1. Background

2. Approach

3. Additional Initial Standing Orders

4. Means of Reporting

5. Minutes of Proceedings

6. Form of Orders

7. Scrutiny of Central Functions

8. Powers of the Keeper of the House

9. Members Interests

10. Future Role of Committee

11. Conclusion

12. Appreciation

 

  Appendix - Minutes of Proceedings - STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE

---

  1. BACKGROUND   1.1 The Initial Standing Orders of the New Northern Ireland Assembly were notified to the Initial Presiding Officer by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in accordance with paragraph 10(1) of the Schedule to the Northern Ireland (Elections) Act 1998, and dealt inter alia with the Business of the Assembly and the election of a Presiding Officer and of the First and Deputy First Ministers. 1.2 At the first meeting of the Assembly on 1 July 1998, a motion relating to the establishment of a Committee to draw up draft Standing Orders was accepted. The terms of the motion were as follows:- that in accordance with paragraph 15 of Initial Standing Orders, the Assembly shall establish a Committee whose terms of reference, quorum and composition are set out below. Terms of Reference To assist the Assembly in its consideration of Standing Orders and report to the Assembly by 14 September 1998. Composition Ulster Unionist Party 4 Social Democratic and Labour Party 4 Democratic Unionist Party 3 Sinn Fein 3 Alliance 1 United Kingdom Unionist Party 1 Progressive Unionist Party 1 Northern Ireland Women's Coalition 1 Quorum 8 1.3 The formal rules of Procedure implemented by the Committee are those set out in paragraph 15 of the Initial Standing Orders of the Assembly. At its first meeting held on 6 July 1998, the Committee also agreed:

• that parties should be permitted to appoint a substitute, who must be an Assembly Member, to stand in for an appointed Committee Member who is unable to attend a meeting of the Committee;

• that such a Member should be permitted to speak and vote;

• that the Assembly Secretariat should be given at least one hour's notice of any substitution;

• that parties should be permitted to appoint one observer who must be an Assembly Member to attend a meeting of the Committee in a non-speaking and non-voting capacity to facilitate continuity;

• that the Assembly Secretariat should be given at least one hour's notice of the proposed attendance of an observer at any Committee Meeting.

1.4 In addition, at a meeting held on Monday 24 August 1998, the Committee agreed that observer status should be accorded to a group of three Independent Unionist Members. When the group subsequently formed itself into the United Unionist Assembly Party (UUAP) the Committee sought and obtained agreement from the Secretary of State to change Initial Standing Orders to facilitate proper representation of the new party on Committees of the Assembly during the Shadow period. Mr Denis Watson of the UUAP who had hitherto acted as an observer joined the Committee at its meeting of 7 October 1998. 1.5 The Committee met for the first time on Monday 6 July 1998 and on 21 subsequent occasions. The Membership of the Committee is as follows: Alliance Party Mr S Close Democratic Unionist Party Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP Mr N Dodds Mr G Campbell Northern Ireland Women's Coalition Ms J Morrice Progressive Unionist Party Mr D Ervine Sinn Fein Mr C Murphy Mr F Molloy Mr J Kelly Social Democratic & Labour Party Mr S Farren Mr D Haughey (Joint Chairman) Ms B Rodgers Mr E McGrady MP United Kingdom Unionist Party Mr R McCartney QC MP United Unionist Assembly Party Mr D Watson Ulster Unionist Party Mr P Weir* Mr M McGimpsey Mr D S Dalton Mr F Cobain (Joint Chairman) * Was replaced on 3 February 1999 by Mr A McFarland.   1.6 During the period the following Members have attended as substitutes: Alliance Party Mr D Ford Mr S Neeson Democratic Unionist Party Mr S Wilson Mr P Berry Mr M Robinson Mr J Wells Mr E Poots Northern Ireland Women's Coalition Prof M McWilliams Progressive Unionist Party Mr W Hutchinson Sinn Fein Mr A Maskey Mr P McNamee Ms M Gildernew Social Democratic & Labour Party Mr A Attwood Mr M Durkan Mr A Maginness Mr E O'Neill United Kingdom Unionist Party Mr N Boyd Ulster Unionist Party Dr E Birnie 1.7 Also Mr N Boyd, Northern Ireland Unionist Party has held observer status -originally for the United Kingdom Unionist Party and later, from 17 February, for the Northern Ireland Unionist Party.

8. Mr N Carson, Deputy Clerk of the Assembly, acted as Clerk to the Committee, assisted by Mr M Barnes, Clerk Assistant, for the three meetings it held in July 1998. Mr Barnes, and Mr D Arnold acted as the Committee's officers at subsequent meetings.

2. APPROACH 2.1 Upon embarking on its examination of Standing Orders, the Committee obtained the Standing Orders of a number of parliaments and legislatures, including the House of Commons at Westminster, the European Parliament and Dail Eireann, to use as a guide. Following discussion, the Committee decided to use the Standing Orders drawn up for the use of the 1973 Northern Ireland Assembly as a base on which to build. It considered how these Standing Orders could be amended and augmented to meet the requirements of the present Assembly. It also considered other material where appropriate, in particular Initial Standing Orders. 2.2 When the Northern Ireland Act 1998 came into effect on 19 November 1998 the Committee was concerned to ensure that the preliminary work it had done fully complied with the Act. This exercise took considerable time and it is only now that the Committee is in a position to report to the Assembly. 2.3 In approaching its work, the Committee took note of the fact that legislative and executive Authority will not be devolved until it appears to the Secretary of State that sufficient progress has been made in implementing the Belfast Agreement. 3. ADDITIONAL INITIAL STANDING ORDERS 3.1 The Committee has also been consulted by the Secretary of State on Additional Initial Standing Orders. Two of these - Publication of Party Lists and the Names of Nominating Officers, and, Determination of Ministerial Offices (Designate) - were made by the Secretary of State in November of last year. Others relating to the application of the d'Hondt mechanism have at the time of writing yet to be made. 3.2 The original Terms of Reference required the Committee to report on its activities by 14 September. However the scale of the undertaking coupled with the extra work required on Additional Initial Standing Orders meant that it was impossible to contemplate a full and complete report for that date. As a result an Interim Report (NNIAI) was tabled for 14 September and this was unanimously endorsed by the Assembly which directed the Committee to produce a further report on progress by 26 October. When it did so the primary legislation to implement the Belfast Agreement had still not been enacted. The Bill was undergoing heavy amendment and it was clear that the Committee was having to deal, to some extent, with a moving target.   4. MEANS OF REPORTING 4.1 The Committee now believes that it has fulfilled its remit in so far as it is possible to do so at this stage. This volume briefly describes the work of the Committee both in this text and in the Minutes of Proceedings of the Committee which are appended. The Compendium of Standing Orders is produced separately for the convenience of Members. 4.2 Earlier versions of the Committees draft were indexed but no Index has been produced with this report pending its adoption or otherwise by the Assembly. 5. MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS 5.1 Not all issues discussed and agreed by the Committee are reflected in the Compendium of Standing Orders. The Committee has discussed other items of policy that do not of themselves merit inclusion in Standing Orders but are on the record as the view of the Committee. 6. FORM OF ORDERS 6.1 These Standing Orders are a form of Subordinate legislation and should be read alongside the Northern Ireland Act 1998. In drafting the Orders the Committee has been careful not to duplicate the Act unnecessarily. However, where it has been necessary to quote large passages of the Act in order to make the Standing Orders more intelligible to the reader these are shown in bold type. 6.2 Some Standing Orders are quite technical in nature. This is unavoidable because Standing Orders in these cases are designed to implement technical sections of the Act. Reference to the Minutes of Proceedings will highlight some of the difficulties the Committee has had with these and other issues. 6.3 The Standing Orders are grouped into 9 different sections. These deal with preliminary arrangements, general rules for the operation of the Assembly, voting, legislation, ministerial appointments, committees, order, standards and privilege, and miscellaneous other orders. 7. SCRUTINY OF CENTRAL FUNCTIONS

1. Concern was expressed by the Committee that important discrete executive functions of the office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister would not, under current legislation be subject to the scrutiny of a Statutory Committee. The Committee recommends that this matter be addressed as soon as possible by the Assembly.

8. POWERS OF THE KEEPER OF THE HOUSE Standing Order 60 formally creates an officer of the Assembly with certain specific functions, although he/she of course may have other duties unspecified in Standing Orders. The Standing Order as such, when adopted, cannot, we are advised, be brought into effect without legislation in the Assembly. It is the Committee's recommendation that the Assembly, upon devolution, takes whatever action is necessary to bring this Order into effect. 9. MEMBERS' INTERESTS 9.1 The Committee has taken the view that it will be necessary to establish a Committee of Standards and Privileges as soon as possible and that the key policy considerations in this complex area should be delegated to that Committee. In consequence the Committee has produced an Order that it considers to be the minimum requirement in this area. Our aim is to do what is needed to protect the integrity of the Assembly and allow for any necessary further development. 10. FUTURE ROLE OF COMMITTEE 10.1 It is the Committee's view that work on Standing Orders should not end with this report. The purpose of Standing Orders is to enable the Assembly to function effectively and we believe the Orders as drafted will enable this to happen. 10.2 However, the Committee, as a senior Committee of the Assembly should, we believe, continue to exist as the Assembly's Procedures Committee. It could deal with matters referred to it, develop Standing Orders and supporting documentation that will assist Members in the interpretation of Standing Orders. 11. CONCLUSION 11.1 The Committee has attempted to formulate a comprehensive set of draft Standing Orders which will at once meet the requirements of the legislation and the needs of the Assembly and enable it, upon devolution of functions, to operate satisfactorily. 11.2 When the Assembly has been operational for a period, indications of a need for a re-working of some of the detail in the Orders now placed before Members may emerge. 12. APPRECIATION 12.1 The Committee wishes to express its appreciation and thanks to all those who have assisted it in any way in taking its work forward. D HAUGHEY F COBAIN

JOINT CHAIRMEN

 

APPENDIX

Minutes of Proceeding of the Committee on

Standing Orders

 

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

 

Monday 6 July 1998 at 11.00 am

in Room B4.20 (Committee Room 2)

Block B, Castle Buildings

 

Present: Mr P Weir Mr N Dodds

Mr M McGimpsey Mr G Campbell

Mr D S Dalton Mr C Murphy

Mr F Cobain Mr F Molloy

Mr S Farren Mr J Kelly

Mr D Haughey Mr S Close

Mr E McGrady MP Mr D Ervine

Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP Mr N Boyd (representing

Mr R McCartney QO MP)

Mr N Carson - Deputy Clerk (Business) in the Chair

In Attendance: Mr M Barnes

 

1. ELECTION OF CHAIRPERSON

Mr Carson indicated that as agreed at the Whip's meeting held on Thursday 2 July 1998, he proposed to take the Chair initially. Agreed: - that Mr Carson should act as Chairman for the election of the Chairperson. Mr Carson then called for nominations for the office of Chairman of the Standing Orders Committee. The following proposals were made: Rev Dr I R K Paisley MP MEP - proposed by Mr N Boyd Mr S Close - proposed by Mr M McGimpsey Mr D Haughey - proposed by Mr E McGrady MP Mr Close regretfully indicated that he could not accept nomination. Mr Carson then called for a show of hands of those in favour of Dr Paisley's nomination. Seven members indicated assent. Following discussion it was agreed that Mr Carson should remain in the Chair for the remainder of this meeting and that the election of a Chairperson should be addressed at the next meeting.

2. COMMITTEE PROCEDURES

1. Substitutes and Observers

Proposed: That parties should be permitted to appoint a substitute (who must be an Assembly Member) to stand in for a Committee Member who is unable to attend a meeting of the Committee. Further, that parties should also be permitted to appoint one observer (an Assembly Member attending in a non-speaking and non-voting capacity) to ensure continuity. [Mr Weir] Following discussion. Agreed: - that parties should be permitted to appoint a substitute who must be an Assembly Member to stand in for an appointed Committee Member who is unable to attend a meeting of the Committee;

• that such a Member should be permitted to speak and to vote;

• that the Assembly Secretariat should be given at least one hour's notice of any substitution;

- that parties should be permitted to appoint one observer who must be an Assembly Member to attend a meeting of the Committee in a non-speaking and non -voting capacity to facilitate continuity;

• that the Assembly Secretariat should be given at least one hour's notice of the proposed attendance of an observer at any Committee meeting.

1. Independent Members: Representation on Committee

2. Proposed: that the independent Members should be permitted to send one Member to the Committee as a non-speaking, non-voting observer. Following discussion during which it was pointed out that the views of the independent Members had not been received, and that their intentions regarding the creation of a cohesive grouping was unclear - Agreed: - that the Secretariat should ascertain the views of the independent Members prior to the next meeting and that the Committee should make a decision on this matter as the first item of business on the agenda of the next meeting; - that, should the independent Members decide to send an observer, their representative should be present in the building, ready to take his place, should a positive decision be made at the next meeting.   3. CONSIDERATION OF STANDING ORDERS Following discussion Agreed: - that the Secretariat should circulate to Members copies of the following Standing Orders: House of Commons, Westminster (including Select Committees) 1973 Assembly 1982 Assembly Dail Eireann EU Parliament - that the Secretariat should prepare and circulate a discussion document showing the Main Headings of the 1973 Assembly Standing Orders cross-referenced to the other listed Standing Orders. 4. ANY OTHER BUSINESS Nil. 5. DATES/VENUE ETC OF MEETINGS   Following discussion Agreed: - that the next meeting of the Committee should take place at 10.30 am on Thursday 16 July 1998 in Parliament Buildings - the room number to be advised.

• that after that date, the Committee should meet weekly on Mondays commencing on Monday 20 July 1998;

• that additional weekly meetings could be called if necessary.

There being no further business the meeting closed at 12.20 pm.    

 

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Monday 20 July 1998 at 10.30 am

in the Private Dining Room, Room 120

Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr P Weir Mr N Dodds

Mr D S Dalton Mr G Campbell

Mr F Cobain Mr C Murphy

Dr E Birnie* Mr J Kelly

Mr D Haughey Mr A Maskey*

Ms B Rodgers Mr S Neeson*

Mr M Durkan* Mr N Boyd*

Mr A Attwood* Ms J Morrice

Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP Mr W Hutchinson*

*Members acting as substitutes

In the Chair: Mr N Carson

In Attendance: Mr M Barnes

 

1. ROLL CALL

The Chairman called the roll and marked members present, noting those who were acting as substitutes in accordance with the agreement on this issue made at the first meeting. 2. OBSERVER STATUS ON THE COMMITTEE FOR A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE INDEPENDENT MEMBERS The Chairman confirmed that as requested, the Secretariat had written to the independent members seeking views on this issue. He reported that no response had been received. It was unanimously agreed to postpone this topic until the next meeting. 3. SUBSTITUTION Before proceeding to the next item on the Agenda, Mr Haughey raised a point of order relating to the previous meeting, particularly the nomination of Dr Paisley by a member who had been acting as a substitute before the Committee had agreed on the use of substitutes. Following discussion during which Dr Paisley indicated that he did not wish to stand for the office of Chairman of the Committee because of other business commitments. Agreed: that in future there should be a roll call prior to the commencement of business.

