MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
RELATING TO THE REPORT

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Tuesday 19 February 2002

Members present:

Mr Cobain (Chairperson)
Mr Hamilton
Mr B Hutchinson
Mr ONeill
Mr M Robinson
Mr Tierney

Witnesses:

Ms M O'Boyle                        )
Mr D Burns                        )                         Homefirst Community Trust
Mrs E Arrell                        )

425.

The Chairperson: The Committee welcomes Ms Mary O'Boyle, Mr David Burns and Mrs Enda Arrell from Homefirst Community Trust, Antrim.

426.

Ms O'Boyle: We are approaching this from the viewpoint of mental health social work and our experience of working out of hours. We use a definition of homeless­ness given by Shelter: "A home is somewhere affordable, of adequate size and design, in good repair, safe, secure, with support when required, within strong and inclusive communities."

427.

The most common cause of homelessness is mental illness. About 30% to 50% of people who are homeless have a mental illness. It can be a cause of homelessness, and it can also be a result of homelessness. Some people who are homeless have a dual diagnosis - a mental illness plus an addiction problem. People who are homeless have no one to alert mental health services. You will have heard of the Christopher Clunis case. The point was strongly made at the inquiry that he was wandering around homeless, and nobody knew that he had a sister who was terribly worried and trying to get services for him.

428.

After mental illness, substance misuse rates highly. Others reasons for homelessness are relationship breakdown, intimidation, paramilitary threats, domestic violence, eviction, lack of family support and poor housing in the private sector. I have already forwarded some information to the Committee, but I want now to relate that to our local situation. The following infor­mation has not been validated in any way. It was put together by a member of the addiction team - a senior social worker - when we were looking at need in relation to the necessary provision of accommodation.

429.

In the Northern Board area, the total number of people identified with substance misuse and accom­modation problems in the financial year 2000-01 was 111. I will break that figure down. Fifty of those people were in the Ballymena area - you will know from the press that there is a high incidence of drug abuse in that area. Thirty-six were from the Magherafelt and Cookstown area; 14 were from Antrim; five from Larne, Carrick and Newtownabbey; and six from Coleraine.

430.

As for my own experience, in July last year the out of hours social work service had 10 referrals in two weeks, and in two months last year - May to July - probation had eight referrals in our local area. That gives you an idea of the large number of homeless people, under our definition.

431.

We use Housing Executive accommodation, and we work closely with the Housing Executive. We also use private accommodation such as bed and breakfasts, hotels and voluntary hostels such as the Simon Community, the Mid-Ulster and South Tyrone (MUST) hostel in Cookstown, Women's Aid, et cetera. That is not without problems, because the voluntary hostels all have restrictions, and several of them do not take people who have alcohol or drug problems. The majority do not take people who are suspected or convicted sex offenders, and when we have people referred with that kind of background, we have great difficulty finding accommodation. I have spent hours on the telephone with the Housing Executive between 9.00 am and 5.00 pm trying to get accommodation, and then out of hours, sometimes in co-operation with the police, who help us out.

432.

Issues relating to the provision of care for the homeless centre on staffing - there is a need for staff to be trained, to have training in mental health and substance misuse and to have a tolerance for people with those problems.

433.

Accessing health services is a big issue. We find that GPs are unwilling to add homeless people to their caseloads, and dentists are unwilling to treat them. Therefore, their general health and mental health deteriorate. We approach the Central Services Agency in such cases - a GP can be compelled to take a person on for a month, but they usually sign them off at the end of that time, and the cycle continues.

434.

There are also issues about the social and rehabilitation needs of homeless people. The Homefirst Community Trust aspires to having people assessed and rehabilitated, so that they can become independent like everyone else and access normal housing. However, they can only do that with support, but there is no support for them. Homefirst does what it can, but its time and resources are limited.

435.

Homeless people find it difficult to access benefits because they must keep moving. They might stay for one or two nights in one place and then move on. Therefore, they are always claiming benefits in retrospect, which is difficult. There is also a big problem with community tolerance. Nobody wants the problem in their back yard. That affects people who have alcohol and drug problems, or who are sex offenders, in particular.

436.

The Committee asked what arrangements we have in place to deal with homelessness. As I said, the 9.00 am to 5.00 pm service is provided by the Housing Executive and an out of hours service is provided by social services. We only deal with vulnerable people, those with mental health problems or physical disabilities, or those who have been discharged from prison.

437.

The Committee asked how well our arrangements address the issues. As I said, the services are OK for some people. The big problems involve alcohol, drugs, sex offenders and families. It is difficult to accommodate families together. Our existing arrangements are inadequate. If we get accommodation for someone, they only get a bed for the night. If, for example, we accommodate a family, there are generally no cooking facilities or means of preparing babies' bottles. Those people rely on the goodwill of the proprietor, which is variable.

438.

The mix of residents can also cause difficulties, particularly in guesthouses. For example, we would not want to arrange accommodation for someone with a history of sex offences in the same place as a family. Unfortunately, we do not have the selection of accommodation to allow us to pick and choose. Often, our priority is simply to get a roof over a person's head. The majority of proprietors are unwilling to take Housing Executive or social services clients.

439.

I would like to say more about the changes that Homefirst would like. In Homefirst's area there is a need for what we call a "wet hostel" - some sort of accommodation that will tolerate people with alcohol or drug problems. There is also a need for a "move on" place. I do not know whether the Committee members know of Carlisle House in Belfast. The Presbyterian Church's Board of Social Witness runs it. It provides "move on" accommodation for people who are receiving treatment for addiction problems. They are supported there for a while, and, hopefully, they then move on to greater independence.

440.

Homefirst would like more accommodation to be provided for teenagers, not only those who have been in care, but those who have family difficulties or behaviour problems and are no longer able to live with their families. There is also a need for accommodation that is exclusively for women. We would also like more formal co-ordination and stronger links between Homefirst and the Housing Executive. We work well with the Housing Executive on a local level, but there is no overall formal co-ordination to tackle homelessness.

441.

You may be aware of a pilot project that took place a few years ago in Belfast along those lines, involving the Housing Executive and social services. Any contact I had with them resulted in good outcomes, and it was very successful. They had a much more co-ordinated approach, and, being in Belfast, they were able to access a better range of accommodation. I know that some folk that we referred to them were rehabilitated and moved to independent support.

442.

Our knowledge and experience of other organ­isations in Northern Ireland is good, but outside Northern Ireland it is limited. We use the Housing Executive's Alveston House in Ballymena, which is comprised of flats. We use voluntary hostels. We use the MUST hostel in Cookstown. It has a high tolerance level for people who have been released from prison, but does not accept those who have convictions for sex offences or are potential sex offenders. We use Women's Aid, the Lighthouse in Ballymena, and the Simon Community. The arrangements provided by other organisations have their good points and their bad points.

443.

The difficulty is that admission into much of the available accommodation needs to be planned in advance. That is a problem in an emergency situation. You cannot have a planned admission at 1 am or 2 am. We would like to have more emergency accommodation. As I said earlier, accommodation is not open to all groups. Finance often causes problems, because people get a bed but have no money for food. If they are vulnerable, we can meet that need through social services. However, if they are able-bodied and have come out of prison, we are unable to help.

444.

At present, we work closely with the Housing Executive. We carry out their role out-of-hours. Funding enables us to provide a bed and a taxi to wherever the client is going. What do I feel about funding for the homeless? I believe that we need more than beds. Support and rehabilitation is important. Some money needs to be spent on creating an inter-agency approach. Organisations are all too willing to avoid a particular problem. There is not, at present, a good climate of inter-agency co-operation.

445.

We need a range of accommodation to cater for difficult-to-place groups. We need rehabilitation and support services. We need move-on facilities, and we need good access to the health services.

446.

The Chairperson: I must apologise as I have to go to another meeting. We agreed earlier that Mr ONeill would chair the rest of the meeting.

447.

Ms O'Boyle: I have brought a copy of an article about homelessness and mental health risk assessment, which you may find useful. I will leave it with you.

448.

The Acting Chairperson: Thank you very much.

449.

Mrs Arrell: You may be aware that in the past year we have opened a new facility dealing with addiction and substance misuse. As part of our pro­gramme, we advise clients to avoid the people and the places where substances are used. That is difficult when there is nowhere else for them to go. Very often, at the point when they come to us in the addiction unit, family relationships have broken down. They are sleeping homeless in the streets, or are in houses often frequented by four or five other people. They may go on to Carlisle House, but they will stay with us for two to three weeks. At the point of discharge, they may be homeless.

450.

As Ms O'Boyle said, we do not have an overall agreement, but we have been able to have people assessed as homeless prior to leaving the ward. That means that there will be some arrangements in place before they walk out onto the street. This is something new that I have developed over the past few months. It is a problem when people go out onto the streets and meet those with whom they used substances before.

451.

You may also be aware that maintenance prescribing is not yet available in Northern Ireland for people who have been abusing substances. Dr Karen McElrath at Queen's University is currently investigating that problem. It is hoped that when that committee meets in June, some form of substitute prescribing will be available, which is tied into a GP and a pharmacist being able to prescribe. For example, situations have arisen where people who leave the unit have a GP in one town and the Housing Executive is offering them accommodation in Belfast. We have in place an arrangement where a GP and a pharmacist may offer a longer detox programme in the community. That is not feasible, however, if they are going to be offered accommodation in Belfast, Portrush or wherever. We need accommodation appropriately located.

452.

The Acting Chairperson: I am sure that Members will have questions to put to you. Your invaluable experiences will help the Committee understand the problem throughout the whole of Northern Ireland. You discussed a "wet hostel". Have you in mind something like the Brunswick Street hostel?

453.

Ms O'Boyle: We are thinking along the lines of the hostel in Derry, which has a high tolerance level for people who are still drinking, and it is successful. I am not familiar with the one in Brunswick Street.

454.

Mr Tierney: I am from Derry, and I know that one of the problems is becoming listed as a homeless person. In Derry, it can take over a year to be re-housed. Even if a social worker reports that a person has a priority need, there are those homeless also. Being given priority need does not automatically mean a person will be re-housed. Once a person is in the hostel, classified as homeless and assessed for points for housing, it can take a while to be re-housed, because of the lack of housing. The easy solution is to build more homes; that would take away the problem. However, we are not going to get the needed new housing in the near future.

455.

Is it your opinion that homeless persons should stay in the hostels until they are re-housed? You mentioned earlier someone who was on the ward for a month.

456.

Mrs Arrell: The normal length of stay is three to four weeks. Ms O'Boyle has explained that some people go on to Carlisle House alcohol and drug treatment unit or to Northlands - those are eight-week programmes. However, some people decide to leave after the three or four weeks, and supported accommodation is then needed where staff have some understanding of addiction and relapse prevention and are available to help. The problem with some of the hostels, such as Women's Aid, which I have used for women leaving hospital, is that no-one is available after 5.00 pm or at weekends when the staff are only available on call. We need more supported accommodation with a phased re-entry into the community.

457.

Mr Tierney: I would support that proposal. Are you talking about purpose-built accommodation, with the proper staffing, for the second phase after the three to four weeks?

458.

Mrs Arrell: Carlisle House and Gray's Court do have that sort of supported accommodation. It helps the person to move on from the intensive treatment and breaks them gently back into the community, with support from the Gray's Court staff.

459.

Mr Tierney: I have a final question. You said that different agencies are involved and that that there are so many homeless people that each says, "It is not my problem". Someone has to take the decision on the homeless person's needs and the treatment that they require. Who would you see as making that decision? Would it be the Housing Executive or social services?

460.

Ms O'Boyle: It is both. The Housing Executive would make the decision between 9.00 am and 5.00 pm. While the Housing Executive staff are experienced, they would not be trained to assess health and social care needs. After hours, we do it. Ours is an emergency service. I was co-ordinator on duty for the Northern Board a week ago last Sunday, and I had three referrals for homelessness. I dealt with them all over the telephone by ringing different agencies, et cetera. I talked to the individuals on the telephone, but you cannot assess someone that way. It is very much an emergency service and dealing with the people who present; it does not involve doing a full assessment.

461.

The Acting Chairperson: You seem to have a considerable degree of experience in dealing with people who suffer from substance abuse, as opposed to alcoholism. Is there a difference in how people are treated, or is addiction in the homeless generally treated much the same? I am talking about solving the problem and how to rehabilitate people.

462.

Mrs Arrell: In Northern Ireland, drug misuse is relatively new. Substance misuse, specifically alcohol misuse, has been going on for a long time. In my experience, there is certainly more tolerance of alcohol. If people have been known to be drug users, or perhaps drug dealers, they will not get private accommodation anywhere. Their reputation goes before them in attempting to deal with estate agents or GPs. They find it extremely difficult to get GPs. We are constantly going through the Central Services Agency.

463.

The public are generally intolerant of drug users. If they see someone lying in the street intoxicated from alcohol, they are more likely to pity them or say "Poor so-and-so", but if the person's state is due to drug misuse, they are very much seen as having brought it on themselves. There is not the same understanding.

464.

Ms O'Boyle: Behavioural problems and challen­ging behaviour often accompany both alcohol and drug misuse. It is difficult for proprietors to tolerate that. You need staff who are able to manage that type of behaviour. That comes with training and experience.

465.

Mrs Arrell: The other thing about relapse pre­vention is that if someone leaves hospital in a clean state and goes into a hostel where there are two other users, they have absolutely no hope of surviving. They will be using in a short time. That is the other important thing.

466.

The Acting Chairperson: Are there no other questions?

467.

Mr Hamilton: I apologise for being late; I was at another meeting. Drug abuse was mentioned, and how landlords will not touch people known to be drug users. Those people obviously must experience a greater degree of difficulty in finding accommodation. What happens when they cannot, when no landlord will touch them? Is there any back-up there?

468.

Mrs Arrell: At the point where someone comes into the unit, families have often disengaged; they have said that they cannot tolerate the behaviour anymore. However, once someone comes to get help again, families often come back on board. Families often say that the person deserves another chance and will give them accommodation. I also do much work with families in providing support and helping to rebuild relationships when the person is with us for treatment. That is followed up by a community addiction team.

469.

Ms O'Boyle: I recall a few occasions when people who had no conviction for sex offending moved into a neighbourhood and the neighbours assumed that, because they had just moved into the area, they had such a conviction. That has resulted in some not getting accommodation and in people standing outside the police station all night. It is an extreme example, but such things happen.

470.

The Acting Chairperson: Thank you for your evidence. We are collecting evidence on a range of homelessness issues, which will be distilled and used when we make any housing recommendations. All the evidence that we receive is valuable.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Tuesday 19 February 2002

Members present:

Mr ONeill (Temporary Chairperson)

Mr Hamilton

Mr B Hutchinson

Mr M Robinson

Mr Tierney

Witnesses:

Mr P White      )                       Project Team Leader

Mr T McGrath  )                       Support and Lodging Scheme                                                Co-ordinator

377.

The Acting Chairperson: Welcome, Mr White and Mr McGrath. This is an opportunity to make additional comments to your written submission.

378.

Mr White: I have some additional material that the Committee might find useful.

379.

My name is Peadar White and I am a social work team leader in Craigavon and Banbridge Health and Social Services Trust. I manage a project called the young persons' project. With me is my colleague, Tom McGrath, who is also a social worker and who is also on the project. I thank the Committee for inviting us and giving us an opportunity to talk about the supported lodgings scheme.

380.

I will explain briefly the framework behind the young persons' project, which includes the supported lodgings scheme. Information is given on the back of the document 'STAY Project: Supported Temporary Accomo­dation for Youth', which has just been given to the Committee. This is a social work project but, unlike any other social work project in Ireland or further afield, it operates on a voluntary basis with young people perceived to be at risk of going into care or custody, or who are involved in behaviours or activities that put them at risk.

381.

We work in a voluntary capacity with young people and their parents. The project is very much community led and we are aware that in order for it to survive we must not use the statutory authority at our disposal. We have to listen to what young people, in particular, and the community, in general, are telling us.

382.

In 1998 it was clear that many 16- or 17-year-olds were being placed in the community mainly by their families because parents wanted them "off site". Those parents were prepared to act as guarantor for houses, and so young people ended up in flats alone and vulnerable. At that time the Housing Executive were referring cases to us, and people such as Mr McGrath and myself went out knocking on doors. I am sure that when Committee members are canvassing they will sometimes recognise the hollow sound of a knock on the door, which tells you that there is no furniture within. The young people were lying on mattresses: perhaps they had a small cooker, but they did not have much else. They were very vulnerable, and local people fed on that vulnerability.

383.

We told those young people about the support we could offer them. We tried to get them employment; we tried to ensure that they got the benefits they were entitled to, and we extracted money from local charities to try to set them up. It worked for some of them, but not for the majority.

384.

Accommodation is not the issue for us. We are from Craigavon and Portadown and there are estates full of houses that we could give to young people. Youth homelessness is not about bricks and mortar; they only support roofs. We must support the young people in the buildings.

385.

We talked to the young people. We told them that as a social services trust, we have options - we could offer them residential or social work places. However, they did not want that. It was practically impossible to find foster placements for them, so we decided that we had to come up with our own scheme - a supported lodgings scheme. We advertised in local papers; we recruited several people, checked their credentials and trained them to provide accommodation for young people in their own homes and communities. This is not rocket science; it is a simple idea about keeping young people in their communities and placing them with families where there is care and support. It is not the same as fostering. Young people can learn the skills that will enable them to live independently.

386.

Mr McGrath: The document sets out the wider supporting people schemes. There are certain key words: social inclusion, vulnerability and flexibility. Our model is flexible, and we are finding that other trusts are increasingly expressing interest.

387.

When we first set up the scheme, we looked at models in England. The article from 'The Guardian' in our submission is on a project called the Merseyside accommodation project, which is similar to ours. That project started with five providers eight or nine years ago, and it now has 150 providers as well as various teams.

388.

Our scheme is still on a small scale; we have six providers who live in their own homes. There are two in the Portadown area, two in Lurgan, one in Tandragee and another near Moira. The scheme has an urban/rural dimension. Costs are low because the scheme uses people's own homes. Young people usually present from social services or Housing Executive out-of-hours service, or have been kicked out of their homes. Increasingly I receive enquiries from young care leavers, and 'The Guardian' article talks about their vulnerability and the fact that they must be prepared for life skills.

389.

The project is like a bridging scheme; we have an 18-month period in which young people have an opportunity to develop life skills and become independent. They will have bricks and mortar around them and a roof over their heads - but the support side is as real as the bricks and mortar. Many supporting people initiatives are becoming available and we have made submissions to them about our young people's vulnerabilities.

390.

The issue is tied in with statutory legislation, and in the document, under the heading 'Legislation' you will see the relevant articles in Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995. In the mid-to-late 1990s the Simon Community researched the matter and that led to the establishment of a working group.

391.

Under the heading 'Background' you will see a diagram showing two red circles with a grey section between. We have identified a small but significant number of young people who are in need, who are vulnerable and who are homeless. Ten young people have come through the scheme since it started in September 1999.

392.

A young person currently with us came from a young offenders' centre. He was heavily involved with the Probation Service and was known to the police. He has been in our supported lodging scheme since June 2001. When he came out of the young offenders'centre all the agencies involved were pessimistic about the viability of his remaining in the community. They all recognised that, had he been placed in a flat in the Craigavon/Portadown area, there would have been a strong likelihood that he would have returned to offending behaviour or attracting a certain type of person.

393.

The young man is now living with a Lough Neagh fishing family in a rural area just outside Lurgan. He is learning nursery gardening on a scheme called 'Give and Take'. His ambitions are to apply for his own accommodation by the end of 2002. That gives you some insight into the type of young person currently availing of our service.

394.

Tomorrow night I shall place a young girl from foster care who wishes to get a job in the Portadown area. I have a placement for her in Tandragee. Another young lad is currently on a training course in Lisnevin. Last weekend we conducted an introductory phase-in programme for him. He went to stay overnight with providers just off the Garvaghy Road in Portadown. It is obviously a cross-community initiative. Its beauty lies in its flexibility regarding urban and rural elements.

395.

A great deal of groundwork went into starting up the scheme. Steve Maloney, who runs the Liverpool scheme, told me that his team had encountered similar bureaucratic difficulties at the outset of their project. They now have 150 providers. Our scheme has potential, and following recommendations we are negotiating with the Housing Executive to talk to a voluntary provider.

396.

The Linen Court hostel is in Armagh and we are currently setting up protocols with them. The beauty of that partnership is that it will give us an emergency response or out-of-hours service for the social services and Housing Executive. For example, if a young person presents himself as homeless, Linen Court will give us the option of placing him in a room there while we initiate a matching process.

397.

I usually discuss the scheme with the young person involved and we would have an introductory visit to the providers. There is no obligation on either party, and we have a cup of tea and a chat. If people are interested, and the green light is given, we seal a contract with the young person, with agreements drawn up to cover such day-to-day matters as visitors and staying-out arrangements. Young people sign up to that, and it is very much a matter of empowering them and giving them responsibility.

398.

In most cases, application for funding is made through the transitional housing benefit system. Where a young person has previously been known to a trust, it will help initially to meet some of the costs. The bottom line is that we encourage all young people to be involved in employment training schemes.

399.

The sums of money involved are minimal. For example, one young person who is with us at the moment is on £38 per week, which is not a great deal. I am not trying to be flippant, but I have brought some items along to give the Committee an idea of the harsh realities some people are facing. This is a tin of Tesco's own brand beans, which costs nine pence. Young people ask me how they can live on £32 per week. I literally get down to the basics of telling them to go to shops and look for the "buy one, get one free" labels, or to go to shops where everything costs one pound. Such is the reality for young people. I brought these items along to press home to the Committee the budgeting situation of these young people.

400.

Support can take a very pragmatic form. Young people will ask basic questions such as where the local office of the Housing Executive is. The Committee will appreciate that we are dealing with young people all the time. We call them "vulnerable", a word one might describe as a throwaway word, but the vulnerability of the ten young people about whom I am talking ranges from living in the community under paramilitary threat to the breakdown of a dysfunctional family, abuse and isolation.

401.

The beauty of the scheme is that providers are vetted, trained, and receive on-going support. I carry out an initial placement meeting, and every quarter I have a review in which the young person, the provider, and myself sit down together. Each young person has a support worker, which is also an important dimension to the scheme. If one is not available through the Probation Service or social services for the scheme run by Mr White, he can allocate a colleague of mine to act as support, and that person is there for the young person throughout the process.

402.

As regards making links with the community; as the young person is there to get training and employment they are given some time to settle in. We talk to them about the actual supports they identify for themselves and the people around them. It is very much a bridging process, and the length of time young people stay with providers has varied. The longest involves a young girl who stayed for 15 months. She took up hairdressing, and as the provider was a hairdresser, there were a lot of fringe benefits. She now has a flat in Lurgan, and has a befriending situation with the provider, which is another off-spin of the scheme that we had not thought of originally.

403.

Mr White: There are many hidden benefits. Single parents apply to be providers, and there is nowhere better to place a young 16- or 17-year old girl than with a mother who is also a single parent. She is living with a girl who has a baby, and she can appreciate that it is all about how this woman survives while caring for a baby. It is about learning the things that Mr McGrath talked about. For example, you cannot turn your music up full blast because the neighbours will complain, or ignore the brown envelopes coming through your door every morning - you may hate them but you have to do something about them. You will never starve if you have tins of beans costing nine pence.

