UNPRINTED MEMORANDA
The following memoranda have been received by the Committee
but have not been printed. They may be inspected by Members in the Assembly
Library, and by the public in the Regional Development Committee Office, by
prior arrangement during normal working hours (Tel (028) 9052 1213)
Ballymena Borough Council
Banbridge District Council
Belfast Shipping Agents Association
Institute of Directors
NIPSA (Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance)
Port of Belfast Trade Union Side
Port of Larne
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
WEDNESDAY 21 JUNE 2000
Members Present:
Mr Alban Maginness (Chairman)
Mr McFarland (Deputy Chairman)
Mr Byrne
Mr Bradley
Mr C Murphy
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr Hay
Mr Hussey
Witnesses:
Mr Frank Cushnahan ) Belfast Harbour Commissioners
Mr Gordon Irwin )
The Chairman: Good morning, Mr Cushnahan and Mr
Irwin. You are very welcome to the Committee. This is a public session, and
a record will be taken of the comments made by members of the Committee and,
indeed, yourselves. This is an issue that has attracted the attention of the
Committee for quite some time. Members have heard and read quite a lot on the
issue, and we are very anxious to hear from you this morning.
Mr Cushnahan: Thank you very much. We are pleased
to be with you this morning. I am sure that all members of the Committee know
that Belfast Harbour has been engaged, since 1995, in seeking to establish a
proposal that, in the view of our board, represents the best interests of the
Port of Belfast and the Northern Ireland economy. I emphasise that it is not
for the personal gain of any commissioner or employee.
As members are well aware, the Belfast Harbour Commissioners'
preferred option is a public private partnership (PPP). We believe that it offers
the best prospect of achieving what is, in our view, the vision of a strong
Northern Ireland-based organisation operating and growing as a vertically integrated
transportation business. We believe that this option would add value to the
ongoing regeneration of the local economy. The Minister's Options Paper of February
2000 identified the PPP as one of the options - Option C - and also set out
an Option D, which the Minister referred to as a restructured trust port with
extended powers.
This was the first occasion on which those involved in
Belfast Harbour became aware that such an option was being considered. Given
that it is clearly the public route alternative to the public private partnership,
it is essential that any response from the Belfast Harbour Commissioners be
given careful and detailed evaluation. Our initial consideration raised more
questions than answers. I will leave copies of examples of the issues that we
believe require clarification.
In the absence of a Minister or the Assembly, we were
unable to clarify various areas of concern. For this reason we were reluctant
to proceed with a formal response to yourselves, because we considered that
it would have incurred significant expenditure, particularly on professional
advisors. Belfast Harbour Commissioners are of the view that a detailed and
rigorous study needs to be carried out on Option D or some alternative public
sector models, before a comparison can be made with a public/private partnership.
This is in contrast to a statement in the Options Paper
which suggested that if Option D, or some alternative public sector model was
favoured, then the Department would be required to undertake a rigorous study
of the implications before bringing legislation forward. We believe this puts
the cart before the horse.
However, if the real issue is one of political ideology
which does not embrace the visions and benefits embodied in a public/private
partnership, then it would be more sensible, and fairer to all concerned, for
such to be made known, to ensure that we are all operating within the confines
of government policy.
In summary, Belfast Harbour Commissioners brought forward
their public/private partnership option in the knowledge that Labour Government
policy embraced the concept. The public/private partnerships were accepted in
principle in the Chancellor's statement of May 1998. Belfast Harbour Commissioners
wish to know if it is the policy of the Northern Ireland Assembly to embrace
the concept of public/private partnerships, and in particular, what is proposed
for the Port of Belfast?
Belfast Harbour Commissioners recommend that the best
way forward is to conduct a detailed assessment of public route options before
a final decision on the Port of Belfast is reached. Finally, Belfast Harbour
Board welcomes the Minister's statement that it is his intention to resolve
this matter by the autumn.
The Chairman: Mr Irwin, do you wish to make any
further comments.
Mr Irwin: No. I would just like to reaffirm that
we did not make a formal response because we were unable to receive clarification
on a number of issues - I can give you examples on what is an important and
complex subject. I am also surprised that the Options Paper states that a detailed
and rigorous study will be carried out only when the Committee indicates a preference
for Option D. If I were on the Committee, I would want to have a detailed and
rigorous study carried out on Option D to enable me to compare it to Option
C - then I would tell people what I favoured. That is the normal way. No time
has been given for that, and we are not aware of any study that may have taken
place, or if any external advice was obtained and we will be placing a very
strong emphasis on that point in our summary remarks.
Finally, at the start of this long process we knew what
government policy was. However we are not clear on what the policy of the Northern
Ireland Assembly is towards public/private partnerships. If policy is not to
favour them, then we can go back and make a detailed study of public route options.
Whatever way you look at it, a detailed study on public route options is required
to compare them to a public/private partnership, or if a public/private partnership
is not government policy I think port users and, indeed everybody, needs to
be informed and the study will have to cover various public route options, because
there is more than just Option D.
Mr Cushnahan: I want to endorse that. We started
this process in June 1995, and we submitted our public/private partnership option
to the Government in December 1997. It took a considerable amount of our time
to reach that stage.
It also reflected our concern that such a decision would
ultimately be taken by the Assembly, so timing was important because the Assembly
would be associated with it. Since December 1997 we have been engaged in dialogue
with some of this Committee's members who attended our presentations. The process
was properly considered and debated. It seems odd to us that in a few weeks'
time a decision might be taken on a matter which, as Mr Irwin said earlier,
has not had an appropriate hearing. We consider it vitally important that an
evaluation be done as quickly as possible. We have, after all, taken great pains
on this subject.
The Chairman: Have you a document on Option D?