4. CHAIRMAN'S CASTING VOTE

Dr Birnie raised the question of the Chairman having a casting vote in the event of a tie. Following Discussion:

Agreed: that the Chairman should not have a casting vote, the Committee reconsidering its stance on an issue in the event of a tie.

5. ELECTION OF CHAIRPERSON

Mr Carson called for nominations for the office of Chairperson. The following proposals were made:

Mr F Cobain - proposed by Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP

seconded by Mr P Weir

Mr D Haughey- proposed by Ms B Rodgers

seconded by Mr M Durkan

Mr Carson then put the Question regarding the proposal that Mr Cobain should be Chairman of the Committee.

The Committee divided: Ayes 9 Noes 9

Ayes Noes

Mr P Weir Mr A Attwood

Mr D S Dalton Mr D Haughey

Mr F Cobain Ms B Rodgers

Dr E Birnie Mr M Durkan

Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP Mr C Murphy

Mr N Dodds Mr A Maskey

Mr G Campbell Mr J Kelly

Mr N Boyd Mr S Neeson

Mr W Hutchinson Ms J Morrice

Mr Carson then put the Question regarding the proposal that Mr Haughey should be Chairman of the Committee.

The Committee divided: Ayes 9 Noes 9

Ayes Noes

Mr A Attwood Mr P Weir

Mr D Haughey Mr D S Dalton

Ms B Rodgers Mr F Cobain

Mr M Durkan Dr E Birnie

Mr C Murphy Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP

Mr A Maskey Mr N Dodds

Mr J Kelly Mr G Campbell

Mr S Neeson Mr N Boyd

Ms J Morrice Mr W Hutchinson

Agreed: - that in the circumstances, Mr Carson should continue in the Chair;

- that parties would consider the issue prior to the next meeting when the election of a Chairman would appear on the Agenda.

6. CONSIDERATION OF STANDING ORDERS

Mr Carson referred to the material circulated by the Secretariat for the information of Members and asked how the Committee wished to proceed. He suggested that the Secretariat could, with reference to the 1973 Standing Order, prepare a list of non-contentious and more difficult Standing Orders. In addition, he read to the Committee a letter dated 9 July 1998 from Mr Paul Murphy MP, Minister of State (copy attached for information).

Following discussion -

Agreed: - that the Secretariat should produce a working draft of non contentious rules, based on the 1973 Assembly Standing Orders;

- that the working draft should also address the more contentious orders, indicating options where possible;

- that the Committee would address additional Standing Orders proposed by the Secretary of State (advised in the letter from Mr Murphy) in due course;

- that the requirements for Standing Orders outlined in the Northern Ireland Bill should also be addressed in due course.

7. ANY OTHER BUSINESS

(i) Press Issues

Agreed: - that if the Presiding Officer is content, the minutes of the meetings of the Committee to assist the Presiding Officer should be circulated to members of the Committee on Standing Orders to ensure that press issues are properly addressed;

(ii) Copies of minutes, papers et cetera to members acting as substitutes.

Following discussion.

Agreed: - that these papers should be passed on if necessary to the members attending the next meeting.

 

 

8. NEXT MEETING

Agreed: that the next meeting of the Committee should take place at 10.30 am on Monday 27 July 1998.

Noted: that Dr Paisley could not attend and would be represented by a substitute.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

cc: Committee Members

Initial Presiding Officer

Party Whips

Deputy Clerk (Business)

Second Clerk (Business)

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

 

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

 

Monday, 27 July 1998 at 10.30 am

in Room 115, Parliament Buildings

 

Present: Mr P Weir Mr S Wilson (representing Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP)

Mr D S Dalton Mr C Murphy Mr F Cobain Mr F Molloy Mr M McGimpsey Mr J Kelly Mr D Haughey Mr S Neeson (representing Mr S Close) Mrs B Rodgers Mr N Boyd (representing Mr R McCartney QC MP) Mr S Farren Ms J Morrice Mr M Durkan Mr D Ervine (representing Mr E McGrady MP) Mr N Dodds Mr G Campbell In the Chair pro-tem: Mr N Carson In attendance: Mr M Barnes 1. ROLL CALL Mr Carson called the roll and marked members present, noting those who were acting as substitutes in accordance with the agreement on this issue made at the first meeting.

2. OBSERVER STATUS ON THE COMMITTEE FOR A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE INDEPENDENT MEMBERS
Mr Carson reported that no response had yet been received from the Independent Members.
3. ELECTION OF CHAIRPERSON

Following discussion

Proposed: that the office of Chairman should be alternated on a meeting to meeting basis between Mr Haughey and Mr Cobain, with Mr Haughey chairing the first meeting. [Mr McGimpsey]

[Mr Campbell]

 

 

The proposal was agreed unanimously. Mr Haughey took the chair.

Mr Dalton joined the meeting.

4. CONSIDERATION OF STANDING ORDERS

Agreed: - to examine the working draft prepared by the Secretariat of non-contentious and other more difficult rules, which used the Standing Orders of the 1973 Northern Ireland Assembly as a base;

• to commence this examination by working through the listed non-contentious rules.

1973 Assembly

Rule No 1 Notice of First Meeting of New Assembly

(Page 3)

- Agreed following discussion.

Rule No 2 Procedure at First Meeting of New Assembly

(Page 3)

In the course of discussion, the following points were made:

• while members of the Committee were generally content that the Presiding Officer should be referred to as 'Speaker', it was noted that the Agreement reached at the multi-party negotiations referred to the Chair of the Assembly;

• it was acknowledged that the Rule needed to be redrafted to take account of the requirements in Rule 3 of the Initial Standing Orders of the New Assembly with particular reference to registering a designation of identity;

• concern was expressed at the use of the designation 'other' in Rule 3(1) of Initial Standing Orders of the New Assembly, and of the ability to change designations permitted in Rule 3(3) of Initial Standing Orders of the New Assembly, and it was agreed that these topics should be considered in detail at the next meeting.

At this point the Committee called for copies of the Northern Ireland Bill, and the Chairman suspended the meeting at 11.00 am, resuming at 11.30 am.

Rule No 3 Election of Speaker

(Page 4) 3(1) Agreed

3(2) Agreed, with the omission of 'Mr' in line 3.

3(3) & (4) Agreed, subject to redrafting in accordance with Rule 12(2) [voting: cross community support] and Rule 13 [election of Presiding Officer] of Initial Standing Orders of the New Assembly.

Rule No 4 Procedure when office of Speaker becomes vacant

(Page 5)

Agreed: - Clerk to report any vacancy to Assembly.

- Assembly to elect Speaker, election being chaired by outgoing speaker or in his absence by the Clerk.

- Where there is no agreement on the election of a Speaker, sessions will be presided over by the Deputy Speakers.

Rule No 5 Assistant Speakers

(Page 5)

Agreed: 2 deputies to the Speaker should be elected.

Noted: - that the Initial Standing Orders of the New Assembly are silent on the need for cross community support for the election of a Deputy Presiding Officer;

- that Rule 5(2) is redundant and will not be required.

Rule No 6 Roll of Members

(Page 6)

Agreed: - that Rule 6(1) should be modified to make reference to the requirement stated in Rule 3(1) of the Initial Standing Orders of the New Assembly that Members signing the Assembly's Roll of Membership should register a designation of identity;

- that discussion on the "Other" designation should be deferred to the next meeting;

- that Rule 6(2) was acceptable;

- that Rule 6(3) should be amended to refer to the requirement to register a designation of identity.

Rule No 7 Office of the Clerk and Records of the Assembly

(Page 7)

Agreed: - that Rule 7(1) and (2) were acceptable and that Rule 7(3) would require amendment as the Clerk to the New Assembly would have no powers.

Rule No 8 Quorum

(Page 7)

Agreed: - that the quorum of the New Assembly should be set at 10, as indicated in the Initial Standing Orders of the New Assembly.

Rule No 12 Pecuniary Interest

(Page 11)

Agreed: that this Rule will require redrafting to reflect the requirements on Members' Interests set out in Clause 35 of the Northern Ireland Bill.

Rule No 13 Delaying Motions

(Page 11)

Agreed: that discussion in the reformulation of this Rule should be deferred to the next meeting, the discussion to include the need to refer to Petitions of Concern (see Initial Standing Orders for the New Assembly - Rule 12(5), the need to find a better descriptive word than 'Delaying' and the need to refer to other devices eg, guillotines and closures.

Rule No 14 Business of the Assembly

(Page 12)

In the course of discussion, the Committee identified the need to establish a Business Committee of the Assembly under the chairmanship of the Presiding Officer, at which the future business of the Assembly could be discussed, agreed and scheduled.

It was agreed that the Order Paper for next day should be issued to members before the end of a sitting.

With regard to Rule 14(2) which dealt with the Order of Business, it was agreed that the Secretariat would seek the Scottish and Welsh proposals and the source of messages to the Assembly and to revisit this particular rule at the next meeting.

Mr Kelly left the meeting at 12.00 noon.

The Chairman suspended the meeting at 12 noon, resuming at 12.15 pm.

Rule No 14 Agreed: that the Secretariat should produce a re-draft of Rule 14

(Page 12) (including the Order of Business) at the next meeting.

(Continued)

 

 

5. ANY OTHER BUSINESS

5.1 DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING

Agreed: that the next meeting should take place on Monday 24 August 1998 at 10.30 am in Room 115, Parliament Buildings.

Noted: that as Mr McCartney will be on holiday, Mr Boyd will represent him at this meeting.

5.2 ADJOURNMENT

The meeting was closed at 1.00 pm.

 

 

 

 

NIGEL CARSON

Deputy Clerk (Business)

THE NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Monday 24 August 1998 at 10.30 am

in Long Gallery, Parliament Buildings

PRESENT: Mr P Weir

Mr D S Dalton

Mr F Cobain

Mr M McGimpsey

Mr S Farren

Mr E McGrady MP

Mr N Dodds

Mr P Berry (representing Mr G Campbell)

Mr J Wells (representing Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP)

Mr C Murphy

Mr S Close

Mr N Boyd (representing Mr R McCartney QC MP)

Ms J Morrice

Mr D Ervine

Mr A Attwood (representing Mr D Haughey)

Mr E O'Neill (representing Mrs B Rodgers)

Mr D Watson (see item 2 below)

IN THE CHAIR: Mr F Cobain

IN ATTENDANCE: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold

1. ROLL CALL

At the present of the Chairman, Mr Barnes called the roll and marked Members present, noting those who were acting as substitutes in accordance with the agreement on this issue. The Committee also agreed that on this occasion Mr Attwood and Mr O'Neill should be allowed to substitute respectively for Mr Haughey and Mrs Rodgers. It had not been possible, in this case, to meet the usual notification requirements established at the first meeting of the Committee.

 

 

 

 

2. OBSERVER STATUS ON THE COMMITTEE FOR A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE INDEPENDENT MEMBERS

The meeting agreed that observer status would be accorded to the group of three Independent Members and Mr Denis Watson was duly admitted as their representative on this occasion.

3. LETTER FROM SECRETARY OF STATE

It was agreed that the letter from the Secretary of State's Private Secretary of 17 August 1998 be examined in detail at the next meeting of the Committee. 4. CONSIDERATION OF STANDING ORDERS The Committee proceeded to consider the paper under cover of the minute of 10 August 1998 from Mr Carson. Mr Ervine joined the meeting.

Rule No 2(2) Designation of Identity

Agreed: That the Committee would return to the issue of the 'Other' designation at a later date.

Mr Murphy, Ms Morrice and Mr McGrady joined the meeting.

Rule No 2(4) Change of Designation

Agreed: The Committee would revisit the issue in the future.

Rules 9, 10, 11

Agreed: That these be addressed later.

Rule 12(2)(a-c)

Agreed: That the Second Clerk would come back with advice.

Rule 12(5)

Agreed: That the Committee would discuss this Rule at a later stage.

Rule 13

Agreed: To discuss later.

Rule 14

Mr Barnes reported that the Scottish and Welsh Assemblies had not yet addressed the issues raised in this Standing Order.

Agreed: That the Order of Business be revisited again.

Other Rules

Agreed: All other rules in the document of 10 August are accepted without amendment.

5. FORMS OF ADDRESS OF MEMBERS

There was a general discussion on the forms of address for Members both in relation to how they address each other and how others address them.

Agreed: That this issue be revisited again.

6. LETTER FROM PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH - OPENING MEETING WITH PRAYERS

A letter from Dr John Dunlop Co-convenor of the Church and Government Committee of the PCI was circulated to Members.

Agreed: That the contents be reflected upon and dealt with at the next meeting.

7. ANY OTHER BUSINESS

7.1 Minutes of Proceedings

It was agreed that a copy of the minutes of proceedings be deposited in the Library.

7.2 Date, Time and Venue of Next Meeting

Agreed: That the next meeting should take place on Tuesday 1 September 1998 at 10.30 am in Room 144, Parliament Buildings.

7.3 Adjournment

The meeting was closed 11.50 am.

 

 

MURRAY BARNES

Second Clerk (Business)

 

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Monday 1 September 1998 at 10.30 am

in Room 144, Parliament Buildings

 

PRESENT: Mr P Weir

Mr D S Dalton

Mr F Cobain

Mr M McGimpsey

Mr S Farren

Mr E McGrady MP

Mr N Dodds

Mr G Campbell

Mr J Wells (representing Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP)

Mr F Molloy

Mr J Kelly

Mr S Close

Mr R McCartney QC MP

Ms J Morrice

Mr D Ervine

Mr E O'Neill (representing Mrs B Rodgers)

OBSERVERS: Mr D Watson

Mr N Boyd

IN THE CHAIR: Mr D Haughey

IN ATTENDANCE: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold

1. ROLL CALL

The Chairman marked Members present, noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on this issue.

2. It was agreed on a proposal from the Chairman that the meeting would be devoted to the urgent business of dealing with a response to the letter of 17 August from the PS to the Secretary of State.

The Draft Additional Standing Orders (draft of 5 August) were annexed to the letter of 17 August and were dealt with by the Committee in order.

A2(b)

Mr McCartney proposed that paragraph A2(b) should be amended to read:

"in relation to any other group declaring itself to be a political party within the Assembly, means the person who appears to the Presiding Officer to be the leader of the group, or an officer nominated by that person for the purposes of the Standing Orders."

The proposal was seconded by Ms Morrice.

A vote was taken on the proposed amendment. This showed seven members to be in favour and three again.

Arguments made in support of the amendment are briefly summarised as follows:-

• political party is undefined;

• some parties may decide to form a coalition;

• the discretion given to the Presiding Officer at 2b is limited to deciding who the leader of the party is;

• there needs to be greater clarification of the draft.

