The Northern Ireland Assembly - Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry

Members Present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Rev Robert Coulter
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witness:
Mr J Simpson

The Chairperson: We are delighted to have John Simpson here to give us an overview on issues relevant to the inquiry which we are now beginning on the training system, its impact on the economy and the effects of university research on the economy. A biography of John is in your packs, and, in a sense, I do not need to say any more; it commends him massively.

You are very welcome. Do you want to say an extended piece at the start or do you want to go straight into questions?

Mr Simpson: May I just enter a small paragraph?

The Chairperson: No problem, go ahead.

Mr Simpson: First, thank you for the invitation. I also want to thank you for arranging this meeting today at this time. As you know, there are other pressures on all of us, and it is fortunate that we were able to end up with this particular timing if we are to do something before the end of the month.

The issue that you have set out to examine is, of course, a very significant one. I do not think I would be understating its importance if I said that it is probably the most important issue which will affect the economic progress of Northern Ireland in the next decade. I know there are many issues which are important, but over the last couple of years I have come more and more to the conclusion that the extra needs on the education and training structure are such that if we do not tackle them urgently, we will actually frustrate the process of economic development in a way that none of us would intend. It is a highly significant issue. Your debate is taking place in circumstances where the economy is doing reasonably well.

The usual comments about the nature of the economy have changed. Who would have thought that we would have been talking about levels of unemployment, particularly short-term unemployment, which are now nearly as low as we would expect in a prospering economy anywhere in western Europe? That means that something has changed. You may be tempted to conclude that if things are going that well why not leave them alone and allow the trends to continue? On that I have to say that I do not think the trends will continue if we leave everything alone. I suspect that we have been reasonably successful in the recent past because we are a low-cost, low-wage, relatively unskilled developing part of the UK economy. Those options are closing down.

The attractiveness of Northern Ireland as a low-cost centre with people available at relatively competitive wage rates is not something that will continue, nor is it something we would wish to continue. We therefore have to get into a position where we are talking about higher value added; we are talking about a higher proportion of people available looking to contribute to that, having a greater range of skills. If that is not our agreed consensual approach then we need to debate further and see why not, because it certainly comes through very strongly to me.

There are other features which apparently contradict the story of a relatively successful economy. Look at income levels in farming; look at what is happening to food processing in terms of competitiveness and profit margins - it is very worrying - and look at what is happening to the textiles and clothing sector, where in the last five to six years we have probably lost a quarter of the employment. We are also likely to go on losing employment in the building sector in its present shape. Then come to heavy engineering and you know the questions of whether or not we will continue in shipbuilding and what form of shipbuilding. All of those you could put together and say "Why are you talking about success when you can list that catalogue of problems?" I think this does illustrate what some people would call a two-tier economy. I don't think it is as distinct as that, but we have a number of issues which are going against us as well as going for us.

10.

We have a number of successful parts of the economy. We have, for the moment, the construction sector doing well; we have the software and ICT sector doing extremely well despite one small hiccup last week, which I think merely illustrates that there are risks in all of these things. The general message is that it is an expanding sector and has enormous potential.

11.

There are sectors where we need more skilled people. In the last decade we tended to think of the public sector's employing fewer and fewer people. The usual assessment is that the numbers will reduce further, because, all being well, we will employ fewer people on law-and-order type matters. A very significant change that is now happening is that resources are being made available to allow a real expansion in health and education, and the level of that real expansion will mean that we will need more skilled people.

12.

There are indeed critical issues as to whether we have got the right levels of training for particular professions related to health care, but not so much for education. We therefore need to look to expansion. We do have, at the moment, growing evidence of skill shortages, not necessarily at degree level, but across the vocational sectors. I think that is a critical issue which your Committee is bound to debate further as you develop this inquiry.

13.

You have set yourselves a very broad ranging inquiry, extremely broad ranging and I suspect that once you define for yourselves what you think the parameters of that debate are, you will probably wish to focus more closely on some issues which will emerge from the discussions that you are about to have.

14.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much, John, that was very useful. Are you happy to take some questions?

15.

Mr Simpson: Yes.

16.

Mr J Kelly: Good morning, John. It is nice to have you here. I have followed your political, social and economic comments over the years with great interest. I think you have made a great contribution to political and economic life in general for the community. I was interested in your comments about how we have come from being an unskilled economy to being a very highly skilled economy down the years. What do you think we should be doing in seeking finance to replace declining industries such as the shipyard, aircraft and linen industries or to put in place a new agenda?

17.

Also, I know it is unrelated, but I think that education is a very important part of our lives, and I would like your comments on how you feel about the funding of education.

18.

Mr Simpson: I am not sure that I will be able to answer all aspects of that to your satisfaction. You can come back with supplementaries, but the thesis focuses on the way in which the skills mix that we have been relying on is changing. We still have, and we are enhancing the skills mix we need in the aerospace sector. That is one of the plus features of what is going on around us. It is quite significant that Bombardier has felt it a critical enough issue to set up its own training centre. It sometimes refers to its own "university training centre" in Interpoint. A big firm can set up this sort of specialised training centre and gear a whole organisation to it. That sort of option is not open to the firm that employs 100 or 200 people, and, therefore, the public sector education and training systems have to do more.

19.

The way in which skill demands are changing means that we need a very much more developed set of ideas as to how the education and training sector responds. I do not want you, at the end of my discussion, to think that all I am interested in doing is training people for jobs. I am interested in training people for jobs, but I do know the education system serves a much wider purpose.

20.