I have not seen it if you have.
Mr Cushnahan: No. We feel that it would be helpful
to your Committee if we presented you with some of the issues which we believe
need to be considered. They represent general views, prima facie observations
that we feel need detailed analysis. They are not a detailed list of what the
Harbour Commissioners consider to be problems, rather an indication of what
issues we believe should be considered in an evaluation. We are more than happy
to leave those with you when we leave. We do not intend to debate any particular
issue - that would require a study.
The Chairman: We understand that you have put a
lot of effort into the development of a public/private partnership approach
to dealing with the Port of Belfast, and it is fair to say that the Harbour
Commissioners are wedded to that. If the Government - and we are not the Government
- or the Department said that it did not favour the PPP option, but Option D,
a restructured trust port with extended powers, how would you react?
Mr Cushnahan: Before we responded we would have
to be assured that there had been sufficient evaluation on the matter to address
the concerns of the Commissioners particularly on our vision of a fully integrated
transportation business. It would have to assure us that Option D would provide
us with commercial, financial and managerial freedoms. These are a few of our
concerns.
The Chairman: The Department said in its Options
Paper - and I know that you take exception to this - that it would make a full
and vigorous study of the implications before bringing forward appropriate legislative
proposals on Option D. The Chief Executive has referred to that.
Knowing that that is the position of the Department, and
knowing that you cannot wish that away, what would the position of the Harbour
Commissioners be in the event of the Department's saying that Option D was the
preferred option? And it would have a full and rigorous study of the implications
before bringing forward appropriate legislative proposals. What would you say
in those circumstances? It seems to me that you are not going to get the full
and rigorous study that you are looking for, particularly when the Department
and the Minister have indicated that they wish to try to resolve this matter.
Mr Cushnahan: We have put our proposals in the
manner in which we believe they would be best managed. That has been done with
integrity and sincerity. We are as keen as everybody else to ensure that this
is dealt with conveniently. So, we are not in any way seeking to frustrate any
process proposed by you. Indeed we would seek to co-operate, and I assure you
of that. It is our preferred methodology, and it seems that the appropriate
way to do this is to engage very quickly in an evaluation now rather than on
a post-event basis. In that way, what you have on all sides is the co-operation
and mutuality of the parties concerned to complete it as quickly as possible.
But I emphasise that we would of course co-operate with the Department if that
was its expressed requirement.
Mr McFarland: The Harbour Commissioners, as I understand
it, have been looking at this since 1995. We first had a meeting with you, the
Chairman and me, and then you came and spoke to the Committee. I recall that
you explained at some length that you had spent five years or so developing
your PPP strategy. And you said that in that five years you had looked at all
the options in detail. You had examined them individually, discarded the other
options, and chosen PPP as the best option. I recall that one of the options
we discussed at that stage was extended powers, an option that, I think, you
had set since PPP appeared the best option on two counts: one it was government
policy, and, two, it was best for your business given your vision of the future.
How, at this stage, five years down the line, is there a suggestion that there
has not been enough study into the extended powers option, when in fact you
had studied it in detail?
Mr Cushnahan: That is a fair summarization
of the discussions that took place previously. What has changed basically is
that the word "restructured" has been put in. We have looked at a
trust port with extended powers, but what does a restructured trust port with
extended powers actually mean? And in that context, what is meant by a restructure?
We did look at a trust port with extended powers because there are parallels
for us to consider. So it is really -
Mr Irwin: That is absolutely correct, and the matter
is even more confused now because in departmental publications, the phrase "trust
port with extended powers" is used in the context of Londonderry and Warrenpoint
and the phrase "restructured trust port with extended powers" is used
in the context of Belfast.
Are there two different policies being adopted in respect
of the ports? Is this loose language, or very accurate language? We do not know
because we have had nobody to ask what the difference is between a trust port
with extended commercial powers and a restructured trust port with extended
commercial powers. Nor do we know whether it applies to Londonderry, Warrenpoint
and Belfast Ports? We have seen a departmental publication that suggests it
only applies to Belfast.
We never considered a restructured trust port but, as
our Chairman said, we examined trust ports with extended powers, as did Londonderry
and Warrenpoint. They submitted that as their preferred option in December 1997.
It was our second preferred option.
Mr McFarland: I have taken "restructured"
in this context to mean the transfer of land from your ownership into other
ownership. The detail may not be clear but the general thrust is clear. If I
had been a Harbour Commissioner and it had dawned on me that the Department
was looking at four or five options, I would have been hotfoot to the Department
to ask what they meant? Did you ask the Department to clarify it?
During the period when we were stood down and direct rule
Ministers resumed responsibility, I saw you, Mr Irwin, on television saying
that you had been in discussions and had urged that the Port be sold immediately.
I think that that was the thrust of what you said at the time: a decision had
been reached, and your favoured option was a public and private partnership.
Clearly, at that stage, there had been some discussion with the Department.
So, when this happened, did you rush to the Department
asking for clarification? If you did not, why did you not? Is it not strange
that, at this point further down the line, the Harbour Commissioners are still
confused about what the detail means when a quick phone call to the Department
would clarify the matter?
Mr Irwin: You have to go back to the report and
read and dissect it, particularly if you are up to the back axles in the subject,
as we are, and note that it says that this option goes further than a trust
port with extended powers. It explores ways in which the Port's assets - which
are more than land, I have to tell you - might be used to raise the required
finance, whatever that is, while retaining the Port in public ownership. Is
that trust port ownership? We cannot get the answers to these questions. There
are as many definitions of restructuring as there are people to speak to. An
exercise to determine definitions is required. People all understand the terminology
"trust port with extended powers", but once we move away from that
to "restructured trust port" then we open an enormous box of possibilities
as to what we are seeking to do.