Arguments used against the amendment were:

• the amendment might lead to possible abuse;

• common usage of language might suggest that the amendment is unnecessary;

• this is a question for parties themselves.

B(2)

Mr McCartney proposed that B(2) should be amended to read:

"A proposal under paragraph (1) above or any amended proposal shall not have effect unless it is approved by a resolution of the Assembly passed with cross-community support."

Mr Dodds pointed out in relation to this draft that Rule 12 of the Initial Standing Orders would need to be changed to reflect the cross-community requirement.

A vote was taken on the proposed amendment. This showed 10 members to be in favour and 6 against.

Arguments deployed in support of the amendment are briefly summarised as follows:

• it is always better in these circumstances to substitute certainty for doubt;

• the amendment is in keeping with the relevant Clause of the Northern Ireland Bill;

• amendment does not substantially alter the proposed Rule;

• without the amendment we would be left with a situation akin to the present Orders in Council where you vote for or against an unalterable package;

• no cogent argument has been deployed within the committee against the amendment;

• it is important that there is some accountability of the First and Deputy First Ministers to the Assembly;

• it is crucial that the system is perceived as democratic;

• consultations of the First and Deputy First Ministers with parties is only a formality.

Arguments used against the amendment were:

• First Minister and Deputy First Minister would almost certainly take into account option to the Assembly;

• Bill already makes position clear;

• no need for amendment;

• the democratic aspect has been taken care of in the referendum and elections;

• First and Deputy First Ministers hold their positions because they have the confidence of both communities. Each will have consulted within his own party.

B8 and B9

Mr McCartney and Mr Molloy proposed amendments to Rules B8 and B9, the amended rules to read as follows:

B8 - "If a person nominated under paragraph (5) or this paragraph does not take up the Ministerial office (designate) within 5 minutes (except in circumstances where the member is unavoidably absent for reasons

B9 - "If a nominating officer does not exercise the power conferred by paragraph (5) or (8) within 5 minutes, except in circumstances outlined in paragraph (8) above, the power conferred by paragraph (5) shall become exercisable by the nominating officer of the political party for which the formula in paragraph (11) gives the next highest figure."

The principles in these redrafted rules may also be applicable elsewhere (eg C(5)).

B(16)

Mr McCartney proposed that Rule B(16) be amended to read as follows:

B(16) - "Where a Ministerial office (designate) is vacant, the vacancy shall be filled by applying paragraphs (5) to (13), as appropriate, within 10 days."

C(3)

Mr Campbell and Mr McCartney proposed that Rule C(3), where "C" is defined, be amended to read as follows:

C(3) - ".. "C" is the number (if any) of Chairs and Deputy Chairs of Committees established under this Standing Order which are held by members of that party."

This applies by extension also to other paragraphs where there is reference to Chairman and Deputy Chairman. In this case 'or' has been taken as conjunctive and replaced with 'and'.

D(1)

The Committee agreed that a further draft Additional Standing Order be added as D(2) to read:

"(2) If after the relevant period of exclusion set out in (1) the person excluded is re-nominated for Ministerial office by his party he/she shall not take up office until he/she has made the affirmation required in draft Additional Standing Order B(13)."

Re-numbering of the remaining draft Additional Standing Orders in this Section will be required because of this addition.

D(5)

Mr Weir wanted it brought to the Secretary of State's attention that Rule D(5) was not written in accordance with the Bill which had three provisions (not two as in this rule).

 

 

 

 

First/Deputy First Ministerial Vacancies

Mr Farren wanted it drawn to the Secretary of State's attention that there appears to be no provision for dealing with any hiatus brought about by a vacancy arising for any reason in the positions of First Minister and Deputy First Minister.

The Committee was content with all of the above proposals.

3. OTHER RULES

The Committee was content with all of the remaining rules (ie those not cited above) in the draft of the Secretary of State's PS.

4. DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING

Agreed: That the next meeting should take place on Tuesday 8 September 1998 at 10.30 am in Room 144, Parliament Buildings.

 

2. ADJOURNMENT

The meeting was closed at 1.00 pm.

 

 

 

 

MURRAY BARNES

Second Clerk (Business)

             

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Monday 8 September 1998 at 10.30 am

in Room 144 Parliament Buildings

 

Present: Mr P Weir

Mr D S Dalton

Mr McGimpsey

Mr S Farren

Mr N Dodds

Mr G Campbell

Rev Dr I Paisley MP MEP

Mr C Murphy

Mr F Molloy

Mr J Kelly

Mr S Close

Mr R McCartney QC MP

Ms J Morrice

Mr D Ervine

Mrs B Rodgers

Mr D Haughey

Observers: Mr D Watson

Mr N Boyd

In the Chair: Mr F Cobain

In Attendance: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold

 

ROLL CALL

The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as observers in accordance with the agreement on this issue. There were no substitutes on this occasion.

MINUTES

The minutes of the 1 September 1998 were accepted and agreed.

    COMMITTEE RESPONSE TO MINISTER OF STATE ON ADDITIONAL STANDING ORDERS Members went through the draft documents prepared for the Minister of State in relation to additional Standing Orders paragraph by paragraph and the following changes were made:

• Covering letter to be amended to include reference to Standing Orders arising from amendments to the Northern Ireland Bill.

• Two references to "cross party" on page 1 of the response to read "cross community"

Resolved - That the report as drafted and amended by the Committee by the draft report of the Committee, and that the draft report should be submitted to the Assembly on 14 September 1998.

• That various documents, including the Minutes of Proceedings of the meeting held on 8 September, be attached to the draft report as annexes.

VOTING IN COMMITTEE

It was agreed that votes taken in this Committee will be recorded by party.

PRAYERS LETTER FROM PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH

Following the letter from the Presbyterian Church the question of prayers in the Assembly was considered. It was agreed that, as for the Forum, prayers should consist of two minutes silent prayer or reflection.

SITTINGS AND ADJOURNMENTS

Members expressed a variety of views on sittings and adjournments but no decisions were taken at this stage.

MODE OF ADDRESS AND DESIGNATION OF MEMBERS

It was considered that the following formula "Assembly Member Jones, North Belfast" merited further consideration. It was agreed that this issue including the question of Designation of Members would be revisited in the future.

MODERNISATION COMMITTEE

It was agreed that it would be helpful for the Committee to obtain documents issued by the Modernisation Committee at Westminster.

COMMITTEE OFFICIALS

Following explanation from the acting clerk (Mr Barnes) it was formally agreed that the Committee officials would be Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold.

DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETINGS

Agreed: That the next meeting should take place on Wednesday, 16 September at 10.30 am in Room 144, Parliament Buildings and that there would be two meetings in the following week.

ADJOURNMENT

The meeting was closed at 12 noon.          

MURRAY BARNES

Second Clerk (Business)                                              

Amendment

The following amendment should be made to the minutes of 1 September 1998. Page 2 under B(2) 2^nd paragraph to read "Mr Dodds pointed out in relation to this draft that Rule 12 of the Initial Standing Orders only required cross-community support for decisions under Rule 12(2)."

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday 16 September 1998 at 10.30 am

in Room 144, Parliament Buildings

 

PRESENT: Dr E Birnie

Mr D S Dalton

Mr M McGimpsey

Mr P Lewsley

Mr J Wells

Mr S Wilson

Mr P Berry

Mr F Molloy

Mr J Kelly

Mr D Ford

Mr R McCartney QC MP

Ms J Morrice

Mr D Ervine

Mrs B Rodgers)

Mr E O'Neill

OBSERVERS: Mr D Watson

IN THE CHAIR: Mr F Cobain

IN ATTENDANCE: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold

 

ROLL CALL

The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on this issue. MINUTES The minutes of the previous meeting were agreed. MEETING OF JOINT CHAIRMEN WITH PRESIDING OFFICER Mr Cobain reported on the meeting on 8 September between the Co-chairs and the Presiding Officer. There was a need to maintain and if possible increase the momentum in formulating Standing Orders and it was hoped that it might be possible to complete the task in 5 to 6 weeks. It would henceforth be the Committee's aim to meet twice weekly.

Mobile Phones

Mr McCartney advised that it was the rule that mobile telephones had to be switched off within the Palace of Westminster and that it would be appropriate to apply the same practice here. Plenary Sessions There was some discussion on the extent and nature of plenary sessions and it was agreed that officials would draw up a draft paper.

Formation of New Party

It was agreed that the Committee Chair would write to the Minister of State seeking a change of Standing Orders that would allow maximum Committee membership to be increased by one to facilitate representation of the new party which will be formally recognised within the Assembly from 21 September. This measure has been taken in order to deal expeditiously with the issue. It was clear that the question of Committee membership would have to be revisited again in the near future. Examination of 1973 Assembly Standing Orders The Committee considered possible Standing Orders under the 'More Complex' heading. It was agreed that officials would do some preliminary drafts on some areas including Closure of Debates and Committees. It was agreed to accept the following 1973 Assembly Rules: ·10 (Earlier Meetings of Assembly) changing 26 members to 30 members ·19 (Statements) change 19(2) to read "Notice of statements shall be given to the Presiding Officer not less than 2½ hours before they are due to be made." Change 'half an hour' in 19(3) to '1½ hours' and change 'five minutes' to 'ten minutes'. ·43 (Public Accounts Committee) replacing `eight' with 'eleven' and 'five' with 'six'. The Committee considered the possible Standing Orders under the 'Likely to Pose Some Difficulty' heading. It was agreed that officials would provide some guidance on the meaning of private business. It was agreed to accept the following 1973 Assembly Rules: ·17 (Questions) Accept the Rule but strengthen to ensure that for the purposes of scrutiny questions must be answered as clearly as possible. ·18 (Private Notice Questions) 18(2) After 'Executive concerned' replace existing wording with 'not less than 2½ hours before they are due to be asked.' It was agreed that the issue of Change of Designation would be dealt with as a priority at the next meeting.

DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETINGS

Agreed: That the next meetings should take place on Wednesday 23 September and Friday 25 September to be held at 2.00 pm on each of the days in Room 144 Parliament Buildings.

ADJOURNMENT

The meeting was closed at 12 noon.

 

 

 

 

MURRAY BARNES

Second Clerk (Business)

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

 

Wednesday, 23 September 1998 at 2.00 pm

in Room 144, Parliament Buildings

 

Present: Mr F Cobain Mr P Weir Mr D S Dalton Mr M McGimpsey Mr S Farren Rev Dr I Paisley, MP, MEP Mr G Campbell Mr N Dodds Mr C Murphy Mr J Kelly Mr S Close Mr R McCartney, QC, MP Ms J Morrice Mr D Ervine Mrs B Rodgers Mr E O'Neill (substituting from Mr McGrady) Observer: Mr D Watson Mr N Boyd In the Chair: Mr D Haughey In attendance: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold   ROLL CALL The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these issues. MINUTES The minutes of the previous meeting were agreed.           CHANGE OF DESIGNATION As it Relates to Tradition (ie Nationalist, Unionist etc) There was a lengthy discussion on the above, culminating with a formal proposal of the following rule by Mr Weir, seconded by Mr Farren it was agreed unanimously: "Provision should be made for members to change Designation on no more than one occasion during the lifetime of an Assembly upon notice to the Presiding Officer of at least 30 days." As it Relates to Party This issue was aired in considerable detail and following the discussion officials were asked to draft a form of words that would reflect the agreement that the Committee had reached on the matter. These would be amended as necessary, and be formally proposed at the next meeting. The draft is attached to these minutes. ORIGIN OF CHANGE OF DESIGNATION CONCEPT Officials were asked to inquire as to the origins and purpose of the original draft on change of designation (ie para 2(4) of Annex A of Interim Report). APPROACH TO MINISTER OF STATE It was agreed that the co-chairs would be empowered to contact the Minister to bring him up to date with developments in Committee following the issuing of Mr Cobain's letter of 17 September. DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING Agreed: That the next meeting should take place at 2.00 pm on Friday 25 September in Room 144, Parliament Buildings. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was closed at 4.00 pm.           DENIS ARNOLD

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

 

Friday 25 September 1998 at 2.00 pm

in Room 144 Parliament Buildings

 

Present: Mr P Weir

Dr E Birnie (substituting for Mr S Dalton)

Mr M McGimpsey

Mr S Farren

Mr S Wilson (substituting for Dr Paisley)

Mr G Campbell

Mr N Dodds

Mr C Murphy

Mr J Kelly

Mr F Molloy

Mr S Close

Mr R McCartney QC MP

Ms J Morrice

Mrs B Rodgers

Mr A Maginness (substituting for Mr McGrady)

Observers: Mr D Watson

Mr N Boyd

In the Chair: Mr Haughey to deal with Agenda item 3 and related matters

Mr Cobain for other Agenda items

In Attendance: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold

 

ROLL CALL

The Chairman (Mr Haughey) marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters.

AGENDA ITEM 3

The following draft rules were agreed:

1. Allocation of certain Positions/Posts Under d'Hondt

The d'Hondt procedure as it relates to the allocation of

1. Seats on the Executive Committee

(ii) Committee Chairmanship

(iii) Committee Deputy Chairmanships, will be applied on the basis of party numerical strengths upon the outcome of the Assembly General Election.

(ii) Change of Designation Members may change designation on no more than on occasion during the lifetime of an Assembly upon notice to the Presiding Officer of at least 30 days. RULE 15(2)

There was some discussion on the potential problems posed by Rule 15(2) as it stands. Whilst there was a view that the Committee maximum size should be 18 the prevailing position was that the Committee had already decided that it should be 19 and had written to the Minister on this basis. For the same reasons the CAPO membership should also rise (in this case to 17).

It was agreed that Committee size and composition was something to be considered in the future but it was the general expectation that the make-up of Committees would be arrived at on a proportionate basis following consultation between party leaders/whips and the Presiding Officer. Mr Cobain took the Chair for the remainder of the meeting.

MINUTES

The minutes of the previous meeting were agreed.

SITTINGS OF THE ASSEMBLY

Members considered a draft Standing Order on sittings of the Assembly. The following indicative timetable was agreed: Monday: Committee Business 11.00 am - 12.30 pm Questions 2.30 pm - 4.00 pm Government Business 4.00 pm - 6.00 pm Tuesday: Government Business 10.30 am - 12.30 pm Private Members Business 2.00 pm - 3.00 pm Adjournment Debate 3.00 pm - 6.00 pm Draft rules will be amended where unnecessary to take the above into account.