You will read in the various documents, time and time again, the statement that the education and training framework must take more account of the needs of the economy, and we have the education interests sitting on the other side trying to respond. The actual mechanisms for response are, to be polite about them, woeful. If we are going to have the opportunity to develop higher value-added jobs, they are going to need higher skill training, and we are actually going to have to put ourselves in the position where we do not nit-pick about whether we are training the right numbers to the nearest 10 or 20. We have to take a radical look at this for an up and coming generation, and, indeed, some of the adults who are prepared to engage in this as well. We need to provide the opportunities and a series of incentives for more people to become involved. We need a big game plan, and we need to tackle it coherently.

21.

The statements in 'Strategy 2010' on what the education and training sector should do are fine in principle, but they stopped where they should begin. The timetable that they give is unrealistic. No arrangements have been made to make it happen, and there is no clear statement of who has to do it.

22.

Mr J Kelly: Thank you very much.

23.

Mr Dallat: John, delighted to meet you. Many of the jobs in the future will continue to be provided by small businesses where the resources and the opportunities for in-house training are often inadequate. What incentives could be used for the benefits of both the small employers and their employees which would ensure the prosperity of this important sector of our economy and would, at the same time, add to the skills which you quite rightly highlight?

24.

Mr Simpson: It is an important issue. We all know that we have only about 200 or 300 businesses in Northern Ireland which employ more than 200 people. We are predominantly a small-and medium-sized employment economy. Part of the answer to your question has to be that we have to have a clear idea as to what the education and training system should do for everybody. I exaggerate slightly to make the point, but there is a temptation to say that if employers want skilled people why do they not train them? They are the ones who are going to make the profits, they are the ones who know what they need. Let us give people the basic 3 R's and they become available in the labour market and the employers can develop their particular needs.

25.

That, I want to suggest, is not adequate. First, it is no longer the 3 R's; do we refer to the 4 R's when we talk about information technology, even though there is no R in ICT? The basic competence for a teenager that we now would like to see has changed. We need to have a clearer concept of what the education and training system should offer. Then employers will adapt the skills of people they recruit to their particular needs. I have no doubt about that. But what we need to do is in the further education sector. This is where I think the greatest weaknesses are. In the further education sector we need more coherence, because this sector is providing for many thousands of younger people who are in their late teens, early 20s, and many of those are the employees that are becoming available to those small businesses.

26.

We have to ask small businesses if they are able to recruit people with the basic competences that they need. The short answer to that must be at the moment that no, they are not able to recruit the competencies which they need.

27.

This Committee may have occasion to look at the outcome of the literacy survey that was done recently. I do not know whether Members have looked at it already, but we congratulate ourselves on the high proportion of young people who go through the A Level route to use a shorthand. We only too infrequently acknowledge that a very high proportion of the younger people who get to the position of needing to find jobs and look after themselves actually have very little in terms of qualifications - it is too high a proportion. Equally within that there is a very high proportion for whom the education system is failing the 3 Rs never mind the fourth R.

28.

The education and training system should develop its concept of generic skills, meaning both education and vocational ability, to the point where people are as well prepared for as wide a variety of types of employment as is possible. There is a point at which a skill is specific to an individual employer and when that is so, the employer has to help as well.

29.

Can I use that to add one further thought? If Northern Ireland is to get its momentum going in the next decade, one of the most important incentives to new enterprises, either coming in or being born from within, is that the people that are ready for those enterprises should be well prepared for them. Consequently, it can be an important industrial incentive that we actually say to companies coming in "Instead of relying on you doing all the training we, as a society, will do it." Instead of talking about capital grants and marketing awards we should be at least significantly contributing to anticipating the skill needs of these businesses.

30.

The provision for that does exist, the Training and Employment Agency has its company development plan. We should spend less on capital assistance and more on human skill development.

31.

Mr Dallat: Thank you.

32.

Ms McWilliams: Thank you. You are very welcome, John. It is good to be working with you again. One of the things that strikes me is that in terms of Northern Ireland and our education system, and this is a very big issue that we are going to be looking at, is the distinction that we make between academic and vocational skills. Have you knowledge of how it is done elsewhere? Certainly the Germanic model is one that people are putting forward and talking about and constantly the argument is, and you have made it yourself, that there is a growing level of shortages in the vocational sector. Obviously we have success stories, but they are not sufficiently successful in terms of applying what is needed out there in terms of demand and what we have got in supply. How do you think we could address that, and who best do you think we should look at in terms of what may be good practice elsewhere, which might be possible, not to transport, but to amend or incorporate in some way into our own system?

33.

Mr Simpson: Thank you for that very difficult question. There is not an easy model to pull off the shelf to cope with our needs. We have to distinguish between what the education system provides for people at the point of recruitment and what is expected from employers once they have done the recruiting and what they will do inside the organisation. We have to find our own way, almost because of the last point I was making, which is that we have to use the advanced vocational training system and, taking it further than firms might expect elsewhere in Europe, we have to develop it and use it as a selling point.

34.

There is, at the moment, a model which is trying to put vocational skills into the same structure as academic developments. I am much more inclined to the view that, whereas there is a need for an acceptance of an equivalence of status, and you and I would not be at odds on that, I think there is also the need to avoid trying to merge the two as if they actually did the same thing.

35.

The more that we try to merge these, the more we will do damage. We have to realise the diversity of purpose and that the notion of recognition is fine but the notion of equivalence to the point of saying that is the same as - it is not the same as, and it will not be. I have not got a ready answer, Monica, to your question on particular models. We do need to re-examine how far we can create a system which gives the basic range of qualifications to everybody getting to the age of 18 or 19. At the moment we tend to think that after the age of 16, other than those who are going to higher levels of education, they can find their own way. That clearly is inappropriate. We ought to know what is happening, why it is happening and to know how we influence it in terms of further education. I feel that we do not have an adequate feel or influence of what the answer is.