It is not just a case of land. One view, according to
the report, is that it would, in theory, be possible to legislate to give government
access to cash held by BHC to use for increasing expenditure on local services
and that legislation could also be introduced to enable the harbour estate to
be restructured. When we spoke there was the issue of an ongoing subvention
that port users were going to have to pay for. Is that to be a tax on their
invoice? It could not be regarded as a port charge. It is a Northern Ireland
Government tax on Port of Belfast customers. But if you are at the Port of Larne
then you do not pay that tax. It is a Northern Ireland Government tax on a Port
of Belfast customer. In Larne, that tax is not paid. We asked people if there
will be an ongoing public dividend? Is that what restructuring means?
The Chairman: Could I clarify a point with you
before I call Mr Hay. You said that you are concerned about the concept of restructuring
and what that means. Are you saying that the Department was unable to give you
clarity or definition in relation to the concept of restructuring?
Mr Irwin: Yes.
The Chairman: And you sought the views of the Department?
Mr Irwin: We have spoken to the Department. Restructuring
is a concept that, as they have quite rightly said in their own language - and
it is just a matter of where it takes place in the process - requires a detailed
analysis.
We asked if restructuring would apply to Londonderry and
Warrenpoint, and we were told that it will only apply to Belfast. Belfast will
be a restructured trust port with extended powers and Londonderry and Warrenpoint
will be trust ports with extended powers. What the differences will be between
the two organisations requires a study. It has to be worked out.
Mr Cushnahan: Mr McFarland is correct.
We had a very useful discussion with the Committee in considering the issue
of trust port status with extended powers.
The restructured trust port proposal came forward, as
Mr McFarland will remember, during the last days of the Assembly. One issue
for us was that we would have had to engage advisors, as always, at great cost,
to carry out the examination and, with great respect to Mr McFarland, we were
not sure when the Assembly would come back into play. We were very keen to ensure
that when it did so we could get those matters addressed in their entirety.
There was no other reason whatsoever. The issue has just resurfaced. As I said
earlier, we will leave a number of examples of issues with you. You will see
that they open a box - and it is quite a large box. We would not have had this
problem if the issue were as simple as having a trust port with extended powers.
Mr Irwin: One defining singular difference between
a trust port with extended powers and a restructured trust port with extended
powers, subject to clarification and study, that could emerge is the business
of a restructured trust port, being part of the means of providing funds for
the public sector, and thus becoming part of the PSBR accounting system. That
has been confirmed to us. That would mean an enormous difference in the running
of the Port of Belfast as a restructured trust port and when compared to the
Ports of Larne, Warrenpoint and Londonderry. If you are a provider of funds
into the public purse you are clearly caught up in the government accounting
system and all that goes with it. We all know what that is like.
Mr Cushnahan: To attain our vision, one issue quite
rightly raised by Mr McFarland - and it concerned me - was if we needed debt
and equity. The consequences of having a restructured trust port with
extended powers were that we would have accessibility to debt, but not equity.
The extent of the debt that we might require, given our
vision, might also raise the issue about whether government would underwrite
such debt. It is very common in the United States for ports to be supported
by government. Would that be applicable to Belfast Port under a restructured
port proposal as distinct from it being a trust port with extended powers?
Those are just some of the many issues that arose, and
you can see that they are quite complex.
Mr Hay: I am a Commissioner for Londonderry Port
and it is very important that I inform the deputation of that fact.
Mr Hay: There is some confusion over extended powers
to trust ports and over the issue of a restructured transport system. There
is no doubt that this is something for the Department and the Minister to clear
up quickly. We should take a step back from this. At one point this was driven
by the announcement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, about
raising money to improve the infrastructure of the roads in Northern Ireland.
We were told that if the money, £70 million could not be raised, a number of
road schemes could not go ahead - Gordon Brown told us that. Gordon Brown did
not just decide one Monday or Tuesday morning that he would make an announcement
to look at the sale of Belfast Port to raise initial funds for the road infrastructure.
Somebody had to prompt him with that idea. We were told that many schemes could
not go ahead if the necessary money was not raised, but I think we have moved
on from that.
Some people were driven to look at the idea of selling
off Belfast Port to raise the necessary funding for roads. However, it no longer
drives us because a lot of the schemes that people said could not go ahead are
now going ahead, and we should clarify that as well. Trust ports in Northern
Ireland generally, Londonderry, Warrenpoint and Belfast have operated in a narrow
commercial field but have been reasonably successful. I do not think anyone
could tell us any one of them has not been reasonably successful in operating
within its narrow commercial fields. To have a turnover of more than £19 million
and a reserve fund of over £21 million is not bad, even in the straightjackets
of the commercial environment.
Leaving the issue aside, if there were real powers extended
to trust ports in Northern Ireland, do you feel that what you are offering in
private partnership would allow you to operate in a wider commercial field?
You would have to raise the necessary finance and look at a number of commercial
operations to get involved in. I am convinced that if the extended powers were
restructured appropriately, that would give you the necessary powers to enable
you to operate on a wider commercial field and still have the vision for Belfast
port.
Mr Irwin: I welcome what Mr Hay says. He is accurate
in saying that the trust ports have done very well. They are all efficient,
and, as stated earlier, all have a role to play. The market is small but mature,
and transferring traffic between ports will be reasonably difficult from now
on. Therefore, for any business to push on, it must have other objectives, targets
and motivation, and that is where the extended powers come in and where commercial,
managerial and financial freedoms need to be maintained. It is these freedoms
which have driven the trust ports forward, in our case for 153 years.
Perhaps a trust port with extended powers offers that
same concept. I am deliberately leaving out the word "restructured"
here, for I speak of ports like Warrenpoint and Londonderry and what they consider
is on offer to them. My understanding is that they do not know of the word "restructured"
in those Ports.