OTHER RULES

Members continued to examine rules within the Likely to Pose Some Difficulty category. - Division (Rule 35) It was agreed to adopt this rule as it stands for the present. It may be possible in the future to look at the possibility of electronic voting. Officials were requested to investigate the options. - Order in the Assembly (Rule 40A) the rule was adopted with the period of exclusion amended to 10 sitting days. - Committee of Selection (Rule 42) This rule related to C11 of the Additional Initial Standing Order. It was agreed that C11 should be extended to apply to all (not just statutory) Committees and amended to reflect the need for consultation between party leaders and the Presiding Officer in the selection of member for Committee service. - Privilege (Rule 46) The rule should stand except that the Committee size should be 9 with a Quorum of 7 and the reference to the 11.30 am deadline should change to "two hours prior to commencement of business". ANNEX A

The Committee had at earlier meetings deferred business it wished to return to. This had been summarised with Annex A of its Interim Report to the Secretary of State. Annex A was examined and the following decisions were arrived at unanimously by those present:

- Affiliation: Members may show off their affiliation as Nationalist, Unionist or Other. - Language: The issue of languages to be used in the Assembly will be dealt with separately and specifically by the Committee at a future meeting. - Members Interest: Include the list of 100 items in the extracts from Erskine May (provided by Officials) as a schedule to this rule.

OTHER ISSUES

Officials will prepare papers on some outstanding issues to be taken at the next meeting.

DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETINGS

Agreed: That the next meeting should take place at 2.00 pm on Wednesday 30 September in Room 144 Parliament Buildings.

ADJOURNMENT

The meeting was closed at 4.10 pm.      

DENIS ARNOLD

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

 

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

 

Wednesday 7 October 1998 at 2.00 pm

in Room 144 Parliament Buildings

 

Present: Mr P Weir

Mr S Dalton

Mr M McGimpsey

Mr S Farren

Mr S Wilson (substituting for Dr Paisley)

Mr G Campbell

Mr N Dodds

Mr C Murphy

Mr J Kelly

Mr S Close

Mr R McCartney QC MP

Ms J Morrice

Mrs B Rodgers

Mr E O'Neill

Mr D Watson

Observer: Mr N Boyd

In the Chair: Mr Haughey

In attendance: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold

Apologies: Mr Cobain

ROLL CALL

The Chairman (Mr Haughey) marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters.

UUAP

Mr Watson was welcomed on to the Committee as a full participating member representing the UUAP.

MINUTES

The minutes of 25 September 1998 were agreed.

MATTERS ARISING

Mr Dodds reminded the Committee of the need to include the agreed rule change relating to D'Hondt and Designation (see minutes of 25 September 1998) in the final compendium of Standing Orders.

ADDITIONAL INITIAL STANDING ORDERS

Mr Dodds asked whether there had been a response to the letter from the Joint Chairmen from the Secretary of State. Officials to pursue.

ERSKINE MAY

Mr McCartney requested that members should have more ready access to Erskine May. They reported that copies are available in the Library, Hansard Room (R249), Business Office (R26) and the Speakers Office.

GENDER PROOFING

Ms Morrice reminded the Committee of the importance of gender proofing final drafts.

SCHEDULE OF WORK

The Chairman outlined a proposed timetable of work that the Committee would need to get through if we were to be in a position to report to the Assembly, as tasked, on 26 October 1998. Clearly it was not going to be possible to make a final report because of "Bill" implications. The Bill is subject to heavy amendment and will not become law until late November.

EXAMINATION OF STANDING ORDERS (AGENDA ITEM 2)

Members examined draft Standing Orders prepared by officials in the paper dated 2 October 1998. The following decisions were made:

- Earlier Meetings of Assembly

Paragraph (2) after First Minister add "and Deputy First Minister".

- Statements

Paragraph (2) add "and the Speaker shall communicate that information to the Whips as early as is practicable".

- Public Accounts Committee

Provisionally agreed, but officials to advise further on the usage and meaning of the word "select". There will essentially be three types of Committee in the Assembly, statutory. Ad hoc and what is understood to fall into the category of "select".

Add (4) each party with a membership between 2 and 15 shall have one member on the Committee. Parties with a membership in excess of 15 shall have two members on the Committee.

- Questions

Paragraph (8) change 'two days' to 'one day'.

Otherwise agreed but Mr McCartney was concerned that, as at Westminster, the question procedure could be abused, for example through the practice of asking planted questions. The Committee recognised the dangers of this but it was felt that it would be difficult to frame a rule that could effectively eliminate the practice.

- Private Notice Questions

Paragraph (2) add "and the Speaker shall communicate that information to the Whips as early as is practicable".

- CAPO

Mr Dodds asked that a means be found such as notice boards to communicate questions to members. Mr McCartney advised members that at Westminster such details are transmitted electronically to TV monitors in MPs rooms. It was agreed however that this was a matter for CAPO. A copy of these minutes will go to the clerk of that Committee and as a matter of course they will also be copied to the Initial Presiding Officer.

- Sitting and Adjournments of Assembly

Agreed.

- Closure of Debate

Paragraph (2) after debate replace wording with "on an issue, the resolution of which requires cross-community support under this Standing Order the question shall not be carried unless at least 30 members have voted in support of it".

- Business Committee

Paragraph (2): after party insert "with at least two members"

Paragraph (4): change three to two and insert after members "of the

Committee".

There was some debate over whether it was feasible for the Deputy Speakers to act as Deputy Chairperson in the Business Committee but it was felt that in order to do so they would have to be ex-officio members. The conclusion was that there was advantage in drawing the deputies from the Committees regular membership. - General Election (Note) Agreed. - Prayers Members were anxious that the exclusion from prayers of the public should be included in Standing Orders. This is to be done by means of adding a clause to the rule on Visitors. - Private Business Agreed. - Adjournment Debates Members were unclear as to the effects of the short period of notice envisaged in paragraph (2). Officials to consider implications. It was agreed that party leaders will not be excluded from Adjournment Debates. It would clearly be a nonsense within the unique structure of the Assembly to do so. It was further agreed that Committee Officials would write to the Whips on the question of running orders of speakers in debate. It was felt that there should be a speaker from each party in the first instance and after this means may be found to allocate time fairly to secondary speakers. - Public Business Agreed. - Rule Against Speaking Twice Defer until next meeting. - Seconders Agreed, but add after Speaker "for the election of First Minster or the election of Deputy First Minster". - Amendments Agreed. - Anticipation Agreed. - Matters Awaiting Judicial Decisions Agreed. - Presentation of Papers and Accounts Agreed.   - Public Bills Consideration deferred until Bill becomes law. - Reconsideration of a Bill Consideration deferred until Bill becomes law. - Visitors Add new clause (3) "Visitors will only be admitted to the public gallery after Prayers". - Referral of Bills to NIHRC Consideration deferred until Bill becomes law. - Conformity with Equality Requirements Consideration deferred until Bill becomes law. - Financial Acts and Estimates Consideration deferred until Bill becomes law. - Delaying Motions Agreed. LANGUAGES The Committee agreed, on a proposal of Mr Dodds, that the issue of languages be returned to at the next meeting. A vote was taken with the following result. For Against Mr Dodds ) Mr Campbell ) DUP Mr Murphy, Sinn Fein Mr Wilson ) Ms Rodgers ) Mr O'Neill ) SDLP Mr Farren ) Mr McCartney ) UKUP Mr Dalton ) Mr Weir ) UUP Mr Close Alliance The motion was carried. D'HONDT The Committee additionally considered some possible implications of the D'Hondt mechanism as it applies to the New Assembly. It was agreed that these matters, including Agenda item 3 in minutes of 25 September, should be returned to at a later date.

 

 

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Friday 9 October 1998 at 2.00 pm

in Room 144, Parliament Buildings

 

PRESENT: Mr P Weir

Mr S Dalton

Dr E Birnie (substituting for Mr McGimpsey)

Mr A Maginness (substituting for Mr S Farren)

Mr S Wilson (substituting for Dr Paisley)

Mr G Campbell

Mr N Dodds

Mr C Murphy

Mr J Kelly

Mr F Molloy

Mr S Close

Mr R McCartney QC MP

Ms J Morrice

Mrs B Rodgers

Mr E O'Neill (substituting for Mr E McGrady)

IN THE CHAIR: Mr Haughey

IN ATTENDANCE: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold

APOLOGIES: Mr Cobain, Mr Watson

 

ROLL CALL

The Chairman (Mr Haughey) marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on this issue.

MINUTES

The minutes of 7 October 1998 were agreed.

DESIGNATORY LETTERS

Members considered a number of options for designatory letters. Once again after considerable discussion consensus could not be achieved. A straw poll showed that -

5 members favoured MPA (Member of the Parliamentary Assembly);

4 members favoured AM (Assembly Member); and

2 members favoured MLA (Member of the Legislative Assembly)

The matter has been left in abeyance for the time being. The Chairman will acquaint the Secretary of State of the flavour of the discussion.

MODE OF ADDRESS

Two options were discussed as to how Members might address each other in the Assembly Chamber. They were simply "Mr/Ms/Dr etc Bloggs" or "Mr/Ms/Dr etc Bloggs, the Members for", followed by the Westminster Constituency, eg South Belfast. The second approach allows for precision through standardisation of form: the first may in certain circumstances require the Member to identify which Bloggs he/she is referring to.

Further consideration of this matter was deferred.

PAPERS OF 7/10

Members considered the paper of 7 October prepared by officials.

Speeches

Add to paragraph 4 after below "except at the discretion of the Speaker after consultation with the Business Committee."

Sharing of Speaking Time

Ms Morrice suggested that two Members be allowed, by mutual agreement, to share on individual's allocation of speaking time. This was supported by Mr Molloy. When a straw poll was taken all present (other than Ms Morrice) including Mr Molloy, opposed the proposal. The motion was lost.

Business of the Assembly

An abbreviated rule on business of the Assembly was considered but it was decided to stick with the more detailed and specific options agreed at earlier meetings.

Committees

Elements of draft rules on Committees were agreed.

LANGUAGE

The Committee continued its discussion on the draft Standing Order on Language. The matter was thoroughly aired, but no alternative to the original draft could be agreed.

The main points that were made were as follows:

In support of the draft:

• all Assembly Members can speak and communicate in English. This is not the case for other languages;

• the fact that the discussion on the language question was conducted in English illustrated that this is the accepted medium of communication. The introduction of other languages is for purposes other than communication;

• the language issue here was not comparable to the situation in Europe where 11 national languages are accorded official recognition. Irish is not amongst them;

• matters could snowball and we could end up dealing with demands for translation facilities for many languages (some Members are multi-lingual).

• the use of a minority language was a form of self-imposed discrimination since it encroached on the total amount of speaking time available to Members.

In opposition to the draft:

• English is not necessarily everyone's first language;

• Account must be taken of linguistic diversity. This is a provision of the Agreement;

• Irish speakers should not suffer a time penalty in exercising their prerogative;

• EU institutions provide simultaneous translation facilities;

• It has been the practice at some party conferences here to provide simultaneous translations facilities, some also offer a translation service for the deaf.

Some Members considered that in attempting to deal with the language question it was, at the same time, advisable to examine the practicalities of providing simultaneous translation facilities for the two indigenous languages (Irish and Ulster Scots). It was also important that decisions were made on the basis of broad principles and not taken piecemeal.

It was decided that the Chairman would discuss the matter with the Presiding Officer, in the latter's capacity as Chairman of CAPO, and report back to the Committee.

Committees of the Assembly

Rule agreed but at (4) remove "The minutes" and replace with "A general record", and at (5) last line replace "in any report" with "the general record of proceedings".

Roles of Statutory Committees

Agreed. No other part of the paper was considered.

PAPER ON INITIAL STANDING ORDERS

Members considered a paper on the Initial Standing Orders and the following was agreed.

Rule 1 Introduction

Redundant

Rule 2 General Rule

Accept paras 1 and 3. Dispense with para 3.

Rule 3 Taking Seats

The Committee has already addressed aspects of this rule (designation issue, etc); the rules should now be merged.

Rule 4 Quorum

Already agreed, Interim Report.

Rule 5 Sittings

Comparable rule agreed 7 October.

Rule 6 Business

Agreement on related issues on 2 and 7 October. Rule 7 Minutes Area covered under Office of Clerk etc in Interim Report. Rule 8 Speeches Addressed earlier in these minutes. Rule 9 Amendments Agreed 7 October. Rule 10 Order Agreed 25 September. Rule 11 Closure Agreed 7 October. Rule 12 Voting (see also rule on Divisions Agreed 25 September) Rule agreed in general terms but amend paragraph 7, tenth line as follows: After order delete "to declare Aye or No" and replace with "to indicate assent or dissent". Also add clause 2(c) to cover votes on expenditure/budgets etc. Rule 13 Election of Speaker Agreed (Interim Report) Rule 14 Election of First Minister and Deputy First Minister Agreed. Rule 15 Committees Some elements on Committee agreed in relation to another document prepared by officials. Rule 16 CAPO Dealt with under Business Committee and agreed on 7 October.

Rule 17 Visitors

Agreed 7 October.

Rule 18 News Media

Add new paragraph (6). "Chairpersons of Committees shall in relation to the news media, exercise the same powers as the Speaker within those places or precincts of the Assembly that are from time to time assigned to their use for the purposes of Committee business".

Rule 19 Symbols Emblems and Flags

There was a lengthy discussion on the above issue. Points made and questions posed were:

• no flags should be flown on the Assembly Building;

• if the above were to be agreed would this also apply to flags of various traditions within the Building?

• Northern Ireland was part of the UK and while this remained the case the Union flag should be flown;

• how can political emblems be defined?

There were difficulties in this area and it was agreed that the discussion could be left for future consideration.

NOMINEES

Arising from consideration of Initial Standing Orders, a number of Member raised concerned with Nominee lists. For example:

What happens when lists are exhausted?

Should the Nominating Officer of Registered Parties be able to nominate?

What if the nominee defects to another party?

It was agreed that the Chairman would approach the Secretary of State to see what thought has been given to these issues.

LETTER FROM MINISTER OF STATE TO JOINT CHAIRMEN

Mr Dodds referred to Mr Murphy's response to the Chairmen on Additional Initial Standing Orders and said that this should be something we should return to at an appropriate time.

DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING

Agreed: That the next meeting should take place at 2.00 pm on Wednesday 14 October in Room 144, Parliament Buildings.

ADJOURNMENT

The meeting was closed at 4.20 pm.

DENIS ARNOLD

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

 

Wednesday 14 October 1998 at 2.00 pm

in Room 106 Parliament Buildings

 

Present: Mr P Weir

Mr S Dalton

Mr M McGimpsey

Mr S Farren

Mr S Wilson (substituting for Dr Paisley)

Mr G Campbell

Mr N Dodds

Mr C Murphy

Mr J Kelly

Mr S Close

Mr R McCartney QC MP

Mr D Haughey

Mrs B Rodgers

Mr E O'Neill (substituting for Mr E McGrady)

Mr D Watson

In the Chair: Mr Cobain

In Attendance: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold

ROLL CALL

The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters.

