Mr John Dowdall, Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) was examined.

Mr Brian Delaney, Deputy Treasury Officer of Accounts was examined.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's Reports on Fire Authority for Northern Ireland: Fleet Management (NIA 9) and the Fire Authority for Northern Ireland Accounts for 1998-99 and 1999-2000 were considered.

Mr Clive Gowdy, Accounting Officer, (Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety), Mr John McClelland (Chief Fire Officer), Mr Leslie Sloan (Head of Public Safety Unit - DHSSPS), Mr Don Hill (Principal Establishment and Finance Officer - DHSSPS) and Mr Jack Kennedy (Assistant Chief Fire Officer) were examined

* * * *

Members Present:
Mr B Bell (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Carrick
Mr Close
Mr Dallat
Mr McClelland

1.
The Chairperson: Before we commence proceedings I want to welcome Mr Michael Finucane, the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee in Dublin, and his colleagues Mr Pádraic McCormick and Mr Conor Lenihan here this morning. Accompanying them is Mr Patrick Timmins, the Clerk of the Public Accounts Committee, and Mr Declan Galvin, the liaison officer from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This is a return visit, as we visited Dublin a couple of months ago. We learned some lessons, and I hope that during this hearing they will be able to learn some lessons and have a fruitful meeting with us.

2.
I also welcome Mr Gowdy, a regular visitor to the Public Accounts Committee, Mr Hill, Mr McClelland, the Chief Fire Officer of Northern Ireland and Mr Kennedy, the Assistant Chief Fire Officer. I assured Mr Gowdy earlier that this Committee will be interrogating them this morning - we will not let the Dublin crowd loose on you.

3.
Today we are dealing with two aspects of Fire Authority business - management of the vehicle fleet and matters arising from the 1998-99 and 1999-2000 accounts. In the interests of simplicity we will be referring to the published report as the blue report, to the 1998 accounts as financial report number one, and to the 1999-2000 accounts as financial report number two.

4.
Before I put questions to Mr Gowdy, I also want to welcome Mr Dowdall and his team from the Northern Ireland Audit Office and Mr Delaney from the Department of Finance and Personnel.

5.
I am looking at the report, Mr Gowdy, and I understand that your Department took over responsibility for the Fire Authority for Northern Ireland on devolution. How would you describe your role as accounting officer and that of the Chief Fire Officer in overseeing the Fire Service?

6.
Mr Gowdy: I am the departmental accounting officer responsible for all the expenditure that the Department incurs. As part of that we fund the Fire Authority, which is a non-departmental public body. I have a relationship with the Chief Fire Officer - he is the accounting officer for the Fire Authority expenditure and accountable to me for that.

7.
The Chairperson: Paragraph 1.16 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report says that

"The allocation of vehicles to anyone at public expense should be justified by operational need."

It recommends that the Fire Authority

"should undertake a full review of vehicle deployment, leading to updated allocation and rotation of policies."

8.
This report is a year old. Have you done the recommended fleet review, and what was the outcome?

9.
Mr Gowdy: We wanted to ensure that this was studied in detail because we appreciated the point that the report made. The provision of cars to officers is part of the operational need of the authority. These cars are not provided as a benefit; they are designed to help the operational efficiency of the organisation. During off-duty times incidents occur which need a quick response. Officers need to get in quickly by car, so cars are provided by the authority.

10.
The issue was the extent to which the cars were needed by all who had them. A review has been carried out. HELM Corporation Ltd was engaged as an outside consultant to take a hard look at the issue. Given that we need people to get in quickly, is a car the better way of doing this, or should we pay people a mileage allowance for using their own cars? HELM Corporation Ltd determined what it described as a break-even point between the costs of providing a car and the benefits of doing so against the payment of mileage allowance for using an individual's own car. As a result, we determined that 17 of the cars currently provided are at or below that break-even point. We are considering the possibility of removing them and paying mileage allowance instead. A very substantial review was undertaken, and that was the outcome.

11.
The Chairperson: Mr McClelland, would you like to comment on that?

12.
Mr J McClelland: When the audit was carried out, there were 162 cars. We have reduced that to 149 with, as Mr Gowdy said, the potential for removing another 17 following the HELM report. It should be understood that of those 149 vehicles, 96 are on allocation to officers on the flexi-duty system.

13.
That is an extended duty system whereby people do office hours and are then available to provide operational supervisory cover from home within their call-out areas. Those 96 officers provide incident command support at the scenes of operations, investigations into disciplinary and health and safety matters and other out-of-hours work. The cars are not available for private use.

14.
The Chairperson: That is useful to know. Perhaps you will send a copy of the report to the Committee Clerk.

15.
Mr J McClelland: We will do that.

16.
The Chairperson: Paragraphs 1.10 and 1.11 refer to the Fire Authority's view that rotating fire appliances would shatter the sense of community spirit that leads people to become retained firefighters and would undermine their contribution to the Fire Service. How can it possibly be a good use of public funds to provide a new fire appliance, costing well over £100,000, to a retained fire station where it may get relatively little use? Surely it should go to a busy full-time station where you could maximise the benefit of investing such a large sum.

17.
Mr J McClelland: In the first instance it seems sensible that appliances should go to the busiest stations and that they should work up significant hours attending incidents. However, in the Northern Ireland Fire Brigade, cover is predominantly provided by retained personnel. These are part-time fire fighters who have other employment and attend a fire station by way of a pocket alerter system. We have over 900 retained firefighters and a similar number of full-time staff. The full-time staff serve in a limited number of stations in Belfast, Londonderry and the larger towns. In the rest of the country, fire cover is provided by retained personnel.

18.
Retained personnel are increasingly difficult to recruit and keep in post. How we care and provide for them is important to maintain their moral and civic pride. They can feel like second-class citizens if they are given second-class appliances, and that must not happen.

19.
As Chief Fire Officer, I consider that part of the argument to be substantial and over and above the financial consideration. However, the Audit Office did suggest rotation, so we carried out a study to determine whether there was a significant cost differential between rotating and not rotating. If you allocate a fire appliance to a busy full-time fire station, its life expectancy is less than if it were allocated to a quieter retained station. At a full-time busy station you might get six, eight or possibly 10 years out of an appliance before you would hold it in reserve or put it into the training fleet. However, if you put an appliance into a retained station, its life expectancy extends to 12, 14 or even more years, depending on how well it has been looked after. As I said earlier, retained firefighters tend to look after their appliances better. They feel that they own them.

20.
We also factored in the fact that an appliance in a full-time station would, after a certain time, require refurbishment before it could be reallocated. When we added up the costs there was very little difference between the cost of a full-time fire appliance and that of a retained fire appliance. That plus the non-financial issues of motivation, morale, civic pride and so forth, lead us to firmly believe that, for now, our policy of maintaining the status quo is the right one.

21.
However, we will have to consider the newer range of appliances that we may put on the run and our policy on the allocation of vehicles once the risk-based fire cover review has finished. We are not saying that in future some other option will be open to us. We will keep an open mind.

22.
One appliance that was recently taken off a full-time station's run for repairs had 273 strike marks on it as a result of bottles, bricks and other missiles. It needs a major overhaul of its bodywork before it can be reallocated. We have taken the relevant factors into consideration and believe that, at the moment, the status quo is right for the Northern Ireland Fire Brigade.

23.
The Chairperson: Can you give the Committee a copy of the study that you mentioned?

24.
Mr J McClelland: Yes, we can.

25.
Ms Ramsey: No one here today wants to attack the morale of the Fire Authority. I appreciate the great job that you do, particularly in times of need. However, the role of the Committee is to scrutinise and justify public spending, to make sure that public money is spent properly. Figure 3, on page 19 of the Audit Office's report gives details of the type and number of cars allocated. Why are cars of a higher specification for senior officers necessary for the conduct of Fire Authority business?

26.
Mr J McClelland: That is historic. I use my car for performing duties in the parish - visiting stations, personnel, and local offices, dealing with staff morale and inspections - and for official functions. I have dignitaries to entertain from other brigades and elsewhere. The type of car that I and others use is regarded as appropriate for that work and in keeping with the official cars used by other organisations.