36.

May I enter, Mr Chairman, the caveat that although I serve as the Vice-Chairman of the consultative committee on further education, I speak this morning on a purely personal basis.

37.

The Chairperson: This is a crucial question. Do you feel that perhaps we have gone too far in terms of increasing the age participation going to university? We are oriented very much towards the American model. We now have roughly 45% (and the Government wants to raise this to 50%) of 18-to 21-year-olds going to higher education, and to some extent, as you were hinting at earlier, people are going through further education as a step to higher education. Have we gone too far, and are there problems?

38.

Mr Simpson: A subjective opinion from an external observer: there is a danger that we will go too far if we have not done so already. I think the reciprocal of your question really is this: if we had an adequate appreciation of what should be happening in further education, the bias in the system would be removed which says the academic ladder is the better and more successful route whereas on this other ladder you are not sure whether the rungs are really safe. We have to have this broader ladder to the further education sector in which young people can then make an informed choice.

39.

At the moment I would describe the academic ladder as the one that has an automatic escalator. If you can do A Levels, you do A Levels, and if you get the right grades you go on and use them, because why would you not; what else would you do? I do not know if it is controversial to take that view. In the room there are those who are better informed on this than I might be, but I recall, in the days when I was dealing with undergraduates in their early years, asking myself at the end of their first year, were they wise to let the system suck them in? It gives you an answer when I use the phrase "suck them in", does it not? I used to reckon there were probably in any large group, about 10% of those teenagers who, if they had seen and had been attracted by a wider perspective of what was available, might not have done what they were doing. Of course, they can get very bored then.

40.

Rev Robert Coulter: Some years ago when I was teaching in further education I was asked to take on a class of fabrication engineers, trainees, some of whom could not spell their middle name. We were having a general inspection and the Inspector criticised that particular class very heavily because I had not been teaching them Shakespeare. Allied to that is the Victorian attitude in many of our grammar schools where young people are directed specifically to the professions rather than to industry, and the problem between the upper echelons of excellence in education, thinking only of the empirical attitude to the syllabus rather than the essential, individual needs. How do we begin to redress that balance?

41.

Mr Simpson: I offer one short answer. What we are offering, beyond getting the basics of an education system in place, has to be relevant to the person and to his well-being for his working career as well as everything else. Suppose you had decided to start with a quotation from Hamlet each day, would it have been relevant, and would it have helped them? They might have remembered the quotation, but it would not necessarily have done what you were looking for. I suspect that I would be condemned for being the philistine on this. I would answer your question by saying: test all the things that we are thinking about in terms of relevance both to the person in leading a full life and to his leading a life which gives him the possibility of a full income. For those who keep saying that we should stop emphasising this economic aspect of education, I have to say that I am not going to deny the wider discussion, but I do have to emphasise that the economic aspect is the area in which we are failing.

42.

Mrs Nelis: Good morning, Mr Simpson. You spoke about the state of the Northern Ireland economy; you talked about the decline of the traditional industries - farming, textiles and heavy engineering, and then you looked at the present and what might be the future. I represent Foyle, and we have the highest long-term unemployment. To bring us up to the Northern Ireland average we need to create 12,000 jobs in five years - we have lost 3,000 in the last two, most of those are around the traditional industries. I met yesterday with a factory of 130 workers who have been on short-term working since February. It does not look as if this factory is going to survive either. Most of them are working for about £50 a week, if you take the combination of what they are entitled to on state benefits and short-term working.

43.

It is absolutely essential that we look at the future of our young people and how education meets their needs in terms of training and vocational training. I taught literacy in 1974, and we had a problem then. We now have computers, and we still have a problem. There is something to be said for the state of our education system when our children go into school quite literate at five years old and come out after two levels of education with a very poor command of the English language. I think that is an ongoing problem that no one has addressed.

44.

However, I want to talk in terms of age and, in particular, about skilling and retraining of people in the traditional industries who are losing their jobs by the thousand - how can education meet that? I am thinking in terms of the traditional industries, where you talk about decline, and the public sector reduction in law and order. How are we going to meet the training needs of those people. I talked to the Local Enterprise and Development Unit (LEDU) about retraining a factory in Derry that closed two years ago and of the 170 workers LEDU only picked up on 40 for reskilling and retraining. I think that is a very important question that needs to be addressed and is side lined.

45.

Mr Simpson: I am not going to disagree with the thrust of the way in which your argument is developing at all, but I begin to hope that there are answers. Take your particular location, you have one of the most ambitious and go-ahead colleges of further education in Northern Ireland, which, as you know, has got its PFI building programme underway.

46.

You illustrate a couple of points that I would like to underscore. First, there is a significant need, and we must not lose sight of it, for a system which copes with adults where job change becomes unavoidable or necessary. To some extent we will try to avoid the problem, because we will have new policies for textiles and clothing, but we cannot behave like King Canute. Is there the right provision for adults? This takes you down the route, which I am sure you will want to explore further with the Department, of what are we doing about lifelong learning, the Department's phrase, which is synonymous with the problem you and I are exploring. Obviously, that has to be a fairly significant dimension in the further education sector and, to some extent, the higher education sector. Do not ask people to make too big a jump, the provision area where you can cope with nearly all abilities is in further education.

47.

You asked what we should be doing. There is a tendency to say: "Let us think about it." To take a hi-tech example, what does Seagate need to get people to come to work for it, or what is it that some other firm needs? In a situation where large numbers of people are losing their jobs because of industrial change, I do not think we will be able to design tailor-made retraining programmes specific to new skills for a particular new firm. I think what we have to do is to offer generic opportunities.