404.

These are the real lessons. We are not taking young people and putting them into large hostels, where perhaps they may feed off each other's vulnerabilities. We are keeping them in the community, and providing people in the community who are providers with financial assistance, which will improve everybody's lot. Young people do not have to be excluded from their community - a person in Lisnaskea can get accommodation just as quickly as a person in inner city Belfast. Those are some of the benefits.

405.

The Acting Chairperson: The scheme is very interesting. It addresses the problem we have been advised of through other presentations and available evidence about young people being left without any support. During the support stage of placing the young person with a provider the decision as to when they would be ready to move on must be an important one. How much help and advice do they get with that decision? When they move on and are on their own, what kind of follow up support is there? You hinted at it in your evidence, but I want you to draw that out a bit more if you can.

406.

Have you had difficulty in getting providers? In your written and oral evidence you said that you have people who will follow up and visit, and that seems to be almost on an on-demand or when needed basis - those where the type of phrases you used. Is it sufficient to do it that way, or is there another way? For example, if someone is placed with a provider and it is not working, how do you deal with that?

407.

Mr McGrath: We have had situations where young people have had to move on from one provider to another, or have opted to move back into a hostel. People will understand our problems given our location - the Portadown/Lurgan area. I was approached yesterday about a young man currently living in Portadown with his sister who has a baby. He can only stay there temporarily. He has been advised he should not stay in the Portadown area at the moment. He will talk to me by the end of the week about the possibility of moving into supported lodgings. This week I will talk to a provider in Lurgan to see if there is a possibility of moving him there. The matter involves sectarian problems - the man should not be seen in Portadown at the moment.

408.

I am overall co-ordinator of the scheme. Initially, I give my support to the provider and to maintaining the placement. We are keen that each young person referred to us has a social worker or statutory agent. In the past, we have appointed one of our colleagues from the young persons' project to act as a support worker. For example, one of my colleagues acted as the support worker for the young girl I mentioned earlier who was a hairdresser - she was moved to a flat in Lurgan. My colleague did the follow-up work which involved checking how the girl settled into the new accommodation. As far as I can remember, my colleague stayed with the girl for a further four months until the girl herself said that she did not need the same level of support.

409.

In my submission to the people who provide support services I proposed that a support worker post be created. Support workers could co-ordinate the work that I do with Linen Court. That work involves assessing young people referred to us at crisis stage. Support workers could continue to support that person during their placement and for a period following it. We do not forget about young people who have gone off the edge - we provide on-going support.

410.

Mr White: We do not withdraw services. Young people receive the support of the scheme for as long as they feel that they need it. Mr McGrath has a dual role in that he co-ordinates the scheme and gives support to providers. If no social worker or field worker is available to support the young person, the scheme will provide a worker for their needs. I might accept certain things in my house that you might not accept in yours, which is why we draw up a contract with the young person - there are no surprises. Both parties have expectations. If there are any problems, we get together as quickly as possible and talk them through. It may be that the issues can be resolved. However, even if they cannot be resolved we do not walk away from them - there are regular reviews. The young person will continue to receive support throughout the process.

411.

To be fair, this is only a pilot scheme. It has worked for young people and for us. We cannot say with any authority how it would work if we had 100 providers. To date, it has worked well for everyone concerned. It is not a panacea for homelessness - it is simply another option for young people in our communities.

412.

The Acting Chairperson: Are legislative or financial changes required to reduce the overall level of homelessness? You have obviously encountered such matters in preparing your project. Do you have any recommendations about how to improve homelessness in general?

413.

Mr White: First, closer liaison between depart­ments is required. Better communication is needed between social services and local district housing offices. A pass-the-parcel syndrome exists there. One organisation will quote the other's legislation and claim that the problem is the other department's responsibility. Young people end up as a ball being thrown from one department to the other. It is also important to recognise that the solution to the problem that these young people face is not just in bricks and mortar - they are vulnerable people. When young people present as homeless their vulnerability should be assessed. Furthermore, people in our society should not have to try to live on £32 a week in flats without furniture and so on. We must address these issues.

414.

Mr McGrath: When young people leave care and go to various agencies - the new jargon for which is "pathway planning" - they get lost in the system and are overwhelmed by the Social Security Agency and the Housing Executive. People have asked me where the local offices of the Housing Executive and the Social Security Agency are - the questions are that basic.

415.

We need co-ordination on the ground and specifically identified people who can help. In the past, we have had identified specific workers - for example, there is a very helpful homelessness officer in our local housing authority area. There are now people working in the voluntary sector, such as those in Linen Court hostel, and we can now give young people the name of a key worker there. The idea is that agencies will begin to think along the lines of the supported lodgings model, where there is an identified worker to whom a young person can talk. A pilot exercise was put in place in the Social Security Office in Dungannon so that young people were not being swamped by bureaucracy.

416.

The people in Liverpool that I have talked to say much the same thing - they highlighted the need for young people to have an identified key support worker. There may not be the luxury of one worker for each young person - one worker may be assigned to seven or more young people, but that is better than not having a worker at all.

417.

Since I became involved in this scheme, one of the most satisfying things is the potential for good partnership working. Without being involved in the scheme, I would never have known the workings of the Housing Executive or what it was about. Our document contains a diagram of two donkeys; one representing the Housing Executive, the other representing social services. It illustrates the misconceptions that existed and how we did not fully understand each other's roles. The scheme has been a learning curve for me. There is nothing more satisfying than being able to tell a young person that they can get help if they ring Paula in the Housing Executive in Lurgan or Donna in Portadown - it introduces a human aspect. All human beings need human contact; that is how we work. However, the young people that we deal with can find it intimidating to be handed a slip of paper and told to go to the Housing Executive. I am not being judgemental; that is the finding of research and clinical testing. We must call a spade a spade and be realistic. It is a disservice to young people to patronise them by giving them a card and telling them to simply go to the Housing Executive. We must identify whom they should go to see.

418.

All agencies could improve their services. It may be a matter of something as simple as the Housing Executive or the young persons' project handing out flyers in the local youth club that let young people know what they do. Departments and agencies have much to do on the PR front and in thinking of creative ways to access vulnerable groups. This model does not just apply to young people - it could be replicated for use when dealing with the elderly, those with learning needs and those in the mental health field.

419.

The Acting Chairperson: Is the definition of homelessness generally used by the Housing Executive adequate, and, if not, what definition might be more appropriate?

420.

Mr White: It is not really about homelessness - it is about vulnerability. We must examine the needs of the vulnerable in our society. We come from Craigavon, where there are many estates full of empty houses. For us, the issue is not about putting a roof over somebody's head - we could get those young people housed tomorrow morning. The issue is about what happens when those young people - 16- and 17-year-olds and so on - are placed in a house on their own.

421.

I would not have survived living in the community on my own at that age, and I am sure that most people sitting around this table would not have either. We must move away from the idea that this issue is about bricks and mortar; it is the support that is important. We must have a way of supporting those young people so that when they get accommodation we do not simply give them a front door key but also give them a package to keep them there.

422.

Mr McGrath: The Housing Executive and First Key are holding a seminar on the 7 March on young care leavers. It could be argued that, when young people leave care, social services have a responsibility to provide residential or foster care. However, young people are telling us that after having been in the care system for three or four years, they now want to leave it. Therefore, they have options and places to go, but our point is that, given their vulnerabilities, those young people will not survive once they come into the community. This model is a way of bridging that gap.

423.

Mr White: If money is available, it should not be spent on building more hostels, rather it should be put back into the communities. The young people described in this model do not have to leave their communities - for example, Mrs Murphy up the road can take care of a young person. Therefore, we do not need more hostels.

424.

The Acting Chairperson: Thank you very much. Your contribution has been very valuable.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 21 February 2002

Members present:

Mr ONeill (Acting Chairperson)

Sir John Gorman

Mr Hamilton

Mr B Hutchinson

Mr G Kelly

Mr M Robinson

Mr Tierney

Witnesses:

Mr P McIntyre                        )

Mr C McCaughley                        )                        The Housing Executive

Mr S Graham                        )

471.

The Acting Chairperson: I should like to welcome you. May the Committee hear your presentation?

472.

Mr McIntyre: Thank you. I should like to introduce my colleagues: Colm McCaughley, the director of client services in the Housing Executive, and Stephen Graham, who is assistant director of client services. He is responsible for the Executive's homelessness policies.

473.

I should like to thank the Committee for inviting the Housing Executive to give evidence on this topical subject. The Housing Executive is working on the matter, as it issued a consultation document in September 2001 that considered developing a new approach to delivering homelessness services.

474.

Page 2 of our 'Presentation to Social Development Committee: Inquiry into Homelessness' sets our agenda. It gives a few facts about homelessness; why and how we carried out the review; what our main findings and recommendations are; and what we learnt from consultation. That will interest the Committee, as the consultation period closed at the end of December.

475.

The document also discusses developments in homelessness in Scotland, Wales, England and the Republic of Ireland. I believe that representatives of the Chartered Institute of Housing have spoken to the Committee on these matters. I shall also speak about the cost of implementing the strategy. We also want to set out the links to the Supporting People reform, which the Committee has been studying. Primarily, this concerns considering the homelessness provisions in the Housing Bill. We want to share our views on that.

476.

Page 3 of our presentation covers the facts. Until 1988 there was no statutory duty to tackle homelessness in Northern Ireland. The Housing Executive provided permanent accommodation, and health and social services provided temporary accommodation. It is worth noting that there were then only two statutory hostels, and limited voluntary sector provision. A great deal has been done since that duty was passed to the Housing Executive.

477.

There is a legislative test that an applicant must satisfy before being declared homeless. Under the legislation one must be homeless, be in one of the priority groups and be unintentionally homeless. The priority groups tend to be those with dependent children or who are vulnerable due to age, disability or mental illness. Under the legislation the Housing Executive has several duties - to inquire into cases, to provide temporary and permanent accommodation, to give written notification of decisions, to protect property and to provide advice and assistance.

478.

Page 4 lists the number of people presenting as homeless each year from 1991-1992 until 2000-2001 and the number of people who are described in the document as full duty applicants (FDA) - that is, people who have been accepted as homeless under the legislation. For some time that figure was between 10,000 and 11,000. There has been a big increase in the year ending March 2001, and that increase has continued during the past nine months. That is partly due to two reasons, one of which is the introduction of the common selection scheme. Under that scheme we test everybody for homelessness as part of the assessment process. We estimate that before the introduction of the common selection scheme, about 1,000 single people would not have presented as homeless. We are now catching them under the assessment procedures and the selection scheme. Last year was also peculiar because of the many who were made homeless after the Loyalist feud.

479.

The second of those charts looks at the types of households that presented over 1991-92, 1995-96 and 2000-01. It is predominantly singles and families. Singles are increasing due to household fragmentation, divorce and separation. However, it does not follow that because more singles are presenting as homeless they are necessarily being accepted as such.

480.

Several reasons for people presenting should be mentioned. More people are leaving tenancies in the private rented sector because that sector is growing significantly. More people are presenting because of a breakdown in sharing arrangements or in relationships and because of domestic violence. Intimidation is also a factor.

481.

The figures show that of households that presented as homeless during those three years, 50% of them were accepted as homeless under the legislation. That is because of the priority need criteria - that there are dependent children and so forth. Only 30% of single people who present as homeless meet the statutory requirement and pass the test.

482.

Page 8 describes the arrangements for dealing with the homeless.

483.

As I said, that function was transferred to the Housing Executive in 1988. At that time it had two statutory hostels and no funding. Now there are about 22 statutory hostels and significant voluntary provision, which is partly funded by the Housing Executive.

484.

The Housing Executive picks up on planning for homelessness through the annual review of the housing market. The district housing plan sets out the levels of home­lessness for each district council area, and we carry out an annual review of temporary accommodation. The Housing Executive has a preventative role, but one of the major points in the strategy is that it does not do enough. It must do more work with agencies to prevent homeless­ness. It provides advice, as do several agencies, such as the Housing Rights Service and the Law Centre (NI). One of the conclusions of the strategy that has been issued for consultation is that the Housing Executive must do more work in that field.

485.

Secondly, The Housing Executive's reception service is a two-stop shop. If a person becomes homeless outside its office hours, he or she can approach health and social services. Those who become homeless during the Housing Executive's office hours must come to it.

486.

The Housing Executive is legally required to make assessments and to carry out inquiries. Other agencies also have a key role in helping it to make those inquiries to assess a person's status as homeless. The Housing Executive provides temporary accommo­dation. It is worth noting that only 20% of the families that come to us as homeless require temporary accommo­dation. The average stay in a hostel varies significantly across the Province, but it is approx­imately 113 days before the Housing Executive can make an offer of permanent accommodation. That figure can be higher in some areas and much lower in others.

487.

The Housing Executive has 22 statutory hostels; the voluntary sector agencies have about 1,500 bed spaces. The Housing Executive also uses private sector accommodation, such as bed-and-breakfast accommo­dation and private rentals. Its private sector bed bureau lists about 700 bed spaces.

488.

The Housing Executive is required to provide permanent housing, and the speed with which it addresses that varies from one part of the Province to the next. It provides assistance with transport and furniture removal. There is an internal appeals system. The Housing Ex­ecutive carried out a survey as part of the preparation for the homelessness strategy, and it discovered that many of the homeless people who come to it are unaware of the right of appeal. That is an issue that we must address.

489.

Our reasons for carrying out the review are in the diagram on page 9. Providing someone with a permanent house is not the whole answer. We have learnt that lesson in Northern Ireland, but it is also evident in the strategies that are emerging elsewhere. The way in which we tackle homelessness must focus primarily on preventing it; the role of education, advice and advocacy must be assessed.

490.

Those going into temporary accommodation require support. They often require preparation before they can take up a permanent tenancy, and many people are so vulnerable that they require support while in a tenancy. That was brought home to me when I visited a temporary hostel in Derry. The man who ran it told me that about 50% of the single young men who passed through it and who got a permanent tenancy from the Housing Executive or a housing association arrived back at the hostel because they were unable to support a tenancy. That is the sort of message that we are trying to get across in the review.

491.

Page 10 details how we conducted the review. It is worth pointing out that the review was conducted with representatives from the health and social services and from the voluntary sector agencies that work with the homeless. Undoubtedly there will be some reshaping of that strategy based on the consultation and on the Committee's report. However, the steering group consisted of representatives of those organisations and there was widespread consultation and focus group activity, which involved those people who are dealing with homeless­ness in Northern Ireland.

492.

A Housing Executive survey found that users were very satisfied with its homelessness service. The weaknesses were in the system of appeals, in hostels being located far from people's home districts and in the services provided by bed-and-breakfast establishments.

493.

The contact that people have while they are in hostels, waiting to be rehoused by the Housing Executive, is not as frequent or as good as it should be. The consultation period ended on 31 December 2001, and I shall inform the Committee of our report's main findings and recommendations.

494.

Great Britain's attitude towards homelessness is changing. New legislation on duties and rights is being introduced, and that means a return to the kind of legislation that exists in Northern Ireland. For example, in Northern Ireland we have always had a duty to provide permanent accommodation, but that had been changed in England and Wales. The new legislation returns that duty to local authorities. There is also considerable new investment to reduce sleeping rough and the use of bed-and-breakfast accommodation.

495.

An important discovery was that homelessness in Northern Ireland is higher than in England. In Northern Ireland 1·1% of households are accepted as homeless, compared to 0·5% in England. One reason for that is Northern Ireland's broader legislation, which accepts more people as homeless, and because of the common selection scheme we are catching more people.

496.

There are areas of high housing stress, where we find it difficult to provide permanent housing quickly. Finding temporary accommodation is a problem, par­ticularly in Belfast, because many people who have been in temporary accommodation for a long time are unlikely to move into permanent accommodation. They have become institutionalised and vulnerable to some extent, and we must address that issue.

497.

We also rely too much on bed-and-breakfast accommodation, which is more expensive and less satisfactory; there will, however, always be a need for it. For example, not every town in the Province has the demand for a new hostel; therefore bed and breakfast might be the solution for a homeless family that wants to stay in its home town. However, our intention is to reduce reliance on bed and breakfast.

498.

We carried out a survey and discovered that approximately 25% of single people in hostels require support, for addiction or vulnerability for example.

499.

We do not know much about repeat homeless­ness, because we do not track it. However, everybody to whom we spoke, particularly people who work in the voluntary sector, said that there is a great deal of repeat homelessness, which tells us that bricks and mortar are not the whole answer and that more support is needed.

500.

The standard of temporary accommodation varies, ranging from bed and breakfast to some very old hostels, for example, the 'Morning Star' hostel, where a tragic event happened last week. That raised several issues. We can provide the Committee with updated information. There are also new, more modern hostels. However, we must address operational issues as well as manage­ment and information.

501.

The report lists the requirements for a strategy to reduce homelessness; it also includes several recom­mendations. We must make a statement of direction containing proposals on how to tackle homelessness. The report deals with the timely provision of permanent housing as well as advice and assistance on suitable temporary accommodation. It is about involving users in the planning of the service, minimising bed-and-breakfast use, supporting vulnerable people and working with many others as well as introducing performance standards. Our intention is that each district office should produce a local plan as part of a district housing plan to address homelessness. We also intend to form local forums to help the Housing Executive to deliver that plan.

502.

We are co-operating with the Probation Board on its accommodation strategy, which has recently been issued for consultation.

503.

The correct implementation of Supporting People is another important point.

504.

The Supporting People programme will affect single parents, young people, people leaving care, people with mental illnesses and matters of physical disability and domestic violence. We aim at reducing reliance on bed and breakfast by 50% in the next few years and we shall do that by producing 250 new temporary accommodation units. Based on research that we intend to carry out, we also aim at improving support arrangements by providing new supported units for long-term hostel residents who view those hostels as their home. However, hostel accommodation is not suitable for those with long-term accommodation needs.

505.

We want to expand the outreach and support services that we have piloted. We must provide for areas of exceptional need, particularly those involving sex offenders, who are always difficult to place and rehouse. Many people in hostels have physical disabilities and we simply do not have and cannot produce the type of accommodation that is needed, so we must acquire housing that can meet their needs. We also want to increase the housing output levels in hot spots throughout the Province - and by that I mean areas where it is difficult to rehouse people quickly.

506.

Some of the other recommendations deal with setting standards for the temporary accommodation that we provide and with inspecting and enforcing those regulations. We must improve our prevention, information and advice services. For example, one of the issues that we have been working on with the Simon Community is the early introduction of advice on homelessness to the school curriculum as part of the prevention model. We have also examined advocacy for tenants in the private rented sector.

507.

As always, we must examine how well we work with the health and social services and with the voluntary sector in delivering the service. Several operational recommendations are listed on page 16. We propose that the Housing Executive become the one-stop shop for anybody who reports as homeless; in other words, those who declare themselves homeless outside office hours will no longer have to report to health and social services workers.

508.

We must examine the appeals system, which is a little complicated. There is some evidence, which the Committee may have already received, that deals with whether there ought to be independent appeals, and that is something that we must consider. We also want to consider how we support and maintain contact with people who have been in temporary accommodation for a long time.

509.

Page 17 lists the consultations that we have carried out and the 41 written responses that we received. If the Committee wishes, we can send more detailed information on that in writing before it concludes its discussion on this matter. Many of the groups who responded said that the strategy does not adequately deal with the prevention of homelessness, so we must re-examine that. It has been suggested in several submissions that those whose rights are not featured in Northern Ireland legislation - 16- and 17-year-olds, people coming out of institutions or people who are homeless because of domestic violence - should have their rights enshrined in the legislation. Such groups do not feature in the primary legislation in Northern Ireland, but it is our practice to treat them as vulnerable when we assess people for homelessness. The Housing Executive would have no difficulty with any such change in legislation because it would be no more reflective of our practice than the legislation is.

510.

Our document contains much about how we work with other agencies. The independent appeals issue must be examined, as must the fact that homeless­ness is also linked to house sales, arrears and community safety.

511.

The strategy must be developed into homeless action plans, and our intention is to do that at district council level. Our next step, now that we have completed our consultation, is to present our findings to the board. We intend to await the outcome of the Committee's inquiry before we finalise our report and we shall then develop an implementation plan. In the meantime, we shall do necessary work, including research into long-term hostel residence. We must identify exactly who long-term hostel residents are, how many of them there are, and how their problems can be solved.

512.

The appeals system should be examined. We shall engage with some of those involved in homeless­ness and consider the use of technology in booking hostel accommodation.

513.

On pages 19 to 22, representatives of the Chartered Institute of Housing outlined homelessness legislation in other parts of the United Kingdom and in the Republic of Ireland. Scotland set up a task force, and the duties and rights of homelessness will be extended. Prevention and advice are emphasised, together with the requirement to develop a homelessness strategy, and it is intended to help those who sleep rough.

514.

Wales has a homelessness commission; rights and duties have been extended to those groups who lost them under the Conservative Government's legislation changes. The question of homelessness strategies is wider than just providing accommodation and working with various bodies.

515.

Perhaps the Chartered Institute of Housing informed the Committee of the progress of the Homes Bill in Westminster. The focus in England is on sleeping rough and more recently on a reduction in bed-and-breakfast accommodation. At the moment, there is consultation on a document dealing with proposals for a national homelessness strategy.

516.

Page 22 shows the Republic of Ireland's 'Homeless­ness - An Integrated Strategy 2000'. Interestingly, that placed statutory responsibility for homelessness on the housing and health authorities and not on the housing authority alone. Developments in the Republic are fairly recent, and there is a clear recognition that homelessness concerns more than a house. Strategies are necessary to tackle and prevent it, and organisations must work together.

517.

Approximately £5 million per annum is spent on providing new hostels, and recurring expenditure of approximately £18 million per annum supports homeless people on two fronts. First, housing benefit pays support charges for hostel residents; secondly, a special needs management allowance also passes to hostels. Those make up approximately £12 million of the £18 million.

518.

One correction must be made. The additional cost of implementing the review is not £20 million per annum; it is a one-off amount of £20·6 million of capital investment over several years for new hostel provision and for leasing from the private sector. The new hostel provision is also necessary to deal with the silting up of hostel space in Belfast. An estimated £3 million per annum is required to develop, with the voluntary sector, the support services needed to prevent homelessness in the first instance and for help in maintaining a tenancy once one is agreed.

519.

The Committee will find the 'Financial Linkages to Supporting People' on page 24; the presentation also lists 'Housing Benefit (Rent and Support Services)' and 'NIHE support to Voluntary Sector'. There will be two pots of money after November 2003: housing benefit will cover rental costs, and the Supporting People Fund will meet all the support costs covered at present by the sources set out on the left hand side of the diagram.

520.

The provisions in the Housing Bill address some technical issues. For example, someone who had a mansion elsewhere in the United Kingdom could still apply for homeless status in Northern Ireland. There is provision to close that loophole. Another is that anyone who has been evicted for antisocial behaviour will not be entitled to advice and assistance under the homeless­ness legislation.

521.