MINUTES

The minutes of 9 October 1998 were amended to reflect the following: Mr Haughey clarified for the record that in relation to the Language question, Irish is an 'official' language within the EU but not a "working" language, ie interpretation is not provided. Mr Haughey pointed out that with regard to the straw poll on the sharing of speaking tiem, Ms Morrice made a formal proposal and Mr Molloy formally seconded this as a means of testing reaction to the idea. It was agreed that the straw poll of 9/10 on Designatory letters should read: MPA - 5 AM - 4 MLA - 3

CHAIRMAN'S REPORT

Mr Haughey reported on a number of matters arising from discussion at the last meeting.

Language A letter from Lord Alderdice to Mr Haughey (13 October 1998) on the matter was circulated. The position was that at present there was little that could be done but if it was the Assembly's view that translation services were desirable the administration would look favourably on it. The Shadow Commission is likely to be involved in an affirmative decision is taken, but in terms of physical work there are probably no major requirements. No wiring would be needed since signals could be carried on infra-red beams. There would also be a requirement for perhaps two interpreters. Designatory Letters The Minister had indicated that in his view the Designatory Letters which attracted the least number of objections were MLA. Mr Molloy stated that his party had not, as far as he was aware, been consulted on the matter. Substitutions The Minister welcomed the Committee's comments on substitutes/nominees and particularly on the suggested role of Nominated Officers. These views will be considered in the drafting of the Registration of Parties Bill. Rule Amendment Mr Haughey referring to a letter from the Initial Presiding Officer suggested a strengthening of Standing Orders in relation to behaviour. He indicated that there was a need to go further than Erskine May and suggested the use of the additional wording "or personal or otherwise objectionable remarks". There was some discussion of the above points and it was agreed that these issues would be best left to another day. In the meantime the Joint Chairman was asked to prepare a written synopsis of his oral report. The issues in it could then be taken as an agenda item once Members had had the opportunity to read and consider them.

CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT

The Report was brought up and read. The Report was read a second time paragraph by paragraph.

Background Paragraphs 1 to 8 read and agreed Approach Paragraph 9, read and amended Additional Standing Orders Paragraph 10 read and agreed Paragraph 11 read and amended Paragraph 12 read and agreed This Report Paragraph 13 read and amended Paragraph 14 and Appreciation read and agreed. ANNEX A

Coverage read and agreed:

Rule 1 read and agreed Rule 2 read and amended Rule 3 read and agreed Rule 4 read and amended Rule 5 read and agreed Rule 6 read and amended Rule 7-11 read and agreed Rule 12 read and amended Rule 13-17 read and agreed Rule 18 read and amended Rule 19 read and amended Rule 20-27 read and agreed Rule 28 read and amended Rule 29-32 read and agreed Rule 33 read and amended Rule 34-38 read and agreed The written comments of a Westminster official on some of the draft rules were also considered. It was agreed that the draft would be amended for consideration again on 16 October.

DEBATE OF 26 OCTOBER

The Committee's position on how the report should be treated on 26 October was settled and it was agreed that this would be communicated to the Presiding Officer by the Joint Chairmen.

LANGUAGE

It was agreed for the record that people should be allowed to speak in the language of their choice.

RULES IN RESPECT OF SPEAKER

Mr Close pointed out that the Bill provided for an outgoing Speaker to preside over the initial meeting of a new Assembly. This clarified matters and assisted the Committee in its consideration of drafts.

MEMBERS' INTERESTS

Mr McCartney asked officials for clarification of the meaning of "substantial" in the schedule (Item 8) to the rule on Members' Interests.

DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING

Agreed that the next meeting should take place at 2.00 pm on Friday 16 October in Room 21, Parliament Buildings.

ADJOURNMENT

The meeting was closed at 4.30 pm.

       

DENIS ARNOLD

 

 

 

 

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Friday 16 October 1998 at 2.00 pm

in Room 21, Parliament Buildings

  Present: Mr D S Dalton Mr M McGimpsey Mr S Farren Mr G Campbell Mr N Dodds Mr J Kelly Mr F Molloy Mr S Close Mr R McCartney QC MP Mr Cobain Mrs J Morrice In the Chair: Mr D Haughey In attendance: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold   CONSIDERATION OF DRAFT REPORT The Committee addressed the amendments to the Report which had been discussed at the previous meeting. Paragraphs 9, 11 and 13 read and agreed Rule 2 read and agreed Rules 4 and 6 read, amended and agreed Rules 12, 18, 19 read and agreed Rule 28 read, amended and agreed Rule 33 read and agreed Resolved: that the Report as amended be the Progress Report of the Committee to the Assembly. Ordered: that the Joint Chairmen do make the Report to the Assembly on 26 October 1998; that several papers be appended to the Report. D ARNOLD

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Tuesday 27 January 1999 at 2.00 pm

In Room 21 Parliament Buildings

  Present: Mr F Cobain Mr M McGimpsey Mr S Farren Mr S Wilson (substituting for Dr Paisley) Mr G Campbell Mr M Robinson (substituting for Mr N Dodds) Mr C Murphy Mr F Molloy Mr D Ervine Mr D Ford (substituting for Mrs S Close) Ms J Morrice Mrs B Rodgers Mr D Watson In the Chair: Mr D Haughey In attendance: Mr M Barnes, Mr D Arnold and Mr J Gillespie BEREAVEMENT Members stood for a minute's silence as a mark of respect following Mr Dodds' recent bereavement. ROLL CALL The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters. MINUTES The minutes of 16 October 1998 were agreed. REPRESENTATION ON COMMITTEE Members discussed the request by the recently formed Northern Ireland Unionist Party to be represented on the Committee. The following points were made:

• The Initial Presiding Officer had allowed Mr McCartney full representation on CAPO. There was scope for this in that all the places on CAPO had not been taken up. Mr Ervine expressed disquiet at the CAPO arrangement.
• All places on the Committee on Standing Orders were on the other hand fully taken up and there was concern that any move to raise the membership of CSO could result in an imbalance of representation on the Committee.

• It was not clear under the Initial Standing Orders what constitutes a party.

A draft response to the NIUP request which was before the Committee was agreed and it was also agreed that the Joint Chairman would meet with the Initial Presiding Officer to discuss the matter. In the meantime a covering letter would be sent to the Initial Presiding Officer advising him of the Committee's views. STANDING ORDERS The Committee was briefed on the latest draft standing orders and the following initial comments from members were noted in relation to "Speeches". There was a view that the Presiding Officer should be given more authority in relation to speeches in order to protect the rights of back benchers. There should be no prescribed speaking times but the Presiding Officer should consult the Business Committee to take into account the factors outlined in paragraph (8) of the draft. Ms Morrice felt that it should be possible for party members to share any speaking time given to parties. Mr Cobain favoured a Westminster style system where a member could catch the Speaker's eye. It was agreed that the SO on speeches should be couched in general terms to allow the necessary flexibility in this difficult area. There was some discussion on other areas and in particular on the Rule on Deputy Presiding Officer. No decisions were taken. DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING It was agreed that the next meeting would take place at 2.00 pm on Wednesday 3 February in Room 21, Parliament Buildings. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was closed at 4.06 pm.

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday 3 February 1999 at 2.00 pm

In Room 21 Parliament Buildings

  Present: Mr M McGimpsey Mr A McFarland Mr S Farren Mr E O'Neill (substituting for Mr McGrady) Mr S Wilson (substituting for Dr Paisley) Mr G Campbell Mr N Dodds Mr McCartney QC MP Mr C Murphy Mr F Molloy Mr J Kelly Mr D Ervine Mr S Close Ms J Morrice Mr D Haughey Mrs B Rodgers In the Chair: Mr F Cobain Apology: Mr D Watson (Note: an apology for Mr McCartney is recorded for the meeting of 27.1.99) In attendance: Mr M Barnes, Mr D Arnold and Mr J Gillespie ROLL CALL The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters. MINUTES The minutes of 27 January 1999 were agreed.       SITTING TIMES Letters from the Presiding Officer to the Joint Chairs had been circulated to Members in relation to sitting times. It was agreed that the matter would be considered when the appropriate draft Standing Order was being re-examined. PAPERS FOR COMMITTEE The Chairman wished it to be clearly recorded that it was for the committee to make its arrangements to obtain what information it felt it needed and that the putting forward of material to the committee for consideration, other than from formal Assembly sources, was not considered appropriate. MAKE UP OF COMMITTEE Mr Haughey gave a resume of his meeting of 28 January with the Presiding Officer in relation to the composition of the Committee on Standing Orders. His view of the situation at present was that: (a) there should be no further extension in committee size; (b) Mr McCartney ought to have the right to observe and indeed he thought that he could still have input, but no voting rights. The latter in practice was not an issue since the committee rarely voted; (c) the position of the UKUP remained as it was until the Assembly resolved to change it. Any change would be brought about through a business motion moved by the Presiding Officer. Mr Kelly thought that it would be a shame if the abilities of Mr McCartney were to be lost to the committee. Mr Dodds felt that it was important that every interest should be represented on a committee of this type and importance. The committee's value was in its input and its deliberation. A final vote would always have to go the Assembly in any case. Mr Campbell suggested that we could either enlarge the committee by one or go back to basics in terms of considering a representation. Ms Morrice thought that it was important that there was inclusiveness. Mr McCartney argued that the UKUP was a "First Wave" party registered under the Registration of Political Parties Act. It had received "Short" money as a political party falling into the category - like all of the smaller parties - of parties within the membership range of 1-10. The UKUP had stood at election on clearly defined policies and the issue was to do with a possible removal of rights given in accordance with existing rules. There was here an important question of precedent. Mr Ervine sought clarification as to the terms of any Business Motion to bring about a change. Mr Haughey responded that it would be along the lines of the two previous motions relating to membership of the Committee on Standing Orders. Mr McCartney made it clear that he was not prepared to attend the committee in any capacity other than as a full member. NIO INTEREST IN STANDING ORDERS The Joint Chairs reported to the committee that they had been contacted indirectly by the NIO in relation to Standing Orders. The NIO had been critical of the work done by the committee to date and were now seeking, with the approval of HNICS, to employ a named person to undertake the drafting of Standing Orders for the period beyond devolution.. They had also made it clear that they now intended that the Standing Orders of the Assembly beyond the shadow period would be made by the Secretary of State. The messages were offensive both in form and content and reflected on the committee Chairs, the committee itself and its officers. The committee had its own procedures for quality assurance and was satisfied with these. The NIO had initially been brought into the loop because they had sought involvement and it was thought useful to hear their point of view. They had however increasingly shown a desire to be involved to an extent that was inappropriate and had not been envisaged by the committee The committee was advised that the NIO were in possession of the same papers that were before the committee today. Mr Barnes was asked whether an individual draftsperson had yet been employed by NIO. He replied that an appointment had not yet been made. Considerable time was spent on this subject and most Members spoke on the matter. There was a debate on a range of measures that might be taken but it was finally settled that the committee would, for the present, confine itself to the most restrained option it could take. Drafts prepared by the Joint Chairs were circulated and approved by Members who also agreed on a proposal from Mr Close, seconded by Mr McCartney, that it was important to ensure that the committee officials were not put under any duress as a result of the invidious position in which they find themselves. It was also decided that no further committee papers of any kind would in the future be released to the NIO or any other agency without the express approval of the committee on each occasion. STANDING ORDERS The committee then proceeded to examine a series of papers on Standing Orders. The following points were considered: Private Business - It was agreed to limit ourselves to the current draft. Anticipation - This rule is to be removed. Statements - It was agreed to go for the alternative paragraph 4 allowing one hour of questions. Oral Questions - It was agreed that the committee would adopt the suggested timetabling but for the present the question of who could deputise for Ministers was left open. Adjournment Debates - It was agreed that new drafting was required here to reflect a move to a Westminster-style debate where (a) there would be grouping of issues (b) a week's notice would be given of a topic or topics (there could be more than one) (c) there would be a draw to select topics (d) once topics were selected other speakers would have the opportunity of putting their names down to speak on the subject and there would be scope for Ministerial response etc. Financial Control Accounts and Audit - The committee feels that it has discharged its functions in terms of drafting in these areas. Other Committees (Chairs etc) - The committee agreed that chairs for non-departmental committees will be allocated using the d'Hondt mechanism but the process will run in parallel with that of statutory committees and not in series. Audit Committee - The principle behind the draft on the Audit Committee was agreed. Officer-at-Arms - No decision as to title of such an officer as yet. References were made by Mr Haughey to the position in the Dail and in the United States and Mr McCartney said the appointment was of a para-military character and emanated from a very long tradition. Suspension of Standing Orders - Draft provision agreed. PAPER B Paper B was advisory "companion" material to Standing Orders. Mr Molloy sought clarification on two issues, namely d'Hondt and voting. It was also confirmed that d'Hondt could not be applied automatically to Junior Ministerial appointments. PAPER C Remitted until next week. PAPER D The underlying principles of Paper D on statutory committee membership were agreed. The only matter remaining to be decided was committee size. Mr McFarland warned Members of the dangers of opting for very large committees. It was clear that there would be many committees and the resulting work would put great pressure on Members. Mr Murphy sought clarification on the round-up rule and this was given by Mr Cobain and Mr Wilson. Mr Ervine raised the question of membership of sub-committees. Mrs Rodgers said that it was important to distinguish between sub-committees and Ad-hoc committees. It was agreed that sub-committees should, so far as was possible, incorporate the principle of 'proportional' membership. Ms Morrice felt it important to be inclusive and to find a means of allowing representation of the smaller parties but Mrs Rodgers argued that the larger parties also had their back-benchers to consider. DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING It was agreed that the next meeting would take place at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 9 February in Room 21 Parliament Buildings. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was closed at 4.17 pm.         D ARNOLD                                

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday 9 February 1999 at 2.00 pm

In Room 21 Parliament Buildings

  Present: Mr F Cobain Mr M McGimpsey Mr S Dalton (Note: Was also present on 3 February) Mr A McFarland Mr S Farren Mr E O'Neill (substituting for Mr McGrady) Mr S Wilson (substituting for Dr Paisley) Mr G Campbell Mr N Dodds *Mr McCartney QC MP Mr C Murphy Mr P McNamee (substituting for Mr Molloy) Mr D Ervine Mr S Close Ms J Morrice Mr A Maginness (substituting for Ms Rodgers) In the Chair: Mr D Haughey In attendance: Mr M Barnes, Mr D Arnold and Mr J Gillespie

