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Education and Training for Industry SESSION
2001/2002 FIRST REPORT Ordered by The Committee for Employment and
Learning to be printed 20 September 2001 Report:
01/01 R (Committee for Employment and Learning) COMMITTEE
FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING VOLUME
3 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE RELATING TO THE REPORT
TABLE OF CONTENTS VOLUME 3 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Construction Industry Training Board Northern Ireland Textiles and Clothing Training Council Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation and Transfer System Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations
and Assessment Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts plc Qualifications and Curriculum Authority Galen Holdings Ltd
Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment
- Hastings Hotels Group
Northern Ireland Economic Council Craigavon Borough Council
North American Coal Company Organisation Moy Park Ltd Letterkenny Institute of Technology Women's Training Enterprise and Childcare Newry & Mourne District Council Forfás Education & Training Inspectorate Queen's University of Belfast Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership Department
of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment -
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 8 February 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr Hay Mr Hutchinson Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Mr A McMullen
) Mr W Gillespie ) Construction Industry
Training Board Mrs L Wallis
) 1582. The Chairperson: Thank you for attending
and for providing the written submission on the workings of the training system.
I am aware of the strategic importance of the construction sector. It is one
of the largest sectors in the Northern Ireland economy and for some years it
has been one of the most rapidly growing. The Committee is keen to hear your
views on the skills' situation, the demand for labour and any shortages of labour.
It will be interesting to hear your views on what the Assembly and the Higher
and Further Education, Training and Employment Committee can do to
deal with that situation. 1583. Mr Gillespie: I will explain the Construction
Industry Training Board's (CITB) position in relation to education and training
and then my colleagues and I will endeavour to answer your questions. 1584. CITB
board members are accountable to the Minister who appointed them and to the
construction employers within the scope of CITB who provide the money to fund
its activities. 1585. CITB
is a statutory body tasked with ensuring adequate training for those working
in, or intending to work
in, the industry, which employs about 43,000 people. We, as a board, have a budget
of about £3 million, 80% of which is raised by a statutory levy
on employers. The
balance is raised largely from the sale of our services to people who
are not in the scope of the CITB. As a sector representative body the CITB is
the recognised source for advising on and facilitating the training needs of
the industry. 1586. Over
the years we have established strong links and excellent working relationships with the Training
and Employment
Agency (T&EA), which is our sponsoring Government Department, and
also with the various national training construction organisations on matters
of mutual interest. In addition, we are now members of the UK-wide forum for National Training Organisations
(NTOs) in construction. In November 2000 I attended my first meeting of
that forum in London, and recently we had a joint meeting with Forás Áiseanna
Saothair (FÁS), the construction industry training committee, in Dublin.
Our entire board met the entire committee in Dublin and we identified some areas
of common interest, which we plan to address together. 1587. We
fully appreciate the co-operation of other organisations, and there is no doubt
that the industry in general benefits from that sort of strategic link. We are
currently addressing some priority issues on behalf of the industry which coincide,
not surprisingly, with the focus of the Committee's inquiry into education and
training. The issue of the funding and provision of new entrant training to
meet industry's current and future needs is particularly highlighted at this
time, as well as the issues of skills forecasting and skills and labour shortages,
given Northern Ireland's unique haemorrhaging of craft skills across
the border to the Republic. 1588. Over
the past five years we have experienced an increase in the number of new
entrants to the industry. The training network as a whole is currently recruiting
1,700 young people annually into construction traineeships. However, the
increased numbers coming into the system appear to concentrate on carpentry
and joinery with the result that recruitment into other occupations, in particular wet trades
such as bricklaying and plastering, is not meeting the industry's needs.
That is resulting in severe shortages in these areas. The CITB estimates that
it will need to recruit about 9,500 new entrants over the next five years
to meet the industry's needs. We are actively considering how best this can
be achieved in partnership with the Government and the further education sector.
We believe that we must target not just school leavers but also older entrants
who require retraining or reskilling. We are also actively encouraging
more young women to join the industry at all levels. 1589. We
need skills outside the traditional manual areas, for example, in supervision
and management. Traditionally, the source for these occupations has been tradesmen.
However, as the industry continues to fail to recruit sufficient numbers, the
availability of experienced tradesmen to rise up the ladder will diminish. This
has implications for the calibre of new recruits to the industry at supervisory
and management level. They are now coming from the ranks of building and civil
engineering graduates. 1590. The
CITB offers those graduates further training in management and other skills
to prepare them for their tasks. As the sector representative body for construction, the CITB supports
the industry's improving its competitiveness by identifying and responding
to the training needs of the workforce and by promoting best practice. Strategically,
we will continue to be the focus for construction training by developing guidance
for the industry and other training providers. 1591. We are continually strengthening
and developing our relationships with various awarding and lead bodies,
Government Departments and the higher and further education sector to ensure that the training
needs of the industry are considered and met. 1592. If
you are agreeable, Mr Chairman, I do not propose to go any further. Rather,
my colleagues and I will endeavour to address any questions or comments that
the Committee has. 1593. The Chairperson: Thank you very much,
Mr Gillespie. That was extremely helpful. 1594. Mr R Hutchinson: In paragraph 2.2 of the document you gave
us you said that finding a solution to the problem of recruitment into the industry is difficult.
What do you think
are the major barriers to recruitment? 1595. Mr McMullen: I think it is the image of
the industry. Construction
is competing for young people and many other industries are offering
seemingly attractive jobs with softer skills. This is the main issue that the
industry is facing. 1596. Mr R Hutchinson: Do you have a problem with career officers
in schools? Is there any difficulty there? 1597. Mr McMullen: Not necessarily. We have
a team of four careers people who work very closely with training providers,
schools and colleges. We have a successful programme of job sampling, through which we encourage
school children to come to our premises at Nutt's Corner, and we hold sessions
at the schools. We have a good work relationship with them, and I do not think
that we have any particular problem, but we are up against many other industries,
and it is a very competitive market. 1598. Mr R Hutchinson: But do you think careers
teachers in schools are au fait with what the industry offers or the type of
people it needs? Are they likely to point children in other directions, than
the building industry? 1599. Mr McMullen: I think you are right, yes. I think that
is the case. 1600. Mr R Hutchinson: With regard to the shortfall
of school leavers coming into the industry, is that not a problem that you need
to deal with? 1601. Mr McMullen: Yes, we do need to deal with that. I was
suggesting that we are dealing with it in the way I have described. 1602. Mr R Hutchinson: What plans do you have
to deal with it? 1603. Mr McMullen: Well, there is a lot more
opportunity for colleges to work closely with the schools. We are working with
several schools where fourth and fifth year students now spend a day visiting colleges. Recently
we spoke to St Peter's in the Creggan, an all-boys school, which has developed
a programme through which about 30 boys in the fourth year spend three days
a week at school, one day at the North West Institute and one day doing work
experience. They are young kids, and there are problems with that. So we are
working on a range of ideas with the colleges and schools. We also involve employers
where we can. So there is a problem, but we feel that we are addressing that
in partnership. 1604. Mr Beggs: Bricklayers and plasterers are
increasingly being valued financially by employers because their skills are
scarce but in demand. Has the message got through to the schools and the children
that good wages can be earned by learning these particular skills? I understand
that in the past they may not have been as well paid as they are at the moment,
but there is very good money to be made in bricklaying and plastering now. Are
trainees or apprentices given sufficient wages to attract them? How long do
they have to wait until better money becomes available? 1605. Mr McMullen: There are two parts to your
question. First of all, the message is beginning to get through. This year, recruitment
is up across all the main construction trades. 1606. This
year, just under 1,000 young people are training in joinery and carpentry. That
is in the paper and was mentioned by Mr Gillespie in his introduction. This
is a very good thing as they are very good, basic skills for construction. This
year, we are only 30 or 40 people short of our projected target to meet the
needs of the industry in bricklaying. You are right that bricklayers are getting
a lot of money. One of the major problems is the work available in the South
of Ireland at the moment. I was with my opposite number in FÁS recently. FÁS has
estimated that another 81,000 people are needed in the construction industry
over the next five years to meet the needs of the national development plan.
The plan includes building approximately 60,000 new houses over the next five
years. Last week, I was with my opposite number in GB. He estimates that 370,000 people are required
there. When you add our 10,000 to that, it totals 460,000. 1607. Under the current Jobskills
training system, young people have a non-employed status and get a £40
a week training allowance up to NVQ level 2. The construction industry is losing good people to
industries that are employing them from day one. One of our strategies
is to encourage employers to work more towards employer-led modern apprenticeships, employing
young people from day one. We have been talking to the T&EA about developing
a strategy to encourage that over time. We believe that that is the answer. Young
people have to be employed from day one, because they are attracted by a job,
not a training scheme. 1608. Mr Beggs: I can understand why there are
perhaps problems with bricklaying and plastering as it is heavy and wet work,
and workers can be exposed to the elements. However, can you explain why there
is a shortage in the areas of plumbing and electrical work? A reasonable level of technical
skills is required in those areas, and there is certainly a huge potential for apprentices
to go on, after several years' experience, to set up their own businesses. Why
are there these shortages? People should be queuing up to get in. 1609. Mr McMullen: We cannot speak about the
electrical sector as it is not within our scope. However, plumbing is within
our scope. The shortage in all the trades these days has really been exaggerated
by the boom in the South of Ireland. It was difficult for anyone to predict
how incredibly successful that boom would be, and the drain that there would be on resources
in Northern Ireland. If it were not for that, we would have met the needs
of the industry in Northern Ireland. Last week in the South, they were telling
me that plumbers and electricians are now ringing employers looking for jobs,
so perhaps there is a little hiatus at the moment. 1610. Mr Gillespie: Our experience is that there
is not such a desperate shortage of plumbers. We have just come from a meeting with
our plumbing committee, and it is bang on its recruiting target for the
current year. It identified the needs. Obviously there are sometimes local shortages, and ups
and downs, but there is nothing like the pressing problem that there
is in the South. 1611. Mr Byrne: I would like to welcome the
CITB representatives. I want to know what the CITB has been doing about having
better quality training for 16-year-olds who want to make a positive decision
to enter the industry. I contend that the CITB has failed many young people.
It has 63 staff and it should have been more proactive in the manpower planning
for this industry. I want to know what you have to say about modern apprenticeships,
and how much you have been involved in the designing and tailoring of these
modern apprenticeships within the remit of the T& EA. 1612. There
is a crucial role to be played here for many young people if Northern Ireland's
economy and the building industry take off. It is not good enough to say that
we are losing people. We have always lost people to the construction industry in London, Scotland
and America. 1613. Young
people tell me that they cannot get on to a meaningful training course. They
want to know where the apprenticeship is that they can join. 1614. Mr McMullen: Mrs Wallis will take the question on modern
apprenticeship. 1615. Mrs Wallis: Industry should be involved
in the framework designed for modern apprenticeships and in the design of the
standards for NVQ attainment. Since I took up my current post with the CITB
two years ago, we have been facilitating industry and identifying exactly what
its requirements are. 1616. We
are currently consulting with all the main representative bodies to find out
to what extent the modern apprenticeship frameworks are relevant to the industries'
and the sector's needs in Northern Ireland to use to benchmark against the standards
coming from Great Britain from the national training organisation and the employers. 1617. This
role is a major part of the work, which my division, strategic planning and
communications, is involved in at the moment. The frameworks should be designed
by industry, for industry, to enable it to get the right calibre of young person,
with the right qualifications, for its production needs. 1618. I
also want to touch on the point that you made about our role in ensuring better
quality training for new
entrants. Since I became the head of the strategic planning and communications
division in January 1999, we have worked very proactively and in partnership
with the T&EA, the colleges of further and higher education, the Association
of Northern Ireland Colleges and some of the independent training providers. 1619. Our
aim was to look at standard patterns of training, which would best meet the
industry's needs, rather than the training system itself, being an entity in
its own right and not actually linked directly to the needs of the industry.
Over the last 18 months, and indeed yesterday, we had a meeting with T&EA
to see how we can make progress on that to make sure that the pattern of training is
somehow standardised and that we have the sort of meaningful training programmes
that young people have been asking you for. 1620. There is always the issue
of training for specialist occupational areas for which there is little
or no provision in Northern Ireland. That tends to be dealt with by the CITB
in two ways. Through our direct training unit, and as a training provider of
last resort, we run
programmes for the specialist sector. More often, we link up in partnership
with a training provider such as the Belfast Institute to run courses for the
six or 10 young people that, for example, the roof slating and tiling sector
needs to meet its specific requirements. That is a tailored programme with a
framework. 1621. Mr Gillespie: I have been in the building industry for 40 years.
I recall the time when the apprenticeship system was very simple. You
went along, joined a company, spent five years there, maybe went to the technical
college one day a week and got your City and Guilds certificate. That was a
well-trodden path and a well-recognised way of achieving. 1622. Nowadays,
we are so hamstrung by funding mechanisms that instead of funding being tailored
to suit the needs of the training, we are trying to skew the training to suit the funding.
That is the wrong way round. 1623. Mr McMullen: Mr Byrne has hit issues in
a number of areas. We do not disagree with what you are saying at all. Over
the last two or three years we have endeavoured to address these issues. However, we have to bring the employers
with us. It is our job to encourage the adequate training of those in
the industry and those intending to be employed in the industry. 1624. I
was a builder for 25 years and I remember the days when you took on an apprenticeship
on day one, went to the technical college and did a City and Guilds certificate.
Over the last 10 or 15 years, all that good work has been dismantled. National Vocational Qualifications
(NVQs) were introduced. They are bureaucratic; there are funding issues, and
we could tell the Committee some horrendous tales about the quality of training. 1625. The
way forward is to work in partnership with the colleges. Although the training
centres in Northern Ireland did a good job, particularly for the construction
industry, a problem arose
when the colleges were pitted against the training centres. In Omagh,
for example, there
was a training centre and a college. The college may have had half a class and
the training centre half a class. Now there is the opportunity to run
one good class of, for
example, 20 bricklayers. The merger has been good. 1626. The
chairman of the board, senior staff and I have contacted all the college principals.
We are going forward in partnership. We know that the entire system cannot be
changed. Yesterday, however, we met Mr Tom Scott from the T&EA to examine
ways by which to bring everyone involved closer together; to involve employers
at an earlier stage; to make work experience meaningful; to integrate key skills
with training; and to ensure that the colleges are focused on practical training. The points
that you raised are valid. We have worked exceptionally hard over the
last couple of years. It takes a long time to achieve, but we are beginning
to see light at the end of the tunnel - everyone is starting to work in the
right direction. 1627. I
will finish on the point made about modern apprenticeships. It is an important
issue. Without a shadow
of a doubt, employer-led modern apprenticeships are the way forward. 1628. Mr Byrne: I appreciate the honesty of
your answers and the Committee is not in conflict with that. However, the Committee would
like to see a stronger case made for the type of modern apprenticeship
required. Should it be three years long or should it comprise one year's in-training
and two years on the job? Which is it? What standard of competency
is needed, for example, after three years? My honest opinion, as someone
who knows something about industry, is that it must be three years long. There
must be lobbying to ensure that there is adequate funding support for those
employers in the industry who want to take on trainees. 1629. Mr Gillespie: We could give a good presentation on that
very subject which would answer all the Committee's concerns. However, we cannot
do that in the timescale available this afternoon. 1630. The Chairperson: Maybe in the future. 1631. Mr Dallat: Paragraph 5.8.3 states that
there are no entry
criteria for Jobskills and traineeships. Paragraph 5.9 discusses key
skills and suggests that they should be taught in school. How much time is taken
up addressing skills, which should have been covered at school, but have not
been? The Committee has focused on this. Evidence provided by other witnesses
on basic literacy and numeracy has been disturbing. If there is a problem, tell
us about it. 1632. Mr McMullen: This is a vital point as
well. There is no
doubt that the modern apprenticeship requires these key skills. A good
tradesman needs those key skills in order to do the job. We speak on behalf
of the employers,
and they are disappointed that the 16-year-olds presented to them do
not already have these key skills. Training providers say that they have to
use the funds available for apprenticeships to teach people skills that they
should already have. The funding is not being used to teach practical skills. 1633. Employers have told us that
they want bricklayers on their sites who can lay one brick on top of
another, and bricklayers are paid well to do that. Employers ask us if it is
really necessary for bricklayers to be good at reading and writing. We reply
that it is - they have to read plans and specifications. That is the dilemma.
Colleges tell us that there is only so much money in the pot and only so many
hours in the day and, therefore, they do not want to introduce entry criteria
- although there are entry criteria for plumbers and electricians. Colleges
would be in a better position to address key skills if we recommended that minimum
entry criteria be introduced. 1634. The
head of our careers department, Mr John Gault, gave me this example. Imagine
if you were in a class and a wee lad put his hand up and asked "Please sir,
what exams do I need to become a bricklayer?" If the answer is "None", he will
down tools at the age of 14 and do no more studying for two years. He will tell
his parents that he does not need to do any studying or homework to become a
tradesman. 1635. So we want to say, for example,
"We recommend that you get a grade C at least." Our approach is to recommend
rather than lay down the law. It is open access, and although everyone should
be able to follow the trade he wants to, there has to be a balance. It is a
matter of resources. 1636. Mr Dallat: How much of your vocational
training time is taken up dealing with basic skills - areas that should have
been addressed already? 1637. Mr McMullen: In "off the job" training,
the trainers have to address the issues of practical skills, the underpinning of knowledge
or theory, NVQ assessment, which is a horrendous bureaucratic nightmare, and
now Key Skills. I would not be able to give you a percentage right away, but
certainly there is conflict. The employers say that they want practical skills
to be taught because that is what they will be paying people for. They understand
that other skills are needed, but there is a conflict among the four areas in
terms of the allocation of resources. 1638. Mrs Carson: This is something dear to
the Committee's heart.
I notice that page 8 of your brochure mentions facilities for new entrants,
recruitment, retention, and teenagers being encouraged to stay on at
school. What you have said has probably partly answered my question already.
A lot of teenagers are being pushed into academic achievement, possibly beyond
their capabilities. The other thing that Mr Gillespie spoke about was the issue
of graduates. Were you talking about them turning to manual work or to industry? 1639. Mr Gillespie: I was saying that, in the
past, most of our people who became managers started off as tradesmen. Now because
there is pressure on tradesmen, and also because they are so well paid, they
do not want to be managers. Site managers now tend to be graduates, coming from
university with a civil engineering or building degree, and we at CITB try to bolt some
practical training onto their academic knowledge in order to turn them into
site managers. 1640. Mrs Carson: So really the industry is
losing out at that end by getting people coming in with "head knowledge" but
no "hand knowledge"? 1641. Mr Gillespie: Yes. 1642. Mr McMullen: Yes, to a degree. There are some very good young
graduates, both men and women. In fact I presented an Investors in People
award last night to a construction company, and the principal of that company
was complimenting a young graduate who had been with him for six months. He
had a degree in building from the University of Ulster, and the company principal
thanked the CITB because we had grant aided the year out for that student. The
builder had taken that student on during his year out, and, on realising how
good he was, employed him. We are trying to encourage that as a way for graduates
to come through, which is beginning to work. 1643. I
will now return to the first part of your question about young people being
encouraged to stay on
at school. I was very concerned about that and recently visited a number of
schools and spoke to principals and vice-principals. They say that the
pressure is coming from parents who are saying "We want them to go to university"
and "Any course will do". Also, according to the principals, kids see construction
as a hard, physical job, and children seem to be a bit softer these days, preferring
keyboard skills to construction. So there is a job to be done in that respect. 1644. However,
we have some great successes in Northern Ireland. We recently had a carpenter
who achieved a diploma of excellence in Montreal at the Worlds Skills Competition. His marks in carpentry
were fourth in the world, so the system in Northern Ireland is producing
very good kids. I know that the Chairman here has a particular interest in that
area. It is not all about winning medals, but it shows that the young people
of Northern Ireland, with the system here, are capable of achieving world-class
skills. Our general view is that the system needs tweaked, but it is not
too bad. 1645. The
key resources in Northern Ireland for training young people are the instructors
and lecturers in the colleges. They are the key people, and we have some tremendous instructors
and lecturers in Northern Ireland in all the colleges. People who formerly worked
in training centres are now working in the colleges. That is the key
resource. You can get a building or a shed anywhere, you can get some bricks,
but it is more difficult to get instructors who have the desire and ability
to teach. 1646. Mrs Carson: You said in your key targets
for last year and this year that you wanted to see a 10% increase in the number
of women in the industry. Have you met, or will you meet, that target? 1647. Mrs Wallis: Unfortunately, the industry
at all levels - trade level and higher and further education level - has very
small numbers of women. The Department issued some statistics recently for the
last training year that showed that only 2% to 3% of the intake to higher and
further education were female. For us to increase that by 10% would only require
a couple more women on each programme, and it would be seen as a success. 1648. In
November 1999 we launched an initiative called "Women into Construction". It
is an awareness initiative that is trying to say to young women in secondary
schools that there are opportunities in areas such as painting and decorating,
as well as in the technical and professional areas, that they can go into if
they so wish. We are very much at the awareness stage, but we hope to build
on that. We hope that the intakes in September 2001 will reflect the good work
of our careers people in job sampling and career taster days in partnership
with the colleges. I use the term "conversion rate". We want to convert that
awareness and enthusiasm into actual participation in some of the programmes. 1649. Mr McMullen: We have looked at this very
carefully. There has to be a sense of realism. We had a women's union committee with
us recently, representing a group in west Belfast. We asked them what
the issues were? Was it about welfare; strength; what? One of them gave a really
good answer. She said "Have you ever tried washing the dishes with a child in your arms?"
In other words,
the big barrier to women in construction is not strength but male chauvinism.
It is the attitude of men on sites that is the biggest barrier. It is hard
enough for
young men on sites. These guys are pretty macho men. That is the key
problem. We have to be realistic about the problems. 1650. Mrs Carson: So you have not achieved the
10% target? 1651. Mrs Wallis: Realistically, we have not. It is much too
early in our initiative. 1652. Mr Hay: Mr Byrne touched on a point that
is fairly close to all our hearts. Bureaucracy has crept into the whole issue
of training in Northern Ireland. Gone are the days when you did three or five years and produced
some of the best tradesmen that Northern Ireland ever saw. They did not just work
here; they went further afield. 1653. I
know that you are not responsible for electrical engineering, but I know more
about that than about any other subject. One thing that I have noticed, especially
in relation to electrical engineering, and even in some plumbing companies,
is that once the young chap or girl has completed his training, the issue arises
of paying that young person the proper salary. I received a deputation of young
people employed by bona fide companies in my city that would be vying for fairly
major Government contracts; they are not obliged to pay a young person the required
rate. That puts young people off, and they look for another avenue in
life, after going
through the training and getting the qualifications. Companies are not
paying the proper salary yet they are getting millions of pounds worth of Government
contracts. 1654. I can name at least five
or six bona fide electrical companies in my city that refuse to pay the
rate. They are using unemployment in the city, because they know that a young
person will find it difficult getting a job anywhere else after two or three
years of an apprenticeship. They know the young person cannot leave and will
have to stick with the firm. There are a few firms that pay the bona fide rate. 1655. Payment
of the bona fide salary rate is not enforced. This is a problem when a young
person has decided on a career and finds himself squeezed by an employer who
says "You can either work for me or go on the dole." The matter should be addressed
across the industry.
It is not happening in electrical engineering. Many young people say
to me "I have gone through training, I have qualifications, I have been with
the company for three years but I cannot get the salary to which I am entitled". 1656. Mr Gillespie: I do not want to appear
as though I am ducking this issue, but the CITB is not involved in setting or
enforcing rates of wages. Our job is training. We look at the effect of pay
on training, and we have been encouraging employers and unions, through their
joint councils, to pay a decent rate of wages. Wages have risen considerably.
In my experience, if I had not paid somebody at least the basic rate, I would
have had no workers. The competition for employees in my area is such that nobody
would work for me unless I paid at least the basic rate, and in most cases more.
This problem that you have mentioned may be a local one, as it does not generally
apply. We support paying the proper rate, and in most cases the trade unions
have a remedy. There are six trade union representatives on our board, and they
would be keen to learn of any employer who was not honouring wages and training
contracts. 1657. Mr McMullen: A typical Jobskills trainee leaves school in June, goes on summer
holiday for two months and then goes to a training provider on a Monday
morning in September. He does a week of induction training, goes to the college
for two or three days, and by the Wednesday or Thursday of the second week,
he is out on work experience getting £40 a week plus a travel allowance. He
works in this pattern for a while, but he is still only a schoolboy on a building
site. The builder feels sorry for him and slips him £30. The boy has been in
the industry for two weeks and he gets £30 in his back pocket, plus a £40 training
allowance and possibly £20 travel expenses. That totals £90 a week. 1658. He
works like this until he gets NVQ level 2. Once he has NVQ level 2, he has to
be employed. He goes back to the employer on Monday morning with the NVQ level
2 and says "I now have to be employed because I have NVQ level 2. I also want
a rise because I am in my second year and have an NVQ level 2." The employer
has to find perhaps £120 after paying the trainee £30 the previous Friday. This
is a funding problem that we need to address. 1659. Mrs Wallis and I met Mr Tom
Scott of the T&EA yesterday to discuss the encouragement of employing
trainees after at least 26 weeks. After the 26 weeks, the £40 training allowance becomes
a grant that the employer gets. The grant culture in Northern Ireland
is one that we would not encourage, and we are trying to move away from it.
The aim is to move employers back to the days of employing trainees from at least their first
day. 1660. The
other problem is that schoolboys and schoolgirls - schoolboys in particular,
as I have previously mentioned - are going onto building sites with no skills.
It is no wonder that employers are saying to us "These young people are hopeless.
They have no tools or training, and they have been in college for only a week
before they are allowed on the site to do work experience." We advocate - and
we ask the Department to consider this - bringing young people into the construction
industry from school and giving them six months solid training in order for
them to learn the basic skills. 1661. Employers
will say at the end of the six months, "That young person has at least some
basic skills, so we will pay him some money." They will pay them the recommended
first-year wage. It would be good if they could get financial assistance for
on-the-job training, but at least they will be productive. However, as school
children on work experience, which is all they currently are - 1662. Mr Hay: Training at the moment is driven
too much by finances. 1663. The Chairperson: We have the next set
of witnesses waiting outside. I have two more people to ask questions, Mrs Nelis
and Mr Carrick. Can you make your questions as short as possible? 1664. Mrs Nelis: Yes. I shall not go into any preamble, though I could, for we have
not talked about hairdressers, only about plumbers and so on, and there
is a gender problem. I wish to talk about assessment, as it is important and
you give a great deal of attention to it. You are concerned about the risk that
candidates who have been awarded NVQs may not be competent to fulfil the needs
of industry. What is your primary concern in that respect? Do you feel the issue
will be addressed by the absorption of the training centres into the further-education
colleges? 1665. Mr McMullen: First, young people are assessed
at NVQ level 2. Industry's expectations of NVQ level 2 people are too high,
for they take them for the finished product. I remember the five-year apprenticeship.
There is a perception in industry, because of excessive expectations, that they are
not competent. 1666. City
and Guilds, as part of the awarding body, says that assessment should be more
work-based and that
employers must take more responsibility. Ultimately, it is the employers
who say who is competent. We have set standards through the NVQs and assess
young people in accordance with them. Employers must take more responsibility
for assessment rather than leave it to the colleges. Partnership is perhaps
the way forward, but employers are reluctant to take that route, for it is a
costly and bureaucratic exercise. 1667. Mrs Nelis: May I ask you very quickly
- 1668. The Chairperson: Sorry, Mrs Nelis. We
must move on. Mr
Carrick's question will have to be the last. 1669. Mr Carrick: I was very taken by Mr Gillespie's
summary of how he views the situation through personal experience, and
I empathise with that. It seems to be a question of access. What are
your views on the progression from education, through training, to industry? Are you content,
for instance, with the education curriculum? Does it properly address
the issues you face in your industry? 1670. You
also mentioned the quality of training, with which you seem to be fairly content
- the quality that would be available if you could get the young people and
secure access to it. Would you like to comment on that progression? 1671. Mr McMullen: I am happy to answer that.
You ask if the education system is producing the people that we want. I do not
believe it is. Too high a percentage cannot read, write, or count, and they are not academically
minded. We say that they switched off at the age of 14 when they realised they
were not going down the academic route. That is why we recommend that they work
a little harder at school. The education system is not producing quality young
people for us, measured against very basic academic skills. 1672. Mr Carrick: Is that a weakness in the curriculum? 1673. Mr McMullen: I do not feel qualified to comment. 1674. Mr Gillespie: We know of the many pressures
on the education system, from which everyone wants more. One reads that there
is to be more road-safety training and so on. We do not wish to venture into
saying yet more should be packed into the curriculum. 1675. Mr McMullen: We all want young people
educated as broadly as possible. However, employers in Northern Ireland do not
need bricklayers who speak French. 1676. Mr Beggs: Has the modern apprenticeship
pilot increased young people's motivation? 1677. Mr McMullen: Absolutely. 1678. The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee,
I should like to thank you, Mr McMullen, Mr Gillespie and Mrs Wallis, for spending
your time with us this afternoon and, indeed, for the written submission, which
we shall look at carefully as part of the overall inquiry. You have struck
many chords this afternoon, particularly when you said the funding system should
serve rather than distort training needs. That is certainly a powerful
message, and we shall take it on board. 1679. Thank
you very much. We wish you well in your continued work. 1680. Mr Gillespie: May I make a few points?
There is some good news. In March, we have our Northern Ireland regional skills
competition in Newry under the aegis of the Newry and Kilkeel Institute. This
is a regional competition, the winners of which go forward to a national competition.
Winners at national level then go forward to an international competition. This
year, we have two people from Northern Ireland going to Korea to represent the
UK. 1681. Further
to that, we have succeeded in getting the UK competition to come to Ballymena
from 5 June to 7 June. I strongly recommend any member of the Committee who
is interested in seeing good craftsmen under training to visit one or both of those competitions.
You will be amazed
when you see the standard of work. 1682. Finally,
we have touched on a number of points today which we have only been able to
answer partly. We would love the Committee to come to Nutt's Corner. We could provide
accommodation for a meeting, give you a short presentation on what CITB
does and answer a number of the questions raised today in more detail. 1683. The Chairperson: Thank you. We welcome that invitation. 1684. Mr R Hutchinson: Can you send us the information
on Newry and Ballymena? 1685. The Chairperson: Thank you. Congratulations
to those who have succeeded in that way. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 8 February 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr Hay Mr R Hutchinson Ms McWilliams Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Prof B Hill ) Mr D Lamont ) Northern
Ireland Textiles and Mr A Elliott ) Clothing
Training Council Mr P Frazer ) 1686. The Chairperson: You are welcome to the
Committee session. Robin Newton, Clare Ennis and Michael Harris have accompanied
the witnesses. 1687. Thank
you for the written submission on the clothing sector and the Committee has
noted the Kurt Salmon study and report on what might be done for the future
of that sector. 1688. Mr Lamont: Gordon Parkes, the chairman
of the Textiles and Clothing Training Council, is unable to attend today due
to a prior commitment, but he would like his apology recorded. 1689. Prof Hill: The report submitted to the
Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment dated 15 November was compiled from
information from industry and academia. The Northern Ireland Textiles and Clothing
Training Council (NITC²) is the representative body recognised by the Government
as the training and education voice of the textile industry. Its members are
representative of the various sectors with an interest in the well-being of
the industry. The board's directors are from the industry, education
and trade unions, and the organisation is a company limited by guarantee. 1690. I
am glad that the Chairperson recognises the importance of the textile industry,
which currently employs 18,000 people and has a turnover of £944 million. Textiles account
for 20% of all Northern Ireland exports so it is a major contributor
to the economy. The ethos of the report, not surprisingly, is endorsed by the
recent Kurt Salmon report, which was commissioned by the IDB and launched by
the Enterprise, Trade and Investment Minister, Sir Reg Empey, on 21 January. 1691. As
all Committee members have a copy of the report I will not repeat what it contains.
Rather, I will update the information, indicating what has happened in the last
two and a half months and expand on some of the information in the report. 1692. In development initiatives
and training, in appendix 1, the objective of NITC² to become a member of the National Textiles
Training Organisation (NTTO) and becoming involved with the Clothing and Allied
Products Industry
Training Board (CAPITB) is described. Those objectives have been met under improved existing
training. We have
investigated and analysed the education and training developments, and
from the list of programmes that we are currently running you will see that
that has taken place. 1693. The
column dealing with the marketing and selling of programmes describes how NITC²
developed strong
links with the Training and Employment Agency and the Department of Higher
and Further Education, Training and Employment. The column dealing with how
NITC² developed partnerships with relevant organisations shows that we do meet
with the SDC, the TI and the other boards. 1694. The
final heading shows that NITC² has strong links with the universities. Not only
do we have links with universities here but a delegation from NITC² has gone to the University of
Manchester Institute of Science and Technology (UMIST) and the Bolton Institute,
which are strong textile institutions. Representatives from the Bolton
Institute have already been back to talk to us. By the constitution of the committee
we have strong links with the University of Ulster, through myself, and the
Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education (BIFHE). 1695. Appendix 3 shows a list of
programmes provided by the NITC². The management development programme was launched
last November but it started on Tuesday with 14 delegates and the first half-day
meeting has been
held. The senior management strategic programme has an agreed budget
of £25,000. 1696. The
brand imaging and logistics programmes are ready to go to tender. An agreement
to deliver in-company learning facilitators has been signed by NITC² and the
agency. 1697. There
is no National Vocational Qualification level 4, building on levels 1 and 2,
and on level 3 for manufacturing textiles. There has been a need for that and
is now being developed. 1698. The
textile awareness for middle management and supervisors is a new development
in the last two and a half months, and a series of half-day seminars is being developed for that.
The graduate design conversion programme has been taken forward and we
now have a draft
proposal. We are moving on with the programmes that have been listed
in the report, and other new ones. 1699. In
appendix 4 of the report we show the training needs of different companies.
Companies are asking if there is a need for in-house training. This is typical
of a sector made up of many small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs), with
definite but disparate needs. In many cases the companies have minimal personnel,
and cannot afford time for people to travel overseas. There are obviously common
needs in IT, but the council is examining how the various needs of different
companies can be met in a cost-effective and efficient manner. A grouping
has been developed to help, under the working title of "The Threadbare Group".
This is a team of well-qualified and experienced technologists and human resource
personnel, and they are addressing how best to transfer the vast amount of knowledge
in the industry at
the minute, to the greater good of the sector. 1700. I
want to talk about the Kurt Salmon report, relating to technological innovation.
There are two points to discuss. One is body scanning, something that could
be useful to the industry and has links with American practices. There is also
a grouping in Nottingham Trent University, under Prof Stephen Gray and we already
have links with him. The other area is a computerised design and sampling facility.
We are looking at establishing such a facility within the sector. To create
such a resource is going to cost around £75,000, and we are looking at ways
of getting funding to raise that. 1701. Mr Hay: Your council does a lot of good
work in training
in the clothing industry generally in Northern Ireland. The industry
has gone through a difficult period over the last number of years, right across Northern Ireland.
Cheap imports have been continually coming into Northern Ireland. Companies
also decide to set up overseas for cheap labour, sometimes to the great annoyance
of the local labour force. How do you continue to address that, as that situation
will get worse rather than better? While there may be no way to stop that practice,
can anything be done to slow it down? 1702. Mr Lamont: Obviously every company must
have its own individual solution, but there are companies in the sector who
most definitely see the threat - a very large threat. You are quite right in
assuming that the threat is going to get larger. This year will see the end
of the multifibre agreement, and, certainly, next year's quotas will be all but meaningless. There
has been a seismic change - cheap imports are a big problem undoubtedly. 1703. In
the KSA Report, the IDB initiated document, they make play on Kurt Salmon's
recommendation that there could perhaps be a role in using a strategic alliance
in an area. With a disparity in labour rates of 80%, one just cannot compete
on a head-to-head basis. You
can maybe do something with a 2% to 5% disparity, otherwise it is just
no contest. 1704. In
fact, Kurt Salmon has identified that strategic alliance may be the way forward.
Desmonds in Derry, have used that to their advantage. Inside their own operation
they have tried to identify those systems which are appropriate to Northern
Ireland - fast response or high margin goods, which can still continue to be
made in Northern Ireland, albeit with a bit more capital investment. However,
50% of their output now is actually manufactured abroad. 1705. The
answer probably lies in trying to meld with the problem, bend with the breeze
rather than try to stand against it, because frankly it is a losing battle. 1706. Mrs Carson: Has the industry an image problem, and how
can it be redressed? How can we help you? 1707. Mr Lamont: The industry would accept it
has an image problem, but I have got to say, as you would expect me to, it is
an ill-deserved image problem. It is one that perhaps has its roots and traditions
in dark mills and bare-footed children. Things are slightly different now. Companies
have most definitely moved with the times. Through the work of the Training
Council, we have tried to put in place training schemes which offer opportunities
to the industry. 1708. Also
there are other things that must be addressed. You have got to show people what
you are doing. Our sister organisation, the Northern Ireland Textile Association,
(NITA) is addressing that through its work with schools. Public money is used
as some of those schemes are run by Growth Challenge. Money is being spent to
get the message across, appearance at career fairs and things like this, but
it is a difficult problem. Once these things get ingrained in peoples' consciousness
it is very difficult to change it. There are companies who would love to know
the answer to be perfectly frank. It is a difficult question. 1709. Prof Hill: We have world-class companies
in Northern Ireland, there is no question of that. The problem is that we do
not sing enough about them. We sing about the closures and this helps create
the image of a dying industry, which obviously it is not. This is where help
would be welcome. Sing the praises of the companies, say that we are a vibrant
industry. 1710. Ms Carson: Is that where the Committee,
or the Assembly could help you? 1711. Mr Lamont: To be honest the problem is
very difficult to
crack. Every night you read in the newspaper that another textile company
has closed. There would be few people encouraging children to go into the industry
at present. I wish I had the answer. Apart from trying to get the message across
in the ways described, and working with the schools directly to encourage children
to think about the clothing and textile industry as a career, I really am not
sure of the answer. 1712. Mr Frazer: One vehicle we have for communication
is our sister organisation, NITA's newspaper, 'Cutting Edge'. It would help
if we could circulate the paper more widely to schools. It tells of the success
stories in the clothing and textile industry. The paper is under threat financially
and we need to continue it because it is really our only way of communicating
with the general public. 1713. Mr R Hutchinson: Are the jobs normally
quite low paid jobs? Is that a problem? 1714. Mr Lamont: No, again that is a traditional
perception. The trade has obviously had to come to grips with the minimum wage
regulations, but very few companies would have actually had to take action to
comply with those. I do not want to give you the idea that jobs are very well
paid, but they do not, by any means, come towards the bottom of the tree, which
most people would expect. 1715. Building
on from what the report would suggest, a different breed of job is coming through
now. It is a more high calibre job in terms of logistics and picking up strategic
alliances. For example, if some of a firm's production is to be located in the
more remote corners of the world, then it would need people to handle that.
There would be the need for higher calibre jobs, not necessarily in production,
but in, as I say, areas such as logistics and contract management. A different
type of person with a higher calibre of education will be needed to do such
jobs. The scenery is changing as we speak. There is no doubt about that. 1716. Mr Byrne: Of all of the delegations we
have had, your industry is probably the one that is under the greatest threat.
Obviously, certain parts of the world have got a high fashion textile image,
Italy being one of them. I would like to ask Prof Hill if he sees any future
in Northern Ireland trying to develop some sort of higher value added textile
industry. Are we still only producing textiles at a particular stage in the
cycle and is there
any co-ordination between research, development, design, and marketing?
Have we only been nipping into a particular segment of a particular industry,
and has it purely been in the production segment, where the margins have always
been traditionally very thin? 1717. Finally,
textiles are very important to those of us who come from the north-west. Desmonds
have a factory in Omagh and they employ about 500 people. They have another
factory called Naturelle in Omagh, which employs 200 people. Herdmans, in Sion
Mills, employs 1,200
while Adria, in Strabane, employs 1,000. Please forgive me for being particularly
concerned about
the whole state of the industry and its implications for employment. How much co-ordination
is there between the textile employers? Is there a proper forum, or do
they go their own ways, and as a result do not benefit from the sort of cluster
type synergy, which applies to the other industries we heard about earlier? 1718. Prof Hill: There is a great deal of that.
I shall talk about
the design element. We have higher value-added products in Northern Ireland
and world-class companies in the clothing sector. It is vitally important
that we talk about these companies and let the big, bad world know that they
are out there and doing things. We can improve and broaden our base, and that
will be part and parcel of the work of the training council. We must build on
the companies we have. 1719. Mr Byrne: Do you only have desktop design
in your university faculty, or must we develop a stronger faculty of textiles
covering production, design and marketing? 1720. Prof Hill: The school of textiles and
fashion design is in the faculty of art and design. I am a textile technologist,
and part of my role is to teach the technology to textile design students, so
they spend part of their time studying technology. As far as textile technology
per se is concerned, there is only limited teaching - not only in Northern Ireland,
but in Ireland as a whole. This is something which we are trying to address
by looking at the colleges and universities in England, examining ways to link
up with them and from that source find the technologists of the future for us
to train. It may always be difficult to persuade enough organisations
to run courses in textile technology in the Northern Ireland further and higher
education system. 1721. Mr Lamont: I should like to build on that
and address certain
points not covered in Prof Hill's answer. The major players in Northern
Ireland are large, world-class companies, and you mentioned a number. One of
the difficulties for the sector is that there is a great raft of companies of
modest size, and therefore modest means. They are probably under the greatest
threat. Companies such as Herdmans Ltd and Desmond & Sons Ltd are sufficiently
large to make their way, but the smaller companies can be a problem. They represent
a particular task for the council. 1722. We
have a healthy trade organisation. In the first stage it was the Central Council
for the Linen Industry, before widening its remit to become the Northern Ireland
Textile Association. Under that umbrella, there is an entire satellite network
of committees, sub-committees and other associated bodies linked through NITA
to provide some form of co-ordination. It could always be improved, but I would
not underestimate the present degree of co-operation. The Northern Ireland Textile
and Clothing Training Council is both formally and informally linked to NITA.
Therefore, if we have a problem which goes beyond training, we can link to whatever
is appropriate through NITA. The image would be linked to training in particular. 1723. Mrs Nelis: I worked in a shirt factory
in my early life.
The shirt industry was the economic backbone of Derry, where I come from,
for 100 years, and its decline has had a dramatic effect on the city's economy. 1724. Even
when people diverted into other aspects of the textile industry, it did not
work. In the last few years we have had about 3,000 job losses in the manufacture
of shirts, jeans, underwear, uniforms - all women-centred, of course. I am sure
you are well versed in this. I, as an elected representative, was bitterly disappointed
that our Government did not give the attention it should have given to trying
to support what are euphemistically called "the traditional industries". 1725. With regard to the Jutland
study, had the Government done what the Danish Economic Minister did when faced with
the same problem in Denmark, do you feel that the situation would perhaps have been turned round? 1726. What
is your opinion on the craft industry, which is recognised worldwide but not
given support? 1727. Mr Lamont: Concerning craft industries,
the problem is that they are small-scale. They are normally individuals working
in isolation. It is difficult to envisage so many individuals coming together
to make an industry. I am conscious of so many jobs having been lost in Derry,
but if you went down a craft route you would replace only a tiny minority of
those. There is always a place for craft, but the answer to our problem does
not lie in that area. 1728. Mrs Nelis: I did not suggest that. 1729. Mr Lamont: I appreciate that. The Jutland
study is interesting, and there are lessons to be learnt, but I believe they
are not immediately applicable to Northern Ireland. Jutland has some advantages
over Northern Ireland.
There is a land bridge into Europe. There are some very major and affluent
countries connecting onto Jutland, which are looking for high-quality merchandise.
Northern Ireland is a country on the periphery, and there are two stretches
of water to cross before reaching Europe. There are difficulties. Transport
and our own sense of remoteness probably add to those difficulties. 1730. One area touched on in this
report, is the obvious application of the new electronic links. We can
use those to try and jump distances, to become a little bit more connected to
the market place and to the strategic alliance partners with which one might
form up. There are some solutions, but one cannot adopt a laissez-faire attitude.
There are interesting lessons to be learnt, but no easy solutions to be found
with the Jutland experiment. 1731. Mr Dallat: In your submission you say
that the textile and clothing industry needs to survive. You go on to suggest
that there is a need to establish stronger and more efficient supply chains.
Perhaps you would tell us a bit more about current difficulties? Large retail
multiples have the power to kill industry stone dead, as they have done with
the bread industry and various others. Could you suggest what their role is,
other than to make huge profits? 1732. Mr Lamont: The quick answer is that we
are all culpable. It is too easy to point the finger at the large multiples;
it is really their customers - and we are all customers of them. I do not want
to embarrass anyone here
by asking them where their shirt or jacket came from. 1733. Mr Byrne: If we want the textile industry
to survive it has got to have a value-added brand and a marketing image. Young
people will pay enormous sums of money for a branded product. 1734. Mr Dallat: Bearing in mind the things Mr Byrne mentioned,
surely there is a great onus on large retailers, who are benefiting from profits,
to be locked into the industry in the same way as the pharmaceutical industry
and others are. 1735. Prof Hill: Manufacturers are generating
the research and development going on in our university at present. It is not
being generated by the supply end. 1736. Mr Beggs: Is there any merit in further education colleges taking the lead
role with a degree of learndirect, so that some distance learning and an occasional
coming together could take place in the industry? 1737. Mr Lamont: That is happening, and we should
not undersell what we are actually doing. One of the difficulties, and perhaps
Prof Hill is more qualified to say this than myself, from an employer's point
of view, is that the halcyon days when we would have 20 or 30 students in the
technical college waiting to be told about textiles have long since past. The
requirement now is for a company to train one or two people in key positions. 1738. From a purely commercial
perspective, universities and further education colleges are being told
to become profit
orientated and self-sustaining. They cannot afford to run courses for
one person. So, we are looking for new forms of education and training such
as distance learning packages. That is why it is so important for us to link
up with other centres of excellence and use a network approach. We can learn
from places such as Bolton and the University of Manchester Institute of Science
and Technology. We could use a satellite organisation as the provider here,
and the student could then go on to those centres of excellence for particular
specialities. For that reason,
the whole idea of education and training is changing. We are looking
at much more individually tailored packages, because numbers of students are
not being generated. 1739. Prof Hill: We talked about the halcyon
days, and I was educated in textiles during that time. I was in a large class,
and five of us went on to do a textile degree. Those days no longer apply as
far as further and higher education is concerned. 1740. The Chairperson: I am pleased that you
are not only concerned with training at the shop floor level but at management
level also. I am sure that in the clothing and textiles sector - and no doubt
it came out in the Kurt Salmon study - change in management culture will be
as important as change at shop floor level. 1741. In
returning to Mr Dallat's question about the impact of the purchasing pattern of major multiple stores,
there is a question of management strategy and management training. Why did Northern
Ireland clothing companies become almost totally, and in some cases
totally, dependent
on, for example, Marks and Spencers? Training will be necessary to ensure
that companies do not become dependent on one source, or market, in the
future. 1742. Mr Lamont: I have no remit for Desmonds,
but it made a strategic decision and was well aware that it obviously exposed
them in one sense. At the same time, even with hindsight, it has proved to be a winning
strategy. Look at the size that Desmonds has grown to. We hope that if
we can manage this change, making sure that management is open to change and knows how to handle
it because these are turbulent waters, then Desmonds will continue using the methods it has adopted,
to survive and thrive. 1743. The Chairperson: It worked for Desmonds,
but it did not work
for other companies and it is the balance of the economy that we are
looking at. Thank you very much, your presentation has been fascinating. Also, thank you for
your written submission, we will pay careful attention to it. Clearly you are set for 18,000
employees. It is too large to be ignored because whatever happens in
your sector has a major impact on the rest of the economy. We wish you well
in your work and thank you very much for coming. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 15 February 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr R Hutchinson Mr J Kelly Ms McWilliams Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Prof P Roebuck
) Dr C Egerton
) Northern Ireland Credit
Ms D Patton ) Accumulation and Transfer System 1744. The Chairperson: I welcome the representatives from the Northern
Ireland Credit Accumulation and Transfer System (NICATS) and thank them for
the background papers that they have supplied to the Committee. 1745. The
Committee is keen to hear more about the progress of the accumulation credit
system and its impact on the training and accreditation system in the Province. 1746. Prof Roebuck: NICATS is grateful to the
Committee for the opportunity to give evidence. It is hoped that it will be
valuable to us and to you. Monica Deasy, director of NICATS, is on sick leave,
so the two assistant directors are with me today. 1747. As
well as the briefing paper, you should have a copy of the NICATS response to
the Programme for Government and copies of my presentation. 1748. NICATS
allows all learner achievement, even small amounts, to be recorded and recognised.
The introduction
of Curriculum 2000 requires qualifications to be unitised, and in that
is a recognition that learning needs should be accredited in smaller blocks.
The NICATS project ran from 1996 to 1999, and it was funded by the Department
of Education for Northern Ireland (DENI). The recommendations of the project were accepted, and
the Department decided that NICATS should become part of the Government's
overall plan for the encouragement of lifelong learning. 1749. An
implementation committee was set up in 1999. Its objectives were to establish
a central unit, that now
exists in York Street in Belfast; develop a credit framework in collaboration
with other interested parties; provide staff development to support that
framework; generate links with a variety of bodies in Northern Ireland and elsewhere
in these islands and Europe; and to develop a database and design a credit transcript,
both of which will powerfully underpin NICATS operations. 1750. It
is funded by the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment,
which sees it as central to the lifelong learning policy. I am chairperson of
the implementation committee, and on it are representatives from all the major
stakeholders in Northern Ireland and beyond. We work closely with a number of
other credit agencies in these islands, and we are learning from them. 1751. This
may sound pompous, but in Northern Ireland, we are ahead of the game. No other
credit organisation has made as much progress as ours has over recent years. 1752. I
am sure that you will want to know why NICATS is important to education and
training in the Province. I have plucked out a number of words and phrases from the Programme
for Government. Those words not only underpin the Programme for Government
but also the NICATS agenda. 1753. I
want to look at a few of those phrases and explain briefly why NICATS is going
to promote them. First, NICATS sets out to motivate people to take up learning
by offering learning in smaller blocks and giving it credit immediately and
clearly. This will make learning opportunities more accessible to a wider range of people than take
advantage of those opportunities at the moment. In other words, we want to make lifelong
learning a reality. All achievement will be recognised and recorded on
a personal transcript. Learners can build credit towards further study if they
wish. That system will make it much easier for them to study when, where and
at the sort of pace which suits them. 1754. With
regard to equality, NICATS will provide a common language for recording learning.
That will help to establish parity of esteem between a variety of different
qualifications, something which is missing at the moment. With regard to skilling,
NICATS will enable employers to respond much more rapidly to training needs. Learners
will be able to claim recognition for the learning that they have achieved.
Programmes dealt with in this way will positively contribute to the various
targets set by the Government. NICATS will untap the potential of individuals
by engaging them in learning, increasing their motivation and, perhaps above
all, by taking the fear out of education by offering an alternative to the traditional
linear process of learning. 1755. NICATS
will help to make that decisive shift from education for employment on the one hand to education
for employability on the other. In other words, we will not be educating
people to do a particular job. We will be developing a wide range of their abilities
to do a variety of jobs throughout their working life. NICATS will facilitate
this by providing an adaptable and flexible system. People will be able to take
short, relevant credit-based programmes. This will encourage the culture of
lifelong learning, and it will enable employers to go about their training in
a more focused and cost-effective way. We will help to raise standards by encouraging
all stakeholders to adhere to the principles and guidelines of NICATS. That
will ensure standards. 1756. The
facilities which we will provide will allow programmes to be much more carefully
tailored to meet
market needs. NICATS programmes can be regularly updated, so curricula will not easily get out of
date. Standards will be raised by making learning achievement much more
explicit. Learners will know exactly what is expected of them. Employers will
know what people have achieved up to a certain point. Their progression routes can be made more transparent,
and new pathways can be created for them. With regard to implementation,
we are working across the United Kingdom with other partners in the Credit
Equivalence Project. We are very closely involved in the FE sector/NICATS in
the Access Curriculum Development Project whereby all 39 Access courses
throughout Northern Ireland will have common modules and will, therefore,
work to the same standards and objectives. 1757. We
are very involved in the development of foundation degrees. We are embedding
NICATS in the higher
education sector through participation in the Quality Assurance Agency's quality
agenda. We are collaborating with other credit agencies throughout these islands,
and we are producing a manual on credit-based learning. 1758. We
are on the verge of launching our web site, which will be important in promoting
NICATS regionally
and nationally. We will have a database of units which will help practitioners
to devise programmes of learning to NICATS specifications. A transcript
will be developed to record individual learner achievement. That is our agenda,
and we would be delighted to answer any of your questions. 1759. The Chairperson: Thank you for an extremely
concise and useful summary. 1760. Mr Beggs: The concept of encouraging people
to take smaller bites at education and build on those, rather than be put off
by daunting high goals, is excellent and must be encouraged. I like the concept
of a credit accumulation
scheme. Can you give us examples of how that would work in practice as
regards higher and further education? It appears to be quite theoretical. How
would it encourage people to adopt higher standards of education and thus help
the economy? 1761. Prof Roebuck: My colleagues can talk about
the community and voluntary sector and about access. However, I will begin by
giving an example. I have been involved in higher education for 30 years. Frequently,
people have to drop out of education, or they have to change institutions for
a variety of domestic and personal reasons. In other words there is some break
in their education programme. Until now, most cases have been dealt with on
a purely individual basis. If a person drops out a quarter of the way through
the second year of a course and has to move to another institution for family
reasons, they would often go back to the beginning of the second year, and time
and money are wasted. 1762. NICATS will record the level
of their achievement in terms of credit as they move through a course,
and all of the stakeholders in the system will recognise our transcripts and
our database. This will mean that when life-changes interfere with people's educational
progress, they can move on more quickly and effectively, albeit in a
different place. 1763. Dr Egerton: The community and voluntary sectors are represented
by Annie Moore of the Northern Ireland Open College Network, who is a
member of our implementation committee. The Open College Network accredits non-formal
learning, for example, learning that can be taken in small steps. It gives people
who have not been involved in learning the chance to engage with education and
build up to more formal qualifications. 1764. It
is very important that NICATS embraces such work and that it all comes under
the same framework. It is also very important that all learning, whether formal
or not, is recognised within that framework, so as to allow people to progress.
The model tries to bring transparency to learning in that it is based on learning
outcomes and assessment criteria. It is also transparent in that we will have
a common language for describing learning, which learners and employers will
understand and so be able to compare what has been achieved. 1765. To
assist us, we are involved in a process, involving all of the sectors, of putting
together a manual on the credit-based approach to learning. 1766. Ms Patton:I can best answer the question
as regards standards
and retention. We are working with 39 Access to Higher Education courses throughout
Northern Ireland. Access to Higher Education programmes are really directed
at adults who have few, if any, qualifications. They are one of their main
routes into higher education. 1767. At
the moment, all 39 Access courses are offered through 19 centres. Although all
of the courses have the common core of numeracy, communication, IT and study
skills, the 19 centres are doing 19 different things, more or less, so part
of our project will be to have the 19 centres doing the same thing as far as
possible, and as far as is educationally practical and feasible. 1768. We
are intending to develop core modules in maths, communication, IT and study
skills that are used by those courses. We see benefits in doing that. 1769. Although
you get mature students going into higher education programmes, the problem
is that there is a very high drop-out rate within a few weeks of their starting.
That happens for a variety of reasons, but mostly for financial reasons, family
or other personal commitments. They simply cannot stay the course. Many drop
out and think that it is another failure and that they have wasted their time. 1770. These
Access courses will be based on a series of modules for which students will
receive immediate credit once a module is completed. If they have to drop out
for some reason, they go away with their credit recorded on a transcript. They do not go away as
failures but as having credit recorded in their transcripts' bank account,
so to speak. 1771. We
came across some research by people at the University of Derby, where they operate
such a credit system. They found that although they still have a 20% drop-out
rate in the first few weeks of an Access course, 60% of the drop-outs who leave
with some credits for what they have achieved come back and complete their studies
within two years. This research is showing that a credit-based approach to learning
can work. 1772. Mr Beggs: What is the continuation study
rate for those who drop out of studies in Northern Ireland? How many of those
who drop out of the Northern Ireland universities subsequently come back and
complete their studies? 1773. Ms Patton: I do not have any information
on that. 1774. Prof Roebuck: There is no systematic work
being done on that. We strongly suspect that the drop-out rate is quite high
in pre-HE Access courses. 1775. Mr Dallat: Professor Roebuck's contribution
to lifelong learning is well recognised. We want to make best use of his time.
One of the problems in the North and the South was the acceptability of qualifications
in both jurisdictions, and membership of the European Union has at least forced
some of the institutions to address that problem. Nevertheless, there is still
a horrendous problem for many of the people that you are focusing on. Is there
anything an organisation can do to widen access and, at the same time, prevent
exit? 1776. Prof Roebuck: I am very happy to give
you a positive response to your first point. It is very important that NICATS
articulates effectively, not just with stakeholders in Northern Ireland, but
with other credit systems throughout these islands and further afield. For example,
we are watching ECTS (European Credit Transfer System) in continental Europe
very carefully, and we are in touch with many of the credit agencies in Britain. 1777. With
regard to the South, when our project report was published in 1999, I arranged
for it to be distributed widely in the Republic. As a result of that, the committee
of university registrars in the Republic came up North, and I gave them a presentation
on it. Monica Deasy, the director, and I went down to Dublin to give a presentation
to a larger group of people. Since then, we have begun to get traffic from individual
institutions and teachers. 1778. That
is under way, and we are pleased with the progress that has been made on that
front. Would you repeat the second part of your question? 1779. Mr Dallat: You are encouraging access
as far as possible. Can you discourage exit? 1780. Prof Roebuck: Quite apart from the specific
Access programmes, the best we are going to achieve here is twofold. A great
deal of learning goes on in the community and the voluntary sectors, but it
is done in small chunks, at levels that remain unconnected with the main educational
system. 1781. One
of our chief functions is to gather that learning, to accredit it and to link
it on, not to a "ladder" but to a "lattice". That is a major priority. The second
element - and Dr Egerton might want to comment on this - is that we are already
interacting very closely with business and industry in Northern Ireland. If
we do not do that we will fail. 1782. Dr Egerton: In terms of increasing access,
one of the major features of the NICATS model is to encourage the motivation
of our learners. They can receive regular accreditation for learning and can
build that up, rather than be faced with a distant examination two years down
the line. Motivation is very important. 1783. In
relation to our involvement with industry and employers, the NICATS model is
very useful in enabling employers to customise their programmes for potential employees. That
has various economic benefits. Employers are able to ensure that programmes
are tailor-made. Employees will be motivated and will get recognition for their
training. Accreditation will allow training to be put towards other awards or
to other uses, and not just within the company. 1784. We
are involved in a UK credit equivalence project. That is a major project for
us. It is looking at credit equivalence for qualifications. Curriculum 2000
allows more flexibility, but employers and learners need to be able to compare
qualifications. There is a great deal of confusion about the worth and levels
of the different qualifications. We are trying to establish credit equivalence
for national qualifications and the units that go towards making them up. We
recognise that certain qualifications do not necessarily suit all employers
and learners. They want to be able to take the units that suit them, and they
need to be able to get credit for those units. People need to know what the
various units are worth and how they can be built upon. The project is looking
at NVQs, A levels, GNVQs, et cetera, and their respective units. 1785. Our
first two staff development days were held last week, and we have people from firms such as Shorts,
Nortel Ltd, Michelin Tyre plc, F G Wilson (Engineering) Ltd, Harland & Wolff
and Seagate Technology interested in the credit equivalence exercise.
They see it as being very relevant in bringing transparency and worth to qualifications,
allowing them to offer more meaningful and relevant units to their employees,
rather than the full qualifications. 1786. Ms Patton: I will give an example relating
to widening access. I have been interviewing learners to get their ideas on
credit and how much they feel it would help them. I interviewed someone last
week in relation to a case study for our web site and our newsletter. This individual
left school at the age of 15 with no qualifications. Before marrying and raising
a family she got a series of what she called "very boring" junior office jobs,
with tasks such as filing and making the tea. In her 40s, after raising her
family, she wanted to get back to work. She found that the office environment
was now so computerised and different that she had no qualifications that would
have enabled her to get a job. The only job that she could get was as a cleaner
in the University of Ulster. She then moved to canteen work in the university.
She told me that she had wanted to get back into learning and that the only
way she could think of was to do GCSEs, as they were the recognised qualifications. 1787. She
went into the GCSE course, and it was full of 16-year-olds. She said that she
felt such a misfit that she dropped out after a short time. She then found out
through her work union that there was a Return to Learn programme that was offered
by one of the community organisations. She told me that it was a complete revelation,
because it was covering all the things she really needed to get herself back
into a proper job. It covered interview techniques, listening skills, presentation
skills as well as Maths, English language, and so on. 1788. She
was able to complete the course because she could take it in bits and get credit.
She told me that she enrolled for the course because she was not scared of doing
it in bits, but she would have been scared of doing a complete course that might have taken a year.
As a result
she continued with her education, has now completed a university bridging
course and intends to go into university full time, if she can get the funding
for it. 1789. That
is an example of someone for whom the traditional GCSE qualifications did not
work. They demotivated her, but when these other programmes came into play,
they were just what she needed. One of her final points to me was that people
do not really understand the courses that she followed, except the ones that
are well recognised. If she had had a NICATS transcript that gave credits for
those "funny", as she called them, courses she has done, as well as the more
recognised diploma courses, and so forth, it really would have meant an awful
lot to her. For us, that is really what NICATS in action means: widening access. 1790. Ms McWilliams: Having worked with Ms Patton 10 years ago at trying
to put those Access courses together, I am familiar with credit accumulation.
I want to commend you for how far this has come. Clearly this is the
future, and it is good to hear that Northern Ireland is ahead of the field.
Perhaps you could comment on what makes you come to that conclusion. 1791. Is
there a time limit on credit accumulation? How long can a student be allowed
to take time out and still get currency for what they have accumulated? Is there
a limit on a date of return without asking them to repeat anything? 1792. In
one way I am impressed with the way that you are universalising the core modules
across 39 Access courses. But on the other hand, having been so familiar with
the Access courses, I am somewhat concerned that they may all be driven to core
modules. Where is the individuality and the room for that, particularly given
that, as you said, many of the students do not have formal qualifications? It
is quite scary that it is numeracy and information technology, study
skills and communication. I know from experience that it was numeracy
that made many of them jump a mile. 1793. What
gatekeepers still need reassurance? In a sense, I suppose that is a marketing
issue. How well are we on the road to marketing the idea of credit accumulation?
Ten years ago the problem I had was trying to get the two universities to recognise
that and market it between each other. Now we are at the stage of getting employers
to do so. I am not just talking about marketing to employers, my question also
addresses something Dr Egerton said about convincing returners, or people
who have left school before they were 15, that credit accumulation means something.
It still sounds terribly formal. What we are talking about is returning to learn
and how well we are marketing that in our most deprived communities. 1794. Prof Roebuck: May I accept the invitation
to make a brief comment on why we think Northern Ireland is ahead in this? I
would just like to comment on the last question. We do not want to make Access
slavishly uniform,
but we do want to give it a recognisable core, which is a slightly different
thing. I think that Dr Egerton will want to say something about the whole issue
of limited credit. 1795. Some
things can be done much more effectively in Northern Ireland than elsewhere,
and this is one of them. Northern Ireland is a clearly defined area. If you
had a credit group in northern England, where would you start, and where would
you end? There are demarcation problems. Northern Ireland is a clearly defined
area. 1796. Secondly, here there are
a relatively small number of institutions: two universities, the Open University, 17 further education
colleges, three agricultural colleges, the Ulster People's College, the
Workers Educational Association, and so on. Most of the people who work there,
particularly at certain levels, know each other well and are used to working
with each other. All those people are represented on the implementation committee
and were represented on the project committee from 1996. Those stakeholders have already bought into
that. 1797. I
think that you can do that more effectively in Northern Ireland than you could
in southern England, or the Midlands, or northern England or even in the Republic
of Ireland, because you are dealing with a smaller, more coherent area, one
in which people are used to working with each other for various reasons. That
is what our claim is based on, and it is interesting to note that many of the
main features of the system that we have developed have been taken up by others.
For example, our generic level descriptors are now accepted throughout the sector
as the best that have been devised. The trouble is that the language is not
terribly sexy, so there is a problem of marketing here. 1798. The Chairperson: Can you tell us what
a generic level descriptor is please? 1799. Ms Patton: Since Dr Egerton's project
was instrumental in developing those, she will be able to do that. 1800. Dr Egerton: They were developed during
the first phase of our project as one of the main aspects or architectural features
of the credit framework. There are nine levels from entry level to level eight
which span the higher and further education sectors. They describe the attributes
that you would expect of learners at each stage of learning. 1801. Prof Roebuck: We are saying that those
generic level descriptors have been adopted by the other credit consortia in
the UK as being models of their kind. 1802. Dr Egerton: It has also been nationally
agreed to use them within the UK Credit Equivalence Project. 1803. Ms Patton: On the issue of access, Monica
McWilliams has hit the nail on the head as usual. We are not slavishly trying
to have standard core modules that sweep across all of the Access courses and
take up most of their curricula. The modules being designed by the project team
are ones that people can use if they wish. However, the momentum for this comes
from the practitioners themselves and the difficulties that their Access
certificate holders are experiencing in progressing to higher education.
Some of them encounter really serious barriers if they do not have the maths
GCSE equivalence. We hope that if we have this maths module, then anyone wanting
to solve that problem with their Access course could take the module and use
it for their students. 1804. The
NICATS model is offering a different way of looking at, and delivering, learning.
The people that we have in the project team include practitioners who have very
innovative and exciting ways of delivering mathematics. Because we have practitioners
in the team from a range of colleges, we are hoping that that collaborative
activity is going to feed into a very different sort of maths teaching on Access
courses. Many students, certainly in the humanities Access programmes, are terrified
of maths and will happily say "This maths scares me to death" when they come
on to the course. Equally, on the project team, we have practitioners who say
"I start my first class by saying that I am terrified of maths
myself" or "I can understand that you are scared of maths. Let's look
at different ways of learning about it". We are hoping therefore to make maths
a core module that is less scary for people. Also, if students do not want to
take the full maths module for GCSE equivalence, they will have the option of
taking individual components, leaving out certain bits if they wish. However,
we will certainly be encouraging the Access practitioners to try to deliver
the whole module to students. 1805. Dr Egerton: The currency depends on the
subject area. For
example, with IT or anything to do with communication the subject matter will
be changing constantly, so the currency of learning is an issue. It is
up to the gatekeeper to decide whether the learning is current or not. However,
if it is recorded in a transcript showing the level and volume of learning,
that says something about the individual. It tells us they have reached a particular
level of learning and are capable of progressing to the next. I feel that is
important. 1806. Ms McWilliams: So there is no limit. They
could go out for four years and then return. 1807. Prof Roebuck: In certain subject areas, questions may have to be asked about
the reliability and relevance of learning achieved five or 10 years before.