Legislative provision in Northern Ireland is generous compared to that of Great Britain. Great Britain's legislation is intended to catch up with that of Northern Ireland and to reinstate its own - as it stood before the changes made to it by the Conservative Government. The Housing Executive believes that there may be merit in examining the statutory duties of other agencies in addressing homelessness, particularly health and social services. Unless they play a full role, tackling homelessness will be very difficult.

522.

The Housing Executive, which has had respon­sibility for homelessness, has achieved much. The strategy shows that much more must be done to address those problems. It is not merely a question of bricks and mortar. Service improvements can be achieved with funding. The relationship with statutory and voluntary agencies is critical. Implementing Supporting People is important to developing services to support homeless people.

523.

The Acting Chairperson: I wish to say something about the 'Morning Star'. The Committee wrote to Mr Grimes to express its sympathy and to extend its good wishes to the survivors and to thank the staff for their efforts, knowledge and the good work that they have done as volunteers. The Committee has an interest in what happened. What is the present situation?

524.

Mr Graham: Since the sad events of 12 February steps have been taken to accommodate the former residents of the 'Morning Star'. I am not sure how much people know about that. The hostel was leased to the Legion of Mary, which managed and maintained it. At the time of the event 18 men were in residence, although the hostel could take up to 30 people. Many of them had alcohol-related problems. The cause of the fire is still unknown, although forensic examinations are being made. The cost of refurbishing the existing hostel is considered by all to be unrealistic. A long-term alternative must be found.

525.

In the short term, however, most of the men are single, from west Belfast, aged between 50 and 70 and have alcohol problems. Twelve of the men were fairly well settled at the hostel. The other six tended to come and go - they stayed at other hostels or made other arrangements. The immediate accommodation needs are being met in two locations. Saint Peter's Cathedral gatehouse has been converted to accommodate 10 of the men temporarily. Social services have taken a further four into their properties on the Antrim Road. The nearby welcome centre is also being used to provide a daytime service for the men. In the immediate term, the Housing Executive will house some of the men in Carrick House, which is at Carrick Hill, where Unity Flats once stood. The immediate housing needs have, we hope, been catered for.

526.

There is an interagency agreement that the long-term provision should be a modern 40-bed hostel at John Street/Hamill Street. There was resident opposition to that in the past. However, there now seems to be agreement and there seem to be no major problems. The men will stay in the gatehouse and social services accommodation until the Ashmore Street hostel is vacated, which should be in August 2002. The men will move in there until a new hostel has been built. Ashmore Street hostel can accommodate them all. Work is due to start on the new hostel at John Street/Hamill Street in August 2002 or earlier.

527.

The Acting Chairperson: The Committee welcomes that good news.

528.

Mr B Hutchinson: I have concerns about Ashmore Street. It is not the proper location to house those people as it is in an interface area, and in August tensions will be high. That building will be attacked every night, and that should be taken into consideration. It is not good temporary accommodation. The people who live there now are not happy about it. It is perhaps the wrong location due to the sectarian violence in the area.

529.

Mr McIntyre: The Housing Executive has improved protection around the hostel as a result of an incident last summer. It is not the ideal location, but there is a strong preference among the men to remain together as they have been together for a long time. It is at present our only option, but I acknowledge your point that it is not the ideal location for a hostel.

530.

The Acting Chairperson: It is good news to hear that that new provision will be made.

531.

Mr Tierney: It is also good news to hear that residents have accepted it. I was aware that they were not keen at the beginning. Could they be moved before August, or is the arrangement permanent?

532.

Mr McIntyre: The intention is for the men to be in the new John Street/Hamill Street hostel by August 2003. The Legion of Mary provides the hostel, but it is funded partly from compensation that the Housing Executive is due to pay to it because we vested the property some years ago. The Legion of Mary also makes a voluntary contribution to it, and it is keen to move as quickly as possible. We are working closely with the local Legion of Mary.

533.

The Acting Chairperson: One issue that arose in several submissions on after-hours arrangements was that there seemed to be a breakdown in communi­cation between the Housing Executive and social services. You suggested in your recommendations that you would address that. How do you propose to do that?

534.

Mr Tierney: Can you expand on what you mean by the Housing Executive being a one-stop shop?

535.

Mr McIntyre: The service of reporting as homeless outside office hours will be run entirely by the Housing Executive. People do not go to social services at any day time to report as homeless - they report to the Housing Executive.

536.

Mr McCaughley: We shall revamp our emergency services to handle repairs and homelessness. Local officers will be on emergency standby. If they are required to visit a homeless person, that will be backed up by a booking system that will find that person a hostel or bed-and-breakfast accommodation after hours. The exception would be that occasionally we might need to call on social services to help us in large-scale emergencies such as the Morning Star fire or other disasters. Aside from that, social services would effectively disengage.

537.

The Acting Chairperson: The Housing Exec­utive's professionalism was of one type and the social services' professionalism was of another, and the marriage of the two was important. Can the Housing Executive's emergency service deal with applicants with drug and alcohol problems?

538.

Mr McCaughley: The social services provision is nothing more than an accommodation booking system, and we shall replace that with our own staff. It will then not matter whether one calls at 9am or at 8pm. In exceptional circumstances, our emergency service would have to re-engage with social services. However, that would be the exception rather than the rule.

539.

The Acting Chairperson: I am sure that social services regard their contribution as rather more than that of a booking agency.

540.

Mr McCaughley: I believe that the social services would agree that there should be a single service that is operated by the Housing Executive.

541.

Mr Tierney: I agree with the Acting Chairperson that that is not what social services are telling us. The fact that it is an after-hours service means that it is used in emergencies. The applicant may have to be put into temporary accommodation, and the Housing Executive becomes involved afterwards. Even if Housing Executive staff were appropriately trained, most applicants would still have to apply to social services.

542.

Mr McIntyre: I am sure that that will sometimes be the case. Our consultation found that the present arrangements, whereby applicants go to one organisation or another depending on the time of day, were unacceptable. The consultation found that there should be one point of contact for applicants.

543.

The matter of when social services are called upon to deal with someone who has reported to the Housing Executive should be considered. We understand that they must be called upon in certain cases.

544.

Sir John Gorman: Paragraph 2.10 of your 'Submission to the Social Development Statutory Com­mittee on Homelessness in Northern Ireland' states that

"There was strong consensus that increasing the supply of affordable housing was key to tackling homelessness in high demand areas."

545.

Mr Kieran Walsh of the Chartered Institute of Housing in Northern Ireland emphasised, rather vehemently, that there was a real need for affordable housing. How is that being produced? Is the supply adequate? Could the Bill not introduce that as a revolutionary measure? I have an interest in such Bills, and, frankly, this one is merely indifferent tinkering. It contains nothing radical.

546.

Mr McIntyre: The document from which you quote was produced by the Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions. It is the Govern­ment's intention to develop a national homelessness strategy for England and Wales. It says that part of the answer is to increase the supply of new housing; we say the same. The supply of new housing here must be increased, especially in hot spots. I do not wish to create the impression that it is an issue throughout the Province. There are, however, several areas that do not have sufficient new houses for people to be rehoused quickly.

547.

Sir John Gorman: You said that we need 1,500 houses.

548.

Mr McIntyre: Yes, we need 1,500. My under­standing is that this year's programme will produce around 1,200 new units. Last year, the target was around the same, as was output. Decisions must be made on what priority should be awarded to that as opposed, for example, to putting it into grants for the private sector.

549.

Our strategy's answer is that there is a need for new housing in areas where people cannot be rehoused within a reasonable period. We endeavour to rehouse homeless people within three months. The Housing Executive requires the provision of the Bill because for five years it has had pieces of legislation, some of which I would accept are not significant. Nevertheless, we do require important sections that relate to anti-social behaviour and changes to grants et cetera. Our view is that the homelessness section of the Bill is fairly technical and it simply tidies up some aspects.

550.

The constant issue is where will the money be found to address all that? There has been some debate about access to private money, which may be an answer.

551.

The Acting Chairperson: To follow up Sir John's argument, if legislation is put in place now, presumably it will be in operation for a considerable time, so we need to get it correct.

552.

Mr McIntyre: That is correct.

553.

The Acting Chairperson: The legislation is not strong on the issue of homelessness.

554.

Mr McIntyre: No doubt you will make that view known during the consultation period on the Bill.

555.

Sir John Gorman: That is very diplomatic.

556.

Mr B Hutchinson: Are you satisfied that that legislative test of homelessness allows you to tackle the problem effectively? We have been advised that 1,267 people presented themselves as homeless last year. Witnesses tell us that that is not the whole story, that there are people who can be termed as the "hidden homeless". Perhaps you would give the Committee the Housing Executive's view on that? The organisations that have given evidence seem to have concentrated on 16-to 17-year-olds. However, page 5 of the Housing Executive's presentation to the Committee, which details your 2000-01 figures, shows that the problem of homelessness among 16- to 17-year-olds has decreased recently. Many witnesses stated that the problem for 16-to 17-year-olds who presented as homeless was not about providing houses, but about having them stay in particular types of accommodation.

557.

Mr McIntyre: Our judgement is that the legislative test allows the system to identify those who are homeless and require to be housed. That legislative test and the Housing Executive's application of it has been considered by judicial review many times and, in the majority of cases, the Housing Executive has almost always successfully defended its line when it held the view that an applicant had not satisfied the test.

558.

We hear about the issue of the "hidden homeless" as there is a view in the voluntary sector that anyone who lives in unsuitable accommodation should, by definition, be considered homeless. Legislation does not allow that interpretation, so that may be one aspect of "hidden homelessness". The Simon Community would hold that view, and I would not necessarily dispute it. However, households that live in such accommodation would not satisfy the legislative test of homelessness.

559.

There are several direct access hostels in and around the city that residents use without registering as homeless. I suspect that many of those people who were in the Morning Star hostel had never registered with the Housing Executive as homeless because that is their style of life. That is another aspect of "hidden homeless­ness". There is also an issue as to how many people sleep rough. However, we probably have that problem largely under control on account of the Lee Hestia hostel in Brunswick Street. However, we intend to revisit the issue next year. We are in regular contact with the police and others as to the levels of rough sleeping of which we are unaware. The common selection scheme works because we assess more people who are home­less, or potentially homeless, than we did under the old scheme. Therefore, we are to some extent addressing the issue of the "hidden homeless".

560.

The point about 16- and 17-year-olds was made because Northern Ireland legislation does not specify the homeless as a group with statutory rights to protection. People may have focused on the 16- and 17-year-olds because they want that written into the legislation. In practice, we treat them as vulnerable and they will be assessed as homeless, and those interested groups use that as an example to suggest how the legislation could be improved.

561.

Mr B Hutchinson: Do you not think that the number of homeless people is increasing? Do your figures suggest that you are on top of that situation? Are the numbers of homeless 16- and 17-year- olds decreasing?

562.

Mr McCaughley: Yes, that is the case when compared with other categories of householder. We support the voluntary sector, and we must address the fact that either those kids leave care or we must look at those numbers. We suspect, through anecdotal evidence, that some drift through hostels without coming near the Housing Executive or any other service except through the voluntary sector. More research will be done on that, but we suspect that that will show that significant additional work must be done to support 16- to 17-year olds, especially those who have come through the care system. Besides the Housing Executive, some health boards have devised new models of provision, such as supported lodgings, to help those children who are between care and permanent housing.

563.

The numbers may not be huge, but we support the voluntary sector's view that it is a significant problem that must be addressed.

564.

Mr B Hutchinson: What do we need to do with the legislation to address that problem?

565.

Mr McCaughley: It is not a legislative issue per se - housing and health boards should work together, and some of our models should be more innovative.

566.

Mr B Hutchinson: The problem with that is that people have said that certain areas are OK but others are not. In other words, no equality exists as it depends on how the people interpret the legislation. There is nothing in the legislation that says that an individual who lives in County Fermanagh or County Antrim will get the same service. That is why I am asking you. I understand what you are saying, and I accept that that is how you want to work. Our difficulty is that people tell us that, for example, the South Eastern Health Board may work differently from the boards in the north and west. People say that different organisations treat 16- and 17-year olds differently.

567.

Mr McIntyre: We are trying to address that through our housing and health agenda. The quality of our relationship with health trusts in the Province varies, and I suspect that what you say may be correct. As Mr McCaughley has said, the issue is not about writing legislation; it is about the local Housing Executive and the local health and social services trusts getting their act together for particular types of clientele. Some of the trusts will have different priorities for the clientele on which they want to focus. I agree with your point.

568.

Mr McCaughley: The boards that carry out service planning exercises on children who are going through the area boards also recognise that problem, and those boards want to piggyback the work of the Housing Executive. They would carry the primary responsibility, and we would support them.

569.

The Acting Chairperson: Is there a case for priority need?

570.

Mr McIntyre: Under the homelessness legislation - although it is not written in to it - we treat those young people as vulnerable. The point has been made several times in presentations that that should be contained in the legislation. The Housing Executive has no difficulty with that. In practice, young people are treated as priority need when we conducted our assessment on vulnerability.

571.

Mr Tierney: That dos not cater for all 16- and 17-year-olds. Perhaps because of domestic problems, young people leaving home may not wish to address why they have left home, and if they present themselves to the Housing Executive, they do not report those circumstances. They are not seen to be priority need cases so are classed as intentionally homeless. Is that correct?

572.

Mr McIntyre: That could be the case.

573.

Mr Tierney: Those are the hidden ones who Mr Hutchinson has said miss out. Young people who are homeless are treated as intentionally homeless, because they are not considered to be priority need cases. Do you agree that we must look at that?

574.

Mr McIntyre: That is a possible answer.

575.

Mr McCaughley: We must be careful. If every 16- or 17-year-old in Northern Ireland left home and claimed homelessness through the legislation, we would be obliged, under statute, to honour that commitment. That would be a step too far.

576.

In that situation, we would ask if we had provided enough advice and assistance to enable the voluntary sector, ourselves or someone else to pick up the immediate problems faced by that person. We do not want 16- and 17-year-olds walking the streets of Northern Ireland. That is a different issue than giving statutory force to the idea that if a child walks out of his or her parents' home tomorrow, there is a statute that entitles him or her to a permanent house.

577.

Mr McIntyre: A view exists that the existence of homelessness legislation creates a climate in which people leave home and families break up. I am not sure whether the Committee has heard that opinion from other representations, but it has been voiced to us over the years.

578.

The Acting Chairperson: That may be the type of area at which I hinted earlier when we talked about the professionalism of the two contributors. You mentioned the necessity for health and social services representatives to work in housing and the entire ambit. Issues will arise that you and your officers may have difficulty dealing with and analysing. Those issues can only be dealt with by professionals from health and social services.

579.

Mr McIntrye: We must make a distinction. The Housing Executive says that it is a one-stop shop for reporting and presenting as homeless, and we cannot assess an individual's requirements without considerable contributions from several other agencies, including health and social services professionals. I do not wish anything that we have said about a one-stop shop to undermine that.

580.

Mr McCaughley: We may not need social services between 8.00 pm and 8.00 am, but we certainly need them between 8.00 am and 6.00 pm.

581.

Mr Tierney: Do you say that decisions about the homeless should fall solely to the Housing Executive?

582.

Mr McIntyre: Statutorily, the Housing Executive is the only organisation that can make that decision under present legislation. To get the information that we require to make a decision, we frequently have to make enquiries into the individual's vulnerability. Therefore, social services have a sizeable contribution in helping us make that decision.

583.

Mr Tierney: I accept the point that you are making. However the Committee has heard people say that different agencies should be involved in making the decision. There is a difference between being involved in deciding whether a person is homeless, and the Housing Executive seeking advice from the agencies.

584.

Mr McIntyre: How would that work in practice? Would it be decided by committee or case conference? At the end of the day, a body must decide.

585.

Sir John Gorman: The Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions consultation paper, which I quoted from, has been completed, and an announcement was made in December 2001. I presume that that announcement is related to the White Paper that also appeared in December. The consultation paper contained a chapter on funding, and when you answered my previous question, you made the point that funding will be needed. How will funding be obtained to solve the problem of the inadequate number of social houses that are being built?

586.

Mr McIntyre: We must present the case, it must be argued along with numerous other cases and someone has to say that it has priority over something else. In many ways, the Committee will play a bigger role than the Housing Executive.

587.

The White Paper referred to the local authorities' borrowing powers. My understanding is that, as a result of representations that have been made to the Minister, the Department is currently looking at its im­plications for Northern Ireland. If it frees up additional money, that is excellent.

588.

Sir John Gorman: Do you agree that the Housing Executive has been very popular among lenders?

589.

Mr McIntyre: If the Housing Executive were to try to borrow money, it would have an XX credit rating.

590.

Mr B Hutchinson: What would happen to debt charges if the Housing Executive were able to borrow? The issue concerns funding. It is not about money that the Housing Executive has, it is about the money that it owes. That is crippling the organisation. It would be better to get rid of debt charges than to try to borrow.

591.

Mr McIntyre: I am straying well outside my remit.

592.

The Acting Chairperson: We are getting a little out of order here. Will you give a quick reply, nevertheless?

593.

Mr McIntyre: I can only relate what has been happening with stock transfer in England and Scotland. In Glasgow, the state tends to be writing off debt charges, but that is its solution to their problem. It is also being done because the state is changing arrangements there.

594.

The Acting Chairperson: What is your experience of dealing with homeless persons from Britain or abroad? Is any pattern developing? Are there any problems?

595.

Mr McIntyre:  A total of 97% of people who present themselves as homeless to the Housing Executive hail from Northern Ireland.

596.

The Acting Chairperson: Is that figure static?

597.

Mr McIntyre: Yes. It is a very small problem.

598.

The Acting Chairperson: Can you supply the Committee with the full results of the user survey? Has it been tested independently, and was there input from the voluntary sector?

599.

Mr McIntyre: That is included in our submission. However, if there is a problem, we can supply it to the Committee.

600.

The Acting Chairperson: You talked about the 41 submissions that you received as a result of your inquiry, and you offered those to the Committee. If the Committee could have one copy of those it could access them when putting together its recommendations.

601.

Mr McIntyre: We shall summarise those for the Committee also.

602.

The Acting Chairperson: My final question concerns Northern Ireland's having the highest incidence of homelessness. Will you provide details of the incidence per 1,000 people in the populations of England, Scotland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland? We do not request that now. Does Northern Ireland have the highest incidence of homelessness?

603.

Mr McIntyre: We do. The information is contained in the documentation, but we shall highlight it for the Committee. I do not have the figures for the Republic of Ireland. I am not sure that the information from there will be comparable. However, we shall try to obtain the information.

604.

The Acting Chairperson: That is excellent. Thank you for your time and contribution, which are significant to the inquiry.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Tuesday 26 February 2002

Members present:

Mr Cobain (Chairperson)

Ms Gildernew (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Hamilton

Mr B Hutchinson

Mr G Kelly

Mr ONeill

Mr M Robinson

Witnesses:

Ms M McNally                        )                        Director, Dungannon & District                                                             Housing Association

Mr C Williamson                        )                        Director, NI Federation of                                                     Housing Associations

Mr A Rea                        )                        Director of Housing, BIH                                                     Housing Association

605.

The Chairperson: I welcome Ms Maura McNally, Mr Alan Rea, and Mr Chris Williamson, who represent the Northern Ireland Federation of Housing Associations. Will you make your presentation, before the Committee asks some questions?

606.

Mr Williamson: Thank you for the opportunity to talk to you again. We have not overweighed you with paper, either in our submission or in the outline of the structure of our presentation, which we will distribute. My colleagues work for two housing associations, and I work for the Northern Ireland Federation of Housing Associations, the umbrella body for the 45 or so member associations in Northern Ireland. Ms McNally is the director of Dungannon & District Housing Association, a locally based association that has operated for over 30 years and has broad direct experience in dealing with homelessness, which Ms McNally will outline. Mr Rea is the director of housing at BIH Housing Association, the biggest housing association to provide rented accommodation in Northern Ireland. He has vast experience in this field, including direct and indirect provision for homeless people.

607.

I acknowledge that the Housing Executive has the statutory role in dealing with homelessness, and generally it does a good job. We commend the homeless­ness review that it carried out recently and which is still moving through the process.

608.

First, Ms McNally will outline aspects of prevention that can be enhanced, then Mr Rea will talk about the existing and proposed provision for homeless people, and I will conclude by discussing homelessness procedures. We will then answer members' questions.

609.

Ms McNally: I deal with the prevention of homelessness. We need to examine more education initiatives to increase awareness among school children and people in the private sector who provide accommo­dation. In addition, we need to carry out more research into the real cause of homelessness and repeat homelessness.

610.

Dungannon & District Housing Association examined tenancy support services and floating support a few years ago. We have a children's home based in Dungannon, but no real accommodation is available for young people leaving care, other than Housing Executive hard-to-let flats in areas that have other social needs. Therefore, in conjunction with the Simon Community and social services, we assessed the possibility of providing move-on type of accommodation, with an on-site support worker to help young people to complete forms and get settled into the community. However, that fell through because social services were unable to come up with adequate funding. Rent deposits and guarantee schemes require more work, and the Simon Community are leading that.

611.

My last point is that we should automatically accept as vulnerable any young people aged between 16 and 17 years old, but with a clause that they are disqualified if they intentionally make themselves homeless.

612.

Mr Rea: Members may already have this information, but some of it may be new. There are 40 registered housing associations, currently providing over 22,000 units of permanent accommodation. We also manage 3,000 bed spaces in hostels and shared housing units, of which around 1,000 are to alleviate homelessness. Many are jointly managed with voluntary organisations such as the Simon Community and Women's Aid, but the accommodation is provided by housing associations.

613.

In addition to the conventional direct access hostels, the movement has been at the forefront of providing new initiatives. There are four foyers in the country, which we have built. We are hoping for a review of the foyer mechanism to enable more to be built. The Department must carry out that review, and we want it to take place soon. I understand the Simon Community will give a presentation to the Committee in the future, and they will no doubt talk about their experience with Foyers.

614.

According to Housing Executive figures, housing associations accommodate 16% of all full duty applicants, or homeless people, in permanent accommodation. That will vary according to the area. Last year, 26% of BIH allocations went to homelessness people, and we continue to provide temporary and permanent accommo­dation. However, in some areas there is a high demand and low provision. We have identified a couple of reasons for that, and they will be familiar. High land values and reduced Government grant rates make it increasingly difficult for housing associations to provide affordable accommodation for those on low incomes, and that is a genuine concern for the federation. Each year, it becomes more difficult to provide affordable permanent or temporary housing, and there is a danger that we are being priced out of the market in some areas.

615.

The federation would argue that the concept of portable discounts for tenants who wish to buy their own homes should be piloted in areas where there is high demand and low turnover - areas where there are few re-lets and long waiting lists. Instead of allowing social-rented tenants, either Housing Executive or housing association tenants, to buy their houses in those areas, tenants are given a monetary discount to move out of the area, thus freeing up properties to be re-let to homeless people.

616.

Mr Williamson: We also need to link the approach to homelessness with other major Government policy initiatives, including community care, which has been ongoing for over a decade. There are still many bumps on that road, but a much greater integration between homelessness and community care is required.

617.