48.

Some of you are involved in training for particular groups and giving them new opportunities. You can offer them, for example, a basic introduction to information technology and use of computers and give them new skills. You may say "We do not know whom you will work for, but you will be better equipped, and you will be challenged."

49.

Too often the question is posed as "We, in further education, want to know from you, the business community, what you want us to do." I think that is the search at the end of the rainbow. In our education and vocational training we have to say that here are skills and aptitudes, and if we make them available and encourage people to adapt, they will then be better placed to fit into the way in which the job market will change.

50.

My suggestion to the further education sector would be "Do not tell me that you have been down the road to talk to the main employers; you just want to provide what they want. Ask yourselves the question: is the experience of what they want informing your judgment, but are you then offering a width of preparation which is going to be useful in other ways?" Some of them will be able to say that so and so will be able to work for Seagate, and that so and so will be able to go and work for an IT company. Fine, but do not ask for that; do not make that the formula which constrains what you do.

51.

Mr Byrne: Welcome, John. It is good to see you. You have made reference to some of the themes that have been developing, in particular this almost shoe horning everybody down the academic A Level route. The Chairman made reference to the fact that we have been increasing the percentage of 18-year olds going on to higher education. That is largely governed by the common curriculum which is rather academically based. In other words, every pupil in Northern Ireland, whether in secondary or grammar, are all following the common curriculum. I believe that does not meet the needs of all of our students. In the past we did have what I would call practical technology subjects - woodwork, metalwork and, in particular, technical drawing, but they are no longer there.

52.

There was a certain type of pupil that was not book centred but had practical application, and very often he could develop competency skills from that of a generic kind, which, I think, did serve the industry needs in the past. Have you any comment about the common curriculum in relation to that? In the past we also had apprenticeships which were maybe between three years and five years. They were very specific and very narrowly focused, but they did have a quality of proofing about them that had a mixture of theory and practical, and they were tested largely through City and Guilds. I think that anyone that did them would have gained a lot. There are big shortages, in my opinion, at technician level. Sometimes I think that the general view that IT training is the be all and end all is mistaken.

53.

As someone who was 20 years in FE, in my opinion there is too much talk about being an IT operator at a very superficial level, or the other extreme of software engineering where you have to be a high flyer, but there is a vast range in between which requires practical knowledge and application alongside basic competencies of numeracy and literacy. As I see it, we are hitting big bottlenecks in that practical technician level. If you talk to many firms they say that they cannot get people that have that competency.

54.

We now have modern apprenticeships and New Deal. Have you any sort of qualitative assessment to make of them? I agree that we have had people of low skills and a low wage economy, but in the future, to compete as a big region economy, we have to offer some competitive advantage. It is no longer going be one of low skill and low wage because modern industry requires a much higher level of skilling, more value added. I wanted to hear a little bit more about that.

55.

Mr Simpson: All I have to say on your final point is yes, I agree.

56.

Mr Byrne: And regarding a qualitative assessment?

57.

Mr Simpson: The earlier part of your comment in terms of ensuring that people gain a range of skills and that they are verified is important. I think that the old apprenticeship system is giving way, but it must not give way in a fashion which takes us away from validation and competence testing. Whether that emerges now as NVQs, which is the likelihood, or whether it draws an emphasis on part-time release so that validation takes place say in an FE college, all of that is something we want to underpin. The FE colleges do have the competence to gain the confidence of employers who are offering part-time release. That, I think, is a critical issue.

58.

In terms of the whole range of issues that you have raised including generic competence, those are the issues that are underpinning the philosophy that I see emerging. If I can broaden your question slightly, I think there is an uncertainty as to how we are going to influence the validation processes and content of what FE institutions are doing.

59.

I was involved in a discussion about this the other day. The FE colleges at the moment are now incorporated and are freestanding. They manage their own budgets and have a profit and loss account. That releases in them a series of incentives to make sure that they use their funds to get results which are in keeping with what their college programme suggests. I know there are some challenges, but these need to be done fundamentally. We need an overall college development programme which fits the general needs of Northern Ireland. Where is the composite which brings together the college development plans? To which the honourable answer is: "The colleges are doing their own investment plan; it is not our business as the Department to try to make that into a macro view of what is happening." For example, although you were making an interesting comment about ICT, there is a major argument already taking place, which will go public shortly, about whether Northern Ireland is making adequate provision for ICT skills at different levels.

60.

There is a view developing that we are doing enough and that we do not need to do any more. Another view, which I support, is that we are well short of what we should do, but we need the debates, and we need to be well informed about the outcome, because if we are underproviding, we are actually saying we will put a bottleneck into the development of that sector which is why it is an important issue. What if you say to the Department "Tell me, what contribution are the colleges making to provision for information technology? They do not have a process that builds this up as a programme." The study that has been done actually shows - and this is an interesting side effect - that a very large number of those who go to the FE colleges to develop skills go on to university. You may say that this is not a bad thing, but it does mean that the number coming out and available for what I would call technical support, as opposed to professionally coming out at another level, is actually much lower than you would expect. Your point, and I am using it with my particular emphasis in this area, is that we actually do need to get a hold on the totality of what the colleges are doing. If we treat them as 17 colleges, each free to do what it wants to do, responding to its own market place, then we would suspect that there will be a tendency to do the easiest thing, which is to keep on doing what you are already doing, providing you get high enough figures of enrolments. That is not the right challenge for further education.

61.