However, the important point is that, in one central database for Northern Ireland,
there will be a transcript record showing that, at least at that point, a certain level
of learning measured against the curriculum in question was achieved.
That system is accepted by all the practitioners in the Northern Ireland tertiary
education sector. It is the absence of that agreed system right across the Province
which so often provides obstacles for people as they progress, reducing their motivation
and making them fail to take the available opportunities. 1808. Mrs Nelis: Thank you very much for your
presentation. You are all very welcome. I am very impressed by your key anticipated outcomes.
The credit system crosses the academic, vocational and further education
divide by encouraging a culture of learning skills. Is there any evidence of
a fear in the traditional educational sectors that transferable credits might
dilute their unique educational contribution? 1809. Prof Roebuck: I am sure that there are
a variety of levels of fear and apprehension when one contemplates the introduction
of a quite radical new system. However, if we look back a decade, it would have
been difficult, except in theoretical terms, to talk about the Northern Ireland
tertiary sector at all. Now it is both possible and realistic to do so. The
inter-relationship which has grown up between Northern Ireland's higher and
further education sectors over the last five or 10 years, through franchised
and validated programmes, progression routes from colleges into individual universities
or the network of 39 Access programmes, most of which are in the further education
sector, has transformed the situation. I suppose we are saying that this is
a further consolidatory process to make those links stronger and render
the tertiary sector seamless. 1810. The practitioners range from
absolutely convinced, dedicated enthusiasts at one end of the spectrum
down to very sceptical, fearful people at the other, and there are many in between.
However, there are far more people now at the positive end, whereas 10 years
ago there were more at the other. We are trying to tilt the balance of attitudes
decisively and also trying to produce a system which will allow the positive
sides of those attitudes to bear real fruit in achievement. 1811. Mrs Carson: Welcome. Thank you for your
presentation. We
have discussed academic achievements and how you are to bring them together
into some sort of credit. I should be interested to know how you see industry
gaining from the use of credit accumulation. 1812. Prof Roebuck: Dr Egerton has already spoken
of the number of large firms in the Province with whom we are already directly
engaged. It is also worth bearing in mind that we are in contact with a great
many small- and medium-sized enterprises. There is a particular example from
engineering which you might want to say something about. There is one general
point: your Chairman,
in a press release a few days ago, talked about ladders of opportunity.
That is an entirely right and proper way of looking at it. However, we should perhaps like
to change the word "ladder" to "lattice". 1813. It
is not just upwards, it is across as well, and it is already beginning to happen.
When people are educating and training themselves, it is no longer in just one
institution. They may be taking some of their learning from an educational institution,
some from the Internet or from the Open University or be taking an
accredited programme put on by a particular firm. We are trying to create a
system in which the various approaches to learning are encapsulated and
brought together rather than remaining separate as they are currently. 1814. Secondly,
in industry, often you do not want somebody to do a degree or even a year-long
course, but you want them to do a concentrated chunk of specific professional
training, and you will get them to do it more readily and make them more enthusiastic
about it if you accredit it and get it recorded so that they can build an edifice
from it. At present, employers recognise the short courses that their staff
take to a degree, but they are often left adrift. However, if they were formally
accredited by a central agency according to a clearly understood system, they
would constitute building blocks for a larger achievement. 1815. The Chairperson: Thank you very much.
That has been very interesting and useful, and I like the picture of the lattice in
addition to the more traditional idea of the educational ladder, which most
of us have probably grown up with. We will have to give consideration
to that. Thank you also for
the background notes and material. I have little doubt that we will be returning
to you in the future. We wish you well in your continuing work. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 15 February 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr R Hutchinson Mr J Kelly Ms McWilliams Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Mr C Holmes ) Northern
Ireland Council Mr R McCune ) for the
Curriculum, Dr A Walker ) Examinations
and Assessment 1816. The Chairperson: This meeting is being
held in the context of our ongoing inquiry into education and training for industry
in Northern Ireland. 1817. Thank
you for your submission. We are likely to focus on your ongoing curriculum review,
which has as one of its objectives the setting up of a framework for the development of skills
with particular reference to vocational education and information and communication
technology (ICT). We would like to commend that objective. 1818. Dr Walker: I would like to introduce my colleagues, Roger
McCune, who is responsible for curriculum and qualifications development
in the 14 to 19 age range, and Cecil Holmes, who works in Mr McCune's unit,
primarily in the areas of vocational qualifications and careers. As head of
education services for all the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA),
my responsibility is in the area of curriculum, examinations and assessment. 1819. We
want to comment on our submission and update you on recent developments in our
work and elsewhere that we believe are relevant to your inquiry. Our written
submission is divided into two parts. The first part deals with changes that
have already taken place, or that will take place shortly, to the curriculum
and to qualifications. That reflects the CCEA's role as an advisory body on
the curriculum and development and quality assurance of qualifications. 1820. The
second part of the submission refers to the specific role of further education
colleges. We have a statutory responsibility to advise on the curriculum for
all young people in full-time education until the age of 19, whether they are
in schools or in colleges. When we offer advice on matters concerning the 16
to 19 age group,
we do so simultaneously to Mr Martin McGuinness and to Dr Seán Farren. 1821. In 2000 we consulted extensively
on the outcomes of the first phase of the curriculum review, which concerned
whole-curriculum issues and the aims and values underlying the curriculum. The
framework for the curriculum and how it should be constructed was also covered.
In the revised curriculum we also wanted to clarify and make explicit issues
relating to personal, social and health education, as well as citizenship and
employability. 1822. We
gave a clear signal, in the consultations at the end of phase one last year,
on the enhanced place of skills and competencies within the curriculum. Our
belief is that the curriculum should no longer be regarded as knowledge-led.
In that consultation the responses we received were, for the most part, very
positive. There was a lot of detailed feedback, and we have been making use
of that as we progress the second phase of the review. 1823. I
would like to say something in particular about what we have been doing in relation
to 14 to 16 year olds, as that is the age group that this Committee is probably
most concerned with. We are almost ready for a second stage of consultation
on a more detailed framework for the curriculum for that age group. 1824. We
have with us pre-publication copies of a consultation paper that will be launched
next month, which we would be pleased to leave with members of the Committee.
We would be grateful if the paper could be regarded as confidential at present,
but obviously if members have any comments or queries they would like to take
up with us, we will be only too delighted to respond. 1825. In
our view the proposals represent a significant move towards greater flexibility
for schools and for individual students. At the core of the proposed framework, we have placed the
six key skills of communication, application of numbers, information technology, working
with others, managing
or learning, and problem solving. We have suggested that those skills
should be the statutory minimum entitlement for all young people, along with
some aspect of the curriculum that is work related. We emphasise that we intend
that to apply to all 14 to 16 year olds. 1826. We
have also emphasised the role of personal development education, including citizenship,
and of creativity, as well as science and technology. Together, that group should
comprise the statutory entitlement for all 14 to 16 year olds. We have emphasised
the value and the role of language learning, but we are not at this stage proposing
that it should be compulsory for every pupil. We think that there may be small
numbers of pupils for whom, at present, that may not be productive. 1827. We
look forward to the responses we are due to receive to this document in April
and May. We will then firm up recommendations to the Ministers at a later stage
in the summer. 1828. I
want to say a few words about the changes which took place in the curriculum for 16 to 19 year
olds in September 2000 with the introduction of revised GCE A and
AS levels, the new advanced subsidiary; the changes to the GNVQ advanced examinations, which
now become vocational A levels; and the introduction of the separate
key skills qualification. The intention behind those changes was a desire to
broaden the curriculum. Students might, for example, take a greater number of
the A and AS subjects than
they presently do, particularly in the first year. They might take the key skills
qualification as a separate qualification, or they might take a mix of academic
and vocational qualifications, particularly in the colleges of further education. 1829. It
is still very early days to begin to measure the impact of these changes. However,
a monitoring programme has been planned which will look at the impact of those
changes later this year. We would like to know to what extent each of the broadening
effects has actually
materialised and how successful practitioners, and indeed students themselves,
believe the changes to be. 1830. The
early indications are of varying experience in schools. Some have introduced
a greater measure of change than others, and some have found the changes easier to implement than
others. We know that substantial numbers of young people are taking four
subjects in the first year of sixth form instead of the more usual three. We
are not sure to what extent this represents broadening in that the fourth subject
may be a similar subject to the other three. We know that substantial numbers
of young people are taking the separate key skills qualification. We are a provider of that
qualification, and we have indications from a large number of schools
that they will be entering candidates with us. We are not yet aware of the number
of pupils who may be mixing academic and vocational qualifications, either in
schools or in colleges. We want to find answers to those questions, certainly
at the end of the first year as we move into the second year of changes. 1831. Finally,
I want to mention one additional development before Cecil Holmes talks about
lifelong learning in colleges of further education, and careers guidance. Two weeks ago,
Mr David Blunkett announced the introduction of vocational
GCSEs which will be created by remodelling the remaining GNVQ qualifications.
We have sent advice on this to the Minister of Education and the Minister of
Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and we are now awaiting
their replies. We see great value in the creation of vocational GCSEs. However, we are concerned
at the present timetable which is moving towards an introduction in September
2002. The CCEA has expressed concern to the two Ministers that this timetable
may not leave adequate time
for the proper development and launching of the new qualifications. 1832. Mr Holmes: Dr Walker has referred to the
CCEA's remit in relation to the curriculum for young people in full-time education
up to the age of 19. About 20,000 young people are taking courses in colleges
of further and higher education. Following on from Dr Walker's point, it is
fair to say that colleges have embraced the changes that were heralded by Curriculum
2000 in September 2000. Colleges have made, and will continue to make,
an important contribution to vocational education and training in this
community. 1833. As
is stated in our submission, questions have been asked about what the focus
of further education ought to be. It is also fair to say that in recent times
differential funding and other directives from the Department have attempted
to ensure that colleges provide courses more directly related to the economic
priorities of Northern Ireland,
particularly those identified by 'Strategy 2010'. 1834. Of course, there are many
people in the community who want to update their skills and knowledge
or obtain new qualifications. We believe that the concept of lifelong learning
is a reality for all of us. Colleges have a very significant role to play in
delivering that. 1835. The
move towards unitisation of qualifications, to which Dr Walker referred in his
comments, should assist
colleges to tailor programmes that suit individuals and small businesses,
because they have training needs to which colleges can respond. The Northern
Ireland CCEA argues that careers education and guidance is important. Recent
reports from the Education and Training Inspectorate (ETI) have suggested that
in some places excellent work is being carried out in schools and colleges.
However, some improvement is needed in other areas. As a result of the ETI reports,
we had a review of
careers education in Northern Ireland that was chaired by Professor Sean
Fulton, formerly of Queen's University Belfast. That report will be considered
by the two Ministers and we hope that careers provision in Northern
Ireland will benefit from it. 1836. Mr Carrick: In the past, the curriculum
has failed to move in tandem with the needs of industry. Unfortunately, that
failure has created a gap that we will try to address. Does the Northern Ireland
CCEA see any difficulty in attempting to create a curriculum that first, provides
for economic needs, and secondly, fulfils its duty in providing general education?
Are we in danger of falling between those two stools or will the programme be
properly focused so that it will deliver on both objectives? 1837. Dr Walker: I hope so. I have heard the argument that
the present curriculum has not given enough flexibility to schools because it
is based primarily on a range of academic subjects and is intended as a common
curriculum for all young people. Particularly in Key Stage 4, but also to an
extent in lower key stages, our revision of the curriculum is intended to enable
schools to better tailor the curriculum to suit the needs of individual pupils.
In my introductory remarks I mentioned that we emphasise the place of key skills
in the curriculum. We also emphasise employability. I spoke about personal development
at Key Stage 4 in citizenship. Employability will be studied in the area of
personal development, young people will be taught the skills they need to become
good employees or good employers. It will be an important area of the
curriculum. I hope that we do not fall between the two stools and that
we can move forward with enhanced flexibility that will allow schools to adapt
the curriculum to the individual needs of young people. 1838. Mr Carrick: Is that a radical change to
the present system? Is the present system designed to cope with such a radical
change? 1839. Dr Walker: We see the enhanced flexibility
opening the potential for change. Schools will be required to undergo a certain
amount of change. By providing flexibility we are also enabling them to make
changes that they might otherwise have been unable to implement. There is a
mixture; the changes in the curriculum will create and require change to some
degree, but they will also enable others to make changes. We also see
technology having a substantial impact on education over the next number of
years. We also see the role of teachers changing over that time. Schools and colleges will be going
through a period of considerable change. It will be important that all
of us in education services help them make that change successfully. 1840. Mr Carrick: Teachers will love to hear
that. I hear from the teaching profession that they are looking for a period
of stability. 1841. Mr McCune: In relation to Key Stage 4,
Mr Holmes and myself
undertook a "pre-consultation" exercise before Christmas. We talked to schools,
colleges and employers about the proposals that we were formatting. With
Key Stage 4, we are taking away what was very much the end of the Northern Ireland
curriculum. This is seen to mark the end of compulsory education by taking it
into the 14 to 19 year old dimension. That is a big change. Schools responded
positively to that change, because it gives them more responsibility. Schools
thought responsibility had been taken from them and that they were tied too
strongly to a content-led curriculum. 1842. Mr Holmes: That is one of the fundamental
questions that education faces. Dr Walker has stated that our essential responsibility
is to provide those broad key and generic skills that enable young people to
work in different situations. That is the basis of the skills focus in the curriculum
that has been outlined. As employment patterns change, it is difficult
to identify future needs. Therefore, we must try to grasp the nettle
of giving young people those basic generic skills. 1843. The
CCEA has argued that informed careers guidance must take labour market trends
into account so that young people can make informed decisions on the basis of those trends
and are not necessarily forced into a particular vocational area. The
CCEA works closely with
the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership (NIBEP) and change
and development must be based on this kind of partnership. 1844. The Chairperson: You have mentioned your
supervisory role in possible changes to the curriculum and how you envisage
changes in the labour market in the future. To what extent do you liaise with the Training
and Employment Agency, particularly its skills task force and skills unit? 1845. Mr Holmes: Throughout our work on careers
guidance, we received representation from the Training and Employment Agency, and
from our own qualifications committee. It is an important contribution. 1846. Mr McCune: We have had close links with
the Training and Employment Agency on basic skills, with particular importance
being focused on the area of adult education. 1847. Mr Carrick: The results of the skills
task force were alarming, revealing that there is a 70% skills shortage in the
construction industry. 1848. Dr Walker: That is a long-term problem. 1849. Mr McCune: Yes, those are the findings of the report. 1850. Mrs Carson: In your submission to the
Confederation of British Industry (CBI), you outlined the importance of young children having the knowledge,
skills and attitudes to equip them for work and lifelong learning, which
ties in with a change in attitudes from both schools and parents. In what ways
could the attitudes of parents be changed? 1851. Dr Walker: It is difficult for people in education to
challenge the parents' attitudes. Influence is the best method, and one of the
strongest influences is the ethos of the school itself. It is not simply what
is taught in the classroom or the subject matter but the way children are treated
and the ethos within the school. That transmits to home and helps to influence
parental attitudes. The way in which the school frames and approaches the curriculum
plays a part in creating that ethos and helps the relationship between parents
and schools. 1852. Mrs Carson: Do you think that our present
education system is failing industry? 1853. Dr Walker: There is clear evidence from
employers that they are not in receipt of the types of skills and attitudes
they require from the young people they recruit. 1854. Mr McCune: I was involved in the consultation
that led to Curriculum 2000. Dr Walker has already mentioned the importance
of employers, higher education and the wider key skills of managing one's own
learning, and all working together to solve problems. Our emphasis is
on wider key skills. Mr Holmes was involved in the GNVQ six unit pilot scheme
which we were very keen to spread across post-primary schools: grammar schools
and secondary schools. In talking about the proposals where we had a graded element and vocational qualifications,
we are not saying that those should only be taught in secondary schools. 1855. We have been pleasantly surprised
by the positive attitude from the grammar schools to vocational qualifications.
That also challenges parental attitudes because parents tended to view academic
qualifications as
offering more than vocational ones. The qualifications framework helps
because it gives qualifications equal status. It is important that employers
respond to that. 1856. Mr Holmes: The attitudinal change is difficult
for society. Mr McCune has mentioned that we have tried to improve the credibility
and rigour of assessment in vocational qualifications. It is crucial that the
name change to "vocational A levels" emphasises parity of esteem. 1857. The
other issue that concerns us is flexibility at Key Stage 4. Currently some young
people have set aside aspects of the statutory curriculum and, as part of their
work with a college of further education, are at least beginning to be introduced
to NVQ in their programmes. We believe that industry would like more young people
with NVQ-type qualifications. Within a credible framework we hope the flexibility
of Key Stage 4 will begin to address the needs of industry. 1858. I
would like to finish anecdotally. I have been asked to evaluate a school-to-business
programme in north Down. As part of that evaluation I met with two sets of parents,
and for the first time those parents fully understood what vocational qualifications
are about and the credibility in which they are held. Such small things will
contribute to a change of culture and a better understanding among parents. 1859. Dr Walker: In Northern Ireland there is
a prevalent attitude among parents that their children should aim for the professions.
Recent statistics show that the largest second-choice subject for pupils applying
for medicine at university is not biochemistry or molecular biology but law.
The reason is that law, like medicine, is a high-status profession. In that
sense, attitudes need to be challenged. We need a broader perspective for our
young people. 1860. Mr Dallat: This is an excellent document,
but many of the ideas have been around for a long time. They have never been delivered,
though I would suggest that that is not the fault of the CCEA. I refer
to lifelong learning, which has been worked on for a long time. The reality
is that you are not the engine that will drive the change, and I do not know
who is. 1861. Schools still operate between
9.00am and 3.30pm. The concept of lifelong learning is not a reality
in the communities. It was ditched about 12 years ago and has not been mentioned
since. Therefore, how do we deliver, or assess, the skills of the quarter of
a million people between the ages of 16 and 64 who have serious literacy and
numeracy problems? They are equal partners with everybody else in society, but
they have been left out of the equation for a variety of reasons. 1862. Your efforts to promote and
broaden personal and social education are highly commendable. It is the
best, especially,
dare I say it, those issues which directly influence the way we act politically, how we understand
our communities and
how every individual has an important role to play in improving them.
They are all in the document.
However, as you have pointed out, it will never constitute more than 10% of
the curriculum, and many schools, which are still focused on academia, will never consider it. I suppose that
it is a cry for help; it is certainly not a criticism. How can these programmes gain
the status they deserve, and how can those people who are out of the
loop completely be brought into the equation? 1863. Dr Walker: I want to say two things briefly,
and then Mr McCune may want to comment. 1864. With
regard to adult literacy, Mr McCune mentioned that we have had contact with
the basic skills unit, and we discussed how to deliver the basic skills programme,
which is aimed at adult literacy and numeracy, in Northern Ireland. We believe
that the CCEA would provide the basic skills qualification which will be made
available. It will have a specified curriculum and will be delivered through
the formal channel of colleges and through voluntary groups who do work on basic
literacy and numeracy with adults. The aim is for it to be an incentive and
an effective recognition for people who make progress. If they can establish
a level of skill in literacy and numeracy, it is hoped that it will provide
employers with convincing evidence of their achievement. 1865. I
will turn now to changes in the school curriculum and the emphasis that we want
to place on personal
development. Over the past few years we have been involved in much research.
We were involved in the Northern Ireland Cohort Study, which was an in-depth
study of young people's attitudes, particularly as they went through Key Stage
3. It focused on how they reacted to the curriculum and how they perceived what
they were taught in school. It was a rich study for findings. It discovered
that pupils gave recognition to the association between assessment and importance.
In other words, if something is assessed and accredited, then that is what is
important. 1866. Instead
of fighting against that, we have to run with it. Therefore, if we want to emphasise the importance
of personal development,
citizenship and employability et cetera, they must be built into the
examination and qualification structure. We hope that that will be the lever
to create and drive change. 1867. Mr McCune: Mr Dallat made a good point.
In my view, what we are doing has two tracks. First, there is a hope that changes
to the curriculum, if they work, will eventually mean that the current problems
are a thing of the past. Secondly, there is a need to address the existing issues. 1868. Dr
Walker mentioned the basic skills and support for those in lifelong learning.
For instance, the NICATS development has been referred to. The University for
Industry talks about a "bite-sized" area. Support is important. Dr Walker mentioned
key skills, and we have been in contact with the basic skills unit. The last
thing you want is a test that 60% of people fail. What does that tell somebody,
as an adult? Careful support is needed to bring those people back into education.
A "get going" attitude can develop, which can be helpful in taking on lifelong
learning. There is a big agenda. I hope that with the curriculum in place and
the qualifications to support it, we are going to take away the need for that
in the longer term. 1869. Mr Beggs: Returning to vocational training
and skills, I support the idea of giving high-fliers a taste of the real world of future
employment, and also the many underachievers in schools who are currently switched
off. What success have the current pilot schemes had? I understand that they are
helping to improve the attitudes and motivation of those whom the school
system has been failing. 1870. What
criticisms do you have of the current careers guidance structures? Are you aware of any better
models or any ideas that need to be incorporated? That is another key
feature in linking the world of employment to training, particularly at school
age. 1871. An
IT lecturer told this Committee that his or her child should not take a particular
computer course because it was so outdated that it would put them off the subject.
When will that be improved? Recently we were told that a popular A level course
in design and technology had been removed from the curriculum. What was the
reason for that? 1872. Dr Walker: A few years ago the CCEA was
under considerable economic pressure and decided to rationalise the range of
subjects that it offered. It did so in the context of a proposed collaboration
with one of the large
English boards. In the event, that collaboration did not materialise.
We have now moved to reinstate a number of the subjects that we had intended to withdraw
from, including design and technology. 1873. As
for computer courses being outdated, there is a division between what is taught
in schools under the heading of "computer studies", and ICT. Computer studies
is a course that is directed at people who may have an interest in working with computers at a
later time, for example by undertaking computer science degrees. On the
other hand, ICT is a general course aimed at those who want to become users
of ICT. 1874. There is a move towards orientating
large numbers of students towards ICT, but a significant number of pupils
may still be taught computer science courses that are probably not particularly
relevant to them. That is a change that is taking place. We are currently revising
GCSE provision for ICT. New specifications are currently being issued. 1875. Mr McCune: I think that you were referring
to the word that schools hate - the "disapplication" that the Department brought
in in relation to Key Stage 4. Mr Holmes will probably want to talk about that.
He has already said that schools found the framework of Key Stage 4 difficult to
work with. One of the measures that the Department of Education has put
in place over the past two years, which they call an experiment, is disapplication. 1876. In
other words, schools can submit programmes to them which must include a work-related
element. I think that is what you are referring to as very successful. They have been. We have a
14 to 19 year old implementation group which has helped us, particularly
with the 16 to 19 Curriculum
2000. Two principals on that group are involved, and they can show results right
down to attendance levels, which have risen over the two years from 64%
to 91% for one pupil. As Mr Holmes mentioned, that has been down to the practice
of spending three days in school, one in the work place and one in the local
college. They are looking at ways to refine it further because they think too
much is being squeezed into the three days in school, but it has been very successful
and motivating. 1877. Mr Beggs: When might it be widened? 1878. Mr McCune: The flexibility we are suggesting
is more for the benefit
of schools, so that they can go on to develop it. Mr Holmes might want to add
something to that, because he has been involved in the evaluation and
he also mentioned the area of careers. 1879. Dr Walker: In passing over to him, let
me just mention the Key Stage 4 proposals in the sense that, at present, that
scheme is operating by disapplication. In other words, you are saying to some
people that they are not now required to do what the law requires them to do
in terms of the curriculum. An exception is being made in their case. What we
hope to do with this is to make it the norm rather than the exception, if this
is what schools want to do. 1880. Mr Holmes: I want to add briefly to what
Mr McCune has quite
rightly said. A number of experiments are ongoing following the issue
of a departmental circular after a recommendation from the CCEA. Quite clearly,
attendance and motivation to work in school generally appears to be improving. I looked at examples
in Derry and Newry and found it significant that a number of pupils said
on their return to school that they must improve their numeracy or they would
not be able to work properly on their next day in the work place. Clearly they
saw the relevance of that because they were in that kind of context. 1881. I
feel I should add a word of caution. In the experimental period, many of the
groups which need that
kind of support are working towards different types of qualifications,
and in some cases towards NVQ units. They find that extremely helpful. As we
review this, the CCEA and the Department will want to make sure that vocational
qualifications are not perceived as being for the disaffected only. The CCEA
plan to investigate the feasibility or necessity of providing a different kind
of occupation-related scheme to meet the need of those pupils to whom you refer,
plus others throughout the school, in the context of Key Stage 4. 1882. You asked about our most
up-to-date information on careers guidance. I have referred to the review group. Before
we look at too many models it is worth looking at the current position. It would
be fair to say that in some people's minds the issue of league or school performance
tables meant that careers work and the like did not have the priority that it
should have had, and we sympathise with that. That was the case in some schools.
We are not making a value judgement about schools or criticising them; that
was simply the reality. With the removal of performance tables it may be
that other priorities like careers will get the prominence they deserve.
However, I have in front of me a report from the DETI on careers work, which
we believe covers some of the issues we have to tackle. I will quote one short
paragraph: "In a significant minority of schools, the teachers who lead the
work of the careers department have specialist qualifications in careers education.
The majority of other teachers involved in supporting the work of the schools
in careers education do not have a specialist qualification." 1883. That
would not be tenable or tolerable in any other subject area. Therefore, we believe
that in the short term there are specific practical issues that can and ought
to be addressed sooner rather than later. That is one area of particular concern
to us. We have also been told that the Training and Employment Agency complement
of careers officers is below the original intended target. I hope that the review will follow
through on
some of those matters, without breaking any confidence about that review. 1884. Taking
a slightly more long-term perspective in terms of our own curriculum review,
we argue that skills of self-management and career-management are an integral
part of that curriculum, right through from primary school to the post-primary
sector. 1885. I
hope that answers your question, Mr Beggs. 1886. The Chairperson: This will have to be
the final question. 1887. Ms McWilliams: I am very supportive of
the general direction in which you are moving. I was interested in comments about the dual system in
Germany being inappropriate because it is too slow to respond to a volatile
labour market. It seems that you are trying to suggest a combination, with occasional academic
subjects running alongside areas that can respond. There is one aspect
that I do not understand because I cannot grasp it as well as the work-related
component. While the other four pieces of the statutory entitlement are very
clear, are you suggesting that they can make up the work-related component by
simply selecting elements from other subjects, or is that an entirely new part
of the curriculum? Moreover, did you give some thought to credit accumulation for this new statutory entitlement? 1888. Mr McCune: At the moment, we set out the
work-related element to cover quite a wide spread. For instance, vocational
GCSEs, if they commend taking the GNVQ model part one as a Key Stage 4 model,
can introduce areas that perhaps have not been able to be taken in the vocational
field before, such as leisure and tourism. Furthermore, they will provide schools
with an opportunity to look at ways in which they can work with colleges or
local industry, in the example I gave of the disapplication. It will be important
for us to link up a corresponding qualification that they could take. 1889. Ms McWilliams: All I am suggesting is
that it is much more difficult to assess how that would work. 1890. Dr Walker: Some pilot work is beginning
in areas of employability. We are looking at what is happening with the so-called
disapplication scheme to see how that type of scheme can be expanded to include
a wider range of pupils. Most pupils currently involved in those projects would
be less able than those in secondary schools. Some of the principals involved
are concerned that that is the case and would prefer it to be much more widely
spread. What we want to do by moving that to the centre of the curriculum,
rather than it being on the periphery or even outside it, is to try to ensure
that that will be the case. 1891. Ms McWilliams: Do you foresee a stage
where pupils will drop a language in order to take up that option? Dropping
a language is allowed, but you say a minority of students take up the option.
However, it could turn out to be a majority of students. You cannot predict
that. 1892. Dr Walker: We cannot, but we have indicated
in the document that we feel that learning a language is very important for
young people at this stage. We are slightly concerned about the degree of success
that many of our young people have in learning languages. That may be down to
the way we approach language learning, or the stage at which it begins. For
that reason, we are about to advertise for someone to work with us on a language learning
project for primary schools. If we begin language learning at that stage
we may make quicker progress, subsequently, making pupils who really do not
want to learn languages, and who are gaining little from it, less of a problem
at Key Stage 4. 1893. Mr McCune: There is no doubt about it.
They are proposals, and consultation tells us that they are areas that will
be raised many times. We have taken pragmatic decisions and Dr Walker's points, on previous funding
and the language-for-all policy for 14 to 16 year olds, are extremely valid. 1894. Mr Holmes: It poses a challenge for schools
and boards of governors to make sure that they provide a total curriculum package
that meets the needs of their pupils. Significant and difficult decisions will
have to be made, which I hope will be based on our advice and advice
from the Department. Looking slightly ahead there could be a scenario where
some young people, taking account of economic circumstances and their own personal
strengths, could easily take two vocational GCSEs alongside English and mathematics.
Certain subjects that we have all held dear, and which we feel ought to be there,
will be squeezed out. 1895. That
is the kind of decision that schools will have to take. The vast majority will
be expected to do a language. There will be questions about subjects such as
history, geography, economics, and those will be the difficult decisions. So,
to answer Mr Carrick, this may guide how we choose to meet the labour market
demands at a particular time. It will dictate the type of curriculum individual
pupils may take. 1896. The Chairperson: Do you see your role
as neutral on subjects that young people are studying, or do you want to adopt
a more directive role? Clearly, there are strong trends against certain subjects
such as mathematics, physics and economics, with other subjects such as business
studies growing in numbers. We could all have opinions on what is happening.
Do you see your role as trying to steer? Have you an ideal pattern of the subjects
being studied? 1897. Dr Walker: We do not have an ideal. We
ask questions when
we see the drift away from mathematics and physics to find out why this
is happening. If we are losing people whom we need to study those subjects,
we want to know if this is a threat to the economy. We need to know the reason,
what it is about these subjects that is turning people off. We are looking at
this and considering what the nature of mathematical education should be. Arguably,
there are those who feel we are teaching too much mathematics. People feel that
what we teach is largely irrelevant, and this is causing the problem rather
than what we are not teaching. 1898. Likewise
with science, there is probably a case for looking at science education and
asking if the way we approach science now is the correct way for science education
in the twenty-first century. We are taking a long view, because this is not
the sort of change we could introduce over the next year or two. The time to
start thinking about these things is now because these issues are being thrown
up by the curriculum review. We do not believe that what is implemented in schools
in 2003 is the end of a process; it is a stage in a process and there will be considerable
work to be done thereafter. 1899. The Chairperson: Thank you very much.
Your presentation
has been very interesting. This is a long-term, ongoing project. This Committee,
or successive Committees in the future, will re-examine these issues.
We wish you well
with the ongoing review and consultation on the curriculum. 1900. Dr Walker: Thank you for the opportunity
to attend. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 22 February 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mrs Carson Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mr Dallat Mr Hay Mr R Hutchinson Mr J Kelly Witnesses: Ms C Phillips
) Bombardier Aerospace, Mr H McGonigle
) Shorts 1901. The Chairperson: Good afternoon. I welcome
you to our evidence session relating to our inquiry into education and training
for industry. Thank you for your notes. I invite you to begin with a short presentation,
and we will then ask you some questions. 1902. Ms Phillips: Thank you for the opportunity
to meet the Committee. We both come from the training side of Bombardier Aerospace,
Shorts. We have prepared a document for you. The first page sets out the contents,
and I will talk you through those in case we do not have time to go through the
entire document. We can then return to the document as we consider your questions. 1903. We
want to set the scene for you in relation to Bombardier. Shorts is now owned
by Bombardier, which
is a global organisation. The document covers Bombardier's presence in Northern
Ireland with Shorts. It then moves to this year's recruitment statistics
and the difficulties experienced this year in recruiting. We took on some 1,400
people in the last 12 months, and we have had to face various issues such as
dropout rates and
failure at interviews and tests. We will then cover our links with education
and development through our relationships with the universities and colleges
of further and higher education. We will then raise some issues relating to
the field of equal opportunities, and make some recommendations that we feel
will be of help to the Committee. 1904. If
members want me to cover any specific issues in my introduction I will do so.
Perhaps you want me to go straight to the recommendations? 1905. The Chairperson: We are happy for you
to take us through the document. 1906. Ms Phillips: We have used bullet points rather than a
lot of text. If you want to ask a question just stop me. 1907. Bombardier
is an international organisation, a global company. Bombardier's fields of activity
are in aerospace
(the biggest sector of the business), transportation, recreation, capital
and international aspects. The transportation side deals mostly with rail carriages;
aerospace covers business and regional aircraft; and the recreational element
is in skidoos and "seadoos" - boats and snow equipment. The capital side involves
investment, and the international side is about a global approach to sales and
marketing. The revenue for the whole corporation is 13·6 billion Canadian dollars.
It is a very substantial company. 1908. In
business terms, we rank number one in most of the markets we operate in. These are regional aircraft,
business aircraft, amphibious aircraft, rail passenger cars and personal
watercraft. It has always been our objective to rank number one. 1909. In
the aerospace section there are 38,000 employees. Overall, Bombardier has approximately 56,000
employees. There are four main manufacturing sites: Shorts in Belfast with approximately
7,000 people, Canadair in Montreal, De Haviland in Toronto and Lear Jet
in Wichita in Kansas. The other three sites are in North America and the fourth
is in Northern Ireland. Bombardier is the third largest civil aircraft manufacturer
in the world
and we concentrate on design, manufacture and build of aircraft. The company has grown considerably
over the years. Bombardier has owned Shorts since 1989. It has an annual compounded
growth of 21% with revenues in aerospace of £8.1 billion. We have a healthy
order book with a backlog of 1,000 aircraft orders (including options)
at the moment, which represents 19 billion Canadian dollars. This is why we
have had to do so much recruitment this year. It is a busy industry at the moment. 1910. I
will take you through the figures for Shorts and explain to you a little bit about the issues we have
there. 1911. The Bombardier philosophy
over the last few years has been to introduce one new aircraft programme
each year. Listed
on the second and third pages of the document before you, you will see the different aircraft
programmes we are involved in. Those are a combination of regional aircraft and business jets.
Our market share for business aircraft is 20% internationally, and 46%
for regional aircraft. In 1999-2000, 292 aircraft were delivered, just one less
than Airbus, and at the end of the current year 365 completed aircraft will
have been delivered by Bombardier. There has been substantial growth. 1912. Although
Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts in Northern Ireland is a manufacturing centre for
Bombardier, we do not deliver any aircraft, but are involved in eight of their
programmes, which make us crucial to the business. Sixty per cent of our workload
in Belfast is on Bombardier products. At the Belfast site our main activities
and centres of excellence are in fuselage assembly; nacelles; the Lear 45, the
biggest component we manufacture; the Belfast City Airport; and our manufacturing processes,
in particular, composite manufacturing. We have five manufacturing sites
in the Belfast area:
Queen's Island at Airport Road; Hallmark in Newtownards; and the Crossgar,
Newtownabbey and Dunmurry plants. 1913. You have before you a breakdown
of our employees. You can see that the majority of our employees are
in the operations
sector; there are over 5,000 employees there. Two-thirds of those employees
are skilled and an approximate ratio of one-third is semi-skilled. That is where
the major recruitment activity was last year. 1914. You
will also note the details of our engineering structure, finance, human resources,
procurement, programme contracts and quality. Substantial investment has been
made in technology by Bombardier; as you can see in the brief, around £900 million
has been invested. Our technology is state-of-the-art. 1915. Bombardier's
priorities are driven by bottom-line values; the company needs to see results
and wants shareholder
value. Our priorities and processes are tightly governed. Some of the priorities
have been to successfully manage the major expansion in the business, to implement
the new programmes and to increase production rates. This year alone we have
had a production rate increase of the RJ aircraft, which means that we
have worked at a move rate of one barrel every one and a half days. There are
three fuselages for one aircraft programme going out of Shorts every week. That
is a big increase for us and that is only one programme. 1916. The CRJ 700 and 900 regional
aircraft programmes are both in the growth market. The Continental is
the newest addition to our business aircraft. We want to manage the continuation of
a large investment programme and of our factory reorganisation. We aim
to increase employment by 20%, and have already done that in the past year.
We also want to increase our procurement in the island of Ireland to £500 million
in the next few years, and to reduce costs on all contracts. 1917. Our
standards of excellence are demonstrated in the awards that Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts received
last year. Last year it received the manufacturer of the year award,
MX 2000 Manufacturing Excellence, and retained its Investor in People (IIP)
award. Bombardier Aerospace,
Shorts has 10 national and 23 regional training awards, so it does a
lot of work in training and development. 1918. Bombardier
Aerospace, Shorts is consistently profitable with a growing turnover and new
product lines. In 1989 it produced 360s and 330s, but they have all been replaced
by new products in the factory. 1919. Bombardier
Aerospace, Shorts is probably one of the best-equipped factories in Bombardier Aerospace and its
IT systems are amongst its best. Its business processes are also very much aligned
to Bombardier Aerospace. It has remained internationally competitive despite
the current adverse exchange rates and it is continually undergoing major expansion. 1920. One
cannot overestimate the growth that there has been this year and the challenges that that has given
us with regard to
bringing people in, training them, getting them online and producing
work to schedule. 1921. Last
February there was a recruitment fair. We received 15,000 requests for application
forms and 9,000 of them were returned. We had about 15 additional temporary
staff on a full-time basis for about six months to help with that exercise.
We carried out 5,700 tests and interviewed over 4,000 people and that resulted
in 1,400 new starts. Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts is continuing to recruit. It expects to
be advertising again in the middle of March for an apprenticeship intake
and also to meet our skilled intake requirement. 1922. The
company has also appointed 186 people through internal promotions. 1923. The
next chart shows a breakdown of part of the recruitment exercise for last year.
It gives an indication of the process followed by people who apply to the company.
I have not detailed every function that was advertised or included last year
on your document, but the first column on the left shows that from the 8,500
people who applied to the company, 4,395 did not get in. Some of those people
were withdrawn through interview, a failed medical or test or decided that they
were no longer interested. That is a very high dropout rate, but again, to give
you an indication of how it is spread across the company, I have broken that
down into the main areas of skilled, semi-skilled, process operators, stores,
work material planning, procurement and apprenticeship. 1924. Most
of you probably know about Interpoint. It is at the Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts learning campus
in Belfast city centre at York Street, but we also have established partnerships
with Queen's University and the University of Ulster. Those partnerships were mainly
established through the Integrated Graduate Development Scheme (IGDS)
which has been running for a number of years. Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts also
has a partnership on that type of programme with the University of Warwick. 1925. Representatives
from Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts also sit on the industrial advisory board
for the engineering faculty at Queen's University, and it has a partnership
with Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education (BIFHE). Those partnerships
are mainly concerned with apprenticeship training but we also do a lot of manufacturing
and engineering programmes with them. 1926. Bombardier
Aerospace, Shorts also sponsors the aeronautical chair at Queen's University
and has representatives who sit on the board of the sectoral training council,
the Engineering Training Council (ETC), which is located at Interpoint and runs its own modern
apprenticeship programme there. Some of you also know that Bombardier Aerospace,
Shorts has a fully equipped skills centre at Interpoint. Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts
usually takes
in approximately 40 apprentices each year and we hope to increase that
to 55 this year. It also runs a scheme on behalf of the Training and Employment
Agency which brings in 10 additional apprentices. 1927. Bombardier
Aerospace, Shorts runs apprenticeship training for other external organisations
and it also runs an in-house adult apprenticeship programme. Therefore people who
have come through the organisation as semi-skilled can train for three
years for an NVQ and become skilled. 1928. Bombardier
Aerospace, Shorts set up the flight experience display at the Ulster Folk and
Transport Museum.
It is working on the development of a CD-ROM for schools that will be
linked to the curriculum. Teachers and the BBC are also involved in developing
the CD-ROM. It will be integrated into the curriculum but will concentrate mainly
on science, technology and business studies. These are some of Bombardier Aerospace,
Shorts' efforts to get into the education system and influence the education
of young people who might come in to the company. 1929. We
are also working on a career window web site. We have been asked to participate
in this initiative as a pilot exercise. We carry out a lot of work on careers
conventions and work experience. We target particular schools to try to build
up a relationship with them and to encourage them to take on projects with us.
We continually work hard on equal opportunities, but we do not always see the
benefits from that. We try very hard to recruit from all sectors of the community
but we have great difficulty attracting females and Roman Catholics into the
company. We have set up initiatives with the Training and Employment Agency
through the Bridge to Employment programme and the Job Wise programme to try
to address that, and we actively encourage all sectors to apply. We also work
hard on community relationships through education and through business initiatives.
However, we would appreciate some additional help on that. 1930. I
have split the recommendations into careers guidance and advice. We have experienced a significant
drop off in the number of people who apply for the apprenticeship programme.
One reason for that is because many children are being encouraged to stay on
at school, and they no longer see engineering as an attractive option. Parents
and schools are strongly encouraging young people to stay on at school. Careful
consideration should be given to the quality of careers advice given to young
people in secondary education. They should be strongly encouraged to look at
all the potential options and the resulting benefits. There is a lot of competition
out there, particularly on the GNVQ side. A lot of young people go into sectors
such as leisure and tourism. However, those industries may not provide a long-term
career for them, and we question the benefits to them as individuals, to industry
and to the country in general. 1931. The
engineering sector is growing substantially and we cannot get the people that
we need. Young people's expectations and career aspirations have been less evident
in recent years. The transfer of skills and job changes appear to be an attractive but at times
short-term option. Sometimes young people choose something without thinking
about the long-term implications. The concepts of challenge, change, growth,
development and ambition need to be instilled at an early age. 1932. In
our own modern apprenticeship scheme 95% to 100% of our trainees will complete their apprenticeship,
but statistics show that only 12% of young people who enter a modern engineering
apprenticeship can complete it to NVQ level 3. Only 36 people
out of 300 come out with
an apprenticeship! The Engineering Training Council is trying to address
that at the moment. 1933. Very few females are encouraged
to come through a modern apprenticeship programme in engineering. We
get about five applicants and only one or two women come through each year.
We would like to attract more females into that area. If they begin an apprenticeship
with us they will not have to stay on it; they may get other opportunities in
the company later. To train with a company such as Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts
and to go into a
technical route would clearly be an advantage. 1934. The
gap in education provision and industry requirements has substantially widened. The correlation
between education content and industry requirements is not as good. There is
a greater need for teachers to work closer with industry in order to ensure
that education connects to our standards. We also feel that the standard of core basic engineering skills has
dropped. Over
the past year we have supported additional education for our apprentices
in the areas of science and mathematics. They cannot relate to what they are
learning, and find it very difficult to learn in college. Bombardier Aerospace,
Shorts has had to support that a little. Young people need a strong foundation
to build upon so
that new technology solutions can be understood and applied. The basic skills
are still absolutely essential even though technology is moving on. 1935. We
did a mathematics project recently in partnership with the Belfast Institute
of Further and Higher Education. This is an example of good practice; it was
very successful and it would be advantageous to replicate this in other areas.
Some students were struggling with their results. The college expected a failure
rate but we didn't expect people to fail. We wanted them to succeed and decided
to do whatever we could to help them. 1936. We
had to work very hard to encourage the college to be part of this. However,
they did come on board and we have had very good results. We reviewed the assignments
and introduced new ones that were more relevant to the company and which included
design manufacture and CNC. 1937. The
lecturer, who was female, reviewed the syllabus and mapped every subject back to the National
Vocational Qualification (NVQ). We received every possible piece of information
on the syllabus that we could apply to the work that the students did in the
company. They incorporated new projects into the syllabus and we had a 100%
success rate. The students now enjoy and understand the course much more. This
is a very good working example for us. 1938. Our
experience of basic engineering and core skills training initiatives for employees
in declining industries in preparation for employment has been through the Bridge
to Employment scheme. We have had to give a lot of foundation training to people
coming into Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts, even if they have come from Harland and Wolff.
There is quite a difference between the engineering skills required in our industries
and those needed in other industries. 1939. We
need to increase the efforts being made to attract under-represented groups
into the industry. We would benefit from the influence of this sort of group.
We need to work with schools and community bodies to encourage people to join
this type of industry. 1940. The Chairperson: That was an extremely helpful report that
was packed with specific examples, some of which were very thought provoking
and will feature in the questions and discussion that follow. 1941. Mr J Kelly: You are clustered in Greater Belfast, mostly
in east Belfast. Is there a logistical reason why you cannot move beyond there
to a rural area, for example?
Why is it difficult to attract non-traditional applicants, such as people from
the Catholic community? Is there something you can do to encourage people
from the Nationalist
or Catholic communities to join those industries? Are there certain skills
which are developed most effectively in the workplace, and others that should
always be taught in an educational institute? Can you marry the two things by
giving someone educational experience followed by work experience? 1942. Ms Phillips: Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts
is the oldest aircraft manufacturer in the world and we have been based off
Queen's Island since 1938, I think. We have plants in Newtownards and Dunmurry
and we have invested a lot of money in the Dunmurry plant over the past year.
We joined the two plants at that site together with a tunnel and we now manufacture in
there. We have increased our work packages and manpower in Dunmurry. Those measures
have been part of our effort to attract more people from that part of
the community to apply for work. 1943. The other plants are already
well established, but in Dunmurry we are very focused on our investment
in attracting and providing options for those people. We have various equal opportunity
initiatives, one of which focuses on how to advertise for staff for the company.
We now advertise locally in five papers: the "Belfast Telegraph", the "News
Letter", the "Irish News", the "Andersonstown News" and the "Lisburn Star". 1944. We
have broadened our reach as regards trying to attract people, and when we are considering recruitment,
we work with the T&EA and community organisations in the area. 1945. We are also running a Bridge
to Employment programme, which has brought in about 300 people over the last
few years. Typically in that event we invite community representatives
to the company and give them an overview of the type of work involved, providing
them with as much information as possible assisted by the T&EA. Our
Newtownabbey and Dunmurry plants comprise unskilled work, process operator type
work, and are prime locations for attracting females and Catholics into the
business. We are working hard to attract more people to the company. 1946. Mr J Kelly: Is there a chill factor that discourages Catholics
from joining the company? 1947. Ms Phillips: It is perceived that we are
an east Belfast company and have traditionally not had a high representation
of Catholics. Therefore, Catholics are reluctant to apply for jobs. From our
visits to schools, we
know that there is also a limited amount of knowledge in some areas about
the type of business and industry we are involved in. In one school, the children
had not heard about Shorts and did not know that we were there. There is a need for
better education and increased awareness. We really do want to encourage more
people to join the company. 1948. Mr J Kelly: I appreciate that. 1949. Mr McGonigle: Some bridge building does take place when
people come into the company, particularly among young people. Those of the
same persuasion tend to remain in their own corners, and it is only through
outward-bound activities, working with them in teams, and trying to get them
to relate to each other, that barriers are broken. It is very satisfying to
see people become firm friends as the year progresses. 1950. Mr J Kelly: Should skills be acquired
at an educational institution or in the workplace? How can these be married
together? 1951. Mr McGonigle: Many years ago, there were
technical schools. Our company requires many of the traditional skills such as
fitting and sheet metal working. However, nowadays, young people come
to us with very little experience of materials, or of the skills we need. They
are starting from a very basic level. 1952. Additionally,
we are not getting the same numbers nowadays. A few years ago, we would have
had more than 1,000 people
applying for apprenticeships. Today it might be around 400. However,
when you look at the overall figures you find that 42% go into higher education
and 37% go into further education. We are getting part of the remainder. 1953. We
know that skills are missing because we carry out the Saville and Holdsworth
test for all the young people we take on and we see skills decreasing every
year, particularly in mathematics. We reckon that if we carried out the test
for another 20 years we would find that young people then would have no mathematical
skills at all. 1954. Mr Byrne: You are bringing us a good news
story. It is wonderful that the company is employing so many people and is expanding
its workforce so energetically. 1955. First, your in-house training
scheme for apprentices seems to be very successful. Obviously, the worrying
aspect for us is that 300 people join modern apprenticeships and only 36 come
out. Why do you think your scheme is so successful? 1956. Secondly,
your relationship with BIFHE seems to be company-led, and that seems to be beneficial
to you. Why do you
think that arrangement is working? Have you any plans to go to other
further education colleges? 1957. Thirdly, as regards schools
recruitment and careers advice, do you visit schools across Northern
Ireland or only those in the Belfast area? 1958. Mr McGonigle : One of the big problems
in apprenticeships is funding. We commit to the young people when we take them
on board. There is funding for the first year with some providers, and then
a company has to take them on board. As part of the modern apprenticeship they
have to be employed in their second and third year, and this is where there
is a quite a loss. They are in training for the first year with a provider and
with a company three or four days a week. Sometimes that company does not take
them on. There is a possibility that they might come through with another group
of people. 1959. Another
reason is that we work at it, keeping them together for the first year. We mentor
them, coach them, tutor them and bring them along. It is not just craft type
things; we talk to them about life, and about teamwork. We do six sigma and
quality projects to
keep their interest. We also encourage them with help in their studies. They
see a good future with Shorts. 1960. Mr Byrne: Is it a three-year MA they do with you? 1961. Mr McGonigle: It is a three-year MA. 1962. Mr Byrne: Is the training for year two
and three company funded? 1963. Mr McGonigle: That is correct. 1964. Mr Byrne: How many apprentices normally
stay on with you? 1965. Mr McGonigle: All of them stay. 1966. Ms Phillips: A number of those apprentices have moved
into senior positions. Some of our very senior management have been apprentices
in the company. The opportunities there are great. 1967. Mr Dallat: You referred to integrating your workforce. It
is widely recognised that you have strived to do that, and that should
be encouraged by everyone. The spin-off for the wider community is enormous.
You certainly have my full support. 1968. A
lot of people apply for your jobs but a horrendous number fail before the interview
stage. My specialist interest is adult literacy and numeracy. I am interested
in this innovative partnership with BIFHE. Have you unlocked a door that education
has failed to do in encouraging young people to acquire basic skills that they
failed to get in the education system? Have you any advice for people like myself
who survived the system for 30 years, but did not quite achieve that breakthrough. 1969. Ms Phillips: We found an expectation that
there will be a certain
amount of failure, which is unacceptable from an industry point of view.
For every investment we make in developing people, we want to make sure they
can transfer the knowledge. We have to work very hard to transfer their learning
into being able to apply the skills, not just at an apprentice level but at
higher levels as well. 1970. We are highly involved in
the steering committee for the Integrated Graduate Development Scheme.
We are ensuring that
the content is applicable to the industry. There is still room for improvement
in education. 1971. Mr Dallat: You are an international company
but you give me the impression that you are very much a family business - for
example, the way you allow your employees to progress through the system, and
your special reference to girls coming in at one level and progressing. How
do you achieve that? 1972. Ms Phillips: We are an international company.
At present we have
over 70 staff on assignment throughout Bombardier, including many senior
people. The only way to get people into the organisation is to recruit them at a lower level and develop
them. They get promoted and move up. We do tend to move people across
the organisation quite substantially. We contribute the largest amount of talent
to the rest of Bombardier Aerospace, more than the other three sites. The same
transfer of knowledge
does not come our way. Staff have an opportunity to relocate themselves and
their family for two or three years, taking their skills and experience away
with them, and we guarantee them relocation back at Shorts. 1973. Mr Beggs: I commend you for your work
with BIFHE and on the ONC in aeronautical engineering. Have lessons learnt, particularly in relation to
the teaching of mathematics, been passed on to the Department of Education
and CCEA? You highlighted that as an area of weakness in all your applicants. 1974. You said that only 12% of
young people embarking on an apprenticeship actually reach NVQ level 3. Is that a Northern Ireland
wide figure? Why is it so low? What specific areas of improvement do you want?
You talked about better governance but can you be more specific, so that
we can understand what you are referring to? 1975. Finally,
I note from the statistics that the most common reason for rejecting applicants
was failure at the test stage - 1,234 were rejected. What type of test is it?
Why are people not achieving the basic skills that you consider are necessary
for them to undertake a semi-skilled job with your company? 1976. Ms Phillips: We use Saville and Holdsworth
tests because they are most relevant to the types of jobs that the operators
do. Over 4,000 people applied for the process operator positions. We had to
be selective about the number of people who would be interviewed. Those 1,200
people had the lowest test scores. After they were taken out, 50% of the semi-skilled people
were still in the pool. We use the tests for that particular group in
order to reduce the numbers involved. 1977. We
pay some more attention to the tests for apprentices, because there is a high
dropout rate there. However, the situation with the process operators is just
to do with volume. 1978. Mr Beggs: Are you still getting the type
of employees that you need? 1979. Ms Philips: Yes, we are still getting
employees on the process side of things. We are more concerned about skilled
positions and apprentices. 1980. I am not sure that we can
influence the governance of the modern apprenticeship. The colleges should
give some commitment to those people undertaking the apprenticeship programme
to see them beyond level 2. We find that many people achieve level 2 but do not reach level 3, which
is outside our apprenticeship programme. 1981. Mr McGonigle: Many colleges take the modern
apprenticeship on board. They can run courses up to NVQ level 2, but the big
problem is that the students must be employed after that. Employers are not
picking them up, or there is an abundance of people at that level. 1982. Mr Beggs: Is 12% a Northern Ireland wide figure? 1983. McGonigle: Yes, it is. 1984. On
the question of the mathematics project, we believe that we have a role model.
We know lecturers are very busy and do not have much spare time. They are measured
by the number of people in their class, but our project happens outside the
classroom. We got somebody to come into the company, almost on a daily basis,
to work on this, to look and help us understand what we were doing. They sat
down with us and devised assignments relative to our business. This was
then mapped against the curriculum and the NVQ. That made it much more interesting
for the kids, and the lecturers learned a great deal too. 1985. The
problem was that the lady lecturer did this in her own time because she had
her own classes to do as well. We had hoped to convince the colleges to allow
the lecturers time, outside of their teaching duties, to come in and get involved
in this. As far as we are concerned, many of the things they do are not relative
to the business world and are out of date. 1986. We
took these to the Institute of Mathematics and Applied Mathematics. People from
all over the world, including professors, accepted this and thought it was a
brilliant role model. We thought we were out of place because they were nearly
all from university, but
they were very pleased. It actually was in the institute's magazine. We need
to be able to take lecturers into industry so they can understand what is going
on. They need to be free to come and go, interacting with our own training
people as the classes are held in the company. The lady concerned knew as much
about what we were doing, during
her time with us, as we knew. 1987. Mr Beggs: Have the lessons been passed
to the CCEA and the Department of Education? 1988. Mr McGonigle: We have not passed it. Belfast
Institute of Further and Higher Education may have passed it but I do not know. 1989. The Chairperson: Mr Beggs may be getting
at the issue that there is a general problem of fewer and fewer people studying mathematics
and physics at GCSE and A Level. There may even be issues on standards at
those stages. You have referred to that. As a company using mathematics, physics
and scientific skills, what do you think could be done to the Northern Ireland
school curriculum, which is currently up for review? 1990. Mr McGonigle: If we could influence, or
help in any way, we would be delighted to do so. Young people find mathematics,
science, physics and those types of subjects really difficult. We are probably getting people
at the lower end of the GCSE scale because the others are going on to further
and higher education. 1991. Ms Phillips: You really need to have the teachers connecting
with industry. You need that partnership and the time for that. I think that
is the key. 1992. Mr Carrick: The contribution your firm
makes towards the economic and social development of our country is very much
appreciated and valued. 1993. This
whole question of education, training and industry is vitally important to this
Committee. In your recommendations you have identified, "gaps in the curriculum"
which we have been touching on. You have identified gaps in careers advice and
clear gaps in the core basic engineering skills. Bearing that in mind, how responsive
is the current education and training system to skills gaps identified in the
engineering sector? What should the education and training system be offering
to ensure that your particular demand for skills would be met in the immediate
and more distant future? In your opinion, what method of skills-forecasting
is the most successful? Finally, what are your views on the current graduate
skills in relation to the needs of your industry and how best would they be
altered to address your needs? 1994. Ms Phillips: Regarding responsiveness,
it took a lot of encouraging to get the teachers onboard. We almost got to the
wire and said "we would prefer to change college to be quite honest with you".
However, we did not give in. We had another alternative but we thought, "No,
we are going to persevere with this". It took a bit of time but they did come
through, but it was hard work. We spent a lot of time arguing, auditing and
providing feedback to them
about the quality and service they were providing - an example was sometimes teachers
not turning up for classes and things like that. So, we got through all of that,
they came round and this is the result. The result in that one sector was first class
for us. 1995. Mr Carrick: Are they now a willing partner,
or are they still being dragged screaming and kicking? 1996. Mr McGonigle: It is half-and-half. With mathematics,
and that type of project where you get integration, participation and partnership,
that is fine and we are delighted. But looking at the lecturers on the industrial side,
the problem is when those gentlemen and ladies go back into classes after
leaving us. These people have a bit of a break but are soon back down to business
in their own classes. 1997. We
had been very close to some of them, because some were in our business, but
when they go back to lecturing they have no time because they are working on
other things and getting involved in other projects. Our project is the least
of their concerns because they have a different focus. 1998. Mr Carrick: There is a weakness in the structure. 1999. Mr McGonigle: Yes there is. 2000. Ms Phillips: There are different targets.
They have targets
to achieve, which are education targets and not necessarily education and transfer of knowledge
targets and that is the problem. 2001. The
skills forecasting is a good question. It is difficult enough for us to manpower plan for 12 months
ahead. On the skill
side, the best approach is to continue to work on the basic skills. We
bring people in at a basic
level and can develop them - most organisations do. But if they do not
have that strong foundation, it is very hard to instil that into people when
they come in at an older age. 2002. Mr McGonigle: We now have to take retired
people in to help us, people who are ex-Government training centre instructors.
We have been running a nightshift, training people on the nightshift as well
as on the dayshift. However, there are no trainers around. Colleges will say
"it will take us six months to get this going" or "we do not do that anymore".
I am talking here about the colleges, that have taken over the GTCs. There are
just no people there anymore. We have used 7 or 8 former GTC instructors, who
had long since retired, to try and get the skills again. We will have problems
when these people decide they are not going to do this any longer. 2003. The Chairperson: Can you clarify that?
These people were instructors in training centres and are on your workforce
now because you cannot get other people by the normal means. 2004. Mr McGonigle: We have seven instructors
of our own and we
are not going to employ new instructors because we can cope in normal
circumstances. In the past, when we got a huge intake like now, we looked to
the GTCs and the Training and Employment Agency, but we cannot do that any more.
You go along to the technical colleges, Newtownabbey, for instance and find
they do not do engineering any more. Dundonald GTC is no longer available and
Felden is not doing anything in engineering any more. We have not gone to Craigavon
because it is a bit far away from us. We then start to look for instructors. We find that
the only way the T&EA can help is to give names of people who have
retired and help us recruit those people. 2005. Mr Carrick: I would invite you down to
Craigavon. It is only 30 miles down the motorway. 2006. Ms Phillips: The cost of that service
has substantially
increased since the Government training centres have closed. The difference
in the cost is incredible. Where we would bring people in-house to do it, other
companies would not be able to afford that cost. 2007. Mr Carrick; The other issue is the graduate
skills. What are your views, and how best can they be altered, if necessary,
to address your needs? 2008. Ms Phillips: This year we shall be bringing
in 35 to 40 graduates.
We have just completed our advertisement, and will be ready to interview
in about four weeks. The difference with graduates now is that they are spread
across the organisation. They are not solely engineering graduates, but business
graduates too. 2009. Our
difficulty with graduates is that the IT industry is so attractive. They pay
much more than we do to bring graduates in. Many IT companies go into the university
and take the whole class, thinking they are sorted. That is another example of people not
thinking in the longer term. On the graduate side, we are probably not
the most attractive employer, but we shall bring in 30 to 40 graduates this year. I am not sure how
to answer the
question of improving the skills of the graduate intake. 2010. Mr McGonigle: In the past we took in mainly
engineering graduates, taking a mixture from Queen's and the University of Ulster
roughly in equal numbers. The graduates of both universities were of a very
high standard and we did not have any complaints. Having said that, we probably
felt we were not as close to the universities as we would have liked. There was perhaps
not enough industrial involvement between ourselves and the university. Probably
neither of us knew where the graduates were going. 2011. Along with Queen's and the
University of Ulster at Jordanstown we started the Integrated Graduate
Development Scheme (MSc)
in Northern Ireland, which is a model from Warwick University. We make an input
into all the subject matter. Once a year an advisory board meets in Queen's
University and we contribute to that, but there is not the integration we would
like. 2012. Mr Carrick: Has that supply diminished? Are you
taking 35 because that is all you need, or can you not get the engineering graduates? 2013. Ms Phillips: That is all we need, and not
many of those will be engineering graduates. There will be a mixture. 2014. Mr McGonigle: A number of years ago we
brought in hundreds at a time, but we have got to a point now where we have eased back. The same numbers
are no longer required in those functions. 2015. Mrs Carson: I was delighted to hear your
presentation today. It was a breath of fresh air to learn that you have a full
order book and that your problem is needing people but being unable to get them.
The message has come through quite clearly today that something is failing in
the education system. 2016. I
was very impressed with the example you gave of the BIFHE grouping. The thing
that vexed me was the acceptance of failure on the part of the people and staff you were dealing with
in the educational establishment. They were quite prepared for failure,
and that represents something radically wrong in the teaching profession. Teachers should
go for achievement and not accept failure. If you accept failure, you will get
failure. 2017. I
was also interested in the number of women. You are having a problem bringing
in women. Do you have women in the senior ranks going out to girls' schools
and girls' classes in mixed schools? Would targeting girls on their own achieve
anything? 2018. Having
visits to your factory site for a fun day, even at primary-school level, would
mean you are achieving something people can see. If you bring children from
primary school, never mind secondary school, they are aware from an early age.
Are you doing anything like that, perhaps through families? 2019. Ms Phillips: On the family side, we have
a full exhibition at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum open to all, so anyone
who visits the transport side of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum will see
the flight experience. It tells you all about Bombardier Aerospace and Shorts
and all the roles in the company. There are various examples of engineering in the display. 2020. The
CD-ROM is going to all of the schools. There is high teacher input into that
CD-ROM, which is
about careers in this industry. The career window work that we are doing with
career web is another thing that is going to be open to all students
and parents because it will be on the Internet. 2021. We
do not specifically visit girls' schools. We do a lot of school visits and careers
talks, but this may be something we could take away and pay more attention to. It is
very hard. We had a couple of functions with a good female representation, but
overall there is only a 10% female representation in the company. We could do
something more ourselves on that front. 2022. Mrs Carson: You should try to encourage pro- active work. If
you sent out a smartly dressed woman into the school to give a careers
advice talk, you might be surprised at the response. 2023. Mr McGonigle: We talked to the Engineering
Training Council about this. When we got one or two young ladies in as apprentices
they were in the minority, particularly when they went down to the factory
floor where there are 3,000 or 4,000 men. 2024. We
thought that perhaps the T&EA, the Engineering Training Council and ourselves
could do something to get a group through at the one time. They could be self-supporting,
supporting each other rather than one young lady there on her own. 2025. The Chairperson: You have talked very well on issues at apprenticeship
level and issues relating to graduates. What about the in between level - the sub-degree level, technicians,
HNDs or foundation degrees? Is there a gap in supply at that level? How
do you feel about
your intake at that level, both in terms of quantity and quality? 2026. Mr McGonigle: We take the HND as equivalent to a pass
degree, and count all as graduates. In our apprenticeship scheme we encourage
apprentices to do their HND and, if they are capable, to go on and get a degree.
If they get a degree, we again encourage them to get a Master's degree. 2027. Carol
mentioned the adult apprenticeship, and people who are semi-skilled can become
skilled. They can also go to college and end up with a degree or Master's degree
also. People on the shop floor, and people who have come through as apprentices,
a lot of them are
now in very senior positions within the company. There are bridges the
whole way through. 2028. Ms Phillips: One of the areas that we
have had some experience in is external recruitment, particularly in the professional
functions like procurement. We had great difficulty in getting people, after
interview, with the experience and knowledge of procurement policies and how
to negotiate. We have some examples of that in finance, and work and
material planning is a function/ department within the company. There
has been so much
investment and technology has moved on in every part of the company, it is very hard to get people
with the experience. We have had to do a lot of re-training in-house,
and bring in people at a different level and train them up. 2029. The Chairperson: I get the impression
that Bombardier Aerospace,
Shorts could expand more rapidly if they could recruit more people. Are
you constrained by the supply of available labour at those particular skill
levels, particularly apprenticeship level? 2030. Ms Phillips: The constraint is the speed
with which they get
to a level of productivity that is required. I would not like to say
that we would take in a lot more people if they were there. However, we would
move faster and better if the people we were getting were better. We have to spend
a lot more time on learning curves, bringing people up to speed on the training
front. 2031. The Chairperson: That has been immensely
helpful. Thank you both very much for coming and giving your valuable time.
We appreciate what you have said and will study the handouts and figures closely. We wish
you well in the future and hope that your business thrives. 2032. Ms Phillips: Thank you very much. 2033. Mr Byrne: May I make one point before
Ms Phillips and Mr McGonigle go? This has been one of the most interesting sessions
relating to training and skills needs. It would be good if this Committee could
go and visit their training facility, to see how it is done on the ground. 2034. Mr McGonigle: We would be absolutely delighted. 2035. Mr Carrick: That would be a useful exercise. 2036. Mrs Carson: Mr McGonigle said that they
did not give their findings about the problems they were having with the college.
It might be worthwhile if they could formulate something and forward it to the
Department, or ourselves,
to get it into the wider domain. 2037. Mr McGonigle: I agree with you entirely.
I think Kevin Chambers, the Dean of Technology at the Belfast Institute of Further
and Higher Education, has sent a report in. We could certainly follow it up. 2038. The Chairperson: Thank you very much. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 1 March 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mrs Carson Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mr Hay Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Ms J Gormley ) Qualifications
and Mr J Lavery ) Curriculum
Authority 2039. The Chairperson: I welcome you on behalf
of the Higher and
Further Education, Training and Employment Committee. Thank you for coming.
We want to hear more about the work of the Qualifications and Curriculum
Authority (QCA). This is part of our inquiry on how the training system works,
or perhaps does not work, here in Northern Ireland, as regards industrial and
economic development. We apologise for running a bit late. We were dealing with
the Executive programme fund bids, which are an area of great interest. 2040. Ms Gormley: Thank you very much. I will
give a brief introduction. For our purposes, and I hope for yours too, it might
be helpful to start with a brief explanation of how the Qualifications and Curriculum
Authority (QCA) came to operate in Northern Ireland. 2041. Prior
to the Education Act 1997, the National Council for Vocational Qualifications
(NCVQ) was responsible
for the development of a vocational qualification framework and for
the occupational standards upon which those qualifications were based. In 1996,
the NCVQ had already established
a number of regional offices throughout England and Wales, in order to
help, advise and
promote the whole concept of vocational qualifications on a regional
basis. In 1996, it was agreed with the Training and Employment Agency that the
time was right to establish a similar regional facility in Northern Ireland.