The Supporting People initiative, which the Committee has heard about and discussed recently, is tied into that. Although we have reservations about the initiative, it has great potential to achieve a greater degree of integration and flexibility in the provision of supportive services to help people to retain and take up tenancies. Retention of tenancies is important. A tenant might be living in a perfectly good building, but unless tenancy support services are provided - beyond the normal housing management services - it is highly likely that such tenancies will break down, and that the person will become homelessness again. The Supporting People initiative is one way in which more flexible tenancy support services can be provided, and there is much mileage and benefit to be gained by moving in that direction.

618.

Alan Rea has already said that the provision of foyers, which has been carried out on a small scale in Northern Ireland, links into education and job training. The target group for foyers is people at risk of homelessness, who also have need life-skills training, educational support, and vocational help to break through the "no home, no job" cycle. Foyers provide an integrated service under one roof. This is not meant to be permanent, and homeless people should only be there for about a year in order to break the cycle and start living independently - preferably with a job, or in structured education.

619.

The Housing Executive generally does a good job to improve procedures for the homeless, and provides a service to many people throughout the year. However, there is scope for enhancement. First, the Housing Executive has an internal book of guidance, and there would be virtue in making that a statutory code of guidance on homelessness. There are parallels for that in Great Britain where numerous local housing authorities have the responsibility for homeless applications. An equivalent code approved by the Department for Social Development would make the process more transparent for applicants and the public.

620.

Secondly, there is an internal appeals procedure. However, applicants who are aggrieved with a decision by Housing Executive about their homelessness case would benefit from a more transparent appeals procedure. In much the same way as the housing benefit system has an independent element in its appeal board, it would help the Housing Executive to demonstrate fairness and transparency, and also help the applicant, if it had a parallel procedure.

621.

Finally, we are happy with the Housing Executive's proposal in its review that it should take after-hours service on homelessness in-house. However, there are housing association providers of temporary direct access accommodation and, whether we like it or not, individuals will knock on those doors late at night without going through the Housing Executive system. It would make sense if an arrangement could be made where an immediate, interim assessment could be made and then ratified later by Housing Executive officials during working hours. Those are three small procedural changes that would enhance the present arrangements.

622.

In conclusion, on behalf of the federation I acknowledge the good work that the Housing Executive is doing on homelessness. We do not think that that is the end of the story, as there are additional things that can and should be done. Housing associations play a good part in the relief of homelessness, and we are not behind the door when it comes to taking initiatives such as the Foyers, tenancy support services, and things of that nature. David Crothers wrote to us in September 2000 to outline the limited proposals for changes to the homelessness legislation in the present Housing Bill, and we support those limited changes. We would encourage the Assembly to go a bit further, especially in relation to the points that we have made - for example, the vulnerability of 16- and 17-year-olds.

623.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. We have taken several presentations, and obvious themes run through them all. Homelessness is not specific. Although we are dealing with people who are homeless, I feel that the big issue is support for them. Many presentations have been about additional support for homeless people, which is nothing to do with housing. It is to do with education, health and support, and there does not seem to be any co-ordinated programmes - it has been hit-and-miss.

624.

The problem cannot be solved purely as a housing issue, as cross-cutting issues must be identified. That is the underlying theme. It is senseless to give homes to homeless people without providing support too, because within six or eight months they will be homeless again. Ms McNally made that point, but we need to flesh this out a bit more. First of all, there must be cross-departmental support if the project is to work, and that does not appear to be there. From our point of view it is not only about houses. It is about people and support for them to reintegrate them into society. Could we concentrate more on that and other resources that are needed?

625.

Mr Williamson: You have put your finger on a crucial point. There is no easy way of clinically dividing housing management and housing support services, but that should not deter us from attempting to ensure that those vital support services are in place. One could argue whether they should be the responsibility of the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Health or the Department of Education. In our view - and my colleagues are better placed to make this point - housing management encompasses education, because it helps people to run their homes, budget effectively, and generally maintain their tenancies. Tenancies are to do with housing, and the maintenance of those tenancies is a housing matter as well. Supporting People offers more flexibility in putting proper resources into place.

626.

The Chairperson: There are multiple reasons why people are homeless, for example, lack of support, especially for 16- and 17-year-olds going into the community. They need support, as you cannot just give them a house and walk away and leave them. It appears to me that people think that if homeless people are provided with homes, homelessness will be eradicated.

627.

Mr B Hutchinson: Should the priority need be extended to 16- and 17-year-olds leaving care, young adults and 17- to 21-year-old offenders leaving institutions? What is your experience of working with those young people?

628.

Ms McNally: We do not have much experience with the second group. We have a lot more experience with younger people. Unfortunately our housing association is small, and we have a very low turnover of accommodation. There is little we can do for people arriving at our office other than refer them to the Housing Executive. Ultimately they end up in a bed-and-breakfast or a bed bureau.

629.

Mr B Hutchinson: Would extending priority need help those people?

630.

Ms McNally: We tried to do that a few years ago when we worked with social services and the Simon Com­munity. We tried to provide something in Dungannon, but it fell through because of lack of funding.

631.

Mr Williamson: If the priority need category were extended - and assuming that the people we are talking about are not deliberately homeless - then, under the common selection scheme that housing associations and the Housing Executive operate, they would receive a substantial number of points that would take them to the top of the waiting list. That would put them in good stead for receiving an early offer of accommodation.

632.

The Chairperson: However, in the absence of additional support it would be best not to place them anywhere.

633.

Mr Williamson: I agree. That is why we need to be more flexible. We need to try and attract funding and imaginative thinking.

634.

The Chairperson: This has to be like a community care package. We cannot ask 16-or 17-year olds to go into a house and then leave them to look after themselves - that is not going to work.

635.

Ms Gildernew: My question is directed at Ms McNally because she will understand the problems of rural homelessness, and the fact that much of it is hidden because there is not much accommodation in rural areas. There is nowhere for people to go, and they end up staying with friends or family. The alternative is a flat in some part of Dungannon, perhaps 10 miles from the community they come from.

636.

Initiatives to increase social housing and new build have not been very successful in recent years. There is a dire shortage of new build in Tyrone and Fermanagh. I accept that a holistic approach is needed to prevent people becoming homeless, however, the dire shortage of housing in some rural areas is exacerbating the problem. Would you explain how your housing association tries to alleviate rural homelessness?

637.

Mr Williamson talked about making Supporting People more flexible. I feel that Supporting People will increase homelessness because the necessary funding will not be in place and more people will be on the streets. Would you elaborate on the difficulties we will be facing as a result of the new legislation?

638.

Ms McNally: Our housing association has looked at rural housing schemes, but unfortunately we have not been able to get Housing Executive support for them. We have not carried out much research into homelessness in rural areas, however we are aware that it exists. There are so many voids at local level in the Dungannon area, for example, that the Housing Executive, as you know, are almost loath to provide any other type of housing outside Dungannon. Young people from eight or 10 miles outside the town come to Dungannon, present themselves as homeless, and the first place offered to them will be a flat in a hard-to-let estate.

639.

Ms Gildernew: I was at a community association meeting in my area a few years ago, which was full of people interested in developing social housing. The criterion was that a certain number of replies had to be returned for the Housing Executive to build a certain number of houses. That night I argued that if the houses were built there would be no problem filling them. They could be filled ten times over, but the procedures in place were not very accommodating to the community.

640.

Ms McNally: I agree. We have done latent demands testing as well, and people will not fill in an application form. However, as soon as a sod is turned, you will be inundated with applications.

641.

Mr Williamson: We feel strongly about the supply side of social housing to deal reasonably quickly with the problem of homelessness. Without taking a blanket approach, there is case for taking a more strategic approach to the retention of existing social housing, as well as the provision of new housing, which brings us back to the house sales policy. A sound logical case can be made, on the grounds of housing need, for looking at the portable discount scheme as an alternative to selling existing stock in tightly defined areas.

642.

In addition, there is the business of getting new social housing into the areas where it is needed. It is a paradox that within a short distance there are houses that cannot be let, and people in need of them - there is no easy solution to that. Our Housing Executive colleagues are right to try to avoid compounding an already bad problem by draining existing stock. It is a difficult conundrum to deal with. We need to be much more localised in the identification and assessment of need.

643.

Ms Gildernew: People should have the right to buy their home in the area in which they live. I do not agree that preventing people from buying their home is the way to deal with the lack of social housing. The way to deal with the lack social housing is to build more houses. Can you tell us more about the Supporting People initiative, Mr Williamson?

644.

Mr Williamson: Supporting People is a new funding initiative or philosophy. As you correctly say, a key difference from the present arrangements is that there will be a limit on the amount of funding. We share your concern about any limit placed on it, but I must emphasis that under the existing legislation the provision of support services through transitional housing benefit will end after March 2003, whether we like it or not.

645.

I made the point informally that it was vital in my view and, more importantly, the view of the federation that alternative legislative arrangements and funding be made available for that which is currently provided through transitional housing benefit to be picked up by another heading. I will call it Supporting People for the sake of convenience. Assuming we get that legislation and funding in place, then the framework of Supporting People allows much more comprehensive assessment of overall needs, particularly those supportive needs that the Chairperson has rightly mentioned.

646.

It offers better integration between the various statutory providers - the Housing Executive, health and social services and the Probation Service. All of those bodies will sit on the Supporting People board, if you might call it that, and they will make joint decisions about the services that they need to cater for - finding the most user-friendly and practical way of using the Supporting People pot of money. It is a limited pot, but it gives much more scope than the present tunnel vision of departmental budgets. Supporting People offers a greater possibility of addressing these cross-cutting themes than the present arrangements.

647.

Mr ONeill: Ms McNally said that in her experience people would not participate in the latent demand exercise. I was involved in the introduction of that initiative some years ago, and I know of many successful app­lications. Are people not filling in the forms and participating in latent demand?

648.

Ms McNally: Dungannon & District Housing Association Ltd worked with the Housing Executive on this exercise. The Housing Executive provided a unit for so many hours a day, for a fixed number of days, but people did not turn up. Despite that, community groups have stated a certain number of local people who are interested in houses. We find that country people do not want to register on paper their interest in getting a house. However if the houses were built, there would be no problem in filling them.

649.

Mr ONeill: I am slightly puzzled, because I know of some successful applicants under the latent demand approach.

650.

Ms Gildernew: My experience is similar to that of Ms McNally. In my part of the country, people will not fill out the application forms, and we cannot get social housing built.

651.

Mr B Hutchinson: It would be the same in Protestant areas of Belfast.

652.

Mr ONeill: The latent demand approach does not necessarily involve an application form; it is simply a means of indicating interest in a house. There may be a problem with how it is sold.

653.

Ms McNally: The difficult step is to get applicants to complete an application form to register with the Housing Executive.

654.

Mr ONeill: It is a question of publicising the scheme. Mr Williamson, you talked about the guidance rules' becoming statutory. Can you give some examples of how that would make an impact, and of ways in which it would improve the situation?

655.

Mr Williamson: I cannot give you specific examples; however, the general principle is that the guidance should be open for public debate and alteration, as and when the Department for Social Development and the Housing Executive deem it necessary. Although the Housing Executive is a single organisation, it comprises around 30 district offices. We are all human, so people in one office might take a slightly different view of a rule to those in another office. Greater consistency could be achieved if the guidance were made statutory and became available to all interested parties. That would make the process more transparent and provide a framework for a more open and comprehensive debate about the policies that should be used and their interpretation.

656.

Mr ONeill: The Committee is exploring details that could be included in the legislation; that is why I asked for examples of where and how the legislation would apply, and its significance. I would be grateful if you would give the Committee some such examples.

657.

Mr Williamson: I will consult colleagues on the ground, and then get back to you.

658.

Mr G Kelly: Will you elaborate on your comment that the Housing Executive holds the balance of information, and that although you receive the majority of that information, you do not receive certain details? Does the information that the Housing Executive withholds relate to anti-social behaviour? What is your fear?

659.

Mr Williamson: We will sort out that matter with the Housing Executive, so I was perhaps slightly mistaken in mentioning that to the Committee. In response to your question, certain individuals in society present risks to those who live around them, on account of mental health problems or for other reasons.

660.

As Mr Rea mentioned, our member housing associations own a good deal of shared accommodation in which tenants do not have their own front door that can be locked.

661.

Mr G Kelly: The Housing Executive has the same problem.

662.

Mr Williamson: I do not deny that. However, the information on those risks is not held on the Housing Executive's computer system because, as is necessary and right, there are tight protocols on the release of such highly confidential details. Our point is that that information must be available to a social landlord who is about to make a housing offer to an individual in cases where there might be a risk either from or to that person.

663.

Mr G Kelly: Further to that point, are you referring to a mixed selection process?

664.

Mr Williamson: No. Our members, as well as the Housing Executive, are social landlords and as such they have a duty of care to their tenants. For example, years before the existence of the common selection scheme, a tenant who moved into shared accommodation owned and managed by a member housing association, threatened fellow residents with a knife. The association had no means of knowing about the potential risk exhibited by that individual, even though there were objective reasons to determine that risk.

665.

It is not a question of selection; rather, it is a matter of making a properly informed decision based on the risks involved and the nature of the service that the association can provide. Some associations operate specifically to help to manage individuals who pose a risk, so sometimes it would be appropriate for the association to accommodate such tenants. It would be completely irresponsible for an association to allocate such a tenant to ordinary shared accommodation for single people, without that knowledge.

666.

Mr G Kelly: How widespread is the problem concerning the portable discount, and how significant is it? Can you quantify the difference that it would make?

667.

Mr Williamson: I do not have the relevant figures here, but it specifically involves highly targeted localities where it is particularly difficult to house people with a severe housing need in a reasonable time. The Housing Executive's homelessness review identified seven areas in respect of which it is unhappy about the level of service that can be given to homeless people. That would be an example of how areas can be objectively marked out as those in which a portable discount might be a rational and sound means of addressing housing need.

668.

Mr G Kelly: Are those seven areas in the north or are they concentrated in Belfast?

669.

Mr Rea: My colleague tells me that they are in Belfast and Derry.

670.

The Chairperson: As regards portable discounts in respect of homelessness, 60% of people who are homeless are single. I imagine that most properties in areas of high demand are two- or three- bedroom houses. How would you justify allocating a three-bedroom house to a single person?

671.

Mr Williamson: That would not happen. Using the transfer system, much can be achieved after a single void has been generated.

672.

Mr Rea: If a three-bedroom house becomes vacant because the former tenant was given a portable discount, it might be offered to a tenant of a two-bedroom house who needs a third bedroom. Likewise, the two-bedroom house might be offered to a tenant of a one-bedroom flat who has a child. There is a domino effect.

673.

The Chairperson: I am aware of that. However, 60% of homeless people are single, so that domino effect would need to progress regularly.

674.

Mr Rea: Yes, that is true. The domino effect needs to continue so that such moves can take place.

675.

The Chairperson: Would it not be virtually impossible to involve that 60% in those moves?

676.

Mr Rea: No, in the high-demand areas of Belfast in which we work, if a house becomes available for re-letting, often it is not offered immediately to those at the top of the list. Rather, we work with the local Housing Executive office to facilitate up to five or six moves as a result of one vacancy.

677.

The Chairperson: However, the homeless person would end up with the flat.

678.

Mr Rea: Yes.

679.

The Chairperson: There are few maisonettes or flats in which homeless people with a high number of points would want to live.

680.

Mr Williamson: Perhaps that is the case with flats, but we certainly would not anticipate that a single homeless person would be placed in a three-bedroom house.

681.

The Chairperson: It would be senseless to allocate a single person a three-bedroom house, rather they should be considered for two-bedroom or single­-bedroom accommodation.

682.

Mr Rea: I do not agree with your assumption that single-person accommodation is unpopular. Our single-person accommodation is very popular - much more so than some of our houses and sheltered flats. Of course, the location of the accommodation is also a factor.

683.

The Chairperson: Portable discounts should only be offered to people living in areas of high demand.

684.

Mr Rea: Yes.

685.

The Chairperson: It is senseless to give portable discounts to somebody who lives in an area of low demand -that would make it impossible to let houses in that area.

686.

Mr Rea: With the domino effect, the resulting vacancy will still be within the area of high demand.

687.

The Chairperson: It might not be.

688.

Mr Rea: The intention is that it would be.

689.

The Chairperson: The house that is being let might be in an area of high demand. However, the domino effect might involve five or six sets of people moving. The sixth move might not be into an area of high demand.

690.

Mr Rea: According to our logic, it would have to be, because the portable discount applies only in high-demand areas, for which there are long waiting lists.

691.

The Chairperson: I know that. The portable discount is available only to people who live in high­demand areas. The domino effect could result in a sequence of up to five moves, so the last move could involve a single homeless person. Does every move in every area that you deal with take place in high-­demand areas?

692.

Mr Rea: If you follow the logic through -

693.

The Chairperson: Do you have accommodation in areas of low demand?

694.

Mr Rea: Yes, unfortunately there are.

695.

Mr B Hutchinson: Avoca Street?

696.

Mr Rea: That is an area of very low demand.

697.

Mr B Hutchinson: No demand.

698.

The Chairperson: One must be careful, because homeless people who have a high number of points and who are near the top of the waiting list can be rehoused in such instances.

699.

Mr Rea: Yes. They could be rehoused if they opted for another area.

700.

The Chairperson: In the areas to which you refer, the Housing Executive recognises homeless people as priority cases. Therefore, the situation of a homeless person who is high up on the waiting list will not be improved by the use of a portable discount - that will not boost their chances of being housed.

701.

Mr Rea: We follow the philosophy of applicant choice. The applicant can say refuse the offer of a flat in Avoca Street, and ask to be housed in an area of high demand, on the grounds that he or she has 100 points. In that case, that applicant can stay on the list.

702.

The Chairperson: The argument about portable discounts for homeless people is too long and convoluted to deal with today.

703.

Mr Williamson: I emphasise that there is no direct relationship between a portable discount and the homeless person. The purpose is to create an extra vacancy that would not otherwise occur, so that through the chain of vacancies, the homeless person, whether single, married or with children, can be given a home. It is not a case of equating directly the address where the portable discount applies, to the address that the single homeless applicant eventually gets.

704.

Mr ONeill: What is the average cost for a housing association to build a new three-bedroom single unit?

705.

Mr Rea: The cost of a three-bedroom, new build, semi-detached house in Belfast, including land acquisition, is around £60,000 to £65,000.

706.

Mr ONeill: What is the average transfer fee that you would give a tenant to move out?

707.

Mr Williamson: Are you referring to the trans­ferable discount?

708.

Mr ONeill: Yes.

709.

Mr Williamson: The scale of the portable discount should have the same monetary value as the discount that would apply if that tenant were permitted to buy the house. Therefore, it depends on the length of tenancy.

710.

Mr ONeill: The current maximum rate is 60%, so you will house a new tenant at 60% of the cost of supplying a new house for that tenant.

711.

Mr Williamson: It would create an additional vacancy - [Interruption.]

712.

Mr ONeill: Is it a money-saving exercise?

713.

Mr Williamson: We believe that it is, and it has the advantage of being better value for money than the alternative.

714.

Ms Gildernew: What is the alternative?

715.

Mr Williamson: The alternative is to build a new house, having found the land on which to build, and the necessary consent, and so on. Work is being carried out to find information that will answer Mr ONeill's question better. At present, we do not have the results of that, but we will share it with you when we receive it.

716.

The Chairperson: Mr Rea, what proportion of your tenants are single?

717.

Mr Rea: Around one third - which is about 1,200.

718.

Ms Gildernew: The portable discounts process is a merry-go-round, which must be expensive to administer. Would it not be easier to build another few houses, inclusive of land acquisition?

719.

Mr Rea: We would like to have the money to build them, but we are being realistic. There are ways, other than through central funding, to provide accommo­dation.

720.

Ms Gildernew: Do you compensate tenants who have to move around? Do you give them a budget to help them to move?

721.

Mr Rea: Not if they choose to do so. However, if we move them for refurbishment or redevelopment they are entitled to receive compensation.

722.

Ms Gildernew: What is the maximum com­pensation?

723.

Mr Rea: That depends on why a tenant is moving. If a tenant is moving temporarily while we renovate a property, he or she will receive around £250 to move and around £200 to move back again. If we move tenants because we plan to demolish their house in order to redevelop the area or to build a new house, and move them back in three or four years, there is a home-loss payment of £1,500 and a disturbance payment of £400.

724.

There is a minimum disturbance payment of £400. Tenants would also be entitled to a decanting payment. No payment is made to tenants who move as the result of an ordinary transfer, whereby, for example, a woman with two children wants to move into a three-bedroom house.

725.

Mr Williamson: Mr Rea is describing the present arrangements for home loss and disturbance payments. I am aware of no reason why, in a portable discount scheme, we cannot offer more simple arrangements or different levels of compensation to cover the expenses of moving.

726.

The Chairperson: We are missing the point about homelessness - packages of support should be provided. Homeless people have differing needs. Regardless of whether we adopt the portable discount or another method, we will still not be providing the package that people need. If half of your tenants are single, and around 15% to 20% are under 20 -

727.

Mr Williamson: We do not contend that the portable discount system will provide a package.

728.

The Chairperson: We need to focus on how to tackle homelessness. There is a difference between building more social housing to meet housing need and providing homeless individuals with the support that they need. There is no sense in using portable discounts to allocate someone a house, only to discover six months later that that person is homeless again. Their difficulty is not that they do not have a home, but that they are given insufficient support while they are living in social housing. The Committee is concerned about that matter. How do we prevent recurrent homelessness?

729.

Mr Rea: BIH has adopted a mechanism to deal with that within the Supporting People remit. We are advised that associations will be able to bid for funding from the Supporting People budget to prevent what is called tenancy breakdown and to prevent homeless­ness. BIH has made a bid for a community support officer, who would concentrate on supporting vulnerable tenants. That category might include young single people, the elderly and those with special needs. The objective is to assist those tenants, once they move into our accommodation, with budgeting arrangements and to settle into the community.

730.

The Chairperson: My concern about the special purchase of evacuated dwellings (SPED) scheme applies to this scheme also. SPED should not be linked to the Housing Executive or any other housing body; it is a security matter. The Housing Executive has taken respon­sibility for SPED over the years and it is now landed with it. The same applies in this case: to provide Supporting People funding for an officer or other facilities evades the issue. Those schemes will work only if they receive cross-departmental support. Health and education authorities have roles to play. It is nonsense to claim that this is simply a housing issue, and that it is the exclusive responsibility of the Department for Social Development. That Department is partly responsible for the issue, but more must be done to tackle home­lessness and to help the vulnerable. That is the Committee's view.

731.

Thank you very much.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 28 February 2002

Members present:

Mr Cobain (Chairperson)

Ms Gildernew (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr G Kelly

Mr ONeill

Mr Tierney

Mr S Wilson

Witnesses:

Ms F Boyle       )

Mr F Lynn       )                       Simon Community

Ms C O'Bryan  )

732.

The Chairperson: I will begin our homelessness inquiry session by welcoming the representatives of the Simon Community, Ms Carol O'Bryan, Ms Fiona Boyle and Mr Feargal Lynn. Ms O'Bryan will introduce their submission.