27.
However, I accept your point about the public purse. While those are higher specification cars, we purchase them through the Home Office's procurement scheme at a greatly reduced price. We are not buying at high street prices and paying through the nose. The vehicles we use are appropriate for the execution of our duties, and we procure them at the best possible price.

28.
Ms Ramsey: Can we have a copy of the price list so that we can compare those prices with high street ones? According to the figures, 27 cars are allocated for station officers and 53 for deputy divisional commanders. Can we have a list of the actual incidents they attend - and I appreciate that you may not have that list with you - so that we can compare it with the attendance list of other fire officers? Can we also have a list of the civic duties that they carried out?

29.

30.
The Chairperson: That is what we require, because of the complexity of the situation.

31.
Ms Ramsey: Paragraph 1.14 of the report says that cars are allocated to enable a number of civilian staff to provide 24-hour cover and that those staff include people responsible for property services and systems management, some of whom are rarely called out of hours. Why provide cars for them? Why not let them use their own cars, as Mr Gowdy suggested, and pay them mileage?

32.

33.
The property services manager and his deputy are out and about in the organisation on a daily basis dealing with building projects, repair and refurbishment projects, building applications and the development and maintenance of the estate. We have an extensive estate with 67 fire stations and a range of other buildings. The vehicles are used extensively during the day, and call-out cover is required at night and at weekends. It is fair to say that while those people may be rostered to provide emergency response at weekends, they also make station visits and audits.

34.
Ms Ramsey: The report says that the Comptroller and Auditor General examined two of the log books. In a two-year period, one car was used twice and the other seventeen times on call-outs.

35.
Mr Gowdy: As accounting officer, I was also concerned about that. I am comforted by the Helm report, which gives a break-even point. Any car whose use falls below that point is now rigorously examined to justify retaining it. The Chief Fire Officer and his staff are examining the possibility of mileage allowance for low use cars, as Ms Ramsey suggested.

36.
Mr J McClelland: The two vehicles were the stand-by vehicles provided for brigade control. The central control room for the whole of Northern Ireland is in Lisburn, with a stand-by control room at another location. Those two cars were provided in the event of a serious incident that required the evacuation of the control centre. Our mistake was not to rotate them. They are now in the pool and rotated so that no vehicles is allocated for that sole purpose. The control room cannot be evacuated in one sweep so two vehicles are on standby. Half the duty personnel travel to the second location in the first car. They put the second location into operation after which the main control centre is shut down. The rest of the staff then follow in the second vehicle. That was the reason for two such vehicles.

37.
Ms Ramsey: Was the Audit Office informed of that?

38.
Mr J McClelland: I believe so, but the point was that two vehicles with low mileage were not being used regularly.

39.
Ms Ramsey: The same paragraph says that there were deficiencies in the logbooks that made it impossible to identify how much private mileage was done. Why were proper records not kept?

40.
Mr J McClelland: There are two issues: the inadequate maintenance of the logbooks in accordance with the policy at that time and how to differentiate between service mileage and private mileage. I admit that the logbooks were not kept in some instances in accordance with the standard laid down in brigade policy. An unacceptable level of slack crept into the situation. That was pointed out and corrected. Mr Kennedy put a process in place to ensure that the logbooks are audited regularly.

41.
The second issue involves differentiating between service mileage and private mileage. I have told the Committee that the 96 flexible duty officers use their cars continually. They do not have private use of the cars when they are off duty. However, they attend meetings, their stations and other business in off-duty time and are permitted to use the cars for that.. The issue being debated is whether it should count as a private journey when an on-duty officer who is not attending an incident goes from a fire station or his home to a corner store to buy a newspaper.

42.
You must understand the conditions of service under which these people operate. They operate on a continuous duty system that gives them freedom of movement in their call-out areas. They cannot have freedom of movement without a car because it carries their firefighting and safety equipment and anything else they might need to deal with incidents when they are out. They must have the vehicle with them, but being out and about in their areas in the car when not responding to an incident is regarded by some as making a private journey.

43.
The representative body is resisting that, and a case being brought by the union using Northern Ireland as a case study is pending. The case is due to be heard by the tax commissioners shortly, and they will determine whether those journeys should be regarded as private miles or service miles. In the meantime, the tax office, to protect the interests of the state, deducts money from each of the flexi officers under the heading "benefit in kind".

44.
Ms Ramsey: Are proper logbooks now maintained? Do they record the date, time and purpose of any journey?

45.
Mr J McClelland: I do not think that it records the time of a journey, but it does record the date, extent and purpose of a journey, the miles covered, the fuel used and the signature of the office concerned.

46.
Ms Ramsey: The financial report says that the local government auditor also found significant underusage of cars allocated to headquarters staff and suggested a reduction of at least 15 in their number. Has that happened?

47.
Mr J McClelland: At the time of the audit, the total number of cars was 162. It is now 149. Our initial intention was to reduce it to 147, but I have to take operational needs into account. The information that I have been getting from my area commanders and other heads of departments is that they are finding it difficult to deal with the logistics of moving people back and forward for various activities, including training courses, because the number of vehicles available is not adequate. Rather than go to 147, we are at 149 for the time being. We will keep the situation under review.

48.
In addition, the Helm report identified 17 vehicles at or below the cost-effective threshold. Those will also be kept under review, and a decision will be made soon about whether or not we should seek some other form of vehicle provision.

49.
Ms Ramsey: How many cars are allocated to headquarters? The auditors recommend that they should be cut by at least 15.

50.
Mr J McClelland: I do not have the number immediately available. Mr Kennedy will find out and let you know.

51.
The Chairperson: You can let us have it at a future date. The main thing is that we get it.

52.
Mr Gowdy: Looking at the financial report, I think the local government auditor was talking about reducing the overall number of cars by at least 15. Particular attention was drawn to underuse at headquarters, but I read the intention as being to reduce the overall number by 15. It was reduced by 13 straight away and another 17 are being examined following the Helm report. There is a distinct possibility that the recommended reduction by 15 cars will be exceeded.

53.
Mr D McClelland: Paragraph 1.6 on page 16 says that the authority spent over £200,000 on hardware and software for its geographical information system, that it spends £30,500 per year on leased mapping information and that it plans to spend up to another £130,000 per year to cover all of Northern Ireland. Do you still plan to extend that system to cover a greater part of Northern Ireland?

54.
Mr J McClelland: The method of determining fire risk in the United Kingdom is under review. We use standards of fire cover that originated in 1947 and were last updated in 1984. We use the 1984 standards. Two years ago the Home Office decided to introduce a risk-based approach, building by building, street by street, to determine fire risk and the number of appliances to be used in an operation and response times. In urban areas, such as inner cities, there is a demographic shift in different parts of the day and night and at weekends. In the centre of London you might have 10 stations fully staffed and equipped during the day, yet the risk assessment approach might suggest that you only need three fully staffed at night, and a few are partly staffed at night.

55.
You can use resources much better with the risk-based approach, but you need the information that is provided through the geographic information system. We moved towards that using Ordnance Survey information for Northern Ireland. Given the status of Ordnance Survey and the business conditions imposed on it, it charged us the full price for its information originally. We now get a better deal, but the cost is still significant given what brigades in Great Britain pay.

56.
They pay less than we because fire brigades are part of local government there, and county councils have service level agreements with Ordnance Survey. The fire brigades' contribution to obtaining Ordnance Survey information such as we get is only 9% of the total cost that the service level agreement requires a county council to pay. We still pay through the nose for that yet we need the geographic information to be able to do the risk-based assessment in the way that the Home Office prescribes. However, I agree that the cost of obtaining that information is high.

57.
Mr Kennedy has been in discussion with the Ordnance Survey and other organisations to try to get a better deal. We have not secured that yet, although matters have improved. If we are to do the risk-based assessment as prescribed, we need the information. However, we will decide if it is too expensive and if we should proceed when we know the outcome of the consultation.

58.
Mr D McClelland: That explains why the cost is higher here than in Great Britain, and I understand your argument. Serious money is tied up in this, and I am trying to find out whether a correct economic appraisal was carried out and whether you intend to carry one out in the future.