The current QCA team is originated from the NCVQ team. 2042. Initially,
we were responsible for advising on and promoting National Vocational Qualifications (NVQs)
in Northern Ireland and for providing quality assurance in respect of those
qualifications. The Education Act changed things for us, although we had a relatively
easy transition in Northern Ireland because our focus remained
on NVQs. However, we now had the additional statutory regulatory responsibility, and our work
moved from a promoting role to a regulation auditing and policing one. 2043. Our
main area of work is quality assurance. Mr Lavery is part of our quality audit
team and we will take questions about the monitoring of NVQs and the handling
of complaints about the system. We also provide guidance, advice and support
to employers in Northern Ireland, and we provide information and customer services. 2044. We also provide a watching
brief on the development of national occupational standards, on which
qualifications are based. We scrutinise each project on the development of occupational
standards to ensure that the Northern Ireland dimension has been considered and to ensure
that relevant parties in Northern Ireland have been informed. 2045. Over
the past five years, we have provided advice to Government and other bodies
on all matters concerning NVQs and key skills and how they relate to work-based
training and qualifications. We have also provided advice on other vocational
qualifications and on a number of initiatives such as the childcare training
strategy, the qualifications aspect of New Deal and other Government-funded programmes. We have helped
to devise a funding formula for key skills and other qualifications and
provided advice on unitisation and credit matters, working closely with the
Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation and Transfer System. 2046. We have also held a series
of consultation events, at which we meet employers, training providers
and users. We hear their views on the NVQ system, which allows us to address
the issues raised and ensure that Northern Ireland's interests are considered
nationally. 2047. We
also regularly produce reports and other relevant guidance material, especially
for the Northern Ireland audience. I draw your attention to the pack that we
have brought with us today. It is a series of case study materials, giving advice and guidance to
employers implementing NVQs. We work with other regulatory bodies, including
the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment in Northern Ireland,
regulatory partners in Scotland and Wales and our own colleagues in the Qualifications
and Curriculum Authority, in London. 2048. We
have established an awarding body forum in Northern Ireland through which we
regularly meet bodies
that offer National Vocational Qualifications. That is supplemented by the ongoing
monitoring done by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority's audit branch.
To hear views on the system and to develop policy, we engage regularly with
employers and sectoral representative groups, including sectoral training councils.
We work closely with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training
and Employment; the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, on Government-funded
programmes with employers; the Training and Employment Agency; and the Education
and Training Inspectorate, with whom we share all the findings of our quality
audit work. 2049. Mr Beggs: The lines between the worlds
of academia and vocational training seem to be blurring. Academia cannot exist on
its own - it should be related to the world of work. Why are there three
organisations that look after training and educational standards in Northern
Ireland? Would it not be better to have one organisation, especially following
the development of vocational
A levels? There seems to be a blurring of the distinction. People's skills, whether gained in
a vocational or an academic setting, should be equally recognised. 2050. Ms Gormley: You have identified three
bodies. There are two regulatory bodies operating in Northern Ireland - the
Qualifications and Curriculum Authority and the Council for the Curriculum,
Examinations and Assessment. Obviously, there are other regulatory bodies in the rest of the
United Kingdom. The Education Act 1997 brought the National Council for
Vocational Qualifications
together with the School Curriculum and Assessment Authority, in a bid to end the divide
between academic
and vocational or occupational qualifications. 2051. Our
role in Northern Ireland relates to the post-accreditation monitoring of National Vocational
Qualifications.
The development of the qualifications framework is taken forward by the
Council for the Curriculum,
Examinations and Assessment, the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority and the Qualifications, Curriculum
and Assessment Authority for Wales (ACCAC). Therefore, the three regulatory
bodies work together. The Education Act 1997 sets out the remit and responsibilities of the
Qualifications and Curriculum Authority and it seemed fit that we should
continue the work that we were doing on National Vocational Qualifications.
The rationale for that may be found in the legislation. 2052. Mr Carrick: The Committee is trying to establish the efficiency and effectiveness
of the education system, and how well people can progress from training
to industry. Do you
believe that there is still a demarcation or a gap between education and training
and the demands of industry? If so how can that be addressed? 2053. Ms Gormley: I will confine my remarks
to qualifications. Education and training both lead to qualifications, but they
permeate many other facets of our lives. However, the issue of parity of esteem
or equivalency needs to be addressed. We have difficulty getting to grips with the
appropriate language ourselves. Equivalency can suggest that one qualification
is the same as another. However, the qualifications in the framework are, in
fact, quite different from each other. They should be different; they attest
to different things. In our paper we provided you with an overview of the qualifications
framework that showed the two ends of the spectrum. General or academic qualifications
attest to knowledge, whereas occupational qualifications are designed specifically
to attest to skills and competence. 2054. The
qualifications framework will go some way towards addressing the language issue.
More should be done to ensure sure that employers understand and use a common
language. In Northern Ireland, for example, employers still refer to O levels,
that indicates how much we need to do. Employers have a good grasp now of what a National Vocational
Qualification (NVQ) attests to. The middle pathway that we referred to in
the framework - the work on other vocational-related qualifications - might
extend people's thinking a little about where all the other types of qualification
come in. The sooner that employers make reference to the skills that they require
rather than the qualifications that they are looking for, the sooner we will
move the whole agenda forward. 2055. Mr Hay: Does your organisation believe
that there is an overlap or duplication of qualifications in the education and
training system in Northern Ireland? How could that be addressed? 2056. Ms Gormley: That was recognised at the
formation of the national qualifications framework, at the heart of which was
rationalisation. It was clear to Government and others that there was duplication
of qualifications. It will be a painful process, particularly for awarding bodies
that must go through the process of submitting themselves and their qualifications
for accreditation. At that stage, the regulatory bodies will look jointly at
those qualifications to see whether they meet the needs of Northern Ireland,
England and Wales and whether they have a national and international currency
beyond that. Frankly, if they have no such currency, they will not be within
the national qualifications framework. In England, particularly, that has implications
for funding, because it was suggested that only those qualifications that have
met the criteria to be included in the qualifications framework will, in future,
attract funding. 2057. Mr Lavery: The United Kingdom Government
have asked for rationalisation of the National Training Organisations (NTOs),
which map out the standards for the various industrial sectors. They are also
considering the rationalisation of vocational awards, which have been
around for a long time. 2058. Mr Beggs: Will that rationalisation automatically occur
in Northern Ireland or will we have to initiate it? 2059. Ms Gormley: The rationalisation will apply
if Northern Ireland continues to use the national qualifications framework. 2060. The Chairperson: The way that you framed
that response implies that there is some thinking that we might not. Is there a
debate about that at the moment? 2061. Ms Gormley: In our thinking, there is no debate. It
has not been suggested to us that we might not adopt the national qualifications
framework or that there should be a parallel or different framework in Northern
Ireland. 2062. Mr Byrne: The Committee is beginning to
come to terms with the complexity and multiplicity of training qualifications
and standards. There are two pathways, the vocational General National Vocational
Qualifications (GNVQs) and the occupational NVQ. What is the role of the Training
and Employment Agency in relation to the NTOs and QCA in drawing up standards
and parameters for courses? There is some concern that there is no standardisation
across the delivery of the courses or between different training organisations.
There is real concern about how we measure the quality of training. We must
think of the trainees, be they young people or long-term unemployed. 2063. Have
you a view about the quality or merit of GNVQs in comparison with, say, BTEC
Nationals? What is your view of the content and outcomes of the GNVQs? Has there
been any recent quality testing of the outcome of the work of training organisations
in NVQs? 2064. Ms Gormley: You have raised the issue
of quality. At present, there is a review taking place of the NTOs and their
UK-wide remit. They were originally established to draw up the occupational
standards upon which qualifications, particularly NVQs, were based. Over the years, people have
asked whether NTOs engage with employers or whether they really represent
employers. There has been particular concern that employers in Northern Ireland
were not engaged. QCA has set about ensuring that that happens. QCA fulfils
a liaison role between NTOs, sectoral training councils and, more importantly,
sectors that are not represented in the sectoral training council network. There
is a vast array of sectors, such as the community, voluntary, health and childcare
sectors, that are not part of the priority skill areas that are being identified
by the Training and Employment Agency. There are a number of areas that are
recognised as sectors but are not part of sectoral training councils. 2065. Through
the standards development programme, the QCA has ensured that there is effective consultation
in Northern Ireland with all those sectors. That ensures that when standards are developed
the specific legislative, geographical and other issues to do with Northern
Ireland are taken into consideration. With regard to standards, QCA is satisfied
that they are taking the Northern Ireland perspective into account and are meeting
the needs of employers. 2066. The
Training and Employment Agency has engaged with sectoral training councils in Northern Ireland to
help develop sector-specific training and identify specific training needs,
which are then matched with the NTO standards that are being developed for NVQs
and other qualifications. That produces programmes such as modern apprenticeships
and traineeships. That is the mechanism. The Training and Employment Agency
engages the work of NTOs where it sees it as being of relevance to Northern
Ireland and adopts the same frameworks and models. The funding might alter because
Northern Ireland might have its own priorities and skills agenda. 2067. Mr
Lavery will deal with the delivery arrangements. I am inviting him to make
a comment about the other qualifications that you have mentioned, although we
do not have a remit. 2068. Mr Byrne: Considering the role of the
QCA and the role of the Training and Employment Agency as a co-ordinating body,
who takes the lead in standard accreditation and monitoring of NVQs and GNVQs? 2069. Ms Gormley: The QCA takes the lead in
relation to the work that it does as a regulatory body. However, the development and design of training
programmes, the establishment of training providers, the recognition
of training arrangements and the funding of training are not in the remit of
QCA. They are within the agency's remit. 2070. Mr Lavery: NVQs measure the outcome of
the training and the assessment of it. The training itself is monitored through
the Training and Employment Agency's staff. They fund that and monitor the funding
for that training. When NVQs were in vogue around 1993, the then Secretary of
State for Education, Gillian Shephard, asked for the regional offices' views because
it was noticed that centres were not performing to an acceptable level for NVQs. 2071. At
that time awarding bodies were not carrying out the quality assurance regime
as they should have been to ensure that every award met its expected standard.
Since 1996, QCA has visited centres and identified key areas. A number of centres
were falling down in some areas. I will not go into the detail but we can provide
it if it is required. 2072. There
were three or four specific areas in which centres were falling down because
the awarding bodies - the people who issue the certificates - were not monitoring
the work on the ground. 2073. We have made sure that awarding
bodies do now carry out that monitoring work, and we substantively test
that work by visiting centres and awarding bodies. On the final quality of the
award, we like to think that all awards involve the same amount of rigour, while
still allowing flexibility for the training to be provided by whatever means
are possible. 2074. NVQs
are provided in many different areas. You have the workplace, through employment. You have
the colleges, through full-time education and work placements, and you have training
providers. People can spend a few days with the training provider and a number
of days in work placements. NVQs are designed to be flexible. Some people tend
to think that there is a difference in what goes into an NVQ, but the NVQ does
not measure what
goes in - it measures what comes out. It measures whether a person is competent.
We like to think, through the systems that we have in place to ensure that the
awarding bodies quality assure everyone to the same standards, that the
qualification that people receive will receive the same level of recognition
across the UK. 2075. Another organisation has
responsibility for looking after the quality and content of GNVQs. The
standards for GNVQs at the time that they were initially designed were seen
as relevant to the sectors. I know that the engineering GNVQ was seen as relevant.
However, as you say, there are alternatives. There are BTECs, for example. As I have not done
any research into it, I would not like to make any general comment at
this stage. 2076. Ms Gormley: There is a nationally agreed programme of scrutiny.
Although we are saying that we do not have a direct remit for the quality of
GNVQs, we are involved in the overall national programme. We are engaged
in some aspects of that work in relation to Northern Ireland. 2077. Mr Byrne: It is perceived that there is
great variety in the quality of outcomes. I do not believe that there is enough
scrutiny that is in the interest of young people. In some training organisations
it is relatively easy to get an NVQ, while in others it is quite difficult.
Somebody will have to be brave enough to say "Let us have real standardisation". 2078. Finally,
I want to comment on the practice of depending on the NVQ and GNVQ organisations
to do the monitoring. For GNVQs, there used to be a system whereby a moderator
was appointed to make three visits per year to a college. That is now reduced
to one. Given that it is now largely in-course assessment, I am not
sure that we are moving towards better standardisation. 2079. Mr Lavery: I will take up the point about
the NVQs. People constantly tell us that there are differing standards. When
we go to check, we find that the criteria laid down by the standards body have been met.
We openly invite
anyone to provide us with information regarding differing standards in
NVQs. We will follow up any such claim. We are keen to stamp out any difference
in the standard of the qualification. 2080. Mrs Nelis: Thank you for your presentation. You spoke
earlier about the workplace, the colleges and the training providers. I want
to ask about the element
of the work
that involves identifying vocational qualifications to meet the understanding
and knowledge needed for particular jobs. On which jobs or sectors do
you focus? 2081. Ms Gormley: Is that a reference to the
work on the development of other vocational qualifications and technical certificates? 2082. Mrs Nelis: Yes. 2083. Ms Gormley: That was a more interesting development. It stemmed
primarily from the Department for Education and Employment's request
to QCA to start identifying vocational qualifications that will be aligned more
closely to NVQs. In Northern Ireland, we have told the Department for Higher
and Further Education, Training and Employment that we will keep a brief on
those developments, because the Department has asked QCA to work closely with NTOs. NTOs have been asked to begin to identify,
with the awarding bodies, what existing qualifications might, with some minor
tweaking, attest to the knowledge and understanding requirements of NVQs.
BTECs are a good example of this. 2084. The
work taken forward in England has been specifically developed to support the review and reform
of the modern apprenticeship
frameworks in that country. For some time now quite a number of the modern
apprenticeship frameworks have identified a specific, knowledge-based qualification
that underpins and supports the NVQ. That is recognition that in some cases, particularly in the modern apprenticeship arrangements,
young people will need an input, not just an output. It is not sufficient to
assess them as competent; they need some training input as well. 2085. In
programmes like the modern apprenticeship the standardisation, will become much
more evident as it rolls out in traineeships. Young people will have a definite
foundation in relation to their vocational qualification, and they will move,
quite rightfully, into a proper workplace where they will prove occupational
competence. 2086. Moreover,
we have found of course that when NVQs are awarded and delivered in the right
context, which is the workplace, standardisation is rarely an issue. It is not
in an employer's interests to fail to attain the highest possible benchmark
in NVQ awards. 2087. You are correct that it is
quite difficult to measure the amount of input. We must recognise that
it is possible to find different standards in the amount of input provided to
a young person. Our rule of thumb is to ensure that they have gained the necessary
level of competence at the output stage at least, no matter how they may have
achieved it. However, we do not have a great deal of responsibility over the
training and input that they receive. I hope that that has answered your question
about development. 2088. Mrs Nelis: I could ask about much more. 2089. Ms Gormley: As I said, we will continue
to monitor it and to advise the Department. 2090. The Chairperson: How do you perform the
auditing role, which is crucial to your remit, since it is obviously a difficult
thing to do? How do you satisfy yourself that the standards in Northern Ireland
are the same as those in England, Scotland and Wales? Is there any interaction
with your counterparts? Do the auditors move back and forth in the same way
that inspectors do in schools and universities? 2091. Mr Lavery: The original team of auditors
was based in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The auditors employed by the
Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales still work alongside
us. We are occasionally invited to help them carry out small pieces of
work in Wales, and that maintains their level. 2092. We
satisfy ourselves that standards are the same in Northern Ireland by visiting
all the awarding bodies operating here with colleagues from England. There are
only two of us in Northern Ireland, and it would be virtually impossible to
cover all of the awarding bodies by ourselves. Therefore, the burden of work
is spread across the whole team, and there are currently 13 of us in England
and Northern Ireland. 2093. Ms Gormley: Each year we devise a national
programme of monitoring
with our colleagues in England. In other words, we decide with them what
the priorities should be, and the awards and awarding bodies that should be looked at.
We use sources of information derived from Northern Ireland, for example, complaints
or issues that we have repeatedly addressed in centres in Northern Ireland. All of that is
used to inform the programme, so that we can specify the awards and awarding
bodies that we need to focus on. That programme is shared nationally. Therefore
there is a considerable degree of interchange among officers who are working
on it. 2094. Mr Lavery: In our Belfast office there is a filing cabinet
containing what we classify as intelligence - those pieces of information
that were mentioned earlier and which can be of a varying standard. Over time
we try to build up a picture and act on it. I hope that we are making a difference. 2095. The Chairperson: Is your intelligence
- or whatever way you want to put it - telling you that the "problem" is getting
bigger or smaller? 2096. Mr Lavery: The problem
is getting smaller because we are now a regulator, which I should have mentioned. Our documents
have changed over the years. The two original NVQ criteria and guidance,
and the original eight-page common accord, were couched in broad terms. As long
as people worked within those guidelines, they were not breaking any rules. 2097. In 1997, we created
another set of rules that tightened things, but still allowed for deviation.
We have recently introduced a new set that tightens things even more, and those
are just bedding in. The problems are getting smaller as we identify them and
put controls in place to stop them occurring. 2098. Mr Byrne: Resources are
an underlying issue to which none of us has referred. Finances are vital if
we are to have quality NVQs or GNVQs for vocational and educational training.
We have not mentioned that. Are the finances generous or less than generous?
Are they a constraint on the quality of the input, assessing and examining? 2099. Ms Gormley: Sources advise
us that resources impose considerable constraint. For example, the principle upon which
NVQs are based is that they should be taught with the employment of resources
and at a time and pace that best meet the needs of the individual - not those
of the programmes. 2100. As soon as we start
to package the programme into a resource that is deliverable to a vast number
of people, we immediately have a dilemma. If we take those in this room as examples,
one person might take three weeks to achieve a fairly high level vocational
award in an area in which they had been working for several years, although
someone new to that discipline could take a considerable length of time. That
example is simplistic, but that is our difficulty. 2101. The Training and Employment
Agency and the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment
are the bodies responsible for the funding formulae. People tell us that they
experience difficulties, particularly on the time-bound constraints of a programme.
They find programme constraints more restrictive than those created by the funding,
but the two are intertwined. 2102. Mr Lavery: One complaint
made by the trainers in the centres I recently visited is that the time constraint
changes every year, putting them under pressure. 2103. The Chairperson: The
Committee would like to thank Mr Lavery and Ms Gormley. Your submission was
immensely interesting. Thank you too for all the material you previously submitted. The area of
monitoring qualifications is critically important, and I have little
doubt that the Committee will return to it in the future, so I am sure that
we will be calling on you again. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 8 March 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr J Kelly Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Mr A Barron ) Galen
(Pharmaceutical) Division 2104. The Chairperson: Thank you for coming today. It is very kind
of you to attend at short notice. 2105. We
are keen to hear about some of the factors you feel have helped to contribute
to the success of your company, especially with reference to training as that
is part of our inquiry. I understand there are some special issues regarding
people who have backgrounds in chemistry, which you might like to go into. 2106. Mr Barron: I will give you a brief overview
of the company and tell you some of the difficulties. 2107. Basically,
Galen Holdings was formed locally by our chairman, Dr Allen McClay, 30 years
ago and is still going strong. It has expanded rapidly and now has a turnover of £160 million.
It was £80 million last October, and since the acquisition of Warner Chilcott, the
female health care company, we have doubled our turnover. 2108. We are now a global company
based in Northern Ireland, Britain and America. In Northern Ireland there are
five subsidiaries. Galen is the non-sterile division, which makes analgesics and antibiotics,
and is based in Portadown. Also there is the clinical trials division, which
does stage-three clinical trials for the multi-nationals such
as Glaxo, Bowringer and companies such as those. Also there is SynGal, which is one of our larger chemical
synthesis divisions, based in Craigavon. In Belfast we have Q Chem, which is based
in the School of Chemistry at Queen's University. Galen owns 76% of the
shares in this company
and it is a small-scale chemical synthesis unit. Finally, there is Ivex
Pharmaceutical in Larne, which manufactures sterile products such as cardio-vascular
units and intravenous drips. 2109. There
are three divisions in America - Clinical Trials Services (CTS), which is a
sister company of CTS here, Warner Chilcott, which I mentioned earlier, and
Interactive Clinical Technologies Incorporate (ICTI) - and they focus on Northern
Ireland. In 1997, the company shares were floated on the Dublin and London stock
markets at £1·70 and are now worth about £9·50. Galen now has 1,800 employees worldwide.
We have the best market capitalisation in Northern Ireland and have overtaken
the Viridian Group. That is a brief background to the company. 2110. I will focus on the main
concern, which is chemistry. I am pleased that the number of entrants into
the School of Chemistry in Queen's University, Belfast (QUB) has improved this year. There are still difficulties
in recruiting analysts, chemists, and development chemists. 2111. The main recruitment problem
is synthetic organic chemists, which is a specialised area in the formulation
of new drugs. Large multinational customers, like Glaxo or Gilden, might have a new
drug for AIDS or breast cancer and would give us the chemical formula,
from which we would
manufacture the drug. They are known as virtual companies. We cannot get appropriate
personnel in Northern Ireland; they are few and far between. We need
people that have science degrees, or PhDs, in chemistry. From Queen's University
we recruit pharmacists, pharmacologists, biochemists and chemists. 2112. Recruitment
concerns stem from sociological problems. I have found that children decide to do O-levels and
A-levels in physics, chemistry and maths, but they do not know what to do afterwards. If a parent
has gone into medicine or dentistry, the children are discouraged from
a career in chemistry. Instead, parents and peers encourage them to go into
medicine or dentistry. They are unsure about a career in chemistry. 2113. There
are also not many openings in Northern Ireland, apart from Norbrook and ourselves. We currently
have a large IDB assisted expansion programme in the pipeline. We need
over 150 chemists, particularly in chemical synthesis which will be based in
Craigavon. 2114. Our
chairman, Dr Allen McClay, has gone to great lengths to promote chemistry in
the Province. He has set up the Dr McClay Trust, to which he has donated millions
of pounds, to promote chemistry. 2115. We
have gone to the extent that, last summer, we talked to the Western Education and Library Board
and gave 15 chemistry teachers a tour of our Portadown site. We asked
them what career they envisaged having with their chemistry degrees, and 99%
of them said 'chemistry teachers'. I found it shocking that that was the advice
that they were giving to pupils. The problem seems to lie with parents, social
peers or the chemistry teachers themselves. 2116. We
now recruit staff from Spain, Germany and France - only two weeks ago we offered
a job to a Czech. 2117. The Chairperson: Can you give us any numbers? 2118. Mr Barron: There are probably eight or
nine currently. SynGal has only been operational for two years. Q Chem has been
going for a number of years. We are in a period of expansion, but we will be
in serious trouble if we do not fill those posts next year. I have had various
meetings with other directors of the company. 2119. As
well as that, we cannot get people for junior posts. They are few and far between.
There may be an issue regarding the package of benefits we are offering, and
we are addressing that at the moment. It could be argued that Northern Ireland
is not big in pharmaceuticals. Dublin and Cork are the big areas. I think there
are 27 chemical/pharmaceutical firms in Cork, and we are sadly lacking here. 2120. Mrs Nelis: What is the religious breakdown
of your workforce? 2121. Mr Barron: I could not say. 2122. Mrs Nelis: Would you forward the information
to me? 2123. Mr Barron: Yes. 2124. Mrs Nelis: Have you sought recruits from Dublin? 2125. Mr Barron: Yes. We advertise in the 'The
Irish Times' and on the Internet. 2126. Mrs Nelis: You were saying how difficult
it was to recruit and that you had to bring people in from overseas. 2127. Mr Barron: We advertise in many forms
of media. We use
our own web site and a specific chemistry web site. We advertise in the
'Belfast Telegraph', 'The Irish News' and the 'News Letter'. There is not much
response from Northern Ireland. In the south of Ireland we use 'The Irish Times'. There is also a political
problem and, as I hinted at earlier, our benefits system, but we know
that it is not entirely due to that. We are also advertising in England. 2128. For
example, in Cork, where there are many pharmaceutical firms, people may be interested
in moving to a better job. When they find out it is Galen they ask where it
is. When they find out it is Northern Ireland they do not want to come here.
They ask where abouts Galen is in Northern Ireland, and when you say "Portadown", they say "No
chance". It is a big difficulty and it only takes one tiny bit of political
instability or civil unrest to upset recruitment. We found that the husbands
are willing to move but that it is the wife or spouse who is unwilling to move.
That is another issue. We get one or two people from companies such as Pharmacea
in County Cork. A lot of our people go south to Sligo, and Galway. 2129. Mr Carrick: I live in Portadown - I feel
quite safe there, as you would maybe understand. We are not hiding from the
fact that we have difficulties. We are trying to overcome them. You referred
to the meeting you had with 18 teachers from the Western Board. Since the Southern
Education and Library Board (SELB) serves Portadown, Craigavon and the general
area, I wonder what representations you have made to them in connection with
your shortage of labour supply? In particular, what are your links with Banbridge
Academy, Portadown College, Lurgan College and the Upper Bann Institute of Further
and Higher Education? As a Portadown person I can say that we value the contribution
that Galen is making to our area, and Northern Ireland in general. It does seem
that there is a macro-image about Galen and that it does not relate to those
at grass roots level. If you are going to be recruiting from the local labour
market, the links do not appear to be there. 2130. Mr Barron: The point made concerning the
Western Board and the school of chemistry was a political decision whereby we
tried to bring in other people. It could easily have resulted in a mixed group
from any of the boards. Last Monday of this week, a member of my staff went to
meet Dr Audrey McKeown to discuss connections with further and higher institutes. There
was a specific question about chemistry and whether they might form a link with
Galen to try and promote chemistry. This may be a difficulty, in that the type
of chemistry that we are looking for is of a high grade and at present they
do not teach chemistry in the grammar schools of Upper Bann. 2131. Mr Carrick: That difficulty must be overcome.
If there is a demand for that type of skill then we must put ourselves in a
position to meet that demand and supply those skills for you. Just because there
appears to be a difficulty does not mean that there is no way forward. We will
have to work to overcome that. How are you trying to encourage grammar schools
in the area to look more seriously at the type of chemistry they provide so
that their students can move on to Queens University or higher education? 2132. Mr Barron: We are looking into this. Galen
has undergone rapid growth over the last two or three years. SynGal, which did not
exist at that time, now has 60 people working there. Q Chem had only
five people working there and has now become bigger and bigger. It is now moving too fast
for us although we are starting to address this. Following the acquisition
of Warner Silcott
estates, their influence is pushing us towards more chemistry and the
setting up of a new huge laboratory for 150 chemists. We are addressing that issue and we
will need to talk with the grammar schools. We have looked to the South,
where there are schools of chemistry in counties Mayo and Sligo, and have tried bringing in people
from there. We have also brought schoolchildren to have a look. There do not
appear to be enough people getting into pure chemistry at Queens although
the numbers have increased slightly this year. However, we will need to target
the grammar schools. 2133. Mrs Carson: I am sorry you are having
these problems and I am shocked at how great they are. I once worked on the Garvaghy
road and had no difficulty working there. I have a son working there
at present. However, I hope that it is not all doom and gloom in the Portadown
area. I understand your problems in winning over chemistry teachers, especially
following an era
when industry was not "nice." That will be a problem for the entire industrial
sector in Northern Ireland to overcome. Its purpose will be to educate
chemistry teachers and parents, as they want to see BA graduates in jobs that
are nice and easy and in which there are no problems and no hassle. They forget
about the rewards that the industry has other than just pay. 2134. You
must also build up a better rapport with schools in Northern Ireland because,
as a Northern Ireland-based firm, you should be looking to recruit locally. 2135. I
do not think that there is anything wrong with the intellect of the people of
Northern Ireland that would make you look elsewhere. Have you considered offering
bursaries or scholarships? I know that the services attract some from grammar
schools. They find that if they give a bursary or a scholarship then they get
the high-fliers. Have you considered that, because it might be one way to get
them? 2136. Mr Barron: It is something we have been
talking about. I have been talking to Dr Walker, who is the technical director
of Q Chem in Belfast, and he is keen to do something along those lines. We are
talking about it at this point in time. 2137. Mrs Carson: That will not bring anyone
in for about three years. If you flag up opportunities it would raise your profile.
You should go round all the schools in Northern Ireland. 2138. Mr Beggs: I suspect that some of your
problems stem from society not valuing people who work in industry, and viewing
the professions as the be-all and end-all. Can you put on record the kind of
wage range you are offering as a starting salary? There should be healthy wages
available in order to attract the type of people you are looking for. Wages
should not be a problem - or are they? 2139. Mr Barron: There are very hefty targets
to meet. Shareholders want to know exactly what we are doing all the time. Do
not get the wrong idea that we are paying poor wages. The wages are not as high
as those anywhere else in Britain or Ireland, there is no doubt about it. However,
we are addressing that issue as well. A lot of directors are saying that we
may be 10% to 20% behind. 2140. Mr Beggs: Do you think that there are
sufficient chemistry courses at higher education levels? Are there enough applicants for those
courses? Recently, representatives from Bombardier said that there was
a weakness in the mathematics and engineering sector. Do you perceive reluctance
for people to study chemistry at A-level or at university level? 2141. My
final question is about school careers advice for people going to university. Do you feel that there
is a weakness there, and if so what improvements do you suggest? Have
you any suggestions from your international contacts? What are they doing differently
in related companies in America, to ensure that accurate market information
about opportunities is getting to schoolchildren? 2142. Mr Barron: The salient point is the education
system. In my opinion, if there was greater emphasis on chemistry from careers
guidance teachers there would be no problem. I know some of the professors in
the School of Chemistry, and they would take more students. We have jobs for
people. It is a long term objective because we have recently created so many
jobs. The reality was that before the Galen group expanded the jobs did not
exist. Therefore, people went across the water to where they could use their
degrees or PhDs in
chemistry or biochemistry. I cannot comment on the systems of our American
counterparts. America is the pharmaceutical marketplace - there is no doubt
about that. I imagine that chemistry is promoted more in the States, but I cannot
say that for certain. 2143. Mr Beggs: You say that there are opportunities.
I would not go into a school and point to a particular subject; I would point
out the opportunities. How are careers guidance teachers flagging up such opportunities? 2144. Mr Barron: The Western Education and Library Board
showed us clearly. I take Mrs Carson's point. My brother is a teacher, and he is completely disillusioned
with the education system. That is a personal thing, but the image that we got
was that they did not care one way or another. They were concerned only with
getting through their day. It is a terrible thing to say, but they were
not particularly bothered who went where afterwards, as long as they
got them their O-levels and A-levels in chemistry. 2145. Mr J Kelly: I note that operating profits doubled in
the first quarter. Could Galen not reflect that in its wages? I know that you are a market undertaking
driven by the City, but I shall not deal with that question now. 2146. Mr Barron: I must be careful what I say. 2147. Mr J Kelly: The fact that operating profits doubled in
the first quarter leapt out at me when you mentioned the wage situation - it
seemed an odd juxtaposition. Pharmaceuticals are obviously a growth industry.
Do you have ways of projecting future growth over the next five or 10 years? 2148. Mr Barron: We had our plans until we acquired Warner
Chilcott. Although that was an acquisition, the Americans think that it was
a merger. Many of them are
getting on to the board at the moment. As I explained, owing to the diversity
of products that we manufacture, we wanted a diverse culture, but they feel
that there is more money to be made in America than in Europe, and on the manufacturing
side of things as opposed to contract services. 2149. Mr Kelly: If you can project forward 10
years, you will be in a better position to say that you will need a specific
number of chemists. You can offer a better package when you go into schools. 2150. Mr Barron: I could not really project
it any further than the next two or three years. The Q Chem and SynGal synthesis
units are combining to form Chemical Synthesis Services (CSS). I could not predict
any more than that. There are 150 jobs. 2151. Mr J Kelly: The Health, Social Services
and Public Safety Committee, on which I also serve, has received representation
from biochemists, who feel that there has been a grievous drain of personnel
from that discipline to the manufacturing side. 2152. Mr Barron: In Northern Ireland? 2153. Mr J Kelly: Yes. Some of them go to the
South and some to England and elsewhere. That is one of the problems that they
face. Qualified people do not go to hospitals but into industrial chemistry. 2154. Mr Barron: Perhaps you could tell me who
they are. I could do with some of them. 2155. Mr J Kelly: It is an open secret, and
that is the problem. It happens because qualified biochemists are so badly paid in hospitals.
They find industry more attractive. Quite apart from the attractiveness of the
wages, there is a shortage right across the field of chemistry and biochemistry.
I am anxious to know whether your company could do anything more than at present
to develop the education and training system. 2156. Mr Barron: I have noted many of the things
that have been said here today, the two main issues being bursaries and scholarships
and talking to grammar schools. I take that on board, and that will happen.
I mentioned our links with Upper Bann Institute. We have had various talks with
the School of Chemistry as to how we are going to bring the young people in.
My biggest difficulty is with the schoolteachers, who are most influential in
telling a child what future to take. I am not sure how to get over that sociological
problem. It arises when a child's mother or father is in dentistry or medicine.
I do not know how we can change that. 2157. Mr J Kelly: The old notion of apprenticeship
may be relevant. A young man went to serve his apprenticeship because he knew
that at the end of five years he was going to get a job as a tradesman. If you
planned ahead, you could get people to train in school for chemistry because
at the end of that period there would be a job for them. Are you sending a positive
message about that? 2158. Mr Barron: We need to get into the schools again. 2159. Mr J Kelly: People are looking for security
of employment. 2160. Mr Dallat: I am sure that your visit here
has not been wasted. There is someone from the Department sitting behind you
in the Public Gallery and, no doubt, your message will be carried back to where it needs to
go. Three
times you have highlighted the mindset of teachers. You also said that parents
may well have been brought up in a particular social climate and projected
that on to their children. 2161. Recently,
I met some young people who were studying physics at the North East Institute of Further and Higher
Education in Ballymena. They were from a working-class background and found the subject
refreshing,
because it was taught in a completely different way, using computers
and new technology. Does chemistry have to be all test tubes and Latin? 2162. Mr Barron: It does not, although it was
in my day. 2163. Mr Dallat: I did not study chemistry,
but I observed it - and smelt it - when I walked past. The Committee should
listen to you and you need to help us, otherwise this will not change. We have
had fifty years of a stuffy education system that survived on 3 A-levels that
had no relevance to jobs. We should be radical. 2164. Mr Barron: I hope that I can benefit from
Members' experience. I hoped that the Committee could tell me what I should
do. Taking a year out is helpful to students on chemistry or physics courses.
They learn a lot about the private sector. 2165. Mr Dallat: Norbrook Laboratories is the
only other company that I know. Do the companies work in isolation, or do they get
together to say to the university, "Let us get real and start producing
young graduates who are enthusiastic and interested in what we are doing"? Are
companies so competitive that they do not talk to each other? 2166. Mr Barron: We work in total isolation. 2167. Mr Dallat: I thought that. Should there
not be some mechanism to encourage the industry to develop an association that
would help to bring about changes? 2168. Mr Barron: There should, but I do not
think that it will
happen with Norbrook. If there were involvement from half a dozen pharmaceutical
companies in Northern Ireland, it would be possible. 2169. Mr Dallat: I do not understand that. Do
you support the principle of collaboration? 2170. Mr Barron: It depends on the nature of the chemistry. The pharmaceutical
world will not tell anybody else what it is doing. 2171. Mr Dallat: I was enthused by what I heard
from somebody who told the Committee that they had gone to the Belfast Institute
of Further and Higher Education, got the lecturers by the scruff of the
neck and practically written the courses for them. 2172. Mr Barron: If we could do that, I would
be delighted. 2173. Mr Dallat: Should you not go to the Council
for the Curriculum, Examination and Assessment, who set all the exams, and mould
the way in which young people are made to think in order to pass exams? That
would ring the changes, would it not? 2174. Mr Barron: It is not so much a matter of passing exams.
As Mrs Carson said, the intellectual skills exist in Northern Ireland, there
is no doubt about that, but the students seem to be taking up pharmacy or other
things. We need to move them in the direction of chemistry. We need to inform
people that if they get a degree or PhD in chemistry, they can get a job. They
do not have to be a schoolteacher. There are many jobs available. 2175. Mr Dallat: Were all the teachers from the Western Board
from grammar schools or were some from the secondary sector? 2176. Mr Barron: They were from the secondary
sector mainly. 2177. The Chairperson: There is a review of the whole curriculum
going on, which will cover chemistry. We are aware of the need to do something
about the numbers of people taking mathematics and physics, as the numbers are
dropping. I presume that the same has been happening in chemistry. 2178. Mr Barron: Yes it has, although last year
the numbers rose a little due to the work of a professor at Queen's University. 2179. The Chairperson: What has been happening
to the numbers of A-level students studying chemistry? 2180. Mr Barron: The numbers have remained fairly
constant. It is the choices that they make after A-levels that are the problem. 2181. The Chairperson: Do you want to re-jig
the content of the A-level? 2182. Mr Barron: No. 2183. The Chairperson: You are concerned about
motivation and careers guidance. 2184. Mr Barron: Yes. Why would someone who
is guaranteed a job
in dentistry or medicine study chemistry when there is no certainty of
a job in Northern Ireland when their studies are finished? However, we say that
jobs are available to chemistry students. 2185. The Chairperson: Are there problems attracting people with
the right experience in postgraduate and postdoctoral research? 2186. Mr Barron: There are few people available
who have studied
for a PhD or postdoctoral qualification. It is a specific field, which
is why we take people from elsewhere in Europe. 2187. The Chairperson: Is that happening more
on the PhD side? 2188. Mr Barron: It is. In contrast to here,
France, for example, has a surplus of chemistry students. 2189. Mr Beggs: You mentioned the fact that
you are now the number one firm in Northern Ireland, as far as market capitalisation
is concerned. Did many schoolchildren and teachers involved in careers guidance
visit your firm last year? 2190. Mr Barron: There have not been many. There
have been many trips to SynGal, the synthesis unit in Portadown. I do not know
exactly how many. Often, the technical managers organise trips. 2191. Mr Beggs: Are schools unaware of what
is happening in industry? Should links be developed at that stage? 2192. Mr Barron: I do not think that they are
aware. Galen should
be doing more - there is no doubt about it. 2193. Mr Beggs: The schools should be doing
more, too. 2194. Mr Barron: If the schools want to approach
us, we would be more than happy to show them around and exert as much influence
on the teachers as we can. If I were to tell our chairman that there would be
a lot of schoolteachers and careers advisors visiting the company, he would
be over the moon. He has invested a lot of his own money in promoting chemistry
in the Province. 2195. The Chairperson: Is your company involved
in the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership, which attempts to promote
links between schools, FE colleges and business? 2196. Mr Barron: No. 2197. The Chairperson: That would seem to be the official vehicle
for many of the things that we have been talking about. 2198. Mr Barron: I do not want to get the situation
out of perspective. In Northern Ireland, we have over 1,000 people working at
three sites, and we can fill most of those jobs. We are having difficulties
finding "knowledge workers" in chemistry. I am not talking about the rank-and-file
employees. 2199. Mrs Carson: Could you give us a breakdown
of your workforce by gender? 2200. Mr Barron: It would be approximately 50-50.
I know that because someone worked out the figures the other day. I had thought
that the percentage of females working for the company was higher, because we
are presently working out a flexible working hours system. 2201. Mrs Carson: Is it the same ratio for senior
positions? 2202. Mr Barron: No. It is male-dominated at
senior level. 2203. Mr Beggs: What is the situation at graduate level? 2204. Mr Barron: It is about 50-50 for graduates,
but junior, middle and senior management are male-dominated. 2205. Mrs Carson: There is a lot of work to
be done. 2206. Mr J Kelly: What is the ratio of professional
workers to manual workers in the company? 2207. Mr Barron: Twenty-five to thirty per cent
of the workforce are professionals. 2208. Mr J Kelly: Would you have any difficulties
recruiting manual workers? 2209. Mr Barron: No. Employees tend to stay
in our Portadown site. Conditions are good there. We work in super-clean environments
and they seem to like that. 2210. Mr J Kelly: Would the wages be comparable
to other companies? 2211. Mr Barron: We carry out an annual wage
survey. There are many wage bands at shop-floor level. We may not pay the highest
wages, but we are up there, and I am confident about our performance in that
area. It is in the area of "knowledge workers" that we are slightly behind.
However, we are addressing that. 2212. The Chairperson: Thank you very much for
coming. It has been extremely interesting. 2213. Mr Barron: I hope that I have not painted
a picture of doom, gloom and despondency. That is not the case. I must stress
that those are the problems, as it were. 2214. The Chairperson: Your company has the problem of success.
It could grow even more rapidly, and that is the key point that we will take
away. We have heard similar stories from other major companies. Your situation
relates particularly to chemistry, and it has been a useful example for us.
As we move through our inquiry, we will want to build that into our considerations.
We wish you well and hope that you will be able to build closer links with the
schools, further education and higher education establishments. 2215. Mr Barron: Thank you. I would be more
than happy to assist the Committee further, if necessary. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 22 March 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr Hay Mr R Hutchinson Ms McWilliams Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Mr T Scott ) Department of Higher and Further
Ms D McGill ) Education, Training and Employment 2216. The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee
I welcome you both. 2217. We
are dealing with the consultation document 'Building a Stronger Network: Developing
the Role of National
Training Organisations' and preparing to frame a response to it. We have looked
into the background and structure of National Training Organisations
(NTOs) in Northern
Ireland and we have found it quite interesting. It is related to the structure
of the Sector Training Councils (STC), so amongst other things we would like
you to elaborate on, and answer questions on that area. 2218. Would
you like to make any initial statement or summary before we move to questions? 2219. Mr Scott: The Committee might find it
useful if we simply
said a few words about our background. You have indicated that the structure
of STCs in Northern Ireland is interesting. That is always a frightening
word to use. 2220. In 1989-90 the industry training
boards in Northern Ireland were wound up, roughly at the same time as
the industry training boards in Great Britain. Most of the training boards formed
Sector Training Councils (STCs) on a voluntary basis after the statutory boards
were disbanded. That is why they exist, and they have grown over that period
of time. There are 13 of them representing the private sector. The only remaining
statutory body is the Construction Industry Training Board (Northern Ireland).
It carries out more or less the same functions as the Construction Industry
Training Board and the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board in Great
Britain. There are two training boards in Great Britain compared to one in Northern
Ireland. 2221. The
public and voluntary sectors in Northern Ireland are largely represented by the National Training
Organisations (NTOs) which mainly operate out of England. However, in
some cases they are represented in Northern Ireland, usually on a part-time
or voluntary basis. Our contact with them is based on that. 2222. I
do not know how much information the Committee wants me to give. Would you be
happy for me to just answer questions? 2223. The Chairperson: We will move to questions. 2224. Mr Beggs: I see from the evidence submitted
that 73 NTOs cover
the United Kingdom. There appears to be some confusion over the number
operating here. Can you clarify exactly how many there are in Northern Ireland?
How much overlap is there with Northern Ireland's STCs? As much of industry
will not be catered for if those NTOs do not operate here, please identify the
areas which are not covered. Where areas of industry such as service and health
industries are not covered by NTOs in Northern Ireland, can you assure us that
this is not detrimental for those training in the Province? 2225. Mr Scott: Yes, there are 73 NTOs. Our
best estimate is that about 40 to 45 of those have some sort of link with STCs
in Northern Ireland. For example, in Northern Ireland the textile and clothing
industry is represented
by a single STC, but I think that in England three or four NTOs span
that industry. In England there are other bodies such as the Further Education
NTO which deals with the public sector. It does not operate in Northern Ireland,
but it does have members here through the colleges. However, it has no effective
communication with us in the Province. In the Health Service the NTOs work with
and link into the various boards and trusts. They do not have a formal presence
here; they are simply represented by a Northern Ireland Committee which does
not have a full-time structure. 2226. One
of the main roles of NTOs in Great Britain is to set standards which help determine
National Vocational Qualifications (NVQs). As I said, Northern Ireland feeds
into that through the NTOs on a voluntary basis. As we do not have our own separate
NVQ system we rely on the English and Welsh system. As you are aware, Scotland
has its own vocational qualification system. 2227. No
trainee is detrimentally affected with regard to the quality of training provided
or the outcomes of that training. I think that the gap is in our information
and knowledge about what is going on in the various industry sectors rather
than in the quality of training being provided. 2228. Mr Beggs: Is there not a danger with the
duplication of the two different organisations that you end up missing out and
misusing limited resources? If NVQs are used in Northern Ireland, is there not
some degree of linkage into these national organisations? 2229. Mr Scott: Yes. NVQs are established by
the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority (QCA), and we link into it very
clearly. When sectoral committees determine NVQs someone from Northern Ireland
is usually in attendance.
In most cases, an NTO representative will also be there in a voluntary
capacity. You are right that there is always a possibility of missing out, but
we have no knowledge of having missed out in that area to date. 2230. The
resources our Department has applied to STCs and to this area have all been
in the private sector. STCs cover most of the private sector. We have not yet
applied any resources to the public or voluntary sector as regards sectoral
development and we are currently addressing that issue through a consultative
forum we have set up in Northern Ireland. 2231. Mr Carrick: You referred to the Construction
Industry Training Board (CITB) as the only statutory body in the STC. The CITB
in Northern Ireland recently identified a need to encourage a culture change within
the industry,
and to that end recommended greater employer commitment to training and
a substantial increase in the number and variety of firms involved. Are there any procedures
in place to ensure an adequate and varied range of employer representation
on STCs? 2232. As
you are aware, CITB is funded by levies on members from within the construction
industry. Where employers use CITB training programmes a 65% grant is available,
though I understand this will soon be reduced to 40%. That places them at a distinct
advantage over the private sector. This sector can also give accredited
training, but because private firms do not enjoy the 40% grant facility, there
is not a level playing field as regards competition. 2233. Mr Scott: Whether a firm is a member of
the CITB is determined by the Industrial Training Levy (Construction Industry)
Amendment Order (Northern Ireland) 1997, commonly known as the scope order.
There is no opting out of
its mechanism. If the scope order applies to a firm then that firm has
to pay its levy. The cultural change required is about attitude rather than
membership. If firms have to pay a levy, they would expect value for money and
become engaged with the CITB. 2234. As
regards representation on the CITB, appointments are made by the Minister and
the Department after
consultation with the industry. That is provided for in the Order. It is carried
out under open competition in the sense that an advertisement is placed,
and interested people apply. The Minister chooses from the list of successful
applicants. The interests of employees and employers are equally represented
on the board. Representation is on an open basis, ending with a ministerial
appointment. You will appreciate that the industry, as payer of the levies,
is interested in ensuring that the right people represent it. 2235. Each
year, the board submits proposals for a levy to the Department. Those would
include details of what the board proposes to do with the levy before an Order
is signed off, bringing the levy into operation. During recent years the board
has sought to reduce the levy and get as much value for money from it as possible.
One way to reduce it was to reduce grant aid to particular types of training.
At the moment, the focus is on minority trades. For example, they think they
need to do more to encourage people into areas such as flooring, where there
is no proper training course. Another example would be ceiling fixing where
there are not a great number of people but there is a need for training. 2236. The CITB is not, in the main,
a training provider. As I understand it, an employer will find a training
provider whether it is a college or private-sector organisation. It will seek
grant aid from CITB for that training. CITB does not subsidise trainers; it
helps employers purchase training through the grant system. The issue of unfair
competition is one we would need to highlight to the CITB. 2237. Since
it is a grant to the employer as the purchaser of training, rather than a subsidy
to a training provider, we feel there is a level playing field. 2238. Mr Carrick: Certain private training operators
with accreditation are being disadvantaged by the current grant system. At a
later stage outside the Committee I should like the opportunity to discuss with
you an individual case I have in mind. It would be a perfect example of what
I am trying to say. 2239. Mr Scott: Yes. It would be helpful if
you could do that. 2240. Mr Byrne: Perhaps I might have some information on the consultative
forum. What is its exact role and remit, and what kind of function, statutory or
otherwise, will it have? I should also like to know what the role of
the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) is in co-ordinating and leading
the task of devising quality training in the private and voluntary community sectors as well
as public sectoral training in further education and training centres. I shall
make the general comment that this Committee has the task of working towards
better value-added training. 2241. Mr Scott: We became conscious that, in addition to the
local STCs, a number of NTOs were beginning to operate in Northern Ireland on
a voluntary basis, for example, in the Health Service and the voluntary sector.
They were beginning to approach us to secure funding for various activities. We decided to offer them
the opportunity to come together in a consultative forum where we could at least
have an even-handed approach to them all. It is not a statutory body but a group
we have brought together. I am chairing it on a temporary basis until such time
as its members feel it has become sufficiently sophisticated to determine its
own chairmanship. 2242. At
present we send someone to the consultative forum, spanning the public, private and voluntary sectors
on a rotational basis to maintain contact with developments in Great Britain.
It is a purely consultative forum. We speak to them about things we do
and try to get a common view across each of the sectors on what our policy should
be. 2243. Mr Byrne: It is therefore a loose gathering,
and that worries me. Given the fact that all of us, and the T&EA in particular, should
have the objective of better-quality training, why can we not opt for something
with more teeth and a more meaningful role? It seems that NTOs are setting themselves
up here on a voluntary basis largely because of NVQ-type accreditation
and standards. We need a more focused approach and a statutory forum. 2244. Mr Scott: The issue of quality is important
for us as well as for you. Quality systems are in place for NVQs and other vocational
qualifications. The QCA in Great Britain has an office in Belfast. It has a
set of quality standards and carries out the verification and validation of
NVQs. The awarding bodies also carry out validation and quality checks on the
application of NVQ standards. Those accredited to provide NVQ training in Northern
Ireland carry out internal quality checks. All that is covered by an agreement
between the QCA and the awarding bodies. The awarding bodies mainly link into
the NTOs, although not in every case. A series of quality checks ensures that
the outcomes of training, the NVQs, are properly dealt with and accredited.
That has only been questioned in a few cases. 2245. To
achieve value for money as a department, we have the Education and Training
Inspectorate look at our training contractors. We have a whole series of quality
checks in place to try to ensure value for money and the right outcomes for
people participating in training. 2246. Mr Byrne: That begs the question of whether
we feel training in Northern Ireland is of such high quality that we need not
change it. Are we all happy with the status quo, or do we feel there is a real
need to develop training for groups hitherto not afforded the opportunity? 2247. Mr Scott: Your question raises a number
of fundamental issues. The content and standard of NVQs are first determined
by a sectoral group within the awarding body which will decide on type, level
and content and submit its decision to the QCA for approval. After approval
and accreditation, the content and standard of the qualification are determined.
As industry is deciding the content and quality of qualifications, we should
be satisfied with that, since we are not here to second-guess industry. 2248. However,
there is a whole raft of things outside that area which must be addressed separately
from NVQs. For example, the Open College network, which is outside the NVQ system,
has a number of accredited courses - for example, in basic skills - which are
aimed at people who do not seek to achieve a high level of NVQ training. The
CCEA in Northern Ireland has a role in GNVQs and has brought vocational GCSEs
and so on into the picture. The CCEA in Northern Ireland will have a
role in local quality standards. Having allowed that to happen, our concern
is therefore that the system of quality auditing which has been set up is working
well and providing the right courses to the right people. We must identify those
people and ensure they have access to the right training at a time which suits them.
The whole life-long learning process has been about that. 2249. Mr Dallat: In my innocence, I cannot resist
asking you this. I was only coming to terms with expressions like NVQs, and
now I shall have to cope with NTOs, STCs, GNVQs and the QCA - how will that
ever mean anything to the ordinary man in the street? 2250. Mr Scott: That will always be a problem
for us all. People have got used to GCSEs and so on. This is a language issue
to which we must adjust. I know the CCEA has recently issued a leaflet to help
employers understand
the various roles and comparators for qualifications so as to simplify it for
the man in the street. 2251. Mr Dallat: Do you accept that there is
a need for plain English now? 2252. Mr Scott: Absolutely. We all wish that,
and we all want to make it a way of achieving parity of esteem between the various
types of qualifications. 2253. Mr Dallat: I shall commit the deadly sin
of asking you if there is equal recognition of NTOs and STCs by employers and
training organisations in and outside of Northern Ireland. Will the NTOs continue
to be recognised for national occupational standards and NVQ purposes? If you
have retained all that up to now, will the proposed consultative forum take
on any responsibility for accreditation or the recognition of training qualifications? 2254. Mr Scott: The first and last parts of your question seem rather intertwined,
since they concern qualifications. We have a totally open mind on what
results from the consultation. However, we bear very much in mind that Northern
Ireland is different from the rest of the UK, just as Scotland and Wales are
different, and that there are a number of specific things we may need to do.
For example, if you look at the documentation, you shall see it suggests an
NTO might consist of up to 500,000 employees. There are around 650,000 people
working in Northern Ireland, and if we have 73 NTOs, that figure seems rather
high. 2255. Simplification
may well be needed in Northern Ireland. Our policy on qualifications is to continue
to keep them at a national level, largely because of that scale. To have separate
qualifications right across the various skill sectors for Northern Ireland alone
could be quite intensive as regards labour application and resources. Again, however,
we are open-minded on where that takes us. 2256. I thought that when you said
neutral qualification, you were going to lead me into a North-South discussion,
because we have been working on that front to ensure that qualifications gained
in both jurisdictions can be recognised. 2257. Mutual
recognition by English employers and Northern Irish employers is an issue because
those are voluntary organisations. You cannot force employers to become part
of them or force them to recognise them because they work on a voluntary basis.
Because of the different circumstances in Northern Ireland - the skills work
we are having to do and indeed the pool of the Irish labour market in a number
of sectors - encouraging employers is not the best that we can do. We are also
trying to take alongside the central view of what those skills issues might
be. 2258. Mrs Carson: Thank you very much. The information
that we got before the meeting said that the agenda for this arrangement
in NTOs has now changed. It is proposed that, instead of the establishment
of an overarching body, a consultative forum will be established. Who
has proposed this? 2259. It
is also stated that the reasons for that proposal are linked largely to funding
implications. Was it funding considerations alone which contributed to the decision
not to establish the council? 2260. Mr Scott: In a previous consultative document
which was issued nationally, it was indicated that Northern Ireland would set
up a central organisation to manage the umbrella group of NTOs operating here.
The Northern Ireland Training Council Association, which was the umbrella body
for all STCs, was already in operation. I am trying to get away from the alphabet
soup for the moment, but that was already in operation and covered the whole
private sector. 2261. It
was considered in consultation with the various sectors that to form another
body with another secretariat, including an umbrella body for a group of STCs
as part of its membership, would just be confusing. We have formed the consultative
committee to try to reach a clear view on where we go in Northern Ireland in
relation to NTOs. They are all in the same room now and are all talking about the same issues.
If that leads to a further proposal for some sort of overarching body,
we shall certainly consider it. 2262. We
want to see the outcome of the current round of consultations before we make
any final decision. We
have no proposal at present beyond the consultative forum. 2263. Mrs Carson: Do you make a proposal, or
do you make a decision? 2264. Mr Scott: In what context? 2265. Mrs Carson: If it is decided, will your
grouping get the
consultative body? Can they decide what is being done, or can they make a proposal
to someone else? 2266. Mr Scott: Yes. Since Ms McGill and I are
both in that part
of the Department, we are mainly concerned with helping ensure that sectors,
companies and others with skill needs have a direct line into the Department
through us. 2267. They
can make proposals without difficulty. We are not in any way bound to accept
the proposals. Our job
is rather about reaching accommodation with people and helping them along
a particular route. 2268. Ms McGill: At the last consultative forum meeting,
all the members were particularly interested in getting the outcome of the consultation
exercise which has taken place across the entire UK. Once these are known, we
will be able to proceed with decisions. 2269. Mrs Carson: The proposals then come back
to the Department. Are elected people also part of the consultation? 2270. Mr Scott: No, with the exception of our
normal relationship with elected representatives. 2271. In
the Programme for Government and your look at our budget, you gave us some sort
of authority to get
on with the job. Such consultations would embrace a level of working
detail. However, in the case of a policy decision in relation to the outcome of consultation, you would
come to the Assembly Committee. 2272. Mrs Carson: That was what I was trying
to tease out, Mr Chairman. 2273. Mrs Nelis: Good afternoon. I find this
all very confusing, but if I give it some close reading I might come to some
kind of understanding. Are the strategies you have talked about here today -
the development of skills training in the North of Ireland - not going to proceed
along a route similar to that of the United Kingdom? That would mean via STCs
rather than NTOs. Can assurances be given that that will not be in any way detrimental
to the development and provision of skills training? 2274. If
we are not to proceed along the United Kingdom route, shall we proceed at all along a cross-border
one? Already I see that, in the recognition of exams, there is a need for mutually
accepted vocational qualifications, and people are already doing them.
There is mutual recognition of NVQs and their Irish equivalents, and that has
been achieved in several skill areas; and further recognitions are expected.
We must be very clear
about certain developments and we certainly need clarification of where
we are going - for employers as well as trainees. 2275. Mr Scott: Perhaps I might take the latter
part of your comment
first. On the question of mutual recognition, you understand that NVQs
are for England, Wales and Northern Ireland, Scotland having its own system.
When we get mutual recognition to the point where we have reached agreement,
it becomes an East/West issue in the sense that then the qualifications authority
and the awarding body in England must then agree on mutual recognition. However,
to date we have not had any difficulty whatsoever with that. 2276. Of
course there is the wider issue that our young people are working more and more in mainland Europe,
never mind throughout Ireland, and mutual recognition across the Continent is
becoming an issue. We bear all that in mind as we move forward, and on an individual
basis we are working through various sectors to look at mutual recognition. Plumbing
and electrical engineering each have mutual recognition since there has
always been a great deal of movement North and South in those sectors. 2277. We
are trying to ensure that the Skills Task Force creates various kinds of work
and identifies the wider needs in Northern Ireland. We think the STCs and the
private sector could help us with the other micro needs and enhance our knowledge
of them. Working jointly across the spectrum, we are trying to get it right. 2278. We
believe that our responses are more flexible and quicker than England or Wales,
for we are nearer the market. We do not intend slavishly to follow what happens
in England, Wales or Scotland. We have regard to them in our policy making,
and we have demonstrated that through a number of projects where we run training
programmes unique in the UK. We look at the work of our colleagues in Foras
Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS) in the Republic of Ireland. We have just been to New
York with them, and there is also an element of co-operation in that respect. 2279. The Chairperson: It seems to me that there
is a fundamental
issue here. What is the best way of determining the skills gaps, both now and
forthcoming? Is it by a top-down process or one from the grass roots?
Does it originate with the sectors or the employers? I put it in those terms
since in the UK-wide document, NTOs are seen as taking on three core roles - assessing and articulating
the current and future skills needs of their sectors, leading action on sector skills
development and
actively reviewing progress in meeting skills priorities. 2280. You
were saying earlier, Mr Scott, that from the T&EA point of view there is
an "agnosticism" about where this process ends. However, it strikes me that,
if Northern Ireland were to follow that sort of practice, it would really imply
that NTOs required a very wide range of powers. 2281. They
would become correspondingly strong. As I understand it to some extent that
would differ, from the current means that the T&EA has set up to try and
identify the skills gap, which seem to be fairly centralised at the agency.
I am not saying any of this necessarily by way of criticism; it is more a description
of how I see matters have worked out. Tell me if I am wrong. 2282. It
may well be - and I should be interested in your view on this - that the UK-wide
view on the broader role of NTOs is simply unrealistic. I understand that there
is some evidence that NTOs in Great Britain have not worked well because private
sector employees cannot really be persuaded to participate to any great extent
or provide much by way of market intelligence. There is a fundamental issue
of how far the identification
of the gap should be centralised in the T&EA. How far do you allow it to
develop in the sectors before feeding back to yourselves? There is also
the question of feasibility. Does a market-led, private-sector approach to
the identification of skills gaps - based on the experience in Great Britain
to date - necessarily work? 2283. Mr Scott: There is room for both approaches.
There is clear potential for sound research-based information to tell us where
Northern Ireland plc is going regarding future skills needs. Some of those skills
needs may not be readily identified on the shop floor - at company level - since
companies are looking at their needs for the immediate future. Who would have
predicted that the telecommunications industry would change so much over five
years? 2284. There
is room for both. That is where we should like to end up - with a strong research-based,
labour market information needs system, backed up by industry telling us where
we have got it wrong and right and where it sees things going in general. That
adds value to what is otherwise just a set of figures. That is where we should
like to be at some point with the Skills Task Force. That is why it has decided
to begin looking at sectoral organisations and work with them to see where we
might take this. I do not know whether that answers your question. 2285. The Chairperson: It does. Thank you. Are there any other
questions? 2286. Mr Dallat: You made some small reference
to lifelong learning.
Can we assume that, for some people, life really will begin at 40? That
is my awkward way of saying that we have a birthday girl in the room today who
needs reassurance that this is the case. 2287. Mr Scott: We shall try to reassure her about that. 2288. Mr Byrne: We had people from Shorts Bombardier
here recently, and they had a good story to tell about how the company is performing
- how employment is expanding, and how they have an in-house training scheme.
We were all impressed by what we heard. Will the T&EA, as part of its
consultative work, look at the good practice of those who have employer-led
schemes, perhaps learning from them and trying to apply the generic benefits
which can accrue right across the region? 2289. Mr Scott: Undoubtedly. We have worked
extremely closely with Shorts Bombardier in recent years and helped the company with its current expansion.
I should like to think it would acknowledge that quite positively. It has been a
good story of partnership between government and a company, not only to expand
its workforce, but to widen it. We have all learned a great deal. We
have worked with other companies who have difficulty in finding and retaining
staff. We are working
with a number of such companies at the moment to develop in-house lifelong learning and workplace
learning possibilities. 2290. As
much as we can, we love to hear about and follow good practice. However, we
are conscious that Northern Ireland is a small-business economy, and not every
small business can afford all the structures which go along with best practice.
We keep that in mind as we develop our approach to the matter. 2291. Mr Byrne: Mr Chairman, that is the real
challenge. If you look through the written evidence submitted today, you will
see it is probably the SMEs which are losing out at present. That is why we
need a statutory umbrella organisation for training which can facilitate their
needs. I agree with you that SMEs do not have the resources or man hours to
devote to training people on the job. The T&EA has a real responsibility
to meet their needs. 2292. Mr Scott: The issue of a statutory authority
is clearly not for us. When we finish the consultation, there may be proposals
and recommendations about that. However, we are conscious that simply translating
or parachuting the NTO regime into Northern Ireland may not always work - for
the simple reason that we do not have enough big companies to sustain it. For
example, the training council for the engineering industry includes British
Aerospace and all the large car companies. They can generate a great deal of
high level business. The local Engineering Training Council has done very well
considering that it is made up mainly of small companies. 2293. Mr Carrick: Has anything been learned
from the experience of having 13 NTOs in Northern Ireland and the fact that
only one of them is statutory? 2294. Mr Scott: As there is such a difference
between construction and other industries it is difficult to make a decent comparison.
One reason why the Construction and Industry Training Board (CITB) is still
a statutory body is that labour subcontracting in the industry means that there
are no employers to train those who need it. The impact of health and safety
issues on training in construction is so powerful that to minimise accidents,
it is essential that people be trained to the right level. The fragmented nature
of the industry was a strong argument for keeping the CITB. That argument does
not apply equally across all of the sectors, and it is difficult to make a comparison. 2295. The Chairperson: The other interesting
thing about the CITB is that it kept the levy. Correct me if I am wrong, but
I do not think that any other sectors have a levy arrangement. There is an argument
- I suppose there is an economic theory behind it - that the training market
does not work well if it is left to private sector incentives, because employers
say, "Why should I train employees when they will only be poached by other companies?"
That was the logic used in the past to justify levies. Perhaps this is an unfair
question, but I shall ask it anyway. Do you have any comments on the issue of
introducing a new carrot-and-stick approach to give employers either positive
or negative incentives to train? 2296. Mr Scott: I shall try not to be too opinionated,
for the Committee will have its own thoughts. Leaving aside what happened in
Great Britain, the experience that led to the wind-up of the industry training
boards in Northern Ireland was that, with relatively small sectors, the cost
of managing the levy's collection from a sector's employers was 20% to 25% of
the income. That was then given back to employers in grant form. You were basically
taking money from people and then returning it, having added little value. 2297. Another
issue was that many of the training boards worked on what they called a levy
remission system. They paid their money and then got it back if they had a training plan
that satisfied the training board. The cost of policing that was enormous, so
it was not always particularly effective. That is the experience of the
past. 2298. There
are some pilot schemes in parts of England where local employers' groups are coming together
to ensure that, if poaching occurs, the employee who leaves takes a bounty
with them. The investment in training is measured, and members of such consortia
actually exchange money to account for the cost of training when employees move. 2299. We
await the outcome of those voluntary pilots. 2300. The Chairperson: The following picks one
anecdotal case, albeit concerning what was in the past a significant employer.
Half the workers in Harland & Wolff were literally flown in from Scotland
and the north of England. That begs the question - why did Harland & Wolff
not train Northern Ireland people to be fitters and so on, as opposed to flying
people in? I suppose the answer is probably that it was cheaper, but such practices
obviously create problems for the economy as a whole. 2301. Mr Scott: It was not just an issue of
people being cheaper. We engaged with Harland & Wolff on a number of occasions
to train local people for the industry. Harland & Wolff decided to have
a core group of skilled people, with contractors handling the rest. People in
Northern Ireland were not used to the idea of working a given number of weeks
at a time, so the people from England would come from an oil rig, work for Harland
& Wolff, and go back. That transfer caused the problem as much as anything
else. 2302. Mr Beggs: I accept that there are 73 NTO
bodies but, since Northern Ireland is much smaller, it would be difficult for
all 73 to operate here. There are, however, 15 NTO groups. Is there not some
logic in changing the STCs into NTO groups so that the entire area of training
would be covered? At present many areas are not covered. 2303. Mr Scott: The STCs in Northern Ireland
see themselves as independent of the NTO. 2304. Mr Beggs: But are they not dated? We are
talking about 10 years ago. 2305. Mr Scott: If they simply became part of
the NTOs they might say that some of their Northern Ireland flavour would be lost. They would have
to make that decision in full knowledge of all the circumstances. Where there
is no STC, however, we are happy to see what develops in relation to
the amalgamation of NTOs in Northern Ireland. If, for example, there were one
NTO for the whole of the voluntary sector, it would make life much easier for
everybody. To be fair, the way in which the voluntary sector works to achieve
co-operation in Northern Ireland would mean it might not be difficult. The difficulty
is with all other sectors. 2306. Mr Beggs: Is there any self-interest in
the STCs' continuing without evolving? Are they the right people to make that
decision? 2307. Mr Scott: They are neither the right nor
the only people to make that final decision. We shall be informed by consultation
in the document. If the opinion is overwhelmingly that they should do something,
we would implement an agreed policy to encourage them to fit in with it. 2308. The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee,
I thank you both. Our talk has been extremely helpful, and we are very grateful
to you. We have managed to get through most of the matters we wanted to discuss,
but we may wish to submit some written questions. Thank you very much. We wish
you well. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 29 March 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr R Hutchinson Ms McWilliams Witness: Mr H Hastings ) Hastings
Hotels Group 2309. The Chairperson: Good afternoon and thank
you for coming along. I apologise for the number of members present; I do not
think it has anything to do with today's subject matter. It is related to all
sorts of things beyond our control. 2310. As
you know, the Committee is conducting a general inquiry into the adequacy, or
otherwise, of the training
system in the context of economic development and industry in the Province. The Committee appreciates
that hotel and catering makes up a large sector with huge growth potential. 2311. Mr Hastings: Thank you for inviting me
along this afternoon. I am delighted that the Committee has recognised the value
of tourism within the economy and the influence of the education sector in contributing
to its success. 2312. I
am Howard Hastings, the managing director of Hastings Hotels. We have six hotels
in Northern Ireland and one in the South. I am also president of the Northern
Ireland Hotels Federation, and I served on the Training and Employment Agency
(T&EA) board for seven years, up until earlier this year. I am a board member
of Investors in People UK, which I believe is probably a standard with which
members of this Committee are already familiar. I am a former governor of
Castlereagh College of Further Education, and, of less interest to this Committee,
I am a member of the joint North/South marketing body, Tourism Ireland Ltd. 2313. I
have given you details of what Hastings Hotels is about in the briefing pack.