Mr Hay: That is right.
Mr Irwin: I cannot envisage treating Belfast any
differently from other trust ports in this country. If we speak of sensible,
significantly extended commercial powers, without bureaucratic meddling every
time we wanted to buy a pencil sharpener, allowing us to get on with our job,
with a transparency and accountability, then the differences between such a
trust port with extended powers and the PPP would enter into the margins of
debate.
In the long run, the PPP will deliver something better
for Northern Ireland, and it is more a political matter if one ends up not being
prepared to take that last jump. However, that debate would be in the margins.
Provided that the Port does not find itself in the position of "always
being subject to ministerial approval". It sounds very simple, but once
one enters the system to get a commercial decision, it can be a long time before
one emerges, and the world may have moved on.
With those important statements and the understandings
that Mr Hay and I have on the nature of the trust port with extended powers,
I have answered the question openly and honestly.
Mr Byrne: As Assemblyman Hay has said, we were
all dealt a difficult hand about a year and a half ago because of the Chancellor's
initiative. However, the Ad Hoc Committee and this Committee have had to take
into consideration the wider public interest, for this is a substantial public
asset, not just for the people of Belfast, but for Northern Ireland. It is therefore
important that we make the right decision, one we can all live with. The problem
with the PPP is that, in order to make it viable and successful for a flotation,
it will have to incorporate a great deal of non-port-related land, and that
is the issue which concerned us primarily.
I welcome the point Mr Irwin made that he could live with
extended trust port status like the other two ports, but there then arises the
issue of the activities in which the Port of Belfast is engaged that the other
two are not, but which constitute valuable assets - for example, the business
park and lands with economic potential. Have you any thoughts about living with
an extended trust port status? Would you like to retain the entire entity as
it is at the moment, or would you be willing to countenance the sale of some
parts of the non-port-related land?
Mr Irwin: It is very difficult to answer that question.
I understand the point that you are making. In general terms I would say that
someone has to run the estate. We put forward some proposals on land relationships
in the PPP, and the thinking of the Committee is bound to be influenced to some
extent by that. When you come to evaluate the degree of restructuring that Belfast
Port requires, we need to sit down and clarify what restructuring means.
You are saying that I have picked up on how I answered
Mr Hay, but I want to take you down the road of restructuring. The first point
in restructuring is land. Who knows what the next person will bring up, and
what the next person will bring up. As our Chairman has said, if you wish to
examine the proposal for a trust port with extended powers, but you would like
us to look at one or two others as well, you must tell us what you have in mind.
Then we can consider the issues and give you a detailed response.
Mr Cushnahan: In response to Mr Byrne, and following
on from what Mr Hay identified, we have £21 million of cash reserves. When one
looks at land, one may look at cash, and, having looked at cash, say that we
would like a dividend. Having lifted the land, and lifted the cash, we get back
to Mr McFarland's concern - and it is our concern too - that the Port has to
expand in some form. As Mr Irwin has said, we are in a mature market and organic
growth is not necessarily the means to an end. We require as much reserves -
and by that I mean cash and profit - to enable us to sustain investment in the
port for the purposes of our vision.
If the land, for example, is removed, however much that
may be, what also is taken, and, by the way, do the Government intend to keep
milking the cow? If that happens, given that we have no access to other markets
for profit, what is the future for the Port? These are the very issues that
Port commissioners deal with, as best we can and with integrity. Mr Byrne has
asked a pertinent question, but it moves us away from the matter of what could
happen to the reserves. Our reserves and profit are the most critical features
for us. If you strip out assets that are earning assets, you have less profit
and fewer reserves to do the things you wanted to do, and that is commerce.
Mr Byrne: Obviously we are trying to explore the
best possibility for all the people. We cannot be selective or subjective, so
when you raise concerns about restructuring, you also have to define what your
worries are. That is if you accept the principle that you could live with extended
powers for a trust port, as would be the case with Warrenpoint or Lisahally.
Finally, it is also incumbent on you to explain how you could develop the integrated
transport system which you envisage for the future Belfast Port.
Mr Irwin: When we move to the issue of the land,
what we said was that if there is a trust port with extended powers option -
which is the Derry or Warrenpoint option - the difference between that and a
PPP in Belfast is a debate in the margins.
Once you put the word "restructured" in front
of it, it ceases to be in the margins - it is not apples to apples. I listen
to you talking about the land as though it is there to be developed - it is
not. It is developed; it is a revenue flow. Some other person is not going to
come in and bring the public dimension to the development of it. The development
is agreed; the Sydenham Business Park is let. It is a revenue flow to either
a PPP or a trust port with extended powers.
Substantial areas of land were left behind in the PPP.
They are there for the record and are in the Options Paper. If they are taken
away from the trust port with extended powers, who is going to manage them?
Who is the estate agent? Who is the estate manager, and who is the recipient
of the revenue flows? It would be different if there were large tracts of undeveloped
land, and people were saying, "For the development of those lands, we would
prefer if it were under a more governmentally managed body". That is not
the case. We have demonstrated that in the Harland and Wolff and Shorts lands.
We have a very open mind on those and have stated that. That is the large amount
of land that should concern the public. Clearly there are issues round the Harland
and Wolff situation, and we all hope that goes the right way. The Sydenham Business
Park is virtually let in its entirety.
Mr Hussey: I am sure you would accept that the
structure of Warrenpoint and of Londonderry, is fairly similar and that the
Port of Belfast's is different. When one thinks of restructuring, perhaps one
is thinking in terms of an equalising of the various trust ports. From that
point you are going forward on an even footing as a trust port with extended
powers in line with the other two named ports, Londonderry and Warrenpoint.