59.
Mr Gowdy: Speaking as the accounting officer, we make it clear to all the bodies we work with that we need a business cases for any substantial expenditure, and we will require one for any substantial extra expenditure on this. Having said that, this system is highly effective and very impressive. It is very flexible and contains a lot of information. It looks like the right way to go, but clearly any substantial expenditure must be justified by appraisal.

60.
Mr D McClelland: You now accept that an economic appraisal has to be carried out.

61.
Paragraph 4.20 says that the Fire Authority obtained approval to purchase the site at Boucher Crescent, and the report shows that site as having spare capacity. Why was it decided to buy a site that is much larger than necessary?

62.
Mr J McClelland: When we secured the Boucher Crescent site our intention was to transfer the transport and technical workshops, and possibly the stores facility, from brigade headquarters to improve capacity as office space and other facilities are limited. Having taken an initial view of the standards of fire cover in the Belfast area, we also considered using the Boucher Crescent site for a satellite fire station. Instead of having all resources on the Lisburn Road, we might split them.

63.
We purchased the site with the view to having some or all of those facilities there, particularly the transport workshop. The facilities for that at Lisburn are inadequate to enable us to do the necessary work. Also, given the health and safety implications of equipment maintenance, the technical services resources at headquarters are inadequate. We are unable to do what needs to be done, particularly testing ladders and other large pieces of equipment. They have to go to England by the lorry load for testing. We identified problems that had to be addressed, and the fortuitous availability of the site at Boucher Crescent gave us an opportunity. Not only could we provide a much-needed training centre, but we could deal with some other emerging issues.

64.
Mr D McClelland: Was any more development carried out at the site, or is there still spare capacity?

65.
Mr J McClelland: There is still spare capacity, but it is all subject to funding. We are approaching this on a phased basis, and we have a business case with the Department for a further phase of development for training activities - to deal with breathing apparatus training and maintenance.

66.
The Chairperson: There is a new station in Bangor with spare capacity. Do you have any plans for that?

67.
Mr J McClelland: We are in advanced discussions with the Northern Ireland Ambulance Service about the possibility of its using part of the building as an ambulance station. We have agreed with the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety that that would be a good arrangement.

68.
Mr D McClelland: Paragraphs 8 to 10 of the financial report refer to amounts paid by the Fire Authority for staff administration following job evaluations. Paragraph 9 shows the amounts paid in 1998-99 and 1999-2000 - together they total just over £135,000. How much was paid in 2000-01?

69.
Mr Gowdy: I understand that that sum was £68,047.

70.
Mr D McClelland: In some cases the Fire Authority did not identify changes in job descriptions, but upgraded the policy through backdated pay. That is difficult to comprehend. Why did that happen?

71.
Mr Gowdy: We must ensure that any payment of arrears is justified. The Fire Authority decided that the rate for the job should be paid where appropriate. Mr McClelland may want to add to that, but we must know that any payment of arrears is justified by the requirements of a job description.

72.
Mr D McClelland: Did that happen?

73.
Mr Gowdy: That was before I became involved. I am not sure if Mr McClelland can add to that.

74.
Mr J McClelland: The situation to which you refer involved people being recruited to the Fire Authority to do work that had not been done before, such as IT work. That type of post had not existed in the organisation. Once the initial post was created, the job was re-evaluated after one year. Payback means that you pay someone back to the point at which he started to carry out his duties.

75.
Mr D McClelland: I accept that, Mr McClelland. However, it becomes difficult to justify if there is no change in a job description. There is a perception, real or not, that a substantial number of people in the public services reach retirement age and have their job descriptions altered or their posts upgraded. Pay is backdated with a view to their pensions rather than to value for money for the public.

76.
Mr J McClelland: I accept what you say. The problem was that the people to whom you refer were not properly graded at the start. We did not know at what level to grade them.

77.
Mr D McClelland: From whom did you seek opinion?

78.
Mr J McClelland: We sought opinion from Belfast City Council. We do not carry out those re-evaluations in-house. The Whitley Council scheme is in place, and I am sure that you appreciate that that was agreed by the representative bodies. Belfast City Council carries out re-evaluations on our behalf as it is licensed to do that. The job description is agreed with an individual's line manager, and the decision of Belfast City Council on the grade is adopted.

79.
Mr D McClelland: There is a difficulty in keeping personnel, by which I mean part-time firemen. Am I right in saying that there was a public advertisement for full-time firemen a year or two ago, to which you had a substantial response? Can you tell me approximately how many responded?

80.
Mr J McClelland: We advertise every year for full-time personnel and receive from 4,000 to 6,000 enquiries for the different positions. Recently we have recruited about 50 full-time members of staff annually.

81.
Mr D McClelland: So you get between 4,000 and 6,000 enquiries for 50 jobs. Narrowing 4,000 to 6,000 enquiries down to 50 successful applicants is an incredibly difficult job. Can you tell me how you shortlist the 6,000 enquiries to identify interview candidates for those 50 jobs?

82.
Mr J McClelland: We advertise and send out recruitment packs. We normally get 1,500 or more completed applications and examine them to see that the applicants satisfy the basic criteria, after which we invite them to an assessment centre. The assessment is a set of what I call "tests", although purists might disagree with the term. The UK fire services agree that they represent an unbiased set of job-related tests including such things as a lift test for upper-body strength and a stamina test known by those in the world of athletics as the "bleep test", where you must run back and forward over a 20m stretch, with the time allowed constantly decreasing. As you exert more energy and tire you must complete the task more quickly. We have a limit of 9·6; that is our test standard. We conduct tests on running and manipulating hoses, ladder- climbing and, to test upper-body strength, ladder- extending. Having faced those tests, candidates sit a written paper, and a number are selected for interview on the basis of their scores.

83.
Mr D McClelland: I ask because some of my neighbours who have A levels, and therefore of reasonable intelligence, and who were also all-Ireland and Commonwealth boxers, and so presumably reasonably fit, were quite taken aback that they were deemed not capable of carrying out the tasks of a fireman and not shortlisted for interview. I say that as an aside, something that should be examined.

84.
Mr Gowdy: The Fire Authority has a code on recruitment and selection procedures; if it helped the Committee, we should be very happy to provide it.

85.
Mr D McClelland: I should be very pleased to receive it.

86.
Mr Gowdy: Perhaps you will also wish details of the bleep test.

87.
The Chairperson: As long as you do not ask me to do it.

88.
Mr Carrick: Perhaps I might refer you again to financial report number one and the use of credit cards, which is dealt with in paragraphs 6 and 7. My first question is to Mr Gowdy. The Fire Authority first introduced credit cards in October 1998. Was guidance given to it prior to that?

89.
Mr Gowdy: As I understand it no request was made to the then Department for approval to use the credit card. However, I am not sure that that is a major concern. From my perspective as accounting officer, the important thing is that in the use of any device for seeking reimbursement for a use of public money it should be very clear what money has been spent and how. As long as the credit card has that trail and the bill is examined carefully before the accounts department pays it, I am satisfied that it is an appropriate mechanism. We do not use it in the Department, but it is used fairly extensively in other organisations. The key consideration is the accountability trail.

90.
Mr Carrick: To clarify - even at this stage the Department has not issued any guidance on the use of credit cards to the Fire Authority?

91.
Mr Gowdy: Not specifically on credit cards, but we have examined its subsistence payment policy, and we are satisfied that it provides for careful scrutiny of expenditure.

92.
Mr Carrick: Even following the comments of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on credit cards the Department did not consider it prudent to issue guidance?

93.
Mr Gowdy: There is only one credit card in use in the authority. Secondly, this was one incident where, having examined the detail, we were satisfied that there had been no impropriety and that the issue had been flagged up. There was concern about the delay in resolving the matter, but we did not believe that it indicated any fundamental flaw. The Chief Fire Officer may want to comment.

94.
Mr J McClelland: This is very personal to me. There is only one credit card, and I have it. The problem related to activities in which I was involved. While the Department has not given us any written guidance about the credit card, I spoke to the deputy secretary and he clarified a misunderstanding which I had. Had I thought about the thing sensibly at the time, the incident would not have happened.