The company has 850 full-time and between 850 and 1,000 part-time staff. Of
the full-time staff, 25% would have post-second level qualifications. We have
had people qualify with NVQs from levels 1 to 5 in the company, and we are the
only company in our sector that is licensed by the T&EA to offer modern
apprenticeship programmes in-house. We spend approximately 5% of our payroll
annually on training and development within the company. 2314. The
terms of the Committee's brief are wide, so I am going to give a snapshot on
how my company interfaces with the various constituent elements of the Government
sectors that are the subject of your scrutiny. I will now briefly address the
five points I noted on the front of my submission. The first is our company's
interface with higher education. 2315. We run two group-wide management
development programmes each year. The first one has about 20 participants
and offers successful candidates an NVQ level 3 together with a certificate
in management practice. The second one is smaller at a higher level and offers
10 participants an NVQ level 4 together with a diploma in management practice
if they pass. These courses cost between £1,000 and £1,500 per candidate. 2316. The
programme was designed to meet the company's needs and was tendered to the marketplace.
The contract was awarded to the University of Ulster at Jordanstown, to the School
of Business and Management, which delivers the programme in conjunction
with the School of Hospitality and its cohort of lecturing staff. This collaboration
has worked well for us, and I believe it is unique in this sector. Interestingly,
a recent evaluation of the School of Hospitality gave it a score of 23 out of
24, which I believe in university terms is a remarkable accolade. So it shows
what the School of Hospitality at the University of Ulster is capable of delivering
both for undergraduates and for those in the industry alike. 2317. Broadening
that subject, I think it is bizarre that the university vice-chancellor, Gerry McKenna, appears
to be ignoring industry advice and - without a great deal of consultation
with either the industry or with his high performing staff - is looking to relocate
the School of Hospitality to Coleraine to become a subset of the biosciences
faculty. I am sorry if I am offending anyone, but I am just telling it as I
see it. 2318. My
company's interface with further education is poor because further education
does not perceive me as its customer. The funding that the hospitality sector
gets from Government is apparently £12 million per annum. Colleges offer courses
that suit them and the Government to run, and too few of those students ever
turn up on my payroll. That is to be regretted. 2319. For
instance, colleges apparently run 26 types of course at NVQ level 3. This provision is ill co-ordinated
and ill-marketed, albeit that the Department of Higher and Further Education,
Training and Employment (DHFETE) inspectors say that it is well delivered. Colleges
do not know where their students go and are not rewarded for their ability to
make their charges employable or to secure them employment. My contact with
colleges - or those parts of DHFETE that fund colleges - is infrequent. To claim
that the £12 million spend is on the hospitality sector is, I believe, bogus
because the outputs are so ill-defined. 2320. This
will only change when the funding mechanisms enable myself, my company, and
other companies in my sector to become customers. I do not believe that we,
as a sector, have all the answers to our own training requirements, but the current arrangements
do not encourage companies to take ownership and responsibility for their own
training. That is the key to delivering better results in this area. 2321. I
will move onto the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and
Employment and the Department of Education issues affecting the company. What
we increasingly find is that we are in conflict with further education as we
are in competition with them
to attract school leavers. Therefore further education would not encourage
our industry to develop good relationships with secondary education, because
it would be in danger of having the bread taken from its mouth, as far as funding
is concerned. 2322. Within the Department of
Education for Northern Ireland system, there is insufficient GNVQ provision
for those wishing to take the vocational route into the hospitality industry,
a sector which is set to grow. Interestingly, to overcome this problem, I have
been working on a pilot project with the South Eastern Education and Library
Board, called Learning Through Work. In some companies in the North Down area,
including Valpar, Munster Simms and the Ulster Hospital Trust, we replaced the
traditional week-long student placement with one where students could go one
day a week to the company, for a period of perhaps six or seven weeks. During
that time they were able to gain accreditation for part of the GNVQ that they
are doing in company and in school time. 2323. The
students undertaking this course have had a much higher level of motivation
than those doing the traditional week-long work placement. There has been a
full evaluation of the scheme by Cecil Holmes of the Northern Ireland Council
for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment. Perhaps that is something
that your members might wish to follow up. There is a better way to encourage
the secondary school sector to engage with industry at an earlier stage, but
it will require an impetus to allow for space for this in the curriculum. 2324. As regards in-company trading,
and our relationship with the Training and Employment Agency, the Committee
will be familiar with the company development programme, which is the keynote
line of expenditure which would affect our company. This has proved to be a
good model for our industry. It comes back to the ownership point, which I made
earlier, where one agrees a plan with the Training and Employment Agency in
advance, and sets about delivering it. 2325. The
initial rate of funding at 35% to 40% was more appropriate because the Training and Employment
Agency was paying on outcomes. One has to take account of the attrition level
that exists because of employees that are taken on and trained but for one reason
or another do not provide outcomes. 2326. The Chairperson: Who administers the company development
programme? Generally it would be the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment
rather than the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment.
Is it the same in the hospitality sector? 2327. Mr Hastings: It is now the responsibility
of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, but the same personnel
that used to work in the Training and Employment Agency administer it. For newcomers,
one of the downsides of the new arrangements is that there is a little
confusion about who administers it, as the staff in the business support division
of the Training and Employment Agency transferred across to the Department of
Enterprise, Trade and Investment. The valuable part is that the company owns the
training.
The downside is that the company development programme is now very thinly
spread, and the assistance rate is now down to an average of 20%, which, therefore,
no longer encourages companies to take on new projects aggressively. 2328. The
other problem that bedevils our sector is the unwillingness of the company development programme to
fund the same thing second time around. I constantly have new recruits coming
on who need new training. They go on to other places. Therefore the training
that we do benefits the whole of industry. We sometimes feel unfairly penalised
for not being allowed to go back and do more of the same, which would continue
to benefit the industry. 2329. Modern
apprenticeship programmes are the other element of T&EA funding and are
a good model of a way forward. Companies can engage in the knowledge that the
outcomes are what will be rewarded in an open and clear way. At any point in
time, we have around 24 modern apprentices at the Hastings hotels. Again, we
would have an attrition rate amongst starters there. In particular, what we
find is that those who achieve level 2 suddenly make themselves very marketable,
the programme is geared to deliver up to NVQ level 3. However, we have had difficulty
in retaining such staff, albeit they are capable of going further. The funding
mechanism does not perhaps take into account the level of attrition that exists
in that programme. It is a good programme. At the start the administration was
cumbersome but is now improving. The T&EA appears to recognise that and
is to be praised for that. 2330. I
have made a note about raising the profile of the hospitality industry. We suffer
more than some sectors, although every sector has its good employers and its
less good employers - it does not matter whether you are in manufacturing, retail
or hospitality. Hospitality has suffered an image problem more than most in
the same way that many people equate the manufacturing industry with what they
see in Mike Baldwin's workshop in 'Coronation Street'. Equally, the hospitality
sector has been informed variously by people viewing 'Fawlty Towers' or the
fly-on-the-wall documentary at the Adelphi Hotel. With real tyrannical chefs like Gordon Ramsay
and imaginary tyrannical chefs like Lenny Henry, these images are only reinforced
by individuals' own recollections of working as casual staff maybe 20 years
ago, or more in some cases. Our answer to that is not poster campaigns.
It will be long, hard and slow work. 2331. Interestingly,
what we find is that secondary school and grammar school pupils are now more attracted by recent
media images such as the 'Ready, Steady, Cook' programme. They are more aware
of leisure facilities in the sector. Also, they are attracted to the high-tech
IT environments of front office and reception work. Therefore the marketing
that we do is as much directed at the parents as at those wishing to come into
the industry. To capitalise on this, we at Hastings Hotels no longer welcome
whole classes of students into the hotels, rather we will attend the schools
and make presentations to those classes. 2332. For
those who wish to know more, we invite them to spend an evening in the hotel with fellow students
from other schools, although they cannot attend unless they are accompanied
by their parents. We give them interactive demonstrations and also break them
into small groups to encourage the sorts of questions that they have about the
industry, which they would not ask in fear of peer pressure. We show them around
the hotels, including the kitchens, the laundries and all those places that
people think resemble the Black Hole of Calcutta. We show them that it is maybe
not that way any
more. This is also a good development activity for the staff who are
engaged in delivering this for the students and their parents. We deliver this
programme twice each year at all of our hotels. More than 1,000 students and
parents have been through this system, which is slowly but surely starting to
raise the image of the industry and redress some of the image problems. Members
of this Committee are more than welcome to come along to one of these evenings
to see for themselves. I extend that invitation. 2333. The Chairperson: That is extremely helpful.
Thank you for that and, indeed, for the written material as well. 2334. Mr Byrne: I welcome Mr Hastings and
I congratulate him on what his company is doing to improve the image of the
hotel and catering industry. It is very worthwhile. Given the fact that there
is this whole change in training people for the industry, there are also professional
managers who often go on to do HNDs and degrees in hotel and catering management.
That seems to be largely successful in producing the right image and well-qualified
people. 2335. However,
as I understand it, there was always very strong practical skills training in
the past where students went to further education and followed what was called
the 705/706 City and Guilds practical skills training. I would like to invite
comment about practical skills training and how that is going. Is that being
handled by the modern apprenticeships? Can I invite the witness to comment on
the Shannon College of Hotel Management, the Cathal Brugha Street Catering College
at the Dublin Institute of Technology and the Killybegs Tourism College? What sort of qualifications
do they cover? In
the past they taught City and Guilds-based practical skills and then
they had a degree. Can he also comment on the specialist training for those
who want to be chefs in terms of advanced culinary skills? 2336. Mr Hastings: That is an all-encompassing
question. You are right to identify the traditional split, albeit slightly narrower
now, between management and craft training. It is very hard for people to succeed
right the way through the industry if they have not engaged in the craft-training
element. Part of what makes them better managers in our industry is that they
started and completed proper craft training. 2337. Craft
training and the 705 or 706/1 and 706/2 qualifications you mentioned are now
largely related to the equivalent NVQ level 2 or 3. They would be delivered
by that £12m of further education funding that I mentioned. 2338. Mr Byrne: How do NVQ levels 2 and 3 compare
with the City and Guilds 705 and 706? 2339. Mr Hastings: My evidence is scant because
I do not see a sufficient number of those people coming to work for me, but the impression
is that it has become more generalist. It is described as being for the
hospitality industry, but I fear that too many of the graduates of those programmes
are ending up in what I call industrial catering - in hospitals, care institutions,
schools and places like that. 2340. We
are missing the type of skills you have identified, which are produced by places like Killybegs.
I am not so familiar with Cathal Brugha and Shannon, but they obviously enjoy
high reputations. Higher skills training, for example, for chefs, has been driven
in recent times by in-company training. That is to say, people wish to go and
work in the kitchens of those very fashionable and successful restaurants that
seem to have sprung up everywhere, and we should be grateful for it. Restaurants
have taken on the burden of bringing on the higher skills training. I do not
believe there is a huge provision at that higher level as there might have been
in years gone by. 2341. Mr Byrne: I have one supplementary question.
I think it is fair to say that many hotel managers came through the practical
and culinary skills background. I can remember two, a Mr Slevin and a Mr McGinn, whom I
am sure you are familiar with. Can you comment on the type of manager who comes through the practical
skills training and ends up as a hotel manager, and the other type, who
goes only to university to do a hotel management degree course? 2342. Mr Hastings: All the general managers
in each of our six hotels have come through the practical skills route. Therefore
it is slightly harder for me to comment on those who come through an academic route. Some
of our managers have acquired degrees and qualifications along the way,
but they have done their time on the craft end. I am sure Mr McGinn and Mr Slevin
will be more than delighted to have their names recorded in Hansard for posterity.
They have been very successful managers, originating from west of the Bann. 2343. What
the craft skills have given them is an entrepreneurial spirit that helps to make them successful
managers. Their familiarity with what goes on behind the hotplate, both with
customers and with the people working for them, is what is important. Ours is
an industry where someone coming along with purely academic experience will
struggle. Mr McGinn, who is the general manager at the Culloden Hotel, is the youngest
manager in the group and has a politics and sociology degree. However, at his mother's
knee, he was immersed in hospitality, and that experience stands to him
as much as the academic experience. 2344. Mrs Carson: It is always interesting to
hear the presentations and the problems that different industries are meeting.
I have just one question that has come up several times. What do you think of
the basic literacy and numeracy skills of the young people that are coming into
your employment? Do you have any problems there? What is your opinion of their
ability when they
come in? I am talking about people from your front desk right through to those
in the laundry room. 2345. I
was very pleased to see that you have got the parents in your sights as well.
That is important. In some of the other presentations, we found that the parents
had a great influence on the academic field of their children, and they seem
to want the easier option. We had some of the industries saying that they were
looking for chemistry but were getting arts. Has it helped you to retain staff,
having that liaison with the parents? I am very interested in basic literacy
and numeracy. 2346. Mr Hastings: The basic literacy and numeracy
is a very important point. The biggest core skill that we are looking for in
employees is communication skills. If they can present themselves orally, there
is very little that we cannot train or assess in other areas. We have had people
engaging in NVQs in the past, some of whom have held very senior positions.
It is only when you start to engage them in this development activity that you
learn that some of them have had problems with literacy skills in the past,
and we have moved to find different ways of assessing what we know they can
already do in order to make sure they are recognised at the level at which they
are able to work. We have not been sending people back for remedial training
in literacy and numeracy, but if people are able and willing to work at a certain
level, we will use assessment methods that are appropriate in order to make
sure that they can gain qualifications, very often qualifications that they
have missed out on in their previous formal education. 2347. I
am glad you picked up on the issue of parents. The point I was trying to make
is that young people can be turned on to hospitality as a career, but the evidence
from chatting to people from the Training and Employment Agency job offices
is that parents retain a veto over what their children will do, in the same
way that I was advised that ballet dancing was not for me. Some parents will
advise their children not to go into hospitality. If I have the student already
enthused, I need to recruit the parent as well so that their fears, which I
hope are often irrational, are addressed. 2348. Ultimately,
I am offering these young people places on modern apprenticeships, and so on.
These are young people who maybe have had a bad night out on a Sunday night.
I want their parents to be on my side, to say "That is a good job you have.
You are going in today".
That is the aim I have - to recruit the parents to be on my side, to encourage
and enthuse their youngsters as well. I cannot identify what overall
impact that has had on retention levels, but, clearly, the more I invest in
training and development, the more retention levels go up. People use different
measures, but the one that I use is the number of people working for me today
that were there at the same time last year. 2349. The
past three years have seen a huge rise in the number of jobs in the sector, with large premises opening
and competition coming in at a time when it would be feared that staff
would be lost to those new ventures. My retention levels over that period have
been between 66% and 70%. Although very few people publish their retention
levels, I believe that to be a credible figure. 2350. Mr Beggs: From your presentation, you
value training, both as an individual and as a company. You see benefits from
it for both your employees and your organisation. I was struck by your comments on NVQs,
which you use heavily in your training. If I have picked it up correctly,
there are 26 unco-ordinated courses. What mechanism, if any, currently exists to co-ordinate such courses? 2351. We
received evidence last week on National Training Organisation (NTO) and Sector Training Council
(STC) groups. It became very evident that there were a lot of sectors
where no one represented industry's input into the training system or ensured
that the training fulfilled industry needs. 2352. Is there a National Training
Organisation covering the Northern Irish hospitality sector? Is there
a national training sector group? Do you think that such a group would be an
advantage if it were set up in Northern Ireland? 2353. If
you believe that NVQs will continue to be a main plank of training in the industry
in the future, how should we all move forward to an interactive means of getting
industry's views in to the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) and in
to the NVQs themselves so that they will meet the needs of the companies and
individuals involved? 2354. Mr Hastings: You have touched on a very
valid point. The
best STCs or NTOs are those that are wholly owned, driven and run by the private
sector. Our sector is not sufficiently well organised or financed to
achieve that. That has bedevilled the T&EA's efforts to answer the question:
what is it that you need? Therefore that has contributed to the supply-side
solutions that we have in the further education sector. 2355. The
answer has been a publicly funded STC of sorts. The Tourism and Training Trust
(TTT) has been established. That operates a little like a sector training body,
except that it also includes wider Government representation. There is representation
from colleges, further and higher education, the T&EA, innkeepers, bed-and-breakfast
owners. Representation is both public and private. 2356. The
Tourism and Training Trust applies to the T&EA for a budget to do what it
wants. It is not a training provider itself, but it is supposed to sanction
the training that is going on. The trust has identified that we need more research
in that area. 2357. Research
has been commissioned on where students go, what their aspirations are within
the sector and what the range of available provision is. That work is commencing, but, as yet,
the TTT is not a homogeneous body. It is financed by time-bound European
funding. 2358. It is unclear to what extent
the TTT's recommendations will be binding on the T&EA. It was originally
envisaged that the TTT would also have direct influence over the Department
of Education, but that has not been the case in practice. There appears to be
no influence of the TTT over the £12 million spend by the Department. It is
a live question, but it is too early to answer it. 2359. Mr Dallat: I know you wear many hats,
and the one I would not attack you for is as managing director of the Hastings
Hotel Group. I have been in your hotels, and they are an absolute credit to
the tourism industry.
However, wearing your Tourism Ireland Limited hat, you are one of two very important
hoteliers, and your vision of tourism must extend from Belfast to Belcoo
and from Saintfield to Strabane. So why are you so set against the training
being established at probably the best university in western Europe? That deeply offended
a lot of people. 2360. Mr Hastings: The University of Ulster
is a very fine university, and it operates on many sites. The evidence shows that when
it put its provision in the north-west of the Province it attracted a lot of
people from the Province who then escaped it. Funding for training and
education should deliver more for the Province. Therefore there is a unique opportunity for the
University of Ulster to resite its school of hospitality in the centre of Belfast
where approximately 75% of the jobs exist, and, in conjunction with the
Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education and the Springvale project, to be able
to create a provision of craft and management training co-ordinated in
one hospitality school. That is not to deny the claims of Coleraine. It is a
lesser choice of site. If movement is to be made, the industry and those who
work for that department should be consulted. 2361. Mr Dallat: In Germany hotel workers are comprehensively
trained for three years and acquire a qualification that is highly valued by
employers. Can you give the Committee any further information or observations
on the German system? 2362. Mr Hastings: I do not have direct experience
of the German system, but it is a proper apprenticeship in the old-school style. It
is very thorough, very rigorous and very highly sought after with a lot of public
intervention to make it happen. In the modern apprenticeship programme
we offer a three-year programme leading to an NVQ level 3 in a work-related
environment. It may not deliver the highest standards of excellence that
you would get from an off-the-job programme, but it does develop skills that are required
for the industry at present. 2363. The
difficulty is that our industry has large and small organisations which are geographically dispersed.
That has led to the question of what you want from training. If more ownership
can be given to individual operators they will deliver for the industry what
they want for themselves and for their own businesses. That is a better model.
Research is ongoing to find out if we need a school of excellence for hospitality.
We have to work out what will deliver the industry's needs in the most cost-effective
way. 2364. Mr Dallat: Grant support has dropped from
40% to 20%. Is that an issue that we should address? 2365. Mr Hastings: I am not sure whether it
is within the remit of this Committee to examine the value of the company development
programme, but with regard to intervention to help business deliver on training
and development, it is something to consider. 2366. The Chairperson: Strictly speaking, it
would be in the remit of the Enterprise, Trade and Investment Committee. We
might want to make a recommendation to it and in turn to the Department of Enterprise,
Trade and Investment. 2367. Following
up on the previous question, my impression has been that over the years there
has been a number of consultancy reports on the quality of personnel in hotel,
catering and hospitality in general. They often come up with fairly negative
appraisals - terms like "a lack of professionalism" have sometimes been quoted. While it is
dangerous to resort to anecdotes, a number of people have commented to
me that they sometimes
get that impression. I am certainly not talking about your own group, but you
always hear the story of people sitting down to a meal and getting it
thrown down in front of them. I am not sure how you train people for this, but there may be issues of
excellence and even basic courtesy in the handling of customers. 2368. This leads to another specific
point, the availability of people who have foreign language skills, especially
French and German, to handle the increase in foreign visitors which we all hope
for. Do we have the capability to deal with people visiting Northern Ireland
who cannot speak English? 2369. Mr Hastings: You have raised two issues
- professionalism and customer care. It depends on the ability of entrepreneurs
to provide that. They all wish that their staff would be courteous and able
to greet everybody. However, this depends on what they can afford to do. I do
not want to divert the conversation on this, but we have seen in the last month
how the agricultural crisis has created an immediate cash flow shortage for
the hospitality sector. This is a time of the year when smaller units would
tend to do whatever work they intended to do such as refurbishing and gearing
up for the new season. Their cash flow is at its weakest at present, just when
they are ready for the season to begin. 2370. If
someone comes along, as has happened in the last month, and says that their
season is postponed by two months, that creates grave difficulties for them.
Those difficulties persuade those entrepreneurs, in order to survive, to become
very short term about their thinking. That means cutting out on some essentials,
not just luxuries. The first to go, I fear, are things like training. It is
a difficulty and is something I have said in other places. The bank manager
still needs paid at the end of the week, even if no one else does. I worry that
this sudden shift to "short termism" means that some customers may end up receiving
a lesser standard of service than they would expect and which the proprietors
would like them to receive. 2371. If
you ask people if they believe that their staff should be more professional,
they will all say "Yes". It is about aspiring to higher standards of professionalism. More
tourists coming from other destinations will, strangely enough, lead to higher standards of professionalism
as they explain to the proprietors the standards that they actually expect.
Many proprietors are underexperienced in what is expected, and that is not
meant to be a patronising remark. We are getting visitors from many more jurisdictions
than before. 2372. Regarding
language training, the Tourist Board has taken the lead on this in developing
a programme called Welcome Host, which is a generic customer care programme training staff
about the courtesies of meeting and greeting, and being aware of what
the local attractions are. The idea is that communication with the customer
can be improved. There are different strata to Welcome Host. One is about accessibility;
another is about language skills. There are a number of strands beyond the basic
award. Companies with more than 90% of their staff having gone through the programme are awarded
the Welcome Host Gold Award and a presentation takes place. The Tourist
Board is to be congratulated for that. 2373. Admittedly
we do not get large numbers of customers speaking foreign languages. If we got
the Czechoslovak football team we would not be able to gear up for them in short
order. I fear a mismatch, and I do not think that a great raft of supply-site Czechoslovak
language-skills training is going to cure this. We need to be careful as to
how we best direct the resources that are available to us. 2374. The Chairperson: Would it be the case
that in your hotel
group you could cater for the main European languages? 2375. Mr Hastings: A previous Minister, Mr Needham, once tried
it on by coming to the Stormont Hotel one evening with a French visitor. He
was not a great fan of the hotel and came in to give us a lot of grief. Happily,
our restaurant manager, who was born and bred on the Newtownards Road, was well
able for the customer, much to Mr Needham's chagrin. 2376. Ms McWilliams: Has competition from the
large international hotel groups such as Hilton and Raddison skilled-up or skilled-down
the industry? You make the point that they tried to aggressively poach your
staff from you. 2377. Mr Hastings: That is a good question.
I am not sure that I would be the best judge of that. Having a large number
of hotels with a critical mass of staff is beneficial to the industry as a whole
because the larger hotels tend to have more sophisticated management structures.
They also tend to have more sophisticated front-office demands. We would have
a greater pool of IT-trained front-office staff. That, in the longer term, has
to create a labour pool of more highly skilled people. 2378. It
has also created opportunities for middle management. One of the early surveys would have shown
that the industry was characterised by small owner-operated outlets for which the only possibility to achieve
what you wanted in management was to move away. The larger outlets have
now created an opportunity for managers to improve their skills. 2379. Entrants into the market
have received remarkable support from the Training and Employment Agency
in order to deliver
training. I do not know whether members of the Committee feel that the Training
and Employment Agency has had value for the level of intervention that
was delivered to those inward investing projects. 2380. The Chairperson: Would you like to hazard
a view on that as I suspect that is what Ms McWilliams's question is about? 2381. Mr Hastings: That is not fair, but I do
not mind your asking. 2382. Ms McWilliams: That was the first part
of my question. The second part is that in your submission you make a point
about them aggressively trying to poach your people and not succeeding. One
would be led to think that the remuneration and the opportunities were already
there in-house or that the attraction was not sufficient internationally from
the others to take your staff away from you. Is that still the case? 2383. Mr Hastings: People did move across to
the new establishments. It is attractive to be part of an international group
with opportunities to live and work abroad as time goes on. Undoubtedly that
is one of the attractions of joining a multinational group. I feared that we
would lose many more than we did. We must be doing something right because we
have retained those who are still working for us. 2384. I
suspect that for some people living in the Province and working for multinational
chains here it is better that they have opportunities to travel and work within
the group. Before the arrival of the multinationals, they did not have
that option. 2385. Ms McWilliams: The wage
councils obviously apply to this industry, and I note that you made a point
about European Directives. This is not a European Directive; it is a domestic
directive. Has the minimum wage improved the industry and the skill levels? 2386. Mr Hastings: There are
two answers to that. One is that the more exacting the minimum wage becomes,
the more proprietors will seek to gain additional productivity from the staff
who work for them. It is a spur to higher standards. You need to be employing
people who can work at a level that commands the wages on offer. The corollary
to that - this is anecdotal - is that I get many more people who want to come
and work asking what the remuneration "in one's hand" is. Obviously an organisation
like ours does not make payments "in one's hand". At one level, it has probably
spurred some employers on to gaining greater productivity and skill levels from
those working for them, but at another level there are probably sectors of the
hospitality industry that are more inclined to be tempted by the black economy. 2387. Mr Byrne: Is the culture
of customer care and hospitality in catering generally improving in Northern
Ireland? How far
do we lag behind international standards? 2388. Mr Hastings: Generally,
it is improving. With my Irish tourism hat on, I can say that one of the fears
of the Southern part of the jurisdiction is that the worth of the Irish welcome
has been lost because it has not been able to recruit and retain sufficient
numbers of indigenous staff. It has supplemented its staff with European and
other imports in order to fill the demand for staff in the rapidly growing tourism
economy. 2389. We get very high ratings
from visitors coming to the jurisdiction. What we may sometimes lack in professionalism,
we make up for in natural warmth and friendliness. That has long been recognised.
I also believe that as a jurisdiction, we beat ourselves up terribly and do
not sufficiently celebrate what we are good at. Each person's perception is
different when one travels. I am not aware of any qualitative surveys that have
been done which include Northern Ireland, but I believe that we are capable
of delivering standards of service to international visitors which are very
often in excess of what they expect. 2390. The Chairperson:
That is a good note to finish on. Thank
you very much, Mr Hastings, for the presentation, the question session
and the written evidence for our inquiry. That was a very helpful discussion
and quite amusing in places, which always helps us to get through the business.
We wish you and the company well in the future. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 29 March 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mr Dallat Mr R Hutchinson Ms McWilliams Witnesses: Mrs J Trewsdale
) Northern Ireland Economic Council Mr A Gough
) 2391. The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee,
I welcome Mrs Janet Trewsdale and Mr Aidan Gough, the chairman and
acting director of the Northern Ireland Economic Council, respectively. 2392. This
is the second time you have given formal evidence to the Committee. We are looking at the impact
of the training system and research and development within the university context.
One of the things we want to talk about is the report that you commissioned
from Michael Best, 'The Capabilities and Innovation Perspective: The Way Ahead
in Northern Ireland' (the Best Report). Mr Byrne and I had the pleasure of attending
the session in Queen's University at which Mr Best discussed his paper, and
we both found it extremely interesting. We felt that it would be valuable to
table that report, along with other things, in the Committee today. 2393. Mrs Trewsdale: We also found the seminar
useful. It is a difficult paper to read and understand. It is a very dense paper,
to which Mr Best brings life when he explains it. 2394. I
thank the Committee for its invitation to appear here. We are happy to provide
what help we can in
furthering the discussion and information on economic topics. Normally
we prefer to comment on reports that we have completed and published on specific
issues. In this case, we wish to confine our comments directly to the relevant
issues that have arisen out of the Best Report. 2395. The Chairperson: Yes, that will be all
right. 2396. Mrs Trewsdale: I will not try to perform
Mr Best's hand gestures. In the opinion of the Council, however, the attainment
of his "virtuous circle", in which a growing economy helps to generate the resources
and opportunities to tackle social exclusion, should be an important strategic
objective of Government. He details three key issues - the business model,
production capabilities and skill formation. He sees those as three interlocking
circles. In other words, they are all feeding around each other. Transformational
growth of the type that is required to increase GDP per head in Northern Ireland,
as called for by 'Strategy 2010', requires integrated action across those three
domains. They are not three separate areas operating in isolation. 2397. Professor
Best's other key message is that skill formation for the transitions that are
taking place in technology should be anticipated. The region should not just simply be reactive
to what is currently happening, but should attempt to anticipate future
changes and therefore be ready for them. Doing that creates a simple comparative
advantage over other regions that do not anticipate those changes. 2398. Best also argues that we
have world-class research facilities in several areas in the two universities
in Northern Ireland, but he sees the university/business partnerships as being
too few. He does not say that they are non-existent, but that they are too few.
Best also says that the FE colleges in Northern Ireland are currently enjoying
little guidance, particularly in the crucial area of manpower planning. 2399. Those
are the two key areas. Both Professor Best and the Northern Ireland Economic Council recognise
that investment in skills is costly. What we are suggesting is not cheap.
If you are to get a return on your investment, it is important that you match
the demand for skills from firms that advance technology with the supply that is going through
the educational institutions. It is a case of matching what education
is producing with
what is being demanded by increasing technology. 2400. Best
acknowledges that that might sound as though we are talking simply about further
and higher education. He takes it down a step and says that we are looking for
co-ordination between employers and teachers at all levels, right through to
and including the education authorities. That is one of the key priorities in
developing the active partnership idea. 2401. Ms McWilliams: Professor Best drew on
his experience in Massachusetts, and he talks about the three partners. We know
that it is being done, it can be done and it could be replicated. Would you
like to comment on that? 2402. Ms Trewsdale: Best gives the demand for
engineering/technology graduates by the new high technology firms as a key example.
Co-operation between the firms, including those investing, and the local universities
was necessary. The firms did not say, "We need such-and-such, please produce
it". They were prepared to put money into the universities in order to increase
the ratio of staff to students. Staff had to be put into universities to produce
the graduates for the firms. That is where the firms were prepared to help,
and Professor Best has the data that shows a substantive rise in the number
of engineering and technology graduates that were produced. 2403. Ms McWilliams: Endowments here tend to
be made through chairs, rather than posts at the more junior level. In the past,
private industry has either set up a new type of chair, or put a few extra chairs
in for research purposes. Numbers of teaching staff here tend to be driven by
the quantities of graduates wishing to study. Best is talking about a different
approach, where the firms come in and say "We will set aside a substantial sum
to recruit these staff". That is a different type of experience. 2404. American
experience lends itself to that - or has done so in the past. You are talking
about a cultural and organisational change. Has the Northern Ireland Economic Council (NIEC) had
discussions with university leaders? 2405. Mrs Trewsdale: Not directly. The idea
was that in some
cases, employees of the firms themselves should enter universities to
help with the practical teaching side. It is a two-way flow, which occurs in
Northern Ireland to a certain extent
through the teaching company scheme. However, we have not been in direct negotiations
with the two universities on the issue. As you say, there are examples both
at Queen's and the University of Ulster of firms which have donated money for
named chairs, which they see as prestigious. Neither of the universities would
be averse if a company came along with several hundred thousand pounds for the
purpose of employing more lecturers. It is a matter of getting them to do it. 2406. Mr Gough: The three key elements are the firms, the educational
institutions and Government funding. Even in Massachusetts, the key funder was the Government
rather than firms. Best cites other examples such as Taiwan, Singapore and the
Republic of Ireland where that was also true. 2407. Ms McWilliams: I understood that, but
I also understood that it was very much the firms themselves, in partnership
with the Government, who took the initiative. Our tendency here has been for the Government to promote
and encourage firms to do that. Much of the teaching company and business education
partnerships have sent the teachers out, but the flip side - sending the companies
in - has not happened. From what I understand, it is an experience that we could
learn a great deal from. 2408. Mr Gough: He quotes another example, the
Questor Centre at Queen's. One reason he liked that model was the way it brought
companies in and sent students out; it was a two-way process. 2409. Mr Beggs: At an Industrial Development
Board seminar I attended about six months ago, the deputy principal of a local
further education college stood up to say how pleased he was to be there, for
it was the first time he had ever been invited to an event connected with the
board. There seems to be a clear need to improve links between industry and
the further education sector. If I am not mistaken, you said in your report
that you are considering undertaking research into further education and economic
development, or at least recommending that there be increased monitoring of
the area. Have you done it? Are you, or anyone else, currently carrying out
work on assessing the links between the further education sector and industry? 2410. Mr Gough: We have not started it, although
it is on our work programme. The NIEC will soon be discussing whether to take
that project forward. I know that some work has been carried out in the South
on the institutes of technology, which have a key role in economic development.
In Michael Best's report, the lack of guidance for the Northern Ireland further education
sector came out very strongly. I remember that it struck him very forcefully
when we were meeting people. 2411. Mr Beggs: How far away is your own report?
Might it be longer than six months or a year? 2412. Mr Gough: The NIEC has not even discussed
whether it will take it forward yet. 2413. Mr Beggs: I am sorry. I see that it is
in the early stages. Do you recognise that it is an important area for you to
consider? 2414. Mr Gough: Absolutely. 2415. Mr Dallat: How badly are further education
colleges out of synch with the needs of industry? I should appreciate a frank
answer, for we hear criticism, but no one has been brave enough to come out
and say it straight. Perhaps we should leave Belfast and the north-west out
of this, for they seem to have gone their own way, but it applies to the other
15 colleges. How closely do they relate to the needs of industry? What must
be done to respond seriously to the contents of Prof Best's report? 2416. Mrs Trewsdale: Although you used the word
"criticism", I do
not think that Prof Best is criticising the further education colleges. His
comment is that they receive little guidance. He does not say that it is their
fault, but that they need guidance from Government, or whoever, in the
crucial areas of manpower. 2417. Mr Dallat: I apologise. I put it badly.
I was referring exactly to that paragraph. It is very serious. 2418. Mrs Trewsdale: Yes. As far as Prof Best
and the council is concerned - [Interruption] 2419. Mr Dallat: It goes on to say that they
lack co-ordination too. Are they all singing from the same hymn sheet, or are
they all doing their own thing? 2420. Mrs Trewsdale: The council does not necessarily know that, because it has
not examined further education colleges in sufficient detail to understand
what they are doing. In answering Prof McWilliams's question, we were concentrating
on engineering and technology graduates. However, Prof Best has highlighted
another part of the story, which is the skilled workforce idea. It is not simply
the case that we only want graduates. Skilled non-graduates are also needed
to work in industry. He saw the further education colleges as the source of
those skilled - and I do not use this phrase in a disparaging way - non-graduates.
Did we not discuss this last time we were here? 2421. A
good, educated and skilled workforce is required. We do not mean that they must all be graduates.
Perhaps the idea he is getting at is that the further education colleges are
not in a position to produce the type of skilled workforce that is necessary,
because they are not receiving guidance as to what type of skilled workforce
is required. That is how I read it. 2422. Mr Gough: The key message from Prof Best's
report is that the whole process of skill formation must be integrated. He even
goes back to schools to involve primary school teachers as well as the further
and higher education sectors, and industry. He emphasised over and over again that
it must be a concerted and integrated approach. He thought that the further
education sector was not sufficiently involved in this process. 2423. The Chairperson: Prof Best said that little
guidance is given to the further education colleges. I think that that is true,
but if the council looks at the further education issue in detail in the future, one
question to ask is, "Is Prof Best's idea of guidance compatible with
the existing model of incorporation, which leaves the 17 colleges free-standing
from the Department?" 2424. It
strikes me that we might be in danger of having the worst of all possible worlds.
It would be better if we moved in one of two directions. Either the sector is
centralised again and administered and funded tightly from the centre, or it
is accepted that we are using a market-based model of training and indeed funding,
which means that money follows the students. In the latter instance it is accepted
that the colleges are allowed to specialise, which will probably mean that Belfast
Institute of Further and Higher Education's activities are radically different
in nature and scale from what some of the other colleges do. It is even possible
that some of the colleges will not survive. There is coherence in both those
models, but I suspect that at present there is a bit of a muddle, as in so many
things. It is part direction and partly a laissez-faire market approach, and
it is not working. May be that is more of a comment than a question. 2425. Mrs Trewsdale: As Mr Gough said, the council
has not looked at this area in detail yet. As you know, the council is loathe
to comment on something that it has not looked at in detail or that has not
gone through its procedures. 2426. All
Best is saying is that the colleges have potential; he felt that they were not getting the necessary
guidance. You talk
about your market-based model, but the other way to look at it is to say that opportunity
costs. It is perhaps better for certain colleges to specialise in producing
really top-rate skills than for all to do their best. Those are my own thoughts,
not those of the NIEC. 2427. Ms McWilliams: I do not necessarily agree with your approach of
presenting those options as mutually exclusive. I believe that one could both
centralise and specialise with a co-ordinated and integrated approach.
At the moment the universities
and the further education sector are reaching out to the colleges with
some courses, but they are not working in a very integrated fashion regarding
the strategic vision of where they want to go with skills. 2428. We
have heard evidence that the teaching of IT in schools is a concern, with a
lack of attraction at that early level that has not been the experience in the United States.
If you had a much more integrated regional approach between universities, colleges
and schools it would be possible both to co-ordinate and specialise, in what
would still be very much a market model. 2429. Mr Byrne: I found the Best contribution
both interesting and challenging. I agree that the further education sector
lacks co-ordination. Perhaps you might address the issue of how we go about
matching industrial culture with educational culture. All of us who have been
in the education system know that we were so shackled by administration that we did not relate
to it much. However, we were driven by systems that curtailed creativity and
the connection with entrepreneurs trying to run a business, train people
and get on with it. 2430. I
believe that Best also makes reference to this issue that there has been research
and development in Northern Ireland, but how can we make it more practically relevant to
the needs of industry and technology? I have been heartened in recent weeks.
I know someone who has spent £300,000 of his own money developing a project in his own
garage. It is draining the resources of his mainstream business, and the frustration
he has experienced has been quite unbelievable. The only light at the end of the tunnel
has been that the Industrial Research Technology Unit (IRTU) has recently been
very helpful. 2431. I
invite your comments about how we are to achieve relationships between the educational
culture and the person running the firm, who needs research and development
at a practical level and who is also looking for a young person to go to work
in industry and adopt its culture. 2432. Mrs Trewsdale: I agree that, traditionally,
the education system has always been seen to be divorced from industry apart
from when we had the old technical colleges and apprenticeships. My lame answer
to that is that, from the evidence that the Best Report presents, they
seem to have succeeded in doing this in the Republic of Ireland. Their educational
and industrial system has very similar roots to our own. We talk about Singapore,
South Korea, Taiwan and Japan, and one could argue that there are fundamental
industrial-cultural and educational-cultural differences. However, they seem
to have pulled it off in the Republic of Ireland. We could have a look at the
way that they have gone about it. 2433. Mr Byrne: That is where the regional technology colleges
have made a major contribution. Therefore, we can gain from their experience
with regard to how that can be applied to our further education colleges. 2434. Mrs Trewsdale: Technology colleges became
unfashionable, and many in the United Kingdom have become universities.
It is seen to be better to be a university than a technical college. The idea
that the technology industry is somehow inferior is something that runs through
culture. It is the old idea of blue collar versus white collar - you get a degree
and then move on, and you will not have to dirty your hands. It is not a case
of dirtying your hands with oil these days: we are talking about new technology. 2435. Mr Gough: The important element that comes
across in Best's
case studies in Massachusetts and other regions is leadership. That is why he emphasises
the need for this type of integrated plan coming from Government. It
does not mean that the Government are the leaders in the process, but they have
to set the divisions and the culture within which the plan can be taken forward. 2436. The main elements are leadership
and the willingness to get people involved from primary, secondary and
further education, universities, and within companies - the concept of
invisible colleges - to bring all these together into a dynamic plan. He is
saying that we in Northern Ireland have a rather static approach to skills.
The Northern Ireland Skills Taskforce and the monitoring survey tell us what
we have, and where the shortages are, but it has yet to be turned into a dynamic
plan, and that is what the Best Report is seeking. 2437. Mr Byrne: Do administrative systems constrain
people in education, in Government and in the Civil Service? Mr Gough said
that the Best Report talks about role model leaders promoting a dynamic interaction
involving those in firms, those in education and those with the necessary skills. 2438. Mrs Trewsdale: I am a bit lost as to what
the question is. Are you talking about the idea of GCSE and A-levels? Is that
what you mean by rigidity? 2439. Mr Byrne: I mean the general administrative
systems that we have in colleges, in universities or in public administration.
Are the systems so rigid that they do not provide for the unlocking of creativity? 2440. The Chairperson: Perhaps you could be
a bit more specific.
I thought that you were referring to things like quality assessment of teaching and research
assessments. 2441. Mr Byrne: I am not casting any doubt on
the intellectual abilities of the people who are in the universities or, for
that matter, in the Civil Service or Government agencies. We are so shackled
by the administrative mechanisms that we have the stuffing knocked out of us. 2442. Mr Gough: The Confederation of British Industry published
a report on the links with industry and business, and they did point to a problem
of too much bureaucracy in universities. They found that that constrained the
development of links between the two, especially for small and medium-sized
enterprises. 2443. Ms McWilliams: People used to leave the
university once they had engaged in entrepreneurial activities - the university
frowned upon it because of the time that it took up. The issue has never been
tackled properly. People would resign in order to create their own businesses.
In addition, because of the way the research assessment exercises have been
carried out, projects that involve applied work do not get as many points as
they would if they were involved with an internationally refereed journal. That
situation has begun to change only recently, and it has hit Northern Ireland
particularly hard in the areas of business and social and economic sciences. 2444. Dr Birnie: I have to declare an interest
there. I agree completely. 2445. Mrs Trewsdale: Is that what you meant,
Mr Byrne? 2446. Mr Byrne: Yes. I would like to thank my
colleague, Monica, for helping me with that point. 2447. Mrs Trewsdale: I have to declare an interest
as well, because
of my day job. What Monica is describing comes from central Government.
It is not a problem that the countries of the UK can individually influence.
In Scotland they have said that there will be no fees for students. It would
be wonderful if you could say that there would be no research assessment exercises
in Northern Ireland's universities. However, the decision is made by central
Government - you do not have direct control over that. 2448. I
agree with Mr Byrne that the situation is a disgrace. At the Queen's University
of Belfast, with the environmental science and technology research centre (the
Questor Centre), there has been an attempt to encourage the development of links
with industry and to sow the seed of new industries. 2449. Mr Byrne: I will make one more attempt
to make the point. Mr Chairperson, you will understand because you were a lecturer
at a university. If you are caught up in teaching, there is not enough time
for you to take an interest in careers in industry. 2450. Mrs Trewsdale: That is true, and as Ms
McWilliams said, even if they do have time, they are not likely to want to spend
their time doing that, because of the pressure that is put on academic staff
to produce the four grade four or five publications. 2451. Mr Gough: The problem is not just the
issue of lecturers'
involvement but also of students' involvement. We have a world-class research
infrastructure. However, we do not have the links with industry via the throughput of students
who work in a research environment on industry-relevant projects. We must get
lecturers and students more involved. 2452. Dr Birnie: On page 5 of your submission
you say that, in most cases, the issue is not so much the number of graduates who come
out of further and higher education, but the absorption of them by industry;
the problem is more about demand than supply. Can you elaborate on that
point? We have heard similar evidence before. It is important to determine how
far that is the case, because if it is it somewhat changes the policies one
may wish to adopt. 2453. Do
firms, companies or the private sector bear some responsibility for the problems,
in that they are not paying sufficiently high salaries - especially for technologists,
engineers, scientists, and so forth? Therefore, the apparent low supply is not
surprising and is a rational response by individuals looking at the market signals.
Is there much firm evidence as to what is happening here, relative to either
the Republic or Great Britain or any other relevant part of the world? 2454. Mr Gough: You are right about the absorptive
capacity of industry. In looking at the whole process of regional development,
the main conclusion of Best's report is that we lack entrepreneurial firms.
The report quotes an interesting statistic: only 25% of engineering graduates
in 1996-97 found jobs in Northern Ireland. There is, therefore, a problem in
industry, and that reflects back to the technology management capabilities
within industry as another dimension to the whole area of training. The
Chairman produced some seminal work on that issue back in the early 1990s. 2455. The Chairperson: You are flattering me
now. Carry on, I am enjoying it. 2456. Mr Gough: Ten years later, it is still
a problem. 2457. Mr Byrne: We have heard this point before,
but the Best report
also referred to the deficit in mathematics and science, and the less
than enthusiastic approach to those subjects. There is a question about the
quality of teaching in mathematics and science in our secondary schools. I know that some
lecturers at Queen's University are complaining that they have to take
the first six months of a degree course to actually do some A-level mathematics.
They feel that that is a great constraint. 2458. Mrs Trewsdale: To remove my hat as chairman
of the Northern Ireland Economic Council and put on my hat as a statistics lecturer
at Queen's University, this is one of my personal hobby horses, as Mr Byrne
knows. What he says is absolutely true. The decline in the standard of maths
among undergraduates - I am talking about GCSE maths here, not A-level maths
- is just unbelievable. What does one do about teaching statistics? From our
point of view, something is going awfully wrong in the teaching of maths in
schools. The universities are not necessarily in a position to find out what
that is. 2459. A
recent story in 'The Times' - which I can send to you - was about a simple test
for teachers in primary schools who were going to be teaching maths to children.
There were 10 questions, and the article recounted how many of the teachers
got them wrong. This was simple stuff - not, perhaps, quite primary school level,
but first or second form maths that they would have learnt themselves at that
stage. This is something that is very close to my heart, and I really lose confidence
in proceeding. We taught you O-level maths with statistics, and then you went
into second year. Now we have to put on a maths course in first year, to bring
the students up to the O-level standard that you had when you came to Queen's. 2460. Mr Byrne: In the past, the O-level course
had trigonometry, algebra and calculus. 2461. Mrs Trewsdale: Calculus in not taught now at all. 2462. Mr Byrne: That is what I am saying. GCSE
mathematics has been diluted so much that it does not provide the student with
any solid underpinning mathematical knowledge. 2463. Mrs Trewsdale: There is no logical thought.
They do not teach students how to think logically. They are not even taught
how to follow an argument down a page. 2464. Mr Dallat: I have an interest in literacy
and numeracy, but
perhaps at a different level. Are the same arguments made for literacy,
as you have just made for numeracy? 2465. Mrs Trewsdale: Yes. When I mark essays
in other subjects
that I teach, the illiteracy is quite amazing. One gets colloquialisms
written down that are fine in speech, but when they are beautifully written
or phonetically spelt, it is quite frightening. It is not necessarily even the
content - the handwriting itself is often so atrocious that one cannot read
it. You have really got me started on a personal point. 2466. Mr Dallat: I was dying to ask a question
earlier, but I was scared to. What about the poor student who is into the humanities
in a big way - are they going to have a hard time in the future if everybody
is forced to go down the technology road? 2467. Mrs Trewsdale: I do not think there is
any suggestion of forcing anybody to go down any road. There is definitely room
for the humanities. You cannot have a cultured society - and I mean culture
with a capital C, as opposed to the new meaning of the word "culture" - without
having humanities involved. That would be horrific. 2468. There are probably quite
a few people who, if they were correctly encouraged, would go down the technology
road. They may not
be very successful on the humanities side because they have a bent towards
technology. 2469. Mr Dallat: I know somebody at university
- not in Northern
Ireland - who recently went to discuss an MA course and very timorously announced that
they would
like to study an eighteenth century French author. The tutor immediately
went into ecstasy and pulled out books that had been gathering dust for years.
However, there are
no bursaries, no grants, and no financial support. That person will do
the MA, but entirely under their own steam. 2470. Mrs Trewsdale: We have a Department of
Byzantine Studies at Queen's University, and it is very popular. That is going
to the other extreme. As for the lack of bursaries, I do not think that that
is necessarily just the case in the humanities - or, indeed, obscure humanities.
You could argue that the MSc in finance is fairly current. The master's degree
in computer science and its applications is a sort of transitional course for
humanities graduates and the like. We find, however, that the money is not there
these days for our students to get bursaries, even to study what might be regarded
as relevant subjects in this argument. There is a shortage all the way round.
The money is not floating around for people who want to go off and be finance
people and computer experts. 2471. Mr Byrne: That is probably an issue for
us. We have concentrated largely on undergraduate finance, but there is a severe
lack of bursaries for people who want to do a master's degree or a PhD. That
is vital in relation to creating the intellectual capacity that has suffered
very much. 2472. Mrs Trewsdale: These days we are becoming
like America in the sense that you really have to do a master's degree if you
want to progress and feel that you have a qualification. We used to deride that
and say that the bachelor's degree in Europe was as good, but now students are
getting to the stage where they are having to go on to do master's degrees in
the various subjects
and, as Mr Byrne said, the bursaries are not there. 2473. The Chairperson: Perhaps I could ask about
what has been a fairly vexed topic - the numbers of IT-qualified people, both
at graduate and sub-degree level, coming out through the system. On pages 53
and 54 of his paper, Best says that in the Republic the annual output is about
3,100 at degree level and 2,200 at diploma and technician level, whereas here
it is 825 degrees and roughly 1,000 higher national diplomas, et cetera. We are running at
roughly one third to one quarter of the Republic's rate, which is certainly
lower per capita. Is it too little? I say that because it has been controversial.
There have been the NIEC reports, John Simpson has been writing in the 'Belfast
Telegraph' about it, and the Minister has made various comments. 2474. Mrs Trewsdale: We are back to the idea
that Monica McWilliams was hinting at. If you are going to produce qualified
people at graduate level, or even at sub-degree level, you have to have the
teachers. They have to be in place in order to increase the numbers. I certainly
know that in the case of computer science, both Queen's University and the University
of Ulster find it very difficult to recruit staff. Even having recruited them,
it is very difficult subsequently to hold them, simply because of the salaries.
The demand for good computer staff is so high. There are students who go
out and earn £35,000 to £40,000 per year on graduation. That is at the top level,
but they are averaging £20,000 or £25,000. When you think of lecturers' salary
scales, it is a chicken-and-egg situation. You have to have the teachers
to teach. Best seems to think that you can get them. He is fairly cavalier about getting teachers. 2475. Mr Gough: It depends on whether you want
to offer American salaries. 2476. The Chairperson: We will probably have
to declare an interest in that one too. 2477. Mr Gough: You made a point about the disagreement
over whether there is a shortage. Best says that that emphasises one of his
main conclusions, which is that there needs to be this bottom-up approach involving
all the practitioners in any sort of manpower planning or skills auditing exercise.
That is needed to avoid that sort of disagreement. 2478. Mr Byrne: It is important that we put
on record our appreciation of the Northern Ireland Economic Council, because over the
last ten years it has contributed enormously to critical analysis and
evaluation of the economic
trends and difficulties that we have experienced. That has been very
welcome. 2479. Mrs Trewsdale: Thank you. As you know, we are under review at
the moment, so we very much appreciate your comments. Can you make sure
to say that in other places? Although the review looks quite favourable, it
has not been finally concluded. We really appreciate the Committee's support
and are very grateful for it. 2480. The Chairperson: Thank you both for coming,
it was extremely helpful. We will try to absorb all the material that you have
sent us. It is obviously relevant to both training and research and development.
We hope to complete a report by the autumn. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 3 May 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr R Hutchinson Mr J Kelly Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Mr F Crowe ) Ms D Kelly ) Craigavon
Borough Council Mr A Hatch ) Mr T Reaney ) 2481. The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee,
I thank Craigavon Borough Council for having us here today, for the excellent
lunch we have just enjoyed, and for the very attractive surroundings. It is
the first time that the Committee has visited the offices of a district council.
It is appropriate that we have come to Craigavon, which probably has the largest concentration
of industrial activity outside the Greater Belfast area. 2482. We
are continuing our inquiry and evidence gathering into the Northern Ireland
training system. I would like to welcome the mayor, Councillor Fred Crowe, Councillors
Arnold Hatch and Dolores Kelly, and Trevor Reaney, chief executive of Craigavon Borough
Council. Would you like to make a short statement, after which we can have a
discussion? 2483. Mr Crowe: By way of introduction, it gives
me great pleasure
to formally welcome you and the members of the Committee to the borough
of Craigavon this afternoon. We are delighted that you have chosen Craigavon.
I am sure there are many reasons why you have chosen our borough, but I think
that your Deputy Chairman, Mr Carrick, may have had a word in your ear. We appreciate
your coming here. 2484. Dr
Birnie has already mentioned our large industrial base, and it is a fact that
Craigavon is the largest manufacturing base outside Belfast and has been so
for some considerable time. In the Regional Development Strategy it has been
designated as an area of major growth. No matter where you look, houses and
business units are springing up all over the place. We have recently had a major
influx of new people coming to live and work in the area. 2485. We are also fortunate in
having a unique education system, the Dixon plan, that exists nowhere
else in Northern Ireland. Four members of my family have gone through the system,
and being a member of the Southern Education and Library Board for the past
four years, I would not change the system for anything else. It is first-class
and reaps rich rewards. We also have the Upper Bann Institute of Further and
Higher Education, and I was involved in the amalgamation of the colleges in
Lurgan, Portadown and Banbridge. Together, these three places offer a service
that is second to none in Northern Ireland, and I say that as a former part-time
lecturer in engineering at the Belfast College of Technology. 2486. The
council believes that local companies have much to add to your deliberations, and I understand that
they will be making a contribution later this afternoon. Recently, a
building handed over by the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) has been
added to the Portadown
campus of the Upper Bann Institute. Councillor Hatch and I are members
of the institute's board
of governors. Councillor Hatch has an engineering business that makes
heating plants and ventilation equipment. While Councillor Kelly is not a board member, she has
a very responsible job involving training. She works in the rehabilitation day
care centre here, she has her ear to the ground and knows what is going on. 2487. We
have much to offer in Craigavon, but we do have a shortage of certain skills. 2488. The
further education college works closely with the council, where I was chairman of development
for six years. We also have the Greater Craigavon Partnership. The director of the further education college
sits on a number of our bodies and he is well versed on what is happening in
the area and helps us greatly. Through his work and through the work of the economic
development committee
we invite local school children, people from the education sector and
local companies to the council. It gives young people an opportunity to see
what we do. 2489. For
many years I have been a careers guidance fanatic, having run a business for 48 years. I was
president of the Association of Northern Ireland Education and Library
Boards in 1998-99, where I specialised in education for employment and careers
guidance. This has been continued throughout Northern Ireland via the five
education and library boards. At present careers guidance is not being tackled
properly. Teachers are under pressure and they need to find out what is happening. 2490. Mr Reaney: In discussion with the Committee
Clerk we agreed that there were four areas where it may be useful to make some
comment. You have already received a lengthy written submission from us. 2491. The
first issue is the future training needs in the Craigavon area. As has already
been stated, Craigavon is the largest industrial base outside Greater Belfast.
We have the largest concentration of manufacturing. One weakness in our manufacturing
base is that it is largely, but not solely, dependent on traditional industries such
as engineering, food processing and textiles, areas that are all under threat.
The whole of Ireland has had significant job losses, particularly in textiles. 2492. We
are looking to future training needs. Like other areas, we want to move away from our dependence
on traditional industries to opening up the capacity among our workforce and
local people to provide the potential for new inward investment from the new
technologies, ICT, pharmaceuticals,
health, electronics, telecommunications and so forth. We perceive a major
need for future training in the new technologies. We want a workforce that is
ready and a training system that feeds into those new technologies. In 2000
Craigavon Borough Council commissioned a study in which 100 local companies
were surveyed; 67% of respondents found it difficult to recruit people with
the right skills. In their view that issue rated third in importance for future
development. They also referred to the competitiveness of the market place and
the strength of sterling as obstacles to growth and expansion. We are fortunate
in having one of the lowest unemployment rates in Northern Ireland.
That is a blessing, but it creates difficulties in providing the labour supply,
which is a factor that we need to consider as we move forward in training needs. 2493. The
second issue is the future of our further education colleges. The Upper Bann
Institute is one of the key drivers for the future delivery of our local training
needs. It is moving increasingly to a client-driven system where it is responding
to local needs by identifying gaps in the market and adopting a flexible approach.
We see the institute as playing a key role in the years ahead. 2494. The
institute is starting to turn its attention to the new technologies and is developing
courses to meet the needs of those industries. It has recently been identified as an
ICT centre of excellence in Northern Ireland. 2495. We
are keen to increase linkages between further education colleges and universities.
The Upper Bann Institute provides foundation degree courses that feed into the University
of Ulster. However, that should be extended, perhaps with links to Queen's
University, and possibly a university satellite campus in the area to support
local industry. 2496. In
1999 the Upper Bann Institute established a business-oriented department, Training
Direct. This is an organisation within an organisation that seeks to devise
programmes and training to meet the needs of local businesses. 2497. When
we look at the further education sector it is important to recognise that two
competing issues need to be balanced. The first is the ability of the sector
to be responsive to local needs and the second is to have a strategic approach
at a Northern Ireland level. This would ensure that we are not going off in
different directions and missing opportunities that a coherent strategy could
provide. 2498. The third issue is the linkage
between Government, education, training and industry. In Northern Ireland
some £2 billion is spent on education and training. However, there is minimal
investment in identifying future training needs and issues, which leads to an
over and under-supply situation. In linking Government with industry, there
should be an increasingly coherent approach to matching those skills. There
should be stronger links at a regional level between the various Government
Departments and particularly the new economic development agency. 2499. The
mayor has already referred to the Greater Craigavon Partnership; the director
of the Upper Bann Institute and the chief executive of the Southern Education
and Library Board sit on its board. By using this economic development forum,
and through local networking and contacts, we seek to influence, and be influenced
by, the education and training world. 2500. The
fourth issue concerns examples of good training practice in the Craigavon area.
I would like to focus on one company in particular, NACCO Materials Handling,
which has identified how the Training Direct initiative at the Upper Bann Institute
can work with industry. You will be seeing its representatives later this afternoon
and they will give you their perspective. 2501. NACCO
is a large company employing approximately 800 people. It mostly manufactures
forklift trucks for export. Training Direct has been working with NACCO to develop
courses which fit with their needs and the scheduling of their shift systems,
which is an important issue for the company. They supply courses in computer
literacy, electrical engineering, fabrication, welding, programming and engineering,
and a BTEC national certificate in engineering, which is delivered on Saturday
mornings so that employees can be released for training. Some 142 employees
have undertaken courses through this initiative, which demonstrates the significant
impact the institute's approach has had on a local employer. 2502. Many other companies are
involved with Training Direct - Moy Park, Ulster Carpet Mills, Tayto,
Rush Manufacturing, Saville's Motors and so on. We find that this type of linkage
between an institute and local industry is very successful and we commend it
to other colleges and industries in Northern Ireland. 2503. Ms Kelly: There should be more input by
colleges such as the Upper Bann Institute into the care and nurturing of young people in areas such as
parenting and home management skills. It is not simply about economic
resources - it is also about personal development. 2504. Something
must be done about the supposed stigma of "going to the tech". There is a perception
that people only go there because they have failed in the grammar school sector.
A promotional and PR exercise is needed to showcase the achievements of people
who attend further education colleges. It is not quite pastoral care, rather
a holistic approach to young people. That vital component is missing
in some colleges. 2505. Mr Hatch: The Committee, and higher education in general,
fits in to the top end of the system. I want to see "seamless" education, where people can move
from an academic
career to a professional career without stigma. 2506. There
are budget limitations. In the light of the foot-and-mouth crisis it will be
even tighter in future years. It is important that the Committee looks closely
at value for money. There are 17 further education colleges in Northern Ireland and rather than all
colleges competing for similar courses, colleges should be identified
which can provide the highest standards of delivery in each area. 2507. The
Upper Bann Institute, for example, has been nominated as an ICT centre of excellence
by the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and
engineering runs a very close second. The institute could handle higher level
ICT and it could also become a centre of excellence for engineering. Specific
funding should be directed to this type of system. If another college has expertise
in a certain subject, funding should be directed towards that. 2508. We
would like the Committee to consider the removal of capping, which has been
a problem that has inhibited the growth of the institute. 2509. Mr Reaney mentioned linkages
with the University of Ulster. We would like to develop links with Queen's
University, but there are difficulties in encouraging Queen's to look at this
area and provide research and development for industry. This should apply to
established and future industries. 2510. Careers
guidance has been mentioned. The problem is that careers teachers in further
education colleges, and more especially in grammar schools, tell us that students,
rather than getting out and examining the wider world, should look at other
options. Students tend to turn to the soft options - for example, business studies
- and at the end of their studies they cannot find jobs. On the other hand, there is a shortage of
engineers, nurses and psychiatrists, and there are shortages in the hospitality
industry. As soon as students leave the care departments in Banbridge
and Lurgan, they are employed. There are also shortages in this area. 2511. The
furniture design department at the Lurgan campus is unique to Northern Ireland. It produces excellent
work and we have a history of furniture design because Allwoods have manufactured
in the area for generations. If any of you have an opportunity to visit the Lurgan campus,
you should, to see the standard of workmanship and design. It is an eye-opener. 2512. The Chairperson: Thank you. That was a
very useful and broad introduction. 2513. Mr Carrick: Mr Reaney, in your presentation
you referred to examples of good training practice in the Training Direct model
at the Upper Bann Institute. Your submission stated that funding should be given
to establish a business
unit in each further education institute, similar to models in the regional
technical colleges in the South of Ireland. That would provide a one-stop shop
for companies or economic development bodies and would create a system
of traditional and tailor-made courses. Could you elaborate on Training Direct?
Does the Training Direct model reflect your submission? 2514. Mr Reaney: The Upper Bann Institute would
be best suited to
clarify that and representatives of its board of governors are sitting
beside me. My understanding is that it does embrace that. As I indicated, Training
Direct is a business-oriented
outward-looking organisation that goes out to see what industry wants.
It is in its infancy and will evolve and develop, and it may well move to a
point where it can be more comprehensive in the services that it provides, along
the lines of our submission. This is something which should be encouraged and
supported, not only locally but also at a regional level in terms of how colleges
might be supported in order to develop that model and expand it. 2515. Mr Hatch: This is not a business unit
of 500, 1,000 or 10,000 square feet, but a business department within the Upper
Bann Institute that directly benefits the development of business as a whole.
It is not a business-building unit. 2516. Mr Dallat: You have praised the Dixon
plan highly but you have made no reference to literacy and numeracy problems
in the work place. Is there any evidence to suggest that you have been spared
the excesses of literacy and numeracy problems that the rest of Northern Ireland
experiences, or are they here in Craigavon also? 2517. Mr Crowe: As an education board member,
and as a member of the boards of governors of local primary schools, secondary
schools and colleges, I can say that literacy and numeracy are still severe
problems. We must get back to basics, as politicians in England have said on
a number of occasions. First, we do not have a proper nursery education system.
This issue has been toyed with - play areas and so on. A start must be made
at nursery schools and carried into primary schools, because by the time children
reach the second tier, it is too late. 2518. Moy
Park has had problems in this area, mainly with people from outside the area.
Moy Park runs special evening courses for its own staff. As a member of the
Association of Northern Ireland Education and Library Boards, I know that this
is a big problem throughout Northern Ireland and steps are being taken to try
to do something about it. 2519. Changes
in education and the curriculum have put teachers under incredible pressure.
Because they have to make reports on so many issues, they have too much clerical
work to allow them to get on with the job of teaching. 2520. Ms Kelly: The mayor has covered the Moy
Park situation, and no doubt the firm's representatives will tell you more.
My point is that early education happens on the mother's or father's knee. That
is where there has been a difficulty. There is a generation of adults who are
parents who can neither read nor write, or do not value reading and writing skills. That problem must
be addressed, along with the issue of ensuring that libraries and books are
accessible. One of my teachers said that a child should be encouraged from the
moment that he or she can grasp a book. We need that sort of parenting because
it is valuable to a young person's development. The skills can then be passed
on to the next generation. As elsewhere, literacy is a problem here. 2521. Mr J Kelly: Thank you for your presentation
and for inviting us here. The Fasttrack to IT (FIT) scheme in Dublin interests
me. I presume that you have looked at it and if so, have you entered into any
joint ventures with the people involved to try to assimilate the ideas or mirror
the success that they have had? 2522. Mr Reaney: The Upper Bann Institute is pursuing that issue
but I am not up to date on it. In principle, however, the council would
support those kinds of linkages. 2523. Mr Crowe: The Upper Bann Institute has
one of the best centres. It has the latest equipment and all the lecturers and people
involved are top-notchers. We also have our arm's-length company, the Craigavon
Industrial Development Organisation (CIDO). Its technology centre in
Lurgan is on a par with the further and higher education institute. We are taking
the issue seriously. A number of individuals and companies in this area have been pioneers
in information technology and the drawing up of systems. We have been
forced to cater for that situation, and I believe that we are catering well. 2524. Mr Byrne: Given that this is such a strong
industrial area and the fact - as has been mentioned - that there is a bottleneck
of skills, have the mayor or his colleagues any views on modern apprenticeships
and technical skills training? 2525. Mr Crowe: I am glad you mentioned that because I intended
to raise it myself. I am a trained mechanical and electrical engineer. I served
my time in Belfast. I started off at five shillings per week and I had to pay
my train fare out of that. When I was finished I would have had £4 or £5 at
the very most. 2526. I
ran a motor business for 48 years. When a young fellow came to work for me I
made it a condition that he had to attend the day release schemes at "the tech".