Mr Byrne: I agree there has to be a co-ordination of the skills vocational remit. There is going to be a merging of the training centres which will mean that there will have to be some sort of emphasis again on practical skills, particularly construction-related skills. However, could you comment further on these modern apprenticeships and the New Deal which we have heard so much about, but about which I have serious concerns regarding quality?

62.

Mr Simpson: In terms of the modern apprenticeship and New Deal, I think it is early days, but what I have seen suggests that the first results are not meeting the original aspirations. We will all want to watch that carefully. I do not know quite what the conclusions will be, and we need to wait for some more evidence before we decide whether that type of process is working effectively. I picked up one of the T & EA brochures the other day. It reads very well as a glossy, but the evidence that is coming out now is that it is not quite working out as they intended. I think we will take another day and have another look at it.

63.

Ms McWilliams: May I ask a supplementary on the New Deal? One of the issues that has concerned us is the return of New Deal funding, and the Minister of Finance has just responded to me in writing confirming this. I think it was approximately £7 million this year, and we will continue to lose money out of that programme, in terms of it's going back to the Exchequer.

64.

Mr Simpson: Going back, but not using it?

65.

Ms McWilliams: Yes.

66.

The Chairperson: We have also had correspondence from the DHFETE Minister on that subject, and his assurance is that there has been no reallocation of New Deal money to other areas of his departmental budget and also that any money not used in any year will roll on into the next.

67.

`Ms McWilliams: I am aware, Mr Chairman, that it was not reallocated to others. My question is on the New Deal, that the bid that went in was too high.

68.

Mr Simpson: The original targets were very ambitious, and you are confirming this.

69.

Mr Carrick: John, may I just tease out your statement regarding the provision of basic skills training up to a certain level in the generic sense? Probably beyond that there would be more specialised training depending on which industry, or niche of industry, you go into. On a practical level, how do you see the interfacing between education, training and industry? Do you see formal mechanisms being developed so that we can have effective linkages, so that we can have a seamless supply through education and training into industry? This would enable us to have joined-up Government in education, particularly in higher and further education? Are we identifying particular individual talents and skills early enough? Does this have a role in the generic approach that you referred to?

70.

Because of social or domestic circumstances, some children found themselves having to leave school at 16. Is the system robust enough and flexible enough to pick up those young people? Sometimes I feel that further education is for the middle class and that higher education may be for a mixture of middle and upper class. Is the working class properly factored into the system, and is it getting a fair crack of the whip? At community level, how are we going to feed into this joined up system?

71.

Mr Simpson: There are three levels to the issues that you are raising; one was mentioned briefly, and I put it to one side. There is the question of the links between industry, education and training at the level which asks if individuals get the right introduction and the right experience. That takes us into the activities of Industry Matters and similar organisations with which I have been involved, and it takes you into the activities of the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnerships (NIBEP) and the local versions. Those are useful in their own setting, but they are mainly orientated to practical experience, to people giving placements and offering one-to-one experience. That is fine. It is a very difficult thing to do, because the number of employers who can actually co-operate is quite small relative to the possible demand. You tend to look at the big employers and say "We have hundreds of people who need a placement", but not all of them want to co-operate, and not all of them can co-operate. It is a major issue at a practical level.

72.

The second level is the issue of what we do for individuals enhancing their ability, to let them mature and develop. That, I think, is an issue for the local community, the local colleges and the better understanding of what is going on, because you are focusing on individuals and how you recognise talent and give encouragement. Then you go to the third level, which is the macro level, the link between business, further education and training. At the moment we do not have an adequate system. Every now and again you read about one side or the other saying "We must do better on this."

73.

We commend bridging the gap between industry, Government and the further education sector. The trouble is that we have not actually managed to get on with it. What are we asking businesses to do? If we had business leaders in the room and we said that we were going to build a bridge between business, education and training, we would be saying to them: "Do not tell us particularly what your firm needs, although that must inform your judgment, but come in with an appreciation of your experience of business and industry and the way skills needs are changing." You say to the further education sector "Come into the room and tell us what you are doing at the moment and tell us what you can do to respond to this process." That is not an issue for one college with the local business community; it is an issue which needs a broader base. It is one of the major issues for the 17 further education colleges, but they need to have better co-ordination of what they are doing. Part of that co-ordination will be that they will be better informed by what business trends are, and they will then take the initiative to bring about change in each of their colleges. One of the worries is that further education colleges are very inclined to do next year what they did last year, because that is the easiest thing to do. We have to move more quickly. Management at the college level becomes critical. It may have to make two or three people redundant in order to free up resources to employ more people. That is a challenge that has to be faced and cannot be avoided. In fact, there are issues in terms of recruiting the right people to teach in further education. We expect people to take very challenging training roles in further education and we are modest about the rate at which they are paid. Maybe that is not within our remit, but if we want to bring about change to that sector, there are issues there.

74.

May I put in an extra thought? Until recently we had the education division at Rathgael and the training division down in Adelaide Street. Logically that distinction never made a lot of sense. The new Department has to solve that problem. Some of the manifestations have been that the training aspect of the Training & Employment Agency has actually acted to fill gaps by its own actions in a way that it is pragmatic, and although it is doing something, the right answer in structural terms would have been for the training assessment made in the T & EA to be phased into the FE sector and for the answer to emerge in terms of the contribution of the FE sector.

75.

You will be aware of the proposals that the T& EA financed to help meet some of the software industry skills. It developed the Rapid Advancement Programme. It has evolved as if the further education sector did not have any contribution to make and it ought to have, it ought to be a key player. Instead we are going to commercial providers and saying "Please give us bids to provide this training, and the T & EA will finance it."

76.

