PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE

Minutes of Proceedings of the first meeting
of the Public Accounts Committee
held in Room 152, Parliament Buildings
on Wednesday 5^th September 2001

1. Introduction
2. Apologies
3. Minutes from Meeting of 19 June 2001
4. Draft Report on School Inspection in Northern Ireland & Pay Flexibilities for School Principals and Vice-Principals
5. Draft Report on Fire Authority for Northern Ireland
6. DFP Memorandum of Reply to the Fifth Report of PAC
7. Committee Correspondence
8. Any Other Business

Present:
Mr B Bell (Chairman)
Mr Beggs
Mr Carrick
Mr Close
Mr Dallat
Mr McClelland

Apologies:
Ms Ramsey
Ms Armitage
Mr Hilditch
Ms Morrice
Mr O'Connor

In Attendance:
Mr M Rickard (Committee Clerk)
Mr J Campbell (Assistant Committee Clerk)
Ms J Adair

The Chairman commenced proceedings by welcoming Mr. Dowdall, the Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) and his staff to the meeting. He then proceeded to outline the objectives of the meeting as:

1. To agree the draft minutes of the meetings of 19.06.01;
2. To agree the draft PAC Report on School Inspection in Northern Ireland & Pay Flexibilities for School Principals and Vice-Principals
3. To agree the draft PAC Report on the Fire Authority for Northern Ireland - Fleet Management and Issues arising from the 1998-99 and 1999-2000 Accounts
4. To agree the action to be taken following receipt of various responses to Committee correspondence

Following this introduction, the Chairman turned to the order of business.

2. Apologies

Apologies were received from Ms S Ramsey, Ms P Armitage, Mr D Hilditch, Ms J Morrice and Mr D O'Connor

3. Minutes from Meeting of 19 June 2001

The minutes were an accurate record of the previous meeting.

4. Draft Report on School Inspection in Northern Ireland & Pay Flexibilities for School Principals and Vice-Principals

Following the issue of the draft report to all members, the Committee discussed its content

Mr John Dowdall, Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) was further examined

Draft Report (School Inspection in Northern Ireland & Pay Flexibilities for School Principals and Vice-Principals) proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.

Ordered, That the draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.

Introduction read and agreed to

Section I
Paras 1 to 3 read and agreed to
Paras 4.1 to 4.11 postponed
Paras 5 to 22 read and agreed to
Para 4.1 to 4.11 read and agreed to

Section II
Paras 1 to 3 read and agreed to.
Paras 4.1 to 4.7 postponed
Paras 5 to 6 read and agreed to
Para 7 read and agreed subject to amendments
Paras 8 to 14 read and agreed to
Paras 4.1 to 4.7 read and agreed subject to changes to be made to reflect amendments agreed in para 7

Following approval of the draft report, the draft press releases were agreed.

5. Draft Report on Fire Authority for Northern Ireland - Fleet Management and Issues arising from the 1998-99 and 1999-2000 Accounts

Mr John Dowdall, Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) was further examined

Draft Report (Fire Authority for Northern Ireland: Fleet Management and Reports on the 1998-99 and 1999-2000 Accounts) proposed by the Chairman, brought up and read.

Ordered, That the draft Report be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph.

Paras 1 to 3 read and agreed to
Paras 4.1 to 5.3 postponed
Paras 6 to 37 read and agreed to
Paras 4.1 to 5.3 read and agreed to

Agreed

The members would receive the draft press release for the Committee's Report on the Fire Authority for Northern Ireland - Fleet Management and Issues arising from the 1998-99 and 1999-2000 Accounts - and approve it individually prior to the next meeting.

6. DFP Memorandum of Reply to the Fifth Report of PAC (Health and Personal Social Services - Executive Directors' and Senior Managers' Pay, Contracts and Termination Settlements)

The Chairman drew to the attention of members the DFP Memorandum of Reply to the Fifth Report of PAC (Health and Personal Social Services - Executive Directors' and Senior Managers' Pay, Contracts and Termination Settlements)

In the reply there were two issues which had caused him concern. In the Committee Report, at Conclusion 12, it stated that it was "unacceptable to have assumed that a Minister's request about limiting pay increases, not backed up the legislative authority, would bring about the requisite result". However, in the response, the Department had chosen to "reject" this conclusion.

Agreed

The Committee considered it totally unacceptable that this or indeed any Department should reject what is its own opinion.

A further reply which caused concern related to PAC Conclusion 13. In this conclusion, the Committee had stated that "It is clear to us that public displeasure at the level of pay awards was the major influence on action by the Department". However, in the response the Department stated that "The Department does not accept the Committee's view that public displeasure was the major influence on the Department's actions". It pointed to its restriction on pay being notified to the HPSS in April 1998, six months before the newspaper feature in October 1998. Evidence available to the Committee suggested this not to be the case.

Agreed

In light of these responses, the Treasury Officer of Accounts will be summoned to the next on meeting of the Committee on Wednesday 19^th September in order to discuss the Memorandum of Reply.

Agreed

The matter will be raised with the Accounting Officer when he appears before the Committee in 24^th November.

7. Committee Correspondence

It was reported to the Committee that prior to and during the summer recess the Committee Office had received numerous responses from departments concerning NIAO reports where solely written evidence had been sought. These reports were:

• Corporate Governance and Financial Management in Colleges of Further Education (NIA 5 Session 1999-2000) and University of Ulster Senior Officers' Expenses (HC 288 Session 1999-2000)
• Energy Efficiency in the Education Sector (HC 288 Session 1999-2000)
• Performance Measurement and Reporting in the Rate Collection Agency (NIA 20 Session 1999-2000)
• Bridge Assessment and Strengthening Programme (HC 396, 1999-2000)
• Loughry Food Business Incubation Centre (NIA24/00)

Each response was reviewed and considered to be satisfactory.

Letters of reply should be issued to each Accounting Officer informing them of the Committee's conclusions.

8. Financial Reporting Advisory Board

Following the introduction of Government Resources Accounts Act (NI), DFP have been discussing the establishment of the Board. The Chairman reported that DFP has approached the Committee seeking their opinion on the membership of the Financial Reporting Advisory Board.

The Committee is content that a DFP official should be the Northern Ireland representative on FRAB and that this representative should give account to the NIAO, Committee for Finance and Personnel and the Public Accounts Committee.

The next meeting is at 10.30am on Wednesday 19^th September in Room 152 where we will be given an update on the Irish Sport Horse Genetic Testing Unit Ltd and a briefing on the forthcoming NIAO Report on Brucellosis.

The meeting was then drawn to a close at 11:40am