I went through that system myself. I had to go to the tech and over some 10
years I took many extra subjects. I found that experience invaluable in later
years when I was running my own business. We must return to that. The engineers
and workmen of today can hardly drive a nail in straight. They need experience,
and they need to get it right from the start. Today's fitters and motor mechanics
are able to fit a new part; however, they are not able to fix an old part. We
need to have skilled people who are capable of doing this work for the benefit
of everyone. 2527. Mr Hatch: I receive engineering books
and they detail a shortage of hands-on engineers. We have people who might have
degrees in mechanical engineering, but if you set them down at a circuit board
to sort out a problem, they would not have a clue. They do not have the mental
agility and manual dexterity. 2528. Some
training and employment agencies have been set up and privatised and they deal
with clerical and other staff and there is some credibility in terms of those
agencies that are validating courses for them. It is possible to go to a further
education college, do a course or two on training and recruitment, set up on
your own and then get somebody else to validate you. It does not mean very much.
The proof of the pudding is when an employer hires someone with a certificate
which states that he has done x, y and z. The employer then puts him down to
do a job and he does not know where to start. 2529. The
Government needs to look at the validation of apprenticeships, and we should
start using the word "apprenticeship". Modern apprenticeships confuse employers.
They think that if someone has spent four years doing x, y and z, it means a
lot. If we start splitting off into one- or two-man businesses which then start
training people and claim that they are skilled to do x, y and z, it does not
mean much and it is ruining the good name of perfectly good providers of that
training. 2530. Mr Beggs: It is interesting that this
borough has one of the lowest levels of unemployment. Have you learned any lessons
through your contacts? Have local organisations been forced to go out and address
people in the community who do not have basic educational skills? Have any lessons
been applied here which, because of the urgency of finding employable people,
can be passed on to other parts of Northern Ireland? You are at the coalface
and you could facilitate development. 2531. Mr Reaney: I will respond by using an
example from one of our local companies, Moy Park, which operates a factory
shift system. In terms of tapping into the potential market, its shifts have
been designed to be family-friendly. It has had to be flexible in the timings
of its shifts and it almost has an open house arrangement. Moy Park has adapted
its shift systems to suit the times that people, especially mothers, are available
to work. It has short shifts and unusual shifts that attract people to the company. 2532. Some
companies have made initiatives of this kind, finding out where the potential
is and tapping into it. Companies are looking beyond our area in a bid to attract
people to either commute or to live here. The council is promoting Craigavon
and recommending it as an attractive place in which to live, thereby creating
a bigger labour pool for local firms. 2533. We
would like to see available jobs rising in quality. Many jobs are available
at the lower end of the industrial scale but we would like to see an expansion
into technical, engineering and ICT skills. People who currently live here and
commute to their work places would then have the option of jobs in the area. 2534. Mr Hatch: The Upper Bann Institute and
the T&EA went
into areas of Brownlow, where "boat" people and Belfast people with no
skills lived, who perhaps had an unemployment history going back generations.
They have conducted education courses suited to those people so that they are
employable. More and more of those people are coming back into the work place
because they were provided with on-the-spot, tailor-made education. 2535. Mr Crowe: I am involved with one of the
community companies, Brownlow Ltd, and several organisations have identified people who are unemployed
and/or long-term unemployed, even unemployable. Using European money, they
have been sent to Germany and France to allow them to see what is going
on elsewhere, and they have come back changed people. Some people originally
came with Goodyear, lost their job and did not get another one. These people
need to be retrained and we are working with them through several different
organisations, and there has been some success. 2536. The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee,
I thank you for your submission, your presentation, and for taking questions.
It has been very interesting, and we wish you well in your continuing efforts in Craigavon. 2537. Mr Crowe: Thank you. We wish you well
in your task. We are sold on education, improvement and doing everything we
can to help all the people of Northern Ireland. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 3 May 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr R Hutchinson Mr J Kelly Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Mrs S Turbitt ) North American Coal 2538. The Chairperson: I would like to welcome
representatives from
the North American Coal Company Organisation (NACCO). We have with us
Suzanne Turbitt,
the human resources officer, and Caroline Corey, the training and development
officer. We are grateful to you for coming and we are interested in getting
the angle from your
own company, which is a substantial American-owned inward investor in
Northern Ireland, and
to see what perspective that brings to the relationship between training and
broader economic developments. 2539. Perhaps
you could make a brief introduction and we could then proceed to questions. 2540. Mrs Turbitt: We are part of the NACCO Materials Handling
Group Inc and we provide design, engineering, manufacturing and administrative
support for Hyster and Yale brand lift trucks, which are sold throughout the
world. Our head office is in Portland, Oregon. 2541. The
NACCO Materials Handling Group has 15 manufacturing locations in nine countries.
In Europe, Africa and the Middle East, the NACCO Materials Handling Group employs
over 3,000 people in our manufacturing, sales and marketing locations. Craigavon
is the largest, most
vertically integrated facility worldwide, representing 15% of the group's
turnover. Construction commenced on a greenfield site in August 1979 and was
completed in April 1981. The present workforce comprises some 800 employees. The
plant has the capacity to build more than 90 trucks a day. In the previous
six years the company has invested in the region of £40 million in capital equipment. 2542. Our
manufacturing operations include CNC machining, robotic welding systems, CNC
and laser profile cutters, hydraulic presses and tool manufacture. We have painting
processes, a hydraulic cylinder plant, transmissions plant and assembly operations.
We have stores and shipping departments, and supporting service departments.
I hope this gives you an overview of the company and its operations. 2543. Mr Beggs: As the company is part of an
international group, do you think that any lessons can be learned in Northern Ireland by comparing our
system of further and higher education with the systems that you have
experienced in other parts of the world? Are there areas where you think that
improvements could be made to our system in terms of links between education,
training and industry? 2544. Miss Corey: Our Nijmegen facility follows
the German model, and many apprentices come into the organisation to be trained
for the NACCO Materials Handling Group. However, in Craigavon, we find that
we have to tailor our market and operations to suit the requirements of the
apprenticeship. That is one area where we could learn from other practices. 2545. Mr Beggs: Do you think that modern apprenticeships
need to be tailored more towards the needs of the company instead of following
set criteria? 2546. Miss Corey: Yes. We have some difficulty
with meeting the requirements of the NVQ Level 3 apprenticeship. 2547. Mr Carrick: I would like to go into that
issue a little more. The company was founded in 1979 on a greenfield site with 800
employees. What have you experienced in the process of establishing your 800-strong
workforce? What difficulties have you encountered, and how did you overcome
those difficulties in order to obtain the skilled employees that you need? What
links have you established with training organisations? I am particularly interested
in local organisations such as the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education.
Do you find that those organisations are useful to you, or do
you have to look beyond the local training establishments to get the
level of skill that you need? 2548. Mrs Turbitt: The plant currently has 800
employees; this would not have been the case when the plant was established
in 1979. We had some problems recruiting semi-skilled and skilled operatives.
The company has, however, taken measures to address the problem. We work closely
with Training Direct at the Upper Bann Institute in relation to areas such as
CNC training and welding. 2549. Mr Carrick: Do you provide in-house training,
or are people trained externally? 2550. Mrs Turbitt: We train employees to a large
extent in-house but we have also tried to source external training. Depending
on the nature of the job, we may try to train people prior to coming into the
work place. 2551. Mr Carrick: Do you find that that is more
cost-efficient, or did you do that out of necessity? 2552. Mrs Turbitt: I do not think that it is
more cost-efficient.
We would take this option out of necessity. 2553. Miss Corey: It was necessary to use external
training for welders. We needed welders so we had to put a training programme
in place outside the company. We introduced a lifelong learning initiative
in 1999 as part of the company's career development scheme. That aims to help
people to focus on their training and career development, and it helped us to
establish links with the local colleges, especially the Upper Bann Institute
and its Training Direct programme. The colleges have been very flexible
and provide courses to suit shift patterns. For example, they will run the same
course twice a week so that people can attend the class that suits their working
hours. 2554. The
training programme has also afforded the company a win-win situation, in that
people attend courses in their own time, while the company provides the funding for the courses.
Many of the people involved in the first programme were interested in CNC machining.
Those people would have traditionally been unskilled workers in assembly
areas who had decided that they wanted to move into semi-skilled roles such
as CNC machining. The Upper Bann Institute provided courses for these people.
The company, therefore, had a wider pool from which to recruit CNC machinists.
That is all done in-house, and the company must move things forward because
there are difficulties in recruiting CNC machinists outside of that pool. It
is an industry-based initiative. 2555. Mr Dallat: Do companies have an important
role to play in widening
access to education and training, and developing an entrepreneurial culture
in business? 2556. Miss Corey: Companies need to be flexible
and have an important role to play in helping individuals to develop their skills. 2557. Mr Dallat: Does training help to break
down unfortunate titles such as "unskilled", "semi-skilled" and all the terms
we use to differentiate people? 2558. Miss Corey: Training gives people the opportunity to
develop themselves. That development will break down labels such as "unskilled"
workers. Companies are moving towards a more technological age; for example, in the past year
almost 200 traditionally unskilled workers from our company undertook computer literacy
courses, which helped them to move up a stage. The organisation also
benefits in that if it introduces technology to the shop floor, individuals
are skilled and ready. 2559. Mr Dallat: Is there an important spin-off
for the company with regard to how long employees stay with their employers? 2560. Mrs Turbitt: The average employee service
is eight years. However, we have many long-service employees, some with 20 years'
service. We try to provide opportunities for employees to develop within the
organisation. This has a positive effect with regard to company loyalty. NACCO
has operatives - we do not classify in terms of semi-skilled, skilled, or non-skilled
workers. We promote multiskilling and we encourage operatives to train in many
operations, thereby increasing their skills and flexibility. 2561. Mr Dallat: I am referring to the terms
that you used. 2562. Miss Corey: The company differentiates between assembly
operations and manufacturing operations. The traditional terms were "unskilled" and "semi-skilled". 2563. Mrs Nelis: Your company manufactures the
entire forklift truck operation. Do you recruit young people straight from school,
for example, 16 year olds? Do you offer them skills training and do you allow
them to continue their education through day release or whatever? 2564. There is a skills shortage
in engineering. Everyone seems to be directed into the area of information
technology. How many engineers does your firm turn out? What other professional
skills or trades does your company give to young people coming straight from
school? What are the benefits? Would it be an improvement if 16 year olds went
straight into a firm and were given an apprenticeship, for example, in a particular
engineering skill while simultaneously pursuing the academic needs of
that particular profession? Is that working in your firm? Could training be improved? 2565. Mrs Turbitt: Our young recruits are usually
at least 18 years old. We operate a two and three shift pattern, five days a
week, with apprentices being the only exception. We also offer year-long placements
for students, and we sponsor student bursaries whereby we sponsor a student
through university financially and give them the opportunity to gain experience
within the company, with the end result that they are in a strong position to
secure employment. 2566. Miss Corey: We currently have eight modern
apprentices, three in maintenance, which is focused on engineering, and one
in our tool room. It is useful to have apprentices in these departments and
the gain to them is an engineering qualification. 2567. They
are given day release to attend the Upper Bann Institute. They study for a BTEC
HNC in mechanical and manufacturing engineering and then go on to NVQ Level
3 in production engineering. That works well in departments such as maintenance
and tool making. However, in other engineering sectors we found that we could
not provide what was needed to attain NVQ Level 3. At the end of their apprenticeship
we cannot guarantee that they will move into an engineering role. 2568. Mrs Nelis: Do operators form the bulk
of your workforce? 2569. Miss Corey: Yes. 2570. Mrs Nelis: Are we talking about low skills? 2571. Miss Corey: There are different levels
of skills. CNC machinists and welders are skilled. 2572. Mrs Turbitt: We have a considerable number
of engineers, some
of whom are graduates. Alternatively, an individual may come into the
organisation at the age of 18, be trained throughout their employment, gain
various skills and work their way up to the position of engineer. There are therefore various routes to
becoming an engineer within the company. 2573. Mr J Kelly: As a traditional time-served
apprentice, I am
interested in the engineering side. You mentioned the difficulties between skilled
and semi-skilled operators and problems with apprenticeships. What difficulties
do you have with apprenticeships? 2574. Miss Corey: Maintenance and tool making
are not termed "skilled" in our organisation. We can bring in a student and
train him as a craftsman. 2575. CNC
machinists are semi-skilled. At the end of an individual's apprenticeship, he
is still deemed an operator. 2576. Mr J Kelly: At the end of that? 2577. Miss Corey: Yes. It would be better for the young person
to go into maintenance or tool making, where there are only two or three apprenticeships
per year. 2578. Mr J Kelly: Do you think of welding as
semi-skilled? 2579. Mrs Turbitt: No. Due to the nature of
our business, we require a high level of skill in that area. All our employees
are termed operatives; however, we have to differentiate between various skills requirements. 2580. Mr J Kelly: When you say "operative",
what do you differentiate between? 2581. Mrs Turbitt: If we were advertising for welders, we would
not ask for semi-skilled operatives; we would ask for welders. 2582. Mr J Kelly: Do you ask for welders or operatives? 2583. Mrs Turbitt: We would advertise for welders.
Other vacancies may be advertised as "operatives", stating the department and
skills required. 2584. Mr J Kelly: Do you have a difficulty with
that? 2585. Mrs Turbitt: A welder requires certain
skills whereas an assembly operative would not have to be trained to the same standard
on joining the company. We provide the assembly operative's training.
However, this is
not usually the situation with a welder; we require them to have prior welding
skills and experience. 2586. Mr J Kelly: Are your welders up to x-ray
standard? 2587. Mrs Turbitt: Yes. 2588. Mr J Kelly: Do you have any difficulty
with image problems in recruitment - in terms of religion, for example? 2589. Mrs Turbitt: No. We have a very balanced
workforce. 2590. The Chairperson: Many questions seem to
indicate that Committee members are trying to form a picture of NACCO's skills
profile. What percentage of your workforce in Craigavon are graduates and what
percentage are apprentice trained or the equivalent? 2591. Mrs Turbitt: I do not have a breakdown
of the figures with me, but I could submit it to the Committee later. 2592. The Chairperson: That might be useful. 2593. Mr Byrne: Miss Corey talked about the difficulties of matching
the requirements of the certification bodies with your company's training. Is
GNVQ Level 3 too theoretical, or is it not directly related to the work that
you want people to do? 2594. Miss Corey: It is not directly related to the work that
we want people to do. It is good for maintenance and tool making areas, which is why we have no
problem in recruiting apprentices to those areas. However, in traditional
semi-skilled areas they have difficulty meeting the standard requirements. They
would have to be flexed into maintenance and tool making, which is inconsistent
with production. 2595. Mr J Kelly: Are there any union difficulties
in the company? 2596. Mrs Turbitt: No. We have fairly good employee relations
within the company. 2597. Mr J Kelly: Do you have a union? 2598. Mrs Turbitt: Yes, we do. 2599. Mr Carrick: You currently have 800 employees and have
difficulties in obtaining skilled labour. Is this hampering the company's expansion?
Is it inhibiting or delaying that expansion? If the right supply of skilled
labour were available, would you recruit more people? 2600. Mrs Turbitt: We have had some difficulty
in recruiting people
with the necessary skills and experience. However, any difficulties experienced
have not had a significant impact in relation to company expansion, to my knowledge. 2601. Mrs Nelis: Do you go into schools and institutes to
recruit employees? Do you work with the careers guidance people, and do you
find them helpful? 2602. Mrs Turbitt: We work closely with a number
of schools. We go to careers fairs and exhibitions and we participate in various
education/industry initiatives such as interview skills training. School visits
are beneficial because they give students some background knowledge on what
the company does and the working environment. However, some apprentices may
still get a shock when they first come into an engineering firm because
they have not had enough background knowledge about the industry and
environment. More preparation by careers advisers may be helpful. 2603. Mr J Kelly: I am struck by the fact that
you are both female. What is the gender ratio in the company? 2604. Mrs Turbitt: It is predominantly male. 2605. Mr J Kelly: Do you have a fair percentage
of females working there? 2606. Miss Corey: The figure is about 6%. 2607. Mrs Turbitt: That is probably correct,
although I do not have the exact figure with me today. 2608. Mr J Kelly: Do you have female apprentices? 2609. Mrs Turbitt: We do not have female apprentices at present. However, we have
a number of female engineers. 2610. Mr J Kelly: Is that at the design level? 2611. Mrs Turbitt: No. The female engineers
whom we currently employ are based in manufacturing and quality. 2612. Mr Beggs: You said that you were proactive
about going to schools and educating teachers and pupils in the world of industry.
Do you, for instance, organise school visits so that students can see what an
industrial environment
is like? Do you think the education sector and society value the worth
and importance of the engineering sector, or is it perceived as not being as
worthwhile as the professions? I trained as an engineer, and I think that people
would be more impressed if I had studied medicine or dentistry. Does society's
perception of engineering need to change so that people will value the manufacturing
sector? 2613. Mrs Turbitt: "Engineering" is a very broad-based term.
Many people perceive themselves to be engineers in various occupations and industries.
We organise school visits and work experience. However, our factory involves
some heavy engineering and some students may be discouraged initially because
of their perception of the environment. An hour-long tour would not really be
sufficient to give them an idea of the company's business. 2614. Miss Corey: The education sector is beginning
to give credence
to the importance of industry. In the past couple of years we have worked
with the University of Ulster Northern Ireland Science and Technology Regional
Organisation (NISTRO) project. We bring in lower- sixth-form students to work
on engineering projects. These are not necessarily students who have decided
that they want to go into engineering, but they do want an insight. Perhaps
they are studying maths, chemistry or biology at A level but have not yet decided
what they want to do. It gives them an opportunity for experience. 2615. Mrs Nelis: The name, the North American
Coal Corporation, intrigues me. How did that originate? 2616. Mrs Turbitt: The company is American owned
and it has three business arms, one of which is lignite mining, primarily as
fuel for power generation by electric utilities. 2617. Mr Byrne: Is the research and design team
for forklift trucks
based here, or are new products designed elsewhere? 2618. Mrs Turbitt: There is a product design
team, with five engineers, on site. The group's main research and development
facility is based in Portland, Oregon, which is the group's headquarters. 2619. Mr Byrne: Is the Craigavon design team important to the
group? 2620. Mrs Turbitt: Yes, they are important;
they are responsible for design maintenance and value improvement activity. 2621. The Chairperson: Mr Byrne made a good
point about the extent
of design undertaken here. Supplementary to that, how many higher degrees
- PhDs or whatever - are there in engineering? 2622. Miss Corey: No one has a PhD in our Craigavon plant,
but there are two chartered engineers. 2623. Mr Carrick: I am a local person and interested
in the interaction
between the company and the education system. I am sure that NACCO has had some
experiences during the 20-odd years that it has operated here. What improvements
would you like to see in linkages with other organisations? 2624. Miss Corey: NACCO has been working closely
with the Upper Bann Institute, which has been flexible in providing courses
for the organisation's training needs. The courses are flexible and meet shift
patterns. However, I think that NACCO needs to work more closely with the Upper
Bann Institute with regard to the quality of courses provided because the institute
may not use the same type of machines - CNC machining, for example - or machine
language that NACCO uses. Linkages would be improved if we worked
more closely in the design of the training programmes. The improvements may
not necessarily lead to qualifications but they would provide better training
for the organisation. 2625. Mr Carrick: What mechanism has NACCO identified
to make that happen? 2626. Miss Corey: NACCO is working closely with
Training Direct and our plant manager, Alan Little, chaired the first meeting. 2627. Mr Carrick: Is the Upper Bann Institute
being responsive to your requests for the harmonisation of machine languages? 2628. Miss Corey: Yes, to an extent, but the
institute is having difficulties with costings and the number of students that
NACCO can provide. NACCO wanted to run a CNC machining course with the institute,
but could only provide six people for that course. The institute's quota was
a minimum of 12 people, so if NACCO could only provide six people, there would
be an increased charge. The Upper Bann Institute needs to open out to other
manufacturing organisations, which is what Training Direct is aiming to do. 2629. Mr Beggs: Your company is investing a significant amount
of money in organising in-house training for students and out-house training
from external tutors. Do you think that Northern Ireland companies are investing enough
money in training? Are people you have trained to a higher level being poached?
How can we encourage more people to invest in training? 2630. Miss Corey: It is difficult to evaluate
the return on investment in training, and that is particularly true for smaller
companies. A company could invest £2,000 to £3,000 per year on someone who goes
to another company that pays better. The company's philosophy is to train. If
you train people, they might leave, but if you do not train them, they might
stay and you are left with an organisation of untrained people. 2631. Companies that offer better
salaries have poached individuals from NACCO. However, the return on
investment in training is substantial. An employee might leave eventually, but
they are very useful when they are still with us. 2632. Mr Beggs: Are other companies investing enough money? Do
industries in Northern Ireland want people trained on the cheap, without having
to invest? 2633. Miss Corey: My own perception, but not
necessarily the perception of the organisation, is that other companies do not
invest enough in training. NACCO is a forward-thinking company when it comes
to training. 2634. The Chairperson: The company has various
subsidiaries. Is
the skills profile in Craigavon lower than in the Netherlands or in the United
States, for example? Could this be explained by the fact that there are substantial
wage differences between countries, as there are across the manufacturing
sector as a whole? Do labour productivity levels differ between the company's
subsidiaries? Those questions may be difficult to answer unless you have a bird's-eye
view of the whole company. 2635. Miss Corey: I can partly answer the questions
by using the Nijmegen plant as an example. It has had huge difficulties in recruiting
welders because the Netherlands does not have many welders. We hope to be able
to address issues such as this as we move towards being a European-focused organisation. 2636. Mr Byrne: What type of organisational structure is there in the
company? Does it operate the just-in-time system or a team-working system? How is the production
system managed? 2637. Mrs Turbitt: The company uses a process called "demand
flow technology", which is a mathematically based way of designing the manufacturing
process and incorporates the use of a kanban system. 2638. Employees work within self-managed
teams, which the company continually develops. The company does not have
a supervisory level; there are superintendents who report to the local leadership
team, which comprises seven managers. The company structure is, therefore,
fairly flat. 2639. The Chairperson: I would like to thank
you on behalf of
the Committee. The presentation was extremely interesting. You answered
questions on a wide and detailed area of the operations of your plant in Craigavon and
on the company generally. It was a helpful insight into the training position
of your type of engineering and inward investment in an American-owned company. The Committee
will reflect on what you said and we wish you well with your work. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 3 May 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr R Hutchinson Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Mr J Cromie ) Moy Park Mr A Gibson ) 2640. Mrs Carson: I wish to put on record a
non-financial interest. A member of my family is employed by Moy Park. 2641. The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee
I welcome Mr John
Cromie, human resources manager, and Mr Alan Gibson, purchasing director,
both from Moy Park. Thank you for coming and for the written submission that
the company has given to the inquiry. We are pleased to be able to meet you
in the locality where your major plant is based. If you would make a short introductory
statement we can then move to questions and answers. 2642. Mr Gibson: Peter Wolf, our commercial director, sends
his apologies. He is in Brazil this week - obviously, as part of an international
company, these things can happen at short notice. He has asked me to step in,
so I will do my best to facilitate and answer any questions. 2643. We want to take this opportunity
to give evidence on three main areas. One is the importance of the food
industry - and as Chairman of the Northern Ireland Food and Drink Association
I have a particular interest in ensuring that the food industry is not seen
as a sunset industry, but as a dynamic, innovative, growth industry. It is true
to say that there has been a certain amount of consolidation in the agri-processing
sector due to market
forces. However, within food processing, and the work that has been done,
it is certainly not a sunset industry. The agri-processing sector employs 70,000
people, directly and indirectly, and has over 300 food companies with a combined
turnover of £2·5 billion, and 23% of all manufacturing products sold in Northern
Ireland is from food. Nine per cent of all exports from Northern Ireland is
food, and 18% of all employees in manufacturing are in the food industry. Therefore,
it is strategically and economically fundamental to the Northern Ireland
economy. 2644. Regarding
our position as a global player, we are part of an American owned company called
OSI. We are run very much as a local company, with local management. Decision-making
is done locally, but we have the opportunity to benchmark and get experience
of international business. 2645. We
firmly believe there is a need for increased funding to help local education
providers to meet the needs of the industry, because there is a vacuum and shortfall.
We have done some work with the Upper Bann Institute and others such as East
Tyrone Institute and Loughry College. We want those types of colleges and education
providers to have sufficient funding to meet the needs of the industry. If you
look at the food industry as a whole and our educational system, it is fair
to say that the top 20% of our students in Northern Ireland are as good as anywhere
in Europe. We have no issues with the high level of education. The middle band
schools, and the middle level of achievement is average - it is satisfactory.
However, the one area we are concerned about is the bottom 20% of society that
comes out of the educational system. Predominantly that 20% goes to work in
the food industry. If you extrapolate that forward, if the food industry is
not there, how do we, as a society, help to develop and train those people and
give them a sense of worth? There is a broader social issue, but I do not want
to push that too far at this stage. 2646. Through
the process we will also look at the ranking of the UK - what we call the Anglo-American
model - which is very much focused on the academic route. We have three factories
in France, and our experience there has shown us that French students in our
sector come out very well qualified, with a broad based experience both of practical
science and life. We have good experience of German factories, having two sister
plants there. Through that experience we have found that students qualifying
there have a good vocational and specialist training. They have a good experience
of life and are much more rounded as individuals. I can speak personally here
as a graduate of Queen's University's Food Science course. I thoroughly enjoyed
that course, but on reflection I feel that taking a year out as part
of a sandwich course would have better prepared me for a career in the food
industry. 2647. We
have had experience of skills shortage at graduate level, and still do. We have
extreme difficulty in recruiting and retaining graduates of suitable calibre
in the industry. It could be technical or production, but we have to make a
lot of effort to do that. Each year we see that becoming more and more difficult
as there is competition from other sectors in industry. Also, some of the graduates
are not of the standard we would want to recruit. I personally have run a number
of job recruitment campaigns for purchasing and it took three recruitment exercises
to come up with two suitable candidates. We do not believe in employing people
for the sake of filling job, they have got to be the right people. 2648. We very much believe in the
partnership approach, and John Cromie will expand on that. I have touched
very briefly on the placement year from Queen's University, which would be a
very helpful thing to put into place, and there is also international placement.
I know that some students are placed in the USA through the Department of
Enterprise, Trade and Investment, or some associated overseas organisation,
and we want to encourage more of that. There are places for 140 students each year, and we
should encourage our young people to get as much exposure to the broader global
market. When they return they are more rounded, and their minds are more
open. Unfortunately, outside Northern Ireland, there is not much credence given
to our political situation - the world is moving on. We are very aware, as an
international player, that we must ensure that our young people have a global perspective. 2649. To
generalise, we recommend increased funding and specific courses, increased emphasis on sandwich
years and international placement years, and participation in course
setting between industry and the education providers, and the need for greater
partnership with Queen's University and Loughry college. Again, we want to see
the industry and the academic institutions working closely together to tailor
the whole delivery to the needs. There is an opportunity for us to work and
collaborate more closely together. 2650. I
will now pass over to John Cromie who will give some specific detail. 2651. Mr Cromie: I felt it would be useful today
to highlight some of the partnership approaches that we have had with local
education providers and local companies in the Craigavon area, and tell you
a little bit about the experiences we have had in that respect. My main function
is working within the agricultural agri-processing division. I am based in Dungannon. There
is also a human resources manager based in Craigavon for that division. I have had
some experience in the Craigavon factory too, and I have been in Dungannon
for the last three years. I felt qualified to come along today and speak about
the Craigavon initiatives especially. I am sort of wearing two hats, because
we do some of these initiatives in the local Tyrone area, as well with the Dungannon
factory. 2652. I
want to highlight some of the core initiatives that we have been involved in
- in partnership with local employers and educational providers as a kind of
triangle approach. The wide-open learning initiative is one that Moy Park has been involved with in Craigavon.
There is a computer suite available to us at the Upper Bann Institute. We have
been working along with the North American Coal Corporation Organisation (NACCO),
who have just been in here before us, and also Ulster Carpet Mills to recognise
some of the computer skill shortages that we see in our industries and companies.
We have been working specifically on this new initiative called the European
Computer Driving Licence. We see that as important to our industry, as indeed
do industries such as Ulster Carpet Mills, with the increasing use of automated
machinery. Employees need to have keyboard skills to operate pricing machines
and weighing machines in our factory. These are core skills that are important
for our industries as a joint partnership approach. To date, there are around
60 people working towards that particular qualification, and there has been
a high level of interest in the factory and the offices, and also from the salaried
people in both. We see that as a successful involvement with other businesses. 2653. We
have quite a strong partnership with the local college, the Upper Bann Institute. We have a partnership
approach in a number of different areas, including a numeracy and literacy programme.
Alan Gibson has mentioned the bottom 20% of society, and that quite a large
proportion of those people work in the food industry. We carried
out a survey, as our paper to the Committee shows, and we also do induction
questionnaires when people join us. At that stage we try to assess their numeracy
and literacy skills. The need for numeracy and literacy is very important, speaking
specifically of Moy Park in this instance. We need people to be able to recognise
date codes and products. Many of the sleeves that go on some of our products
are very similar in colour, but there are differences in the ingredients in
certain products. This is an example of how we see the importance of ensuring
we have the right blend of numeracy and literacy. Employees have to count a
certain number of products into a tray or box. For that reason we feel it is
important to recognise difficulties in those areas, and we try to counter them. 2654. Our
solution was to train five in-house tutors - people that the operatives on the
floor could recognise and relate to. They act as tutors and mentors to staff
during their time with the company. We also use IT to try and remove the stigma
of taking extra classes in numeracy and literacy, for example. We give people
the opportunity to train for the driving licence theory test. When other workers
in the factory asked them why they were leaving the factory, they would be told
about the training. In that way we were able to bring those people along as
well. We allow them to use the technology in the computer suite that we have
built in the factory itself, which helps them to pick up those skills. We develop
that further, and to try to discover what other skill shortages they had. To
date this has been very successful, with 20 people having gone through in the
last year. 2655. We
have been working at other partnerships, dealing with our multi-skilling approach to engineering.
We work closely with the Upper Bann Institute, which took over the old Craigavon
Training Centre where we would have got most of our apprentices in the past.
We are now trying to multi-skill our skilled maintenance engineers and electricians,
so that the maintenance fitters can work on electrics, and vice versa. We are
taking that approach forward, based on the Engineering Training Council guidelines,
with the NVQs at Levels 2 and 3 that a lot of the apprentices are currently
working on. That gives us a greater degree of flexibility
and skills. It enables people to gain new skills in order to justify higher
wage rates. We have recognised that there are skill shortages among experienced
fitters and electricians. Mr Gibson has mentioned that we have had to re-run
and re-advertise interviews and job applications. We have also had the same
experience in trying to get skilled maintenance people. 2656. We
also have some IT training at higher levels. Within the last year we have moved
from Lotus Smart Suite to Microsoft systems. We had a need for training in Microsoft
Excel, as we are no longer using the old Lotus 123 spreadsheet system. In partnership
with the Upper Bann Institute, we are using their computer suite facilities
to give our accounts and wages staff the opportunity to brush up on their skills,
and learn the new Microsoft packages. 2657. Finally,
I will mention our NVQ approach in the factory. Moy Park is very proud of our
NVQ work, which has been taking place over the last five years. To date, in
the three factories, we have over 1,000 people who have achieved NVQ Level 2
in meat and poultry operations. A further 20 people went on to successfully
take Level 3, and five people
have achieved NVQ Level 4, and we are very proud of that. Through taking
those people through Levels 3 and 4, we have won major portfolio prizes for
them within the meat and poultry industry. This is recognition of our investment,
and the skill levels that are flourishing in Northern Ireland. The NVQ approach
has helped us to retain labour. It has also helped us to encourage people to
take on new qualifications in work. Bearing in mind that some people join us
with no formal qualifications, we are able to train them regardless of age,
and take them through to NVQ level as well. 2658. The Chairperson: That was an extremely helpful summary. You have
identified literacy problems, and have gone a lot further - giving a useful written submission,
and backing it up in your presentation. I detect much compassion in the way
that you deal with this. It shocks me that even the most basic literacy skills
are sometimes not present, such as reading labels or counting pieces of chicken. 2659. When
these young people come to you with their personal profile from school, does
it perhaps indicate incorrectly that they have those skills? My second question
is more serious. I am not going to attack the teaching profession. What more can the Government do to emulate
what you are doing, and perhaps go further, making sure that when young people
get to your stage, they do not have these appallingly low levels of literacy
and numeracy? 2660. Mr Cromie: The first indicator we get
is the application form. With job clubs at local training and employment agencies
and so on, it is not always the person's handwriting on the application form. On seeing
someone's handwriting it is sometimes quick and easy to identify if there
is perhaps a potential numeracy and literacy problem through his or her spelling,
grammar et cetera. We do not place a great emphasis on that, for example, in shortlisting
for interview. We tend to interview people and let them prove themselves to
us socially. 2661. Once
we have identified that, the induction process is their next major hurdle. We
have trained our induction co-ordinators to look out for people who are perhaps
not taking part in the induction very well because of these issues and problems.
We also get them to look at their written submissions when they are filling
in their forms. There is some very familiar information that they can fill in
quite quickly; they will struggle with other parts. The co-ordinators are trained to have a sympathetic
approach - to speak to them, maybe try to isolate them at tea break and
flag this up to them gently, if there is an issue there. They try to get someone
to be a scribe for them, to help them through that documentation. We make sure
that we do not take away from their dignity and self-esteem with this approach. 2662. For
the Government to help, we need to work closer with our education providers, so that they become
more acutely aware of our needs. In that respect, they can then lobby
the Government, and perhaps set aside more information technology (IT) training
with more packages based around numeracy and literacy issues. In that way, they
are closing the gap before these people actually come to us. People from East
Tyrone College of Further & Higher Education, for example, have recently
approached us on a numeracy and literacy initiative. They will bring a mobile
classroom to the factory, with a mobile computer suite based in the back of
a lorry. They can bring people out of the factory to look at IT, and in that
way tackle problems of numeracy and literacy. 2663. Mr Dallat: You have gone to extraordinary
lengths, even teaming up with a local primary school. Although the number benefiting
from that is very small, it is unique to me and I have never heard of
that before. 2664. Mr Cromie: We also work quite closely
with the business education partnership in all of the district council areas.
I am involved with that partnership in Dungannon & South Tyrone Borough
Council. Using this partnership we can play our part with the local schools
and colleges. We give talks to the pupils, making them aware of the company.
We also work on the Young Enterprise Northern Ireland system, sending some of
our trainee managers to give them training experience in local schools. In that
way, we can get the message
across that Moy Park is a training organisation - and more than just
a chicken processor. We can get rid of the connotations of a dead end and unexciting
job. We talk about our sales, marketing and product development - the facets
that use the latest technology, and which people may not be aware of. 2665. Mr Carrick: I am a local person, so I
am very interested in the contribution that your firm makes to employment in
the area. It is true to say that you have had difficulty with recruitment of
labour in the past - indeed, you employ people from areas outside the normal
travel-to-work area. If there is a lack of local labour - and you have had to recruit operatives
through recruitment agencies - how do you protect the integrity of your
labour skills base when you take in agency workers? Do they have to go through
the induction process, and what level of skills do they bring that is not available
in the local area? What level of understanding do you have with the agencies
in the type of person they send? I understand that there have been difficulties between
your existing staff and agency staff, because the agency staff have different
terms and conditions. How do you cope with that and what damage, if any, has
that done to the production process? 2666. Mr Gibson: It is not our preference to
use temporary or agency operatives, but it is essential in today's labour market.
The agency takes a fee and therefore it is more expensive for the company. The
learning curve and re-education are an issue. You may be aware that we are bringing
in workers from as far away as Portugal - not by choice, but because we cannot
recruit enough local operatives. That is an indication of how the economy has
benefited and grown. It also shows that the remaining labour force is unemployable,
and we must get them into employment. 2667. The
company must ensure that its assets are utilised. We have millions of pounds
invested in assets and
if those assets and machines are not being operated, the business is not sustainable
in a global or a European market environment. We have gone to great lengths
bringing in the Portuguese, because we need staff for the evening and night
shift. We must work to full capacity every day so that we can service our customers
and get recovery through the plant. Our costs increase year-on-year,
whether it is the cost of energy or electricity - which in our business in Northern
Ireland is up by 25%. We must not let our assets remain idle. From
a commercial point of view, we will go to whatever lengths are necessary
to remain at full capacity. It is an issue that does need to be managed. It
is not the ideal scenario. 2668. Mr Cromie: In relation to paperwork and training, key elements
of induction apply to the temporary and agency worker. Those key elements
would be our hygiene and health and safety procedures, and other types of risk
assessment. We have ensured that everything is translated. About one in every
four of our Portuguese staff speak fluent English, and the remainder have an
understanding of English. The agencies are also bringing in temporary staff
from Magherafelt, Dungannon, Craigavon and the Belfast area. We do not have
as much emphasis on investing in their training. If that person does not reach
a minimum standard, we would take steps to ensure they can get there quickly,
or look for replacements. 2669. We
have to safeguard the jobs of the Northern Ireland people working in our factories.
As Mr Gibson pointed out, our first preference is to Northern Ireland employees
and our own employees as well. Unfortunately our district council areas
have unemployment levels of 3% to 4%, which is both good and bad. We are taking
initiatives, going to the local training and employment agencies to attract
the people who are signing on. We have also set up interviews in these agencies
in the hope that people may be interested. Our unemployment levels are dropping
to the hard core now, leaving only those who are actively avoiding work or are
still unable to find employment. 2670. Mr Carrick: Regulations governing agency
workers are different
to those applying to the workforce that you would employ directly. That
is a weakness in the legislation and this has to be addressed at another level. 2671. Mr Cromie: They are beginning to address
that in Northern
Ireland. For our Portuguese workers, we use reputable international agencies
that comply with all UK laws. They give us written assurances to that effect. 2672. Mr Beggs: Your basic problem appears to be that you cannot
get enough operatives. In your submission you also said that there are severe
skills shortages in particular areas, and you mentioned engineering, information
technology (IT), food technical staff and production management. Is the shortage
at degree or sub-degree level? Where do you think the additional resources
and focus are needed, at the upper rather than the middle educational sector?
You also mentioned funding issues that needed to be addressed in the further
education sector, and that it deserves more priority in the allocation
of resources. Could you explain or expand on this? 2673. Mr Cromie: Mr Gibson is more informed
about the shortages at graduate level through his experience in the purchasing
department, which tend to be at the higher levels. We have already mentioned skills shortages
in the sub-degree
level in engineering. As a company we continually invest in an apprenticeship
system. We constantly bring apprentices through, and at various times
we appoint new first and second year apprentices. There are skills shortages
in Northern Ireland and the price of labour seems to be a defining factor. Companies
tend to invest less in an apprenticeship system and prefer to take experienced
people, offer them a higher wage and not incur training costs -basically buying in the
labour. 2674. Mr Gibson: Our technical director, Ken
Baird, would be looking for qualified personnel from Queen's or Loughry - I
have alluded to that in my opening comments. We tend to follow this Anglo-American
model, which is very academically based. We want to encourage more graduates
to take a year out and get some life experience. It is not an excuse to go to
Germany and drink lots of beer, but to go there and live a little bit.
They gain experience of working
abroad, and hopefully achieve a greater level of maturity. The closer
the food industry and the academic providers can work together to tailor the
courses the better. If we can collaborate it will sharpen the focus on our industrial
needs. 2675. Mr Beggs: You alluded to the "poaching" aspect - a person
being trained by one company, and then moving to another company because it
has offered an extra 50p an hour. There is a levy on employers in the building
sector in Northern Ireland that funds training with the main construction companies. Do you perceive
a need for a similar system in the engineering sector? 2676. Mr Cromie: It would be helpful, encouraging
firms to invest in young apprentice engineers and electricians with a view to
the long-term. Many manufacturing companies have short-term views and needs.
However, we have tended to take a long-term view because we have invested consistently,
over a number of years. We have found this system to be useful. 2677. Mrs Nelis: You are trying to stress the importance
of the food industry, and I agree with you. Every second or third advertisement
on television is about food,
so you would imagine that the industry would attract people, especially
those who want secure employment. However, despite your best efforts, you are
having difficulty attracting the type of trainee you want. You have flagged
up functional illiteracy and numeracy difficulties that exist here - something
that the Committee
has addressed before. Prior to your arrival, the Mayor said that a unique
educational system operates in this area. Obviously that unique educational
system is failing
about 20% of young people - maybe because it is based on the notion of
success and failure. Perhaps that is where we must start that level of psychology. 2678. You
have certain ideas of your own; you said that there is an opportunity here to
promote a centre of excellence for food education, which is being missed by
the educational system. Can you explain how that should be addressed? You point
to France as a model that we might want to explore. You also spoke about the issue of partnerships.
You said the more partnerships the better, because partnerships develop
the issue of multi-skills and help to explore where the gaps are. How can we
improve the partnership model? Does that model work in France or Germany? 2679. I
commend you on the fact that you are running the European Computer Driving Licence,
which is an excellent
course. I can recommend it because I am doing it myself. I find it useful
and, in fact, our council is offering it. How does that course help students
that are functionally illiterate, because you need to be quite literate to do
it? 2680. Mr Gibson: We have taken a number of graduates from
the French system. Two have come to work in Moy Park in technical and development roles. Comparing
somebody from the French system with someone at graduate level from the Northern
Ireland food system, the French graduate would tend to be up and running much
quicker. They seem to have a higher level of maturity and greater commercial
awareness. The sandwich course - taking a year out to work in the food
industry during your studies - helps you to develop, mature and gain experience.
Students from France compliment the practical with the learning, and that is
important. Also, agriculture and food are such a huge part of the French economy,
and the government has got behind it. They are ensuring that they are focusing on
producing high quality graduates who are targeted towards the industry.
We have gone in to recruit from their system, to bring graduates into Moy Park. 2681. Here
in Craigavon, we operate a partnership with Amsterdam Business School. In my
purchasing function,
I bring in placement students from the business school for six months
at a time. They come to Moy Park to do a specific job, which has a clear job description and
clear responsibility. If we had the same facility in Northern Ireland, I would
be delighted to bring undergraduates in for six or twelve months, to work in
pre-defined jobs in the industry. That helps us as an employer, in terms of
recruitment. If it is a local person, they could be re-employed after graduating.
I do not have that opportunity to the same degree, so I have to go to Amsterdam
to bring in students. The competency of students from the Dutch system, which
we have not touched on, is very high. They are very competent, well rounded
people. That is my personal experience, and I pass it on to the Committee, for
what it is worth. 2682. Mr Cromie: I will come back to two of
the points that Mrs Nelis made. My understanding of what we could learn from
the German model, and emulate, are the close links between their education providers
at community level and local German businesses. They tend to touch much more
on practical skills. They tailor courses around the practical needs of the people
coming out of their education system, and to the needs of the manufacturing
economy. Increased funding for local colleges, such as East Tyrone and Upper
Bann Institutes, will help them fund and make available more places, and give
more options to companies such as ourselves. 2683. I am encouraged to hear that
you are participating in the European Computer Driving Licence as well.
I see that having a knock-on effect. People tell others in the factory about
it, and this encourages others in the factory, who have low self-esteem, to
go forward when they hear that a colleague has done it and has been pleased
with what he or she has achieved. 2684. In
Moy Park, people have embarked on NVQs. We offer the opportunity for advancement
through internal advertisements, encouraging people to attain a level two NVQ
- or for some jobs, a level three qualification. It is seen as a means of advancement,
and we are encouraging them to take as much training as possible. Some of it
is done in their own time, which is a real credit to them. It is all about encouragement.
The NVQs started by targeting a group of people who then sold it to the others.
Word-of-mouth really sells it, and people get excited about it and want to put
themselves forward for it. 2685. Mrs Nelis: Has there been any resistance
to training at all? 2686. Mr Cromie: We get little resistance to the training
because we give people the
opportunity to come off-line to do it. We put the resources there, we allow
for a certain
percentage of additional employment to let people get time off-line.
They are not pressurised, and we are giving them enough time to carry on with the training. At first, people
laughed about NVQs. However, as they saw more and more people do it,
the message snowballed. People
began to see it as a meaningful qualification, and an opportunity for them to
learn more about the company as well, which makes their job more interesting. 2687. Mr Gibson: I will add just one final fact.
Over a three-year
period, we would typically spend £1·5 million on training - 30% is grant-aided
- but that is training that, in reality, we should not need to offer. Our competitors,
whether they be in Holland or France, are able to use those millions to re-invest
in technology, or in other parts of their business. 2688. Mr Byrne: I thank you for your analytical
and informative written
submission. The message is generally in line with my own thinking. In relation to the
in-house training, it seems that you are being forced to do that in order
to improve the basic skills requirements of your operatives. Do you require
closer collaboration with colleges in order to deliver further NVQs? How flexible, or not,
are colleges in tailoring their course provision to suit your needs? 2689. Mr
Gibson addressed the graduate placement programme. Are food technology courses
in Northern Ireland too theoretically based and perhaps a little outdated? 2690. Mr Cromie: I will pick up on the first
two points on the NVQs and the inflexibility of colleges. The NVQ system that
we use in the meat and poultry courses is actually based on UK standards. We developed an in-house system, so we
actually accredited ourselves as an NVQ centre. We are able to deliver
the NVQs in that way. That had an employment effect in our own area. It also
meant that there was local ownership. It was the encouragement of the NVQ manager
and assessors that also helped to sell that. There was less collaboration with
colleges at that level. 2691. We
are now considering a change in the NVQ to the City & Guilds structure.
That is an opportunity for our local colleges to get involved. It would be much
more formalised, and in line with what they have previously delivered. There
has been a noticeable shift in the flexibility of colleges in the last two years.
Loughry College has been excellent of late with us in that regard. Indeed, Upper
Bann Institute has also been flexible. They offer Saturday morning classes and
will put on two classes
in a day so that our night shift workers can leave work and do two or
three hours training. The evening shift workers can also do the training in
the morning before they go to work. That flexibility is the way forward for
local businesses and colleges to justify expenditure on training, and also to
ensure that training is being directed exactly where it is needed. 2692. Mr Gibson: With regard to the question
on graduates and whether the courses are too theoretical I referred to my personal
experience. It is 14 years since I left Queen's, so I cannot comment on today's
food science courses
from a personal point of view. However, for a person to spend three or
four years of his or her life to study science is a great opportunity, and there
is a view that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity that should be encouraged. 2693. I
am a firm believer that anybody who comes out of our education system must be
able to be utilized by industry, and deliver value. One way of doing that is
to provide people who are rounded. Too much focus on science means that you
may never get the roundness that you could have otherwise achieved. Unless you
are going into detailed research and technology, you must counter-balance that
when you get into your job. It is a personal view, but the more balance that
we can have - I referred to the sandwich course - the better. One practical
way, with regard to the food science courses in Northern Ireland, is that I,
as a director looking to recruit young people, could create openings for year-long
placements in specific jobs. It would help me and also the student. That experience, no matter how
theoretical, would mean that they are so much quicker off the ground whenever
they are seeking full-time employment. 2694. Mr Byrne: I accept the resonance that
you are making about
the sandwich year and the practical experience. I want to know the actual
content of the food technology courses and the food science degrees. Are they
too abstract in scientific content, with not enough food technology application? 2695. Mr Gibson: I am not qualified to answer
that question in relation to content of today's courses. I can only talk about
my own experience, and at that time the emphasis was on science and theory.
I cannot give any judgement of today's courses because I do not know the syllabus.
I can just look at the output and talk about the sandwich course. 2696. Mr Bryne: I admire the success of Moy
Park, how it has
expanded onto mainland Europe and America, and is now part of a global
food business. Is the biggest limiting factor the raw material supplies, the
sales and marketing areas, or the workforce? 2697. Mr Gibson: In relation to the future growth of the
business, I would say that the biggest threat -setting aside competition - is
labour, because at present we are bringing the labour to the assets. In the
future, if we are unable to bring in labour, we will have to move our assets
worldwide to find labour. 2698. The Chairperson: Can you give a rough estimate of how many
Portuguese workers you have had to bring in as a percentage of the total company?
Also, what is the pay rate on those hard-to-fill vacancies - is it at minimum
wage or above minimum wage? 2699. Mr Cromie: It is certainly above minimum
wage. Our operatives' rates are approximately £4·10 an hour for the initial
four-week training period. With the latest pay rounds and wage negotiations,
that is likely to rise. We pay £4·70 to £4·75 for our minimum basic workers
at grade C. Our other weekly paid rates go up to £5·15 and above, and supervisory
level and above is £6 plus. We are certainly above the current rate of £3·70. 2700. Mrs Nelis: Can I invite you to Derry?
We have 10,000 people unemployed - about 50% of the work force. 2701. The Chairperson: I thank both Mr Gibson
and Mr Cromie for
their interesting remarks and also for the written submission. We wish you and
your company well in the future. Thank you. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 10 May 2001 Members present: Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr R Hutchinson Ms McWilliams Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Mr Paul Hannigan
) Letterkenny Institute of Technology Mr Jack O'Herlihy
) 2702. The Deputy Chairperson: Good afternoon, you are very welcome. After your
presentation, the Committee will have some questions to put to you. 2703. Mr Hannigan: In my presentation I have
given some background information on the system of institutes of technology,
but I shall also focus on Letterkenny's position within it. Letterkenny Institute
of Technology is typical of the other colleges. It is one of the smaller examples,
but its structure and trends are similar to the others around the country. 2704. The
map shows the 13 institutes of technology operating in the Republic of
Ireland. Though it has only been established for the past year and a half, the
name of Tipperary Rural Business and Development Institute (TRBDI) was recently
changed to Tipperary Institute. It has not yet joined our system, but it is
an important development. 2705. The
second slide gives an indication of the growth of the sector over the years.
It is important to remember that it was only established at the beginning of
the 1970s, and many colleges are celebrating their 30th anniversary
this year. From the slide you can see that in 1975-76 there were over 3,000 full-time students in the
colleges, and by 1999-2000 that had grown to 46,000. The major changes started to occur around 1987.
That can be related to the Republic of Ireland's economic history, for one could
say class sizes increased by 100% around that time. The increase also
tied in with the Programme for National Recovery in 1987 and agreements since
then. 2706. The changes in college enrolments
and the fortunes of the Irish economy have therefore been tightly entwined
since 1987. Right through the 1990s until the present, there have been massive
increases in enrolments. We are trying to help the college infrastructure keep
pace. 2707. The
third slide shows the types of programmes Letterkenny Institute of Technology
offers. Courses are provided in the areas of science, engineering and business.
Science includes computing, while business includes languages, accountancy,
marketing and so on. They
are broad areas, but the three generic headings are business, engineering and
science; that is where it started. 2708. The
basic National Certificate qualification can be achieved in a two-year programme.
If students have obtained a 55% average across their subjects at the end of
those two years, they may return to do a diploma year. On completion of a diploma
they can return to do a degree. The beauty of the ladder system is that, if
students decide to leave after two years to work, they have the option
of returning to complete the diploma at a later stage. If they do not attain
the 55% average at the end of year two and gain work experience, they can
return afterwards to complete a diploma. 2709. In
other words, the work experience makes up for the deficit in academic achievement
and gives them the chance to return. Our experience of students who have been
out for a while has been that their maturity has improved remarkably, and they
know exactly what they can and cannot achieve with their qualifications. Students
who return after some time tend to take things more seriously than previously,
and that is very important. 2710. As your documents will show,
the annual growth in gross domestic product (GDP) in the Republic of
Ireland from 1990-98
was around 6%. That is also shown in comparison with that of other countries.
There has been huge development in the Irish economy over the period. If you
look at the employment graph, you will see the jumps from 1994-2000. Employment
is at its highest ever in the Republic of Ireland, with up to 1·7 million people
currently employed. 2711. We
are struggling at the moment to maintain skills in certain areas. Pressure is
being put on the colleges to supply graduates who can remedy the skill shortage.
We are doing our best to balance a number of issues in a situation of declining entrance demographics.
Before this we have had non-stop growth and success. The environment is changing
slightly for the future, and I shall expand on that as I continue. 2712. Certain
trends are obvious in entrance levels to full-time higher education. As you
can see, there has been growth in entry from all sectors, ranging from higher
professional down to unskilled manual between 1992 and 1998, and that is continuing.
We are moving towards a situation of mass third-level education of which anyone
who wishes can avail. We must decide whether it is the right thing for everyone.
Some people may find themselves on courses to which they are unsuited, and they
might have been better taking some other option. It might take them the first
or second year to realise that and look elsewhere. 2713. We
are coming to terms with that issue too. While some might see it as desirable
for everyone to move into third-level education, that might not be the best
solution for all. We must keep that in mind when analysing the retention of
students and completion of courses. 2714. As our document shows, the
profile of the working population has changed. The majority of people in the
65+ or 60-64 age
group have had only primary education; now nearly 30% receive third-level education,
and that will continue to increase. For example, the majority of modern
students now have Leaving Certificate and third-level qualifications, but that
was not previously the case; the profile is changing. 2715. The major problem facing
us, particularly in institutes of technology, is the decline in school leavers.
This is because our students have traditionally been taken directly from school
into colleges. As illustrated, there is expected to be a drop of around 25%
in the 15-year period from 1998-2012. That is a big drop-off in our current
market. There are now 13 colleges, with a broad range of courses in each. This
will force us into a competitive position vis-à-vis each other as well as the
universities. 2716. We
shall all have to grapple with the situation. The major issues facing us are
the skill needs of the economy, the decline in school leavers, technology-based
qualifications, and adult learners; our document lists them for you. 2717. Like our college in Letterkenny,
its sister institutes were initially regional technical colleges set
up around the country. In January 1998 they were all renamed institutes of technology.
We work on an open national applications system. If you look at the statistics
in front of you, you will find it is obvious that we are taking the majority
of our students from our own region. That is a trend in each of the colleges
at the moment. They started as regional colleges, then moved to a national application
system and became institutes of technology. Now they are once again catering
primarily for the people in their own regions. 2718. The
intake of students from County Donegal to Letterkenny Institute of Technology has risen from about
50% four years ago
to around 75% now. The remainder of the students can come from anywhere
in Ireland. We take people from Monaghan because of the good bus route; many
students come from Dublin because they have relations in Donegal, and the remainder
tends to come from the surrounding counties of Sligo, Leitrim and Mayo. We are
happy that 76% of the student intake choose Letterkenny Institute of Technology
as their first preference, and 75% of the intake is from County Donegal; our
local region is supporting us. 2719. You were interested in where
people get jobs and where they end up. The ladder of opportunity shows
that students are moving from certificate to diploma to degree. On average, 50% return
to do a diploma or degree, so they are taking further study. It might
not be with Letterkenny
Institute of Technology; the students may go to another college or university, but on average
50% are returning
to education after taking a certificate or diploma. 2720. A
survey undertaken in November on students who left the college in May and June
showed that on average 30% to 35% had found employment. There is a huge trend
in the Republic of Ireland for taking a year out - around 40,000 Irish students
are currently in Australia. Therefore if you are looking for a major source of graduates at the
moment, they are in Australia. The number taking a year out has remained
at about 5% to 6%. The number of graduates looking for work is about the same
as the national average unemployment rate, so we are not too concerned about
it. 2721. The
interesting thing from our point of view is that, when we looked at where graduates
were finding jobs, we found that about 40% do so in Donegal, something that
was not previously the case. All along our argument was that, if the opportunities
existed in the county, graduates would stay to work there, but the necessary
level of employment was not there to retain them. The east coast is still drawing
a large percentage of our graduates, and it has taken a big jump this year from
26% to 43%. That indicates the profile of the country, and the Government's
strategy at the moment is to try to regenerate the regions. Letterkenny Institute
of Technology is working closely with the Industrial Development Agency (IDA)
to get industry to locate in the north-west, particularly to give our graduates
an opportunity. 2722. We
have listed the services to industry. Jack O'Herlihy is the head of development in the Letterkenny
Institute of Technology and deals specifically with the college's business development
centre. 2723. The
last couple of slides point out the dispersal of graduate employment throughout
the country, particularly for primary and higher degree holders. It mirrors
the Letterkenny graduates statistics; over 60% of graduates are employed on
the east coast in Dublin, Kildare, Meath and Wicklow. The index at the end shows
that those counties are employing 1·6 times the number of graduates they produce. In the border
counties of Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, Louth, Cavan and Monaghan, it works
out at about one third. Therefore, regardless of whether people from the border
counties graduate from Letterkenny or from Dublin or Galway, the Donegal region
can only sustain about one third of the graduates it produces. Our argument
is that, if the opportunities for employment in the region are improved, more
people could be attracted back, and that has recently been borne out by some
new companies setting up there. 2724. It
is a similar story for certificate and diploma holders; the east coast is dominant.
That is why there is a three-region set-up in the Republic at the moment. Region
one is the east coast; region two consists of the cities of Galway, Limerick
and Cork - three university cities with larger graduate employment. Region
three includes the
midlands, the north-west and the south-east, which do not retain their
fair share of graduates in relation to the numbers they produce. 2725. Mr O'Herlihy: The institutions have a
dual mandate. They are intended to be academic centres of excellence. As such, they
are supposed to be meeting the needs of the economy. They are therefore mandated
to produce middle- and higher-level technicians. In addition to being academic
centres of excellence, they are designed to be agents for the economic development
of the regions they serve. That is my job description as head of development - in
other words, I am the manager responsible for linking the institutions
to the economy. 2726. While
it is easy to say, it is hard to do. Without belittling other academics or myself,
they tend to believe there is a right answer that they know and will provide
for you. As you are aware, that will not work with industry, for it is not like
that. There is an important educational retraining process to re-equip us to
work with industry. We work with it by providing services in the marketplace like any other consultant,
except that we do not do so for profit. We do some training and some consultant
advisory services and research work. 2727. I
shall give some simple examples of the type of research we carry out; it could
hardly be termed rocket science. There is an engineering company in the town
that makes fish-farming cages. The value of the fish in those cages can be up
to £2 million. They walk along a light walkway system, and the cages can be
up to one or two miles off the coast. People were falling off the little walkways,
and they asked us to design a more flexible, stronger walkway so that the cages
would not be damaged. It is a practical problem to solve. 2728. Another
simple example concerns a company producing an almanac for Ireland each year. Its members came to
us and said, "Next year we do not want a book but a CD and web site". You take one form of publication
and put the material into another. 2729. Those
are the types of research projects we do. In the area of consultancy, we have
been working very closely for the last four years with the University of Ulster
in the north-west region on the management of change for micro-enterprises with innovation and change.
We sourced a good group from the University of Brighton who had developed
a method of working with small businesses. We then attracted funding and were
trained to use that method in our region. You are therefore continually trying
to act as a gateway to your region for best practice from wherever you can
source it. 2730. The
other important aspect of the development function is that we work closely with
the three major development agencies in our region. They are the IDA, which
tries to attract inward investment from outside of the country, Enterprise Ireland,
which looks after indigenous industry, and Údarás na Gaeltachta, which looks
after the Irish-speaking part of Donegal - up to 30% of people in Donegal speak
Irish. 2731. While
we work with those three agencies in trying to help create new jobs, we have
a business development centre on the campus. If we provide the ambience for
people to invest in our town and give them the facilities to do so and start
up new projects, they are more likely to come. We therefore work very closely
with those agencies. 2732. Broadly
speaking, those are the things we do in working with the region. The important
thing is that the experience is then fed back into courses for the professional
development of your staff. We pay extra to do that; if I have a lecturer in
marketing who works for a day with a company in the programme we are doing,
that person gets paid extra for his work. It is a very crude market reality.
If you pay people, they are more interested, and the benefit to the institute
is that staff bring back the experience to make the marketing course more real. 2733. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much for
describing the Letterkenny experience. Members will have been thinking about
your presentation, and there will certainly be some questions to ask. I remind
the members that I was speaking to Mr Hannigan before the meeting; he agreed
to share what they had learned from the weaknesses that they had come across
in their system. It is not just a question of jewels in the crown. He kindly agreed to
share with us the limitations that they had established and how they
had sought to overcome them. 2734. Mr Dallat: As a former teacher with the
County Donegal Vocational Education Committee, albeit not in Letterkenny but
Carndonagh, I am more than happy to see people from the area. You placed great
emphasis on the need to match skills with industry. While it may not be your
direct responsibility, I should like to hear your views on what may happen in
the future as the population declines. The bottom 20% of the population in Northern
Ireland has serious literacy and numeracy problems. How do you address the needs
of those people in a way that will cater for the needs of industry, which only
recently realised they are valuable and intelligent human beings who may only
be in their forties? In the Republic the school leaving age only went up from
14 years of age in the mid seventies. Are those people included in your planning? 2735. Mr Hannigan: Demographics were considered
across the whole sector. What you said about matching the skill needs to the
economy is correct. Each college has employed an access officer, funded by the Department
of Education and Science, to make it possible for those people to return to
mainstream education or to match training programmes to them. 2736. There
are two real parts to the job. One is to look at the retention of existing students,
and the other is to look for what are termed "non-standard applicants" - people
who have not traditionally been involved in education. Our access officer was
appointed recently, but because of the recent problems with Fruit of the Loom,
Donegal is probably one of the most analysed counties in the country. The Donegal
Employment Initiative Taskforce originated from the Fruit of the Loom job losses
to try to deal with the problems of the people made redundant. Deciding how
to deal with that is a consortium approach between other training agencies such as
Foras Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS) and ourselves. The access officer's role is to
break down any invisible barriers, getting people back onto programmes and tailoring
programmes to their needs. That is what we are working towards at the moment. 2737. We
found that, while the institute might have a certain approach to try and attract
people, they came across other major obstacles. When dealing with the people
from Fruit of the Loom, we found that it was not the case that they did not want to join a programme.
They were concerned about the childcare situation, what transport problems were
involved and whether they would lose their social welfare benefits if they joined
the programme before a certain date. All those obstacles were there, and it
became apparent when they came to look at the options that, while there was
no obstacle to getting on a programme, there were obstacles between stepping
from one to the other. The access officer's job is to identify the obstacles
and either eradicate or find a way round them, making it easier for people to
come back to education. That is where many of the issues are currently arising,
and they must be sorted out. 2738. It
is important to identify problems and make it as easy as possible to get people back onto programmes
or into mainstream education. I did not mention it in the presentation,
but new 18-month skill-shortage programmes have been run nationally over the
last three years. People spend six months in college, six months on work experience
and then a further six months in college. The programmes are aimed at bringing
people back to education and training them to be industry-ready technicians. 2739. In
our experience, the majority of people who have taken part in the programme
have been in their mid twenties and early thirties. They have had other experiences
but are now deciding that they want to change and do something different. The experience
of the college has been positive, for those who are returning to education
have found themselves displaced from other jobs. They are finding that, once back in
education, they are not happy simply to have done the 18 months; they
want to go further, and they have recognised that they can. In direct answer to your question, the
problem is first to get rid of the barriers that stop people getting
as far as your front door and then make it as simple as you can to facilitate
them when they are in college. 2740. Mr Byrne: I should like to thank Mr Hannigan
and Mr O'Herlihy for their presentation. We obviously also have colleges of
further education, but what is the unique difference in institutes of technology
that helps promote local economic development? What sort of formal relationships
does an institute of technology have with local industry and such authorities as
the County Council? 2741. My
second point concerns the type of course. I know you have science, engineering and business. Who
determines the content
of those courses? Is it the institute of technology itself or are there
national standards? 2742. Mr O'Herlihy: I shall break it down into
the further-education colleges and us. I have been working in Letterkenny Institute
of Technology for 27 of the 30 years it has been there. Our biggest difficulty
in the beginning was establishing credibility. That was not successfully established
until we were a degree-awarding institution. Thereafter, when people came in
on the first day, they knew that, if they applied themselves, they
could finish with a degree as good as that which they could get anywhere else.
It did not matter to them if it took them a year or 18 months longer than
the brighter ones
who went straight to university on day one, for they got where they
wanted, and that was fairly important. I suggest that if you are not a full
third-level institution you do not enjoy credibility. 2743. The second point is about
the links. For example, we have a business advisory council drawn from
a cross-section of the business community in our region. If we wish to undertake
an initiative, whether it is a formal course or a review of an existing option,
we use it as a sounding board to advise us. We work with the formal structure
of advisory groups. Additionally, we are very actively involved in such groups as the Chamber
of Commerce and Industry and the Irish Business and Employers' Confederation
(IBEC), and we use existing networks to ensure we are attuned to what they say.
The local authority - in our case Donegal County Council - is represented on
our governing body, and we are involved in their advisory group. We meet on
a regular basis to review both its agenda and our own. 2744. Mr Hannigan: Currently the accreditation
is from the National Council for Educational Awards (NCEA). The college itself
develops programmes and might identify a particular niche it wishes to investigate.
For example, we have recently had a new degree approved in fire technology,
which we identified as being a niche area not covered by anyone else. There
are opportunities in it, and we have had it approved by the NCEA. The proposal is
brought through the Institute's academic council and forwarded to the
NCEA. It will send down a validating body - a representative group of academics
and industry figures - to go through the course with staff and make a decision
on whether they should accept it, reject it, or send us back to do some more
work. That is the general approval process. 2745. We
are going through a major change, and I must say that there is much uncertainty
at the moment. The NCEA is about to be superseded by the Higher Education and
Training Awards Council - the new council coming in under the National Qualifications
Authority. The basis of the change is to focus on the learner. For example,
if you were to start a course with us, there should be no obstacle to your progressing
from Letterkenny Institute of Technology to University College, Dublin, or any
other college to complete the qualification you want. We are therefore looking
at a whole new process of how people can move from one course to another with
recognition of each other's qualifications, placing it all under the National
Qualifications Authority. 2746. There
is a degree of uncertainty. There is also the possibility that colleges can
validate their own certificates and diplomas, and that process is ongoing. We
are now entering a period of major change. There is a fair degree of uncertainty about how things
will work out.
However, it is likely that the Higher Education Training and Awards Council
will come into play in September or October 2001. There will also be a
Further Education
Training and Awards Council. Both councils will come under the National
Qualifications Authority. That will be a change in the current structures. 2747. The
NCEA system has served us well in the development of programmes, from certificate to diploma
through to degree. It has also been successful in maintaining quality
standards. 2748. Mr Byrne: Mr O'Herlihy said regional technical colleges
had found it necessary to move into the higher education field to improve their
image and establish credibility.