Mr Carrick: I agree that we need this coherence, co-ordination and collaboration, and I can think of three Departments which that cuts across at the moment. Do you see a sort of streamlined mechanism to try to put this collaboration in place?

77.

Mr Simpson: The Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment has to take the lead, and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment has to play its role. One of the problems emerging from 'Strategy 2010' is that it is very much a DETI perspective of life. They said of the further education sector that it needs to have a better relationship with industry and to be put on a timetable of, I think, 18 months. That was easy to say; that is a broad view from the high ground. 'Strategy 2010' is not a strategy, and it does not answer the questions in the area you are dealing with. It poses them, and there are issues for you to take further forward.

78.

Mr Beggs: There seems to be general agreement that there is almost too much focus on the academic side and not enough recognition in society for those who go into industry or take up technical skills or become a bricklayer, or whatever craft skill. Would you agree that one of the reasons for that is that society generally is not recognising the entrepreneurial spirit and the opportunities which some of those skills can further develop? Everybody is thinking academically and not reflecting the importance that would be placed on technical skills in Europe or America, where, certainly in America, the enterprise culture is a driving force, and people recognise success, gained through whichever means, not just by an academic route? How can we go about trying to change society through the FE colleges so that people give the appropriate recognition and subsequent encouragement to their children to take those technical routes?

79.

I picked up locally that there are technical shortages in some of the smaller firms, even a lack of people applying for jobs like training in bricklaying. We hear that in Dublin bricklayers are earning more than stockbrokers on occasions. That should be a job which should be highly valued, which obviously it is, as a highly-skilled job with high remuneration. Yet for some reason people are not being encouraged to go into the job, because it is maybe wet or dirty, but there is a great opportunity there for people to earn good money and potentially go on and do things for themselves. What do you see our being able to do in the further education sector to try to change that? Would you agree that we must try to take a bias towards that technical craft route again?

80.

Mr Simpson: Broadly yes, but, saving the superior judgment of your Chairman, the university process does tend to prepare people to be part of large organisations and for the professions. The entrepreneurial aspect of universities, particularly on the social sciences, tends to be relatively scarce, rather more maybe with the engineering side. In fact, the most successful entrepreneurs who can start small and grow tend to be people who have not done PhDs; they tend to be people who have worked with their hands and developed skills and come from what you would call a blue-collar background.

81.

I remember doing a study of where the senior managers went from a particular firm that closed in Antrim. You may suggest that those highly-qualified people should be setting up new businesses, but it was not in their minds to do it. They had been trained to be contributors to a team management in a large organisation and were frightened of trying to set themselves up in business. Of course there are exceptions, I know, but in general that does not happen. Northern Ireland does not have a good record in taking business risks. In fact, when you look at the creation and loss of small firms, we are much more inclined to hold on to existing businesses, but we have a very low proportion, compared to the other regions, of new businesses setting up here. That says something of an inherently small conservative society.

82.

We did a review of the experience of firms in the information technology industry and asked them about the qualities of the people that had been recruited in the last year. The qualities were reviewed in terms of their technical competence, their personal skills, their enthusiasm and their business awareness. The feature in which they scored lowest, you have already guessed, was business awareness, which is quite remarkable. The average HND entrant to an ICT type industry was a very low scorer. We used the scoring system which meant that four was pretty good, three was marginal, two was poor and one was very poor. Of the group, the HND people scored 2·5, people coming as ICT graduates came at 2·5 and the non-ICT graduates came with a 2·3, in other words, they were even less aware. It does bear out your point that business awareness, the notion of an enterprise culture, is going to be very hard to put in.

83.

How do you put the incentive to develop your own business and to get business awareness and enterprise culture into undergraduates? It is quite difficult; it does not fit the circumstances in which you are giving them challenges in terms of academic ideas. If I were taking that particular group and said to them "I want you all to be enterprising and think of setting up your own businesses", they would look at me and say "What did you do? It is all very well your telling us what to do, but you did not do it." It is one of the most fundamental problems. I only underscore the fact that this business of enterprise culture is something that we need to keep restating to ourselves and gradually find better methods of putting it into the education structure.

84.

Mr Beggs: Just to come back, very briefly, to the point I was making, even at the FE college level there is almost the same problem. There is a direction just to get their degree and be a member of a big organisation, rather than to adopt skills and look at least as an option at a small business or go out and get further experience before leaving.

85.

Mr Simpson: I will give you one other of my experiences. I chair a company known as the Emerging Business Trust, which is available to offer loan capital, and now we are venturing into equity. We are venturing into equity provision to help small businesses in Northern Ireland. I think we have over 200 small businesses on our books. These are people who, by and large, are coming at the enterprise culture with the right dynamic, the right momentum, and a few of them have higher technical qualifications. Many of them are coming at it because they have found a method to develop their own businesses. There is a section of the community that do want to develop their own businesses. From the Emerging Business Trust we are tapping into that. We have not advertised ourselves heavily, because we could not cope with this if it suddenly became too large a flow, but for the moment, the evidence is that we are meeting a demand. Obviously it is a bit more of a risk for us, because with a loan you have got security on assets, with equity you are playing a slightly different game.

86.

I signed cheques earlier this week for three equity participation elements in small businesses in which, to give you an order of magnitude, the sums in terms of equity were between £25,000 and £50,000.

87.

Mrs Nelis: Mr Simpson, I just want to go back and ask your opinion of traditional industries. Do you believe they have been totally abandoned or are going to be abandoned, or is there a way that some of them can be saved? It seems to me that 'Strategy 2010' seems to be directed at IT, and I think that there has to be some marriage. You cannot abandon the traditional industries entirely. Some European countries who went through this before us have actually turned some of the traditional industries around and made them quite successful.