733.

Ms O'Bryan: Thank you for inviting us to make this presentation, which I will lead. Fiona Boyle is our research and development director and has been with the Simon Community for seven years. Feargal Lynn is the director of accommodation and resettlement for our regional projects, which will be of interest to those who are concerned with rural issues. Mr Lynn has been with the Simon Community for 10 years, and so has knowledge and expertise within the team. I understand that the information pack has been distributed to you, so I shall go through the submission in the order that items appear in the pack.

734.

The Simon Community has been in existence for 30 years. During that time we have sought to assist Northern Ireland society by making provision for, and understanding, the needs of homeless people. Through that work we have sought not only to provide accommo­dation and other services but also to influence Government policy and public attitudes.

735.

Unfortunately, 30 years on, homelessness is on the increase in Northern Ireland. The figures for 2000-01 indicate that there were over 12,500 homeless house­holds. In the information pack the figures for your own constituencies are detailed. Those 12,500 homeless households equates to 22,000 adults and children. That is the equivalent of the population of a town the size of Coleraine or Newry, to put it in perspective.

736.

During the same period, 4,000 individuals approached the organisation. The Simon Community works with those who present as single homeless people. We were able to house 1,200 of them, 50% of whom were young people under 25 years of age. Sixty per cent of those people had a rural address of origin. When we looked at this on a United Kingdom basis, we discovered that the incidence of homelessness in Northern Ireland equates to 1 in 81 of our population in that year, and is 50% greater than the figure for Great Britain.

737.

To make sense of the arrangements that we have in place, it is necessary to link those back to the causes of homelessness. Through our own research programmes, we have identified four main causes of homelessness - structural, institutional, relationship and personal. Flowing from each of those causes are societal factors.

738.

Within structural homelessness, there are factors such as access to the housing market and affordability. Poverty and unemployment exacerbate those factors. Moving on to what we call the "triggers", we focus on particular issues for individuals. If one is in a financial crisis or has high levels of debt, it will be even more difficult to break into the housing market. That leads an organisation to ask what prevention measures are available and what arrangements it needs to have in place. For each of the causes there are factors and personal triggers, and they in turn reflect the arrangements that are in place.

739.

It is important to highlight the social exclusion elements of homelessness. It is well recognised that homelessness is possibly the most prominent example of social exclusion in society.

740.

How do the measures of prevention, which I will outline in more detail later, help break into the cycle of homelessness? We believe that the cycle contains four main elements. The first element is an obvious one - having no home. We believe that responsibility for that matter falls clearly within the Department for Social Development's remit. The second element is poor health; the third is employment prospects; and the fourth is finance.

741.

However, each of those categories includes many multifaceted issues. For example, without an address, one is highly unlikely to be able to open a bank account, which in turn leads to financial exclusion. Therefore, we must dig deeper into each of those categories in order to get to grips with the issues that homeless people face.

742.

It would be easy for us to become swamped by the levels of homelessness and the nature of homeless people's needs. However, we believe that the current arrangements go some way to meet those needs. The main provision in our legislation is the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1988. Under that legislation, over 12,500 households, or 51%, were assessed as being full-duty applicants. One could imagine that those house­holders would have received an acceptable standard of care and services, and had access to accommodation. Unfortunately, that is not always the case.

743.

What happens to the remaining 49% who do not receive full-duty applicant status? It is at that point that organisations such as ours offer the assistance and advice that those individuals need, as well as offering that assistance to some of the individuals who form part of the 51%.

744.

There are four different types of intervention. The first is prevention, which within the Simon Community is divided into two levels, primary and secondary. We consider primary prevention to be within the Department of Education's remit, and we are developing partnerships and education programmes with the Department that will be delivered in post-primary schools.

745.

Secondary prevention involves preparing homeless people for independent living. Once they have moved into their own accommodation, we seek to provide tenancy support so that they will not become homeless again. Unfortunately, people do become homeless again, and services must be developed to stop that spiral of homelessness. Working with re-presenters is therefore highly important.

746.

Under the housing support intervention approach, our organisation first undertakes an assessment of needs for the 4,000 people who come to us, and we provide them with advice and information about their options and, indeed, advise them whether the Simon Community is an option for them. We have a support plan in place for those who are placed in our accommo­dation, but our work does not stop there. Emergency accommodation is important, but it would be unfair to the individual, and to society, if that were the only service that we offered.

747.

We have developed a three-stage approach to the housing needs of homeless people. First, through the emergency provision in our hostels; secondly, in our move-on flats, which give people the opportunity to practise independent living, and thirdly, we help them with the transition from living in our accommodation to living in social rented or private rented sector accommodation.

748.

We have been particularly keen to develop a relationship with the private rented sector to afford opportunities for people to be housed in decent accommo­dation, and to support them in that. Sometimes it is the only option.

749.

There are several barriers to accessing temporary and permanent housing. For example, there is no temporary provision in County Fermanagh. The provision to the west of the River Bann is poor, with the exception of Derry city. There is a lack of affordable and accessible permanent accommodation. The waiting lists are long and they are getting longer. It is even more difficult for single people and people under the age of 25 to find accommodation. That problem is compounded by the common selection scheme, and the way in which homelessness is weighted - or, indeed, not weighted - by that initiative.

750.

There are four elements to the personal support that we provide. First, I re-emphasise the importance of helping individuals to find, make and keep a home. We should not stop at simply finding a home for someone; we must help them to make it a place of their own, and to keep it like that. That falls under the heading of "supporting people".

751.

Secondly, some homeless people also have health and social care needs, and we are working with the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and other agencies to meet those needs. Those relationships are in the development stages.

752.

Thirdly, we mentioned the "no job" element of the homelessness cycle. Preparation for employment is an important part of our work. We have been talking with the Department for Employment and Learning about its initiative on employability and long-term unemployment, and how homelessness fits into that.

753.

Finally, community liaison is an important element that is sometimes overlooked. One aspect of that is that most of the people that we work with will have come from a community, which they may wish to return to. The second aspect is the fact that our houses are based in communities. Sometimes the relationship with that community is tense, and sometimes it is benevolent. Dealing with those relationships is an important part of our work.

754.

With regard to the resettlements that the Simon Community offers, I have already referred to the support plans and the prevention of tenancy breakdown. I would particularly like to highlight one of our self-help group initiatives, which involves ex-residents meeting to support one another in their own tenancies. They look to each other for help, and receive mutual support. A spin-off of that initiative is the support that the ex-­residents give to current residents. That in turn helps them to build up the courage and confidence to move on.

755.

That is a general overview of our arrangements. At the beginning of the presentation, I mentioned the fact that part of our job is to influence policy. In May last year, we launched our report, 'An Agenda for Action', which was supported by several people in this room and other MLAs. The agenda sets out our priorities for solving the problem of homelessness. I will not go through the document in detail at this stage, but I draw your attention to the fact that the pack contains the full paper, which gives the details on the agenda.

756.

That is the extent of the problem, and those are the arrangements that the Simon Community offers. However, significant pieces are missing, which can be seen on three levels. First and foremost, strategic input is required from the Department for Social Development. We are aware that a housing Bill is likely to be announced in the near future. The Bill is an excellent opportunity to make provision for addressing the needs of homeless people by extending the age-related discretion on priority need.

757.

That would be for young people, 16- and 17- year-olds, but also for older people. Our research informs us about some of the dreadful situations that people over 50 years of age face in Northern Ireland when they are in need of temporary accommodation. An authoritative code of guidance is required to ensure that the legislation is earthed in practice, because that does not appear to be the case at the moment. Also, the right to review should be contained in the Bill.

758.

Other strategic input is in relation to the new-build programme. Our figures show that over the past three years, even with a new-build programme apparently sitting at 1,500 units, the social rented sector has been reduced overall by 2%. That is a worrying figure, especially because single-person households are growing. With regard to the approach to house sales policy, we are suggesting either a passported or differentiated policy.

759.

We urge support for the Northern Ireland Housing Executive homelessness strategy, which was out for consultation last year. We are awaiting the outcome at the end of March.

760.

At an operational level, the development of understanding in the Housing Executive at district level would make life easier for homeless providers and homeless people, as would changes to the common selection scheme that I referred to earlier.

761.

There have been discussions about the impact of the transitional housing benefits scheme and what will follow on from "supporting people". We still have some time to get that right, which is important.

762.

Homeless people have complex needs. The Programme for Government upholds the concept of joined-up thinking, so we are looking for joined-up solutions. The New TSN initiative and the promoting social inclusion targets might be an opportunity to effect a change for the better for the homeless population.

763.

Our figures highlight that homelessness in Northern Ireland is 50% higher than in Great Britain because of the structure of our housing market, and there is especially limited access for single people. Homelessness is more than just a roof, and the housing Bill provides us with an opportunity to make a difference.

764.

Mr S Wilson: You mentioned the number of re-presenters. Having had the opportunity to visit one of the Simon Community's houses and see the work that goes on to build up the confidence of many people who have sad and harrowing stories to tell, I was amazed at their optimism, especially after what they have gone through. However, that must evaporate once they leave, because there is a high level of re-presenters. What percentage of the people whom you deal with are re-presenters, and how quickly do they re-present?

765.

You mentioned the extension of age discretion for priority need. We appreciate the fact that some young people may have difficulties that cause them to leave home. If there were an extension of the age-­related discretion, how would you ensure that you did not encourage young people to leave home? That could become an anti-family policy, if that were the case. Young people may present themselves more often because they do not have the necessary maturity or support from the family home. Is that to be encouraged?

766.

Ms Boyle: About a quarter of the people who come to the Simon Community have previously stayed with us or they have stayed in other hostels. One out of four people come back into the homeless cycle, which demonstrates the complexity of homelessness. It is a difficult cycle to break, and it highlights the issue of tenancy readiness. When people are resettled they may not be ready for a tenancy. When they move on they may feel isolated, they may not be living in their chosen area or they may not have the skills to live independently. Those are some of the reasons that people re-present. I cannot comment today on how quickly people come back. However, it varies depending on the underlying trigger for homelessness.

767.

Mr Lynn: With regard to encouraging an anti-family policy, our hostels are not a pleasant environment for a young person because there are rules, regulations, expectations from management and staff, commitments that we expect from young people and also the general hostel environment. Our statistics are encouraging in that they demonstrate that 10% of young people who stayed with us last year returned to their families. An additional 3% moved on or returned to friends. Therefore, 13% of admissions returned to their families. There would be demands for additional support services and packages for young people living in our accommodation or accessing our accommodation. The priority status should be broadened to include that younger age group, and that would ensure the success of a young person's tenancy. There would be additional support packages and requirements for those young people to move on successfully.

768.

The Chairperson: Is the main cause for young people presenting themselves as homeless due to a breakdown in the family relationship?

769.

Mr Lynn: The main reason is family breakdown, relationship breakdown and young people who leave care and come through social services contacts.

770.

Mr G Kelly: You mentioned the extension of the discretion in both ways.

771.

Ms Boyle: Recently we have been working on a research project on older homelessness. People who are 50 to 60 years old are not automatically taken to be in priority need, and nor do they fall easily into some of the social services categories, unless they have a physical or mental disability. However, if a person has been homeless for some years and has reached that age category, they are vulnerable and in priority need. The Simon Community proposes that there could be discretion for people in that age group who are in priority need.

772.

Mr G Kelly: It is widely accepted that homelessn­ess must be an interdepartmental issue, as opposed to resting solely with the Department for Social Dev­elopment. You said that a partnership with the Department of Education and the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety is being developed. What stage is that at? What does it mean for both cases?

773.

Ms Boyle: Over the past five years, the Simon Community has developed a relationship with the Department of Education through EU Peace funding. Half the people who approach the Simon Community are young; one in five are aged 16, 17 or 18. Therefore, the Simon Community thought that it was important to go to schools to try to break that cycle, and make young people take off their rose-tinted spectacles.

774.

The first initiative with the Department of Education was the development of a CD-ROM, Outhouse, which went to every post-primary school in Northern Ireland. It is based on the curriculum and it touches on several curriculum subjects, including home economics and English. Therefore, its capacity to teach skills for independent living and to teach young people about homelessness is broad.

775.

The Simon Community has further developed its work with young people with the establishment of Outspoken, which is a peer education group. Young homeless people are trained to go to schools and tell their peers how life really would be if they were homeless.

776.

A more recent development is that the Simon Community is drafting parts of the citizenship module of the curriculum on homelessness for the Department of Education.

777.

Mr Lynn: Several exploratory partnerships have been established. The Simon Community recently responded to the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety's Invest in Health programme on issues of mental health promotion and the mental health and well-being of homeless people. Our Larne and Coleraine units are working with the Northern Health and Social Services Board, the Causeway Trust and the Homefirst Community Trust to dispel the myths about teenage pregnancy in those board areas. A member of the Simon Community's senior staff represents it on the Northern Ireland Drugs Strategy. We hope that that will help in responding to the issues of drugs and pregnancy.

778.

The Chairperson: Are the majority of the 50-year-olds and 60-year-olds that you mentioned considered long-term or repeat homeless?

779.

Ms Boyle: Of our 1,200 residents last year, 15% were aged 50 to 60. Therefore, they tend to be long-term or repeat homeless.

780.

The Chairperson: If the Simon Community did not exist, would those people be institutionalised?

781.

Ms Boyle: It is important to realise that some people cannot be resettled, and there may be a need for longer-term accommodation.

782.

The Chairperson: Such people are more likely to be in that age group.

783.

Mr ONeill: Do you think that the existing definition of homelessness is adequate? You clearly have doubts, because a lot of people are waiting to be housed. How do you define homelessness? It has been discussed before, but it may be of benefit to mention it today.

784.

Ms Boyle mentioned "tenancy readiness", which impacts slightly on Mr Kelly's question. What needs to be put in place to ensure tenancy readiness for the people to whom she referred?

785.

Ms Boyle: The Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1988 defines homelessness and talks about priority need and intentionality. Last year, of those who presented to the Housing Executive as homeless, 51% were full-duty applicants and in the priority need category, and of the remaining 49%, some were viewed as homeless but not in priority need, that is intentionally homeless. A homeless person must overcome a complex interconnection of hurdles.

786.

When a person comes to us, we assess his needs to determine whether he is homeless, and it is important to state that individuals who clearly are not homeless do not take us in. Our definition is wider than that of the legislation - it does not consider single people to be in priority need, but single people come to us.

787.

Mr Lynn: We rule on tenancy readiness once we have responded to the needs identified at assessment. An individual may present to us as homeless and cite financial, health or employment reasons for not remaining in a tenancy long-term. When we have assessed his housing history and identified why he cannot remain long-term in tenancy, we seek to address effectively, with other voluntary and statutory agencies, the reasons for that person's coming to us. Once we have effectively addressed those reasons and put appropriate support packages in place, we then have the confidence to assist that individual to move to his own tenancy.

788.

The Southern Health and Social Services Board's children's planning group has proposed that social services be the lead agency when assessing a homeless 16- to 18- year old. That responds to the family-orientated approach, but where an agency such as that works in partnership with a group such as ours, we can identify when an individual's tenancy is ready and ensure that his needs are met effectively. He will not be left as vulnerable as when he initially presented.

789.

Mr ONeill: It is interesting that Mr Lynn picked that example: the Committee was impressed before with information that it got on that scheme. The Simon Community is a major player in homelessness, and the Committee has seen many presentations so it knows that the problem is complex one that agencies and support groups work hard to deal with. Sometimes we get the impression, to put it bluntly, that they all work on their own patches rather than together, which sometimes results in gaps - in the centre of Belfast, for instance, some homeless people had to help themselves.

790.

There is a difference between a reasonableness test that, by and large, is at a lower level than what we as an organisation say is needed to run something and a realistic level, and there is currently a gap in the funding, and that must be understood before we go anywhere. There is already a shortfall, and with the move into the new funding regime in April 2003, our assessment is that the gap will increase because of the competition with the supporting people funds.

791.

The Chairperson: On supporting people, what criteria is the Housing Executive using? Are they written down?

792.

Ms O'Bryan: We have not received any written criteria. We were told that if our housing management element exceeds £60 per week, it would not be deemed acceptable, but that was not put in writing.

793.

Ms Gildernew: How much?

794.

Ms O'Bryan: £60.

795.

The Chairperson: If we are going to make financial decisions, it is important for the Committee to see those criteria. That is not to say that the Committee supports having an open chequebook: everyone wants money spent, but we also want value for money. Mr ONeill's comments about ensuring that there is no duplication and that people are dealing with the causes of homelessness and about competition between organisations are important. We must see the criteria by which people -

796.

Mr S Wilson: I want to get an idea of the figure per head. How many places does the £1·8 million that the Simon Community currently gets from housing benefit support?

797.

Ms O'Bryan: That supports 300 bed spaces every night of the year.

798.

Ms Gildernew: Thank you for the presentation. What is the extent of hidden homelessness west of the Bann? We have some figures, but often they do not show the real need that exists in a rural community. What are the main provisions for tackling homelessness in rural communities? Should there be an increase in social housing, or what practical suggestions could we make?

799.

Can you elaborate on what the Southern Board is doing about young people leaving care? Is the Southern Board suggesting that 16- to 17-year olds should be considered to be in priority need, yet that is not the policy of the Housing Executive? Is that right? Would you say that renovation and replacement grants have also helped to decrease homelessness in rural areas?

800.

Ms Boyle: Obviously Northern Ireland is a rural community - 39% of the population lives in rural areas. The Housing Executive's figures indicate several areas where there have been significant increases in homelessness. It is difficult to measure rural homelessness because people come to a town to present. It is difficult to look behind that and know where they came from. I can give a couple of examples. Last year there was a 33% increase in homelessness in Magherafelt; Coleraine had a 52% increase; and Ballymena a 135% increase. Those towns have significant rural hinterlands, so homelessness is not just an urban problem.

801.

To reiterate Ms O'Bryan's point earlier, 60% of those who come to us have either come directly from a rural area or have moved to a city and then presented as homeless. We assessed that by their next of kin, area of origin or last known address. When we examined the figures we were surprised, because they were much higher than we had thought.

802.

With regard to dealing with the problem, we have looked at places such as Enniskillen, where there is significant homelessness. However, it is not feasible to develop a capital project with 20 or 30 bed spaces, because there would not be enough demand to sustain it. There are several other rural approaches, for example, the Foyer movement, throughout the UK whereby training and employment services are taken to homeless young people in the private rented sector, including rural areas. Our organisation wants to examine that, and the Housing Executive has embarked on rural homelessness research with its report 'Places for People'.

803.

The Chairperson: Can you explain what the Foyer project is for the record?

804.

Ms Boyle: The Foyer is a European concept that came to the UK in the early 1990s to provide accommo­dation for young homeless people together with employ­ment and training under one roof. The idea is to tackle all the barriers, such as having no job, money or a home, together.

805.

Ms Gildernew: Can you give us examples of those projects?

806.

Ms Boyle: Certainly. There are four in Northern Ireland. The first was the Belfast Foyer, which was developed by the Simon Community. It has 42 bedsits, is open to 17-to-25-year olds and has a high success rate in helping young people who come to it, about three quarters of whom have no qualifications on arrival - three quarters do have qualifications and training when they leave.

807.

Ms Gildernew: You said that there were four projects; what about the others?

808.

Ms Boyle: There is one in north Belfast, which is run by Flax Housing Association Ltd. There is one in Derry, run by North and West Housing Association Ltd, and there is student accommodation at Mount Zion House in Lurgan.

809.

Mr S Wilson: Can I follow up on that -

810.

Ms Gildernew: The rest of my question has not been answered yet.

811.

Mr S Wilson: May I just follow up on that before we lose it? Given that the economies of scale are probably greater in a Foyer-type project, how do you envisage that being applied to rural homelessness?

812.

Ms Boyle: There is an example in Devon and Cornwall, where the population is scattered and isolated. Employment and training services are moved around literally in a bus. The staff go out in that bus, and in each small town there may be three- or four-bed unit for young homeless people. There are no 30-bed units, but there is a range of smaller units. That is a possible option, which could operate in the private rented sector.

813.

Mr Lynn: In relation to the Southern Health and Social Services Board's response to young people leaving care at 16 or 17, the children's services planning group has submitted a proposal for a subcommittee specifically to deal with that age group. There was also a suggestion that each trust should have an officer appointed to co-ordinate the response to dealing with young care leavers who could co-ordinate the housing, social and other issues associated with leaving care. It proposed also forming a long-term strategy to respond to young homelessness people.

814.

The Chairperson: There is a growing emphasis on single people. Society is changing, as is the way in which housing is provided for single people. The majority of homeless people are single. It is clear that many different issues concerning homelessness must be tackled, and the only way to do that, as Eamon ONeill said, is by taking the strategic view. The Foyer Movement is one example of that.

815.

Ms Boyle: The Simon Community recognises that the percentage of singles has grown from 19% in 1981 to 26% now, and it continues to increase in both the younger and the older age groups. For us the main need is for accommodation built for singles. Much of the Housing Executive and housing association stock is family accommodation, which was built when that was needed. There is now a need for more single person accommodation, balanced against the need for lifetime homes.

816.

With regard to singles accessing accommodation, we return to what is affordable. In the private rented sector the housing benefit regulations require those under 25 to have a rent deposit and a guarantor. That is not always possible for the younger age group of singles.

817.

Ms O'Bryan: In respect of strategy, we made reference earlier to new TSN and joined-up thinking. Currently, although the Simon Community can engage with individual Departments, it has not been possible to bring two or three Departments together to discuss the issues. A mechanism to facilitate that would be of benefit, even with the Foyer movement, given that Social Development and Employment and Learning are key partners in that. Bringing them together to appreciate the worth of those projects and their con­tribution would be good.

818.

There are also "intra-departmental issues". Returning to the earlier comment on transitional housing benefit and supporting people, a recent research paper by the Department of Work and Pensions in England states that there is a need for joined-up thinking among providers, housing benefit administrators and the supporting people team in the equivalent of our Housing Executive. The issue is therefore both intra-departmental and inter-departmental. If you are not aware of that report, I suggest that we provide you with its findings.

819.

Mr S Wilson: I return to single weighting and follow what Ms Boyle said about the increasing number of single homeless people and the proportion of singles on the waiting list. Approximately two-thirds of cases over the last six months were people in families, already in accommodation, but sometimes living with other family members - perhaps parents with their sons or daughters - or families who were in houses which were too small, causing a strain on family relationships, which can lead to the break up of marriages. Is there not a danger that if more weighting is given to homeless single people, leaving aside whether that encourages people to leave home, the waiting list becomes skewed towards people who may have other options and away from families who are in poor, overcrowded accommodation or sharing with other family members thus creating social problems and resentment among people in overcrowded accommo­dation who are being disadvantaged because of the change in housing allocation procedure?

820.

Ms Boyle: In addition to 12,000 families on the homelessness waiting list, around 10,500 families are on the housing stress waiting list. How those two lists interconnect raises problems, and more new accommo­dation is needed to get people off them. Members of three generations living in one house or a house's not being big enough raise the matter of hidden home­lessness, of people who do not present as homeless and housing stressed.

821.