Do you not see that as a way forward? Do you not see Port of Belfast operating
with similar structures to Warrenpoint and Londonderry, and being economically
viable?
Mr Irwin: If I understand that question there is
clearly the view that they are equal ports, equal businesses. I would disagree.
Mr Hussey: Could you define the term "equal"?
Mr Irwin: Equal in what they do. The Port of Londonderry
has a local hinterland niche. Time and time again we have demonstrated that
it has cargoes which we could not take away from them because of the cost of
road haulage - even if we charged nothing. Warrenpoint is the same. Belfast
is the major gateway port for this Province. The other main port in Northern
Ireland is Larne. It concentrates primarily on roll-on roll-off and passengers.
P & O run it, and P & O shipping and transport businesses generate the
majority of its traffic. It is a very singularly minded organisation, where
the interest of P & O is the main objective.
Belfast offers the complete range of port facilities,
including depth of water. Currently, for modern port maritime safety, we have
to spend £7 million widening the channel. Warrenpoint will not have to widen
its channel. The other ports do not have fast ferries, sailing in and out. This
is one of the busiest ports in the United Kingdom, the second busiest passenger
port after Dover. It is the ninth biggest port in the United Kingdom. If you
look at all the major ports, there is a massive infrastructure that must be
serviced between land and port.
Mr Hussey: Therefore should the Port of Belfast
not concentrate upon port activities?
Mr Irwin: No. If we want to concentrate on port
activities we may have to raise port charges to recompense for the money lost
from the rentals to cover common infrastructure. We are not competing with Derry
and Warrenpoint.
Mr Hussey: You are not competing, but they have
to work off their port activities.
Mr Irwin: But they will be getting extended powers.
Mr Hussey: So will Port of Belfast.
Mr Irwin: They might become involved in land then.
Mr Hussey: Are you going to stop them?
Mr Irwin: Under extended powers I am quite certain
that they will be able to move outside the Port limits.
Mr Hussey: Similar to the site of Port of Belfast.
Mr Irwin: We will also be involved in land so why
take the land off us?
Mr Hussey: Go from the same starting point.
Mr Cushnahan: We talked earlier about marginality.
It comes back to the famous words that are now used in all corporate entities,
"mission" and "vision". Vision determines winners and losers.
History shows that the businesses that survive do so because of the vision of
the leadership. My board looked at what was the vision for the Port of Belfast.
We took account of the infrastructural applications that Mr Irwin has mentioned
and took account of the facts that we are in a mature market and that organic
growth is limited. What will we need to ensure the ongoing sustainability and
viability of this Port, given that it is the major gateway to the Province?
With that vision in mind, and having taken advice from
external bodies, we decided that access to third-party finance will be required
to enable us to do things which would not have been permitted under a trust
board, even with extended powers. That is why we have taken so long to get here.
To take account of the public sector and public safeguards,
we have since December 1997, taken these points on board so that we could address
public concern. We have now reached a PPP as the best means of accommodating
public concerns. Our concern was to ensure that public safeguards are regarded
as critical to the success of the Port. It was the marriage of the two that,
as Mr Irwin said, made that marginality.
To summarise if you strip out all of this land you are
left with a port which has very little revenue stream growth. Therefore, if
you are on our board you ask whether you want a small manned port? Does it compete
with Dublin and other ports? After all, the Good Ship Lollipop has to pass Dublin
bay, and we are the port that has to handle that. That is what our board had
to do. It is our vision, and our vision could be wrong, but that is our best
shot.
Mr Hussey: Will the proposals reduce the amount
of dockage available? Will they reduce the amount of storage available behind
the dock fronts? I may be an inlander who does not understand fully the operations
of ports, but I would have thought that your dockage front and your space behind
is what is important.
Mr Irwin: It depends on how you define a port.
No port in the world fits that description. Small ports, normally called harbours,
would fit that description. Belfast is a major port and a major institution.
It manages a significant piece of infrastructure and a lot of public expenditure
inside its boundary. If you strip away the estate side of it, someone else is
going to have to pick it up. It cannot be port users because they will say "I
am only interested in the water, the quay and the storage land behind."
This means that the Northern Ireland Government will have to pick up the rest.
Believe you me, there is significant ongoing expenditure, year in, year out,
in Belfast harbour on basic infrastructure in the estate. I am sure you can
find that information.
Mr C Murphy: You seem to be surprised that there
has been an added degree of confusion with regard to restructuring and no full
explanation for it. Public opinion seems to think that any examination of this
should be carried out by Belfast City Council, by the Ad Hoc Committee of the
Assembly, which took quite a bit of evidence, and by this Committee. All were
in favour of retaining the Port in public ownership, of enhancing its commercial
powers but also of increasing its accountability. They all pointed in that direction
and we, as elected representatives, are reflecting that.
Option D is also favoured by other groups. Quite rightly,
most of the public Committees that I have looked at have not been swayed by
what I would regard as the sweetener from Gordon Brown's promised package for
roads. It may have affected some of the district councils in the areas where
those road improvements were to take place, but by and large, the public mood
has been to retain public ownership of the port and to increase its power and
accountability. I just feel that the Harbour Commissioners are refusing to engage
in this option in the hope that it will go away, but I do not think that it
will. We now have to decide what is meant by restructuring.
The Harbour Commissioners must accept that the public
mood is that the Port should be kept in public ownership with increased accountability
and increased commercial powers. There is legislation in the offing to deal
with trust port powers, and I cannot imagine that Derry and Warrenpoint Ports
are going to remain unaffected by that, and I imagine that there will be restructuring
in their powers as well. The debate is going to decide what powers the trust
ports will have, and I would like to see some acceptance of the public mood
that is in favour of the retaining the Port in public ownership. Let us examine
the options within that.