95.
The incident related to a weekend seminar in Chester which I attended. As Chief Fire Officer I have a very onerous workload. I am also involved in other issues at national level - developing national policy, benevolent funds and so on which take me away from home quite a bit. On that weekend a number of chief fire officers from the United States together with chief fire officers and other principal officers from the UK were at what is known as the USUK Symposium. It meets every year; alternately in the US and the UK. The officers were there to discuss strategic issues and identify emerging issues that affect the service on both sides of the pond.

96.
Mr Carrick: May I interrupt, Mr McClelland? You said that you are the only officer with use of the credit card. Can you confirm that no other officers use the credit card?

97.
Mr McClelland: There is no other credit card, but the purchasing department at headquarters uses it on a small number of occasions because some of the airlines and organisations that provide external training courses will only accept bookings with a credit card.

98.
Mr Carrick: That explains in some measure why you need a credit card. I was interested to know in what circumstances you consider it necessary to have one. Is it because of the high level of hospitality expenses, or does the normal system for reclaiming expenses not work in the Fire Authority?

99.
Mr J McClelland: There is a system for reclaiming expenses but, at the time, I considered it appropriate and necessary, since I have to deal with visitors and hotel bills et cetera, to have a corporate credit card. The issue of other purchases was not part of the decision at the time. Those have emerged since, and the credit card is occasionally used for those purchases.

100.
Mr Carrick: Mr Gowdy said that the Department does not have a corporate credit card. Do you have one?

101.
Mr Gowdy: No, I do not. The principal finance officer, Mr Hill, is with me and he looked at that issue, because of it was unique. He may want to add to that.

102.
Mr Hill: The Chief Fire Officer and I have discussed the use of the credit card in detail, and the Fire Authority is under no doubt about the procedures for it, which are no different from procedures for any expenditure by the Fire Authority. It is important that all expenditure be documented, checked and confirmed. The quality and audit manager carried out an audit of all expenditure under the credit card recently, and everything is in order. That process will be kept under review.

103.
Mr Carrick: Paragraph 6 of the financial report says that several expenses on the card were not supported by detailed receipts. That is worrying, because we must ensure propriety in the expenditure of public money. There must be accountability. In the absence of detailed receipts, how can you assure the Committee that all expenditure on the card was in accordance with the guidelines?

104.
Mr Hill: The point raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General is that in those circumstances no such assurances could be given, hence the absolute need for clear documentation in all circumstances. That procedure has been audited and found to be in place. As I said previously, there is a need to continue to monitor that to give assurance that a clear and absolute audit trail exists.

105.
Mr Carrick: Paragraph 6 refers to the Fire Authority's hospitality guidelines. We want to see those guidelines, if you can supply the Committee with a copy. It is very important that public servants are aware that they are using taxpayers' money and that transparency and accountability exist. What is the Department of Finance and Personnel's view of the use of credit cards by public-sector bodies and what guidance do you provide?

106.
Mr Delaney: The accounting officer said that there is no blanket restriction on the use of credit cards, but there is very specific guidance in chapter 31 of Government Accounting Northern Ireland (GANI). It says that provided that there is a proper audit trail and control system for the payment mechanism, either through the accounting officer or GANI, credit cards can be used.

107.
It also says that there should be instructions on the use of credit cards and a separation of duties between those who use them and those who process payments. If those mechanisms are in place, there is no objection to using cards. Proper control, documentation and audit are the key requirements of GANI. Unfortunately that was not the case in the Fire Authority.

108.
Mr Carrick: I note that an instance was quoted. Is it accepted as good practice in the public sector to add personal items such as one's wife's expenses to a credit card, repaying them later?

109.
Mr Delaney: The general issue of whether a credit card should be available is dealt with in GANI. On the specific issue raised in the audit report, no personal item element should be charged to it.

110.
Mr Carrick: Does the Chief Fire Officer, Mr McClelland, accept that those at the top of public-sector organisations must set an example of scrupulous care with claiming expenses?

111.
Mr J McClelland: I do.

112.
Mr Carrick: Do you therefore agree that putting your wife's expenses onto your credit card and not repaying them until the Audit Office drew attention to the matter fell short of those high standards?

113.
Mr J McClelland: Perhaps I might explain what happened. When I received the statement for the event, I saw that I had an amount to pay. I wrote on the statement that there was an amount that I had to pay and asked my secretary at the time to check the amount with the hotel. When she contacted the hotel it did not have the information to hand and was to get back to her. I intended that she should get a cheque from me and forward it to accounts. The hotel did not ring back immediately, and the statement went through. It was on file, and when the auditor was going through it, he read my statement and said "What is this about?" I had passed the statement on for the enquiry to be made and had not followed it up. I had totally forgotten it at that stage.

114.
Mr Carrick: In the light of Mr Delaney's comments, it is a practice you might not wish to continue. You are bound to segregate expenses completely.

115.
Mr J McClelland: I totally accept that.

116.
Ms Armitage: I should like to welcome the Fire Authority here today. We all appreciate the work you have carried out over the past 30 years and will continue to do. The Fire Authority obviously has a very large and dedicated workforce of men and, I hope, women.

117.
Paragraph 4.6 says that you contracted to buy a transport module business system in 1997 at the time of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Almost three years later it was still not operating effectively, largely because of deficiencies elsewhere in the system. Exactly when did you receive the transport module, and how much did you pay?

118.
Mr J McClelland: I do not know the date, but the cost was £61,500.

119.
Ms Armitage: From when has it been operating fully generating the information specified in the report?

120.
Mr J McClelland: There are still two software issues to deal with, and we expect that to be done by September, after which, assuming that the data have been entered, the system will be fully operational.

121.
Ms Armitage: And you cannot tell me when you received this. Was it years ago?

122.
Mr J McClelland: The fleet system was installed in the last 18 months.

123.
Ms Armitage: You will use it in September 2001.

124.
Mr J McClelland: Yes.

125.
Mr Gowdy: It is operational for some work. It prints out bits of information and forms. It is not fully operational because a couple of modules have still to be added, which will happen in September.

126.
Ms Armitage: Is it normal to wait for that length of time?

127.
Mr Gowdy: The Chief Fire Officer is in a better position to answer that. A large, complex system like this takes a lot of information that was previously handled manually. It needs to be phased in so it is not surprising that it takes time to build to its full capacity. Those modules need to have software packages developed for them, and that is happening. It is a mixture of adding the hardware together to make the system complete and rolling it out from headquarters to other parts of the organisation as well as developing all the functions that the software will provide.

128.
Ms Armitage: Paragraph 4.10 says that the Fire Authority began a major IT investment, including the business system, which it was estimated would cost over £4 million, without an economic appraisal or the required approval from its parent Department and the Department of Finance and Personnel. Why did the Authority ignore the Department of Finance and Personnel's guidance for investment that it was estimated would cost over 18 times more than the delegated limit of £250,000?

129.
Mr J McClelland: The project to which you refer was not just the IT system but the complete refurbishment of our control suite and replacement of the command and control system. That is central to the ability of the brigade to receive calls, mobilise advances and ensure proper communications to and from the fire ground. That part of the project cost about £2·7 million. The rest was related to developing a business information system for the organisation, including the wide area network to each station and place of work. That is necessary as part of the Government's e-government policy.

130.
While we put our bid through the Fire Authority, discussed the issue, got approval, and passed it through with our bid for funding to the Department, we were not required to provide a business case. Total funding was not made available to us; we only received part funding. The command and control aspect of the project was the most critical, because the system then was at its life's end, and spare parts were like hens' teeth, as they say. We therefore diverted available money to command and control, and the business information system was addressed incrementally.

131.
Mr Gowdy: That was before the Department for which I am the accounting officer took over. We have made it clear that we require business cases and economic appraisals for large expenditure programmes. I want to register that important point.