88.

Mr Simpson: One of the best aspects of that document is the review of the different sectors. Of course, what has come across has been those that are doing well and gaining interest, but the review of what you call the "traditional sectors" is worth noting. It may be depressing, but it is not defeatist. There are significant problems with the making of clothing in large volume plants where, in fact, what has kept them alive has been large numbers of people doing semi-skilled processing in very large volumes.

89.

This is exactly what the Far East and North Africa can now do, and in terms of world trade, they are cheaper. The shirt industry has always been able to argue, reasonably persuasively, that the up-market design and high quality market will not shift, because that is a different set of issues. I am quite interested in the fact that the London Department of Trade has now taken an initiative in terms of the textiles and clothing industry for the whole of the UK, and the local version of this is trying to find out where the strengths would be and what should be reinforced, because it is not a question of just abandoning the sector. There are going to be serious continuing problems, and clothing is going to be the major casualty area. The food processing sector, for example, is going through a wobble, but it will not disappear. High-volume, low-quality clothing will be a contracting market, and that is one of the things we have to face. Where does the success of Ben Sherman come in today's circumstances when all around were going one way? What was it that the new owner brought to the party that has given him such a successful firm? He brought production, combining production locally with production from the Far East and North Africa. Has he got something in his formula that we ought to know more about? The Growth Challenge has got a textile sector - the Northern Ireland Textile and Apparel Association (NITA) - and it is examining this, and that is the challenge to it. There are a couple of success stories around.

90.

The Chairperson: I have a composite question in which I am trying to sweep up some things which I think should be covered but we have not dealt with today. It is certainly no ill reflection on you, because we have had an excellent consideration on training, but we have not dealt at all with R & D, and, in theory, that is also part of our inquiry. I suppose we might link that to any advice you give us as you hinted, I think, that our inquiry is very wide. Maybe you are hinting that we should, perhaps, leave something out or put something in - have you any advice on that? Have you any comments on how devolution can really make a difference in this area, and can we do things differently from the rest of the UK?

91.

Mr Simpson: There are difficulties. With the width of your Inquiry, you are either to be complimented or otherwise on being so ambitious. I suspect that when you review the things that people say to you, you may, as a first reaction, begin to reach some conclusions. They will point to issues which you should tease out a bit further. You will probably end up with a series of sub-divisions of your terms of reference. I presume you will be here for two or three years - you are not going to go away in the next couple of weeks, are you? The agenda will evolve over time.

92.

Turning to your question on R & D, most of the successful and interesting R & D comes from large organisations or from university laboratories. Where you have companies which are headquartered somewhere else the tendency is for the R & D work to be conducted elsewhere. The reverse of that argument is that this R & D is available for that company wherever it is, and, therefore, if somebody is conducting R & D in, say, Glasgow for a company that has plants around Glasgow and here, you have to ask whether some of that R & D is influencing local plants. There is a weakness in the equation which says that our expenditure in R & D is low compared to somewhere else unless you reweight it for the structure of your company. Even for an organisation like Bombardier, where would you expect its main R & D to be? We would like a lot of it to be here, but at the heels of the hunt, you would not fault it for having its main R & D in Canada. There is no easy formula to judge how effective this R & D work is.

93.

There are things that can be done that are different. We do have the Industrial Research and Technology Unit (IRTU), which has a capacity to lend its efforts to encourage R & D work of local application. I think the lack of public awareness of what IRTU is doing and the apparently small scale of the work that it is doing is actually something that needs to be examined further. Should they not be playing on a bigger scale, and could they not be using their resources to enhance activity into Northern Ireland companies? I would like to see them do more. It takes you down the institutional road of asking "Why do we have IRTU standing separate from the IDB? And what is the relationship with the Training & Employment Agency?" Our institutional arrangements are now plainly out of date and inappropriate. I am not one for moving the institutions around as if that made a big difference - moving the furniture - but I think you have to question the dynamic effects of the institutional arrangements.

94.

If I may put a plug in for an organisation with which I was connected for about three years, one of the very important links for developing research based on new products has been the Teaching Company Scheme. I do not know how many of your members, Mr Chairman, have been in close touch with any of the companies and any of the university departments that have used the Teaching Company Scheme. It is managed in Northern Ireland at a level which is more successful than many other parts of the United Kingdom, but it is a mechanism which allows a small-or medium-sized enterprise - or even a big one, but the emphasis is on small or medium enterprises - to link with a university department where there is expertise in its product, its marketing, or whatever else it needs to do. It puts up a small sum of money to enable young graduates to be employed by the business but to be supervised by the academics from the relevant university department. I saw this at work very successfully in a significant number of firms in Northern Ireland.

95.

One of the unintended benefits of that scheme, because we tend to see it as being university research and expertise transferring to the small company, is a reverse flow. The university academics learned more about what they should be teaching, because they saw the commercial application of what they were doing.

96.

The Teaching Company Scheme is a very useful bridge between academic departments and businesses at the level of one business, one academic department. They get to know each other, and you do not get a bluffer from an academic department who cannot talk commercial sense, because the firm will quickly push the academic to join in the commercial ambitions of the project.

97.

Mr J Kelly: This is more a nostalgic or even philosophical observation, but when I was young, maybe about the same time you were young, university education was the exception rather than the rule. If you were lucky you got an apprenticeship which was indentured, and sometimes you had to pay for your apprenticeship. You went to the store first, and you learned the nuts and bolts of engineering; then you went to the shop, but you had a journeyman. I do not know the derivation of the word "journeyman", but he was a tradesman; not only would he teach you the skills of the trade, but he was philosophical as well. He knew about Shakespeare, so you were getting a really rounded education. We have missed all of that in the transition from craft to the academic; we have missed out on that round on education. How do we get that link back to it again? I think it is a significant factor in our education that is missing.