Mr Cushnahan: First, I strongly refute any suggestion
by Mr Murphy that we have not sought to make progress here. Nor have we been
against any suggestion, in relation to the proposal on the table, for a restructured
trust port. We have been applying democratic principles throughout. Prior to
December 1997 a direct rule decision could have been taken by the Secretary
of State. In fact, she was so minded. But we insisted that it be left to a local
Assembly. Under no circumstances have we sought to act contrary to the public
mood. Indeed, in putting the proposals to previous committees, we stated plainly
that the options which were fully considered by us did include, as the Chairman
well knows, that of a trust port with extended powers.
Now that you are considering a restructured trust port
it would be remiss of me and my board in discharging our fiduciary obligations
not to consider what is in the best interests of the Port of Belfast.
As I said before, we will of course seek to co-operate.
The cart is before the horse. If the Department were to make a decision, we
would co-operate, Mr Murphy. All of us here are working towards the best interests
of Northern Ireland and, particularly, the Port of Belfast. I am interested,
firstly, in the Port of Belfast, and, of course, in what is best for Northern
Ireland. I am sorry if I seem sensitive, but I do not accept that that is not
the case.
Mr Irwin: This point needs to be picked up from
what Mr Murphy said. The understanding in the Londonderry and Warrenpoint harbour
boards - I would like Mr Hay to comment on this - is that restructuring will
not apply. It will purely be an exercise in extending their commercial powers
-
Mr Hay: That is right.
Mr Irwin: - and he has confirmed that. That is
not what you are saying. That adds to the confusion. This term "restructured
trust port" only emerged in February 2000. There are one and a half pages
in this document setting out some of the thoughts and concepts of restructuring:
"this option goes further, in that it explores ways
in which the Port's assets might be used to raise the required finance while
retaining the port in public ownership."
That is an enormous subject. The Port's assets - its ongoing
profitability, its reserves, its land - might be used to raise the required
finance for other public services. Our board cannot dismiss something as serious
as that. It needs to be examined.
Mr R Hutchinson: You seem very touchy on this subject.
Mr Murphy's comments seem to have rattled you.
Mr Cushnahan: Mr Murphy was suggesting -
Mr R Hutchinson: I do not appreciate the lecture.
Mr Cushnahan: I apologise. It was not meant that
way. We did not come here to lecture the Committee. At the same time, Mr Murphy
suggested that perhaps we are seeking to frustrate the process in some way.
We have been waiting for this since 1995, and it gets very painful. That is
the last thing in the world we would do. I apologise if people think we are
seeking to lecture them. That is not our intention. We are trying to act honourably.
The Chairman: I am not going to stand in the way
of robust exchanges. They are often useful.
Mr McFarland: You are right. There is some confusion.
We need to clarify the business of the small ports and Belfast. We should set
the small ports well aside. We are looking at the biggest port in Northern Ireland.
It is big stuff. It is not a small port. Whatever trust port status is given
to the small ports, we are looking at the problem of Belfast.
We need clarification of several principles here. The
first area is this. This situation arose, in part, because Gordon Brown wanted
£70m for roads. That has clouded the issue. We need to work out if that money
is still needed from the port. In theory, if only a percentage of that is needed
from the port, or if we go to Option D, then the whole business of hiving land
away was originally made against the PPP only in order to safeguard the ownership
of the land. If land ownership is no longer an issue, the whole business of
taking land away needs to be re-examined. It may not be necessary at all. In
my view, you need enhanced powers if we are not going the PPP route; in order
to be commercially viable you need to be freed up. However, if some money is
required to go towards the Department for Regional Development's roads budget,
I presume some sort of deal could be worked out.
It may be possible to work out a deal whereby funds are
transferred to meet difficulties. Earlier we mentioned the Westlink, and it
is clearly in the Port of Belfast's interests to get this running because the
lorries come through there. If things are snarled up there, then there will
also be a problem at the Port. Another question is whether the Treasury will
take the balance of the money from the PPP. This is a matter for concern. If,
for example, it sold for £170 million then the Treasury gets £100 million and
we receive £70 million. This situation is objectionable. However if we take
Option D then this is no longer a problem.
We need clarification as to what the situation would be
if we took Option D. In principle are we going for Option C or Option D? Once
this is decided we need to investigate what this means in practice. Will there
be a problem with working out a deal to meet the requirement of the DRD to get
money for roads and, in turn, to ensure that the Port of Belfast becomes a commercially
workable port?
Mr Irwin: What you have said reflects, in an indirect
way, what Mr Murphy said earlier. He mentioned that the views of people throughout
this debate have come down on the side of not embracing a PPP, and I would accept
that that is the general view. However, there are times when the Government
have to govern and take a detailed analysis and make their decision. This is
the process they are in at the moment. Our document states that if the political
view is that you do not want a PPP, or Option C, then we have to focus on Option
D. We come back to Mr McFarland's point: what are the issues surrounding Option
D from the Port's point of view, and from the public's point of view?
In the past we have said that if there were a preferred
route - reflecting the political process and the people's views - then this
would be the route taken. We have identified that one of the key issues for
the Port is the Westlink. This is a job that needs to be done. In working out
a way forward under Option D we would like to see ourselves as a trust port
with extended powers at day one. In the same way as the Chancellor undertook
a one-off exercise, investigations into how the Port of Belfast could facilitate
a Westlink improvement, this would also be a one-off. If we are restructured
to fit in with the Public Sector Borrowing Requirement (PSBR) we could not call
it a trust port. We would have to remove the words "trust port" from
the definition of our title because trust ports by definition, do not fit into
PSBR regulations.
Mr Byrne: Mr Irwin and Mr Cushnahan, since this
has been a protracted discussion has it impeded the development of the Port?