132.
Ms Armitage: I can hardly believe that something was purchased at a cost of £4 million without anyone doing an economic appraisal or seeking the required approval. Mr Gowdy said that it will not happen in the future, but was it normal procedure then? Everybody produces an economic appraisal nowadays, even if the projects involve only a small amount of money.

133.
Mr J McClelland: I accept that that is required of us. We put the bid forward, and the Department was aware of what we planned to do. Part funding was made available, but there was no requirement for a business case.

134.
Ms Armitage: It was not policy in the past, but it will be policy in the future: is that right? What prompted that decision?

135.
Mr Gowdy: I cannot speak for the previous Department. We took on this responsibility only after devolution. It has always been our policy to require economic appraisals and business cases. We have trigger limits for the size of projects, and a major capital project worth £1 million or more must have a reasoned business case. For smaller projects, £0·25 million is the limit. At certain trigger points, we require projects to come to us for approval.

136.
Mr Hill: There are two points there. All significant expenditure, whether recurrent or capital, should be fully justified by a business case. We need not see the business case unless it deals with a project worth over £1 million. All significant expenditure should be justified by the body in a business case. The limit relates to whether we need to see it and agree it.

137.
Mr Delaney: There have been instances in the past in which organisations have seen the allocation of funding and payment of grant as a substitute for business case approval. That is not the case. It is important that the accounting officer oversees how the internal control system in his Department operates. He must be sure when he signs off the financial statements.

138.
Mr Gowdy: We have a clear accountability trail. We have ad hoc meetings with the authority and, in fact, all the bodies for which we have responsibility. We have regular accountability reviews with them all. I am instituting a six-monthly meeting with the Chief Fire Officer to discuss the sort of issues that we are talking about today. We have a clear line for business case scrutiny of all major elements of expenditure under the direct control of the principal finance officer, Mr Hill. We also have a clearly articulated financial memorandum, which we provide to the Chief Fire Officer and his organisation. I have issued the accounting officer letter to Mr McClelland, which specifies what information is required and what clearance is needed. There is a raft of arrangements that make it clear that we must be satisfied that expenditure of all types is properly incurred.

139.
The Chairperson: It seems to me that things were a bit lax under the old Department of the Environment system.

140.
Mr Gowdy: I cannot answer for that period.

141.
Mr Delaney: Following an earlier PAC inquiry into economic appraisals, we issued a memorandum to all departmental, agency and other accounting officers stressing the importance of having a business case for all expenditure, as described by the accounting officer and the principal finance officer.

142.
Ms Armitage: Could the delays and problems that beset the project have been reduced or avoided if there had been a proper business case and a proper management strategy?

143.
Mr J McClelland: The short answer is yes. We wanted to proceed with the entire project under a single contract and scheme, but that did not happen. If we had been required to put forward a business case, the issue of funding would have been addressed and would not now be an issue. The command and control system was operationally necessary and had to be used at the time because the existing system had come to the end of its life. I understand that that is not the issue that the Committee wants to address.

144.
Ms Armitage: It was a hasty decision.

145.
Mr J McClelland: No, it was not a hasty decision; it was timely. The command and control system had come to the end of its life.

146.
Ms Armitage: I am not entirely happy with that, but I will have to accept it. I take it that the situation will not arise again.

147.
Mr J McClelland: You heard what the secretary said about the business case. That is how we will deal with matters in the future.

148.
The Chairperson: I would interpret that as saying that it would not happen again.

149.
Ms Armitage: I hope that your interpretation is right.

150.
Mr Hill: The Fire Authority is already doing business cases. The introduction of digital trunk radio is already the subject of a detailed business case being considered by the Department. The new system is in place.

151.
Ms Morrice: I want to focus on the issue of absenteeism. The Fire Authority for Northern Ireland has the worst sickness record for full-time firefighters of all the brigades in the United Kingdom. The local government auditor has estimated that during 1999-2000 absenteeism for uniformed and non-uniformed staff cost £2·8 million. That is a phenomenally high amount - over £1 million more expensive than the average sickness costs for fire brigades in Great Britain. That figure equates to the loss of 32 personnel each year. Is that loss acceptable in such a vital service?

152.
Mr Gowdy: I cannot think of any organisation that does not have sick absences. People fall sick and are injured. Such things happen. To reduce the probability of that happening, we must deal with stress and make sure that people are properly trained and fit to do their job. It is also important to deal with what might be perceived as unwarranted sick absence. It should be made clear that there are rules and that, if people take large amounts of sick leave that is not justified by medical evidence, action will be taken. To that extent, I take the point.

153.
We should bear in mind that the Fire Brigade is a unique organisation with characteristics that make sick leave more difficult to deal with. Firefighting is a high-risk occupation. Officers deal with major incidents, in which the risk of physical injury is always present. The organisation takes every possible health and safety step to protect its officers, giving them the right equipment, training and so on, but things can go wrong if an incident happens in a difficult place. Injury is always possible.

154.
Firefighting is also a stressful occupation. There is great personal risk, and there is a great deal of trauma involved in dealing with burnt bodies and badly injured victims of road accidents. That is not pleasant, and the stress can lead to sickness absence. I would not say that the level of sick absence is justifiable, but I would expect a rather higher level than average, because of the job's characteristics.

155.
Ms Morrice: The local government auditor spoke about that as long ago as 1994, but it would seem that no policies are being implemented to take account of that factor. You say that injuries can happen and they can cause firefighters to take time off: are injuries not more likely to happen when the number of firefighters who attend an incident is reduced? It is a catch-22 situation.

156.
Mr Gowdy: Making sure that crew levels are right is an issue. However, the figures show that about 37% of current sickness absences are due to muscular and skeletal injuries, such as back injuries - physical injuries. The second highest category, which accounts for about 27% of sick absence, is psychological stress. Those two key factors relate closely to the characteristics of the job. We must now consider what action can be taken to reduce those levels of absence. The Department has taken an interest in that question.

157.
We are satisfied that the authority takes the matter seriously. The Chief Fire Officer issued a circular to all personnel in December 2000 that pointed out that there was a need to drive down the level of sick leave. An attendance policy statement was issued to the organisation, and it has several key elements that are worth mentioning because they show a willingness to tackle the problem. There are trigger mechanisms that will initiate action by the authority at various points in a person's sick leave. There will be return-to-work interviews; line managers are accountable for the sick leave in their areas and have been trained in handling sick absence issues; and senior managers have timescales for action if there is a build up of sick leave. The authority is taking measures to improve fitness levels by putting gyms and physical activity equipment in stations, and there have been stress audits.

158.
Ms Morrice: When did the implementation of those measures start? Have you seen any results?

159.
Mr Gowdy: I do not want it to sound as though we are absolving ourselves, but the Department's interest started when it took over responsibility for the Fire Service following devolution at the end of 1999. There has been a great deal of activity during 2000 and this year. The Chief Fire Officer released his circular in December 2000, but the Fire Authority had already been taking the matter seriously. The issue is on the agenda for every senior management meeting and is dealt with at board level by a human resources committee.

160.
Ms Morrice: The Committee is interested in the statistics for Fire Service absenteeism over the past five years. Can Mr McClelland give us the figure for the average number of days lost each year by grade, for uniform and non-uniform staff? What impact has action to correct the level of absenteeism had so far?

161.
Mr J McClelland: Do you require those statistics now?

162.
Ms Morrice: It would be helpful. If they are not available now, we should get them in writing.

163.
Mr J McClelland: I do not have all the figures for the past five years. In 1997-98, the average number of shifts lost among the whole-time staff who crew the fire appliances was 13·7; the figure is now 12·8. The local government auditor's target is 10. The figure for flexible-duty officers was 6·8 days in 1999-2000 and 16·6 days in 2000-01. For uniformed staff on day duty, the figure was 8·9 in 1999-2000 and 11·3 in 2000-01. There is a major problem with control room staff; in 1999-2000 the figure was 16 and in 2000-01 it was 39·6. The local government auditor's target for control room staff is 10. There are stress-related issues involved. The figure for administrative, professional, technical and clerical (APT&C) staff and store staff was 18·5 in 1999-2000 and 17·6 in 2000-01. The figure for transport and communications staff was 25·7 in 1999-2000 and 39·2 in 2000-01.