• Mr McCartney

Mr McCartney asked that he be allowed to make a statement before any other business was taken. He advised the Committee that the NIUP would not now press its application for membership of CSO until after the period of acute business. Mr McCartney stated that it was neither fair nor reasonably that on the one hand his experience be utilised and at the same time he should have to sit under what was, in effect, a sentence of expulsion. He added that the NIUP had considered themselves either too inexperienced or too incompetent to sit on the Committee. He had stated this at a previous meeting, had been challenged on it and he again rejected the terms of the challenge. Mr McCartney requested that the Chairman suggest to the Initial Presiding Officer that the matter be determined by the Assembly through a Business motion on Monday. In the meantime he felt that he should not attend any further meetings of the Committee commencing with the day's substantive business. The Chairman thanked Mr McCartney and stated that this was a matter in which the Committee could not have the final say. It could do no more than make recommendations as before. Mr McCartney said that he appreciated this and at this point left the meeting. ROLL CALL The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters. MINUTES The minutes of 3 February 1999 were agreed. ASSEMBLY SESSIONS It was agreed that Assembly sessions should run from early September to end July and that the first session will run from date of devolution to end July 2000. REPLY TO CBI A letter from the CBI was considered by the Committee and a response agreed. MEMBERS' INTERESTS There was discussion on the question of Members' Interests. The Committee's own papers were considered on the matter along with input from the Speaker's Advisor. It was agreed that the Chairman would discuss this with the Speaker and come back with a recommendation as to a way forward. Mr Cobain again reiterated the point that he made at the previous meeting in relation to the contribution of uninvited input to the Committee's work. Similar concerns were voiced by other Members. SPEAKER The Committee was fully apprised of the advice given to the Committee on the use of the term Speaker. Legal advice from two separate sources pointed to a requirement to use Presiding Officer. However there appeared to be strong precedent for the use of Speaker. The Committee wished the term Speaker to be used in Standing Orders. OATH A suggested Oath/Affirmation was agreed for use with the Standing Orders on Oaths. SPEECHES Members considered the latest draft on speeches. Some Members felt that the Standing Order should be explicit on timings (these had been removed at the previous meeting). Mr Ervine was worried about the rights of backbenchers and Mr Wells said that the Speaker's primary role was to protect these. Mr McFarland said that at Westminster Members catch the Speaker's eye in turn from each side of the House. Mr Ervine wondered if a similar practice, albeit in a more complex way, could be applied here. Mr Close thought that all parties should participate in a first round of speeches and after this matters should be left to the discretion of the Speaker. We should not attempt to be more prescriptive in Standing Orders. Mr Campbell and Mr Dalton agreed. Ms Morrice thought that CAPO was keen that the CSO should set things in stone. Mr Wells was concerned that intervention was presently restricted because the practice under Initial Standing Orders was that the person who took the intervention was in effect giving away his time. Equally there may be scope for abuse if there was no means of capping intervention time. Mr McGimpsey was concerned that some Members simply speed read their speeches into the Record. Mr Maginness felt though that this should be allowed since some Members were new and this was an area in which it was difficult to be prescriptive. The Chairman was of the view that rules will develop over time and that we should leave the draft as it stands. He also undertook to raise some of the above concerns with the Speaker. REMUNERATION AND PENSIONS There is a requirement in the Act to have a standing order on the above. Members were concerned however as to what information the Speaker would be required to publish as there was a potential, if care was not taken, for the public to misconstrue certain facts particularly relating to the variation in travel expenses of Members. PETITION OF CONCERN Standing Orders content agreed. LANGUAGE The Committee then proceeded to debate, at length, the use of different languages at length. Mr McGimpsey thought that there was no need for a Standing Order and that what was happening now was adequate for the purposes of the Assembly. Mr Farren felt that the matter was, in any case, more one of the Commission or CAPO. Mr Close took the view that the Assembly has a responsibility to ensure that people can speak in a language of their choice but if others cannot understand this then it is the problem of the speaker. There was some debate as to the content and meaning of the section of the Belfast Agreement relating to this matter. Mr Dodds argued that this could lead to a catering for many languages. Mr Ervine suggested that it might be helpful if we limited ourselves to allowing a list of approved languages. English, Irish, Gaelic and Scots Irish. Mr Dalton disagreed and was supported by Mr Campbell who said that to his knowledge there was no non-English speaking Member of the Assembly. Mr Murphy and Mr McNamee argued that the place of Irish had been hard fought for and was part of the Agreement and felt that Mr Close's interpretation was a misunderstanding of the Agreement. The Chairman attempted to bring the disparate views together. This was not possible and it was agreed that he and officials would work on drafts to bring before the Committee for further consideration. DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING It was agreed that the next meeting would take place at 2 pm on Thursday 11 February in Room 144 Parliament Buildings. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was closed at 5.10 pm.     D ARNOLD                            

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Thursday 11 February 1999 at 2.00 pm

In Room 144 Parliament Buildings

Present: Dr E Birnie (substituting for Mr McGimpsey) Mr S Dalton Mr A McFarland Mr S Farren Mr E ONeill (substituting for Mr McGrady) Mr J Wells (substituting for Dr Paisley) Mr M Morrow (substituting for Mr Campbell) Mr N Dodds Mr C Murphy Mr P McNamee (substituting for Mr Molloy) Mr J Kelly Mr S Close Ms J Morrice Mr A Maginness (substituting for Ms Rodgers) Mr D Watson In the Chair: Mr D Haughey Apologies: Mr Cobain Mr Ervine In attendance: Mr M Barnes, Mr D Arnold and Mr J Gillespie ROLL CALL The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters. MINUTES The minutes of 9 February 1999 were agreed except that the last sentence of the first paragraph on the last page of the minutes should be amended to read: "Mr Farren felt that the practical implications of this matter were, in any case, more for the Commission or CAPO." MEETING WITH SPEAKER The Chairman and officers met the Speaker directly after the previous meeting and the Chairman reported as follows: Members' Interests The Speaker had no interest in the Committees preference of Standing Orders in this area. His only concern was that something needed to be done and put into effect soon. It was now the view of the Chairman and officers that the Committee should for a variety of reasons concentrate on its own draft on Members' Interests and this was the unanimous view of the Committee. At the request of Mr Dodds it was also agreed that the Chairman should enquire of the Speaker the background to the forthcoming Business motion on Members' Interests. Mr Morrow said that he thought the reason for the motion was to bring into effect an interim arrangement now that a subject Committee had been established to look at Belfast Harbour. Speeches The Chairman had raised a number of issues on speeches which had been well aired at the last meeting. There was further discussion in Committee but in the end it was agreed that the current draft on speeches should now stand. Publication of Remuneration and Pensions This is an area the Speaker has not yet had the chance to examine but he will do so and respond to the Committee in due course. Designatory Letters The Speaker's preference is for MLA (Member of Legislative Assembly). This has been used by a number of new Assemblies and seemed the most apt. The Chairman ran over some other options but was now also inclined to this view. It was agreed that before any decision was taken Members would consult with their parties so as to allow the issue to be dealt with at the next Committee meeting. Mr McFarland was keen to see the matter dispensed with quickly since new business cards were being printed. There was some debate as to whether a Standing Order was required on the matter and Mr Close pointed out that there had been one in the last Assembly. Nevertheless it was agreed that it was certainly a matter for the CSO whether or not any decision was reflected in a Standing Order. Title of Speaker The Initial Presiding Officer thought that the present title, or anything akin to it, was an unhelpful mouthful. The Scots were likely to use the term Speaker and we should do the same. The Committee had received conflicting advice on the matter and although legal opinion pointed to the term used in the Act, precedent favoured the title of Speaker. There might be some risk in going for the latter but the Committee was of one mind that it should do so. Mr Wells thought the title of Speaker conferred a higher standing on the office holder than did Presiding Officer. COMMITTEE MEMBERSHIP It was reported that the Speaker had felt that he was not in a position to put forward a Business motion on membership of CSO before the matter had been discussed in CAPO. NIUP The NIUP had, through CAPO, sought observer status on CSO. It was agreed that this be granted. Mr Dodds asked whether on this basis Mr McCartney could return to the Committee. The Chairman stated that this was purely a matter for Mr McCartney but he could see no impediment to his return. COMMITTEES It was agreed that the Standing Order relating to appointment of Committee Chairs and Deputy Chairs should, along with that for Ministerial Appointments, allow a period of 15 minutes from the request for nominations by the Speaker to the nominee taking up office. There was some discussion on numbers of statutory Committees. Mr Close argued for 10 but Mr Dodds said that it was impossible to be predictive. Mr McFarland thought there was also a question of efficiency - it might make for more a effective overall structure if there were fewer Committees. The Chairman confirmed that the Committee had already agreed to the use of a D'hondt system in establishing the Chairs and Deputy Chairs of non-statutory Committees. Ms Morrice wanted re-assurance that smaller parties would be able to pick their Committee places. The Chairman said that in practice this is probably what will happen but it will be done through discussion. Mr Murphy asked whether under the Agreement and the legislation there would be any Committee that would have a scrutiny role within the office of the FM and DFM. To meet his concerns the rule in Paper J was changed to read as follows: "1(a) the establishment of Committees of Members of the Assembly (Statutory Committees) to advise and assist Ministers in the formulation of policy with respect to each sof the main executive functions. Each such Committee shall carry out such a role in relation to one or more Ministerial Portfolio." JUNIOR MINISTERS The timings in the Paper on Junior Minister (K) could prove problematic if Junior Ministers are appointed at a time after the appointment of Committee Chairs. Officers are to look at this. PUBLIC BILLS The Paper on Public Bills was approved. DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING It was agreed that the next meeting would take place at 2 pm on Wednesday 17 February in Room 21, Parliament Buildings. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was closed at 3.40 pm.         DENIS ARNOLD                                            

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Wednesday 17 February 1999 at 2.00 pm

In Room 21 Parliament Buildings

Present: Mr S Dalton Mr A McFarland Mr D Haughey Mr S Farren Mr A Maginess (substituting for Mr McGrady) Mr J Wells (substituting for Dr Paisley) Mr G Campbell Mr N Dodds Mr C Murphy Mr F Molloy Mr J Kelly Mr D Ervine Ms J Morrice Mrs B Rodgers Mr D Watson In the Chair: Mr F Cobain Observer: Mr N Boyd In attendance: Mr M Barnes, Mr D Arnold and Mr J Gillespie ROLL CALL The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters. MINUTES The minutes of 11 February 1999 were agreed. MEMBERS' INTERESTS Mr Haughey reminded Members of the background to the decision at the last meeting to proceed with the Committee's own draft on Members Interests and reported that he had been in touch with the Speaker on the question of forthcoming Assembly Business on the subject. There was clearly a difficulty in taking this forward in advance of a report from C.S.O. It was agreed by the Committee that its draft Orders on Members Interests could be presented in the Assembly in advance of the body of Standing Orders now in preparation. Mr Haughey also read a letter from the Speaker which gave a background to the need to act quickly on the issue of Members Interests and to the involvement of his office. STANDING ORDERS The Committee examined draft Standing Orders of 17 February 1999. Rule 1 Read and Agreed Rule 2 Read and Agreed Rule 3 Read and Amended. Add "if elected to the Assembly" to 3(1)(b) Rule 4 Read and Agreed. Rule 5 Read and Amended. Replace "at least 2" with "three" in 5(1) There was some debate on the number of Deputy Speakers required and the Committee eventually agreed to 3. It was perfectly possible for Members who wished to amend this to do so when the Committee reports to the Assembly. Rule 6 Read and Agreed. Rule 7 Read and Agreed. Rule 8 Read and Agreed. Rule 9 Read and Agreed. In confirming Rule 9 the Committee was aware of correspondence from the Speaker on the matter. Rule 10 Read and Agreed. Rule 11 Read and Agreed. Procedure when Office of Speaker become vacant - Read and Amended add "during an Assembly term" after 'occurs' on first line, and opt for weekly rotation. Rule 12 Read and Agreed. Rule 13 Read and Agreed. Rule 14 Read and Agreed. Rule 15 Read and Agreed. Rule 16 Read and Agreed. Change 16(4) to "The Business Committee shall consult with the Speaker" in first line. Rule 17 Read and Amended. Change 17(2) after 'are' in second line to "made available to all Members". Rule 18 Read and Agreed. Rule 19 Read and Agreed. Rule 20 Read and Agreed. Rule 21 Read and Agreed. Rule 22 Read and Agreed. Rule 23 Read and Agreed. Rule 24 Read and Agreed. Rule 25 Read and Agreed. Mr Murphy wondered whether in adopting SO 25 we were opting for an outdated system. Mr Dodds said that there was nothing to stop us considering electronic voting in the future. Mr McFarland felt that the Division system was in practice efficient. It was agreed that the Chairman would write to the Speaker conveying the Committees views. Rule 26 Read and Agreed. Committee opted for five days in 26(1), this was later changed to seven days to be consistent with other areas in so far as this was practical. Rule 27 Read and Agreed. Rule 28 Read and Agreed. Rule 29 Read and Agreed. Rule 30 Read and Agreed. Rule 31 Read and Agreed. Rule 32 Read and Agreed. Rule 33 Read and Agreed. Rule 34 Read and Agreed. Rule 35 Read and Agreed. Rule 36 Read and Agreed. Rule 37 Read and Amended. 37(2) after 'the' penultimate line change to 'next Assembly sitting'. Mr Wells asked whether there was any facility in Standing Orders for a Committee of the Whole House to sit. It was pointed out that there was no specific Standing Order but Mr Haughey stated that there was scope in 29(1) for alternative arrangements. [Note: At the end of the meeting Mr Wells was content that the consideration stage under the accelerated procedure would meet the need that he foresaw.] Rules 38 and 39 Orders to be reversed but see below. Rule 40 Read and Agreed. Rule 41 Read and Amended. Remove "Carry out roles" at 41(1)(a) and replace with "Discharge duties". Ms Morrice queried the use of "Statutory Committee" and "Statutory Departmental Committee" in that both terms meant the same thing. Mr Dodds suggested, and it was agreed, that items of this kind could be dealt with in the Interpretation Section at the back of the document. Rule 42 Read and Agreed. Rule 43 Read but not yet agreed. See below. Rule 44 The Committee needed extra time to consider this rule and there was some debate as to Committee size. Ms Morrice argued for larger Committees of the B.C.C type with membership of around 20. Other Members from larger parties saw difficulties with this. It was agreed that Members needed more time to consult with party colleagues before progress could be made on this order. Mr Ervine pointed out that it would be necessary to amend the orders if there was to be true proportionality and it was agreed that there was a need to include Committee Chairs and Deputy Chairs when doing the arithmetic. This was agreed and the Order is to be amended. Mr Haughey pointed out that 3(d) of the Order would be impractical since it was not possible, unless they were very large, to have Committees that reflected the same party proportions as existed in the Assembly as a whole. It was agreed to insert the words "as far as possible" after "party" on line 2. ISSUES TO BE ADDRESSED Officers were asked to address a number of issues. These relate to Rules 38, 39 and 43 and for ease of reference the details are appended with these minutes. DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING It was agreed that the next meeting would take place at 2.00 pm on Friday 19^th February in Room 152, Parliament Buildings.   ADJOUREMENT The meeting was closed at 4.30 pm.         DENIS ARNOLD                                            

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

Appendix to minutes of 17 February 1999 Officials were asked to provide further information on the following drafts. Orders 38 and 39 relating to Northern Ireland Ministers: These were new technical drafts which were inserted as a requirement of the Act. They follow the principle of minimal quotation from the Act. The only area, as Mr Dalton pointed out, where there was discretion was in relation to the 'times' in each order. Mr McFarland asked for simple explanations of the intention of the Act in both cases. These could become advisory documents to support Standings Orders. In referring these Orders back for legal advice the legal advisor has attempted to simplify them and has incorporated them into a single Order which reads as follows: Appointment of Northern Ireland Ministers: Time Limits

1. The periods within which steps must be taken in the process of appointing Northern Ireland Ministers under section 18 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 are as follows:
2. Ministerial offices must be filled by applying the procedures set out in section 18(2) to (6) within a period of seven days beginning with the day on which -

 

1. the Assembly first meets following the election mentioned in section 18(1)(a),
2. the determination mentioned in section 18(1)(b) takes effect,
3. the resolution mentioned in section 18(1)(c) is passed,
4. the period of exclusion mentioned in section 18(1)(d) comes to an end, or
5. the office becomes vacant as mentioned in section 18(10).