How do you cater for the weaker student who may want practical rather than academic
training? For someone who has just finished his Leaving Certificate,
what sort of entry
qualification is needed for the two-year certificate course? 2749. Mr O'Herlihy: When I talk about being a degree-awarding
institution, people vote with their feet. If you do not provide what students
want, they will go elsewhere. They want the opportunity to go as far as they
can. That does not mean that everyone is capable of attaining degree level,
but it means that you have an integrated system that ends on that level. 2750. We
deliberately set a very minimalist entry qualification at Leaving Certificate,
which would lie between O Levels and A Levels. You must pass your Leaving Certificate,
and you must pass English and Maths, but you need not be a very high performer.
We closely track the relationship between the results in our institutions and
the number of points that people bring on entry. While there is some relationship between
points on
entry and performance, there is a very close relationship between attendance,
participation and performance. 2751. We
have not been successful in addressing literacy and numeracy problems. As an
economy, we had roughly one million people under the age of five or over 65,
one million people in full-time education and one million at work. We could
barely afford full-time education, so we did not address lifelong-learning issues; we are
only beginning to address them now. The big challenge is that you must get outside
the institution. The key to adult learning is not about delivering a course;
it is that the person learns where, when and how they want to learn. We do not
give them a package; we give them a mechanism to step onto the process and use
it for themselves. 2752. Ms McWilliams: With regard to forward planning, you said
that numbers of school leavers are decreasing and that you may be entering into
competition with other colleges. Do you meet them regularly? Do you have some
future agreement for which colleges will run which courses? In other words,
the students will move; the courses will move, and you may develop specialisms
in regional colleges. That is an issue for us in Northern Ireland. 2753. Secondly,
you have had some experience of internal investment. Will you adapt your courses
to suit those investors if they can guarantee that they will invest in your
area? In other words, how flexible are you in adapting to their ever-changing
needs? 2754. Thirdly,
I was an external examiner for the University of Limerick, which was also attached
to a college. The college was developing many degree programmes, but it did
not have external examiners. Is that the case in Letterkenny Institute of Technology?
Have you gone down the higher-education route? Have you any way of evaluating
the equivalency between your institute's degree and that of the university? 2755. Mr Hannigan: The council of directors
consists of the chief
executives of the 13 institutes of technology. It meets monthly, and the heads
of development, registrars and secretaries/financial controllers also
meet regularly within that structure. There is therefore a great deal of co-operation
and meetings between colleges, and many policy responses come from the colleges
as a group. Our secretary general operates in Tralee. He is the former head
of a school of business studies seconded to the post, and he operates as a link for each of
the colleges. 2756. If there is a parliamentary
question, if any reports are required or necessary for a response, or if a proactive
response on Government
policy is required, the institutes of technology put forward their views
as a group rather than as individuals. It is important that we maintain
that. 2757. Over
the years, each college has offered similar programmes, but each has developed
its own niche. Letterkenny, for instance, has invested heavily in information
technology, and that runs across all the programmes that we operate. We have
invested in machinery and networks to try to give students the best possible
exposure to IT. 2758. Other colleges may have strengths
in engineering. Letterkenny also has engineering courses, but some people
may have more respect for another college's engineering programme. However,
I cannot see the colleges saying, "You take this, and I'll take that." I do
not believe that will happen. Colleges will retain what they have as best they
can. 2759. However,
if difficulties arise, there are a number of other ongoing co-operative ventures. For instance,
in the border/midlands/west region there is a regional higher education network that includes
the six institutes of technology and the National University of Ireland,
Galway. We are working
on projects that might pull the strengths of each college together to
deal with specific problems. 2760. Your
second question referred to the investment and adoption of our courses. There was very little inward
investment into Donegal for 20 years, but over the past two or three years there
have been two major investors in Letterkenny - Pacificare and Prumerica, which
are two multinationals
based in the United States. Letterkenny Institute of Technology has developed
an internship programme with Prumerica. It will take our computer degree students
for eight to 10 hours a week, training them in certain areas and allowing them
to complete their degree programme with us. In that way, Prumerica
can give feedback as to whether our students are meeting the demands of the
marketplace. 2761. That
works across a number of companies, particularly in the NCEA, where there are
industry participants and panels coming to say whether a programme fits or not. Letterkenny
Institute of Technology is adaptable in that respect. The institute will
also put short training programmes in place for the companies and suggest others
we believe they might need. 2762. There
are external examiners through the NCEA for every subject, meaning there is
a vast array of external examiners in all subject areas. Many of them come from
the institutes of technology or universities sector or are international external
examiners. There is very stringent quality assurance in that respect. 2763. Mr O'Herlihy: The point about changing
needs is very valid. When one of the American companies was thinking of investing,
it came, got our syllabi, met our students, examined their work, and made suggestions about one or two
modules that should be introduced onto the course as options. Those suggestions
were all acted on. We had a formal co-operative agreement with them when
they opened in Letterkenny. It is a very proactive type of model, and you must
keep doing that, for your syllabus is never correct; it may be correct today,
but next year it will have to be changed. 2764. One
company was in the final stages of deciding whether to invest in the region
and felt that our students should know a particular software package. We sent
one of our lecturers to New York for a week to learn to use and introduce it.
The firm was quite surprised
that we went to that trouble, and it was sufficiently impressed that it agreed
to pay for the venture. That is an example of the reality of the situation.
The whole objective is to turn out people with the skills industry requires. 2765. Mrs Nelis: Thank you for an excellent
presentation. I have a number of questions. Perhaps I might first ask you about
your budgetary needs and the constraints under which you must operate? How do
you attract additional funds for what you describe as a "very expansionist programme"?
Moreover, does the 50% figure for those returning to education relate to Ireland
as a whole or simply to your successful enterprise? 2766. Mr Hannigan: No, that is the trend right
across the board. Second years are returning to third year, and third years
are returning to fourth. Fifty percent is the sort of trend you are looking
at. 2767. Mrs Nelis: I want to ask about student
finance arrangements, for we have difficulties with them. You have abolished
tuition fees and introduced third-level allowances, which we should term maintenance
grants. How is that working? How do you arrange excess allowances for students from
less well-off backgrounds? Third-level allowances and the abolition of
tuition fees must help tremendously. Do you have a catchment area in the north-west,
for instance? Would students from Derry attend Letterkenny Institute of Technology? 2768. Letterkenny's
development is quite astonishing. I am old enough to remember it as a few streets.
It is a huge town and will soon be looking for city status. 2769. Mr Hannigan: I shall return to the issue
of financing. That
comes from the Department of Education and Science, and we have had an
investment of around £15 million over the last 6 years for buildings, mainly
capital development. We have built a new library, nine new computer labs, new
lecture theatres, a restaurant and a new business development centre, with some
money also coming from INTERREG. Moreover, we have two new buildings beginning
this summer - a new design block specifically for graphic design students and
a multipurpose sports centre. We do not currently have an example of the latter,
and that is a major weakness in our infrastructure. The students have part-funded an attached
building for student services from capitation. However, the majority
of our funding comes from the Department of Education and Science. 2770. The
abolition of fees has provided opportunities for many students, but we never
had a fee structure in the
first place. Students entering institutes of technology used to get a
grant based on their attendance; they now receive a maintenance grant based
on their means. As a result, things have changed slightly. Students had to attend
every class in order to get payment back at the start of the 1990s, so attendance
records are probably not as good as they were back then. 2771. That
may have changed how students think about things. However, what is interesting
about the reintroduction of fees in Northern Ireland is that two years ago, when they were
brought back, 38% of Southern students attending university in Northern
Ireland were from
County Donegal. Therefore a huge influx of people from County Donegal into Northern
universities is still taking place regardless. 2772. Mr O'Herlihy: We are very well financed
and resourced. Education
is very expensive, and the Government pays all costs for our full-time
courses. However, the development function must pay for itself - any training
or work that we do pays for itself. Mainstream education is well funded and
resourced on an ongoing basis, and that is one of the keys to the success of
the sector. If you compare our system with others in Europe, you will see the
Government got a huge return on its investment. 2773. Mrs Carson: We have found, from presentations from other
institutes and firms, that there is a problem with careers guidance. You offer many courses,
and many students go through your institute. Are you happy with the standard
of careers guidance you provide? How do you organise guidance in Letterkenny Institute of Technology? 2774. Mr Hannigan: We have had a formal careers
officer for the past three years. The post has been on a contract basis
since January 1998 and is paid for by student capitation. However, it will probably
become a full-time post. In those three years we have developed a strong
"milk round" - at the moment we have a very broad spectrum of companies
recruiting people through the college. Many students will start work
before they leave college because of the employment situation in the South. 2775. We do not really have a problem
guiding students at the institute, for they have already chosen a course
of action by that stage. However, they may have made a wrong decision before
they reach us. For example, students might find themselves on an engineering
or computing course completely different from what they had anticipated, and
they might therefore struggle with the work. 2776. Many people complain about
the careers guidance secondary schools offer, but resources are needed
to provide proper guidance. We work closely with careers guidance officers in
secondary schools to try to put people on the right path. Students might find
they have chosen
the wrong course when they arrive at Letterkenny Institute of Technology,
and we try to identify whether that is the case so we can advise them on the appropriate way. 2777. The
employment record of students over the past couple of years suggests that we
are pointing people in the right direction and that they are finding employment
fairly quickly. The change that occurred when the formal careers service came
to the college was vitally important - it made a huge difference. We employed
a careers-guidance specialist with a good track record. The work done in that
area has been very useful. 2778. Mrs Carson: There are many colleges around
the country. Are the same courses on offer in each, or are you able to design
your own? 2779. Mr Hannigan: We design our own courses
for our own colleges. For example, we offer a Bachelor of Science degree in
Fire Technology. Another college may specialise in a different area of engineering.
We might all begin with the same base, such as a National Certificate in Electronics
or Civil Engineering, for example. However, when we move on to diploma and degree
courses, colleges splinter off into different areas that cater for their own
region or a field where the college has a particular strength. 2780. Mr Beggs: It is refreshing to hear about
the links you have
established with businesses in your communities. I am sure we can learn something
from that. 2781. You
have fewer colleges in a bigger region, and you have a larger population than
we. What is the size range of your colleges, and does the size of the college
have an impact on the structure of the courses that they can provide? You spoke
about the importance of offering degree courses at colleges. How many degree
courses does your college offer, and what percentage of your students takes
study to degree level? Students are able to resit A-levels at our further education
colleges. Do you offer resits for Leaving Certificates and, if not, what is
your reasoning behind that? 2782. Mr Hannigan: We have a full-time student
population of 2,000, and we are one of the smaller colleges. The bigger colleges
are Galway, Cork and Waterford. On average they have between 5,000 and 6,000
full-time students. Other colleges in the middle range have no more than 3,000
students. 2783. Our
first degree course was a Bachelor of Business Studies, which we introduced
in 1996-97. We currently have nine programmes on offer. There are bachelor degrees
in Business Studies and Legal Studies with Taxation, a BSc in Computer Science
and an ab initio degree in Computer Networking. The BSc in Fire Technology is
coming in this year. There are two science degrees, one in Food Technology and
one in Analytical
Science. A full-time Nursing degree is coming on stream in 2002 - we
currently have a part-time one - and there is a Bachelor of Design in Digital
Media. 2784. In
percentage terms, a cap was to be put on the number of students that could study
at degree level in the institutes of technology. We are nowhere near that. It
has not been imposed; a percentage has not been set. On average, for example,
we have 30 students on our Bachelor of Business Studies and 26 to 30 on our computing
degree courses. On average you are bringing through between 20 and 30
students on each degree programme, depending on the numbers you start with. 2785. I
should have mentioned that science is having major problems in attracting students into programmes
in the South at the moment. We have problems in getting students to do science at
secondary level and also to continue at third level. Everyone is going through
a shakeout. 2786. Your
last question concerned repeats. We do not do anything regarding repeating legal certificates. Students
may choose to do that in a secondary school, but not with us. 2787. Mr Beggs: I have a supplementary question.
Links are developing
in Northern Ireland between further education colleges and the universities
to enable the first or second year of a course to be delivered locally.
Is there much of that happening in the South? 2788. Mr O'Herlihy: There is a very important choice to be made.
If students are fed into a university system, and receive their reward from it, your institution
is going to be seen in a particular way. If you give them an award at a lower
academic level, like a National Certificate after two years' study, which gives
them exemptions in the university system - of which very many avail - you have
the credibility of providing an award at a certain level. 2789. I
shall give you an example of what happens when you go up to the third year at diploma level. Last
year, two students who had studied with us for three years transferred
to Queen's University, where they finished. They were exempt for the first two
years of their mechanical engineering degree at Queen's and came first and second in their
cohorts. Very good exemptions are being negotiated between the IT sector
and the universities,
but we are awarding our own qualifications. I believe that to be a very
important difference. 2790. Mr Hannigan: The National Qualifications
Authority, which
I mentioned earlier, has been established to streamline the movement of students between
different courses. For example, if you had someone doing a two-year certificate
course in Letterkenny and going to one university, they might not get any credit
for it. At another university, the student might get two years' credit. They
are trying to cut out such discrepancies, so that there is a standard way of
transferring from National Certificate and National Diploma programmes. It is a matter
of regulating the system so that there is no picking and choosing what you want
from different programmes. 2791. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you. This
evidence session has been valuable to our inquiry into education and training
for industry. I was very much taken by Mr O'Herlihy's comments when he talked
about the centre of excellence, the agent for economic development and the gateway
of best practice in the region all being coupled with education. It is a quite
exciting model, and we shall be examining it very closely. Can you elaborate
on the weaknesses you stumbled across as you developed the programme? What pitfalls
could be avoided? 2792. Mr Hannigan: In third-level education
we are coming up against the problem of getting students to complete their programmes.
The number of students who are expected to have completed the programme after
two or three years is currently a very hot political issue in the South. Reports
have recently been completed in the university and IT sectors. They have
shown that in the
university sector, which covers seven universities, about 75% to 80%
complete their courses. In the institutes of technology the figure is around 60% to 63%. 2793. The
statistics do not show what happens to students who do not complete their courses.
One report tracked down those students and found that they are not dropping
out. They are switching to different courses or going into the workplace, making
conscious decisions for their own benefit. While the completion of courses is
a very serious matter, it is also a very intricate and wide-ranging issue. We
must consider if it is right to place students in programmes that may not be
suited to them. We must find out what happens to them afterwards. 2794. Institutes
of technology have been trying to establish credibility. It has been a battle
to do that in the Republic of Ireland. In the past five years people have started
to realise that colleges have contributed to economic development. People are paying more attention
to what they can
do. Colleges battled through a situation in the late 1980s and early
1990s where they were taking in more students without the resources to back
it up. Eventually resources started to come on stream to support that. It is
a major pitfall if colleges are forced into positions where they are trying
to adapt and be readily
available; to allow them to do that, the resources must come on stream
at the same time. 2795. We
have adequate resources now, but for a long time we were playing "catch up"
trying to develop programmes and keep things going. The main strength of the
system is that it has been adaptable to change. The Government have said that
such programmes are needed to deal with certain skill shortages, and we have
adapted accordingly, which is very positive. 2796. The Deputy Chairperson: Your contribution
has been most valuable and is very much appreciated. Thank you for your attendance
and for the illustrative hard copy, which is very helpful. 2797. Mr Hannigan: Thank you very much for the
hospitality. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 10 May 2001 Members present: Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr Hay Mr R Hutchinson Ms McWilliams Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Ms A McVicker, Director
) Ms J Poots, Chairperson
) Women's Training Ms B Gadd, Director
) Enterprise and Ms B Ruddy, Director
) Childcare Ms H Crickard, Board member
) 2798. The Deputy Chairperson: Good afternoon, you are
very welcome. As you know, you are here to give evidence as part of our inquiry
into education and training
for industry. Will you make a short presentation before members ask their
questions. We have around three-quarters of an hour. 2799. Ms Poots: My name is Joy Poots, and I
am the chairperson of the Women's Training, Enterprise and Childcare (WTEC). Previously,
I have worked in women's community development in Belfast, and with the
Equality Commission statutory duty unit. I am now co-ordinator of a Sure Start
project in south Belfast. Helen Crickard is also a member of the Women's TEC
board. Helen is a
qualified joiner, and a founder member of the Workshops Collective for
Arts and Crafts, which is based in Lawrence Street, Belfast. Briege Gadd, another
member of the board, is a former chief probation officer and a visiting
professor at the University of Ulster at Jordanstown. Anne McVicker, director
of the Women's TEC, is going to make a short presentation. We thank you for
the opportunity to talk about our work and the future. 2800. Ms McVicker: The Women's TEC is a unique
and innovative organisation
which promotes the inclusion of women in non-traditional
training skills and employment. We do this with the support of funding
from charitable trusts, European funding and in particular, Peace I. We provide
training in joinery, electronics, electrical engineering and information technology.
At present, we are
seeking to establish the first women's training centre in Northern Ireland, which would contain
training workshops, childcare provision and start-up enterprise and business
units for women. 2801. Throughout
the UK, and by 2006, women will constitute 80% of the growth in the labour force.
For the first time, the number of employed women is set to overtake that corresponding
to men, yet the employment of women is not equal across all industrial
sectors. Women represented 7% of employees in the engineering and technology
occupations in 1994, which represents just a 1% rise since 1979. In construction,
less than 10% of the workforce is female, and within the craft sector, less
than 2% is female. By contrast, more than half of the female workforce is concentrated
in the service industry. So why is this a problem? 2802. The
under-representation of women in science, engineering, construction and technology
(SECT) is not a new concern. Studies have examined the reasons for, and the
consequences of failing to tap in to the potential of women as a source of labour
and expertise. The motivations for concern range from economics to equal opportunities. 2803. One
argument for change is that employers are losing out in terms of project development and expertise,
if they do not tap in to the full labour force potential. The focus that women
can contribute to SECT is a major asset that is currently being ignored.
Employers are also experiencing skills shortages, and they are having to recruit
employees from all parts of the labour force rather than from one sector only. 2804. Equal
opportunities are also a problem for those who do not get equal access to employment,
training and pay. Lots of potential talent is being wasted. That poor representation
of women is mirrored in education and training. On a national scale, in 1997
and 1998, women represented 11% of part-time further education students of engineering
and technology, and 15% of full-time degree-level students. Fewer than one in
ten students in the construction discipline is female, yet one-third of female
school leavers go on to university each year. Although the numbers have increased
in the past ten years, particularly in the higher-education sector, women remain
in the minority. 2805. Although
they are welcome, equal opportunities policies cannot address alone the problem
of female under-representation in SECT. Many initiatives have been set up over
the years to change that trend. It is essential that those initiatives are supported,
developed and increased if women are to be given real choices of areas in which
to work and train. Those initiatives must also ensure that women have the opportunity
to take an equal role in influencing their environment, the resources that
we use and technological advances. 2806. In
England, Scotland and Wales there are examples of initiatives that have worked.
One of these is SECT, which is mainstream and falls within the remit of the
Department of Trade and Industry. There have been advances, and although they have been slow,
they have started to redress the balance by increasing the number of women who participate in non-traditional
skill training and employment. 2807. What
is the Women's TEC doing about this? The Construction Industry Training Board
(CITB) is currently working in partnership with the Women's TEC to attract women
into the construction industry, particularly where there are skills shortages, for example,
in the wet trades of bricklaying, plastering, painting, decorating and tiling.
Incidentally, only three per cent of the workforce in the construction industry
is female. We are currently training a group of women in the North West Institute
of Further and Higher Education who will progress to a construction
course in September 2001. We are also exploring partnerships with Brookfield
Business School in the Brookfield Mill complex and the Belfast Institute
of Further and Higher Education (BIFHE) to attract women into non-traditional
skills training and
to support them through the traditional range of obstacles that still
prevent women from
getting involved in non-traditional training. Those obstacles are attitudes
such as sexism. Lack of childcare is also an obstacle. We are currently piloting
a project called "Girl Power" which will operate in the summer months.
That is aimed at 15 to 16-year old girls, and offers them a range of non-traditional
skills and taster courses to encourage them to change their career choice when
they return to school in September. 2808. What
can the Committee do? It can ensure the mainstreaming of the gender dimension
of economic development through consultation and by creating a gender balance
in the membership of policy-making bodies. It can also ensure that full weight
is given to the European requirement that national action plans for employment
include special attention and special measures to promote gender equality in
employment. The Committee can ensure that women benefit equally - in fact proportionately
- from all training programmes and from the structural funds, and it
can ensure that official statistics give a true picture of women's and men's
different experiences of employment, non-employment and training. 2809. Mr Beggs: My question may be slightly
controversial. I understand that in the further education sector there is a clear majority
of females by comparison to males. Why then does additional money have
to be targeted at getting female students into the further-education sector? 2810. Ms Poots: As Ms McVicker said, the focus
is on what type of training course people are taking part in at the further
education colleges. The proportion of females in science, engineering and construction
is very low; and
that is probably outweighed by high levels in areas such as child care,
hairdressing, administration, et cetera. As a result of occupational
segregation from school level onward, there are segregated industries in which
the potential growth of the female labour force in emerging industries is untapped.
It will be a loss to the economic development of Northern Irish society if we
cannot tap that potential. 2811. The
main point, aside from the desire to create a more equal society, is that there
are large wage differentials between those in industrial jobs and the service
industries in which women work. In addition, the career opportunities in each
are extremely different. That is why those wage differentials between women
and men have not changed remarkably, even since the introduction of the Sex
Discrimination Act 1975. Northern Ireland has a growing economy, particularly
in regard to the technology industries. Given that there is a lack of women entering
into those types of employment, we fear that the wage differentials between
men and women could actually widen. That would be an extreme indictment on our
society. 2812. Mr Beggs: Do you acknowledge that the
most important time to address the issue is at school level? Do you accept that
career choices made at school would lead students into the further training
and employment that create those opportunities? You say that although there
are more females in the further and higher education sector, they are studying
the wrong courses. That point could be turned round - it could be said that
there should be special investment to encourage men to be nurses or hairdressers.
Would you also advocate that? 2813. Ms Poots: I am not saying that. There
should be a balance. Figures relating to the input in training in the past reveal
that it is costly to train people for the occupations that we are focusing on,
especially the higher levels of information technology. In the 20 or 30 years
after their establishment, Northern Ireland's Government training centres had
99% male occupancy. We are asking for some redress now, because that constituted
a very long period of unequal funding for men's training. 2814. The Women's TEC works in
areas of disadvantage. We target women who are unemployed, in low-paid
jobs or in a poverty trap.
In our experience, unemployed men in disadvantaged areas can often go
out, get a trade and make something of themselves; women have not had the same
opportunities and we would like to see a change in that. 2815. Mr Beggs: Briefly, can you explain the advantages of having
a separate organisation, rather than carrying out the training in a further
education college? 2816. Ms Poots: The Women's TEC ran a women-
only course in conjunction with a college, and that was funded by the European
NOW (New Opportunities for Women) programme. While it was reasonably successful, there were
many obstacles. We are not saying that training within colleges cannot work
and we are quite prepared to use the Women's TEC as a broker to get courses set up, work in partnership
with colleges, training centres and any other institution that is prepared
to focus on women's training in these fields. That is one of the ways in which
we envisage the Women's TEC progressing. We plan to develop partnerships with
existing resources, thereby maximising their use. 2817. The Deputy Chairperson: Ms McVicker said
that you want to
set up the first women's training centre. This would segregate females from
trainees in the centres that already exist however you will be proposing
that women have equal
opportunities to the male workforce. In the real world, men and women
have got to work together, so why can they not train together? 2818. Ms Poots: The bottom line is that this
has not worked. In
the past, the Training and Employment Agency had a number of initiatives to
try and mainstream women into existing provision. It has admitted to
us that the schemes were not as successful as they would have liked. 2819. We
must start somewhere, and one of my colleagues will perhaps talk about the range
of barriers. We understand that when someone is training they should not be
isolated, therefore we place them in industry. Some industries understand our needs and they
have been very receptive to us. Many are American or from other countries
where strong equal opportunities policies are in place. We put women into placements
where they are supported.
Women's TEC will, hopefully, continue to carry out some of the training
in its training centre, but we would like to develop partnerships across Northern
Ireland, because we can not simply remain Belfast-based. People will be trained
in a mixed environment, but they will be supported by an organisation
that appreciates their needs. They will not be left to make their own
way. 2820. Ms Gadd: Ultimately, we would like to
do ourselves out
of a job, having become no longer necessary. In the beginning, there
is a need for facilities for women only to develop a culture in which new role
models are created, and where women feel comfortable enough with their social
skills as well as with their trade, to be able to enter a male domain. For example,
in a factory where the majority of the staff is male, the women's toilet is
usually two and a half miles from where they are working. At present young women
and school-leavers do not regard the non-traditional occupations as their first,
second or even third choice. We feel that if we are successful, we will not
be needed as a women-only facility in the future. 2821. The Deputy Chairperson: It is a confidence- building
measure. 2822. Mrs Carson: You are starting at the top.
We should be starting at the bottom, in primary schools, and changing attitudes throughout
the educational system. 2823. Your
previous research revealed that women need part-time morning and evening courses.
Do you think that our present educational system is flexible enough to meet
the needs of women who want to return to work? 2824. Ms Poots: No. There are many initiatives such as New Deal, but there are lots
of obstacles to implementing those. Many of the trades are ring-fenced;
certain criteria must be fulfilled before a qualification can be obtained in
that trade. 2825. Some
of the organisations that control training in these fields have not offered
enough flexibility through part-time training courses that run over an extended
period. The family-friendly policy has not yet reached the training world. Years
ago, you could do part-time training, but under the Jobskills programme, training
could only be done on a full-time basis. Now we have the New Deal, and the Women's
TEC does not find itself able to use that programme as a source for its trainees. 2826. Mrs Carson: I know that Moy Park, for example, has scheduled
some of its work shifts to accommodate females who wish to return to employment.
Are firms in other urban areas not doing the same? Are you not happy with what
is being done within the industry? 2827. Ms McVicker: I have had meetings with
Shorts-Bombardier, and our courses include a visit to one of its sites at either
Dunmurry or Mallusk. Shorts-Bombardier has told us that they would like to employ
about 100 women at one time to ensure that the majority of them stay on, but
at present they are either unable or unwilling to adopt any family-friendly policies. 2828. They
recognise the difficulties for women travelling to their factories because of
where they are located, but they are not prepared to do anything about that.
They appreciate that women are the carers, and that some have to collect their
kids from school, but they are not prepared to change the working schedules. 2829. They
want to meet their objectives and come onboard by implementing equality impact
assessments, but they are not prepared to make any changes to overcome the obstacles
which are preventing women from getting back into employment. 2830. Mrs Nelis: What you are doing is great,
and I congratulate you. I can understand why you want to set up a training centre
for women. 2831. The
key need is choice. Can you imagine the benefits of going into a Training and
Employment office
as a school leaver and being given the opportunity to expand your range of skills
beyond those that are usually offered to women, such as hairdressing
and nursing. There should be a place where women can train to be an engineer
or a bricklayer, or any such skills, giving them the confidence needed to enter
those fields. The system that you and I know is still organised on the basis
of traditional structures. You are challenging that, but you are creating choice,
and that is important. 2832. There
is a skills shortage, and there will not be enough skilled males to fill the
shortages therefore women need to be trained. 2833. Self-sufficiency
is important to our dignity, and women who choose to live on their own need
to acquire a good deal of skills. The North West Institute has a joinery course
as part of which around 19 women made a coffee table. Such accomplishments give people great confidence.
We cannot all depend on our partners or husbands to carry out home repairs.
I am honoured and pleased that you are contributing to our inquiry. 2834. How
supportive is the social security system? This training is innovative and creative,
therefore what barriers could the Social Security Agency unlock? How do you overcome those
obstacles within that system? 2835. Ms Poots: I am sure that this Committee
has faced the same problem before. It is a big issue for women in the context
of New Deal. The roles of social security and training agencies have overlapped.
This takes place at a higher level. 2836. I
know that there are difficulties in changing the legislation to allow people
to train for longer hours. Our main clientele are women on income support, not
Jobseekers Allowance, so this creates another series of obstacles for us. The
rules for those on income support, and who wish to train, are different from
those which apply to people on Jobseekers Allowance. We tend to be restricted by those rules
no matter which way we go. 2837. If
we are to train Northern Ireland's unemployed population to meet the demands
of the economy, we will need to create flexibility within the social security
system to allow people to dip their feet in the water, and that is what we are
doing in regard to unemployed women. We are telling women to use their potential,
start a course, but without making a full commitment immediately. At the minute
there is not enough flexibility. People can either give up their benefits and
train or continue to receive state support. 2838. Mrs Nelis: There is a New Deal programme
for women. 2839. Ms Poots: I have been working for a long
time in community development in areas of high unemployment in Belfast, but
I do not know any women who have taken part in New Deal training. 2840. Ms McVicker: If women aged over 25 want
to do an NVQ Level
2 in electronic engineering, for example, they would only be eligible
to remain within the New
Deal programme for six months, even though it takes longer than that to complete
such a course. New Deal would not, therefore, be appropriate for that type training. 2841. Ms McWilliams: I have visited the project so I know something
about it. It is good to see that some of your trainees have already graduated from the programme,
and we would be interested to hear about what they are doing now. Would it be
possible to get a submission and case studies relating to some of the problems
concerning New Deal, so that we could include those in our inquiry? 2842. The Deputy Chairperson: That would be useful. 2843. Ms McWilliams: Where do you go from here? You have a track record,
you are up and running, some of you are - I assume - in a voluntary committee,
but some of you are working inside the Women's TEC project. What type of support
would you need to enable you to sustain what you have already achieved? Are
you in danger of not being able to continue? The Training and Employment Agency
(T&EA) would be one of your support mechanisms, and you have mentioned Europe
and the structural funds. This inquiry is looking to the future, and we would
like to know what proposals you have. Are you unique or are you running parallel
with any other organisation? I assume that you are not duplicating your activities.
Have you had any negative responses from the colleges, or are they supportive
of what you are doing? Where did your need come from and will the colleges support
you in the future. We are all concerned about the availability of European funding.
Ms Poots mentioned in her introduction the issue of mainstreaming. Could you
elaborate on this? 2844. Ms Poots: At present our main support is through National Lottery
funds, even though that body is not supposed to be interested in vocational
training. We received small amounts of money through the Peace programme, and
that is almost spent. So far, we have received £60,000 from the T&EA to
train 10 women in systems management, and that is our only source of funding.
None of that funding is mainstreamed. We are in a gap period, and we will have
run out of National Lottery funding by the end of the year. We need to be building
relationships and making plans for the future with industry and colleges, but
it is difficult to look to the future because funds are limited. 2845. We
would like to develop real working partnerships, because the Women's TEC cannot crack this nut
of operational segregation, opportunity and choice by itself, but that has not
been forthcoming. There is a serious problem and there are opportunities for
the issues to be addressed jointly. There are many programmes, including the
new Peace programme and the transitional funds, that are applicable to the work of the Women's
TEC. There is a lot of emphasis on information technology, economy, business
start-up and the
social economy. The Women's TEC is interested in becoming involved in
all those areas, but before we can think strategically there will need to be
a willingness and a commitment from the Department to work with us and come up with projects that
will match the needs of women. 2846. We
have found it very difficult to get statistical information from any Government Department, because
a good deal of it is not kept, and even if it is, we simply cannot reach
it. We need to know, for example, exactly what areas we should be focusing courses on - where
industry is emerging and where the gaps are. We need to work in partnership,
and that is what we have come to say to the Committee today. It is not simply a question
of money; it is a matter of working in collaboration. Our group has been together for
seven years and we could have advanced much further if there had been
collaboration. 2847. Ms McVicker: To our knowledge there is
no organisation like ours in Northern Ireland. The Craigavon-based organisation,
Women into Trades and Non Traditional Occupations (WITANTO), was funded by
the Department of Education, but it has folded because of a lack of funding.
It focused on schools and careers
departments, through which it tried to encourage young girls to make
career choices at an early age. There is a belief that once girls reach the
age of 14 it is too late to get them involved with non-traditional skills training. 2848. We
do not have our own training centre so we avail of the traditional training
centres such as those at Springvale Training Ltd, BIFHE and IMPACT training. 2849. The
obstacles still exist. Women are still not getting involved in training, despite
the introduction of equality legislation. That is because there is no childcare provision
in those colleges. Therefore, although we provide training in the centres we
have to run our own crèches. The purpose of actually having our own centre would be so that we could
provide training and childcare provision too. 2850. Nobody
else is doing what we do so we are not duplicating the work of anybody else.
The work that we
do, through the initiatives and projects that we undertake, does actually work
in Scotland and England. Schemes there are funded through local authorities
and European funding and so on, and they have made an impact. There are organisations
such as Women in Science, Engineering and Technology (SET), Let's Train Women
in Science and Technology (Let's Twist) and co-operative solutions, all of which we can
learn from. 2851. Ms Poots: There is a network organisation
in England called London Women and Manual Trades. We tried to become members
and get information from them, however, the situation in Northern Ireland is
very different and there needs to be an organisation in Northern Ireland that
reflects our specific needs. For example, local authorities fund a lot of those
projects. Local authorities here are not going to be able to provide funding
- at least not to the same level. There should be an organisation through which
people from any part of Northern Ireland - whether they come from Strabane
or Enniskillen - can seek advice. That is one of the things that we hope to
achieve with our organisation. 2852. Mr Byrne: I welcome you, and I understand
what you are saying.
In the past, very few females would drive a bus or a lorry. Thankfully, that
is beginning to change. I still have not seen a lady driving, for example,
a forklift truck. 2853. I
want to ask Ms Crickard what barriers, if any, she has experienced in her attempt
to enter a craft in the construction industry? How do we begin to attack the
cultural barrier? Finally, has any analysis or study been made of the barriers
of that kind in Northern Ireland? 2854. Ms Crickard: When I trained in BIFHE,
I was the only woman on the course. I was pregnant in the first year, and in
the second year I had a newborn baby. The college did accommodate me, but I
felt like I was a special case and that was why I was being allowed to do certain
things. You had to be very committed to the course. It was full of young fellas
and all the tutors were male. There was a lack of understanding of the needs
of women, much less a pregnant woman. 2855. No
employer would have taken you seriously unless you had the Advanced Craft Certificate
in Carpentry and Joinery. I went into self-employment, and I now take trainees
on placement from BIFHE; those students are all young men. No matter what happens
with the courses and the set-up in BIFHE, it will be a long time before there
are any female tutors or positive role models there for young women. That nurturing
has to happen now to create a balance. 2856. Ms Gadd: The way to change the culture
is to develop a group of very strong and thick-skinned women who are prepared
to go in and challenge the culture of male domination. To pick up on Mrs Carson's point, young
children, when they are at school, will only see women doing jobs other than
teaching when, for example, the school joiner is a woman. Only then will we
create the sense that this type of job is OK and something that they can aspire
to. 2857. We must build up a positive
workforce of women, who are doing those jobs, and who are prepared to
stand up as representatives. I was at a careers convention at an all-girl's
school. The organisers wanted to include a cross-section of careers, but in
order to get women from non-traditional trades, they had to fly them over from
England and Wales. They could not get any local trade representatives who had
the confidence to go and talk to the girls. Initially, specialist provision is difficult. 2858. Ms Poots: Another concern is the lack of female participation
at high levels in the new technologies, IT in particular. Many women are trained
in Computer Literacy and Information Technology (CLAIT) Stage I and Integrated
Business Technology (IBT) Stage 2, as well as other business administration related qualifications
at operator level. 2859. Ms Poots: It is at the higher level that
there is money, jobs and drive at present, and the number of women in these
jobs is actually falling. 2860. Mr Byrne: This is in software engineering? 2861. Ms Poots: Yes, and also in management, solutions development
and related areas. The number of women participating has fallen, as has the
number of university graduates in these subjects, yet the Northern Ireland economy
needs these people. It is a very worrying trend. It is not just about picking
up a hammer or trowel, it is also about sitting in front of a computer. 2862. Mr Dallat: I know this debate extends
beyond the argument on gender balance. What is your relationship with the Educational
Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA)? I ask because I have enormous respect for
that organisation, and I would like to know if you have a partnership with them.
How do you replicate the good work that you do in Belfast in the rest of the
country? Women in Northern Ireland - and rural women, in particular - do not
seem to have fared well over the last 30 years. That brings me to the targeting
social need (TSN) aspect, which is as important as gender balance. So many women
have lost out through 30 years of political instability. Is there a role for
your organisation in ensuring that the scare resources that we have are targeted
across Northern Ireland so that everyone can be released from the injustices
of the past that were not their own fault? 2863. Ms McVicker: We work closely with EGSA.
All our literature is sent to them, and we have had various meetings with them.
Women who go to EGSA for
career guidance, or to ask about training opportunities, can avail of
our leaflets and information. Women have enrolled in our courses through EGSA.
On the question of replication throughout the country, it is important to look again at role models.
The capacity of the Women's TEC is derived from an apprenticeship project,
which was funded through Peace I, via the Training for Women Network (TWN).
Over a two-year period, this project fast-tracked six women - two each in bench
joinery, electronic
engineering and systems management. 2864. Those six women are now our
trainers and are very positive role models. That has encouraged many women to dip a toe in the
water, as Ms Poots said, and find out what it is like to do joinery, electronics,
electrical work, et cetera. 2865. The
Women's TEC does not receive mainstream funding, therefore our work is confined to Greater Belfast,
although we have worked with the Newry and Mourne women's network. That involves
replicating the apprenticeship scheme with a view to extending the scope
of the Women's TEC to cover different parts of Northern Ireland where there
is a need for such provision. 2866. The
training will depend on the skills shortages and the particular needs of different areas. For instance,
in Newry there might be a need for farming skills or electronics. We hope that
through Peace II and the transitional programme we will be able to replicate
the apprenticeship scheme in the Newry and Mourne area. 2867. Ms Gadd: We still believe, however, that
this sort of project should receive mainstream funding. As members of the board,
we have to spend most of our time finding ways of getting funding to continue, rather
than looking at ways to further what we are doing. It is a big equality issue
for young girls. 2868. Mr Dallat: I am very conscious that the Rochdale weavers
in 1844 played a major part in projecting the role of women. That was a long
time ago, but I have no doubt that this needs to be done again. 2869. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very much for the
presentation. I know that members are anxious to ask further questions, but time
has run out. We have really appreciated the female perspective in our inquiry.
It has been very useful, and you have provided us with some thought-provoking
material. 2870. Some of the members have
mentioned the problem of our cultural mindset, and that needs to be overcome.
There also needs
to be more flexibility and family-friendly policies. If we were able to crack
those three elements, as well as putting a bit of funding in place, you
would be well on
your way. We know that as representatives of the female population, you
have a very valid contribution to make to the economy and to industry, and we
wish you well with your work. Thank you very much. 2871. Ms Poots: Thank you very much. We will
send you the information
relating to the New Deal programme. Should anybody think of any other questions
they want to ask, they may write to us, and we will be happy to write
back. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 17 May 2001 Members present: Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Ms McWilliams Witnesses: Cllr I Hanna
) Cllr B Lewis
) Newry & Mourne District Council Cllr J McCart
) Cllr A Williamson
) Mr J McGilly
) Enterprise Development Officer 2872. The Deputy Chairperson: I thank the Chairman
and members of Newry & Mourne District Council for facilitating this hearing
today and for the warm welcome and hospitality. We look forward to hearing the
Newry & Mourne perspective. Indeed, Newry & Mourne Council has a very
valuable contribution to make to the overall subject matter of our investigation.
I understand that the presentation is going to be made by Mr McGilly, and
then there will be a period for questions. 2873. Mr McGilly: I have circulated two papers
to each of the Members here today. The first is a copy of some of the points
that I am going to touch on, and the other goes into some more detail on the
issues that I raise. No doubt they will be teased out in the discussion as we
go along. I will just give a brief overview of the Newry & Mourne area and
then address what we feel are some of the main issues in relation to education
and industry. 2874. Firstly
the Newry and Mourne area has a population of 86,000. The region is home to
12 secondary schools, and four of the top grammar schools in the north of Ireland
are housed within this area. It also has one of the most progressive colleges
of further and higher education in Northern Ireland - Newry & Kilkeel Institute
of Further and Higher Education, which is an associate member of the University
of Ulster. 2875. The
college has somewhere in the region of 13,000 full-time and part-time students,
and a teaching staff of about 1,400. It offers a range of courses from vocational
and non-vocational through to degree level courses via its association with
the University of Ulster. Probably from today's perspective one of the most
interesting areas is foundation degrees. This focuses on innovation-based subjects
such as networking and ICT technology, the role that industry plays in the design
of those courses and accreditation via the University of Ulster. 2876. The
area is also home to a number of training organisations, such as Newry &
Mourne Enterprise Agency, Southern Group Enterprises, Southern ITeC and Clanrye
Employment & Training Services. They offer a range of vocational training
to individuals and organisations. Those organisations are becoming increasingly
client-driven in their delivery of training. 2877. In
that area, we have established the Newry & Mourne Business Education Partnership
which is a partnership between the local council, the business sector and the
education sector, right through from secondary schools to further and higher
education. Through that partnership we have begun to tackle a number of the
issues that will be highlighted later on, but it has also flagged up some issues
that need further attention in the months and years ahead. 2878. The
strong small business culture is a prominent feature of the area. Of the 2,100
businesses in the region, some 95% are classified as small businesses or micro-enterprises.
Another feature of the region is a strong entrepreneurial culture. Under the
new business start programme, of which Newry & Mourne District Council is
a key funder, the region can boast one of the highest rates of business start
in the North of Ireland. 2879. I
will move on to some of the core issues in education, training and industry.
One feature of our economy is still the reliance on the textile and manufacturing
industry, which can be classified as the traditional industries. Industry will
move further towards the modern sector and areas such as information communication
technology (ICT) and telecommunications. Industry and education must work hard
to bridge the skills gaps that that generates. 2880. Another
area of great importance is the linkage between Government, education, industry
and training. 'Strategy 2010' has been a key document in mapping out the future
of Northern Ireland over the next 10 years, and it sets a vision. Our challenge
is to liaise with Government, the education sector and industry to form a partnership
that helps to realise that vision. 2881. One
problem that we encounter, which is probably a feature of all border regions,
is the lure of the "Celtic tiger" and the movement of labour to the Republic
of Ireland, given the current success of that economy. That encourages young
people to leave the area relatively unskilled, although they can demand high
wages in that economy. The fear for the future is that when those people return,
they may not have the skills necessary to re-enter the labour market in the
North. It also creates a labour shortage in the region. 2882. The
need for further linkages between colleges of further and higher education and
universities is another major issue. I said that the Newry & Kilkeel Institute
of Further and Higher Education has associate membership of the University of
Ulster. A satellite campus of a university in this region would be extremely
beneficial on a number of fronts. It would enable the region to enjoy a wider
range of degree level courses and encourage young people to stay in the area.
Presently, the majority of students move out of the area to study in Belfast,
Dublin or further afield, many of whom never return. However, the establishment
of such a campus in this region would encourage people to stay at home
to study and possibly remain in the area for the duration of their working lives. 2883. The gap between secondary
and higher education needs to be addressed. The current goal remains
to go to a grammar
school and then to university. The secondary schools promote a similar
approach. The design of the curriculum, especially at Key Stages 3 and 4, should
be more reflective of the needs of industry and encourage industry and self-employment
as a viable career option for everyone. There is a need for stronger links between
secondary level education and further education to promote vocational
training. There has been a move towards vocational A levels, but that needs
to be developed and taken further. 2884. It has also been suggested
via the business education partnership that there is a need for a co-ordinated
approach to careers advice. In many instances careers advice is a responsibility
that is added to a teacher's other duties, and it is not given the priority
that it requires in shaping young people's future. Schools at a regional level
should co-ordinate with each other and have specialised careers advisers who
regularly liaise with industry so that they are fully appraised of the changing
needs of industry. The needs of industry are changing rapidly. 2885. The council piloted a scheme
of teacher placements into industry via the business education partnership.
That was a successful
initiative, but there were problems with financial resources. The council
feels that a stronger support to facilitate a wider programme of teacher placements
in industry would be beneficial. 2886. Over
the past number of years the education system has been more focused on industrial
placements for students. The council has weekly telephone calls from students seeking work
placements. There are quite a number of small local industries, and it is difficult
for small businesses to offer student placements. The council feels that
it would be beneficial to have a centralised system of one agency for co-ordinating
student placements. That would be more structured and beneficial to students,
and it would offer them worthwhile placements in careers that they may wish
to pursue. 2887. Cllr McCart: I do not need to be converted
to the advantages of education and training for industry. I was fortunate to
work for almost 40 years for what was then the Reed International Company, which
was to the forefront of industrial training. I received formal training when
I was a machine man. 2888. I
have intermittently been on the board of governors of the college of further
and higher education since 1967, and one year I was the chairman. I was attempting
an O level in economics, and I was lecturing at a part-time course on management
studies. 2889. I
am convinced that the secret for successful industrial development in our area
is the development of a viable and suitable college of further and higher education.
We are proud of our college of education, and I am privileged to serve on its board. However,
more emphasis needs to be placed on links with industry. 2890. Cllr Hanna: I am chairman of the board
of governors of Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education.
Mr McGilly mentioned in his presentation that there are small businesses with
four or five employees, including the owner. Those owners find that it would
be uneconomic to release their young employees to come to the college for training.
Is there any possibility that money could be made available to compensate the
employers for the time the young person would spend in training? We have a problem
getting small firms to give their young employees one or two days a week off
work to come for training. 2891. The Deputy Chairperson: Are you suggesting
that there should be some form of subsidy or training grant? 2892. Cllr Hanna: Yes, because is it not possible
for a small firm to bear that cost on its own. Young people are missing out
on proper qualifications through no fault of their own, and when they move on
to another job they have no evidence to show that they have served their time. 2893. Cllr Lewis: We need a major review of
education in general. As Mr McGilly has said, some of the highest achieving
grammar schools are in this area. There is a culture within education where
people are moving towards academic education, and there is not enough emphasis
put on the employment opportunities in business. Ninety-five per cent of the
industries and businesses in this area are small. People need to be made aware
that those things are possible, that they can set up their own business and
be educated towards doing that. 2894. We
need to have an overall review of vocational and academic education. We are
fortunate to have Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education
providing that, but I find that some people end up in industry or business by
accident - it was not a career choice. 2895. People
are moving out of this area into the "Celtic Tiger" economy to work, and maybe in a few years
time it will be the opposite. When we are co-ordinating education, industry, business
and training, it is important that we find out what needs to be done
on a regional basis, and that region cannot stop at a border. The Newry and
Mourne area is on the east coast corridor, and any strategy that is developed
has to take in the whole region. Students are coming from Dundalk and Louth
to Newry & Kilkeel Institute for Further and Higher Education. A lot of
the job and training placements from the Institute - and subsequently the jobs
that are acquired through the placements -are in the South, so we need co-ordination. 2896. Cllr McCart: I was interested in the terms
of reference for the inquiry, and particularly in two headings. One concerns
the institutes of technology, formally the regional technical colleges (RTC),
in the Republic. Living here on the border and having joint committees with
bodies in Lough and Monaghan, we see the successes of the former RTC's. I am confident
that the big influx of ICT and pharmaceutical industries into the Republic
was largely due to the fact that hundreds of millions of pounds were ploughed
into the RTCs. I am told that each college, sensibly, majored in a certain subject. Dundalk
did engineering, Letterkenny did tourism, and so on. 2897. You
mentioned the German system, which I have been interested in for some time but
have never had the opportunity to examine it - although I am not looking for
a trip. I know that people from here have gone there and looked at it, and there
seems to be a definite and profitable relationship between German industry and
the equivalent of our high schools or community schools. Have you looked in
depth at the German system, or is it your intention to do so? 2898. The Deputy Chairperson: I will deal with
that question, but first I will tell you that last week we had an interesting
and informative session with the director of Letterkenny Institute of Technology, who highlighted
the system that operates in the South of Ireland. We will be looking at that
model. You have already pointed out that one of the advantages of their system
is the substantial funding that was made available. That is something that we
must take note of. 2899. With
regards to the Germanic model, we hope to visit Denmark, because we understand
that there is a system there that may be of interest. Is that similar to the
German system? 2900. The Committee Clerk: It has been recommended
because of its international recognition for dealing with under- or low-achieving
pupils at school. 2901. The Deputy Chairperson: We have no plans
to visit Germany. 2902. Cllr McCart: I was interested to hear
the Deputy Chairperson say that the emphasis must be placed on funding. I am
confidant that our colleges of further and higher education have been underfunded
for a considerable length of time. The chairman of the college board will bear
me out that one of the things that concerns those of us on the board of governors
is the capping of the numbers of people who can enrol on courses, despite the
fact that there is demand. Ironically, those people can apply to places like
Crew or Huddersfield, and if they go there it costs the Exchequer a lot more
than it would cost to take the cap off the numbers in colleges in places like
Newry. 2903. The Deputy Chairperson: We will move on
to questions. 2904. Mr Dallat: While we were waiting to become
quorate, Cllr McCart
gave us some interesting background on this building. It was a technical
school, and in those days it was a direct responsibility of the urban council.
Given the interest of Newry & Mourne District Council in this subject, has
the clock turned full circle? Is there a need for elected councils to become
more directly involved in the provision of further and higher education, given
that an appalling number of problems have arisen in the intervening years? More
than 20% of people leave school with serious problems in literacy and numeracy. 2905. Cllr McCart: It is especially so with
boys. 2906. Mr Dallat: Given that elected representatives
might be able to project lifelong learning projects better than some academics,
who perhaps do not even live in the neighbourhood, I would like to hear your
reaction. 2907. Cllr McCart: My reaction is a qualified
"Yes". Councils should have direct representation on the boards of colleges
like ours, which they do not have at present. Both Cllr Hanna and myself are
nominees of the education and library board; we are not directly appointed from
the council. At the same time, I would not like the board of governors of our
college, or any other, to have a majority of councillors. One needs a leavening
of councillors - not a majority. 2908. Mr Dallat: You must have similar problems
in your neighbourhood to those in other parts of Northern Ireland. Educationally, the
bottom 20% of the population are now very important to industry given
that we have a "Celtic tiger" economy across the border and neighbouring towns
with almost full employment. 2909. Cllr McCart: I am on the board of an 850-pupil
high school, and I am concerned about the number of pupils, especially boys,
who leave without any qualifications. The industries that normally would have
employed such young people years ago cannot do so now. Industry needs qualified
people. 2910. Mr Byrne: What are your views about the
type of practical skills courses currently available through training centres
and colleges of further education, be they in construction, engineering or ICT? Have you any
views about the short-term aspect of skills training? 2911. Secondly,
how important do you think skills training is to the economic development of
Newry and the wider area? 2912. Cllr Hanna: It is vital to the economic
regeneration of the area, because the first thing outside bodies do when deciding
whether it would be feasible to start a business in Newry is to carry out a
skills audit. Recently, we have found that there are not nearly enough people
with recognised skills, and firms are moving elsewhere. 2913. We suffer greatly from the
"Celtic tiger" economy. Young people cannot get out of school quick enough
because there are manual jobs across the border where they can earn unbelievable
money. In the short term that is very good, but if they burn themselves out -
as most people do, especially if laying blocks in the building industry - they
come back without any qualifications, and they are not employable. I do not
know how to address the problem. We have tried our best. I do not know how we
can get them to realise that they will not always be young and strong and that
they need to re-educate
themselves or have some qualifications so that they can take up alternative
employment. 2914. Lifelong
learning is beginning to kick in. It was a good while before people realised
they needed it. They are coming back, but they are far too slow in coming back. 2915. Cllr Lewis: It comes back to the education
culture, because
the 20% we are talking about are actually classed as failures. With the
11-plus system, children are being classed as failures. That is really where
the problem starts. At present, unless children are going into academic education
they are classed as failures, and they will accidentally fall into other jobs
or industries. That has to be changed. It will be a long process and not an
easy one. 2916. Cllr
Hanna made a point about lifelong learning. It is lifelong in the sense that
there is going to be continual retraining. Most of us who have a job constantly
need retrained. I am in a job in which I am off doing courses over and over
again every year. Retraining is going on all the time. Lifelong also means that
education is for life, and it is for life in a world that at the moment does
not want 80% of people coming out with three or more A levels. There are no
jobs for those people; they are not the types of jobs that are going to be needed
in the future. 2917. Mr Byrne: I still want to hear your views
about the types of training schemes that are currently available, and which
have been for the last five years. Are they too long-term or short-term? Do
they have enough value-added quality? 2918. Cllr McCart: We have a first-class, purpose-built
training centre here in Newry, which has now been taken over by the college
of further education in Newry. However, I believe that training suffered because
of the uncertainty that went on for four or five years as to what was going
to happen to the then government training centres. 2919. Looking
at it objectively, public money was wasted due to the duplication of courses
and courses being underutilised in Greenbank training centre and in the further
education college. Hopefully, waste will end with more professional management
of those centres. 2920. There
was not an awful lot wrong with the courses; they were probably the right length.
However, if I were to make a criticism, it would be that they did not consult
adequately with local industry as to what was required. I think that somebody
just sat down and said "We will do this, this and this". 2921. Ms McWilliams: Thank you for your succinct
submission. You have made some very interesting proposals, which I want to tease
out a little bit more. I am very taken by the idea of central co-ordination
and of an agency for placements. Have you given thought to that? Do you have
a paper on it? What are the problems, and what are your proposals? Are you thinking
of it as regional or as central in relation to this particular area? 2922. Mr McGilly: This issue has been flagged
up through our business education partnership, and at the moment it is very
much a concept. The main problem that we have in this region is the number of
schools looking for
placements. We have many small businesses that have difficulty finding
placements. They turn people away, not because they do not see their potential
but because they just do not have the capacity to take young people into their
businesses. As a result, young people who are looking at a certain career option
can end up having to go on a career placement elsewhere because they have to
go on their placement in a certain week from their school or college. 2923. If
placements could be co-ordinated by a central agency - maybe our business education
partnership, or one of the training organisations - industries could declare
the sort of placements that they have, their duration and when it suits them
best. It does not suit some industries to take people at certain times of the
year. If there were a central database that schools could access, it would save
a lot of duplication and effort, both by teachers and industry. They could go
at a time when it suits them to find placements and be able to get worthwhile
placements. It could also be vetted. The central organisation could do some
research into the quality of placements, as opposed to just bringing a student
in who maybe does not get doing what he or she is supposed to be doing. 2924. In
terms of regionalisation, we would be open to looking at spreading the net wider.
The wider you spread the net, the more it may become a very onerous task, and
it may not be possible to do it on a wider region basis. Perhaps it could be
piloted in a district council area like Newry and Mourne, or it could be done
over a number of areas. It may be too difficult, but the wider you can spread
the net, the wider the range of industry that students will be able to experience.
However, there is the issue of travelling, and so on, so there are constraints
to it. One example is in the Dundalk region, where there is quite a strong manufacturing
base for people who want to get into that field. It is a lot stronger than it
is here in Newry and Mourne. 2925. Ms McWilliams: We are taking evidence
from business education partnerships, and that is clearly one thing that we
may take up with them. I am taken by the fact that you are attempting to work
not just on a regional basis but with the impact of the "Celtic tiger". 2926. To
follow on from what you were asking, you have had some experience with teachers
into industry, and as a result you can offer a lot of advice on that because
you were piloted. I am very concerned to hear you say that resources are running
out, and that is something that we will have to mark up. I would like to hear
from you on the teacher into industry experience. Would you say that it is a
positive experience and that it should be supported? 2927. We have already taken evidence
from industrialists, and people who operate in the field of business,
highlighting their concerns about the lack of advice given to young people about
their careers. Hospitality and other industries have made that point. In the
light of a television programme this week about what the people in the restaurants
think of the people in the training colleges, and vice versa, it seems that
it would be a very useful thing for exchanges to take place between them. What
did you mean when you said you had some concerns? 2928. I
will finish with the issue that you raised, Cllr Hanna, about small employers
facing the crisis of releasing young people. Would you support the idea of a
levy? It may not work for small employers because they would argue that they
have not sufficient funds, but there has been a proposal about an employer's
levy for training purposes. That may be in relation to the very large employers.
It would be a central fund, which would be used for training in relation to
all of these issues. What are your views on that? 2929. Mr McGilly: The initiative was piloted
through the Business Education Partnership, and the council were part-funders
of that scheme. We had set aside a pot of money to allow a number of teachers
to go on placement. That money was largely used to pay for cover while they
were out on placement. From our perspective, at a local level, there is only
a certain amount we can do. 2930. Ms McWilliams: Who actually set aside
the money? 2931. Mr McGilly: The Business Education Partnership had set
it aside from the funding it received from different partners to run this programme.
The demand from teachers to go into placement far exceeded the resources we
had to enable it to happen. I was hinting at looking at some way of mainstreaming
this where maybe the education board or central Government would allocate a
budget for this sort of activity throughout the larger region, and not just
throughout each region. 2932. Cllr Williamson: I wish to make a comment
as someone who was through this system, which Cllr Lewis referred to. I was
educated at one of those colleges, and I am very proud of it, but I was not
going to be a clergyman, doctor or a lawyer. I did very well, and I later became
a very small businessman, though I am partly retired now. 2933. Levies
kill small businesses. VAT, and such like, are crippling small businesses. Be
very careful because in this area, in particular, there is a great entrepreneurial
base. For God's sake, do not kill it. In the great United States, most businesses
are small businesses. Small businesses want to play their part, so try not to
cripple them with levies. 2934. The Deputy Chairperson: That is a good
point. 2935. Mrs Carson: Your presentation was very
interesting and like a rerun of other presentations we have had from councils
and from industry. We are hearing the same message being hammered home each
time - that there is a problem with the link between the education system and
training. The line is not drawn at 11-plus; it goes back to the family. 2936. Parents
have expectations for their children, and it is not always industry or manual
work that is the problem. Parents may want to see their children going into
"something nice" - to work in jobs where they do not get their hands dirty.
There is a large education gap with both parents and children. A lot of the
failure ethos comes from the failure of parents to be sensible; they can promote
the sense of failure. 2937. There
is a difference between your presentation and the general issues that we were
given on this sheet. You have a very good business and school partnership, but
you have said that the secondary and grammar school sector does not provide
training for industry. Part of the problem is that there is not a good linkage
with careers teachers. They should provide a strong link between industry and
schools. What is happening in this area? 2938. We
have found in other places that if there are strong links with schools and industries
- such as where there are school visits and strong individual links - there
is a better liaison between the two areas. What can you do in Newry through
enterprise development, or through the council itself, with the money available
to promote links with industry? Could the councils do more? 2939. Mr McGilly: As a local authority involved
in economic development, it is incumbent upon us to look at links between industry
and schools. The business education partnership was the pilot initiative here.
It was the first attempt to try to bring it all together. We have started to
tackle a lot of the issues through that partnership, but we have flagged up
a lot more that needs to be done. That is where the challenge lies ahead, and
the council recognises that need. In the future, as we develop our next round
of economic action plans, we will see how we use our resources to work in partnership
with other bodies to strengthen the links between industry and education. 2940. We
have held some very successful events such as a cross-border one-stop careers fair where all businesses
came to this region and showcased themselves. All the schools from the area,
from fourth form upwards, came to the fair to speak with industrialists from
the area. Such initiatives have started to highlight the raft of careers that
are available to young people in the area and the sort of roles that young people
can play in industry. They have also highlighted that one can succeed via a
non-academic route. Those initiatives need to continue, and the council will
support them in the future. We see the benefit, but we know that we are only
scratching the surface. 2941. Over
the past two or three years with the partnership, we have started to bond together
the vital links between secondary schools, colleges of further and higher education
and businesses. The commitment and dynamic is there to move that forward and
tackle these issues. We need support at a regional level to showcase how young
people can move into industry, have successful careers and also start their
own businesses. 2942. We
have one of the best small businesses in our area. I know a young man who was
first in his year in the exams for the Institute of Chartered Accountants in
Ireland, and when he qualified
set up his own technology business, which is unrelated to accountancy.
That shows how somebody
who was geared for a profession, and who probably would have been exceptional
in that profession, moved into another sector. Those are the sorts of
cases that we need to showcase and highlight to young people. 2943. Mrs Carson: Do teachers pick what they
want to do, or where they want to go? Do they pick the places that are advantageous
for those firms that want to train young people when they leave school? How
do you work out whether the placements are advantageous for local industries? 2944. Mr McGilly: As the initiative was a pilot,
it has been in demand. We have had to match as best as we could with those industries
that were prepared to take teachers on placement. Our approach could be more
selective as the initiative grows and develops and as we get more industries
on board. The initiative currently involves those industries that were prepared
to take placements and those teachers who were prepared to go. The main aim
was to show teachers and industry how the other side lives. Teachers tend to
work by a certain style and, likewise, it is important that industry learns
more about the education system. That was the purpose of the initiative. Our
approach will become more focused as we proceed. 2945. Mr Beggs: When you talk about industry,
are you referring to manufacturing and service, or jobs generally? There is
also a dilemma about local access to courses and the number of courses that
can be provided. Lauded institutes of technology are much more geographically
spread in the Republic of Ireland and are larger than our colleges in Northern
Ireland. 2946. I
am interested in your view of the current situation of further education in
the Newry and Kilkeel area. Is the satellite system working OK, with a larger
overall college that provides higher-level courses? What courses are provided
at the satellites? There is the access to those colleges and a number of courses
that are provided. There are two diverging views on the matter. 2947. Finally, who provided the
money for educational partnerships? I am interested to know what all
the sources of funding were. Was the experience of teachers deemed to be appropriate
for Baker Days? Was any recognition or incentive given to teachers to become
involved? What benefits did teachers and their students determine had arisen
from the scheme? 2948. Cllr McCart: We are ahead of the posse
on lifelong learning in the community. We have just had a special bus built
that has 14 computers, which will go out to community centres. We are operating
in maybe up to 20 outlets. A lot of them are outside the Newry and Mourne area,
and some of those are across the border. We have pioneered that initiative.
Our record in that area would stand up. 2949. I
agree with the idea of having one big super college in Newry. While a town such as Newry needs a
super college, you must not forget to also provide facilities in places
such as Hilltown and Attical. We have an excellent working arrangement with
many community associations for which we provide courses as required. 2950. Cllr Hanna: We do not only deliver in
our own premises. If Aircraft Furnishings - now known as BE Aerospace Seating
Products Group (UK) Ltd - in Kilkeel needed training for its workforce, we would
provide that on site. We would provide that service for anybody who demands
it. We are very flexible; if they tell us what they want, we will meet their
needs. 2951. Cllr McCart: That was for a workforce
of 300. 2952. Mr Beggs: Are you satisfied with the size
of the college? Who funds the business educational partnerships, and what benefits
have resulted from it? 2953. Cllr McCart: I hope that the incoming
councils are given more powers to spend on economic development. How much are
we currently allowed to spend? 2954. Mr McGilly: Five pence. 2955. Cllr McCart: That is not adequate. However,
I appreciate that nothing can be done in the current year because the rate has
been struck. I suggest that we should improve that figure, because that money
is well spent by the councils. 2956. Mr McGilly: The funding for the business education partnership comes via the
council and the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership initiative.
Also local funding was secured through the district partnership to support the
initiative. 2957. The
teacher placements which you referred to were where careers teachers went into
industry to learn more about some of the career options that they were advising
young people on - for example, finding out what exactly a graphic designer does.
They were getting hands-on experience to make them more able to relate closely
to how industry works and the pressures and constraints that people in industry
face. Teachers would admit that they are not aware of what is going on in industry
because they have worked in the confines of schools for so many years. Senior
managers admit that they do not know what goes on in education. We need to bridge
that gap. 2958. Cllr Hanna: In September, we moved into
the training centre, which at that time was not very well used. We are now faced
with the problem of building an extension. That shows that there is a demand
if there is proper marketing and relevant courses available. The only two areas
that we are having a problem recruiting for are steel construction and motor
mechanics. 2959. The Deputy Chairperson: I must bring this
session to a close. Thank you for your interesting contribution and written
submission and also for the use of the facilities and for your hospitality. Please
convey our thanks to Newry & Kilkeel Institute of Further and Higher Education
for its written submission. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 17 May 2001 Members present: Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Ms McWilliams Witnesses: Mr S Bannon
) Forfás Mr L O'Raghallaigh
) 2960. The Deputy Chairperson: Good afternoon.
I welcome you here today. We are looking forward to hearing what we can learn
from the Forfás experience. 2961. Mr Bannon: It is a privilege to address
the Committee. I manage the Trade, Skills and EU Policy Department of Forfás.
Lorcan O'Raghallaigh works with me, and his work is concentrated on the skills
awareness campaign. Unfortunately, our chairman, Dr Danny O'Hare, had to go
on a World Bank mission to Sri Lanka at short notice. He asked us to convey
his apologies. 2962. Forfás
is the National Policy and Advisory Board for Enterprise, Trade, Science, Technology
and Innovation. It seeks to co-ordinate the policies in a variety of economic
development areas throughout the state. Its basic functions are to advise the
Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment on matters relating to the development
of industry in the state, to advise and co-ordinate bodies such as the Investment
and Development Agency
(IDA Ireland), Enterprise Ireland, Foras Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS) and Shannon Development
and to co-ordinate their work. 2963. Forfás
encourages the development of industry, technology and trade in the state and
the establishment and development in the state of industrial undertakings from
outside the state. It has those mandates. It seeks to co-ordinate rather than
to manage the functions of the economic development agencies which reside in
the state. The management of the state development organisations still rests
with the parent Department. As part of its interpretation of that role, Forfás also manages three
separate national committees - the National Competitiveness Council, the Irish Council for Science,
Technology and Innovation and the Expert Group on Future Skills Needs. I will
concentrate on the latter today. 2964. The
Expert Group on Future Skills Needs is part of a trinity of forums which was
established in 1997 under the Business and Education Partnership. That trinity
consisted of the Skills Implementation Group, the Business, Education and Training Forum and the Expert
Group on Future Skills
Needs. The objectives were complementary, in that the Expert Group on Future
Skills Needs was appointed by the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Employment
and the Minister of Education and Science. 2965. Its
remit was to research and advise on issues associated with labour market fluctuations
and labour market needs in the Irish economy, and also to advise the Ministers on what steps
to take to address those needs. It consists of members from each of the three
social partners. There are representatives from the business organisations
- the Irish Business Employers Confederation (IBEC), the small firms associations
and other such organisations - along with those from the education establishments,
the Department of Education, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and
Employment, and the trade unions. 2966. It
is, in fact, a parallel structure to the social partnership that exists in the
state. The Skills Implementation Group is complementary to that. It is a group
of high-level public servants, consisting of the secretaries general of the
Department of Education and Science, the Department of Enterprise Trade and
Employment, and the Department of Finance, along with the heads of Forfás and
the Higher Education Authority. It meets to consider the recommendations that
emanate from the expert skills group, and, through its influence, it ensures
that the Government move to implement the recommendations and actions identified
in the reports. 2967. The
Business, Education and Training Forum has evolved into a meeting, at a sub-level,
of educators and the business community to review the recommendations emanating
from reports produced by the expert skills group. It reviews how sensible and applicable
those recommendations are, and it estimates the resources necessary to
meet the skill needs that are identified. 2968. The
three groups work in a clover pattern to help and advise the state on what actions
it should take to address present and future needs in the areas of education, skills development,
immigration, labour market changes and in-company training. 2969. The
skills awareness campaign is an important adjunct of the expert skills group.