In the present situation how soon would you like to see a final decision made?
Mr Irwin: Within the organisation the application
of management - as we look ahead through our normal five-year plan this is not
throwing up many exciting commercial opportunities in our present physical location
with our present powers.
Of necessity, we have been making commercial contacts
in the expectation that our powers are going to be extended, whether under PPP
or trust port status. The difficulty is that with the process being prolonged,
we have had to walk away from some of those initial contacts.
Mr Byrne: You have to accept that we are slow learners,
but -
Mr Irwin: It is a process that was never going
to be rushed. It is too important. The political process was getting up off
its knees, and our process got caught up with that. It is number one on the
list. Everybody understood that, and, as the Chairman said, we had to face the
ups and downs of direct rule, then the Assembly, then suspension and back to
direct rule again. We have been round the houses on this one.
People saw us as a body that did not know where it was
going, could not answer some very straight questions and had to put its hands
up and say "If you are in a hurry, you had better move on". Is it
catastrophic? No.
Mr Hay: The discussion this morning has moved things
on slightly. If the Department, the Committee, or the Minister goes for Option
D, we are going to find out the implications for yourselves. That is before
any new approval or regulations come through. If that is the option that we
seem to be favouring, would you then get involved with us in looking at the
finer detail? I am convinced that it is not just a matter of talking about the
extension of powers at trust ports. It is quite easy to say that, but there
is a lot more to it. It would be helpful to have a commitment that you would
come along at that stage and look at the finer detail.
In looking at the restructuring of the Belfast Port with
powers, we have to make sure that you will have the commercial freedom to operate
and have that vision and mission for the future of Belfast Port, Belfast and
Northern Ireland. We need a commitment, if we decide to go for Option D, that
you will not stand aloft and say "Bring forward what you think needs to
be brought forward to extend powers to trust ports, and we will come in on the
back of it." For this to work, there must be a genuine partnership between
us. We need to know, in a restructuring with extended powers, what you feel
needs to be in place to allow you to operate in the way that you want in the
future?
Mr Irwin: The point was made in the Chairman's
statement. In a sense you are answering our question on political ideology or
policy, albeit on an assumption basis. However, from the vibes I am getting,
I think I can interpret unwritten government policy. I will not call it option
D; I will call it the public route - perhaps along the lines of a trust port
with extended powers. I cannot ignore Mr McFarland's point that you wish to
explore ways and means in which issues relating to Belfast, like the Westlink,
can be addressed. As was correctly said earlier, a number of the Chancellor's
original road schemes are already announced and under way. The Westlink accounts
for some £40 million of the £70 million.
As our Chairman said, once that sort of decision has been
made, then we can come forward. We have to fight for public/private partnership
until you decide that public/private partnership is defeated.
Mr Hay: That is appreciated.
Mr Irwin: We have identified that the difference
between a trust port with extended powers and a public/private partnership is
marginal. All the ingredients are here for a purposeful, constructive debate
which can bring the matter to a satisfactory conclusion. I have been told by
a number of politicians who believe that our business is a guaranteed cash cow.
I refute that, and I do so based on my own personal experience. When I took
over the business we made £300,000 a year. I am not going to tell you what we
make now, you can read that for yourselves. Do you believe that that is guaranteed?
The only thing that guarantees it is the human asset that drives the business
on.
What happened to Marks & Spencer: wonderful stores,
great locations, fabulous fixed assets, where are they now? What happened to
C&A? They were in the middle of building a brand new store in the heart
of Belfast, and now they are closing. In my opinion, the one thing you must
do, no matter what structure is decided upon, is realise that is a totally commercial
business. It is one of the biggest corporation tax payers in Northern Ireland.
It is very efficiently run and you must not destroy that ethos. It must remain
capable of attracting people who are interested in running commercial ventures
- not bureaucrats. If the wrong structures are established, you will attract
administrative bureaucrats, and they will create a port quite unlike the one
we have now.
I deal with senior commercial players in the world of
shipping and business. They do not have to stay in Belfast and they can look
elsewhere. I want to make sure that this consultation process is not about asset
stripping the Port of Belfast, or of trying to make sure that further down the
road public dividends are still guaranteed. I do not believe that commercial
businesses can operate like that. It is completely demotivating to work inside
a business with that sort of environment. I know it would totally demotivate
me, but you do not need to worry about me because I have only a couple of years
to go. There are, however, people coming behind me who know the industry, and,
I stress, please do not demotivate them. They can sit at work, take their money,
and paddle every day, or, they can get up and work, and deliver commercially
because they are rewarded accordingly. Too many times people say to me it is
just there.
Mr Hay: It is good to hear about the commitment
this morning; that is important. Whatever option we look at, whether it be the
private sector or something else, and whatever route we go down, we need to
keep you involved to make sure that we get it right. We have that vision for
Belfast.
Mr Byrne: I support what Mr Hay has said. I also
pay tribute to the management staff of the Belfast Harbour Commissioners and
the way they have run the business; making it such an attractive port which
can compete much more effectively with Dublin. In the long-term we want to see
that Belfast port is allowed to develop sufficiently to compete successfully
with Dublin port.
Mr Bradley: Today we opened with the word "restructured",
which is, perhaps, playing a large part in the debate so far. In answer to what
Mr McFarland said, you were talking about the Port of Belfast rather than smaller
ports. I come from Warrenpoint and am very conscious of that. Do you see Warrenpoint,
Lisahally and Larne as opponents or as partners in the port industry?
Mr Irwin: The Port of Warrenpoint has some shipping
services that compete with us, primarily the roll-on/roll-off service. Operators
will always want to fill that ro-ro facility in Warrenpoint. It is an obvious
niche. We have accepted that it will always be there.