164.
Unfortunately, the bald figures do not explain everything. For example, in transport and communications, a small number of people - no more than 27, including three in the transport department - were on sick leave for long periods. One mechanic was suffering from cancer, which unfortunately proved to be terminal, and two other mechanics, who were also part-time firefighters, were off work for almost a year with operational injuries, and were eventually retired because of those injuries.

165.
Ms Morrice: There are understandable reasons why people might be off sick. Can you give us a breakdown of the figures for those who fight fires and those who work in the office, which I imagine is less stressful? Is there a higher level of absenteeism among firefighters than among non-uniform staff?

166.
Mr J McClelland: There is a slightly higher level among firefighters. In 2000-01, the average number of shifts lost was 12·8 for operational firefighters and 11·3 for day-duty personnel.

167.
Ms Morrice: I understand that there is a high level of absenteeism among storemen.

168.
Mr J McClelland: There are between 121 and 133 personnel in APT&C and the stores, depending on the year.

169.
Mr D McClelland: Is the level of absenteeism among the storemen higher than among those who man the appliances?

170.
Mr J McClelland: Absenteeism for storemen is calculated in days, and for firefighters it is calculated in shifts lost. A shift is a tour of duty, which may be day or night and lasts for either nine hours or fifteen hours. It is calculated differently for stores and other technical grades.

171.
Ms Morrice: It is the worst record in GB. Low crew levels could put lives at risk. What are you doing to change that?

172.
Mr J McClelland: That is right. The issue is not the amount of money that can be clawed back and reused for other activities. The money is allocated for the staffing budget, and the difficulty is that it takes personnel away from front-line service delivery.

173.
Ms Morrice: What are you doing about it?

174.
Mr J McClelland: There are several initiatives, including a task force that I set up to carry out a root and branch review of what is happening in the stations, to give guidance and training to ensure that the proper procedures are followed and to ensure that return-to-work interviews are carried out. That is a mammoth task and involves cultural change. We started some months ago, and we are beginning to see a glimmer of change in short-term sickness figures. We believe that the long-term sickness problem will resolve itself.

175.
We will deal robustly with the issue. We believe that we will reach the targets set by the local government auditor, but we are not confident that we will reach them within the timescale. The Committee can be assured that we will use every effort to bring the figures down. It is a dangerous job, and it is different to other jobs, but absenteeism is unacceptably high. Even taking account of the situation in Northern Ireland, we are top of the league, and that is bad.

176.
Ms Morrice: That is a valuable commitment. We will monitor progress toward those targets.

177.
I understand that there is a drive to employ female firefighters. How many female firefighters are there, and what are you doing to recruit more? How have you changed your recruitment practices to accommodate female firefighters, and how many have applied?

178.
Mr J McClelland: We have about 1,800 operational personnel in the Fire Brigade. At the last count, we had eight female firefighters.

179.
Ms Morrice: I assume that those eight women were recruited recently.

180.
Mr J McClelland: The first female firefighter was recruited eight or nine years ago. She was a unique entity for a long time, and it is only in the past three years that more females have come forward. We have engaged in outreach programmes to attract female firefighters. Last year, we ran two events at Westland Fire Station in Belfast, and about 600 females came along to see what the Fire Brigade was about, get the feel of the equipment and some insight into the test.

181.
Ms Morrice: Did those 600 apply?

182.
Mr J McClelland: No, about 30 applied.

183.
Ms Morrice: What is stopping the recruitment of the women who apply? Are your recruitment practices aimed at helping women join the force?

184.
Mr J McClelland: Traditionally, the Fire Service has been a male occupation, and that is how it has been seen. Women have not been attracted to the Fire Service as an occupation.

185.
Ms Morrice: I know many women who are interested in joining, but they are not getting in.

186.
Mr J McClelland: In the past, men would not have seen the Fire Service as an occupation for women either. That is changing - it must change.

187.
Ms Morrice: Height restrictions have ruled out many women.

188.
Mr J McClelland: Height restrictions were instituted for the Fire Service by statute. We had to change the law to remove them. It was unfortunate that the test case against height restriction was taken in Northern Ireland; I wish that they would take their test cases somewhere else.

189.
Ms Morrice: At least, it was brought down.

190.
Mr J McClelland: Following the removal of the height restrictions, the entrance tests for the Fire Service were changed to the new tests that I described. Those tests are used across the UK. The issue does not relate solely to female firefighters; it relates to other minority and ethnic groups. Brigades, particularly in England, have problems with that.

191.
Unfortunately, one of the reasons why female applicants fail to reach the standard is upper body strength, which is an important requirement for the type of physical work that is done by the Fire Brigade. However, a small number of women are coming through, and we are encouraging and welcoming females into the Fire Service. We believe that women can do the job and do it well.

192.
Ms Morrice: That is valuable. I would like to see some sort of target for the recruitment of women, ethnic minorities and so on. Have you got targets and time limits?

193.
Mr J McClelland: We do not have targets. We treat all applicants equally - we do not differentiate.

194.
Ms Morrice: Perhaps there is something to be said for doing something to change that. With only eight women among 1,800 firefighters, you are not succeeding in your attempts to bring more women in.

195.
Mr J McClelland: We are not alone in that. That problem faces all Fire Services, not only those in the UK.

196.
Ms Morrice: It would be nice if we could pioneer a new approach.

197.
Mr J McClelland: This week, we are having a summer school with people from America. This is one of the issues that have been discussed. It is a problem for them, too.

198.
Ms Morrice: I have made my point.

199.
The Chairperson: Mr J McClelland said that it was difficult for men to get in as well.

200.
Ms Armitage: We will have to change the women to get them into the Fire Brigade.

201.
Ms Morrice: Have you considered combining the resources of the Ambulance Service and the Fire Service to provide a better service?

202.
Mr Gowdy: There are several important issues that should be considered. The communication system is very important. Although the Fire and Ambulance Services turn up to many incidents together, they have different roles. The ambulance picks up people and takes them to hospital -the Fire Brigade is not involved. We should ensure that any combination was to the benefit of both organisations and did not cut across the activities of either.

203.
As the Chief Fire Officer said, we are considering combining the Ambulance Service and the Fire Brigade at Bangor Fire Station. That may be a pilot for other schemes. There are other opportunities, including the geographical information system and digital trunk radio systems. The possibilities are under active consideration.

204.
Mr Dallat: As a recently elected mayor with no car, and no desire to have one, I am greatly intrigued by the two V6 executive saloons that the Chief Fire Officer and his deputy have. You justified those by saying that they were needed for official functions and for dignitaries. I am sure that we will want to expand on that in our report.

205.
Mr J McClelland: I made it clear that those were in addition to my normal duties. My normal duties require me - not that frequently, but occasionally - to go to operational incidents and, where necessary, take command. I must attend meetings and go to other places to carry out my duties. I drive myself; there is no chauffeur.

206.
Mr Dallat: I live in a small rural town, where morale among part-time firefighters is quite low. We need to find ways to motivate them and encourage more people to join. It does not set the right example if the Chief Fire Officer and his deputy are cruising around in luxury cars.

207.
Mr J McClelland: It is unfair to say that we are cruising around. My principal officers and I, who are on the flexi-duty system, work hard. We work long hours and on our days off, and we do not abuse the facility. What town are you from?

208.
Mr Dallat: It would not be fair to firefighters in my town to answer that.

209.
Mr J McClelland: Is it Coleraine by any chance? I was there the other night.

210.
Mr Dallat: No. I will not blow my trumpet, but I left this Building after 11 o'clock last night and was back here at 9 o'clock this morning. It is all part of the job, and I do not have a luxury limousine.

211.
Mr J McClelland: I was in Coleraine and Larne last week, visiting stations late into the evening, carrying out an inspection and chatting face-to-face with the personnel about the issues that were important to them. I had to travel to Coleraine and get back home again. I must maintain my operational availability. As I said, I drive myself. I do not believe that the vehicles that other officers and I drive are excessively luxurious. There were various vehicles that I could have chosen; I chose the least expensive. Some members of the Fire Authority wanted a luxury official limousine. I did not consider that to be appropriate.