The group started in 1997, and it began to view a number of the major economic
sectors in the Irish economy to take a five to ten-year perspective on the supply
and demand of the various skills needed in those sectors. 2970. It
began to address, sector by sector, the actions needed over a five to seven-year
period. It looked at how the education system, in-company training, the second-level
education system, and all the instruments of education and skills training in
the state could be focused on addressing those skills needs. For example, the
first skills report, which was produced in early 1998, identified that there
was a shortfall of some 5,400 qualified professionals in the IT industry.
It recommended that the Government should invest some IR£75 million in
educational resources to meet that need and address the shortcomings in that
industry over the subsequent five years. That was accepted by the Government
and implemented. 2971. The
second skills report looked at the area of life sciences. In the science sectors of biology and
chemistry it identified a shortfall of some 1,000 professionals. The
Government and the education system took steps to address those shortages by putting in place extra
courses to meet the future demands and professional needs of the industry. 2972. The
expert skills group examines the supply and demand patterns in the Irish economy
on a sectoral basis. It tries to match demand with supply, and it looks at how best the demands
can be addressed. It examines whether the educational system can be tweaked
or changed to meet some of the skill needs, and whether those needs can be met
by improving the skills and expertise of the existing workforce through in-company
training. It also explores the possibility of filling some of the niche areas
through targeted immigration. 2973. The
third report will be published in the next two to three months. It identifies a niche market need
for skilled researchers, particularly in the areas of biotechnology, information and
communication technology and the physical sciences. There is a shortfall
in the state in those areas and, over the next two years, we will be running
a campaign to attract researchers and research assistants from EU and non-EU
countries to help to address that shortfall. 2974. The
group recognises that there is little purpose in drawing up or implementing
detailed reports unless we can address the issues of secondary-level education
and entry into tertiary level. We have therefore put in place a significant
programme aimed at highlighting to school leavers the occupations and career
opportunities that may evolve. Lorcan O'Raghallaigh will explain how that works. 2975. Mr O'Raghallaigh: The National Skills Awareness Campaign
committee is a subcommittee of the expert group on skills. The committee comprises
representatives from industry and education, as well as social partners. Its importance
has grown in recent months; for example, its budget has increased from
IR£70,000 last year to over IR£240,000 this year. The committee decides how
it uses that money. For example, in the past it produced a brochure highlighting
opportunities in certain skills areas, which was delivered to every secondary-level
student, from transition year to sixth year. It also produced a video to illustrate
each of the skills areas, which was distributed to every guidance counsellor
in the country. The committee works very closely with the guidance counsellors
to encourage them to spend as much time as possible in promoting careers in
those skills areas. 2976. There have been other skills
awareness campaigns. For example, the Institution of Engineers of Ireland
has a campaign, scheduled to run over a five-year period, to encourage young people
to take up careers in engineering. CERT, the hospitality and tourism industry's
training agency, has a very extensive campaign aimed at encouraging people to
enter the hotel and catering industry. 2977. Forfás
also has a science campaign to attract young people, from primary-school level,
to study physics
and chemistry, which are areas in which numbers have dropped. We work proactively
and actively with industries, schools and the Department of Education.
Many major companies in Ireland, such as Analog Devices, Intel and Motorola,
work with local schools. They often invite transition-year classes to spend
the day at their facility with their education liaison officer. This is aimed at encouraging
people to consider pursuing a career in this area by showing them the
opportunities that exist. 2978. The
Institution of Engineers of Ireland holds an engineering day where every qualified
member of the institution is asked to take at least one child to their work
place and make it as interesting as possible. If you are working on a large
building site then the child can be quite excited about that. If you are in
a design office it
might be quite different. All of those campaigns are trying to attract
young people to choose these jobs as careers. We need more young people. FÁS
is taking a roadshow
across Europe, and as far as Newfoundland, Boston and Chicago, in an
attempt to attract Irish people back, and also to attract foreign people, if
they have the skills. 2979. Mr Bannon: I would like to give you an
overview of some of the work already done and some that is now in place. The
first skills report was published in 1998. It focused on IT skills and identified
the actions to be
taken. The second report was published a year and a half later, and it
revisited the IT sector but identified that the actions we had promoted under
the first report were adequate to meet the needs. 2980. The
second report also looked at life sciences and the construction sector. It deemed
that there was a shortage of 1,000 skilled professionals in the area and it
made recommendations. It also looked at the need for researchers and identified
that the action needed was not serious enough to require work at that time. 2981. The
third report, which we are about to release, will look at the IT sector, life
sciences, the construction sector, researchers and the manner in which we have
implemented our other recommendations to date. There are very large skill shortages,
particularly in the construction and IT sectors. The state has only begun to
address the shortages in the research sector and the need for an awareness campaign. 2982. We
have published five horizontal reports. The first was on in-company training
and focused on the need for education and learning in industry to be based on a tripartite approach.
The individual, the industry and the Government jointly need to address educational
needs. We identified that there needed to be a change in the mindset of small
companies to ensure that they realised that investment in the education of their
workforces was an investment, not a cost. They needed to see that there would
be a return on that investment. We exhorted the industry that, even though it
felt that by reskilling the workforce it was doing so for someone else's benefit,
it was a risk that it should take. It is difficult to change such a mindset. 2983. There
is a need to help small industries release people for training. We subsidise
much of the training costs of external courses. However, there are two issues
involved. One issue is the portability of training and how it can lead to qualifications
and become part of a lifelong-built set of qualifications. The second issue
is the need for employers to recognise that they need to reskill their workforce.
One thing that people look for when applying for jobs is the opportunity for
future training, advancement and skill enhancement. Unless employers provide
training opportunities their workforce will be dissatisfied. There is a need
to recognise that. 2984. We
also produced a report on e-business. The main core of it was the establishment
of another forum, focusing on electronics, to bring together education professionals
in the IT and computer sectors in the colleges, the various IT representative
bodies, the Government and business representatives to continually sit and
refocus on the training needs of that industry. One of the issues that emerged
- and this touches on the teacher exchanges that were mentioned in the earlier
evidence session - was the need to acquire trainers or IT specialists who are
up to date and who have the skills to provide the training in the third-level
institutions that is needed for modern industry. 2985. As
with other teachers in the third-level sector, the skilled trainers or educators
in that area simply cannot be afforded. Therefore we are putting together a
process, involving international - particularly multinational - industry in
Ireland and the third-level institutions, to share skilled professionals. For example,
in integrated circuit design they may be able to share the skills of
work managers or operatives on the shop floor to help in course design and training
in third-level institutions. 2986. We
are working on a project to look at the return of the over-55s to the Irish
workforce. We have identified that the Irish labour force is down the league
table in European terms, and we are looking at what incentives or mechanisms
can be put in place to attract more people from that cohort back into the workforce. 2987. We
are continually doing vacancy surveys, on a regional and occupation basis throughout
the country, to identify the vacancy levels down to an occupation level and
to better identify the sorts of skills that we will need over the next year
and how we can forecast that better. 2988. We
are looking at two other large projects. One that Lorcan O'Raghallaigh referred
to is looking at the need for engineers in the economy, and the shortages that
are coming up, particularly in view of the national plan that will absorb a
huge number of the skilled workforce and may need a lot of external resources
to achieve. Another project is starting to look at the issue of the scarcity
of women working in the high- technology sector. 2989. Mr Beggs: You may have some lessons for
us to learn for our own training establishments. You said that Forfás was involved
in co-ordinating, rather than managing, and trying to create competitiveness.
From personal experience in the small industry sector in Northern Ireland, I
have had difficulty in tendering in the Republic because of what I consider to be restrictive
practices.
Despite having the International Standardisation Organisation (ISO) 9002,
additional, very similar, quality tests were required, and those tests imposed
additional anti-competitive
burdens on Northern Ireland companies in cross-border trading. I just
want to register that fact. 2990. How
accurately have you been able to predict the future skills needs, because it
is a difficult science to know where the market is going? There have been a
lot of successes, but have
there been mistakes? Regarding your national skill awareness, we too
have surveys of where vacancies are going to be. 2991. How
have you been able to get the schools, the further education colleges and the
career guidance people to think of where the job vacancies lie, rather than
narrow-mindedly thinking of academia? How have you been able to take that information
and move the educational world forward in conjunction with the industry's needs? 2992. Mr Bannon: I will take your comments on
board. If you mention the sector afterwards, I might be able to put a word in
the right place. 2993. You
mentioned the rather inexact science - it may be optimistic to call it a science
at all - in attempting to forecast skill shortages, and the demand and supply
of skills, over a five to ten-year horizon. We have gone through some four iterations
in four or five major sectors, and we are still widening the scope. We are getting
better as we go along. It is a matter of doing it repeatedly. When you do it
the third time, you were probably better than the first. 2994. We
have made blunders throughout in various places. I would prefer not to describe
them, but there have been mistakes. We started the cycle in 1997-98. We have
done it three times, and this autumn we will simply start again. If we survive
until 2002 we will do the same. Through this continual process we are becoming
better at what we do. We are becoming more knowledgeable about the labour market
base, and we are becoming more effective. It will not be right, but it is getting better - we are
getting closer to being correct. 2995. The
second question you asked is probably more structural than first meets the eye. The configuration
of decision making in the education sector in the Republic is such that the
funding moves through the Department of Education, via the Higher Education
Authority, to the third-level institutions. 2996. The
Higher Education Authority is one of our partners in managing the process. By
having it and the Department of Education sitting at the table prior to the
recommendations being sent to the Government, we know that the recommendations
are regarded as being good. If they do not think that they are good, they will
have to explain to the industry representatives why they are not doing what
the industry suggests would be right and proper for the future of that industry.
We are able to bring a lot of influence to bear on the third-level institutions
in this regard. 2997. We
are just beginning to address the second- level sector. We have major problems there. The strength
of the economy is such that we are having difficulty retaining our senior-cycle-level
students. Many of them are working outside of their school hours, which,
we have been advised, is to the detriment of their education. 2998. We
are considering in a number of our reports how we could provide incentives or
regulation that would limit the number of hours that senior-cycle students could work while
they are at school. We could put in place some sort of incentive to ensure that
students do not drop out through the course of the senior cycle. 2999. We
are beginning to address the issues at tertiary level. We seem to have achieved
the highest level of completion rates in our third-level cycles, but the problem
with having achieved this level is that you can only go down. 3000. We
need incentives. Perhaps we need to supply specialist student advisers and a
range of other people to support students who are having difficulties in their
degree courses. We need to
support students to maximise our completion rates at tertiary level. 3001. Mrs Carson: Your presentation was fascinating. Is Forfás
a quango? Are you appointed or are you civil servants? How many people are on
your board? Forfás has a broad remit. What is its link and relationship with
elected members, and how does it relate back through its hierarchy to elected
members? Does Forfás take direction from the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and
Employment or are matters left to the board? 3002. You
have a tremendous remit; you advise the Minister, and that is a large undertaking.
Forfás has a very large budget for a subcommittee - IR£560 million in the technology
fund. Will you provide some background on Forfás for the Committee please? 3003. Mr Bannon: We work for Forfás, which,
I suppose, is a quango; it is a semi-state body. It is not a state body; it
hovers between the civil service and commercial semi-state bodies. The experts
skills group is a sub-set of Forfás, and it works in the skills area. Boards
are appointed by the Ministers. The board of Forfás is appointed by the Minister
of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It is broadly representative of the social
partners. 3004. Mr O'Raghallaigh: The chairman of the
Forfás board is John Dunne from IBEC, which represents the business community.
He took over from Peter Cassells of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU),
who is about to be
replaced by David Beggs. In 1997, 18 members were appointed to the Expert
Group on Future Skills Needs. I will leave you copies of the reports. 3005. Mrs Carson: That would be helpful, because
I was trying to understand the lineage and the hierarchy; it is a bit confusing. 3006. Mr O'Raghallaigh: There are 18 members.
The meetings take place every six to eight weeks, and 25 to 30 people turn up.
These are people who are interested in the work being done, and they request
permission to attend the meetings. All the meetings are held in private; they
are not open to members of the public. 3007. The
expert group reaches decisions, and those decisions are shown in an annual report
making recommendations. The implementation group that Mr Bannon mentioned is
made up of high-level civil servants - the secretaries general of the major
implementing Departments. They look at that report and say, "Yes, we agree
with that report. We are prepared to recommend it to the Ministers". The Ministers
are not going to disagree with their senior civil servants. Once they put their
seal on it, they are endorsing those recommendations. 3008. To
date there have been 96 recommendations out of the reports that we have published.
As Séamus Bannon said, we have learnt since the beginning. In some of the early recommendations
we used such words as "encourage co-operation between industry, the trade
unions and education". We no longer use "encourage"; we say "Here is a specific
target for you to meet by the end of 2001". 3009. We
have followed up all of the 96 recommendations, and we will publish the findings
from that follow-up. Anybody who is lax in implementing what was approved by the expert
and implementation groups, and endorsed by the Government, will stand
out. That is how it happens. 3010. Mrs Carson: How are your members paid? 3011. Mr O'Raghallaigh: They are all voluntary.
Having said that, Séamus Bannon and I both work for Forfás. I am the joint secretary
of the expert group, so it is part of my job. There is a member from the Department
of Education, and part of his job is to be on the expert group. Part
of the jobs of people from Government Departments is to serve on the expert
group. 3012. However, there are several
members who represent industry, and they are there in a voluntary capacity.
A representative of the ICTU is there as part of his job. David Lowe, from Goodbody
Stockbrokers, is there as a voluntary appointee of a Minister. Joe McCarthy,
a private consultant, also gives his time to it. 3013. Because
we only meet every eight weeks, a subgroup is appointed to look at the construction
industry. That subgroup might meet six times in those eight weeks to come up
with its recommendations to the expert group. A subgroup will look at the life
sciences, or the
IT sector, and come up with recommendations to the expert group. The expert
group is perfectly entitled to ask the subgroup difficult questions.
The subgroup must be able to answer those questions before the expert group
will endorse the report. 3014. Mrs Carson: That is fascinating, and it
will give us a lot of thought. 3015. Ms McWilliams: It is an interesting model.
However, given that the model is so effective in following through to the implementation
stage and setting the targets and timetables, do you achieve open public debate
on the issues? Do the reports reach the Floor of the Oireachtas and are they
widely debated? Is your work widely disseminated in the community? Do the press
take an active interest in what you are doing? How do you generally communicate
this model of work? 3016. Where
did the skills design come from? Did it come from a recognition that, in the
absence of interaction between the practitioners and the teachers, people were
not quite meeting the needs, or was it driven as a recommendation from one of
the reports? Has it been expanded? Did it start as a pilot project? Was there
much reaction from the universities and colleges to the redesign of the curriculum?
Was it received positively? 3017. Mr Bannon: There had been, since 1995
or 1996, some interaction,
particularly between the regional technical colleges, or the institutes of technology
as they became, and the newer industries, such as Intel, in looking at
the type of graduate needed. 3018. Out
of that interaction a relationship emerged involving the public relations departments
of some of the major industries and the universities. They discussed course
content and how courses might be adapted. That was the genesis of it. We then
captured that in a number of the reports to "cast it in stone". It was an evolving
thing, rather than a piece of research that identified a need for course design
and the fact that industry could impact upon that. 3019. Mr O'Raghallaigh: I want to add one point.
In the presentation that you received from Letterkenny Institute of Technology,
I would be surprised if it did not mention that it is designing, in co-operation
with industry, courses to attract young people. 3020. It
is competing for young people, and many young people do not know what they want
to do. The Central Applications Office lists up to 500 courses around the country.
Young people could be really impressed by a course in multimedia e-commerce
skills at Letterkenny - or a course at Trinity College in Dublin or Waterford
Institute of Technology. They can be so impressed by the course contents that
they will decide
that moving to Donegal, Dublin or Waterford is not a bad idea. 3021. The
institutes realise that, to keep numbers up, they must make the courses attractive
to young people otherwise they will not get funding. The Higher Education Authority
and the National Council for Education Awards will not provide funds to colleges
or institutes if they do not make the courses relevant for both industry and
the young people themselves. 3022. Mr Bannon: Your questions on our relationship
with the public and our elected representatives, and on the debate and discourse
in relation to our work, were very interesting. Debate on our reports on the
Floor of the Oireachtas is minimal. However, our reports have formed the basis
of six or seven memoranda to the Government over the past years for Cabinet
decision. 3023. The
expert group, in reporting directly to the two Ministers involved, somewhat
bypasses the elected representative debate. It goes, through its Ministers,
to the Cabinet. The discussion takes place in the Cabinet and the various Departments
to ensure that they are all happy with the way the report is represented and
the recommendations therein. The reports have featured in debates in the House
from time to time, but not formally. The main implementation group does, to
an extent, bypass debate in the House. 3024. We
have - and Lorcan O'Raghallaigh has a copy with him - a supplement that was
published last January in 'The Irish Times' on the total skills work. Our reports
are covered and discussed by the papers. The press coverage is not huge, but
we generally send every report to the decision makers whom we consider to be
relevant, both in industry and in the public sector. 3025. We
have a run of some 3,000 copies. Copies are sent by the chairman of the skills
group to identified decision
makers, drawing their attention to the recommendations and suggesting
where they should perhaps play their part in implementing the recommendations.
It is quite a hands-on approach. 3026. Mr O'Raghallaigh: From a press and publicity
point of view it is not one of the key issues that attracts the press. We have
coverage in three newspapers - the 'Irish Examiner', the 'Irish Independent' and 'The
Irish Times'. John Walsh writes in the 'Irish Independent', while Emmett
Oliver and Sean Flynn write for 'The Irish Times'. When we launch a report we
will get some coverage, but that is not what it is about for us. 3027. No
one in the expert group is an elected representative. They are all people from
industry or work. Publicity is not the key for them. They like to see it, because
it shows a response to their work, but we do not try to get publicity. The implementation
of the report recommendations is what counts. 3028. Mr Byrne: I too thank you for your presentation. In relation
to the expert groups, who is taking the lead in data research between the meetings?
Do you have a strong liaison with individual sectors, or their representatives,
such as CERT in the catering industry? 3029. In
relation to the critical analysis and appraisal of the bottlenecks in industry,
is it the commitment of the members of the group that is bringing the truth
of the situation to the discussion
table? How do you bridge the gap between the administrators, the academics,
and people in the field, such as the technicians? 3030. Mr Bannon: Taking IT skills as an example,
Forfás manages the research in a subgroup context. The subgroup consists of
members from the main expert skills group and some other people who we
think have something
to offer. We build on research by consultants, and, to the best of our
ability, using the work that we have done previously, we identify the shortages
and demands. We talk to the IDA Ireland and look for five to seven-year horizons.
We talk to Enterprise Ireland about indigenous industry and look for five to
seven-year horizons and employment patterns. We attempt to ascertain the occupational
and skill profiles that are needed to fill the gaps, and we get that endorsed
by the subgroup. In such a process we also bring together 30 or 40 of the main
decision makers in one room, put the recommendations and research in front of
them and ask them if the results seem reasonable. We did that in January this
year, but there was a problem then because of the downturn in the IT sector,
particularly in the USA. You cannot continue to research every month because
of the economic fluctuations in a particular market. However, we got a reassurance
that our projections for supply and demand were adequate and that they would
meet the needs of the industry over the next five to seven years. 3031. When
you speak about the people in the field, I assume that you mean the educators
or the trainers. We tend to use the leverage of the funding mechanisms that
are represented on the expert skills group. A person from a college in Letterkenny
will talk to local industry to find out what courses to offer so that the course
places will be filled through the Central Applications Office. The course will
then get funding from the Department of Education and Science and the Higher
Education Authority, representatives of which sit on the expert skills group.
It knits together - it is stronger than a moral authority. If you have a funding
agency that thinks, for example, that you should offer three courses in a particular
subject, you might be reluctant to say "no" if that agency is responsible for
paying your cheque at the end of the week. 3032. Mr O'Raghallaigh: You mentioned the commitment of members
to the expert group. The members' involvement goes beyond commitment - they
have enthusiasm for the work. It is fine for me and for Séamus Bannon to contribute,
because it is part of our day jobs, and it is the same for the representative
of the Department of Education and Science. It is the private members who give
their own time - not just to the expert group but also to the subgroups. We
do not pay them. We probably have only one lunch per year, which does not even
include wine, but they still want to be involved. 3033. Mr Dallat: You spoke about the "Celtic
tiger" and about how young people can rush out and start earning big money with
no skills. However, when all the buildings that are being built are completed
they are going to
be occupied by employers who will demand the very best skills. Those
employers will certainly demand that their staff have the basic ability to read
and write. The Department of Education and Science and the ICTU recommended
an initiative to address literacy and numeracy. We would be interested to know
how that has gone, because it is a serious problem in the North and, I expect, in the Republic also. 3034. Mr Bannon: Could we take a rain check
on that question, because I am not sure that I have the answer? 3035. Mr O'Raghallaigh: One of our colleagues,
Kay Hallahan, has
followed that up. She has the information. I will give the Committee
Clerk a call and let him know what progress has been made or what initiatives
have been taken. 3036. Mr Dallat: That would be excellent. 3037. The
report that I was referring to also makes reference to social problems and negative
attitudes to work
et cetera. The discussion so far has been concentrated and very good,
but the real world is not perfect. That is why I asked about literacy and numeracy
and why I would ask about attitudes to work and social problems. In your opinion,
how can the issue of attitudes, and related issues, be addressed? 3038. Mr O'Raghallaigh: I will give an example.
Last night I was at the National Basketball Stadium in Tallaght. It was a really
wet night. My son was in a children's choir and was not enthusiastic about going.
He would have preferred to watch the Liverpool match. When we came
out it was very cold with lashing rain, and there were guys directing the cars
out. There were about 600 to 700 adults at the event. This morning I was talking
to a colleague, and I said "I was really surprised to see those guys there.
How much do you pay guys at 11.30 at night to direct cars out of a car park?"
His answer to me was that those men would be on a community employment scheme.
They would perhaps be long-term unemployed people who do not have a great attitude
to work. 3039. They
get paid a sum of money per week, but they give hours to local community work
during that time. Those hours are decided by a local community office - a FÁS
office. Those guys drew the short straw last night and were directing the traffic
at 11.30pm in the freezing cold, but they may not work the rest of the week.
There are a number of people in any community who are not used to working -
who do not have a positive attitude to work. That is a gentle way to try to
reintroduce them to work. Perhaps it means getting them to clean out the canal
for a few hours per day or to clean up the rubbish by the sides of the roads. 3040. From
my experience in the USA, I know that chain gangs are used to do that type of
thing. There are various local community employment schemes around Ireland.
A work party is organised under the local community employment scheme to weed
the flower beds at Glendalough. It is a fine balance as to what the gardeners,
the landscapers and the Coillte workers do and what the local employment office
suggests for community employment. Our concentration, and the work of the expert
group, has been toward the higher level. Due to the pressure that we are under,
it is going to continue to be toward the higher level. 3041. Other
organisations are looking at what can be done for the lower level. Séamus Bannon
mentioned the over-55s - people who are not necessarily the lower level. They
have a very good attitude to work, but the employers do not have a great attitude
towards them. Women
could be a fantastic asset to the workforce, but they need to be convinced,
and employers need to be convinced, that they would make a welcome contribution
to their area. 3042. Mr Bannon: I want to add to what Lorcan
O'Raghallaigh has said. We are looking - and we have not made this as public
as perhaps we should have - at various means of attempting to keep people in
work. We are looking at the over-55s group. We are considering the possible
ring-fencing of social security payments for people who are in retirement or
in social welfare systems so that they will not be disadvantaged by re-entering
the workforce. A range of such issues may be the subject of a report later in
the year. 3043. We
are also looking at attempting to get the maximum number of potential participants
into the workforce from those groups that are traditionally not in it. For example,
there are some inner-city schools in Dublin that would have had only one leaving certificate
student going to third-level education in the past five years. That is crazy.
If we are to continue to get the type of workforce that the Irish economy needs,
some things will have to change. 3044. There
may be opportunities to upskill people in prisons to make them more available
to the workforce. In doing things like that we can cover a couple of policy
issues with one approach. We also want to concentrate on early school leavers
and perhaps apply something such as training grants for tertiary-level education
for those in deprived areas. People would not have to go out to work, and, if
they are from a socially deprived area, they may be able to acquire means-tested
grants or subsistence to enable them to continue with school. We are looking
at a range of social areas across the board. 3045. The
remit of the expert group is not only to look at the higher skills required
by the demand-driven economy in Ireland but also to look at labour market issues.
The more people that we can get from our own population into the workforce,
the less we have to depend on immigrants. The impact of immigrants on housing,
education and the social services will be reduced if we can encourage more of our own population
into the workforce. 3046. Mr Dallat: Is it true that the abolition of university fees
did nothing for the type of people about whom we are talking? 3047. Mr Bannon: That did not do anything - certainly not
in my experience. 3048. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you for
your contribution this afternoon, and for taking the time to travel up and meet
us. Your submission was useful and informative, and we will look at it with
regard to our own situation. The Committee will see how the good practice that
you have employed can be applied to the benefit of all our people. We wish you
well in the job that you are doing for the people in Southern Ireland. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 24 May 2001 Members present: Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Miss M Matchett
) Mr V McIver
) The Education and Training
Mr R McCaughey ) Inspectorate Mrs C Bell
) Department of Higher and
Further Education, Training and
Employment 3049. The Deputy Chairperson: I welcome you
this afternoon. Thank you for contributing to this inquiry. We have a copy of
your written submission, and we are looking forward to your presentation. The
normal format is that a member of the delegation makes a short presentation.
The Committee members are under severe pressure for time, so if you could keep
your presentation as succinct as possible, hopefully the Members will reciprocate. 3050. Marion Matchett will be making
the presentation. On a personal note, I would like to say how glad I
am to see Marion. She attended the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) this morning,
so she has taken up residence in the building today. She has only been in the
post for six months and, as a fellow Portadown person, I have followed her career
progress with great interest. We congratulate her on her appointment and wish
her well as she takes up the challenge of her new position. 3051. Miss Matchett: Thank you very much. You
have asked us to keep our opening remarks brief, and we will. I am accompanied
by Vivian McIver who is assistant chief inspector with responsibility for further
education and training, Catherine Bell who was staff inspector, but who is now
working on policy in the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training
and Employment (DHFETE), and Russell McCaughey from our inspection team. 3052. For
those who have not come across the work of the inspectorate before, we provide
inspection services for three Departments and policy advice to three Ministers.
I will not rehearse the detail of that. 3053. I will explain briefly what
inspection is and what we do. We promote the highest possible standards
in further education and training. We are involved in further education, the
Jobskills training programme, New Deal and, in fact, in all Government-funded training,
for example, the Rapid Advancement programme and the Wider Horizons programme. 3054. We
have a wide brief in terms of promoting improvement and the highest possible
standards, which we do through inspection. Our inspection provides evidence
to the chief inspector, the Departments and Government Ministers, and it provides
the governing body and management of colleges with an independent assessment of quality. It
also allows colleges to compare performance, and it promotes the dissemination
of good practice. 3055. We
provide information to the general public about the quality and standards of
provision. We have two types of inspections that allow us to do that - an extended
inspection covering all aspects of provision and management, and a focused inspection.
Individual inspectors visit colleges, and we have district and specialist
responsibilities. That would be our involvement with further education colleges,
the Jobskills training programme and New Deal. From that, and the observation of
first-hand evidence, we provide inspection advice for the colleges and policy
advice to the Department. Vivian McIver will briefly describe the inspection activity. 3056. Mr McIver: I will cover what it looks
like on the ground. As Marion Matchett said, our fundamental stock and trade
is first-hand evidence in the classroom, lecture hall or workshop. That is what
we rely on, and that is our fallback position. We are not researchers, and we
do not pretend to be. 3057. The
other fundamental is that we report as we find. For example, in looking at Level
3 provision in further education, my colleagues would have seen over 600 teaching
sessions before putting pen to paper to write a draft report. That gives an
idea of the size of sample on which a particular report would be based. 3058. We
report on individual institutions on a regular basis. We sometimes also report
in survey form across a number of institutions, looking at a specific topic,
theme or issue, and report across the Province. 3059. The
regularity of our inspections has changed over the years. In further education
and training, there is a four-year cycle and an eight-year cycle, but there
are much more frequent visits by district inspectors to institutions - usually,
at the very least, twice a year. A significant amount of our work forms the
basis of policy advice, which we give to the three Departments that we serve.
A great deal of their policy is based on our advice, which in turn reflects
the information that we glean from our first-hand evidence. An example of that
would be information communication technology provision in further education. 3060. Mrs Bell: I want to talk briefly about
quality assurance. Incorporation made a big change for the colleges. They are
businesses in their own right. The inspectorate firmly believes that it could not inspect
quality into an organisation. Even though the inspectorate visits or
inspects once every four or eight years, or a district inspector visits much
more frequently, we cannot be in the classrooms all the time, given the wide
range of work that goes on
in a further education college. 3061. A
few years ago the inspectorate decided that it would make public its indicators
of quality - the benchmarks that the inspectorate uses against which it makes
its judgement. These were given to the college, which was then asked to undertake a self-evaluation
prior to inspection. That document has had wider ramifications because
colleges have now built the process into their normal quality assurance arrangements. 3062. During
the first year of the pilot, we discovered that there was an emphasis on evaluating
the quality of teaching. That was very difficult, given that the inspectorate is trained
to do that and that people going into a classroom can cause a great deal of
consternation. Secondly, people need the skills necessary to evaluate
themselves. We decided that we would work with the sector, and we introduced
the idea of associate assessors working with the inspectorate. We train
them, and every college has at least two people trained in the inspectorate's
ways of working. They work with the inspectorate using our manual and a CD-ROM
that we developed. They then disseminate that practice across their institutions. 3063. The focus now is very firmly
on the organisation taking responsibility for its own quality with the
inspectorate working alongside it, and the organisation drawing up an action
plan to address the weaknesses. The first few times, colleges produced marketing
plans for us. They were providing prospectuses rather than truly critically
evaluating their provision. However, they have moved significantly, and in the
last year we have seen a great improvement in the rigour of self-evaluation. 3064. Mr Dallat: I read the book from cover
to cover. The world is changing very fast, so is an inspection every eight years
adequate or even relevant? You answered that to some degree by talking about
district inspectors, but further education colleges are often the institutions
that pick up those people who have been failed by the other system, and lifelong
learning is preferred here. 3065. We
were in Craigavon and Portadown last week and were told by one employer that
some employees have difficulty counting up to nine in order to put pieces of
material into a bag. They also cannot read simple labels. Does the inspector
have a wider remit in helping to redress these problems? I am attributing no
blame to further education because I am a product of it, and I have the greatest
admiration for it. 3066. Until
recently the bottom 20% did not matter because they were unemployed. But now
the people in that
20% have become very valued members of society, and employers are going
to extraordinary lengths to arrange educational programmes to teach them basic
English and simple arithmetic. None of the employers have been critical of the
individuals. They have all said that the system has failed them. 3067. I
would like to be assured that inspectors have a hands-on input and not just in the eight-year inspection.
They would need to be encouraging the 17 colleges to formulate special
programmes depending on where they are located. That is where the employer comes
in. I would like you to expand on that because it would be very important for
our report. 3068. Miss Matchett: To say that there is a
formal inspection once every eight years is misleading. The inspector goes
to colleges and training organisations much more regularly than that. At the
PAC meeting this morning, we referred to the surveys that we carry out, the
district inspector role and the other formal inspection activities. It is therefore
much more frequent than every eight years. 3069. Catherine
Bell and Russell McCaughey perhaps will talk about how that works in practice.
Every eight years is the requirement on the inspectorate, and we would share
your concerns if that were the only time or opportunity we had for formal inspection
activity. There is a degree of regularity with a number of different kinds of
inspections. As Catherine Bell has said, there is the business of saying that
colleges must be much more self-evaluative and reflective regarding their own
improvement. 3070. Mrs Bell: In the last few years the inspectorate
has certainly been much more involved with working in colleges. We are involved
in the interface between the Department and colleges, particularly since the
advent of incorporation. For the last three years every college has had a significant
amount of work undertaken in it through inspections related to the college
development planning process. Although not a focused inspection, it was an inspection
in the sense that we were looking right across a major area of each college's
work. We have carried out inspection work every year and in every college since
1998. Also, self-evaluation has made a significant difference. 3071. You
are absolutely right about basic skills - that is the challenge we face. We
have done some work to inform the Department's strategy which, as you know,
we are currently writing. We worked in about five colleges to examine their work with the community
and with secondary and tertiary students who should not have had difficulties
with basic skills. However, when we looked at the standards in their vocational
work, we saw that many of the difficulties were to do with weaknesses in literacy
and numeracy. We have worked very closely with specific colleges and the Department. 3072. As
a result of that small piece of work, we ran dissemination events with the 17
colleges in the sector. We invited the five or six colleges we had worked with,
which all had examples of good practice, to share this with others. We also
got them to raise matters with which they had difficulty, for there is no point
in focusing only on the good practice. We must raise the difficulties, for they are common across the 17
colleges. We therefore also got them to raise the problems and how they
felt the inspectorate might help to address them, feeding back to the Department
so we would have some shared understanding of the issues. 3073. Basic
skills is only one area we have examined in that format. We also worked on widening
access and the "Lecturers into Industry" initiative, and we shared these experiences
among the 17 colleges. Although statutorily we have a focused inspection once
every four years and an extended inspection once every eight years, there is
a college inspection annually. 3074. Mr McIver: The inspections every four
and eight years are when there is a full-blown visit with a very comprehensive
published report. Nowadays there is a published report on all our work. Having
just taken over in further education, I am told that colleges feel that they
are over-inspected. I have been listening carefully to this; the 17 colleges
say that there is at least one inspector with them every week surveying, talking
or looking at certain departments. 3075. There
is one other small point. I am always slightly bemused when people talk about
employees who cannot add up to nine, and so on. To be honest, our evidence is
not of a system in further education, or anywhere else, dreadfully failing our
young people on this scale. Of course, there are exceptions, and we dare not
be complacent. 3076. Mr Dallat: I suggest that you receive
a copy of the report that was prepared by Moy Park. There are 250,000 people
with problems. However, on the positive side, I am greatly encouraged by what Catherine Bell has
said about the focus being on the community and the links with community groups,
because at the end of the day they were the people who were left to pick up
the pieces after 30 years of troubles. 3077. Mrs Bell: I totally agree in terms of
the 250,000 people - that is why we are pushing the departmental strategy and
trying to get that right. The one encouraging thing that I have held on to is
that when you look at the research, the difficulties are more in the population
aged over 25 years. Younger people have fewer difficulties now. That does not
mean that we do not have a challenge - we do have a challenge. The Department
of Education's literacy strategy will have to address that as well. We need
to focus on people aged 25 years and over, and that is going to be our challenge. 3078. Mr McCaughey: It is the inspectorate's involvement across
the different age groups from school, Jobskills 16-18 and New Deal 18+, that
has allowed us to be active in initiating and instigating an exciting, potential
project that addresses what I would call hard-to-help young people. The problem
is not just literacy and numeracy. Moy Park would also be concerned about the
ability of their new employees to arrive on time, be in a fit state for work
and to be able to resolve conflict and difficulties. Therefore, it is a much
more complex issue than just reading, writing and basic arithmetic. 3079. We
have convinced our own Department of Education and the Department of Higher
and Further Education, Training and Employment's T&EA to look at a pilot
project involving a holistic assessment and engaging young people who have barriers
to learning - whether they be physical, medical, social, academic or whatever.
That project is still at a very early stage. However, it is the results of our
work right across all of the phases that have enabled the Departments to do
something proactive and something that could be very beneficial. 3080. The Deputy Chairperson: I would like some
further information on your role with Jobskills and New Deal. We tend to think
the inspectorate is restricted to the education sector, and I would like some expansion
on that. If it does not come out in the questions, perhaps one of you could
pick up on it at the end. 3081. Mr Byrne: Given that the inspectorate is charged with promoting
the highest possible standards of teaching, learning and further education,
how does it link
in with the awarding bodies, for example, Business and Technology (BTEC),
Royal Society of Arts (RSA) and City & Guilds? We all have a duty to make
sure that there is a consistency of standards right across the colleges. How
much input does the inspectorate have there? 3082. Secondly,
I agree with Mr McIver that very often lecturers or teachers feel under pressure
when there are inspections on a school. How involved are the inspectorate in
advising on the management of a college in relation to the role and function
of the level of provision that they provide for their area. Does the inspectorate
get involved in giving advice to management to make sure that the college is
effective, or more effective, in how it links with its community? 3083. Mrs Bell: In 'Improving Quality: Raising
Standards', we have
challenged the colleges to consider whether the curriculum is appropriate
- not only for young people but also for the community and for the employers
within that particular area. When we inspect, those are the hard questions that
we ask. It is only from 1998 - and, particularly, from the launch of the lifelong
learning strategy in 1999 - that a clear focus for action was set for further
education colleges. 3084. Colleges
have to be all things to all people, and now they are much more focused on supporting
the economy. At the same time, they have to widen the access to people who previously
never benefited from education. Very frequently the question is asked on how
they can do both. However, we are not asking the same lecturers to do both things.
We have specialists who teach the vocational courses, and we also have lecturers
who are very skilled at working with people in the community. 3085. Further
education has the challenge to work with the community to help people get beyond
entry and foundation levels. That is the big difficulty that exists. We have
plenty of people who are engaged in learning, but not enough of them progress
beyond basic learning. The inspectorate is involved with the management of the
colleges and challenges them to think about how they are supporting the economy
and community groups in their own areas. We would like to see more of that. 3086. We
have given these manuals ('Improving Quality: Raising Standards') to the awarding
bodies as well, in order that they will know the standards against which the
inspectorate makes judgements. However, the awarding bodies are profit-making
organisations. Therefore, we do not have any control over them except that we
work with the regulatory authorities. For example, on the National Vocational
Qualification (NVQ) side we work with the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority
(QCA) and all the bodies with whom they are involved. On the General National
Vocational Qualification (GNVQ) we work with the Northern Ireland Council for
Curriculum, Examination and Assessment (CCEA). The inspectors, particularly
specialist inspectors, meet with the awarding bodies to talk about issues that
have arisen during inspections. 3087. In
one of the appendices we refer to an Early Years report where a significant
issue is raised about the awarding bodies. College lecturers can sometimes feel
that they are working for two masters. They see the inspectorate, but they also
have a body looking over
their shoulder because of the award of qualifications. When we inspect
we do not look at external verifiers' reports until we have finished our inspection
work, and we raise issues with the awarding bodies. 3088. Mr Byrne: I accept the dichotomy of the
awarding bodies and the inspectorate. There are people involved in delivering
the service at different levels, whether that is as a lecturer, a member of
this Committee or as part of the inspectorate. However, the public has a right
to consistency of a qualification that comes from a particular institution,
whether that is a BTEC or a GNVQ. Does the inspectorate give any advice to the
awarding bodies relating to the content and the quality of the courses? 3089. Mrs Bell: We cannot write the syllabuses,
but the CCEA and
the QCA have members of the inspectorate as assessors. In the development
of GNVQs, specifications were sent time after time to the inspectorate
to see whether they truly reflected what was needed for vocational education.
However, we do not write the specifications. 3090. You
can see from a number of reports that we have written recently - such as the
Level 3 report on some of our colleges - that some of the qualifications from
some of the awarding bodies do not reflect up-to-date industry standards. Some
of the units are out of date. We have taken that issue up with the relevant
awarding bodies and, more particularly, with the colleges involved. 3091. The Deputy Chairperson: Are you suggesting
that the fact that awarding bodies are profit making is an impediment to co-operation
and harmonisation in the delivery of courses? 3092. Mrs Bell: No. I am not suggesting that
at all. 3093. Mrs Nelis: I have not read all your document,
but I am interested
in quality assurance, the links between education and training and business
and industry, and your efforts to improve the images of the colleges. 3094. In
the past, the further education colleges had a serious image problem. That is
now changing. I would like you to comment on your role in that change, on the
linkages between the colleges, and their attempts to try to give access to those
previously under-represented groups. How does that approach fit in with the
New Deal training programme? What about the length of time of New Deal - which
is always criticised - and the quality of its training? Is there competition
between the two? 3095. Mrs Bell: There are a lot of questions
there. First, you are absolutely right about the image of the further education
sector. It has suffered from a poor image, and I believe that that image is
undeserved, because the colleges have done sterling work over the past number
of years. The image has changed, and the watershed was incorporation. The colleges
are now businesses, and they have had to become much more businesslike. 3096. Secondly, the lifelong learning
strategy gave them resources and strategy for the first time - because they
were seriously under-resourced - and then 'Strategy 2010' supported that.
Therefore, the image is beginning to change. There are still people who say
that the colleges are not sufficiently focused on, for example, the economy.
I do not believe that, but the colleges must do more. The inspectorate did not have much to do
with the change of image except that we were involved in giving advice on matters
such as the lifelong learning strategy. We cannot claim credit for it, although
we have written good things in reports about colleges. 3097. On
linking and reaching out to communities, the colleges have always had an ethos
of working with communities.
However, there is a plethora of community groups, and many of those groups
are funded through European funding, which is short-term. The difficulty is
that we need to continue to resource projects and to ensure that good practice
is embedded in mainstream provision. That is why programmes such as the "Access
Initiative", whereby the Department funds colleges to reach out to communities, are very important. Although
the Department does not directly fund community groups, it funds the colleges
to work with the community groups. 3098. I
have no doubt that if we are going to improve the basic skills - the literacy
and numeracy of all our adults - it will not be done solely in the further education
sector. It will only be done if the further education sector has a large role
in it, if we work with community groups at all levels, and if we work with employers
- because many of the difficulties are in employment. 3099. You
also asked about New Deal. Russell McCaughey will speak about that. 3100. Mr McCaughey: It is very encouraging to
see the development and growth of the New Deal consortia, in which the colleges
play a significant part - indeed, in many cases they are the lead partners.
They have worked very hard at reaching out into the community and drawing in
the different community groupings and organisations. 3101. Dare
I mention the old ACE schemes, for fear of stirring up a hornet's nest? Certainly
some consortia have very successfully incorporated old ACE providers into their set-ups, either
as main partners or as associate members. There were problems with ACE,
and there is no doubt that we have not cracked them all yet. ACE was providing
very highly valued community service, but it was not really an employment training programme.
The focus
was more on providing a community service. The test is the ability to incorporate
an organisation which is out to provide a service to the community, holding
on to the quality of service but incorporating the good quality professional
training that we regard as important. Some ACE providers, even as parts of New
Deal consortia, have struggled to deal with the issues which that raises for
them. 3102. However,
the New Deal lead partners are working hard with their community groups to try
to help them to develop a balanced programme that maintains community service
but also focuses strongly on the benefits to the client - ensuring empowerment
and increased employability.
That includes qualifications, as well as work experience and the improvement
of self-esteem that you would develop in the programme. 3103. Mr McIver: One of the things that helps,
and which will increasingly help, the image of further and higher education
is proper staff development for full-time and part-time staff. That helps to
boost staff morale and increases confidence. It exists to an extent in the schools
sector, and I notice that the further education people are contrasting that
with their own situation, where there is not the same structure for initial
induction or early, and continuing, professional development. That is an area
to be worked at to generally raise morale and help to further raise the standing
of colleges. 3104. I
return to this point because, as I said to Mr Dallat, teachers and lecturers
take a bit of a bashing on occasions, and it is ill-merited in this Province. 3105. Mr Dallat: That was not what I was implying. 3106. Mrs Carson: From what Mr McCaughey said,
it seems that we have a problem not just in the further education colleges but
right down through our whole education system. We have people coming through
without literacy and numeracy. When they are looking for a job it is too late
for the inspectorate or anybody else to be expected to do something at that
stage. It should be tackled in the primary schools. I visited Moy Park within
the last few weeks, and it finds that the problem is that some employees cannot
even listen to instructions, and this is coming through right from primary
school. You have got to look right back down the line, because by further education
level it is too late. 3107. Miss Matchett: What we were saying this
morning at the PAC is relevant, because we were looking at this issue in the
context of the schools. The Department of Education, which has responsibility
for schools and pre-school education, recognises exactly what you have said. There
is therefore heavy investment in the early years - in the pre-school
expansion programme and in the school support programme - to address some of the issues
that you have raised. The focus is to invest early in young children's development
so that many of the difficulties can be addressed within the school sector.
The school support programme is designed to do exactly that. The inspectorate,
once again, has a heavy involvement in working with schools where there are
particular difficulties, to help to ensure that young people get off to the
best possible start and that their difficulties do not increase as they move
through the sectors. 3108. Mrs Carson: You must recognise, even at
pre-school level, that listening is a skill. 3109. Miss Matchett: Absolutely. 3110. Mrs Carson: Listening to instructions
is a skill that must be developed - but that is a topic for another day. 3111. Miss Matchett: Mind you, people would
say that the population, generally, does not listen as well as it did in the
past. That is not insignificant. 3112. Mrs Carson: Part of the inspection process
in relation to further education involves assessment of the colleges' relationships
with business and industry. Many of the presentations to us have been from industry,
and we have heard much about what is needed. What are the inspectorate's
views on the relationship between education and training and business and industry? 3113. Mrs Bell: It is getting better - there
is no doubt about that. I looked at the figures recently. In the past three years, in the major
vocational areas such as engineering, software engineering and computing, there
has been a 27% increase in the number of students taking up places in
these areas in further education. Those courses have strong links with industry. 3114. Secondly, the "Lecturers
into Industry" initiative has been very successful. It started out with engineering
and hospitality and catering, before extending into software engineering last
year. In the coming year it will extend into construction. The initiative takes
a lecturer out of a college for 12 weeks to put him or her with an employer
to undertake a major project. The difficulty is that we need somebody to cover
the classes in the
college. We need more placements from industry into further education. Many
lecturers also keep up to date by working with their own professional bodies. 3115. We
would like to see the "Lecturers into Industry" initiative mainstreamed, with
much more investment on an ongoing basis. 3116. The third matter is the work
experience undertaken by students. All students on vocational programmes have
work experience, leading to evidence for their assignments. 3117. The fourth aspect is that
where colleges run specific courses for industry they are becoming increasingly
better at doing it. We come across excellent examples, such as the North
Down and Ards Institute of Further and Higher Education and its work with the
multimedia industry.
Another is Newry College of Further Education and its work with the hospitality
industry. Those are only examples - such work is going on in all 17 colleges.
The principle of working with industry has always been there, but it has only
been really focused since 1998-99. I hope that, in the not too distant future,
we will be able to produce evidence of all the work that colleges are carrying
out in trying to support industry. 3118. Mr McIver: The report on the "Lecturers
into Industry" initiative sums up succinctly the benefits which people have
gained. These opportunities are on a fairly limited scale as yet, but, nevertheless,
they are highly significant. 3119. Mr McCaughey: In response to the Deputy
Chairperson's request that we keep the discussion broad on training, I can advise
that there are many very positive relationships in the partnership between business
and the training organisations in the operation of the Jobskills programme
and New Deal. Without these the programmes could not operate. It is a marriage
between the two. There are significant benefits to both when it works
well, and when both are committed to it and to the development of their trainees.
One example is Jobskills Access. Many caring employers are going out of their
way to help young people who have all sorts of complex circumstances. 3120. On
traineeships, there are some very good examples of employers working proactively
with the providers to ensure the greatest breadth of experience. Modern apprenticeships
cannot operate unless the trainee is an employee. New Deal is just as good.
The employment option is very successful for the majority of clients, and other
options are working well. 3121. However, in a minority of
situations we, as inspectors, have been very disappointed and disillusioned
with the attitude of some employers. Government-funded schemes are looked
on by some as a way of getting cheap labour and of using people for the duration
of the subsidy. We have examples of where employers have restricted young people
by limiting their
attendance at directed training because of inadequate staffing, a production
rush or a job that has to happen on that day. The young person is encouraged
not to attend college or training. Young people are sometimes enticed to leave
training early, because they have developed adequate basic vocational skills
that meet the needs of their employer, without any regard to the individual's
future and long-term development. 3122. We
also have a few examples of failure by employers to comply with the programme's requirements
and to provide in-house or in-work training. 3123. It
is not by any means all gloomy, but it is neither black nor white. 3124. Mrs Carson: How do you inspect that? You have given us a litany
of disasters. It is your programme that is being implemented. How do
you ensure that if a disaster happens once it does not happen again? 3125. Mr McCaughey: If we come across bad practice during our
inspection, it is reported to the training organisation. That then finds its
way into the published report, and it is the responsibility of the organisation
to do something about it. The T&EA is required, through our procedures,
to ensure that action is taken to address those weaknesses, particularly if
they are significant. 3126. Mrs Carson: It would be helpful for us
to have details and statistics to bear out what you have said, because it is
an indictment of quite a lot of industry. We have been hearing the other side
- where industry feels that the education system has been failing. 3127. Mr McCaughey: We can provide those details.
They are in all of our reports. Only a minority of employers are involved, and
we do not want the issue to get out of proportion. I did say that there were
many examples of very good employers, and very good local industry, playing
a huge and significant part in the development training of young people and
the long-term unemployed. There is also the reverse side, and it would be inaccurate
to say that it is all good. 3128. The Deputy Chairperson: Does the inspectorate have
any powers of redress or sanction? Have you any teeth in such a situation, rather
than simply producing a written report and hoping that someone else observes
it and takes the appropriate action? 3129. Miss Matchett: We have a follow-up inspection
procedure. The areas that are identified within the inspection report are revisited
the following year. For example, we identify areas for development and improvement.
During the follow-up inspection those issues are addressed, and we report to
the Department on the rate of progress that has been made since the inspection.
There is a procedure that allows us to revisit and to make public our findings
on the progress made. 3130. Mrs Bell: It is also important to say
that we do not only focus on a follow-up inspection. If there is something that
concerns us - as has happened in a small number of inspections - we raise that
with the T&EA and follow it through to its conclusion. 3131. Mr Beggs: I want to go back to the colleges'
relationships with local businesses and industry. Over the past year I have
discovered that the IDB, for the first time, has started to engage with further
education colleges. During our evidence sessions we have learnt how Bombardier
Shorts has had to invest to revamp some courses that it considered were failing its students.
That has led to dramatic improvements, with about a 100% success rate on some
courses. Were these failings previously picked up by your inspectorate reports,
and, if so, why was nothing done? Why is the IDB only now engaging with the
further education colleges? On assessing the success, or otherwise, of the relationship
between local industry and a college, how do you carry out that assessment?
Do you contact local employers to see what their views are? While it is easier
for the larger employers to develop relationships, how do you assess whether
the smaller employers feel that they have a college that is servicing their
needs? 3132. My
final question is about the manner in which you carry out your inspections. There has been criticism
in the schools sector where schools were given three or four weeks' notice of
an inspection. That is the same as being told that you have three weeks to revise
before your exams start. An inordinate amount of pressure is put on teachers
by that extended period, and they would welcome a shorter period. Do you follow
the same system in colleges as you do in schools, and how do you ensure that
your reports contain constructive criticism, rather than comments that traumatise
teachers or lecturers - which can happen? 3133. Mrs Bell: The indicators of quality are
now published in 'Improving Quality: Raising Standards'. The purpose of that
is to reduce the anxiety of inspection so that every member of staff knows the
standards against which he or she is being judged. There is a different relationship
in further education between the inspectors and the college lecturers. That
may be because further education lecturers are dealing with the adult population,
and inspectors visit colleges of further education more frequently than schools.
We focused on senior lecturers and lecturers, as opposed to principals and heads
of departments, to work with the inspectorate and become associate assessors.
We have trained some
lecturers to work alongside the inspectorate, and some of them have already
worked with us on inspections. We have tried to take away any fears. Someone
coming into your classroom is always going to be intimidating. None of us liked
it, but we try to make it as unthreatening as possible. 3134. We
have also produced a CD-ROM, which the inspectorate has been using in training
the associate assessors. Interestingly, when we show the CD-ROM or the videos,
the lecturers are often much more critical than the inspectorate would be. We
have to ask them "What are the good things in that lesson?" and draw their attention,
for example, to the good relationships demonstrated, because the lecturers'
main focus may be on the negative aspects. We focus on the positive and raise
the issues afterwards. 3135. On
inspecting and reporting on links with employers, for vocational courses the inspectors always
go to where the students or the trainees are. If they are in the work place,
we go into the work place. We do not inspect the employer - we inspect the college's
support, and we inspect the quality of the training programme that has been
drawn up. 3136. A
report is soon to be issued on training for the software industry. The inspectorate
visited employers who had trainees or students who had completed their programmes
to see their progress since taking up employment. 3137. You
asked about the IDB. We did not mention the IDB formally in our reports. However,
we spoke to the T&EA when the Department of Education for Northern Ireland
and the T&EA were two separate departmental structures, to ensure that colleges
were involved with
the enterprise organisations. Unfortunately, prior to 1998 there was a
perception that further education was not supporting industry sufficiently.
We hope that this perception has changed. We now stress the need for colleges
to be involved with the IDB, LEDU, the Industrial Research Technology Unit and
the new Departments. 3138. Miss Matchett: I want to say something
further about the concerns of those being inspected. It is only natural for
people to be anxious - such activity can be quite stressful. 3139. The
inspectorate does not wish to add to the stress; it wishes to continue working
with colleges to promote improvement. However, should a college experience difficulties
during an inspection, there are procedures to allow it to approach the chief
inspector directly with any concerns. That has happened. We follow up those concerns,
because we want inspection to enable colleges to improve rather than to disable
them. 3140. The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you very
much for your written submission
and for your informative presentation. They are a useful contribution to
our inquiry. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 31 May 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Ms McWilliams Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Prof G Bain
) Mr J O'Kane
) Prof R Cormack
) The Queen's University of Belfast Mr T Newsom
) Prof E Beatty
) 3141. The Chairperson: Good afternoon, I welcome
you to the evidence session this afternoon. This is an ongoing inquiry on the
training system in the Province, and its impact on industry. Today's session
will mean that we
have heard from all three universities based here in the Province. We are pleased
to have your contribution, and we are grateful for the written submission
that you have given to the Committee. If you would give a short introduction
we will then take questions and answers. 3142. Prof Bain: The first point I want to make
is now so well known we can almost take it as read. The future of most modern
economies rests on knowledge, and human capital is now a much more important
aspect of economic development than financial capital. That is almost universally
accepted and I will not labour that view. One of the important corollaries that
flow from this is the importance of universities in that kind of economy. Universities
have an extremely important role to play as the generators of new knowledge
for that kind of economy, partly through producing graduates with the
requisite skills, and also through producing research that provides the basis
for economic development. 3143. As far as research goes,
I am sure the Committee is familiar with the reports that stress the
importance of research
and development (R&D) for economic development in Northern Ireland.
I would also stress the disproportionate role that universities here play in
producing that research base compared with other parts of the United Kingdom.
This is because the economy here is characterised by small and medium sized
enterprises (SMEs), which have less capacity to produce their own knowledge
base, compared to large multi-nationals. 3144. Maintaining
that research base in universities concerns both ourselves and also our sister
institution, the University of Ulster. Although we have been extremely grateful
for initiatives such as the support programme for university research (SPUR),
a great deal more needs to be done. Comparing us to Scotland, or indeed, our
neighbours in the Republic of Ireland, the amount being poured into research and development
there is very much greater than here, even taking SPUR into account.
You are probably familiar with the technology foresight initiative in the Republic.
£560 million is being poured into that over the next 5 or 6 years. That is in
addition to the £240 million already committed to university research. 3145. I
will leave research and development and say a word about the skills base. It
is almost a truism now in economic development that human capital is more important
than financial capital. I have only been at Queen's University for four years,
but looking back, it has always played a critical role in supplementing the
skills base. Policy has changed in the way the economy has evolved. If you go
back to the days when manufacturing was key - shipbuilding and engineering
more generally - Queen's was producing engineers, and the other professionals
in medicine, law and teaching. It is interesting the way that that has changed.
In the 1920s, as
aircraft manufacture became an important aspect of economic activity here, Queen's provided
courses in aeronautical engineering - indeed, we still have a joint venture
with Shorts. Today, we are putting a great deal of emphasis on areas such as
computing and IT. People sometimes forget that the whole world does not revolve
around computing. We have been producing new programmes in film, drama and art,
to provide the underpinning for what is now generically referred to as the creative
industries. That is something worth saying about the skills base. 3146. Finally,
I will give a minute to widening access. Clearly, if you have all this excellence,
and you do not want it to become elitist, then you have to pay some attention
to ensuring that those who can benefit from this, can get access. There are
a number of initiatives, which I will do little more than list, and then you
can explore them with my colleagues and myself if you wish. We are introducing
foundation degrees. Thanks to Prof Cormack, we have two very imaginative new
foundation degrees.
We have the " Discovering Queen's" programme, as we call it, which extended
initially to schools in the Belfast area, but is now in schools in Armagh and
Omagh, where our outreach centres are located. The purpose of this programme
is to reach young people in schools that have almost never sent people to higher
education. We are also developing close relationships with further education
colleges. One thing that sometimes gets overlooked is the Institute of Lifelong
Learning at Queen's. We rank ninth in the United Kingdom for the number of part-time
undergraduate students that we have. Those are some of the things that we are
doing. The important things for us are research and development, the skills
base, and access. 3147. Mr Carrick: In paragraph 6.2 of your submission you highlight the establishment
of a skills co-ordinating group. To what extent does that group take
on board the needs
of the industry at the coalface? The submission refers to the skills
development programme throughout the university, but it also mentions subject-specific
skills, key skills and employability skills. They are all nice terms, but I
hope that there is more to this than jargon. How does the university define
those skills, and how do the terms relate to the need for those skills in the
market place? 3148. Prof Cormack: The starting point is the Dearing agenda.
The skills co-ordinating group is a group of academics in the university who organise the development
of key skills and ensure that these are embedded in our courses. We do that
in different ways: some courses have a skills module; other courses try to embed
the skills in the modules. Ultimately our aim is to produce very literate, numerate
and IT literate graduates who have the sort of skills that employers require. 3149. The
dreadful term "oven-ready" graduate is going about at the moment. The problem
for Queen's University
is that we have only three years to ensure that our students are in command
of a certain knowledge base. In addition we try to teach them as many employability
skills as we can, but there is only so much that we can do. We have to say to
employers that we will do all that we can to supply you with "oven-ready" graduates.
There may be a training need beyond graduation which we at the university are
more than happy to fulfil. However, employers must be careful that they do not
put too much pressure on us to cram everything into a three-year programme.
We are trying to get a balance in the process of introducing and embedding these
skills in all of our undergraduate modules and courses. 3150. Mr Carrick: Are you happy that your interaction with
employers is meaningful and that you address the issues in partnership with
them? 3151. Prof Cormack: The best answer to that
is that we are increasingly introducing work-related learning into our undergraduate
degrees. The term "work-related learning" is chosen carefully because there
are all kinds of ways to bring work experience into the undergraduate programme.
The most obvious method is for students to go out on a placement. However, there
is another very successful way through project-based learning - we have brought
the world of work into the undergraduate programme. Employers give us a
project that students work on while they are at university. They then
discuss the project with the employer and produce a report for them. A couple
of years ago, one of my students did a wonderful project on absenteeism with
the Rivers Agency which they were very pleased with. She studied absenteeism
in different categories of workers such as clerical staff, manual staff, and
so on. The project introduced her into the world of work very well, but it also
produced something useful for the employer. We are learning a lot through interaction and are as responsive
as possible to the needs of employers. 3152. Prof Beatty: With regard to specialist postgraduate training,
for example, the MSc in telecommunications, we are working with a telecommunications
company to see if it will sponsor students and contribute to teaching programmes
- complementing the work of our staff. We interact well in specialist areas,
where we work closely with industry. 3153. Mrs Carson: We have had great lobby sessions
with industrialists who have pointed up a number of matters. Paragraph 4.2 discusses
partnership between higher education and industry. In what areas do you intend
to work with industry? You speak of IT, yet that industry now has problems.
Have you thought of any other specific university courses that you might pinpoint for work
with industry? 3154. Prof Cormack: Foundation degrees have
developed in a specific way in Northern Ireland because Minister Seán Farren
has been most keen that they address Northern Ireland's skill needs. We were
very much given the steer that it was more than likely to be in the area of
information technology. We have developed a degree in web technology with Omagh
Further Education
College and one on the creative industries with North Down and Ards Further
Education College in Bangor. The employers we are dealing with are British
Telecom and the BBC, and they have been intimately involved in the development
of those degrees. The students will be on placement with them as part of the degree course.
We hope we are developing skills recognised by employers. 3155. The
interesting thing about Omagh is that there is not a great deal of IT employment
in the area. The hope is that, by teaching people these skills, it will help
attract inward investment, supporting everything that Leapfrog and Prof Fabian
Monds are trying to do, particularly in Omagh. 3156. Mr O'Kane: A number of other initiatives
go out from foundation degrees. Our Institute of Lifelong Learning, formerly
the Department of Continuing Education, has been relaunched, since it is now
widely accepted that we are all learning from the cradle to the grave. We are
about to embark on a major continuing professional development (CPD) programme
in the Institute of Lifelong Learning. That programme will attempt to take on
board the needs of industry, business and SMEs in the local economy. We are
running around 200 programmes, and around 4,000 people currently in employment have been through the Northern
Ireland Technology
Centre's management programmes. 3157. Other
key initiatives are currently doing very well. The two main Northern Ireland
universities run the largest teaching company scheme in the UK, which is widely
recognised as being very successful. Indeed, the Government are planning to
invest significantly more resources in view of the success of Northern Ireland's
version of the scheme where graduates go out into local companies. 3158. Two
other initiatives are currently underway, the first being the Northern Ireland Centre for Entrepreneurship,
which was launched about two weeks ago during innovation week. The
concept of undergraduates and postgraduates following modules in entrepreneurship
and innovation is included in that, and will bring substantial benefits to students.
The other initiative is the Higher Education Reach Out to Business in the Community.
We have established a Northern Ireland Industrial Advisory Committee as its
focus. To return to an earlier question, it is made up not only of academics
but, more importantly, industrialists. They are shaping the programme and the
training initiatives we need. 3159. Prof Beatty: It is common, certainly in
the Faculty of Engineering,
where each engineering department has an industrial advisory board.
These boards play a major role in steering the content of the courses in partnership
with the faculty. 3160. Regarding
research, we have had two successful partnerships. Firstly Seagate Technology,
and currently with Nortel Networks. At research level there is significant collaboration,
to produce research-trained graduates. We are fortunate to have a number of industrially
sponsored chairs. DuPont (UK) Ltd sponsors a chair in chemical engineering
and has had a major influence on how chemical engineering is taught. Shorts do the same
for aeronautical engineering, as do Nortel Networks for telecommunications
and Boxmore International plc for the plastics industry. First Trust Bank have
just put forward money in partnership with the Industrial Research and Technology
Unity (IRTU) to establish a chair of innovation. 3161. Mrs Carson: You said that your outreach
centre in Omagh is bringing IT skills into the Omagh area. I am concerned that
we are educating the people in that area only to lose them abroad. You are hoping to attract
industry, but I would be keen that you are working with established industry
to see what their requirements are. The Committee has heard that established industries
want people that are of use to them, which is the direction that we must take.
I am concerned about the Omagh situation and would like to hear more about it. 3162. Prof Cormack: Omagh District Council has
stated that this is what it wants to see developing there. We are trying to
fit in with the aspirations that the people of Omagh have for the town. 3163. Prof Bain: We are trying to co-ordinate
our activity with their development plan. 3164. Mrs Carson: That is a dream, which they
are working towards. I am more interested in your dealings with established
industry. 3165. Mrs Nelis: In paragraph 1.6, you speak
of difficulties with the university losing staff in key areas such as computer
science and electrical engineering, which are crucial to future industrial needs.
You are trying to address this because you state that you see a role for industry.
Will you elaborate on that? What innovative solutions do you have in mind? So
many of your graduates are overseas, and have done quite well. There was a programme
several years ago to try to attract many of the graduates who are in business
in many countries back to Northern Ireland. Would that be one of the innovative
solutions that you might contemplate trying? 3166. Prof Bain: The main retention problem
occurs before people go to university, which is something we may come back to. Many people are reluctantly leaving
Northern Ireland, as I am sure you are aware, to go to university elsewhere.
I am a case in point. If you leave, you may well not come back, which in my
case has not been a great loss to Canada. I do not say that in modesty but simply
because many other people are going, but we have not got the same reciprocal
balance of trade. 3167. Of
those who get educated here the situation is better than one might imagine.
For example, in 1989 to 1999 - taking the fields that have been mentioned -
90% of first degree graduates in electrical and electronic engineering stayed
in Northern Ireland. In the computer and science area, 86% of the first degree
students stayed. Those figures are high - between 85% and 90% of those who studied
computing and electrical engineering stayed. The real leakage out of the system
occurs at the beginning rather than the end because there are not enough university
places to retain everyone who would like to study here. Many do not want to
study here, they prefer to go across the water for a whole range of reasons,
but that is the key shortage. 3168. Mrs Nelis: I was asking about the graduate
drain and staff retention. 3169. Prof Bain: The main issues with staff
retention are facilities and salaries. The problem is that there has been a
tremendous deterioration in academic salaries over the years. That sounds slightly self-serving
but I am not referring to the vice-chancellor's salary; I am referring to the
salaries of key people who could earn a great deal more in certain areas outside
academia. Queen's is addressing this at present; it is conducting an
exercise trying to revise the salary structures. Having bench marked
Queen's against other institutions, we concluded that salaries are below what
the sector is paying generally. Of course, it will only make Queen's competitive
with other universities. Academia is not competitive with private industry. 3170. That
is where the second point comes in, and I had this problem in a big way in a
business school in London. Some academics can never be paid what they could earn in the private
sector. People go into academic life and are prepared to take a differential
because they can pursue their own research and teaching agendas. That
is why research and development is so important. The academics that you really
want to retain - those at the cutting edge of their subjects, bringing in the
innovation and new ideas - do not expect to be paid exactly what they could
get in private industry. If they did they would have gone into private industry.
However, they do expect state of the art facilities and adequate resources to
pursue their research. We must pursue the question of infrastructure in universities
along with the salary question. 3171. Mr O'Kane: Clearly there has been substantial
expansion in areas
such as information and communication technology. However that expansion
has been funded on the cheap because the funding that was made available was
equivalent to the unit price that is attached to a particular student for teaching.
To some extent the issue that the vice-chancellor raised about the necessary
infrastructure required to create the facilities that will attract the academics
to teach the subjects is not available. These facilities cannot be funded at
a level of £4500 per student. That is the key thing that is missing from the
Government's agenda to try to drive up supply in this area, and others of economic
relevance to the region. The Republic identified and put in place a fully
funded strategy that enabled it to respond to the need to create the labour
that would service the expanding software and information and communication
technology industry. 3172. Mr Beggs: Academia seems to be acknowledging the importance
of creating relationships with industry, and Queen's is working to improve that.