We will compete with Warrenpoint in bulks and break bulks
and they will compete with us. Road haulage distance rules us out of some trade
and Warrenpoint out of others. For example, timber coming right into the Port
of Belfast comes through Warrenpoint. That might surprise you, but it comes
into Warrenpoint because we just cannot get that traffic, even though it is
in our own backyard.
In the case of the port of Londonderry the competition
is chiefly in bulk cargoes. The only way in which we would ever score on bulk
cargo is if the importer seeks to buy a very large tonnage consignment and needs
a very large port with water deep enough to handle, for example, a 30,000-40,000
ton shipment of coal. That is the only area.
The Port of Belfast does not really compete with Larne.
Roll-on/roll-off shipping services in Belfast compete with P&O shipping
services. It will always be there. There will always be ro-ro out of Larne and
there will always be ro-ro out of Belfast. We have seen Stena move about a bit.
It came to Belfast, and now it has gone back to Larne. That proves the point
that these companies are primarily concerned with their profit and loss accounts.
We were not able to satisfy Stena's requirements on certain elements of their
business, namely their conventional ferries. However, I have no wish to discuss
these in an open forum.
The competition between Warrenpoint and Belfast and Londonderry
and Belfast is minimal and we see them as part of an overall port structure.
Dublin is obviously a major competitor, but that is a different kettle of fish.
The Republic of Ireland is now saying that it wishes to see a north/east port
authority formed, which will stop the squabbling between the small ports of
Drogheda and Dundalk. Now that Mr O'Rahally has passed on in Greenore there
will be an opportunity for some rationalisation and focusing. When that happens
Dublin will feel it, as will we all. Your home port will feel it very significantly,
because there will be an escape valve from the Dublin pressure pot and it will
not be as far up the road as Warrenpoint: it could be Drogheda.
Warrenpoint's main opposition is not Belfast, it is below
Warrenpoint. Look south to see the opposition.
The Chairman: Your answers and general presentation
have been very useful to us. The Committee would like clarification on what
a restructured trust port would involve. We know the general outline, but what
does it actually entail? I must assure you that we have not reached any conclusions
yet.
In our statement of 9 February we said that we were conducting
a formal inquiry into Option D of the options paper. That was without prejudice
to the other options, and I want to emphasise that to you. We do not formulate
government policy, or indeed, the Department's policy. We hope to strongly influence,
however, and we hope that the Department and the Government will accept our
views on issues, but, unfortunately, for the time being, we do not formulate
government policy.
In relation to PPP I want to raise one last point in relation
to the golden share. It is very clear from the options paper that the golden
share was put forward as a permanent protection, and we were all working on
that basis. The Harbour Commissioners, the Department and ourselves, as politicians,
were working on the basis that the golden share would permanently protect the
port and prevent it's being taken over by a predatory company. It is clear from
the Options Paper, and from what has happened in relation to the British Airports
Authority case, that the European Commission does not view the golden share
as being a permanent protection. But you could have a qualified golden share
which would provide temporary protection. In view of that, and the emphasis
which you put on the golden share as a protection to prevent predatory take-over,
do you have any comment to make, given what you know now - rather than what
you and others knew or thought you knew several months ago?
Mr Cushnahan: You are absolutely right
that we, as part of our plank, were obviously seeking a retention of the golden
share. Indeed, we like to use the words "in perpetuity" which, of
course, would not be the case. But certainly that is what we had and as subsequent
events have proven, and as you have quite rightly described, that basically
is not the same as the original thoughts that we had on it.
In looking at the golden share again what we do believe
is that it would be available to us for a period of not least five years. That,
in itself, does not satisfy us, but in conjunction with other things, it means
that the management of the Port of Belfast has five years to demonstrate through
its prowess that it can develop the Port substantively thus making it very difficult
for anyone to make a bid for the Port during the period that we have a golden
share in its form.
The second thing that we majored on was the fact that
to overcome that weakness, we were looking for government - and by that I mean
the Northern Ireland Assembly - to take a greater stake. We thought the stake
might have been 15%, 22% or 25%. Of course, if you associate that with a local
placement which would probably be in the order of 15% or 20% for local residents,
it follows that the control elements effectively are already in place. I argue
that the Government, if it is the Assembly, has the controlling element of that.
One would not like to think, although we have addressed this previously with
Assembly Members, that one would sell the golden assets as a result of holding
that equity stake. So it was a combination of the equity by government and retention
by local people, and there would also have been, additional to that, a small
minority interest by members of the staff in the port. Effectively, we saw that
control was still resident here. The golden share, if it had been in the Order,
would obviously have been the gilt on the gingerbread. Our board looked at it
that way, and, having done so, we are still of a mind to support the PPP. Gordon,
do you want to add to that?
Mr Irwin: Many other things, when coupled together, offer
assurance. They are not the same as our watertight, evergreen golden share -
and, if they were to be set out side by side on paper, nobody would ever claim
that they were. As the Chairman said, it is difficult to see the company's being
taken over, but the Government might have decided to use their golden share
and permit a take-over - there is no guarantee against it. The public are against
take-overs, but because of the European Union view on golden shares, they are
no longer a viable way of stopping it from happening.
You are correct about the five-year period. Her Majesty's
Government clearly have an ambitious public/private partnership programme, but
they have been thrown back on their heels by the golden share position of the
European Union, and so the best of brains are working on an alternative.
The Chairman: Thank you for your attendance. Your contribution
has been useful, and the exchanges have been good. We will consider Option D
very seriously, and without prejudice to any of the other options. We will make
our minds up as soon as we can, taking into account all the information we have
been given and the time available for our deliberations.
Mr Cushnahan: Thank you, Mr Chairman.