212.
Mr Dallat: Possibly, I am shooting the messenger; perhaps, the representatives of the Fire Authority should be here. I am from Kilrea, and I am extremely proud of the firemen there. However, I am also conscious that the station is understaffed and needs new recruits.

213.
I am Chairperson of the Audit Committee. That Committee has to justify the cost of the Audit Office, and it is extremely proud of the work that the Audit Office does. The Committee expects the reports to be taken seriously and to be implemented in full, so that the savings can be justified to the public and improvements made. How long did it take to agree the report? Does the Fire Authority intend to implement it fully? I have written down some of the words that you have used: "under review", "considering", "thinking about", "adequate", "justified" and "not required". Only in the past five minutes did I hear a positive statement that every effort would be made to bring about change. Are you serious about the report? Will we come back in a year's time and find that everything is right?

214.
Mr Gowdy: We have taken the report and the management letters from the local government auditor seriously. We have seen a number of things happen. The Fire Authority has a clear policy on absenteeism and a set of practices in place that will, we hope, produce some resolution. The concern about the bonus scheme has been addressed. There is a mediated agreement between the authority and the unions on that scheme, which the Department is considering. The policies on vehicle logbook audit and subsistence are in place. A review of policy on cars by the Helm Corporation was completed in May, and its findings have to be evaluated. Therefore, we can show that many of the issues that were raised have been addressed, and changes have been made.

215.
Mr Dallat: Mr McClelland made a good case for rural fire stations, such as Kilrea, to have new modern appliances. Later, he said that fire engines could last for up to 14 years if they remained in the same station. It seems that there is a transition from modern fire appliance to museum piece. The argument in the report that fire engines should be rotated is a good one. Rather than making the case that rural fire stations might have a modern fire engine for a short time, we should acknowledge that they inevitably end up with something that is ready for the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum.

216.
Mr J McClelland: Technology in fire engine design does not change that rapidly. A vehicle that was put on the road 14 years ago still has the same pumping capacity and high and low pressure systems as those that are manufactured today. The changes in fire appliance design are incremental, and the evolution from one stage to another does not take place rapidly.

217.
Mr Dallat: Astonishingly, paragraph 2.2 of the report shows that the Fire Authority did not have formal procurement procedures in place to put Treasury and Department of Finance and Personnel guidance into practice. In the absence of proper procedures, how did you, as accounting officer, satisfy yourself that your staff were complying with Department of Finance and Personnel regulations? The report is a year old; are documented purchasing procedures now in place?

218.
Mr J McClelland: At the time, we did not have a sole document that we could identify as our procurement policy. We used a series of documents, which we continue to use and which are soon to be incorporated into a new policy. The new policy will not be significantly different from the practices that we adopted in the past, which were regarded as good practices and met all the requirements. We will ensure that our procurement procedures are transparent. We agree that that is an important issue.

219.
Mr Dallat: Now that we have an Assembly, small and medium-sized businesses in Northern Ireland expect at least to be able to participate in tendering for public contracts. The fact that such businesses could not do that is an indictment of the procedures followed by the Fire Authority for Northern Ireland.

220.
Mr Gowdy: The Fire Authority has recognised that we need transparent procedures for tendering and awarding contracts. We are keen to see a clear, single procurement policy put in place. The advice from the Treasury and the Department of Finance and Personnel is being combined in a document that is due to be completed in July. The document was delayed slightly because the Audit Commission in England was producing a good practice guide on fire service procurement, and we needed to take account of that.

221.
We have also spoken to the Fire Authority about opportunities for small businesses. The Chief Fire Officer is keen to see an open and transparent tendering process for things such as fuel purchase at local stations. Those contracts will be put up for tender again next year and that exercise will be done in a transparent way.

222.
Mr Dallat: I welcome that, but I am a bit disappointed. One of the first Government agencies to address Assembly Members when the Executive came into being was the Government Purchasing Agency. The agency outlined how beneficial their procedures could be, and I am disappointed to find that the advice is only now being acted on. I realise that I am shooting the messenger; you are not responsible for the situation.

223.
Mr Gowdy: The Fire Authority does use the Government Purchasing Agency's procedures. For example, we mentioned the review by the Helm Corporation Ltd; they were engaged according to the procedures and tender list that the Government Purchasing Agency drew up. The principles are being followed, but we are making sure that they will be set out in a clear policy statement that will be produced in July.

224.
Mr Dallat: Paragraph 2.3 of the report refers to the purchase of an appliance at a cost of £110,000 in August 1998. It was not put into operation for 17 months because of development problems. Why did it take 17 months to make the vehicle fit for its intended purpose? Why was it paid for in advance?

225.
Mr J McClelland: Was it a rescue tender?

226.
Mr Dallat: Yes.

227.
Mr J McClelland: It was a new type of rescue vehicle, which carried a range of new equipment. When it was sent, for familiarisation purposes, to the station to which it had been allocated, the prospective users took a different view of the best ergonomic position for the equipment. Their points were taken on board, and the vehicle was returned for modification, so that, ergonomically, it was suitable for the use to which it would be put. The appliance was built to specification, so there was no fault on the part of the builder.

228.
The problem seems to have arisen because the appliance did not go "on the run" - in other words, it was not available for operational use - for an extended period. However, leaving aside the modification time, a significant amount of time was taken up with training personnel to use the vehicle and the new equipment.

229.
This vehicle went on the run at Crescent Link in Londonderry. That is a whole-time station with four shifts, or watches, of people, all of whom had to be trained. The appliance is crewed by two personnel. When it goes to an incident, it does not go in isolation, but with other appliances. Personnel at Crescent Link had to be trained in the use of the appliance and equipment, as did personnel at Northland Fire Station and the surrounding stations in Dungiven, Limavady, Strabane and further afield. There are major health and safety considerations to be taken into account when any new firefighting or rescue equipment goes on the run, and training takes time.

230.
Mr Dallat: I am astonished. The Fire Authority paid for the research and development. Was ergonomics not part of that? It took 17 months to get it right.

231.
Mr J McClelland: I will not disagree.

232.
Mr Dallat: Paragraph 2.3 also says that you paid for an appliance costing nearly £95,000 in March 1998, but did not receive it until September 1998, and that it was not put into use until the following January. Why does the Fire Authority hand out large sums of money to suppliers before it receives the goods and can make sure that they are fit for the required purpose?

233.
Mr J McClelland: I am trying to identify the vehicle in question.

234.
Mr Dallat: You are bound to remember that one.

235.
Mr J McClelland: Could you repeat the details? I am a little confused.

236.
The Chairperson: It is referred to at the top of page 25, in paragraph 2.3

237.
Mr J McClelland: There is some confusion here. That is the vehicle that I have just described. Could we go back to the original one? It was a new design of vehicle that we were researching.

238.
The Chairperson: Are we talking about the vehicle mentioned second bullet point on page 24?

239.
Mr J McClelland: Yes. That was a prototype vehicle that we were designing. It used an American pumping system, which, rather than use water for all firefighting, used a new type of foam. In general, foam is used for fighting fires involving oil or flammable liquid; the new foam can also be used to fight other fires. We purchased two of those vehicles and experienced some training and operator difficulties, as well as technical problems with the one stationed at Newry. We stationed one appliance at Newry because of the Bessbrook heliport, and one at Enniskillen because of the proximity of St Angelo Airport. The new types of appliances used a CAF (compressed air and foam) system, and we had some difficulties training our personnel to operate them.

240.
A new ladder-gantry system was installed on the appliances to take account of the needs of smaller operators recruited following the removal of height restrictions. The gantry slides down so that operators need not reach up to take the ladders off. There were operational and training difficulties with that too.

241.
Mr Dallat: During all that research and development, other things were not going too well, not least the "down time" spent by the vehicle in the workshops. That is hardly surprising, given the overgenerous job budgets, lucrative bonus scheme and high levels of absenteeism and vehicle faults, all of which are mentioned in figure 7 on page 41. What have you done to reduce "down time" and speed up repairs in the workshop? Have you considered farming the work out to other agencies that might do it better and more cheaply?