They also highlight homeless children. Last year, we did some work in the north-west with the Housing Executive. A census was carried out of families judged to be full-duty applicants but who, because of the waiting list - particularly in Derry city - were waiting for up to two years to get out of temporary accommo­dation, bed-and-breakfast accommodation and hostels, into their own houses. On one day, 383 children were living in temporary accommodation so great is the pressure on that list. We can look at how the selection scheme weights different people, but the need for more accommodation remains.

822.

Mr G Kelly: Given what you said about tenancy readiness and new build, is there a problem in complexes with many single-bedroom apartments? I do not want to use the phrase "dumping ground", but could they become places where homeless people are housed?

823.

You said that the problem is multi-faceted, and we agree. Without being overly general, there can be problems with anti-social behaviour, alcoholism or whatever. Does the Simon Community ensure that everyone who must be housed does not go to the same place? If 10 flats in the one complex became available, does the relationship that a person has with the community affect whether he is housed in that complex?

824.

Mr Lynn: We are concerned about the allocation of tenancies to some people whom we would accom­modate in particular addresses. If someone applies for housing and indicates an area of choice, demand for that area will determine whether the person is allocated a tenancy. If someone is offered a tenancy in a street, area or address where he feels vulnerable or at risk, legislation dictates that he must take that address or be offered another choice.

825.

Two reasonable offers are made. If a person does not take either, his options are limited for several years. That causes us concern, and we urge wider choice and greater negotiation at district level to enable us to offer more appropriate addresses for some of our residents. One success factor that ensures tenancy sustainability is social networks. If we can locate individuals in areas where they have strong social networks, that helps us to ensure the sustainability of that tenancy.

826.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. It was very interesting.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Tuesday 5 March 2002

Members present:

Mr Cobain (Chairperson)

Mr Hamilton

Mr B Hutchinson

Mr G Kelly

Mr ONeill

Mr M Robinson

Mr S Wilson

Witnesses:

Ms J Hunter                        )                        Housing Rights Service

Ms N McCrudden                        )

827.

The Chairperson: I welcome the director of the Housing Rights Services, Janet Hunter, and the policy and communication co-ordinator, Nicola McCrudden.

828.

Ms Hunter: I will give you some background about our organisation. The Housing Rights Service aims to prevent homelessness and eradicate poor housing conditions in Northern Ireland. We provide several services to help achieve that. One of our core services is providing advice, advocacy and representation to people who are homeless or in housing need.

829.

Last year we provided advice to about 5,800 people. Approximately 60% were people with issues associated with homelessness or who were being threatened with homelessness. Much of our work is with homeless people, and we are pleased to have the opportunity to tell the Committee about the experiences of our clients, the problems they face and give some suggestions for improving their lot.

830.

We wish to focus on two phases that the process needs to follow. The first concerns those steps that require immediate legislative action - issues we would like to see addressed in the housing Bill. We know, having seen the proposed Bill, that none of them have been included. There will be a consultation period, and we hope that by the end of that period some provisions could be included. The second phase is more long-term; it is about putting together a strategy for a long-term response to the problem of homelessness in Northern Ireland.

831.

Many enquiries to our organisation concern homelessness and a significant number are about the current homelessness legislation contained in the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1988. There are problems with interpretation of the legislation and what protection it affords to homeless people.

832.

I wish to concentrate on four main areas. First, existing legislation does not provide adequate protection for young people who become homeless through no fault of their own. We are thinking mainly of 16- and 17-year-olds but also of some care leavers in the 18-to-21 age group. I know that the Committee has already taken evidence on this issue so it will not be entirely new to members. Therefore I will not focus too much on it. I certainly do not want to reiterate what other people have said. I would just endorse the view that there is a need for increased protection. There is no automatic priority for this age group under housing legislation or the relevant children's legislation.

833.

Accommodation options available to 16- to 17- year-olds are very limited. They do not have the same level of income or benefits as older people, and they do not have the capacity to form a legal contract. Therefore the private rented sector is simply not an option for them. They are only permitted access to the common waiting list in exceptional circumstances so it is very difficult for them to be allocated a tenancy in the social housing sector. Owner occupation is not a realistic option either. They face particular problems in securing accommodation.

834.

There is also a very urgent need to ensure that any provision in the housing Bill to extend priority need to young people be closely allied to the provisions in the Children (Leaving Care) Bill, which, I understand, was announced yesterday. As we were not sure which stage the Children (Leaving Care) Bill would be at, we have couched our recommendations in broad terms but with the caveat that any amendments to the housing legislation should be complementary to that Bill. So we are talking about 16- to 17-year-olds who have not been in care and also some 18- to 21-year-olds who have been in care but who would not be covered by the provisions of the Children (Leaving Care) Bill.

835.

Another point is that, until recently, young people in England, Scotland and Wales were in a similar position and experienced similar difficulties. However, the situation there has now been addressed and legislation is currently going through in all of these areas to give priority need to this group. Our young people should not be disadvantaged. They are entitled to the same legal assistance and rights as young people living in other areas.

836.

Our clients regularly present with another problem - that of variations in the quality of assessment and the decision-making process. There is considerable scope for interpretation and the use of discretion in making decisions under the current homelessness legislation. That can and does lead to inconsistency and lack of uniformity in the process. Unfortunately, the outcome for the homeless person can depend upon what office that person presents to.

837.

In Scotland, England and Wales the homelessness legislation is supplemented by a detailed code of guidance that provides additional interpretation on the legislation. That code must be consulted when local authorities in these areas are making decisions or carrying out assessments under the legislation. A code of guidance does not exist in Northern Ireland. We believe that one should be introduced, as it would lead to a better, fairer and more consistent approach to the decision-making process. Research in other areas has suggested that the introduction of the code has had exactly that impact.

838.

Our clients' experience is that the existing process for reviewing adverse homeless decisions is inadequate. As you are probably aware, there is a limited uptake of appeals in Northern Ireland. Last year, over 6,000 people were refused full duty applicant status and only about 300 of those applied to have that decision reviewed. There are, of course, a number of reasons why that may be the case, but I would concur with the findings of the Ombudsman's survey, which stated that most people in Northern Ireland did not bother to challenge public sector decisions because they felt there was no point.

839.

In Northern Ireland there is no statutory right to appeal a decision made under the homelessness legislation. That is a very significant point as that is quite unlike the situation for appealing decisions in other areas of social welfare law. Entitlement to a benefit and the level of that benefit, for example, can be appealed to an independent and impartial tribunal. It is also different to the situation for homeless people in England, Scotland and Wales. In Northern Ireland the Housing Executive has the discretion and power to decide whether to review a decision and what format that review should take.

840.

Housing Executive policy allows an applicant to submit an appeal but that does not constitute a formal hearing, as neither the applicant nor a representative can present oral evidence. That is a fundamental right. It should not be a matter of organisational policy whether or not an appeal against a decision can be made under the legislation. The current Housing Executive process is essentially an internal administrative review process where senior officers review the decisions made by officers at local level. A recent Court of Appeal case in England confirmed that an internal administrative review does not comply with article 6.1 of the Human Rights Act 1998 which states that

"In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law."

841.

We would like to see a statutory right of review introduced in Northern Ireland with regulations to govern its format, which should comply with the Human Rights Act 1998 by introducing an external and independent element.

842.

A significant amount of our work is about preventing homelessness - working with people, for example, who are under threat of eviction by landlords or who are experiencing difficulties with repaying mortgages. There is no current strategic approach to preventing homelessness in Northern Ireland.

843.

In England, Scotland and Wales there is a legislative requirement to produce a strategy to prevent and alleviate homelessness. There is also a duty on social services to assist in the strategy and to take account of it when discharging their functions. This is a very important element. There is no such statutory requirement in Northern Ireland, and the traditional approach taken here has been to focus on alleviating homelessness after it has occurred. This approach has been confirmed by research recently undertaken on behalf of the Housing Executive, which confirmed that expenditure in Northern Ireland is very low compared with other similar-sized authorities in England or Scotland.

844.

In England, Scotland and Wales, the key role of advice in preventing homelessness is also formally recognised and is a statutory requirement. There is no such statutory requirement in Northern Ireland. Our legislation only provides for advice and assistance to be given to people if they are actually found to be homeless. If people present themselves as homeless, but the decision is that they are not, then they are not entitled to advice and assistance. We are very concerned about access to advice and about the quality and level of advice being provided.

845.

I have explained the legislative changes we would like to see take place and which are necessary to improve the service for our clients. However, we are very aware that whilst these changes are necessary, homelessness cannot be solved through legislative change alone. As the Minister said yesterday, it also requires a lot of funding.

846.

The problem cannot be solved by any single agency, such as the Housing Executive, by the voluntary sector, or even by the Committee for Social Development, although it is appropriate that the Committee should take the lead.

847.

It is important to recognise that Government policies and programmes can adversely impact on the level of homelessness. This is a very complex problem, as I am sure members are aware, having sat through many similar sessions. It is multidimensional, and it merits very detailed and considered response. We need to develop a better understanding of the causes and nature of homelessness and the issues associated with it to develop appropriate responses and to form a firm base of evidence on which to plan long-term action.

848.

In Scotland the approach has been to establish a cross-departmental multi-agency task force. We need that type of approach in Northern Ireland. We recommend the model adopted by the Scottish task force, and in the papers which we have circulated to members we have provided some of its recommendations. The task force has been sitting for two-and-a-half years; therefore it is not an overnight sensation. It recently recommended 59 action points, which have been endorsed by the Scottish Executive, and a further homelessness Bill will be tabled this autumn. They have also committed a significant level of funding to implement the recommendations.

849.

We appreciate that we are asking for a fairly substantial undertaking, but the stakes are high. As the Housing Executive said in its document 'Homelessness Strategy and Services Review', which has recently been published,

"Homelessness does represent a very significant social problem and it impacts to a disproportionate extent in Northern Ireland".

850.

The price of getting this wrong is quite high, but the payback for getting it right is high, not just for the individuals and families concerned but for the Assembly as regards effectively targeting social need. In our experience, homelessness is one of the most extreme forms of social exclusion in Northern Ireland today. That is all that I want to say. I could go on endlessly, but that would not be pleasurable for either of us.

851.

The Chairperson: Before we start, you mentioned that the Minister had said something about resources being committed to homelessness.

852.

Ms Hunter: The Minister made a statement yesterday, which was reported in the paper. In it, he said that it is not legislative change, but funding, that is required to solve the homelessness problem.

853.

The Chairperson: Who said that?

854.

Ms McCrudden: It was reported in 'The Irish News'.

855.

The Chairperson: Which Minister was it quoting?

856.

Ms Hunter: The paper quoted the Minister for Social Development. I want to highlight that we agree with the Minister that we need the funding but that we also need legislative change.

857.

The Chairperson: We will read that article with interest.

858.

Mr S Wilson: Numerous organisations have appeared before the Committee over the past weeks, all of which have trained staff and resources. I imagine that there are scores of organisations that we have not contacted, because we had to narrow it down. You are not the first person to express concern about this matter, and it surprises me that time and time again we hear that that there is still - and I use your words - concern over the current quality and level of advice provided. Homelessness is one area that I would have thought that there was no shortage of advice on. Two organisations have appeared before the Committee every week, telling us about the expertise that they bring to the problem and the resources that they throw at it. However, we still come to such conclusions. Could you elaborate on the problem? First, who is giving this poor quality advice? Secondly, what additional outlets for advice are needed?

859.

Ms Hunter: One of the problems is that there is no system to regulate the quality of advice that is being provided. Therefore it is difficult to know what advice is being provided, or what the quality of it is; no one is monitoring the advice.

860.

Mr S Wilson: You have gone beyond that, however. You said that not only are there questions to be answered but also that you are concerned about the advice that is being provided.

861.

Ms Hunter: Yes, we are concerned about the quality of the advice. We do not know if it is of good quality or of poor quality. There are no monitoring arrangements. We would like a system to regulate the advice that is being provided.

862.

Ms McCrudden: The Housing Executive has a statutory duty, under the homelessness legislation, to provide advice and assistance to people. We are concerned that people who come to us for help often say that they have been handed a booklet because they are not considered to be homeless under the legislation.

863.

Ms Hunter: There is a distinction to be made between information and advice. An organisation could be considered to be providing information simply by handing a person a booklet, but that is not adequate if a person is presenting as homeless.

864.

The Chairperson: Are you talking about the advice that the Housing Executive provides?

865.

Ms Hunter: I am talking about the advice and assistance that is required to be given under statutory legislation. One of the points that we are trying to make is that the Housing Executive does not have a general duty to provide advice and assistance. Therefore, unsurprisingly, the matter is not a particularly high priority.

866.

The Chairperson: I may have interpreted him incorrectly, but I think that Sammy Wilson was making a point about advice being given on a wider basis.

867.

Ms Hunter: Yes. We are talking about providing statutory, general advice.

868.

Mr ONeill: As regards advice, and more particularly, practical support, is it the case that there are many disparate providers and that there is no coherent system? Is there a big gap to be filled? Would a strategy adequately cover that, or would it require more than just a strategy?

869.

Ms Hunter: A strategic approach to the provision of housing advice would be a significant step forward. A couple of years ago the Housing Executive carried out research into housing advice provision in Northern Ireland, and it concluded just that. While there was quite a lot of housing advice available, no one was pulling it together. There was a need to plug the gaps and to adopt a strategic approach, so that would be a positive step. However, that has to be complemented by training, monitoring and regulation systems to ensure that the quality of advice is maintained.

870.

Mr ONeill: You have had a detailed look at the issue of children leaving care. What provisions would you like to see in the legislation - and you drew attention to this specifically in your evidence - to complement the housing Bill, if we get that right, that might ensure that the young homeless that you referred to would be catered for more adequately, particularly 16- to 17-year-olds.

871.

Ms McCrudden: As far as I know, proposals under the Bill will mirror those in England. It will not be placing statutory duty on social services to provide accommodation for all care leavers, or for all 16- and 17-year-olds. However, there will be some specific circumstances under which they will be required to provide accommodation.

872.

We want to ensure that young people, who have not been in care and are not covered by proposals in the Children (Leaving Care) Bill, will not fall through the safety-net provision. We want to see that group of young people protected under the homeless legislation.

873.

Ms Hunter: It is useful that both Bills are being considered at the same time, as it gives us an opportunity to ensure those provisions.

874.

Mr ONeill: Just for the record, and to amplify this properly, how do you see the two pieces of legislation integrating? What can we provide as a result of legislation in the way of advice notes or codes of practice?

875.

Ms Hunter: We are talking about putting in place a legislative framework that will ensure that 16- and 17-year-olds who become homeless through no fault of their own will be entitled to accommodation. That is what we are trying to achieve. Is that what you are asking?

876.

Mr ONeill: Yes, but is that it, or is there also a provision needed in legislation for some kind of support, whether from social services or others? Is that a legislative matter, or is it advice or a code of practice or a code of behaviour note that is required?

877.

Ms Hunter: This is a good example of when legislation alone is not enough. Legislation has to be the basis, but it is not enough. Our understanding of the Children (Leaving Care) Bill is that it will provide support for young people leaving care and other children for whom there is a continued duty of care. There is also a need for a support package for those young people who have not been in care. We do not think that needs legislative protection. However, it is something that needs to be considered, and it is the sort of issue that should be considered if a task force were to be set up. It is also an issue that the Housing Executive has considered to some extent in the 'Homelessness Strategy and Services Review', which is out at the moment. We do not think that it needs to be in the housing legislation.

878.

The Chairperson: Sixteen to 17-year-olds make up around 25% of the homelessness statistics? Is that right?

879.

Ms McCrudden: According to the official statistics from the Housing Executive, 326 16- and 17-year-olds presented as homeless last year.

880.

The Chairperson: The figure we have relates to 16- to 25-year-olds.

881.

Ms Hunter: That is a much broader age group. They would account for about one quarter.

882.

The Chairperson: Kids aged 16 to 17 would clearly need additional support.

883.

Ms Hunter: That is exactly the point we were making.

884.

The Chairperson: When we have talked to other witnesses another issue arose, which is that homelessness is a cross-departmental matter. The Committee is concerned that this issue is not just identified as a homelessness or housing issue because it is not. When 16- and 17-year-old children live on their own without support, it is only a matter of time before they become homeless again and re-present.

885.

Ms Hunter: That is right and could be said about many people who become homeless. They need other support packages, and the Department cannot tackle the problem alone. That is one of the reasons why there should be a cross-departmental task force to look at homelessness. The problem does not exist in isolation and cannot be cured by a housing solution alone.

886.

The Chairperson: The review of the appeals procedures is important to people who have presented as homeless but whose cases the Housing Executive has considered and decided do not qualify. How do you envisage the independent appeals procedure would work?

887.

Ms Hunter: That procedure could work as a two-stage process with the first stage conducted internally, perhaps by the Housing Centre, and the second stage, if that were necessary, by an external independent tribunal. Our view is that that format should be prescribed so that there would be a right to an oral hearing, et cetera.

888.

The Chairperson: The criteria for homelessness would have to be prescribed in the housing Bill. For a tribunal to take a view it would be necessary for criteria to be established. We have the factor of discretion here, but if that is taken out of the system, then a clear definition of the criteria of homelessness is required.

889.

Ms Hunter: We are talking about the right to review a decision made under the homelessness legislation. That decision could relate to eligibility for assistance, what duties are owed, and under the discharge of those duties, suitability of accommodation offered. Those are the provisions we would be looking for. A code of guidance would also be important because that is something that the tribunal could have regard to when considering whether the appropriate decision had been reached.

890.

The Chairperson: That would include rights for 16- and 17-year-olds that they do not currently have.

891.

Ms Hunter: That is correct.

892.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Tuesday 5 March 2002

Members present:

Mr Cobain (Chairperson)

Mr Hamilton

Mr B Hutchinson

Mr G Kelly

Mr ONeill

Mr M Robinson

Mr S Wilson

Witnesses:

Paddy McGettigan,                         Project Manager, Open Door
                        Housing Association, Strabane

893.

The Chairperson: I welcome Paddy McGettigan from Open Door Housing Association, Strabane. The Committee wishes to obtain a view of rural homelessness as well as urban homelessness, and we thank you for coming here today at short notice.

894.

Mr McGettigan: I will be offering the Committee a practitioner's viewpoint, and giving an overview of what we have in Strabane, and how I feel that it is a model for dealing with homelessness.

895.

Open Door Housing Association developed a project in Strabane in May 2000. It was initially developed as 38 flats for people who were single and homeless, and special needs were not taken into account. As the project developed it became clear that other more diverse needs in the community needed to be addressed, including mental health issues and the need for temporary accom­modation. The use of the flats was changed and staffing levels were increased to provide 24-hour cover. We currently have 10 flats for people with long-term severe mental health problems; 10 flats for vulnerable people, for whatever reason - it may be lesser mental health problems, age, or a variety of things; 10 flats for resettling single homeless people and eight temporary flats for people presenting as homeless.

896.

Referrals are taken from the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, social services, the leaving and aftercare teams, the Probation Board, and self-referrals are taken out-of-hours as well. We have also taken referrals through agencies such as the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Referrals are received from a broad area, including Strabane, Derry/Londonderry, Omagh, Limavady, Cookstown, Enniskillen and Armagh. We have even had cross-border referrals, which in most cases we have not been able to take because of the funding arrangements.

897.

Experience suggests that problems such as literacy, mental health, low self-esteem and addictions are endemic in the homeless community, and we have put several measures in place to address these problems. Everyone receives a needs assessment, which ensures that they are treated individually. Having identified individual needs we address them by identifying a key worker who will work with the people, guiding them through options in training and employment opportunities, and permanent housing in the community.

898.

It is made clear to each person referred that commitment to the development programme is part of the conditions for securing accommodation in the project, since we believe that a holistic approach to the problems that have led to homelessness is the only effective way of addressing it. The programme is tailored to address physical and mental health problems, alcohol and drug dependency, cooking and domestic skills, budgeting skills and a range of other necessary skills for independent living. Staff work closely with social work teams, leaving and aftercare teams and mental health teams in addition to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive and other agencies. We have achieved very effective results, and follow-up checks indicate that after resettlement no one has returned to accommodation for the homeless.

899.

As to how well the arrangements address the issues; initially the project was for referrals over the age of 18, but almost immediately it became apparent that there was a substantial need for accommodation for young people - in particular young care leavers. Between April 2001 and the beginning of March 2002 the project received 115 referrals from various sources - a quarter being care leavers. The referrals were for the eight temporary units only, and not for any of the other flats. There are approximately 67 people on the common selection scheme list for our permanent flats. Approx­imately 18 referrals were made to the scheme through the Housing Executive, and we were able to accept and help 26 referrals in total. Our main problem is the lack of beds, which leads to the silting up of the facilities because we do not have appropriate move-on accom­modation. The lack of move-on facilities means that the temporary accommodation has lost its service potential.

900.

To specifically address the needs of young care leavers we have a working relationship with Foyle Health and Social Services Trust leaving and aftercare team to develop a unique project that will be based in the Water­side area of Derry/Londonderry. This project will be a high-tolerance facility designed to deal with six young care leavers, and will accommodate people whose needs are so great that they cannot be accepted for Dillon Court. Open Door staff will manage the project, and it will be staffed 24 hours a day. We will be fully backed-up by the leaving and aftercare team who will also provide ongoing training in issues relating to young care leavers. Unfortunately services have had to be withdrawn from another trust that has been unable to provide the type of support that we need for out-of-hour services at Dillon Court. After discussion and writing to that trust we felt we had no choice but to remove them.

901.

The problems of homelessness are addressed to a very high standard, and this has placed great demand on our services as you can see from the area that we deal with. We are making a difference to those with whom we can work, but the problem is that we cannot work with enough. Existing arrangements for dealing with homelessness are not working in rural areas. The lack of facilities means that when someone becomes homeless they are often moved out of their community. Apart from losing their home or their family contacts they also lose that community contact.

902.

The majority of young people and other homeless people referred to us from organisations such as the Simon Community or Foyle Homeless Action and Advice Service would have been referred on to hostel accom­modation in Derry. The Strabane Association for the Temporary Homeless has been there longer than we have, but they specialise in dealing with women and young mothers.

903.

Professionals often turn young people away who have been made homeless due to family breakdown, and I am talking from our experience here. It becomes a pass-the-parcel game between social work teams and the Housing Executive because no one will take responsibility for dealing with that young person. As a last resort they are sent to us, and more often than not we cannot deal with them because we do not have the accommodation. There is an inability to provide joint working relationships within statutory responsibility. Lack of other facilities makes it difficult to work to resolve the causes of homelessness, even when accommodation can be found for referrals. Training facilities for employ­ment and training opportunities are lacking in small rural communities. Even if they can get permanent accommodation it is difficult for us to teach them the skills to help them fend for themselves.

904.

Move-on accommodation is not available to any great extent, and the majority of places offered in the private rented sector are often in poor condition. Rents are set at levels that are unaffordable, especially for those under 25 years of age. In some cases I would contend that management policies used in temporary accommodation contributes to the increase in homeless­ness. Some hostel accommodation will take people regardless of their situation, which makes it too easy. For instance, a 16 or 17-year-old girl who has fallen out with her mother on a Friday night because she is not allowed to something would present herself at Dillon Court, and if we are stupid enough to take her, she becomes a homeless statistic. Most temporary accommodation in other hostels is a shared room, which increases the dangers for vulnerable people. Dillon Court is unique in that it offers the same self- contained fully furnished accommodation to temporary residents as it offers to permanent residents.

