and give us a cheque for £40 million - I suspect that you will advocate going down the PFI road.

1103.

Mr Beggs: You raised the issue of community education going to Springvale. I am aware of concerns about the temporary location of a training course in community development being at Whiterock, which is not perceived to be a neutral area. There is widespread under-provision of trained community development workers, particularly in the Unionist community. Why have you moved the course to an area that is not perceived to be neutral? You are actually excluding and preventing access.

1104.

Prof Murphy: That is not our intention.

1105.

Mr Beggs: It may not be your intention but that is the result.

1106.

Prof Murphy: I will talk to Mr Beggs in detail about any point he wishes to make. We have a difficulty - and this goes back to the point raised by Mr Byrne - about whether we should have a presence in every part of the city. Obviously we try to be in as many parts as possible. Mr Beggs is quite right in saying that the Whiterock area is perceived to have particular politico-religious allegiances, and I accept that. However, when we look at Tower Street, off the Newtownards Road, it is seen as being the other way round. We could simply say that in those circumstances we provide ghetto-type courses solely for the people in those areas. What we try to do is to spread higher education across the city. However, the question is that - and Mr Beggs is quite right - when you put a higher education course in one location and not in another, are you disadvantaging one side of the community or the other. We always have difficulties with that, and we look at each course concerned and make changes if necessary.

1107.

Mr Beggs: Would it not be more appropriate to locate that particular course in a neutral location?

1108.

Prof Murphy: I am not familiar with the details of that course, but I am happy to relocate any course if the students approach us. It is not our job to make life difficult for people - it is not in our interest. We get our money through the numbers of students we have. If we lose a student, we lose money. There is no mileage for us in losing students.

1109.

Mr Chambers: We have relocated courses for that reason, and I can give examples of where we have done that to suit students.

1110.

Mr Beggs: I will watch developments as far as this particular course is concerned.

1111.

Mr West: The course is currently under review. It was placed at Whiterock by agreement with the university in the first place. We are held to that agreement until the review is complete.

1112.

Mr J Kelly: There are arguments about location and relocation in industry as well as in education. It is a very broad issue. In relation to PFI you said that, on one hand, private investment in education was difficult to obtain, while, on the other hand, if the Government will not give you £40 million, PFI will. I am opposed to PFI in principle. I am not approaching the subject blindly - I see difficulties.

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