242.
Mr J McClelland: You are right to refer to the lack of productivity and efficiency in the workshop; it is a major cause for concern. We fully accept the criticisms and are taking action to rectify those problems. The long-standing issue of bonus payments to mechanics was part of the problem. The bonus scheme has been in place for over 20 years and is long past its sell-by date. It has been a bone of contention for a long time and has been a matter of dispute between management and the mechanics' union. The issue was not resolved until recently.

243.
The issue was not the quantum of bonuses or the mechanics' earnings, for they do not exceed what would be considered as the commercial rate. The hourly charge- out rate for mechanics is similar to and competitive with the commercial sector. What is not competitive is the time that it takes them to do the job. Their productivity and efficiency ratings are very low.

244.
Mr D McClelland: Going by the amount of sick leave that they were taking, the storemen were dropping with exhaustion. Figure 6 on page 35 shows that it cost £126·78 to replace three defective bulbs - that is incredible.

245.
Mr J McClelland: I accept that criticism.

246.
Mr D McClelland: That is inefficiency of the worse type. The storemen, who are, apparently, under a great deal of pressure, are dropping out with high rates of sick leave. Meanwhile, it costs £126 for mechanics to change three light bulbs.

247.
Mr J McClelland: I accept the criticism about the lack of efficiency in the transport workshops.

248.
Mr Gowdy: A viability study of the workshops is taking place. We are also concerned about the figures. The study will examine productivity, expense and options for delivering the service. We have noted that issue carefully, and it is being addressed.

249.
Mr Dallat: I notice that it cost £1,014 to replace the front brakes on a vehicle in Derry. There are many car owners who would find that hard to understand. Charging a battery cost £126.78. That must be changed.

250.
Paragraphs 3.6 to 3.9 describe the workshop bonus scheme, which even allows for the payment of bonuses to staff who are off sick. I thought that sort of thing ended 20 years ago. The financial report reveals that matters got worse, with bonus payments rising by 60% in that year, despite the overwhelming evidence that the scheme was a recipe for inefficiency and waste.

251.
Consultants were appointed in May 1998 to produce a revised scheme, but the scheme was not implemented. It would appear that many things were not implemented. That is why I asked for a copper-bottomed guarantee that this report would be implemented. There is a history of not implementing things.

252.
You told us that the bonus scheme had been replaced.

253.
Mr J McClelland: We have come to an agreement with the unions on the way ahead. The bonus scheme will be consolidated into employees' pay. However, the transport workshop must prove that it can be viable. We have commissioned a consultant to look at the transport workshop and report on its viability. We are taking a strong line on that. If the transport workshops can be made viable, it will be made viable. If not, we must look at other forms of provision. We are committed to that. I want to clear up any misunderstanding about our attitude to the report; we are committed to taking its recommendations on board and implementing them.

254.
Mr Dallat: That is useful.

255.
Mr Gowdy: An agreement has been reached, mediated by the Labour Relations Agency, that must be approved by the Department. We received it last week and are considering it. It is not yet cleared for implementation.

256.
Mr Dallat: I am sure that Mr Gowdy will be concerned to hear that those bonus payments might be consolidated. The Committee's scrutiny of other public bodies has shown that consolidation is a back door way of removing obvious bonuses from the top line and burying them elsewhere. I agree with Mr Gowdy's last comments.

257.
Given the catalogue of shortcomings on so many fronts in the transport department, it would be better to contract out the entire maintenance function, as other fire brigades have done, to someone who can provide a better service at a lower cost. The difficult circumstances in which the Northern Ireland Fire Brigade has operated over the past 30 years do not explain why it is at the bottom of the pile.

258.
Mr Gowdy: The mechanics' pay scheme had a basic pay element and a bonus designed to be an incentive. The latter element has clearly not worked. The unions had concerns about it because of difficulties with classifying work. Both parties agree that it must be replaced. We must be satisfied that we can stand by all the elements in any replacement scheme.

259.
The proposed arrangements would raise pay by consolidating the bonus, which would mean basic pay would be on a par with what is paid by other organisations for the same sort of work. We are therefore not concerned that it will raise pay rates above what they ought to be. We wish to be satisfied that the change is defensible and transparent.

260.
Mr D McClelland: Appendix 1 on page 51 shows the figures for 1997-98. The charge-out rate in Lisburn is £23·02, but in Londonderry it is £63·39, almost three times as much. Why is that? What are the most up-to-date figures for the last financial year?

261.
Mr J McClelland: I do not have the figures to hand. However, the Londonderry workshop has two units of staff, and the total cost of overheads is included. We recently increased the number of staff in Londonderry to four, as part of a plan from a year or two ago. We could not move in that direction owing to transfer barriers with existing staff. Now, because of staff leaving, we have been able to locate new personnel at Londonderry, rather than Lisburn.

262.
Mr D McClelland: Are those not worrying figures? The cost was approximately three times as high.

263.
Mr J McClelland: The average charge-out rate was competitive, but the rate in Londonderry was not.

264.
Mr D McClelland: Will you provide details of the charge-out rates for the last financial year?

265.
Mr J McClelland: The information will be forthcoming.

266.
Ms Armitage: According to Financial Report 2, you acquired 68 PCs and printers in December 1999. You had installed only six of them by February 2001. How much did you pay for the 68 PCs and printers, and when did you do so? The financial report lists them under IT equipment held in storage since mid-1999.

267.
Mr J McClelland: We ordered the 68 PCs and printers for installation in December 1998. I do not know when the payment was made. The roll-out of the printers was delayed by problems with the development of the system software. Rather than distribute them to stations at the time, a decision was made to hold them in storage until we were ready. The roll-out programme is now complete, and the PCs are in the stations.

268.
Ms Armitage: How long did you hold them in storage?

269.
Mr J McClelland: January 1999 was the delivery date.

270.
Ms Armitage: So, it was over two years.

271.
Mr J McClelland: That is right.

272.
Ms Armitage: Paragraph 18 in that report states quite clearly that the value of IT equipment depreciates over three years. Almost two years of the useful life of that equipment had passed before you had even installed or used them.

273.
Mr J McClelland: That interpretation can be put on it, but we are content that the PCs still have a full life expectancy. When we start to use them fully, they will not have any less life expectancy than they had two years ago.

274.
Ms Armitage: Presumably, you paid for them two years before you were going to use them. Money was tied up in computers that were sitting in a store.

275.
Mr J McClelland: Yes. We accept that it was purchased in advance of utilisation.

276.
Ms Armitage: How do you arrive at a situation like that - is it bad planning?

277.
Mr J McClelland: MIS was just one major project that was taking place along with a wide range of other major projects in the organisation. I would not like the Committee to get the impression - although I can understand why they might - that things do not get finished. There are many initiatives going on in the fire brigade in order to modernise it, and bring about change in the organisation. Unfortunately, rather than completing the roll-out programme for the IT project and putting all the equipment in place by the milestone time, we were delayed by software development problems.

278.
Ms Armitage: I appreciate that change costs money. Finally, can you reconcile this type of purchasing practice with your responsibility to achieve value for money? Public resources are scarce.

279.
Mr J McClelland: I agree that purchases should be timely, and there should not be long lead-in times between the purchase and the utilisation of resources.

280.
The Chairperson: Gentlemen, I am sure you are pleased to hear that the session is finished. Thank you for answering the questions. It has taken nearly two and a half hours, and Mr McClelland was put under particular pressure by the questions, which he dealt with very well.

281.
You indicated that you would let us have some paperwork and reports on various issues that were raised. I will not go into them, but please liaise with the Committee clerk so that we can have the paperwork for our report.

282.
Without doubt the fire service in Northern Ireland has substantial public support. It does a considerable job, especially given that they have had to do this job over 30 years in very difficult circumstances. We appreciate that and the fact that you came here and gave us honest answers to our questions. You will understand that any public utility or service has to be accountable to the public. That is what we are here for, and why we must ask these probing questions. Once again, thank you for coming here, and for answering the questions to the best of your ability.