However, do you feel that in Northern Ireland - with its mainly small and medium
sized enterprise base - businesses have recognised the contribution that academia
could make to them by helping them to upgrade and improve their competitiveness? 3173. Secondly,
3.4 of your submission states that 100 students are doing a post graduate conversion
course in computing. Whilst welcoming that, does it imply that there is a gap
in our careers guidance? Have you found that some students have been badly advised
at school? What improvements do you think should happen in careers guidance
at secondary level? 3174. Prof Bain: Small and medium sized enterprises
are less aware of what universities can do for them than large companies are.
Ironically they probably have a greater need for university research for the
fairly well known reason that I gave at the beginning- they have less capacity
for generating their own ideas. However, good examples do exist. 3175. As
you will know better than I, the plastics and packaging industry in Northern
Ireland is a key sector and depends heavily on technology-led ideas. I can take
no credit for this but one of my first actions when I came to Queen's almost
four years ago was to launch a polymer processing research centre and a new
chair in polymer processing engineering. A great deal of this research has been
funded from a number of small companies coming together in the plastics industry.
They felt that although they were competitors, they had something to gain from
joining together to sponsor research with Queens in an area where Prof Roy
Crawford was a leading expert. We still have a thriving polymer processing research
centre. Looking at it from the outside, the key was leadership in the form of
a professor at Queen's who was a leader in research and development. He had
a vision as to how he could reach out to these firms. We also had leaders in
the form of Mark and Harold Ennis at Boxmore who felt that they would take the
initiative in bringing their colleagues together in industry. Yes, there are
difficulties but there are examples where these can be overcome to mutual benefit 3176. Prof Cormack: To get the right advice
one first needs to ask the people in secondary schools. The Committee has identified
a number of issues in its preliminary comments on careers educational guidance.
We also have a strong statement from Munster Simms Engineering Limited - I can
see the hand of Alan Lennon behind it. To defend Stranmillis and St Mary's,
they are increasingly encouraging student teachers to enter industrial placements
so that they have some relevant experience that they can bring into schools. 3177. The reason students are taking
masters conversion courses in computer science is that some of them may
have made the wrong choice of first degree, but others may have chosen to do
a non-vocational first-degree course through choice and then decided to do a
vocational course after that. I see nothing wrong with that and I am sure people
in the computer industry might argue that it is a good thing to have a workforce
with diversity of experience. 3178. Mr Beggs: Is there still not a culture
tendency to recommend the professions to students and not look to the world
of industry? 3179. Prof Bain: You can see that tendency to
some extent with parents. You also see it not just with the professions but
also the public sector, which provides a more secure career environment than
the private sector. As a footnote to Prof Cormack's point, I come from the world
of business schools, but I am firmly against the notion that you have vocational
and non-vocational subjects. In a rapidly changing economy the critical things
are basic transferable skills like oral and written communication, numeracy
and social skills. For example, the last person I would choose to take a Masters
of Business Administration (MBA) at London Business School or Queen's would
be someone who has read management as an undergraduate subject. I would prefer
to have a philosopher, an English student, or a modern language student because
you are looking for cross-fertilisation. There is something to be said for having
a broad base with generic transferable skills and then being able to decide
the application. A lot of children do not know what they want to do at 18 -
I did, but I have not been doing it, thank goodness. 3180. Ms McWilliams: You have been here for
four years. In relation to students' communication skills, my own experience
in higher education is that our students are taught how to write, sit exams
and prepare dissertations, but they also learn how to communicate and develop
social skills - which is a different kettle of fish. Can you reflect on what
extent the university has developed those skills? You have described the sort
of graduate that you would like to go in to business. Are we growing such graduates?
Given the concentration on the skills side, as regards engineering, plastics
and IT, how much are you developing the communications side? 3181. Some
of us believe that the peace process has started to develop. You have been here
during that time. Graduates have been sent abroad as part of that process, with American universities
taking a considerable number of graduates from Queen's University. How
many of your programmes allow for that? Have you been able to evaluate and monitor
the outcome of sending those graduates abroad? Will the funding for that continue,
or is it still dependent on American input to the peace process. 3182. The
Committee received a deputation today from the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership
(NIBEP). What is the relationship between the new work placement centre and
that group? 3183. Prof Bain: In my four years here, I have
been slightly disappointed with the lack of interchange. Less than 3% of our
students come from outside Northern Ireland. Apart from one exception, which I will deal
with later, there are not enough exchange students going abroad. We run
two streams of modern languages, which is a shock to me. We have students that
want to study modern languages but do not want to study abroad in their penultimate
year. That is almost a contradiction in terms. 3184. There
is something about Northern Ireland that people really like. They do not want
to leave. Queen's University, and I imagine the same is true of the University
of Ulster, is too Northern Irish - and that is not meant disrespectfully. People
learn from diversity, and we have not got enough of that. We are looking at
developing exchange programmes. We are discussing a three-way exchange between
Trinity University in Dublin, Boston University and Queen's University. I was
at Notre Dame in Illinois a few weeks ago trying to develop that. This is the
real way forward. 3185. Prof Cormack: Last night, the 'Belfast Telegraph' ran
a story about two of our law students who won a competition in New Zealand.
That shows that some students do come through with exceptional communication
skills. 3186. Ms McWilliams: I was thinking about non-law
students. It would be tough for law students who did not have good communication
skills. 3187. Prof Cormack: University teachers recognise
that communications skills are very much a product of the school system. In
a passive school system, students take notes, learn them, sit the exams and
then leave. Those students then go to tutorials at Queen's and expect the lecturer
to tell them what he or she wants them to know. That has actually changed over the
years. Students are becoming much more self-confident and articulate
than when I started at Queen's 30 years ago. 3188. Ms McWilliams: I asked that question for
comparative purposes. In our experience, American graduates or undergraduates
are confidently articulate. We have to ask ourselves what is happening to our
own undergraduates and postgraduates. I know that some undergraduate courses
are building these skills in, because if you cannot explain your own profession
to someone, you are in trouble. 3189. Prof Cormack: You will know about the
Business Enterprise Initiative (BEI) programme where we place students with a number of undergraduate
colleges. That is supported through the generosity of the American churches,
without which it could not be sustained. We hope that they will continue to
be as generous as they have been in the past. A work placement centre is being
established. We have been talking with NIBEP and other interested parties, and
their views will be fed into it. 3190. Mr O'Kane: I want to add one thing. The
medical profession is not well known for its bedside manner skills and the medical
curriculum has changed substantially, to take on board the issues that Ms McWilliams
mentioned. We are running a pilot scheme where third and fourth-year students
are going out to schools to develop their communication skills away from the
hospital and clinical settings. The curriculum has changed so that we will produce
doctors who have social and communication skills, which are essential to the
service that the NHS is trying to provide. 3191. Prof Beatty: To refer back to Ms McWilliams's
point on the placement of people in the community, we run the largest International
Association for the Exchange of Students for Technical Experience (IAESTE)
programme in the UK. Queen's sends 90 young people overseas every summer. Equally,
we have talented young people coming to the Province to work for eight to ten
weeks in our industries in the fields of science and technology, medicine and
agriculture. 3192. You
also mentioned NIBEP, and the university is represented on the board of NIBEP.
At a strategic level, discussions take place between Mr Costello and members
of the growth challenge board, and now with the new centre for competitiveness.
The training and education committee of the competitiveness centre is the obvious
link. 3193. Mr Dallat: It is to be hoped that society
does not have the "nutty professor" at one end of the spectrum and the "village
idiot" at the other. Queen's University has done a lot of work to dispel that
cruel image. You talked about the success of the Republic. Is someone looking
down from the balcony in the North and deciding on the product mix or trying
to steer things in a direction that will satisfy everyone? Will they protect
the creative arts and modern languages and, at the same time, produce the people
needed for industry rather than "oven ready" graduates? What needs to be done
to ensure that the product mix is right? The Assembly respects equality and targeting social
need, and we put the university at the centre of that. 3194. Prof Bain: My academic speciality used
to include manpower planning. If we look back at the attempts at manpower planning
in the '60s and '70s, and the attempts to pick the winning industries, it was
disastrous. I conclude that it is good that we do not have a "Big Brother" or "Big
Sister" looking down, trying to be all knowing and deciding which sectors should
expand or contract. Almost invariably we would get it wrong. The answer is pluralism.
You probably want many initiatives and stimuli that will signal which areas
should be expanded and which should be contracted. 3195. One
area in Queen's academic plan is admission targets - which identifies areas
that should receive more
places from the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training
and Employment. We look at admission trends, employment trends and a range of
intelligence data to help us. Sometimes there is a specific earmarked grant for more students in computing.
I think that it is bad to have centralised planning or direction. 3196. Mr Dallat: I was not proposing the reintroduction of communism. However, employers
are telling us otherwise - good employees cannot count to nine or read
simple labels. That 20% of the population cannot be left aside. There must be
some good ideas in your lifelong learning programmes to address the rights of
those people. 3197. I
am also concerned that the two biggest further education colleges are now independent
because they are big enough. I had better be positive and say that the other
17 do wonderful things. However, there must be some mechanisms that ensures
maximum performance, so that we end up with educated people who contribute in
a wide range of subjects and not just in electronics or whatever. 3198. Prof Bain: The comparative advantage of
universities is not to teach basic literacy or numeracy - other people can do
that much better. However, if I can put it in a nautical way, there are people
who have missed the boat the first time around, maybe even the second time around,
and then manage to achieve a level of education which shows that they would
benefit from a university education. It is our duty - and I was trying to hint
at that through widening access - to ensure that they get on the boat the second
or third time it comes around. 3199. We
have tried to do that - and Prof Cormack has more knowledge of that than I have
- in a number of ways, partly by closer articulation, to use the jargon, with
further education colleges. Students in further education can see how this translates
- if they achieve certain goals they can enter Queen's, the University of Ulster
or elsewhere. We have tried to do that through the "Discovering Queen's"
programme, because it is best to reach people as early as possible. We have
started a programme that ultimately will begin to introduce children
from age 11 onwards -for obvious reasons - leading to summer schools for sixth-formers,
which is to prepare them for Queen's or other institutions in the Province. 3200. Prof Cormack: The Committee will form
its own opinion about 11+ selection and the Gallagher report, and the implications of that are for you
to question. The big concern in the further education sector is a drift
into academic and upper vocational courses. The 20% you talked about were probably
rather badly treated by the formal secondary school system, and we expect further
education colleges to address that. 3201. The Chairperson: The amount of resources
per capita going into higher education has dropped substantially over the last 10 to 15 years.
Which way of boosting funding would be best - increased Government spending,
raising tuition fees, the top-up fee system, a graduate tax, or some
form of deferred contribution? If my reading is accurate, UK universities seem
to be unable to form a consensus among themselves as to the best way forward.
Perhaps it is unfair to ask if there is a Queen's University view. Would you
like to comment on that? 3202. Prof Bain: We should like an increase
from all three sources, but I assume that was not quite what you were asking.
At one level it is very complex, but at another rather simple. There are only
three sources of money for higher education, and you touched on them all. It can either come from
the consumers -the students - the Government, or employers. It occurs
to me now that there
is a fourth source - that of private fundraising, or what we euphemistically
call "development". 3203. As you say, that which comes
from the Government has been declining. Maybe I am conditioned by my North American
background, though I have been here almost 40 years now. I do not believe that
any mass system of higher education can be funded from general taxation, if
one is to expect the politicians levying the taxes to be re-elected and the
quality to be maintained. When I came to the United Kingdom in 1963, we were
educating 9% of the cohort. You can certainly fund such a system from general
taxation, but it is elitist. Once you start getting a participation rate of
44%, as I believe we have in Northern Ireland - or even 35% in the UK as a whole - funding the system from the public purse through taxation while
maintaining quality becomes very difficult. 3204. For
that reason, you must begin looking at private funding, and both Queen's and
the University of
Ulster have recently set up development departments to help try to raise
it. However, there is a limit even to what you can get from that. The conclusion
I come to is that fees are inevitable. In part you must ask those who are going
to benefit to help contribute. Speaking as someone who came from a working-class background
and paid fees to come to university myself, I feel the critical thing
is how you do that. In Northern Ireland - or at least at Queen's, and I am sure
the figures at the University of Ulster are very similar - only 42% of students
pay full fees. The other 58% either pay partial fees or none at all. Perhaps
Mr O'Kane has a breakdown at his fingertips. 3205. Mr O'Kane: Thirty-eight per cent are fully
sponsored, and 20% make a part contribution. 3206. Prof Bain: Basically it is a 60/40 split.
The reason we welcomed the Minister's initiative was that he was targeting the
inevitably scarce resources where they were most needed. I feel that was a very
good thing to do, as I regard free higher education as the most regressive tax
in the system. You have the parents of bus drivers and factory workers subsidising
the children of vice chancellors and doctors. In a regime of limited resources,
I would rather see the money going to those who really need it. I speak not
of Northern Ireland but of any mass system of education when I say that, unless
you take the Italian or French route, where people cannot even get a seat in
lecture theatres because of the numbers, you are inevitably thrown back on some
system of student fees. 3207. It
is critical that those fees do not discourage certain socio-economic groups
from applying. A graduate tax is a better way of doing that than having large
debt. However, one then gets into second order questions. If I had to place
a bet I would say that Britain will have top-up fees in the next five years. 3208. The Chairperson: Thank you for the written
submission and your answers. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 31 May 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Ms McWilliams Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Prof B Norton ) NIBEP Mr B Smart ) 3209. The Chairperson: The representatives of
the Northern Ireland
Business Education Partnership (NIBEP) are welcome to the Committee.
Professor Norton will make a short introduction on which the Committee will
ask questions. 3210. Prof Norton: NIBEP is an umbrella organisation under
the auspices of the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and
Employment and the Department of Education. It promotes and develops links between
business and education and aims at producing an insight into the business world
and at producing a workforce in Northern Ireland capable of competing on the
world stage. It aims at developing the knowledge-based economy. 3211. NIBEP
works through a range of initiatives, and it is founded on the grassroots through
local and area business
education partnerships so that it can address the needs of small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs).
It also aims at addressing local community needs by bringing major investors
to Northern Ireland that will contribute to the economy by providing money for
initiatives. 3212. NIBEP
has a diverse board. The chairman is from Marks & Spencer - and he sends
his apologies for not being here - I am the vice-chairman. Representatives
from education, local authorities, industry and training support NIBEP's activities. 3213. Mr Carrick: What do you mean by "social responsibility"? What
does NIBEP expect from modern businesses? Are there different expectations of small
and medium-sized
enterprises and the larger companies, and how is social responsibility measured across businesses? 3214. Prof Norton: Industry and commerce require
good education and good social order; but they must contribute to them. There
cannot be links between schools and industry and commerce unless representatives from
industry and commerce give of their time to come into schools and participate. 3215. To create a successful economy,
companies must behave with a certain altruism in their local communities and beyond
them. That is easier for larger companies as they have more resources to deploy
and can second people to enterprises. However, it is probably more important
for smaller companies. They are more likely to be the engine of Northern Ireland's
economy in future. This is by no means to disparage multinationals -
we like to get their branches here - but they tend to be transient. The development
of an indigenous knowledge-based economy will be based on small and
medium-sized enterprises, so it is more important that they contribute to forming a society
and an educational system that will service their needs. 3216. The
27 local business education partnerships (BEPs) make a great effort to ensure
that they attract and train local small and medium-sized enterprises. 3217. Mr Smart: There are 27 business education
partnerships throughout the district council areas. Dungannon and Cookstown work
together very closely, and there are two partnerships in Belfast. As
part of our approach
to inclusivity we have a special needs business education partnership
which brings together special schools with a broad range of companies across
the Province as one unit.
As part of our attempts to promote corporate social responsibility we rely heavily
on donors from companies to participate in our programmes. You are quite
right to identify the two distinct areas of large and small companies and the
need for smaller companies to recognise social responsibility and the
economic benefits that can flow from it. 3218. NIBEP works very closely
with the Confederation of British Industry (CBI), the Institute of Directors
and the Northern
Ireland Chamber of Commerce and Industry. They are all represented
on our board as part of our attempts to create a seamless garment of business and
education. More importantly,
we work closely with LEDU in identifying 1,500 growth companies throughout Northern
Ireland. We
intend to take forward two of the main areas of our work, work experience and teacher placements,
so that schoolchildren,
teachers and students in further education colleges experience working
in a small company with all its competing demands. We must work harder to
encourage small and medium-sized enterprises. Larger companies see their
social responsibility by way of the European Foundation for Quality Management (EFQM)
excellence model
with its points system. They also regard it as a very useful way of interacting with the
community and of promoting their company and its products. We must be
mindful of the extent to which we use a variety of companies. 3219. Mr Carrick: What are the main lessons
that you have learned
since 1995 and what obstacles have you experienced in trying to reach
your declared objective? 3220. Mr Smart: The grammar schools have strong
links when getting
donors to take part in mock interviews, providing work experience and opportunities
for teacher placements. 3221. In
more disadvantaged areas such as Dundonald or west Belfast there is a lack of
role models. It is therefore incumbent upon us to ensure that there is a pool
of donors to contribute to all programmes in a wide range of colleges and schools
and across social divisions. It is important that we overcome that. 3222. Our
new business plan intends to establish a database of adequate resources to schools.
More importantly, we intend to develop a mechanism to skew our resources towards
those in TSN areas, to spend money on those young people most in need and to
link companies with them. 3223. Mr Dallat: You stress the need to promote
greater employer
participation in the design and delivery of programmes in higher and
further education. Can this be made more effective? 3224. Prof Norton: That is NIBEP's raison d'être.
The organisation was reconfigured two years ago and it now acts as an umbrella
to all provider bodies in this area, and a great deal of the work has been to effect
that change. We have moved from several organisations being effective
despite the system to their working under an umbrella because of the system. 3225. We
had an interesting time getting charitable organisations to work towards a common
purpose. We have engaged with Business in the Community, Young Enterprise, Industry
Matters/Northern Ireland Science and Technology Regional Organisation (NISTRO)
and Shell LiveWIRE to bring them under a common umbrella for a common purpose.
Our goal is to manifest that in a practical way. It could be accessed
on a web site - all the links would come from the same source. As things stand,
several people might approach the same firm for help for a particular school;
and several people might approach the same school. This can create confusion.
One of the objectives is a one-stop shop to increase effectiveness. 3226. Mr Dallat: You mentioned the Council for
the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA). 3227. Prof Norton: Yes, it is represented on
the board. 3228. Mr Dallat: I must confess, as a former
teacher, that much of what I taught was irrelevant. I know that the CCEA is
now much more sharply focused than in the past. Schools have perhaps fewer opportunities
to choose boards as schools in England or Wales which offer greater likelihood
of simply passing exams with no reference to the content. Are you satisfied
that CCEA now produces relevant syllabi, with particular focus on social education? 3229. Prof Norton: Mr Smart may contradict me,
but I am satisfied that things are moving in the right direction. However, role
models are important. In communities which have suffered generations of unemployment
or underemployment, lack of aspiration can militate against positive things
happening in schools. The approach must be holistic, and the role of one agency
cannot be isolated. 3230. Mr Smart: I do not disagree with that.
NIBEP has a very good relationship with the CCEA. We are represented on the
4-14 curriculum review, and I sit on the 16-19 curriculum review. We have acted
as a conduit in bringing employers to those forums. 3231. There is greater emphasis
on teamwork, employability and communication skills in the 14-19 curriculum review.
There is also emphasis on being able to change the curriculum to allow those
exercises to take place and to reward them. Active, creative and participative
citizenship is also part of the new curriculum. That is an important aspect
of our new dispensation, and it is one which we support. 3232. Equally,
the disapplication of the curriculum allows young people at least two days away
from school. That is for those who choose a vocational route, and those who
require it can be given more attention through smaller class sizes. NIBEP and
the five education and library boards are engaged in a pilot project in which
120 young people in year 12 - fifth form in old money - will have the opportunity
to work with a company to undertake part-NVQ qualifications. That will allow
them to progress to modern apprenticeships when they leave school. The disapplication
of the curriculum and the flexibility that will come with the new 14-19 curriculum
will provide greater opportunities for meaningful work between employers and
educationalists. That also means that there will be greater opportunities
and clear progression routes for young people when they leave school. 3233. Prof Norton: The disapplication of the curriculum has
so far been extremely successful, both in its outcome and also in motivating
those involved. People who had got into a rut in school have blossomed in this
scheme. 3234. Mrs Nelis: I like the concept of NIBEP
and I have attended some of its presentations. I worked on a similar project
in 1977, which was in many ways ahead of its time, in which young people studied
academic subjects in the morning and had careers classes in the afternoon, which
was good. Those classes helped break down the cultural alienation that many
young people experienced then. The education system designated them as failures,
and the situation has not changed. Those people would never have contemplated
going into business or have believed that they could be successful. 3235. The concept works well, especially
with the brighter grammar school pupils. How do you break down the cultural
alienation of young people at secondary school? How will you encourage
and attract them, especially if there is not full employment? In Derry, unemployment
is about 14%. How do we get young people to recognise that their future may
lie in developing a relationship with local businesses? 3236. Prof Norton: The disapplication of the curriculum applies
to secondary schools. That concerns the people responsible for giving this information
to schools. We are trying to address that stage of the process. 3237. It
is more important that NIPEB's remit extends from primary schools to further
education. That brings entrepreneurship and awareness of the business world
to primary schools. It is important to capture children's attention at a young
age. There have been several initiatives through NIBEP and the various supporting
provider bodies that directly motivate and encourage primary schools and industry
to become involved. That is a good example of social responsibility. Those people
will not be working in 10 years' time - or more. One way forward is to become
involved with, contribute to and develop skills in schools and often to provide
school equipment. 3238. Mr Smart: Professor Norton is right to
stress that, until 1995, NIBEP worked exclusively in post-primary schools.
Our remit now extends into primary and further education. We hope to secure
the resources to undertake the considerable work that we are being asked to
do. 3239. The
new NIBEP must develop programmes that will intervene at various stages in the
primary, post-primary and the further education sectors and which will demonstrate
what business is about. Through our providers such as Young Enterprise, Industry
Matters/ NISTRO people get an opportunity to experience entrepreneurship and
enterprise. They also have an opportunity to get involved with functional activities
by way of science and technology and to develop necessary skills such as
teamworking and communication. We must inculcate this in the curriculum,
reward and recognise it. NVQs provide an opportunity as do GNVQs in schools. 3240. Our
school to work programmes link young people with companies in which they spend
time as part of their last two years at school. One in particular is linked
to the training councils in which there are skills shortages. We try to link
schools to workplaces in areas where there are jobs and particular skills shortages
so that companies derive economic benefit while discharging a social responsibility.
We must create the balance. We must also get employers to realise that they
must be there all the time and not only when there are skills shortages. They
must be there in good times and in bad. We are encouraged that more employers
are doing that. 3241. The
recent Northern Ireland skills monitoring survey threw up a very interesting
statistic. When asked "What do you do to overcome skills shortages?" 30% of the 6,000 companies
surveyed replied "Nothing", which is surprising. However, 12% of them
said that they were making more contacts with schools and colleges to overcome
their present skills shortages. Our goal is to get the 30% to follow the example
of the 12%. That would solve many problems. 3242. Prof Norton: NIBEP's work is to talk to schools, industry,
training boards and education and library boards to get a common message across.
It covers the earliest years of primary school, the grammar schools, final year
students going to university and the Irish-medium schools in Northern Ireland.
Its scope is too broad to be covered in a brief answer. 3243. Mr Smart: NIBEP operates a work experience
programme for 70 companies in greater Belfast. We provide 1,500 places every
year for companies such as Bombardier Aerospace Short Brothers plc, the banks,
the health trusts, the Housing Executive and Queen's University. 3244. Last
year NIBEP found work experience placements for 1,200 young people; placements
which have been vetted for health and safety. We ensure that child protection
standards are adhered to, that there is a health and safety policy and that
the young people get a job description and have a mentor during their time with
the company. 3245. The programme is useful and
should be developed. Our business plan states that we want to expand
to 8,000 places by the third year. The programme is costly but cost-effective.
It ensures that when young people go into industry they are not sent to a storeroom
in the bowels of the company to sort nails and screws. We do not want to give
young people that impression of industry. We want them to have an opportunity
to use their skills or to realise that they need certain skills to succeed in
the world of work. We would like to see that area grow, but as always money
is a problem. 3246. The Chairperson: May I clarify that there
are 1,500 places in Belfast and that you want that number raised to 8,000 in
Belfast. 3247. Mr Smart: No, we want to extend the programme thoroughout
Northern Ireland. We have 1,500 places and we normally get a match of about
1,200. For some people the timing is wrong; others agree to attend but do not turn up. There is
an attendance rate of about 80%. 3248. Ms McWilliams: Others have said that there
must be inward investment to attract companies and that our universities should
have a role in identifying skills. Do you work with organisations on inward
investment and do you liaise with the Industrial Development Board (IDB)? Does
it ask about your progress on inward investment? 3249. Is
your relationship with the two Departments fruitful? There was an unsuccessful Executive bid. I
raise that because we recently met a deputation from Newry and Mourne
District Council. One of the deputation said that he was happy with the teacher
placement exercise and that he wanted to do more but was unable to. Is this
a matter for employers or has it to do with funding? 3250. Prof Norton: NIBEP is involved in determining
skills and the economy needed for inward investors. That is different from the
universities. The provision of courses in universities is now directly related
to graduate manpower needs. That may be five to eight years ahead. When dealing
with schools we must look strategically at the curriculum, the emphasis on
different subjects, teacher placements and the industries of which careers
teachers are aware. That is more broadly based and does not attract a particular
inward investor to Northern Ireland, but illustrates the kind of people, workforce
and place that Northern Ireland is. 3251. That
is crucial work, because prosperous economies will be increasingly driven by
the quality of their
workforce. The knowledge-based economy depends on what people know and
not on the coal reserves that used to drive the economy. That level is much
more strategic, and although the role is developing it is not yet clear. That is one of
the many things that NIBEP must do, and that role has not been developed to our satisfaction. 3252. Despite
our chief executive's excellent work it has been difficult to secure the money
necessary to deliver our programmes on time. However, we remain optimistic that
we will get the necessary funding, but it has been a problem. Perhaps having
to deal with two Departments has made matters more difficult. 3253. I
am sure that everyone who comes to the Committee talks about insufficient money
and says that the solution is to throw more money at a problem. However, we know that money
is limited. Nevertheless, creating a certain kind of economy and manpower
does take investment, and we feel that that should be given priority. 3254. Mr Smart: There are two questions about
what type of business education policy there should be. NIBEP believes in encouraging
companies to have a business education policy and to set out a template. Companies
should take people on work experience, teachers on placement and offer work
placements of, perhaps, one day a week over six weeks. They should also
get involved in the development of curriculum-based materials to promote areas
that have skills shortages. Companies wishing to sponsor a school or a classroom
must demonstrate that they have a business education policy. 3255. The
company development programme is a good example. It provides money to companies
which are growing in tradeable services and manufacturing to encourage good
practice and training. As part of their Government grant, companies are asked
to go for Investors In People (IIP) status and they are advised to use NVQs
for training. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and the Assembly could encourage
companies that are in the company development programme and which receive development
grants from the Industrial Research and Technology Unit (IRTU) to ensure that
they have links with schools and colleges. It makes sense to release some taxpayers'
money to provide training in these companies. That should feed back into schools
for their benefit; it should close the gap between education and industry. 3256. Teacher
placements will require teacher cover. The Scottish Executive provides £3·2
million for such placements, and that will give 10% of teachers in all sectors
the opportunity to spend two weeks in industry over the next three years. We
estimate that there are about 100-200 one-week placements for Northern Ireland's
21,000 teachers. Of course, bringing lecturers into industry is very different,
and we have a long way to rectify that. We must give school principals the security
of knowing that if a teacher is on placement there will be someone to cover
the classes. That poses financial problems. 3257. Mrs Carson: A letter in your submission
sets out NIBEP's remit in 1999. One of the items included in it is the need
to foster the development of a bespoke accredited training course for careers
teachers. What progress have you made? You said that 70 companies have 1,200
young people on work experience. How many of them have gone into full-time employment
in the six years that NIBEP has been in operation? 3258. Prof Norton: We do not have detailed statistics
on that. However, programmes that were sampled were successful. The relevance
of work experience to permanent employment is difficult to judge. Programmes
that have encouraged people to go into engineering careers have been
successful - 90% take-up is typical. However, we do not have statistics for
all, as they are not tracked in that way. 3259. Mrs Carson: It would be interesting to
know. Some students regard placements as a day away from academic work. Do you
have a bespoke accredited training course for careers teachers? 3260. Prof Norton: Placements are not a day
out. 3261. Mrs Carson: I did not say that. I said
that some young people regard them as such. I do not want a placement for the
sake of it. A placement should fulfil its original purpose. 3262. Mr Smart: At our pilot project in Craigavon young people
must attend school for three days; they spend a day at a further education college
and a day with their employer. There is a similar scheme in the north-west. 3263. If
students do not attend school on Monday and Tuesday, they do not go to school
on Wednesday or spend
Thursday in the college or Friday with an employer. The students have
a responsibility to ensure that they attend school, as many of them have not
been doing so. They are encouraged to come to school for the three days to study
the normal curriculum; they then attend the further education college and spend
the last day on work placement. There is an 80%-90% improvement in attendance
of the young people who participate in the scheme. 3264. We
are moving from the perception that a placement is a day away from school. Those
young people now realise that they must go to school for the first three days
of the week in order to spend the other two days at college and with the employer.
It is important that they know that they cannot avoid school and then go to
work. We want young people to make the link between work and school. 3265. I
am happy to report that we have agreed a new continuous professional development
programme with the University of Ulster to commence in September. It is supported
by the Belfast Education and Library Board and by the western and southern education
and library boards. A certificate course for teachers will be provided, with
the opportunity to move on to diploma and Master's courses. 3266. NIBEP
will provide economic development modules for it, but it will also place unattached teachers who
are on the in-service course with companies of their choice or in their sectoral
area. NIBEP has also agreed to pay for the teacher cover. That may be premature,
but the commitment has been given. That will not happen until year two. 3267. More
importantly, the north eastern and south eastern boards are engaged in a programme
at Queen's University. It does not have a work placement for teachers, but NIBEP
has agreed to fund teacher cover if such placements are introduced. 3268. We
are well on the way to addressing bespoke training for careers teachers. However,
I want to see it go beyond that to involve all teachers. Careers teachers alone
cannot be expected to inform pupils about opportunities. Science, engineering,
maths and geography teachers must be made aware of the rapid changes
in industry. 3269. Prof Norton: Teachers cannot go into industry
or commerce peripatetically; they must develop an understanding of those industries.
That involves commitment from the industries. It will excite the interest
of those involved.
Mindlessly sorting screws in a forgotten storeroom is not a very interesting
or positive experience. 3270. It
is important that teachers get a profound insight into what a sector does and
that children find something which engages them intellectually. 3271. Mrs Carson: How will you get the money? 3272. Mr Smart: The Executive have competing
priorities. However, if we
are to address skills shortages, the long-term interests of the economy
and areas of social division, and if we are to create a society that provides
equal opportunity for all, the Executive must recognise their responsibility.
The Executive must also recognise that companies contribute a great deal of
support in kind to business education, and if we are to take business education
partnerships seriously we must provide the funding. We must find the money despite
competition for resources; we must argue the case for funding as others do.
Our children are our future, and on the island of Ireland young people are the
majority. We must provide opportunities for their future. 3273. Mr Beggs: NIBEP speaks of encouraging
participation in education, particularly among women. Since 58% of students
in further and higher education are women why must the number of female students
increase? Male, working-class Protestants are the most under-represented group in higher and further education.
How have you encouraged that group to participate in education? 3274. According
to your submission your business plan has not been fully financed. What funding
did you receive last year and how much have you been given this year? What areas
are missing out? You spoke about your 27 partnerships, and we got positive feedback from district
councillors in Newry. Can you give me an update on what you are doing in Larne,
Carrick and Newtownabbey? You are not selling yourselves well enough in those
areas. No one speaks about what you do, and I have not seen anything in the
local press about you. You must provide additional information, but I am happy
to receive that later. 3275. Prof Norton: There is a disproportionately
low participation of inner-city Protestant men in higher education and in some
areas of further education. NIBEP has been developing partnerships through its
provider bodies. For example, there is a partnership between the Boys' Model
School in Belfast, the East Antrim Institute of Further and Higher Education
and the University of Ulster. That partnership is aimed in particular at that
under-represented group; it points out the opportunities and the routes through
further education to higher education; and it has links to major local employers.
It is targeted at a specific group and is grounded in informing the pupils,
the schools and their parents. Interestingly, parents are strongly engaged in
the initiative - they have great aspirations for their children. 3276. We
foster very specifically targeted initiatives with local authorities, schools
and industry; that is one of the strengths of having the local business education
partnership (BEP) network. That initiative involved a Newtownabbey business
education partnership, and although it might not have received much publicity
its work is continuing.
There is a similar initiative in Larne with FG Wilson (Engineering) Ltd.
Practical steps are being taken and that information might address your concerns.
It is important that action is focused on certain areas. 3277. Mr Smart: Our mentoring programme, which
we are piloting in two schools in north Belfast, is another example of encouraging
young people to go to university. We are in partnership with Deloitte &
Touche, which provides six consultants. They act as mentors to young people
who are on the cusp of getting five poor GCSEs or five good GCSEs or who are
on the cusp of getting two or three mediocre A levels rather than three good
A levels, which would allow them to go to university. We are happy to report
that Deloitte & Touche will double the number of consultants and that Belfast
City Council will provide 10 additional people. We hope to expand the programme.
These role models go into schools to assist young people with their future
life choices and their exams. 3278. This year we put in an ambitious
and challenging business plan for finances. We wanted to expand our activity
significantly and we sought an additional £900,000 to spend on programmes for
this year. To date,
£200,000 has been spent on programmes in schools through Industry Matters/NISTRO.
We have an additional £300,000, so we have a shortfall of roughly £600,000
for our activities. As we have a remit letter from two Departments asking
us to set up the organisation and to prepare a business plan for the next three years,
we are disappointed.
However, we are working closely with both Ministers and with officials
to look at other ways of securing this funding for years two and three of the
plan. 3279. Prof Norton: It is correct that there
is strong participation of women in higher and further education. Unfortunately,
- and this is a broad generalisation because the detail is more complicated
- women's participation is not as strong in the vocational higher education
that underpins a knowledge-based economy. That is a problem. Women may have
problems in up-skilling when they return to work after raising a family. There
are matters in women's education that must be addressed, although their priority
is at issue. 3280. Mr Beggs: Do you accept that addressing
the under-representation of working-class Protestant men in further education
should be a priority? What are you doing to redress that? 3281. Prof Norton: The demographic evidence supports that.
Targeting social need is part of NIBEP's strategy to address that problem across
communities. 3282. Mr Beggs: You said that you received an
additional £300,000 and not the £900,000 that you would have liked. Therefore
your funding has not been cut, but it has not been expanded to the preferred
extent, is that correct? 3283. Mr Smart: We now deal with the 1,000 schools
in the primary sector for the first time; we also have 17 colleges in the further
education sector. Our remit has extended considerably across all aspects of
education, but we have only managed to source an additional £300,000. This will
not allow us to carry out our plan in full or address many of the issues that
you raise in your questions. 3284. Prof Norton: We must benchmark the resources for this
area to achieve a knowledge-based economy in future. We can measure our shortfall
against Scotland, which has taken a strong lead in producing an entrepreneurial
economy. We should measure our resources against the Scots' to get an idea of
how much we need in order to deliver our programme successfully. 3285. The Chairperson: Do the Scottish Executive
spend more on business and education partnerships? 3286. Mr Smart: Teacher placements at £3·2 million
are a good benchmark. 3287. Mr Beggs: Can you make a comparison with
England and Wales as well? After all, Scotland gets much more money to spend
on education. 3288. Prof Norton: Perhaps that is the nature of policy decisions
which you must advise on. 3289. Mr Beggs: Have you a benchmark with England and Wales? How
do you make a comparison? 3290. Mr Smart: The education business partnerships
in England are being completely restructured. The local enterprise companies
(LECs) and the training and enterprise councils (TECs) have been disbanded and
are being reorganised. About £25 million is available for business education
partnerships alone, aside from the mainstream programmes of teacher placement
and other activity. 3291. We
have strong links with Scotland and have been to see the work being done there.
Scotland is also reorganising. The 26 education business partnerships in Scotland
are being brought together with the Careers Service and Scottish Enterprise
to establish a model similar to ours, which they will deliver. They have about
£5 million for business education partnerships, aside from the £3·2 million
for teacher placements. We can get the figures for you. 3292. We
have three business education partnerships in Larne, Carrick and Newtownabbey.
Two are quite vibrant; we must work on the other one. We also have a part-time
worker. Newtownabbey District Council has been very forthcoming and has provided
£10,000 for activities in local schools. We spend a great deal of time and effort working with
the enterprise agencies and economic development officers to get meagre resources
from councils for this activity. It is a dreadful waste of our resources continually
having to go round the 26 district councils seeking £2,000 here or £3,000 there.
The effort sometimes
outweighs the money that we get. 3293. The Chairperson: You highlighted the shortfall in Government spending on business
education partnerships. Are businesses in the private sector philanthropic? I
have just returned from the USA where I looked at economic and educational
development. I got the impression that the USA's big companies are much more philanthropic.
Is it because of the tax system, because Government spending is lower or it
is due to American culture? 3294. Prof Norton: All those reasons are part
of the explanation. There are fiscal incentives, but tradition and social recognition also
play a role. Endowments, for example, are part of the culture. It is a different
situation and comparisons are not useful. The largest firms in Northern
Ireland have given substantial commitments to strategic initiatives which bear
their name. 3295. Unfortunately - or perhaps
fortunately - small and medium-sized enterprises in Northern Ireland
do not have the wherewithal to do that. The number of local companies which
can make such financial commitments is limited. Training boards and training institutions bringing
smaller companies together is a recent welcome development. NIBEP encourages
this and we hope to address the small and medium-sized enterprises in the future. 3296. The Chairperson: Your presentation has
been extremely helpful. The Committee recognises the importance of your work
and wishes you well in the future. Thank you. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Thursday 21 June 2001 Members present: Dr Birnie (Chairperson) Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson) Mr Beggs Mr Byrne Mrs Carson Mr Dallat Mr Hay Mr R Hutchinson Mrs Nelis Witnesses: Dr R Davison ) Department of Higher and Further
Mrs C Bell )
Education, Training and Employment
3297. The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee
I welcome Dr Robson Davison, deputy secretary in the Department, and Mrs Catherine Bell, assistant secretary
in Further Education
and Learning Policy Division. Thank you for the written brief. Following
your presentation the Committee members will ask you some questions. 3298. Mrs C Bell: There were significant changes
in the further education sector during the 1990s. The number of colleges was
reduced from 26 to 17, and a major change came about in 1998 when the colleges
moved from the control of the education and library boards and became incorporated,
responsible to governing bodies. That was a significant change, with
governors having control of the assets, staffing and budgets. The remainder of the United Kingdom
achieved incorporated status almost five years previously. 3299. There
are about 24,000 full-time students in further education, the majority of whom
are 16- to 19- year-olds,
and there are around 65,000 part-time students, the majority of whom
are aged over 19 years. Since 1997-98 there has been an increase of about 18%
in mature students, and we would
like to see a further increase in part-time students. 3300. The comprehensive spending review in 1998 brought
an increase in resources of about 52% from the 1997-98 budget to around £138 million
in 2000-01. 3301. The strategic objectives for the further education sector
can be set out in three broad areas - supporting the economy, widening access
and increasing participation, and improving quality and raising standards. 3302. With
regard to supporting the economy, the strategic objectives came from the Further
Education (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 and were reinforced in the 'Lifelong Learning' document
in 1999 and 'Strategy 2010', and supported more recently in the Programme
for Government. In
the supporting the economy objective we have focused the colleges on
six priority skill areas - construction, computing, hospitality and catering,
manufacturing engineering, electronics, and software engineering. We have been
involved in developing centres of excellence in these six priority skill areas
and have put considerable resources into that. We have funded colleges for restructuring
so that their curriculum and staffing meet the needs of the economy.
We have also funded them for a skills initiative which not only supports the
economy but also widens access to people who previously would not have benefited
from further education. The fund is focused on vocational areas at level two
and level three. 3303. We
are currently working on an initiative aimed at encouraging colleges to work
with and support small and
medium-sized enterprises; this is a major priority. In the past three years we have
invested around £10 million in an information communication technology
(ICT) strategy, not only to ensure that we have the correct infrastructure,
with every college having one industry- standard PC to five full-time equivalent students,
but also to ensure that they are connected to the SuperJANET, which is
the joint academic network, so that students can benefit from speed and access
to the Internet. 3304. Part
of the strategy has been to ensure that lecturers can use ICT in teaching and learning. However,
it is not just for lecturers to develop word processing and database skills
but for them to use that in the classroom. The final part of the ICT strategy is
to ensure that there are sufficient curriculum materials. 3305. The last area I want to mention under supporting the economy is
the lecturers into industry initiative. In the past three years we have invested
around £300,000 each year to give lecturers up to 12 weeks in industry.
We focused on engineering, hospitality and catering. Last year we extended this also to software engineering,
and this year we will also include construction. Since 1998 there has been a
45% increase in enrolments in the six priority skill areas, which is good news
for supporting the economy. 3306. With regard to widening access,
this is as important as supporting the economy. We are currently developing
a strategy for basic skills because we want to ensure that all people benefit
from the job opportunities that a knowledge-based economy may bring, and we
want to ensure that
people can enhance the quality of their lives. 3307. We
have also introduced a partnership fund so that colleges are encouraged to work
alongside the community, district councils, chambers of commerce, employers,
schools and training organisations in their areas. Funding is provided to build
up innovative ways to
reach out to people who have not previously benefited from education. We have increased
the funding, and we hope to increase it further for disabled access so
that people with
disabilities can also benefit from education. 3308. The big factors in improving quality and raising standards
have been the introduction and extension of individualised student learning
agreements. We require colleges to develop an individual contract between students
and their course tutor. The aim is to match their programme of study to their
abilities and interests to achieve the best possible outcome. We also supported
the introduction of Curriculum 2000 so that young people can not only take broad,
balanced programmes but they can also gain credit for individual units. We support
the Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation Transfer System (NICATS) so
that people will be rewarded for what they study, not just for completion of
a course. 3309. You
have heard evidence from the Education and Training Inspectorate about the self-evaluation
process. We have been encouraging that process so that colleges take responsibility
for their own quality, using indicators that are standard across the sector. 3310. Finally,
where do we want to see the further education sector going, and how have we
been pushing it along? We have come a long way in three years. We must keep
it in perspective. The incorporated bodies have only existed for three years.
They are much more focused on supporting the economy, reaching out and widening
access on the social inclusion agenda and improving quality. We see the further
education sector as
a regional economic driver which serves the community - particularly
small and medium-sized enterprises - and contributes to the social inclusion
agenda through widening participation. Last but not least, we see it making
efficient and effective use of resources. 3311. Mr Carrick: You mentioned the effective
use of resources and a 52% increase in funding in 1998, which was presumably
linked to the new structures. How much of that increased funding went towards
the administration of the 17 different colleges, as opposed to delivery of the
service to young people? I want to evaluate decentralisation from the aspect
of providing value
for money. How successful has the local management approach to further
education colleges been? Have areas been identified where centralised control
would be more cost effective and of greater benefit to students? When will the
results of the three years of monitoring and evaluation be available? 3312. Mrs C Bell: When the Department is allocating
the budget, some
of it is top sliced for earmarked funds. Over the past few years we have earmarked a substantial
amount of money. We see that as the way by which the Department can determine
where the college should go - for example, we earmarked money for the centres
of excellence, the access initiative, the partnership funds and
the ICT strategy. We take a significant amount from the budget and put
it into funds that direct the college in certain ways. 3313. The
recurrent budget is based on the number of students at the college. This is
worked out on the basis of a student-powered unit of resource, which is the
number of students in the initial recruitment phase, the learning phase and from outcome.
We give the colleges an amount of money for recruitment, the learning phase
and, finally, the outcome phase. There are weightings as well, according to
vocational areas, social need or whether it is basic education provision, and
so on, but we have control of the funding. 3314. You
also asked when we would be carrying out an evaluation of the comprehensive
spending review that generated the money in 1998-99. We are about to start the
evaluation of the various aspects of the three strategic objectives. We will
look at how successful colleges have been in supporting the economy, and if
the resources which we put
into the centres of excellence has been value for money. We will do that
through the inspectorate and also through working with the employers who were
involved initially in determining the centres of excellence. We will do a similar evaluation on the
ICT strategy and the various other strategies. In the next 12 months we will
have evaluated almost all of the strategies that we have put in place. 3315. Dr Davison: You also asked about the amount
of the increased funding that has gone to administration. We fund the colleges
by block grant, and it would be a matter for each individual college to determine,
within the context of the block grant, how it distributes that funding. We could
not put a universal figure on what percentage has gone to administration. We
are conscious that there has been an increase in administration because colleges'
governing bodies are responsible for a range of functions for which they were
not responsible in the past. The education and library boards would have carried
that through prior to incorporation, but even then on a limited basis. We cannot
put a figure on it, but our guess would be that the increased amount for administration
has not been excessive. It has matched the degree of the increase of responsibility
to the colleges. 3316. On
centralised control, which is an interesting question, Mrs Bell mentioned the
earmarked funds. We have particular strategic objectives, and we have used earmarked
funds to target very closely those specific objectives. Where we have determined that there
is a need for a more centralised view, we have used a funding lever as a means of getting
what the Department requires. 3317. Mr Carrick: Will the evaluation address
the cost effectiveness
of having 17 individual administrative cost centres and the possibility
of reducing them in number? I know this is getting back to the old system again,
but we would like to know the answer. 3318. Dr Davison: We monitor very closely the general costs
and the funding flows across the sector. We have no specific intention of addressing
that particular issue at this time. This depends on where you are coming from
- if it is not 17, is it five, or eight, or nine, or ten? We are convinced that
the range of functions must be covered. Perhaps you might want that range of
functions covered in a different way, but at the moment we monitor on an individual
college basis. 3319. Mrs C Bell: We have been encouraging colleges to collaborate
and make best use of resources, which is why we have a number of funds. College
lecturers and resources can be used across colleges so that they can focus on
a particular vocational area where colleges have expertise. We have been
using them for collaboration and partnerships. 3320. Mr Carrick: "Collaboration" is a key word. 3321. Mrs Carson: In many of our inquiry sessions
we have heard a lot of criticism from industry about the lack of careers advice.
What do you think could be done to improve relationships with the Training and
Employment Agency, different colleges and careers teachers in schools giving
careers advice? We have had criticism from industry that they are not getting
young people prepared for industry. You have said a great deal about colleges doing
what they want in their courses, and that is fine: they might be excellent
courses, but are they relevant to industry and its needs? 3322. Last week we had visitors
from Wales. They came up with Careers Wales, and they have a one-stop
shop. Have you considered anything like that in Northern Ireland? 3323. Mrs C Bell: The wider careers provision
is not my remit: I do not have responsibility for careers within the Department.
We have been working with the further education colleges and pushing them in
the direction of the individualised student learning agreement, so that when
a student comes through the door there is time spent with that student, not
just identifying interests and needs, but also trying to open up a range of career opportunities.
That learning agreement is monitored throughout the student's programme
in the college. 3324. Before that, another area which we believe that
colleges should be looking at - and some of them are more successful than others
- is working in conjunction with the schools. There has been some flexibility
in the curriculum at Key Stage 4, and students aged 14 and 15 - the old
fourth form and fifth form - are going into colleges and doing vocational programmes
and opening their minds to the range of vocational programmes. The fear that
we have, and something that we would like to see addressed - and we think there
is great potential to address - is that at present the focus at Key Stage 4
is on young people going to college who are either disaffected with an academic
curriculum, demotivated or young people who are not of high academic ability.
We would like to see an opportunity for the more able young people to see the
range of careers available to them by having some of their curriculum within
the further education sector, possibly doing a few units
of IT, engineering, construction, in any of the six priority areas. 3325. We have focused the colleges on the big priority
areas and have put considerable resources into these. We are looking at the
16 to 19 curriculum in the Department of Higher and Further Education,
Training and Employment
to see what employers expect of young people when they finish their programme
in a college. It is not just vocational skills, it is the broader skills of
working as part of
a team: being entrepreneurial; having good communication skills; being
able to use numbers effectively; and using ICT. We are working at different
levels, but there is a broader issue in relation to careers that needs to be
addressed. The review of careers has just finished. 3326. Dr Davison: The relevance of provision
to industry is a big issue. Ahead of the rest of the United Kingdom, we have identified,
through the skills initiative, six areas that the Training and Employment
Agency says are relevant to economic growth. Those areas are ICT; electronics;
software engineering; construction; tourism and hospitality; and the manufacturing
industry. We have put a skills initiative in place as an incentive to
the colleges to recruit into those areas that are of relevance to the local
economy. That incentive funding has generated a considerable increase in enrolments
in those areas. 3327. We
have supported that by taking a policy line that tries to identify centres of
excellence across the sector. The first time that we employed this policy we
set the hurdle very high, and we ended up with six colleges identified as centres
of excellence in the key skill areas. In addition to operating on the individual
student front, we operate at institution level in order to make sure that enrolments
are related to the needs that local industry and institutions perceive. That
is the direction in which we are attempting to move policy. 3328. Mrs Carson: I cannot remember the name
of the college or the industry that was concerned, but one set of witnesses said that
the industrialists, having received a poor reply from the college, had
set up their own programme. The lecturers thought that they would not be able
to deliver results in that area, but when the programme was set up, with the industry as the impetus,
they had a 100% success rate. There is a lot to learn from what the industrialists
need. 3329. Mrs C Bell: That is why we have been so
pleased with the lecturers into industry initiative. Not only has it enhanced
the skills of the lecturers and brought them up to date, but it has also developed
strong relationships between employers and colleges. The employers are now saying
to us that they would like to get involved in working in the college, and we
are currently looking at ways to broker that. 3330. Dr Davison: In the context of the economic
relevance of further education provision, which is one of our strategic objectives,
we see two continua at work. One continuum is at institutional level. Some institutions
have bought into the policy completely and see
that their focus should be on serving local economic needs; some institutions,
further down the continuum, have not reached that stage yet but are on their
way there. And there are some that are a bit further down the continuum still
- I will not name names. 3331. Sometimes
you can spot the continuum even within a college. Some schools or departments
in the same college
will be very clued in to the local industrial or business picture while
some are on their way there or only just getting things off the ground. There
is a process at work here whereby the sector engages ever more with local business
and industry. At our end, we are trying to identify what other mechanisms are
required in order to apply the system across the board and get everybody working
at the same level. However, the process will take time. 3332. Mrs C Bell: We must remember that the process involves
enabling young people, particularly people aged 16 to 19, to cope with life
as well as the demands of industry so that, apart from anything else, they are
well prepared to be good citizens. 3333. The Chairperson: I have five names on
the list of people who wish to ask questions, and we only have about 20 minutes
of this session left. Could Members therefore keep their questions as concise
as possible. 3334. Mr Hay: I would like to return to a matter
that has been a contentious point with the Committee for a while - the difficulty
of trying to extract information from 17 different colleges. All give the information
in different formats - for example, it is difficult to get information from
some colleges concerning those full- time, part-time or non-educational staff who are
on sick leave. In further and higher education colleges there does not
seem to be a streamlining of this information. Most people see colleges - whether
we like it or not - as public bodies accountable to Government. 3335. As
a Committee, we find it increasingly difficult to get information, on whatever subject. That is
something that the Department and the Assembly need to get a handle on.
It must be streamlined across the Province. There seemed to be a difficulty in getting the information
that we asked for on a number of issues, such as on the inquiry into education
and training for industry. What are your thoughts on trying to develop a situation
where that information should be to hand, whether it relates to accountancy,
financial matters, whatever it is? It is currently not there. 3336. Mrs C Bell: With regard to collecting information, we
have been working with the colleges to standardise the Department's and the
inspectorate's requirements for information from colleges. Over many years, information has
been produced in one format for use in the college, the Department asks for
financial or statistical information, and the inspectorate also asks for information about
recruitment, retention and performance. 3337. We
had a small working group whereby all parties identified what their needs were.
It took a long time to get down to looking at what we all need - what the Department
needs for funding and accountability and what the inspectorate needs for looking
at the efficiency and the quality of the provision. We also had to consider
the information the institutes need to monitor and improve the performance of
their organisation. We have now established the requirements, but it has to
be owned by the sector. A business case has been put together that is about
to go to the Department of Finance and Personnel because we need a management
information system that is robust across the sector, and this will be incredibly
difficult. A college is a complex organisation; there are courses that
last 10 weeks, some which
last the whole year and others that cover two years. 3338. We
are also in the process, with NICATS, of unitising the curriculum. We must ensure
that whatever system we set up to collect the information is able to accommodate
the changes that are in train. I agree that it is difficult at times to get
information in a standard form across the sector. We are currently working with
them on that. 3339. Mr Beggs: I welcome the fact that you
are moving toward a standardised information system. The question that arises
is why was it not there from the start? It is an obvious need. What is the function
of the Department having created these courses if it did not exist from the
start? I hope that it is brought together urgently, because I perceive an urgent
need for it. 3340. Mrs Bell: We are currently working on
it. 3341. Dr Davison: The Further Education (Northern
Ireland) Order 1997 states that we have the powers to seek information, and we
get information in standardised forms in the areas that we originally
identified as necessary. You are proposing to extend the range of information
that we get. 3342. Mr Hay: I would have thought that any
college could straightforwardly tell you, for example, how many full-time and
part-time staff are on sick leave. We cannot even get that information. 3343. Dr Davison: I am very disappointed about
that. Under the Order, colleges are responsible for their own staff, and they
absolutely ought to know. If the issue is extending and standardising the information, the
powers are there to enable us to do that. 3344. Mr Beggs: Indeed, the Committee could
get that information if it wanted. 3345. Northern Ireland has some of the lowest levels
of literacy in Western countries. As regards widening access and increasing
participation, how will the Department ensure that it will apply to all areas?
My own constituency,
for example, has no permanent college, although there is a temporary
site in Larne. Some additional education funds, through Proteus (NI) Ltd and
the Education Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA), have been particularly
targeted at drawing people into education through the community sector, but
that does not put money in on the ground. How is the Department proactively
assisting the identification of areas of deprivation, where such educational
need arises? How will it assist people to get into education, which is the route
out of some of the difficulties? 3346. Mrs C Bell: The basic skills unit has
advised the Minister on standards, curriculum, tests and qualifications for
teachers and tutors. The Department is currently preparing the draft strategy,
and the last thing
that we need is to write a strategy that targets only a small percentage
of the population. We must ensure that all people benefit from the basic skills
strategy. 3347. The
overarching aim will be to ensure that all of our people have the skills in communication, application
of numbers and information technology to avail of the new jobs that will come.
It should also enhance their quality of life, because improving basic skills
should not just be for functional purposes. 3348. The
Department's approach will target not just literacy and numeracy because few
people will buy into that. However, we must ensure that no matter what programmes
are put in place - whether they are New Deal, Jobskills, through a further education
college or through a statutory or non-statutory body - there is a component
to take account of basic skills. It starts at the very beginning by looking
at the early screening so that there is some indication and proper diagnosis
of people's weaknesses to develop a programme built on their interests or vocational
needs. 3349. One
of the biggest shocks from the international adult literacy survey was the high
percentage of people with
basic skills deficiencies who are actually employed. We must therefore work with
the unions and employers. We have already started that and asked the basic skills
unit to look
at innovative approaches to delivering basic skills in the workplace and the
community and to funding the programmes. The colleges, of course, are central
to this. 3350. Mr Beggs: How are you proactively chasing
areas where there has been no previous expenditure in basic education? How are
you proactively helping local communities that are only establishing
structures? 3351. Dr Davison: The strategy that we are preparing
for adult basic education will try to ensure that we have full coverage. The
main route will be through a combination of statutory and non-statutory provision
where we try to link the two closely together. A key part of that will be what
comes from the community. 3352. The
Department can try to work the different elements into place, but the community must be willing
to engage with it and to ensure that the various community elements are known
and can be addressed. Sitting in Adelaide House, it is not easy to know what
they are, and who in the community can fulfil the appropriate roles. In working
through the strategy we will want to get wide coverage. The figures show that
this is a very important issue. 3353. Mr Dallat: We will try not to shoot the
messengers because I have high regard for both of you. There was a meal made
of the fact that several of the colleges do not know where their staff are,
and that worries me. If they do not know where the staff are, what do they know
about the pupils? What do they know about the people who are not the pupils
and should be the pupils? 3354. Your
bid to tackle literacy and numeracy was not granted in full. In view of the
statistics now available, surely there is an urgent need to increase that. While
it may be true that somebody does not buy into literacy and numeracy alone,
I know of one company that would be very happy if their employees could add
up to nine. I can see you are working with the colleges, coercing them, but
is it not time to reel them in and to say to them "There has been a Dark Age
during direct rule when nobody
asked serious questions about what you were doing, but the whole economy
has changed now, and we are near full employment. We have 250,000 people with
serious learning difficulties. You can no longer sit on the other side of the
table and talk at us because we are in the driving seat - we are the bosses."?
Every Department of the Assembly is screaming from the rooftops about the problems.
Is it not time to take off the kid gloves? 3355. I
must balance that by saying that over the years, when we had a very divisive
education system, the technical schools have been a safety net for many working-class people, and
I would never take that away from them. That is why I feel particularly
emotional that through incorporation and the independence that they developed,
they abused that and ignored the outside world. I know of instances where they
would not send courses out to the community to teach women basic skills. I get
the impression that you are still having difficulty persuading these people
that that world has gone past, that it failed us. 3356. Mrs C Bell: I would not say that we are
having difficulty. The Lifelong Learning strategy set a really clear direction for the colleges
for the first time. Certainly when it was written there were two criticisms.
Employers said it was a community document and the community said it was too
strongly focused on the economy. Therefore I think we got it right because it
is incumbent on our
colleges to support both. In stretching out to the community, the challenge
for the college, and for us, is to ensure that colleges meet this need. It is
not just to meet the basic skills need. They will be able to do that, but the
big challenge will be to encourage people to progress up the ladder. When we
look at community provision outside of the colleges, we find that people are
willing to engage initially in learning but few are prepared to go up to level
one, two or three - that is the challenge. Rather than talk about a deficit
model of 260,000 adults with poor literacy and numeracy skills, which we will
have to address, the basic skills strategy is ensuring that we all have our
weaknesses addressed
through whatever means available. It also takes account of the fact that these skills
will always increase as the demands from industry and life increase. 3357. Part
of the difficulty in our colleges has been that basic skills have always had
low status. We are now determined to change that, to give it a status so that
it is not just going to be the higher education courses that colleges aspire
to teach but also to make provision right across the board. 3358. Mrs Nelis: I want to ask about the collaboration
fund. It seems that that is a model to aspire to for the future. I see that
you intend to allocate £600,000 over two years to strengthen the concept of
partnerships involving the colleges and the major employers, the district councils
and the chambers of commerce. Those are certainly the types of partnerships
that we want to see established to drive up the demand for local learning and
to provide the infrastructure for small and medium-sized enterprises. If you
divide the allocation among the 17 colleges, it works out at roughly £30,000
per college. It seems that the programme is very ambitious but that it is not
being resourced properly. Perhaps you need to look at that aspect, because the
project has great potential. 3359. How
do you intend to evaluate the initiative? You have mentioned some skills, but
other skills could be added with the help of the collaboration fund. I am thinking
of civic skills. 3360. Mrs C Bell: The collaboration fund was intended to encourage
collaboration, but the students involved are funded as well. The bodies are
funded to make the links, but they also get funding for the student places that
are generated. The fund was not intended just to forge partnerships with employers.
It was a local fund to help to engage chambers of commerce and local councils.
There are other funds, such as the access initiative, through which we
have given colleges money to look at innovative ways of drawing people into
learning. 3361. You
asked about evaluation. We have already started to evaluate the fund. Over the last 18 months,
the inspectorate has been working in a number of colleges to look at
how they have been making links. Some colleges used the fund to focus on making
partnerships with employers.
Others looked
at developing partnerships with community groups. This year all of them
are looking at partnerships in the broader sense, which is what we intend them
to do. The collaboration fund and the access initiative have both been successful
in forging links among the colleges, the community and local businesses. 3362. Mr Byrne: The common thread seems to be
the lack of a common set of procedures and practices for the further education
colleges. The material supplied is very revealing, particularly in respect of
the financial performance of colleges. The question must be why some colleges
vary so much from the norm. What does the Department do in relation to asking
a college to restructure itself to become more financially viable? 3363. There
is a great absence of statistical information on outcomes of students and trainees.
We need performance indicators that show clear outcomes. A college might be
successful in recruiting 1,000 students to get its full-time equivalent numbers
right. However, by the end of the year only 600 might still be there. The financial
position will look very good, but there is a terrible leakage in the numbers.
I would like some statistics on that. 3364. There
is another question that the Department must address. Does it want further education
colleges to be community colleges, higher education colleges or colleges with
a broad mix of training, basic education and professional education? The latter
category would include, for example, the Institute of Management and Association
of Accounting Technicians courses. 3365. Does
the Department intend to take a common approach to making colleges publicly
accountable, because there is a growing need for that? Regardless of how good
college governors are they do not see the full picture. There is a need for
stronger public accountability by professionals. 3366. Dr Davison: Colleges are open to inspection
by the Education and Training Inspectorate in everything that they do. Under the Order
the inspectorate can carry out efficiency reviews on any college that is experiencing
difficulties. The colleges are accountable to the Department, and the
Department monitors their finances on a regular basis. The Department works
with colleges to help them overcome their difficulties. That has been done with
some colleges since incorporation occurred. The Department brought in support
and advice for the colleges and helped them to deal with their difficulties,
but ultimately the college and the governing body own the issue and have to
deal with it. 3367. Therefore
the colleges are publicly accountable and the Department works with those that are experiencing
difficulties. From material that Mr Byrne has sought previously I know that
he is aware of at least one of those cases where the Department has done that.
Therefore colleges are publicly accountable. 3368. Mrs C Bell: With regard to key performance
indicators, the Department publishes enrolments and success rates. Up until
now retention numbers have not been published, and this year there is work going
on to look at retention. The inspectorate always looked at retention. It has
three key indicators - enrolment, retention and success. That is the benchmark.
In many instances, particularly in further education colleges - and it is also
true of higher education - people do not finish within the two years or one
year of the allotted programme. Depending on their personal circumstances they may take
three years. 3369. There needs to be sophisticated
measures to look at retention. However, the Department needs to have
indicators of enrolments, retention and success. The Department receives information
from the inspectorate. The inspectorate publishes the information with
the inspection reports, but it is hoped that the Department will soon be able
to report on the performances of all 17 colleges. 3370. Dr Davison: We already publish the financial
information to the 17 colleges. A previous Minister introduced school league
tables but decided not to take that route with further education. Given the
complexity of that sector compared to schools, he did not think that it would
be helpful. 3371. Mr
Byrne asked about the direction in which we are going. There have been historical
differences in the way things have developed. In England there are sixth-form
colleges, general further education colleges and adult education colleges. Various kinds of
provision make up further education. In the Republic of Ireland in the
late 1980s the further education sector was transformed into a higher education
sector with the rebadging
of institutes of technology. Vocational colleges were developed, and
now there is an emerging set of what we would recognise as further education provision. So they
have gone down a different route. 3372. Northern
Ireland has chosen the route of general further education colleges, and in the
1990s we added on to that some higher education provision to try to widen access
to higher education to a wider range of people across the Province. 3373. So
that is the route we have gone down. Given the scale of Northern Ireland and the resources involved,
would we want to disentangle that and set up separate institutions? It is an
interesting question which could lead to a debate. These are very big questions. 3374. The Chairperson: My first question picks
up on a point Mr Byrne made. We have tried to examine the 1999-2000 accounts
as far as possible without an accountancy background. They are difficult to interpret,
so we would be grateful
for guidance from the Department on a number of cases, but on two in
particular. I understand that the aim is to have a current ratio of 1·5:1 to
2·5: 1. Using the current ratios, Castlereagh has for two years been below that
target range, so perhaps that raises issues. Conversely, Newry and Armagh have
been well above the 2·5:1 ratio. Are there special circumstances in both cases? 3375. The
other question has come up repeatedly in discussion. This Committee has sought,
with difficulty, to acquire from the 17 colleges consistent details on staffing
turnover, absenteeism, sick leave, suspension and so forth. As far as you can
judge, is your overall impression that staff morale in further education is
satisfactory? What would be the Department's feeling about the relevant pay
level for further education lecturers? The Minister of Finance referred in his
pre-Budget statement to the likelihood of an increase that was higher than that
previously expected. 3376. Dr Davison: Concerning the accounts, I
am not sure that I want to discuss in detail the position of any individual
college. 3377. The Chairperson: We could go into closed
session. 3378. Dr Davison: If you wished, we could bring
our accountant to go through the accounts on a general basis. It is a complex
area. I would wish that to be in closed session, if possible, because individual cases
would be discussed,
and it is not fair to do that in open session. 3379. We
have moved very quickly in Northern Ireland - unlike in the rest of the UK -
to operating the funding mechanism in the same way across the whole sector.
Prior to incorporation the mechanism operated differently across the five board
areas from a different base. The base and funding mechanisms are now the same
across all 17 colleges. The differences are the diversity of provision and the
size. Those are factors which play into whether one college picks up more resources
than another. One of the two colleges you mentioned is much bigger than average,
and the other is much smaller. One of them has a peculiar mix of provision which
is unlike most of the others. There are both general and specific reasons in
play. 3380. Mrs C Bell: When the Education and Training Inspectorate carries out inspections,
we depend on it to find out about staff morale and staffing, because it gets
close to the staff and to what is happening. We are conscious that pay for further
education lecturers has fallen behind those in the school sector, and we are
aware that the unions and management are discussing a pay increase. They, and
we, want to link that increase to performance because we
want to continue to promote a professional body. Our lecturers are professional,
and until this year ours was the only part of the United Kingdom whose lecturers
were professionally trained through the University of Ulster.
That training has gone a long way to promote the profession, and we continually
look at the needs of the colleges and the lecturers. 3381. We
need to look quickly at professional training for part-time staff so that it
is not just full-time staff who benefit. The pay negotiations are going on at
the moment, and we hope that there will be an early settlement to report. 3382. The Chairperson: Thank you very much,
and thank you for the written brief. That was extremely useful. We have a lot
to reflect on, and that will be important in our overall considerations. We
aim to complete that by the autumn. |
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