1. Where the Speaker requests a nominating officer to select a Ministerial office and nominate a person to hold it, the nominating officer must exercise the power within 15 minutes of the request.
2. Where a person is nominated to hold a Ministerial office, he or she must declare acceptance of the office within 15 minutes of being nominated.

  What follows is an account of the thinking behind the draft: Time Limits for Running the Whole of D'Hondt for Ministers Draft Standing Order 39 and Subsection (2) of the New Draft This is a very technical provision, which only makes sense when you read the Standing Order and the Northern Ireland Act 1998 together. The only purpose of the Standing Order is to fix time limits. The Act deals with the appointment of Ministers by setting out the d'Hondt mechanism in section 18. But it does not say when the d'Hondt mechanism should operate. Instead it delegates the time aspect to Standing Orders. Standing Orders must make provision for this. Questions for the Committee The questions that must be addressed by the Committee in drafting a Standing Order are:

1. After an election, how long should be given to operate the d'Hondt mechanism and fill all the Ministerial offices?
2. When the First Minister and deputy First Minister determine that there should be a new Ministerial office, how long should be given to operate the d'Hondt mechanism and fill that new office.
3. If the Assembly passes a resolution to exclude a Minister from holding office, how long should be given to operate the d'Hondt mechanism and fill the office that is vacated by that person.
4. If the Assembly has passed a resolution to exclude members of a party from holding office, but the period of exclusion has finished and members of that party become eligible again to be Ministers, how long should be given to operate the d'Hondt mechanism so that they can be nominated to be Ministers.
5. If a Minister leaves office for any other reason, and the nominating officer of the party has not nominated a replacement, how long should be given to operate the d'Hondt mechanism so that a replacement can be found.

How long should the period be? As you can see, those are five different circumstances, and so the Committee does not have to decide on one single period. The answer can be different for each of the give examples. The draft Standing Order suggests seven days in each case. Only the new draft deals with the fifth example. It can be more or less depending on what the Committee think reasonable. Where exactly is this dealt with in the Act? Reading section 18(1) closely, one will see that the election case is in paragraph (a), the determination about Ministerial offices is in paragraph (b), the exclusion of Ministers is in paragraph (c) and the reinstatement of an excluded party is in paragraph (d). The crucial words are "within a period so specified", and those words appear at the end of subsection (1) where it is provided that "Ministerial offices shall be filled by apply subsections (2) to (6) within a period so specified". The word "so" means "in standing orders" because it refers back to the words "specified in standing orders" at the end of paragraph (e) of subsection (1). The provision about offices becoming vacant for other reasons is in section 18(11), where it is again provided that the vacancy "shall be filled by applying subsections (2) to (6) within a period specified in standing orders". Time Limits for Steps Within D'Hondt Draft Standing Order 38 and Subsections (3) and (4) of the New Draft This is another technical standing order about time limits. We have already seen how time limits are needed to ensure that the whole of the d'Hondt procedure takes place within a fixed time scale. But time limits are also needed for individual stages of that procedure. The first stage is when the nominating officer of a party selects an office and nominates a person to be Minister. The second stage is when the Minister takes up the office. Standing orders must state what the time limits are for these stages. Draft standing order 38 deals with the first stage. Questions for the Committee The questions that must be addressed by the Committee in drafting a Standing Order area -

1. How long should a nominating officer be given to nominate someone to be a Minister?
2. When a period is nominated, how long should that period be given to accept the office?

What happens when the time is up? When the time limit expires, the d'Hondt mechanism moves on to the next party. Where exactly is this dealt with in the Act? Two parts of section 18 deal with this -

1. section 18(3)(a) and (b) for running the d'Hondt procedure after an election, a determination of a new Ministerial office, an exclusion of a Minister, a reinstatement of a party;
2. section 18(11)(a) and (b) for running the d'Hondt procedure to fill vacancies in other cases.

Order 42 - Establishment of Statutory Committees Legal advice had been taken on this order. The issue which was unclear was whether Statutory Committees could be established to monitor the work of Junior Ministers working directly to the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. There was no doubt that non-statutory committees could be formed but they would not have the powers given to statutory committees under the Agreement and the Act. The area was uncertain since the wording in the Act and in the Agreement was not the same. More detailed advice is now to hand and is as follows: Statutory Committees and Northern Ireland Ministers The Northern Ireland Act 1998 requires Standing Orders to make certain provision about Statutory Committees. The requirements appear in section 29 of the Act. The Standing Orders are required to make provision for establishing Committees to advise and assist "each Northern Ireland Minister". To understand what is meant by a "Northern Ireland Minister", one needs to read other provisions of the Act. All the different kinds of Ministers are mentioned in sections 16-19 of the Act. Section 16 deals with the election of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. Section 17 and 18 deals with the appointment of Northern Ireland Ministers. Section 19 deals with the appointment of Junior Ministers. The phrase "Northern Ireland Minister" means the people appointed under the d'Hondt procedure (set out in Section 18 of the Act) to the ministerial offices determined by the First Minister and deputy First Minister (see section 17 of the Act). The phrase "Northern Ireland Minister" does not include the First Minister or deputy First Minister. Questions that the Committee May Ask Paragraph 8 of Strand One of the Agreement says that "There will be a Committee for each of the main executive functions of the Northern Ireland Administration". The functions of the First Minister and deputy First Minister are main executive functions, so there should be a Committee for those functions. No. The power to make Standing Orders (and the obligation to include certain things in the Standing Orders) comes from the Northern Ireland Act 1998, not from the Agreement. If there is any difference between the Agreement and the Act, the words in the Act are the ones that matter now, because they form the law about the Assembly.   Perhaps the phrase "Northern Ireland Minister" is meant to include the First Minister and deputy First Minister. No. The draftsman of the Act clearly distinguishes between the different kinds of Minister. The First Minister and deputy First Minister are usually listed separately from Northern Ireland Ministers. See for example section 20(1) - "There shall be an Executive Committee of each Assembly consisting of the First Minister, the deputy First Minister and the Northern Ireland Ministers." But the word "Minister" can include all the different types of Ministers Yes, this is true. But not where the context otherwise requires - see section 7(3) of the Act. And in the phrase "Northern Ireland Minister" the words "Northern Ireland" are part of the context. They make it clear that the phrase is about that kind of Minister, not Junior Ministers and not the First Minister and deputy First Minister. What if the First Minister is also the Minister for a Northern Ireland Department? Don't let this possibility confuse you. There can be an overlap between the First Minister and deputy First Minister and the Northern Ireland Ministers, because the people who serve as First Minister and deputy First Minister could also hold Ministerial office in relation to a Northern Ireland department. This is permitted by section 18(7) of the Act which provides as follows: "The holding of office as First Minister or deputy First Minister shall not prevent a period being nominated to hold a Ministerial office." But if that happened, the statutory committee under section 29 would relate to their offices as Northern Ireland Ministers, not their offices as First Minister and deputy First Minister. Example: If the First Minister is appointed under section 18 to be the Minister in charge of the Education department, a statutory committee under section 29 would operate in relation to matters within his responsibilities as a Minister for Education, not matters within his responsibilities as First Minister. Mr Dodds mentioned the cross-reference in 43(3). As I recall the background to this was that the Committee had discussed the nomination process. For example there was discussion on the effects of Members changing party or of the function of new parties. The Chairs sought clarification from the Minister and we were advised that the concerns of Members would be passed on to the team in charge of the Registration of Political Parties Bill. As it turned out nothing relating to this appeared in the subsequent Act which was copied to Members. The options are:

1. To refer to rule 3 which points to the derivation of a consolidated list.
2. Remove the reference to any other Order.
3. Draft an appropriate Order if there is a need.

        D ARNOLD                                                                    

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Friday 19 February 1999 at 2.00 pm

In Room 135 Parliament Buildings

  Present: Mr F Cobain Mr S Dalton Mr A McFarland Mr M McGimpsey Mr S Farren Mr A Maginess (substituting for Mr McGrady) Mr S Wilson (substituting for Dr Paisley) Mr M Robinson (substituting for Mr Campbell) Mr N Dodds Mr C Murphy Mr F Molloy Mr J Kelly Mr S Close Mr D Ervine Ms J Morrice Mrs B Rodgers Mr D Watson In the Chair: Mr D Haughey Observer: Mr N Boyd In attendance: Mr M Barnes, Mr D Arnold and Mr J Gillespie ROLL CALL The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters. MINUTES The minutes of 17 January 1999 were agreed. REDRAFTED RULE 39 The Committee looked at a redrafted rules which incorporated the original draft rules 38 and 39. The rule was agreed but the words 'except for reasons acceptable to the Assembly' or a similar expression should be added. STATUTORY COMMITTEES The Committee considered further advice on Statutory Committees. It was now fairly clear that it was not possible to have a Statutory Committee that could examine the functions of a Department of the Centre. There might be scope for a Non-Statutory Committee to operate in this area. It might have some powers, for example it could call for persons and papers (S44(6)), but these would not be comparable to those of a Statutory Committee. A number of people expressed concern at the problem. Mr Murphy thought there was a gap in the Act leaving out elements of the Agreement and asked what would happen if a large department such as DFP was moved to the Centre. Mr Dodds and Ms Morrice also thought the situation unsatisfactory. Mr McFarland said that there had been a movement of major executive functions after the Act came into being. Mr Close said that the problem lay in a failure to restrict the issues that went to the Centre. Mr Farren placed reliance upon paragraph 8 of stand 1 of the Agreement as the definitive position. Mr Cobain saw little prospect of change short of further legislation. It was agreed that the Joint Chairs would raise the matter with the FM and DFM directly and that officials would consult the Minister of State (Mr Murphy) and the Speaker. CROSS REFERENCE Mr Dodds made clear by references to earlier minutes of the Committee that the Committee was obliged to come back to the question of the rule referred to in draft SO43(3). It was agreed that he would liase with officials to resolve the problem. MEMBERS INTEREST Drafts were agreed on Members Interests for introduction in the Assembly week commencing 1 March. It was agreed that this would be a temporary expediat pending the setting up of a Committee on Standards and Privileges. This new Committee would take matters forward in this area. DRAFT ORDER 28(3) A change was agreed to draft Order 28(3) which will permit Members to vote on a Public Bill at Second Stage after amendments have been defeated. STAGES IN BILLS There was some discussion as to the number and nature of stages in Public Bills. It was at length agreed that there should be no further changes to the legislation drafts. COMMITTEE SIZE Matters discussed how many Members Statutory Committees should have. Mrs Rodgers said that 14 was the optimum size because it appeared to be beneficial to the smaller parties. Mr McFarland was worried about the pressures that would be placed on Members if we had large Committees. It was agreed that Members would come back with views at the next meeting and that these ideally should be within the range of 10-14. The Chairman considered that there would be a disposition on the part of the bigger parties to be generous to the smaller parties. RULE 44 Mr Dodds thought it wrong in principle that the make-up of the Executive Committee and the Chairs of Committees etc should be fixed whilst, over time, the party membership changed. It was agreed that a new paragraph (2) be inserted in Rule 44 to read - "In the following provisions of this Standing Order the Offices of Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson (which are filled in accordance with Standing Order 43) count as seats on a Committee." RULE 45 Change 2^nd sentence of (1) to read after 'to' to "the Business Committee which" instead of 'to the Speaker who'. RULE 46 A debate ensued about different types of Committees and various ideas were discussed. It was finally agreed that the Chairs and Officials would look at the rule. The view in the Committee was that there should be three types of Committees:

1. Statutory Departmental Committees
2. House Committees
3. Ad Hoc Committees

The Membership arrangements for (a) was already agreed in SO44. House Committees (b) would of the sort already described in Orders 50-55 and would have a similar membership arrangements to (a.). Group (c) would be Committees set up to look at specific issues of the Harbours Committee. The Membership arrangement for each such Committee would be determined by the Assembly by resolution at the time of their establishment. SOs on Committees will have to be redrafted to reflect the above policy. RULE 55 It was agreed that the Audit, Committee could be established as and when needed. The SO itself did not need to change. RULE 56 It was agreed that the rule on Order should be changed so that the Assembly would have to vote on a suspension (Mr Dodds) and that suspension should be up to 5 sitting days (Mr Molloy). RULES 57 AND 58 Read and Agreed. RULE 59 Order agreed but for the present substitute 'keeper of the House' for 'Serjeant at Arms'. DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING It was agreed that the next meeting would take place as soon as maybe after the Assembly Session on Monday 22^nd February in Room 135 Parliament Buildings. Members will be advised of the Committee start time by the Chairman at the end of the Plenary Session. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was closed at 5 pm.         DENIS ARNOLD                  

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Tuesday 23 February 1999 at 2.00 pm