905.

From our experience in rural communities the true extent of homelessness is unknown. Many homeless people, sleep on sofas and floors of family and friends, and often do not present themselves to the Housing Executive. When people do seek help from the Housing Executive, they are given inappropriate information or no information. Application forms are often handed to applicants who are advised to complete and return them, and they can often be disadvantaged if they do not know how to represent themselves properly.

906.

Those who use temporary accommodation move from accommodation to accommodation, taking up beds between Derry, Belfast and various other areas, and we should consider how to limit the mobility of such people. They add to the statistics because different hostels send in the same figures for the same person. They never make the transition to permanent settled living because they never stay long enough in one place to learn the skills to put down roots. Some residents are using temporary accommodation for permanent residence. One hostel in Derry has residents of nigh on 10 years' standing, and therefore it is clearly not temporary accommodation. This keeps temporary accommodation in permanent use, removing that unit from the system and giving a false account of temporary accommodation units in an area.

907.

I should like to list some of the changes that I feel are necessary. A duty should be placed on the Housing Executive to provide temporary housing for people under the age of 18 until their circumstances can be fully investigated. This should also involve joint working protocols with social services. Priority need category in the legislation should be extended to 16- and 18-year-olds solely because of their age. There must be more appropriate accommodation for young people and vulnerable adults. Rents in the private rented sector should either be capped or be subject to some form of regulation to ensure fair prices for accommodation. Many landlords receive housing benefit but charge up to £25 on top of that for a single-bed flat or bedsit. There should be more effective monitoring of all temporary units to ensure that maximum use is being made of the resource, and that proper resettlement and ongoing support are provided. That will probably happen when the Supporting People programme is introduced.

(Acting Chairperson, Mr ONeill in the Chair.)

908.

More should be done to establish what the main causes of homelessness are, and resources should be targeted at prevention. For example, many young people are made homeless through family breakdown. Perhaps it would be appropriate to use more parenting programmes or intervention programmes to relieve the pressures before they reach crisis point. In many cases families in danger of self-destructing are known to social services, however, resources are either limited or at a level where intervention is not good enough. In some cases planned moves to temporary accommodation would allow space for a healing process to take place within family relationships, and this can only happen if people are allowed to remain in their community. It is necessary to have an amalgamation of the roles in housing and social work roles similar to those in England and Scotland. Homelessness is currently seen as a housing problem. Whereas the provision of accommodation will remove the immediate problem of a place to live, it will not necessarily resolve the underlying problems, and there lies the risk of repeat homelessness.

909.

There is a need for more advice to be made readily available in a way that people will understand. There should be some form of legislation or protocol that ensures that statutory, voluntary, and non-voluntary organisations co-operate fully to establish good working practices, which will ensure accountability and effective use of resources. In some cases there is still a territorial battle between housing associations and other organisations, and there is no need for that as it cuts down the effectiveness of their service. There should be adequate provision within each council area to meet the needs of the homeless community in that area. An independent body should research the provision, as much of the research in Northern Ireland is carried out by organisations that are stakeholders in homeless provision.

910.

Finances have to be made available to ensure the permanence of accommodation already in existence and the ongoing development of new accommodation to meet change. Education, even at secondary school level, should be undertaken as a preventative strategy for homelessness. In the same way that social security benefits are linked to training, we should look at ways of linking housing to training - placing responsibility of the individual to do everything possible to ensure that he maximises his chances of keeping permanent accommodation and minimises the risk of re-entering the homeless community.

911.

Rural provision of temporary accommodation should be subsidised to ensure its survival. Small temp­orary units with two, three or four beds should be integrated into larger permanent schemes, thus making them more cost-effective. The cost of the units could be spread across the cost of other units, and the main units in those facilities could sustain staff levels. Financial assistance should be readily available to ensure that training units are available in temporary accommodation schemes. There should be minimum working requirements for each staff member who works with homeless or vul­nerable people. It should also be compulsory for all accommodation providers to carry out stringent back­ground checks on staff through the PECS register. Currently that is not being carried out, as there are cases where people who have not been vetted are dealing with vulnerable people. There should be greater use made of floating support models, especially within rural commun­ities, to provide ongoing support to enable people to remain within the community.

912.

Many organisations are trying to be innovative to develop services that will meet the current needs as well as the changing needs of the homeless community. In some cases housing associations and homeless organisations are more intent on their own survival than addressing the needs of the users. As they currently operate, many organisations will not be able to meet the requirements under the Supporting People initiative, and some organisations may even miss out. The long-term sustainability of some organisations will be affected if they do not have their submissions for Supporting People finances implemented in time. At the same time, some larger organisations are losing the whole ethos of dealing with homelessness. They are now more concerned with maximising income and developing and increasing their capacity.

913.

In the past, the building costs of Open Door were funded 100% by the Department for Social Develop­ment. Special needs management allowance has been claimed, and rental costs have been set to cover staffing costs. In April 2003 there will be a change and support costs will be retrieved through the Supporting People fund. Future developments will also have their support costs met by Supporting People. However, there are already problems with sourcing finances for costs associated with implementing transitional housing benefit and Supporting People.

914.

The new project we are about to open in Derry/ Londonderry ran into difficulties and money was deducted from us through the transitional housing benefit scheme. That has been sorted out, but it is still unclear, from a Supporting People and the transitional housing benefit perspective, how organisations should make their applications, and what will and will not attract money. We need more information on those issues, as they will affect long-term homelessness.

915.

The Acting Chairperson: I know you were concerned about transient members of the homeless community, and I hope you have no objections about transient Chairpersons. I have taken over the Chair by prior arrangement with the Chairperson. I particularly want to thank you because I know that the Committee were anxious to hear a rural view and your presentation was put together at short notice. The Committee is thankful to you for that.

916.

You made a number of interesting comments and some frank observations about existing arrangements. I would like to begin with a question or two about staffing. When you spoke about starting up your project, you talked about identifying needs. What standard of training does your staff require to be able to cope with some of the difficulties of analysing and identifying needs, especially among young homeless people? You also said that you received referrals from rural areas and you mentioned several towns. How do you get referrals from rural towns and districts?

917.

Mr McGettigan: The majority would be self- referrals - people would actually turn up at the scheme.

918.

The Acting Chairperson: You also said that everyone who came in had to have a commitment to the project. What happens if you do not get that?

919.

Mr McGettigan: We are anxious to give everybody a chance. However, there is a high demand on the service, and we are faced with a choice - do we accept someone who will have to stay in the project because they do not have the skills to move out into the community, or do we try and work with those homeless people who want to move out to the community and fend for themselves? We would never turn anyone away if we have accom­modation available, unless there are certain circumstances that would endanger staff or other residents.

920.

However, when giving people the opportunity to take up accommodation, we encourage them to work with us. In most cases, when they see what they can do and the opportunities that can come their way, they will work with us. It is not simply a matter of filling a flat. Anybody can provide accommodation, but tackling home­lessness is a different issue, and that is what we are trying to do.

921.

The Acting Chairperson: What about the staff- training aspect?

922.

Mr McGettigan: Regarding staff training, wage levels have a direct relationship to qualifications. Even people with more formal qualifications, such as myself, are not paid well. I spent two years in England, because I could not get appropriate work here at a level that suited me after obtaining a degree in housing manage­ment and policy. Most project workers have a minimum of one year's experience working with homeless people or similar special-needs groups, which could mean working with young care leavers, but it may also mean working with the elderly or people with learning disabilities.

923.

In general, we find that when we advertise for staff, we poach people from other organisations leaving them with the problem of finding staff. The same happens with the staff trained by our organisation. The majority of people are trained on the job. A project worker's starting salary at Dillon Court is about £9,000, which is a ridiculous amount given the responsibilities that that person will have. We have one project worker on duty at night to deal with 38 people, and we are carrying out a social work role. The worker gets an additional sleepover allowance of £26 per night, which is paid separately, but it is still wholly unacceptable.

924.

In Strabane, we are faced with the situation that the mental health team finish work at 5.00 pm and we have no backup. Doctors will not visit the scheme; they ask us to send people to the clinic. Many matters have implications for the homeless project, but they are not solely concerning housing or homelessness. The scheme is lacking in services. As I said, I have had to withdraw services from one of the trusts, because the out-of-hours support that we were promised was not there. For example, we phoned a duty social worker to find out about services for a young care leaver who was subject to a care order, and we were told that nothing could be done. As the previous witnesses said, this is not a matter that the Committee will be able to deal with in isolation, because it includes health issues and other matters. It will be necessary to get social work and housing staff together and get them to work together.

925.

Mr S Wilson: I want to thank you for the frankness of your presentation; it was refreshing, because not all the people who give evidence are as frank as that.

926.

I would like to go back to what you said at the start about the size of the unit in Strabane, which is for 38 people. You also mentioned the need to amalgamate some of the smaller units to get economies of scale. Some other organisations that gave evidence to the Committee said that a problem with rural homelessness is that small-scale units must deal with it. A normal sized unit is ineffective, because the homeless people are scattered all over the place. Therefore, a problem arose because it was unfeasible to provide scattered facilities. Does your experience show that if a unit were centralised, people who become homeless in small hamlets and villages would be prepared to travel to it?

927.

I was slightly confused by another point that you made. You said that if a girl fell out with her mother on a Friday night, and presented as homeless, a degree of discretion would be used. On the other hand, there should be a statutory requirement to provide temporary accommodation for 16 year olds. Are those statements contradictory? If a 16-year-old girl rowed with her parents because they would not let her go out to get drunk on a Friday night, and presented herself as homeless, would there not be a requirement to deal with her? By not dealing with those young people, are you perhaps creating unnecessary homeless statistics?

928.

Mr McGettigan: I was referring to the fact that questions are not asked and checks are not made in some hostel accommodation. The first thing I would ask a 16-year-old girl for would be her mother's address or telephone number. I would make contact with the girl's mother to explain that she has presented herself as homeless and to establish whether she has a bed for the night. We have taken that approach in some cases, resulting in the person returning home.

929.

When we opened Dillon Court, I had two objectives. We would not fill beds because we needed rent, and we would not increase the level of homelessness in the area by accommodating people, who otherwise would not have presented as homeless. At 8.00pm on a Friday night that girl would have been sent to stay with a relative before being returned to her mother in the morning, because she could not present herself as homeless to either the Housing Executive or another unit. Such a girl would come to Dillon Court now because she may have had a friend who had stayed there. The friend may have told her that it is a good place to stay because you are given your own flat. We must be careful that cases such as that do not increase statistics, and in some ways they do.

930.

Mr S Wilson: I admire the way in which you deal with such cases; it is a common-sense approach. If there were a statutory duty, would every organisation deal with cases in that way? Would there be a tendency for organisations to decide that if a person presents as homeless, they have a duty to provide accommodation, which would add to the homelessness problem? As some stakeholders want to receive extra funding, their agenda may be to ensure that there is an increase in homeless statistics.

931.

My second question referred to the size of the units. Are you content that people will travel to centralised units, or do you feel that there is a need for scattered units?

932.

Mr McGettigan: Scattered units will run into difficulties because they will not be full all the time. If the units are not occupied, staff cannot be kept in place - it would not be cost effective. We want to provide for the best and worst case scenarios. If there is a staffed unit for the elderly in Castlederg - an area with allocation problems - two of the flats could be used as temporary accommodation. Use it for a specific type of temporary accommodation, perhaps for elderly temporary accom­modation, but at least use it, rather than having permanent flats used for permanent residents only. Even in Strabane, at Dillon Court, during the summer there are months when people stop referring themselves in as great a number. They must go on holiday or something. During certain months, we may have a week where we have two flats available. If our scheme was not the size that it is, that could cause problems. In certain areas that situation may occur frequently.

933.

Considering the economies of scale, the natural thing to say is to forget about what you are going to lose in temporary accommodation, and concentrate on keeping the other flats fully occupied. Keep your voids down in those, and use the money that you are getting from the full occupancy of your permanent accommodation to cover the losses on your temporary accommodation. It works for us. Dillon Court is a success financially, but we are not looking to make money.

934.

Mr S Wilson: With regard to reaching the potentially homeless or the homeless in outlying areas, is there a hindrance because they must come into the town?

935.

Mr McGettigan: No, we have people who have come from all over the district. They see the quality of accommodation and the support services. They may be dislodged from their immediate community, but they are still in their generalised community. They are not moved to Derry, which most people in the Strabane area would see as foreign parts. It would be like taking someone from 30 miles outside of Belfast and putting him or her in a hostel in the centre of Belfast - it is a whole different way of life. At least Strabane is at a pace that most people can cope with. Omagh is close enough. Referrals from further away tend to be people who are transient anyway and would not be from a particular community. That has not been so much of a trauma for people.

936.

To touch on the bit about the statutory respons­ibility, I am not necessarily saying that there should be a statutory responsibility for that person to be accommodated out of hours. If the Housing Executive receives someone in its office during the day, there should be a statutory responsibility for it to do all that it can to find out the background of that person and to ensure that social services are involved. If necessary, the Housing Executive should provide them with temporary accommodation until all measures can be put in place to ensure that that person is safe.

937.

There are 16- and 17-year-olds out there on their own, and they are not safe. We have been asked recently to consider taking referrals from one of the care homes for people as young as 14 years of age. It is getting worse, and that is the direction that things are going.

938.

Mr G Kelly: I do not want to lean too heavily on the example, but your last comment was on the area that I was talking about. To use the example, what happens if the young person says that they do not want to give you their parents' phone number?

939.

Mr McGettigan: If it were a matter of their safety, we would take them in.

940.

Mr G Kelly: Returning to the statutory duty, does that mean that you would put that young person up - who may or may not show outward signs of distress - and then investigate? If they requested that you do not approach their parents, would you automatically go to the statutory bodies, or what would you do?

941.

Mr McGettigan: Our main point of contact out of hours would be a duty social worker. I will be frank again; I have upset everybody else, so I may as well upset the duty social workers. In my experience, their out-of-hours service is worse than useless.

942.

Mr G Kelly: You are being very frank.

943.

Mr McGettigan: There is no point giving you information simply to massage other people's egos.

944.

Mr G Kelly: Somebody who has been abused or who is in a terrible situation may present as homeless, but his or her difficult circumstances may not be immediately apparent. Do those people have a statutory right to be housed? Are you saying that those people should be housed, at least until more can be found out about their situation?

945.

Mr McGettigan: It should be the statutory responsibility of the Housing Executive to ensure that young people who present themselves within office hours are put in contact with social services, and are housed as a protective measure, until the reasons for their homelessness become apparent.

946.

Mr G Kelly: Why do you not also deal with those people who present themselves out-of-hours?

947.

Mr McGettigan: Our problem with out-of-hours provision is that we do not have the necessary back-up, hence my comments about the duty social-work team. Current provision is ineffective, therefore the issue must be dealt with by health boards and housing organisations.

948.

Mr G Kelly: You touched on how difficult it is for statistics to reflect hidden homelessness, and the problems encountered in trying to improve homeless people's prospects. You also mentioned limiting mobility - can you explain what you mean by that, and what can be done about it?

949.

Mr McGettigan: Better communication between organisations is needed. Some of the bigger homeless organisations have accommodation in Derry and Belfast, and know that people frequently transfer from hostel to hostel. That is fine if they transfer for specific reasons, for example, family commitments. However, many people transfer for inappropriate reasons. Some people are well known within the housing field for continually transferring from hostel to hostel throughout the Province - and I would not like to guess at their reasons for doing so.

950.

I am trying to show the link between co-operation among those who work in the housing field and provision of accommodation for homeless people. Just as un­employed people are required to try and find employment, homeless people should be required to try and acquire the skills necessary to ensure that they have the best possible chance of staying in the community in which they have been resettled, through the provision of services that are provided within the temporary accommodation sector. That should also include ongoing support from the organisations that are dealing with homelessness and the floating support models.

951.

The Acting Chairperson: How many people have you provided accommodation for over the years? When you say that no homeless people have returned to your organisation, and that it has 26 spaces, what do you mean by that? Do you mean one tranche of 26 people, or several tranches?

952.

Mr McGettigan: We have eight units, so between April 2001 and the beginning of March, we have been able to house only 26 people. We have resettled 18 people in the past year and none have re-presented as homeless.

953.

The Acting Chairperson: Has the organisation been up and running for only one year?

954.

Mr McGettigan: No, it was set up in May 2000. The project was initially opened for permanent accommodation in May, and was reopened in June 2000 for temporary accommodation. There was a lead-in period when we had accommodation available. However, as word got around to social work teams and the various agencies that we were providing a service that was not being provided in other areas, the number of referrals started to increase. That increase began about September of last year, and it has spiralled ever since. Although we keep a record of referral figures, we can no longer keep pace with the referrals because they are coming through so fast. If we get a referral that we cannot handle, we pass it on to another agency - either the Strabane Association for the Temporary Homeless (SATH), or more often, to an agency in Derry.

955.

The Acting Chairperson: Thank you very much for your contribution. The Committee will meet to make recommendations vis-à-vis the Housing Bill, and no doubt you will know the outcome of those meetings in due course. Perhaps you may see some of the things you have been talking about.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Tuesday 12 March 2002

Members present:

Mr Cobain (Chairperson)

Mr Hamilton

Mr O'Connor

Mr ONeill

Mr M Robinson

Witnesses:

Mr T McCann                        )

Ms R Rowledge                        )                        Council for the Homeless

Ms N Toman                        )                        (Northern Ireland)

956.

The Chairperson: I would like to welcome Mr Tom McCann, Ms Ricky Rowledge and Ms Nuala Toman from the Council for the Homeless Northern Ireland.

957.

Ms Rowledge: My name is Ricky Rowledge, and I am director of the Council for the Homeless Northern Ireland. Tom McCann, who is our chairman, has 25 years experience of managing the Ormeau Centre in Belfast, and Nuala Toman is our policy and information officer.

958.

I would like to thank you for giving us the opportunity to present evidence. We recognise that it has been a long haul since your inquiry began in December. We are the umbrella organisation that represents the more than 85 groups in the sector, and we provide information, support and networking advice. We would like to summarise some of the points that have been raised in previous evidence sessions; Ms Toman will focus on a few areas that have come up regularly over the past few months, and I would like to talk through the three areas on which the inquiry focuses.

959.

As you have been told, homelessness figures for Northern Ireland is the highest in the UK, which is surprising. We are fortunate that we do not have as many people living on the streets as elsewhere in the UK. We have over 12,000 homeless households this year, and those range from one person to a large family that present as homeless to the Housing Executive. Many people also go directly to temporary accom­modation projects, either because they do not know that they can access assistance from the Housing Executive, or they feel that that assistance would not help them find temporary accommodation, so they find it themselves.

960.

Homelessness has increased by 15·5% in the past year. That jump is significant - perhaps because the selection scheme and Housing Executive assessments under that scheme have changed. There is also a small increase due to the civil disturbance in Northern Ireland. On the whole, the figure of 11,000 to 12,000 homeless households per year is static, and that is a substantial number.

961.

That figure for Northern Ireland is made up of those who present to the Housing Executive, approxi­mately 50% of whom are single. Single homeless people have more difficulty accessing permanent accom­modation. We must also realise that occupancy in temporary accommodation projects is around 90%. Many projects that take statistical evidence - such as the Simon Community - turn away twice as many people as they can accommodate, because there is no room for them. Therefore homelessness is a big problem.

962.

We were asked to examine relevant legislation in the rest of the UK. In many ways, we lag behind the homelessness strategies of other devolved Governments. However, legislative positions vary in the UK. The National Assembly for Wales has extended priority groups. The Welsh Government have taken particular interest in rough sleepers and produced recommendations as to how they will deal with that problem.

963.

The Scottish Parliament has been the most progressive of all the legislatures. It set up a task force that worked for two years before publishing its final report last week. That report has some radical proposals for dealing with homelessness, and I will discuss some of those recommendations later. It is expected that a new Homelessness Bill will be enacted in Westminster in 2002, and that Bill moves away from the Housing Act 1996 on which our new Housing Bill may be modelled. In Westminster they realise that that Act had severe limitations and exacerbated homelessness in many areas. We do not want to fall into that trap - we want to learn from their mistakes and ensure that we expand our duty to homeless people.

964.

A task force to look at homelessness has been set up in the South of Ireland. Local authorities now have a legislative duty to produce homelessness strategies. They have not got far with that, and their services are not of the same calibre as ours, but they realise that it takes legislation and the power of Government to ensure that Departments and statutory and voluntary agencies do something about homelessness.

965.

We will make some recommendations on the basis of that introduction. First, we should look closely at what has been done in Scotland, where emphasis was placed on the prevention of homelessness. The factors that lead to homelessness will not change significantly in our current social climate. Family and relationship breakdown and domestic violence will always cause difficulties, as will poverty and unemploy­ment, which can lead to repossession and eviction. There will always be people who suffer from mental health problems and addiction problems. Those factors will not change, so we must consider a strategic way to address the problems. We are not doing well in that area at present.

966.

Many people are spending long periods in temporary accommodation. They receive only minimal support, and the necessary resources are not available to enable them to move into the community. Perhaps we should follow the Scottish model, by bringing together an interdepartmental working group to consider the matter. This cannot simply be the responsibility of the Department for Social Development. Homelessness is not only a housing problem. Homelessness requires the involvement of every Department. We must examine ways in which we can encourage homeless people into employment, and ensure that they have the same access to healthcare services as everyone else. There should be a panoply of support services. This approach will be more cost-effective in the long term.

967.

A more strategic use could be made of existing resources in the sector, but additional funding will also be needed. Surveys that were conducted in England show that if good support services are provided for people when they move back into permanent accommo­dation, a great deal of money is saved on voids and the prevention of the inappropriate use of health services. People will be steered towards the appropriate existing services in the statutory sector. In the long term, this approach will be more cost-effective.

968.

We welcome the fact that the Housing Executive has been proactive in putting together a homeless strategy, without a legislative duty to do so. However, we argue that a legislative duty should be imposed. At present, the chief executive and staff of the Housing Executive are very sympathetic to homelessness. However, staff will be replaced over time. Homeless people deserve to be protected, irrespective of who is in power in statutory agencies. Therefore, we ask the Committee to take responsibility for imposing a legislative duty on the Housing Executive to produce a strategy. That strategy should be monitored, either by the Department of Social Development or an interdepart­mental working group, to ensure that the recommen­dations are followed. Again, finance is needed to underpin that and to realise the strategy. As in Scotland, we are looking for finance over the next 10 years, rather than tomorrow.

969.

Emphasis must be placed on the prevention of homelessness, which means that we must address education in schools. Young people need to learn independent living skills. Many young people move out of home, not because they are experiencing difficulties, but because they are at an age where they are ready to live independently in the community. However, they do not receive the education that will assist them to do that. Therefore, many are evicted from their properties and have to stay in temporary accommodation.

970.

We will be considering the introduction of debt counselling and mediation services for family breakdowns and neighbour disputes. A range of services should be introduced to help prevent homelessness. Prevention is the main way to reduce homelessness statistics. We also need to ensure a variety of options for those who will never be able to live in unsupported accommodation. Some people will never be able to live completely independently, so we must ensure that appropriate services are provided for them.

971.

Ms Toman: First, I will address what happens to people who are classified as being non-statutory homeless or who do not achieve full-duty applicant status from the Housing Executive. Such people are entitled to advice and assistance from the Housing Executive, but not necessarily to accommodation. They normally self-present to the voluntary sector, remain in unsuitable housing, or take a variety of unsuitable temporary measures such as sleeping on friends' floors or sleeping rough.

972.

Youth homelessness in Northern Ireland is an issue that the Committee has heard about many times already, and it has increased by 15% in the past four years. The Housing Executive has acknowledged that the 16-25 age group has specific identifiable needs. Only about 25% of 16-25 year-olds are given full-duty applicant status, which means that the remaining 75% have to move towards non-statutory methods.

973.

There is a clear distinction between the young homeless person and the "traditional" or "visible" homeless person that is often portrayed in the media. Specific difficulties are encountered when trying to accommodate the needs of young homeless people in non-specialist hostels. It would obviously be more beneficial for young people to be housed in accommo­dation specifically suited to their needs.

974.

Many young homeless people come from a care background. It is estimated that between 20% and 40% of young care leavers may become homeless. It is vital that the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety takes that on board, and investigates the housing problems they face. We must also consider that young people have multiple and complex needs that must be catered for by adequate service provision and support and that, in some instances, effective resettlement is difficult to achieve.

975.

We recommend that the priority need category in the current legislation be extended to include 16-18 year-olds on the grounds of age. We also advocate the provision of proper and adequate support services and ask for the removal of benefit restrictions for under-25s. In addition, we ask for the provision of specially designed emergency and permanent accommodation for young homeless people, the regulation of the private-rented sector and that all hostels be resourced to provide single rooms.

976.

Little research has been carried out into the issues facing homeless women in Northern Ireland. In 2000-2001, 2,062 female applicants presented them­selves as homeless to the Housing Executive. That figure has increased by 23% since 1991. There are 53 voluntary sector hostels in Northern Ireland, 17 of which are women-only hostels, and 15 of which are specifically for women and children who have experienced domestic violence or abuse. A total of 636 applicants stated on their application form that they had become homeless because of domestic violence. At the risk of generalising, if we presume that all those applicants are female, the needs of over 1,400 women fell outside the remit of services provided by Women's Aid.

977.

It is worth noting the risk of violence and abuse that homeless women are exposed to when staying in mixed hostels. Simon Community research shows that women have highlighted the need for a safe area, privacy, the choice of shared or self-contained accommo­dation, cleanliness and the opportunity to gain life skills. Our organisation recommends the provision of specially designed emergency and permanent accommo­dation for homeless women, and the provision of information and advice services tailored for their specific needs.

978.

Rural homelessness is likely to be as prevalent as urban homelessness, but exact data on the extent of rural homelessness is extremely difficult to gather. Homeless people living in rural areas have few options, and suburbanisation has increased the cost of rural housing. Even when hostel provision exists, homeless people in rural areas may favour other options because of the stigma associated with homelessness, particularly in a small community.

979.

In 1991, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive published research on rural housing policy, which highlighted the significant problems of unfitness, lack of amenities and disrepair in rural areas. Little progress has been made since that report was published. In February this year, the Housing Executive launched a major research project that is going to focus on the issue of rural housing and homelessness. We also feel that there are things that can be done in the interim.

980.

If the social housing stock in rural areas is small, re-lets are low, or there is little stock available, rural dwellers do not necessarily put their names forward for the Housing Executive list. Therefore, that does not necessarily reflect demand. Also, the Housing Executive has said that the indication of housing stress in the waiting list form has long been inconsistent with what actually happens in rural areas.

981.

We at the Council for the Homeless recommend the development of rural outreach Housing Executive offices. We ask for a review of the housing demand/supply relationship. We press for an alteration to the traditional type of Housing Executive new build, to ensure that the housing product is seen to be both appropriate and accessible by the rural population. We also ask for the provision of specially designed emergency and permanent accommodation for young people in rural areas.

982.

We picked out several areas to indicate how far people would have to travel to access services. If you are from Ballygawley and want to access the Housing Executive, you will have to travel around 20 kilometres to Dungannon to access services. In total 342 people presented as homeless in Dungannon, but only 30% were catered for. We also considered Glenarm. People from Glenarm would have to travel approximately 15 kilometres to Larne to access services. In Larne, 232 have presented as homeless, and 31% got full-duty applicant status.

983.

Furthermore, people from Claudy would have to travel 15 kilometres to Derry for provision. The rural homeless must relocate. If they do not access services in their vicinity, they will float toward a city. It would obviously be more beneficial for them and providers if they could work closer to home.

984.

Ms Rowledge: Tom McCann is going to answer your questions and give a practitioner's point of view. I want to conclude by saying that our main recommendation is that you press for an interdepartmental structure in how to cope with homelessness. Homelessness is not just about housing. It is not just about the provision of extra housing, which we need. It involves the provision of sufficient housing and housing of the right kind. Any approach to homelessness must deal with all the elements of the picture that is homelessness today in Northern Ireland.

985.

The Chairperson: The issues have become crystallised as we have gone through this. We must focus on the departmental working group. That has come strongly through, as have all of the proposals that have been put before us.

986.

I want to ask about housing finance. We are having difficulty in breaking down the support element. The Department is being driven toward separating housing benefit and support, paying housing benefit out to organisations such as Shelter and the Simon Community and then bidding for the support costs. There are inherent dangers in that. Do you want to comment on that?

987.

Mr McCann: Breaking down the support costs and management costs has been a problem for the providers. There is a certain cost to running the Ormeau Centre, which I managed, each year. We are being asked to split that cost into support and management. The overall cost is how much it takes to run the place. Whether it is called support or management does not matter; having the money to run the project and provide services for vulnerable individuals matters to us. Basically, we are working to formulas and guidance we are receiving from the Housing Executive and other organisations in terms of the split, and the guidance is that there should be a 60:40 split.

988.

Ms Rowledge: It is of concern to our sector that while housing benefit has been demand-led, it looks as if the Supporting People Fund will be ring-fenced, which is part of the difficulty. Having worked in the area for a long time, many of us have seen what happened with the social fund. Money could be withheld at the beginning of a bid, or left over at the end, which was not necessarily distributed appropriately.

989.

Secondly, ring-fencing does not take into con­sideration any fluctuations in demand, or the development of new services. That is a major concern. Also, within that ring-fenced pot, what priority will be given to groups that provide sheltered housing - which has people with learning disabilities and mental health problems - and tackle homeless in general? If the money now in the homelessness field goes into this pot, can there be any guarantee for service providers that we will get the same amount of money?

990.

We will recommend flexibility in this. Although the basics seem to be the same in England, Scotland and Wales, it is being administered slightly differently there. It would be ideal if the Supporting People Fund were also demand-led.

991.

The timescale we are working to at present is not realistic, and we may have to look at this over the introductory period of 2003-06. Although from your point of view Supporting People will be a financial headache to administrate, it does offer scope for our sector. It gives us the opportunity to fund services that we previously have not been able to fund, such as floating support services in the community. The scheme also has very strict rules and regulations on accreditation, quality and monitoring standards, which the Council for the Homeless and our members will be glad to see. It focuses on the individual, and that is good.

992.

Mr Hamilton: Can one of you give a casework example, to show us exactly what you do?

993.

Mr McCann: I can give you dozens. We are talking about multi-complex needs, which is a growing problem in all homelessness projects. Multi-complex needs are a combination of factors such as homelessness, learning disability, offending history, health-related problems, mental illness, addiction - a whole range of combinations of those things. There is no such thing as just homelessness. There is a whole range of problems attached to it.

994.

One person I have worked with for 20 years - we will call him Jimmy - has been a street alcoholic, with a chronic addiction, over many years. In his early 20s he had a range of mental health problems. Jimmy has gone through all the systems in Northern Ireland, and in fact he became so hard to manage that he ended up in an institution in Scotland for many years. Eventually he came back to Northern Ireland and continued to sleep rough in the streets. I came across Jimmy about 20 years ago when he was barred from everywhere. He was barred from the Ormeau Centre, where I later came to work, for trying to set the place on fire. He broke in one night, got a load of files and lit a bonfire. That is the kind of behaviour we are talking about. Having said that, through working with him over the years we were able to get his drink problem under control, and provide him with accommodation. We managed to get him resettled into the community, where he stayed for three years, against all odds. Unfortunately, after three years he was intimidated out of the area.

995.

He returned to the Ormeau Centre three months ago to live in the crèche facility, which is a big room with 10 or 12 beds. The Ormeau Centre is a 33-bed unit, plus the crèche facility. After some weeks we noticed that his health was deteriorating rapidly. He lost weight and would not eat, and he complained of a lot of pain. Eventually we got him to the hospital because he was reluctant to see a doctor or go anywhere near a hospital.

996.

He was diagnosed with lung cancer. After a week he was discharged from hospital; the doctoes said that he was fit enough to look after himself and they could do nothing more for him. He was given two weeks to live, but we did not accept that. We challenged the decision and got a range of supports in such as nursing services, and we found him a room. That is Jimmy's history over the past 20 years. His family did not want to know him for many years but is now reconciled with him to the point where a sister offered to take him home with her. His sister has young children and he did not want to be a burden on her. He wanted to be in the place where he is now, which he regards as his home.

997.

Mr Hamilton: Do you have any strategy for dealing with people who are intentionally homeless?

998.

Mr McCann: If someone does not have a roof over his head, he is simply homeless as far as we concerned.

999.

Mr Hamilton: Yes, but under the legislation they are classed as being intentionally homeless.

1000.

Mr McCann: If people are homeless and without a roof over their heads, they have a range of needs. A 17-year-old girl was referred to us a couple of weeks ago as intentionally homeless. She was sleeping rough in a car outside her boyfriend's house. She had been to the Housing Executive and was regarded as intentionally homeless. She had had a row with her parents and could not go back there. She went to many hostels but, unfortunately, her boyfriend followed her and created a nuisance. She was barred from the hostels, which was why she ended up sleeping rough. In spite of a long history of abuse in the family, she was still regarded as intentionally homeless. She is now in a hostel with support from the social services and others. There is a non-molestation order against her boyfriend, and she is now, for the first time in her life, addressing her problems. However, the legislation would still class her as intentionally homeless.

1001.

Ms Rowledge: The "intentionality" clause in the new Housing Bill will be strengthened, especially in the area of anti-social behaviour. The Scottish report makes interesting reading. It says, quite rightly, that even if someone under legislation is deemed to be intentionally homeless, there is no point in moving the problem from Point A to Point B because it still remains a problem.

1002.

Scotland has different sorts of tenancies from us. If someone is deemed intentionally homeless or is evicted from his home due to anti-social behaviour, he is given a short-term Scottish tenancy. As part of that tenancy agreement, he must accept counselling to deal with whatever caused him to be intentionally homeless, for example, offending behaviour or debt.

1003.

If he accepts that programme and works appropriately, the tenancy becomes permanent. If the relationship breaks down and the mediation and support do not work, he is still guaranteed temporary accommo­dation. It is vital to recognise that no matter whether people are homeless intentionally, they are still homeless and we have to try to find them somewhere to live. It is also a good idea if, when doing that, we can tackle what caused the problem in the first place.

1004.

Mr McCann: I have another example of someone who was regarded as intentionally homeless. A few years ago we worked with a woman who had a child with mental health problems. She was asked to leave the house by the social services for the good of the child, because her behaviour was so disruptive. Her husband looked after the child, and the woman was regarded by the Housing Executive as intentionally homeless in spite of what had happened. She slept rough on the streets or stayed in hostels. She became a bag lady, and her mental health deteriorated rapidly.

1005.

The mental health services said that she did not have a mental health problem but a personality disorder, and after years of working with her, psychiatrists changed the diagnosis and began treatment. She was in hospital for six months, and when she left she was totally changed. Six months later she got her life back together and was able to return home, and she has been there now for three years. That was not a miraculous intervention - that was good work on the parts of people whose job it was to help her, and without it she would still be on the streets of Belfast where everybody would know her and say that she was quietly mad.

1006.

Mr O'Connor: You say that Scotland has an overall strategy. In considering such a strategy for us, why do you believe that the Department for Social Development (DSD) is the right Department to take on that role when you said that you want the Housing Executive to develop the strategy? Surely the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, the Department of Education and the Department for Employment and Learning should all have a role to play?

1007.

You referred to my area of Glenarm and Larne and said that of 232 people who presented as homeless, 31% were granted full duty applicant status. There are over 300 voids in Larne, so there should not be a homelessness problem because there are more houses available than we can allocate to people. Given our special circumstances in Northern Ireland, how do we deal with people who do not want to live in a particular estate because one or other section of the community dominates it? This is costing the Housing Executive money, because 600 people are getting housing benefit through private landlords there.

1008.

Your submission discussed housing benefit and the fact that single people under 25 are only allowed a bedroom in shared accommodation. Is that not contrary to Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act under which public authorities must not discriminate on the grounds of age? Can anything be done to bring that strategy into line with the legislation to prevent discrimination? For example, a mentally-ill person has a disability and should not be discriminated against on the grounds of that disability. Who leads and drives the strategy?

1009.

Ms Rowledge: The Housing Executive works to the DSD and under that Department's auspices produces the whole homelessness strategy, so while we want the Committee for Social Development to have an input into the legislation, DSD will have overall responsibility for its outworking. The Housing Executive has produced a homelessness strategy because it is the agency with statutory responsibility. It is an excellent strategy, but it will never work unless the other agencies and Departments that have, or should have, something to do with homelessness, sing from the same hymn sheet and are equally committed to it. The Housing Executive cannot drive it forward alone.

1010.

People in Scotland established a task force which almost stood as a separate Government entity. It had the right people on board - representatives from all the government agencies, whether from employment, health, social services or housing and statutory providers. When the homelessness strategy was produced, they all worked together, and everyone played his part and recognised his responsibility for part of the strategy. Do you follow my argument?

1011.

Mr O'Connor: Yes. Do you think anything can be developed through new TSN or the health action zone?

1012.

Ms Rowledge: Health is a notoriously difficult area - we could talk forever about homelessness and health, but it is not a priority in the Health Service. Even access to GPs is difficult for the homeless; they are stigmatised and do not get their citizenship rights from in the Health Service. We have been pressing, along with many of our members, for homelessness to be recognised as a priority under New TSN. That would be a start, an interdepartmental holistic focus on the problem, and we would press for that. That might be the starting point in Northern Ireland.

1013.

I cannot answer Mr O'Connor's question about vacant houses in his area, particularly Larne, where fewer people present as homeless than there are vacant houses. That is dependent on the wider political climate. There must be changes in how society views itself. However, if we are looking at that with housing and communities, that is the way forward.

1014.

Mr O'Connor: Your submission refers to the regulation of private landlords. The Housing Executive has 300 empty properties. Should, or could, housing benefit be paid only to a private landlord when other suitable accommodation was not available?

1015.

Ms Rowledge: That is a very sensible idea, but it would be very difficult to put into practice. People do not want to live in certain areas because they are afraid of intimidation, and they cannot be penalised or told that they cannot stay in privately-rented accommodation because there are vacant social properties for which it would be better to pay housing benefit.

1016.

Mr McCann: There are examples of good practice elsewhere, in Scotland, England and Wales, for instance, and a range of ideas for community safety and estate management that we can use. The Housing Executive has been creative in bringing in concierges, doing up flats, improving security and having independent areas that are closed off to residents only. A range of creative ideas can be looked at, if the money and the will are there.

1017.

Mr ONeill: Which Departments and what issues would you like to see targeted by the interdepartmental working group? You press the case dealing with 16- to 17-year-olds leaving care. Have you examined the Children (Leaving Care) Bill and what are you views on it? The presentation referred to specialist services for those with multiple needs. Can you expand on that? Did a death last week highlight the need for specialist services? Your submission also referred to the significant level of latent demand for rural housing that remains unidentified and unresolved, but you did not suggest how that should be tackled.

1018.

Ms Toman: The interdepartmental approach should include Health, Education, Employment and Learning and Social Development. All those Departments could have an impact on the lives of homeless people. We have talked about homeless action zones, which could mirror the health action zones and address the problem by combining homelessness with work on anti-social behaviour. That would be better than what is proposed in the Housing Bill, which is simply to streamline eviction. An interdepartmental approach would tackle homelessness, anti-social behaviour and resettlement and look at employability, education and health provision.

1019.

To address the identification of latent need and demand for rural housing, we proposed that the Housing Executive should establish outreach offices to deal with housing allocation and other issues relating to housing and homelessness.

1020.

Ms Rowledge: We have been commissioned by the Housing Executive to research the problem of access to rural housing. As an umbrella organisation, we will draw together a steering group of people who work on temporary accommodation in rural areas and the rural community network. Research has to be the starting point, because we know so little. We want to discover the extent of need, locate the gaps in services and make recommendations for addressing them. That research will begin this year, and we will keep everybody informed of its progress.

1021.

Mr ONeill: There are several rural housing problems to be addressed There is the matter of pride. Even people who suffer homelessness, and particularly older people, still have their pride: they do not want to let themselves down by going to a homelessness unit or housing officer. Then there are others in isolated areas with homelessness in their families that is hard to identify. I met someone living over a cattle shed with a mattress who did not see himself as homeless.

1022.

Ms Rowledge: Some of the research will be quantitative, but much will be qualitative. We will be talking to people who often have to travel long distances to temporary accommodation because of pride or because nothing else is available. We will talk about their experiences and then, perhaps, extrapolate how many are in that situation. We may never be able to tie it down though. I hope we will be able to suggest rural information sources that are less intimidating or damaging to one's pride. For example, a Citizen's Advice Bureau or the local clergy have that information. The research has not been done yet, but we will look closely at those points.

1023.

Ms Toman: I shall give an example of good practice in a rural area. I grew up in Lurgan. If someone became homeless, he was referred to Aldervale flats in Craigavon. That was not necessarily the best place to go for someone in that situation, because there was no support and it was not a particularly nice area. In recent years, a Foyer development called Mount Zion House has been available. It is located in an old convent, and people had already been using its services. People have told me that it has changed how housing and homelessness are dealt with and the community's perceptions about homeless people. That is an example of a good service.

1024.

Ms Rowledge: On the new leaving and after care Bill, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. We were all enthusiastic about the Children Act 1995 thinking that it would give more protection to young people leaving care, who would remain in the system for longer. The Act has not been very successful, and social workers have found it difficult to manage its provisions.

1025.

Young people leaving the system who become homeless are still bouncing - as we warned that they would - between the Housing Executive and the social services. It is even more difficult for those who have not been through the care system who end up homeless. The proposal in the new Bill about key workers is encouraging. However, social workers are concerned that much of their focus will be moved from social work interventions into managing money, because they will become responsible for the budget.

1026.

The current system is failing young people. I met a gentleman this morning who runs bed-and-breakfast accommodation in north Belfast, where all the residents are young people of 15, 16 and 17 years of age who have been referred to him by the social services. He has no qualified staff. He has a great heart, but his staff have not gone through a pre-employment consultancy service (PECS) or police check because he did not know that that had to be done.

1027.

The social services 'phoned him last week about a young girl who is nearly sixteen and has been staying in the bed-and-breakfast accommodation for three months. The social services said that the money they are paying will stop on the girl's birthday and that she should go to the Housing Executive, which said that it was not responsible for her. She is back in the bed-and-breakfast accommodation. That is very common. It is not heard about and is another reason for having an interdepartmental group. There must be commitment from us all to work together and deal particularly with that age group.

1028.

I do not know how the Bill will work. It is highly principled. Educating young people for independent living much earlier is excellent, but that is already happening. Foyle Trust's leaving and aftercare team has an amazing system that could be a shining example to the rest of Northern Ireland, so it has always been possible. Irrespective of the legislation, there must be good practice. Legislation and policy can be changed, but practice must also be changed.

1029.

Mr McCann: The Council for the Homeless put together a working group in 1994 that looked at mental health, addiction and other complex needs. The group comprised the two Belfast trusts, the Housing Executive and Extern. The Council for the Homeless co-ordinated the group for two years, and then the social services had to be convinced of the needs of homeless people. There were problems with getting access to GPs, psychiatric nurses and psychiatrists. Nobody would touch that client group then.

1030.

After two years, the working group raised some money and did some independent research through the health and healthcare research unit 'Don't look away'. It was published in 1996 and made a series of recom­mendations one of which was for the homeless support team, which was set up in 1998 as a year-long pilot scheme. It showed that about 200 people a year need specialist support in Belfast alone. After a year, it was regarded as extremely successful. It is now permanently funded and has been operational since. It is part of the voluntary sector because of the stigma that people feel about going to the statutory services with mental health, homelessness and addiction problems.

1031.

The team comprises two social workers, a nurse and an addiction worker. I manage it, and it liases with all the hostels and psychiatric hospitals in Belfast and any other organisation that is required. There is also an outreach service. The team is aware of John, who was mentioned earlier, and others. We try to intervene at various levels. Since then, psychiatrists, social services and other organisations take referrals from the homeless support team and offer mainstream services to that group, which was excluded for a long time.

1032.

It was good practice to use that specialist model when working with people with difficulties. One of the recommendations of the homelessness review was that that model be developed throughout Northern Ireland, and we are considering that. The review also referred to a need for support services. Creative solutions are needed to deal with multi-complex needs, and support systems must be put in place for accommodation and support services.

1033.

Ms Rowledge: We must be realistic - sometimes people go so far down the line that it is difficult to offer them any kind of help. One must take other residents and staff into consideration. To deal with a problem, we try to ensure as many intervention services as possible. Unfortunately, we sometimes find that there are people who none of us can help.

1034.

Mr ONeill: Overall, the number of people beyond help is not huge. What type of service could be put in place to cope with the changing, complex and varied problems of homelessness, and how could it best be organised? Is the Council for the Homeless best placed to lead such a service, or the Housing Executive? Is a leading force required to tackle homelessness?

1035.

Mr McCann: With regard to management, the voluntary sector is best placed to take the lead. However, an inter-agency approach involving the social services, the Housing Executive and others is needed to develop a homeless support team, and that can happen only when all the boards in Northern Ireland accept that they have responsibility for this and add it to their priorities.

1036.

Ms Rowledge: The Council for the Homeless was successful in its efforts to take the lead in this, but we also depended on having someone in the steering group with sufficient clout in the health trusts to smooth our path, help build relationships, deal with problems and ensure that the trusts encouraged social workers and psychiatrists to liaise with the voluntary sector.

1037.

Mr McCann: Initially, psychiatrists thought that they would be inundated with calls from homeless people. In the past three years, the teams have worked with 800 people in the Belfast system alone. Psychiatrists have not been swamped by any means. The team and other services pick up the work, with the support of psychiatrists and GPs to prevent clients from reaching the acute stage. Early intervention saves a lot of money.

1038.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much.