In Room 135 Parliament Buildings

  Present: Mr M McGimpsey Mr S Dalton Mr A McFarland Mr S Farren Mr E O'Neill (substituting for Mr McGrady) Mr S Wilson (substituting for Dr Paisley) Mr M Robinson (substituting for Mr G Campbell) Mr N Dodds Mr C Murphy Mr F Molloy Ms M Gildernew (substituting for Mr J Kelly) Mr D Ervine Mr S Close Ms J Morrice Mr D Haughey Mrs B Rodgers Mr D Watson In the Chair: Mr F Cobain Observer: Mr N Boyd In attendance: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold ROLL CALL The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters. MINUTES The following changes are to be made to the minutes of 19 February. Change Matters to Members top of third page. Mr Dodds wished to make clear in regard to whether there should be a Statutory Committee to scrutinise the work of the FM/DFM and Junior Ministers that he viewed the situation as totally unacceptable and questioned whether it had arisen by accident. PAPERS There was some concern expressed at the high volume of papers with which Members had to cope in relation to Standing Orders and it was agreed that when substitutes were named officials would endeavour to get papers to them as soon as possible before the commencement of meetings. Some Members had not received papers before their arrival at today's meeting. PROGRESS Some Members expressed concern at the pressure the Committee now seemed to be under to meet artificial deadlines and Ms Morrice was asked to report on the discussion at the last meeting of CAPO on Standing Orders. She said that a line by line examination of Orders, lasting 2 days was in prospect and that it was suggested that if the entire Compendium of Standing Orders was not ready for 1 March a partial report could be taken. Mr McFarland asked if the Speaker had consulted the Joint Chairman on the proposed arrangements and was advised that he had not. Mr Farren suggested that the Joint Chairs meet with CAPO on the matter. Mr Dodds was concerned that the Committee had not met for a period after it had last reported to the Assembly. Mr Haughey explained the reasons for this. This had been made necessary by a train of events and was decided by the Joint Chairs, in whose hands the matter had been left. It allowed for a necessary period of redrafting by officials following the passing of the Bill so that considered drafts, reflecting the requirements of the Act could be put before the Committee. No approaches had been made by Members to reconvene on an earlier date. Mr Murphy asked if the Joint Chairs had had the opportunity to meet with the FM and DFM on the issue of a Committee to cover the Centre. Mr Haughey reported that attempts had been made to schedule a formal meeting, so far without success. He asked the Chairs to continue to press for a meeting. Both Mr Murphy and Mr Molloy emphasised the need to ensure that this matter was kept on the agenda. It was not good enough to have a non-statutory Scrutiny Committee for the Centre. Even if we had no power to change things we could recommend certain action. ASSEMBLY COMMISSION A number of Members asked whether there should be a Standing Order for the Assembly Commission. There was some discussion as to the number of Commissioners, but Mr Molloy pointed out that it was the same size as the Commission at Westminster. It was suggested that the Joint Chairs should discuss the matter with the Commission. However, it was pointed out that, unless the Committee wished to recommend a change to the membership numbers on the Commission there was no requirement for a Standing Order and in any event a Standing Order could be produced, as required, at any point in the Assembly's life.   COMMITTEES It was agreed that the introduction of the term House Committee (at the last meeting) was inappropriate in the context used and the term should become Standing Committee. RULES The following redrafted rules were put before the Committee and agreed with minor amendment: 38(Statutory Rules) 39(Ministers) 46(Non-Statutory Committees), 56(Order) and Rule 43(3) delete cross reference. sIt was agreed that Statutory and Standing Committees should have 11 Members (including Chairs and Deputies). It was also agreed that as far as possible the smaller parties should be given the choice of Committee seats. REPORTING It was agreed that the Committee would not, in view of some of the foregoing issues, report to the Assembly before 8 March 1999 and that Officials would communicate this to the Speaker. DATE, TIME AND VENUE OF NEXT MEETING It was agreed that the next meeting would take place on Friday 26 February at 2 pm in Room 135, Parliament Buildings. ADJOURNMENT The meeting was adjourned at 4 pm.           DENIS ARNOLD                        

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Friday 26 February 1999 at 2.00 pm

In Room 135 Parliament Buildings

  Present: Mr M McGimpsey Mr S Dalton Mr A McFarland Mr S Farren Mr E O'Neill (substituting for Mr McGrady) Mr S Wilson (substituting for Dr Paisley) Mr G Campbell Mr N Dodds Mr C Murphy Mr F Molloy Mr J Kelly Mr D Ervine Mr S Close Ms J Morrice Mrs B Rodgers Mr E Poots (substituted for part of the meeting during the absences of Mr Wilson and Mr Dodds) In the Chair: Mr D Haughey Observer: Mr N Boyd Apologies: Mr Cobain and Mr Watson In attendance: Mr M Barnes; Mr D Arnold and Mr J Gillespie ROLL CALL The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters. MINUTES The minutes of 23 February were agreed. MATTERS ARISING Mr Ervine raised the issue of Committee size which had been discussed at the previous meeting. He said that the smaller parties probably represented some 9% of the Assembly membership and that the agreed Committee size of 11 was discriminatory. A Committee size of 14 would be less discriminatory and he proposed that the matter should be revisited. There were rumours of a carve up of positions between the UUP and the SDLP and it was important to have a strong opposition. Ms Morrice supported Mr Ervine and said that larger Committees could better tackle the work. Mr Farren felt that the arguments surrounding this issue should be decided in terms of efficiency and not on places for parties. Mrs Rodgers said that she would have been happy with Committees of 14 Members particularly if not to do so would cause a sense of alienation, but at the same time efficiency and commitment were important. With 14 Member Committees everyone would be double booked. There was no easy answer to the quandary and 14 caused the SDLP serious problems. Mr Close thought there was a numerical advantage for the smaller parties in going for 14. Mr McGimpsey said that the choice of 11 was a compromise. The option range had originally been 10-14. Mr Campbell said that it was now a clear choice between 11 and 14. Mr O'Neill thought that the argument for 14 was unsound since it created 25 new places for the parties that would form the executive and only 6 for the `opposition'. Mr Ervine said that if need be he would move an amendment on the floor of the Assembly and have the matter resolved there. Mr Molloy spoke in support of the smaller parties and said that 14 might be a figure that would better facilitate involvement. Mr Dodds felt that Mr Ervine's argument taken to its logical conclusion would require every party to be represented on every Committee. He also saw little danger of the bigger parties who would sit in the Executive colluding together in Committee. Mr McFarland said that he had so far identified some 17 Committees of the Assembly and that larger Committees would cause enormous problems for the Ulster Unionists. He referred to Committees of the Northern Ireland Forum and said that anyone who had been involved with them would appreciate the commitment that would be required of Members. The Chairman identified no consensus and suggested that the Committee report should indicate a membership range of say 11-14. Mr Murphy felt that it would be better to be specific. Mr Ervine proposed that the Committee should revise its recommendation on committee membership numbers to 14. The proposal was seconded by Ms Morrice. The Chairman regretted that no consensus was possible on this issue and that he now had no alternative but to put the question. A vote was taken with the following result:- FOR AGAINST Mr Ervine Mr McGimpsey Ms Morrice Mr Dalton Mr Close Mr McFarland Mr Kelly Mr Farren Mr Molloy Mrs Rodgers Mr Murphy Mr ONeill Mr Haughey Mr Campbell Mr Wilson Mr Dodds As a result the proposal fell and the Committee's earlier decision on the matter which had been agreed without dissent, stood. Ms Morrice proposed that Statutory Committees should have a membership of 14 and other Committees should have a membership of 11. This second proposal failed for want of a seconder. RULE 2(2) It was agreed that the reference to 2 days in rule 2(2) would be changed to 3 days. PROPOSED MEETING WITH FM/DFM The Chairman reported that he had been unable to arrange a meeting with the FM and DFM but had had the opportunity of speaking with the DFM. The DFM felt that there may be a gap in Committee provision to cover the Department of the Centre. He undertook to talk to his advisors who would liaise with the staff of the FM on the matter. RULE 30 Members agreed a revised Rule 30 but it was agreed but Members could return to it at the next meeting if they considered this necessary. PROOF READING Mr Campbell and Mr Dodds drew attention to the amount of drafting and redrafting that had taken place and stressed the importance of allowing sufficient time for proof reading of reports before going to press. COMPENDIUM The remaining rules in the Compendium were agreed with the following amendments. Add to Rule 57 (Visitors) paragraph (3) of Rule 66 (News Media). RULE 68 (REMUNERATION AND PENSIONS) The chairman said that he had drawn this rule to the attention of the Speaker who had undertaken to come back to him. The problem related to the application of the rule - the rule itself was agreed. REPORT Members read through and agreed with minor modification the Committees draft report as far as Section 7. This brought the Committee on to the question of language. LANGUAGE Initially it was felt that Section 7 suitably modified to deal only with language reflected the Committees position to date. The chairman had made considerable efforts in the past both within the Committee and by negotiation with some parties outside the Committee to obtain a consensus - based Standing Order but without success. Some Members wished to take the matter further and achieve a resolution of this long standing issue and various formulations were proposed. Mr Close felt that he would like to test the meeting on the statement that "Members may speak in the language of their choice". The proposed Order was seconded by Mr Ervine. Mr Wilson thought that the statement was not a Standing Order. Mr Farren said that it might nevertheless become the basis of a consensus. A vote was taken on the matter with the following result. FOR Mr Ervine Mr Close Mr McGimpsey Mr McFarland Mr Dalton Mr ONeill Mrs Rodgers Mr Farren Mr Haughey The motion was carried. Mr Molloy proposed that a Standing Order should be framed which would read `members may speak in any of the recognised languages' of their choice. This would be footnoted with the formulation. 'As at / / the recognised languages of the Assembly are English, Irish Gaelic and Ulster Scots'. The proposal was seconded by Mr Kelly. Mr McFarland said that the committee had already agreed that provision of any form of translation service was a matter for others. The Chairman pointed out that this proposal, in fact, negated the proposal just carried "mem con", since the proposal carried had specified that Members might speak in any language of their choice, whereas the proposal now being put forward would limit Members to one of three recognised languages. The Chairman suggested that there were two issues involved: (i) that Members could speak in the language of their choice; and (ii) that specific recognition be given to certain languages - ie English, Irish and Ulster Scots. He suggested to Mr Molloy that if he were to frame his proposal in the following terms, it would not negate the first proposal which had been carried:- "That Members may speak in the language of their choice. The recognised languages of the Assembly at the date of publication of these orders are English, Irish and Ulster Scots." Mr Molloy agreed to amend his proposal according to the Chairman's suggestion. Mr Campbell said that the Agreement envisaged a recognition of other minority languages. The chairman repeated his view that votes of this type were divisive and went against the Committees aim of proceeding only where there was consensus. Mr Kelly said that there were people present who did not want Irish to be recognised. The question was put to the vote with the following result: FOR AGAINST Mr Kelly Mr Campbell Mr Murphy Mr Poots Mr Molloy Mr Wilson Mrs Rodgers Mr McGimpsey Mr Farren Mr McFarland Mr ONeill Mr Dalton Mr Haughey Ms Morrice The chairman took the view that there was no cross community element in this vote. Votes of this kind resulted in victories for one side or the other and only served to emphasise the need to work for agreement on such issues. The Chairman pointed out that the Committee had agreed, when it began its work, that it would proceed by consensus, and that where no consensus existed, they would simply report that fact to the Assembly. Mr Murphy asked whether it was necessary to proceed by consensus; he did not recall any such guideline. Mr Wilson said that while there was no legal requirement for a cross community vote in Committee the matter would in any event go to the Assembly and be resolved there. Mrs Rodgers said that the spirit of the Agreement was 'consensus' and proposed that all we should now report was that there was no consensus. Mr Dalton, in seconding Mrs Rodgers proposal, felt that it was wrong to put any particular languages on a pedestal. The Agreement only referred to `respect understanding and tolerance'. Mr Murphy and Mr Molloy felt that the last vote should stand and there was a prolonged exchange with the chair. The chairman felt that his conduct of the business had been questioned to a point where it was no longer of benefit for the meeting to continue. The meeting was adjourned at 4.50.           D ARNOLD                  

THE NEW NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY

COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS

Tuesday 2 March 1999 at 2.00 pm

In Room 135 Parliament Buildings

  Present: Mr F Cobain Mr M McGimpsey Mr S Dalton Mr A McFarland Mr S Farren Mr E O'Neill Mr M Robinson (substituting for Dr Paisley) Mr G Campbell Mr N Dodds Mr C Murphy Mr F Molloy Mr J Kelly Mr D Ervine Ms J Morrice MrA Maguiness (substituting for Mrs Rodgers) In the Chair: Mr D Haughey Observer: Mr N Boyd Apologies: Mr Close In attendance: Mr M Barnes and Mr D Arnold ROLL CALL The Chairman marked Members present noting those who were acting as substitutes or observers in accordance with the agreement on these matters. MINUTES The minutes of 26 February were agreed except that Mr Murphy thought that the earlier agreement on Mr Close's proposal should have been recorded as a Standing Order. Mr Murphy then proposed that the agreed wording should now be adopted as a Standing Order. Mr Kelly seconded this and emphasised that the aim was to make for an inclusive ethos. Irish should not be seen as a Catholic language - it was free standing and of very ancient origin. The proposal was agreed. REPORT The Committee returned to its examination of the draft report. Paragraph 7 Language - delete " 8 Read and agreed " 9 Read and agreed " 10 Read and agreed but put Procedures Committee in bold " 11.1 Read and agreed " 11 Remove all to 'when' on third line It was also agreed that matrix which had been used by the Committee to assist it in its consideration of Committee sizes should be appended to these minutes so that it will form part of the report documentation and appear for easy reference, at the end of volume (i). SCRUTINY OF CENTRE Mr Murphy asked that a paragraph be added to the report to reflect the Committee's dissatisfaction at its gap in the legislation in that there could be no Statutory Committee to scrutinise the work of the Centre. There was some discussion as to the most suitable wording and the agreed text is recorded at section 7 of the main body of the report. EQUALITY COMMITTEE The time-scale for the Equality Committee to report was agreed at '30 days after the motion is agreed to or at a time agreed by the Assembly'. VOTING IN COMMITTEE The question of voting in Committee was revisited and it was agreed that there should be a single rule 45(9) which will read: "All questions at a Statutory Committee shall be decided by a majority of the Members present and voting shall be by show of hands unless otherwise requested by a Member of the Committee." QUESTIONS It was agreed that the rule on questions should be amended to allow each questioner at least one supplementary question with further supplementaries at the discretion of the Speaker.   AMENDMENTS TO PUBLIC BILLS It was agreed to allow amendments to public bills only "in very exceptional circumstances" (Rule 33(1)) OTHER AMENDMENTS Minor amendments were agreed to other parts of the draft. COMMITTEES It was agreed that there should be two types of Standing Committee as follows: Committees that would fall into the category of Rule 45 on Statutory Committees and special Standing Committees that required a representative presence of every party in the Assembly. This latter category would consist of the following Committees: Procedures Standards and Privilege PAC Equality The rules are to be re-worked to reflect this. COMMISSION Mr Campbell and Mr Ervine both felt that the Assembly Commission was too small and could do with broadening. It was agreed that its membership should be increased to 11 with seats to be filled on a proportionate basis. A Standing Order to reflect this is to be added to the Compendium. WAY FORWARD There was some debate as to whether the Committee or a sub-group could review a further draft. Other options were also looked at such as the involvement of a third party to do proof-reading. In the end it was accepted that time was not on our side. The officials were thanked (and thanks were extended to Mr Carson whose absence was regretted) for their work and asked to proceed with printing at the earliest time feasible. CLOSURE The meeting was closed at 4 pm. No date was fixed for the next meeting but the Chairman felt that the future Committee on Procedures would meet infrequently.