98.

Mr Simpson: That journeyman, in today's terminology, would probably have gone to university.

99.

Mr J Kelly: Precisely, but what about the relationship between the student and teacher?

100.

Mr Simpson: You now ask for your craftsman, your vocational training to take place with accreditation based in an institution or college, whatever it may be. You rightly say that the weakness in that is that the personal relationship which conveys the ethos of what they are doing as opposed to the technique is weakened.

101.

The Chairperson: I think we have had over an hour and a quarter of questioning and discussion. It has been extremely helpful, and we are very grateful that you could come at quite short notice. You have prepared yourself very well and brought a lot of documentation to bear on the matters arising. We may well want to talk to you again in the future as this inquiry proceeds. Thank you very much for coming. We wish you well in your many activities.

102.

Mr Simpson: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I have enjoyed the experience so far. If I can be of help at another time, please let me know.

103.

The Chairperson: We may well wish that. Thank you.

top
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 29 June 2000

Members Present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Byrne
Rev R Coulter
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:
Dr M Anyadike-Danes ) Director, Northern Ireland Economic Research Centre

Mr B McGinnis ) Chairman, Training and Employment Agency, also Chairman, New Deal and Skills Task Force

Mr T Scott ) Director, Skills and Industry Division, Training and Employment Agency

104.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon, Ladies and Gentlemen, and thank you very much for coming along. With us this afternoon is Mr Bill McGinnis, Chairman of the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA), though speaking mainly in his capacity as Chairman of the Skills Task Force. This is something with which we will be concerned in the context of this inquiry.

105.

Also present is Mr Tom Scott, director of skills and industry division in the T&EA, and Dr Mike Anyadike-Danes, Director of the Northern Ireland Economic Research Centre (NIERC). I have to declare an interest here since it was that body that gave me my first job. In the rows behind are accompanying departmental officials, Mark Livingstone and Terry Morahan from Research and Evaluation Branch; Adrian Arbuthnot, Director of Regional Operations; Tom Hunter, Secretary to the Skills Task Force; and Brenda Marson, Assembly Liaison Officer. We are very pleased to have you all with us.

106.

Thank you for your kind words of welcome. I would like to tell you a little about what the T&EA does, and I will then tell you about the Skills Task Force. I am the non-executive Chairman who conducts the meetings, co-ordinates business and provides business advice. My colleagues are the practitioners.

107.

The Training and Employment Agency is a non-statutory body. The Board's primary role is to help to secure strong collaboration and co-operation between the T&EA and the private sector and to assist in the development of training and employment services. As Chairman, I have particular responsibility for providing effective strategic leadership in such matters as formulating the Board's strategy for discharging its duties, ensuring that the Board is provided with advance papers, taking account of wider Government policy and ensuring high standards of propriety.

108.

Communication between the Board and the Minister normally takes place through me, and I have, as appropriate, in the past had regular meetings with the direct rule Ministers and, more recently, with Sean Farren. I brief all members taking up office with the Board on their duties and responsibilities. I also ensure that the Board meets regularly and that proper minutes are kept and actioned.

109.

My general role is to promote the Agency and its policies and programmes, and I carry out representational work when I present initiatives like Investors in People. I also have involvement in NVQ certification and pay visits to industry to identify needs. My primary role is to maintain a strong liaison with the Agency's executive to ensure that the Board's advisory and challenging role is understood. I also work in partnership with the executive to assist with delivery of the Agency's objectives. We produce a corporate plan and an operational plan on an annual basis, and I am sure that you have seen copies. We are soon to publish this financial year's operational plan; it is almost ready to go to print. That sums up my role as Chairman of the Agency.

110.

I will give you some background to the Skills Task Force. I joined the Board about three years ago and subsequently became its Chairman. During the first half of the 1990s the Board had to balance its policies and programmes between creating a wide range of opportunities for unemployed people, particularly the long-term unemployed, and providing industry with the skills it required. High unemployment rates and the large numbers of long-term unemployed made that task difficult and there was a necessary focus on the social targeting of training. As unemployment has fallen - we are now down to something like 6·6%, one of the lowest regions in the UK - others have begun to recognise the need to avoid skills problems. The Agency has had to refocus much of its work and that has been evident by the move from employment creation programmes, such as the ACE programme, to those with a strong training element.

111.

It has also become apparent that if we are to ensure that Northern Ireland remains a good place for inward investment, we need to better understand the dynamics of the changing labour market and the areas of potential employment growth. We have always had a good close working relationship with the Industrial Development Board (IDB) and the Local Enterprise Development Unit (LEDU), and we have been fully aware of their priorities in job creation and improving the workforce. Perhaps, we have had less understanding of the contribution made by the higher and further education sector. In recent years, and probably since the introduction of New Deal, I have had more contact with people in that aspect of education. We have worked hard at trying to convey the contributions which can be made to creating future skills through a wide range of activity. The creation of a Skills Task Force can influence the labour market, T&EA research and the work of the Department of Education. The creation of a new Department for Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment has further underlined the need for co-ordination and research.

112.

Now that a research programme has been put in place, and a flow of information is beginning, I expect the Task Force to become a greater catalyst for change. I believe a process of change has begun, helped by the focus of Strategy 2010 and the Information Age initiative. We still have time to avoid major skills shortages and I should not like to categorise our present situation as a crisis. We still have a supply of good people in Northern Ireland, but reskilling and upskilling are required as jobs change. The work of the Northern Ireland Economic Research Centre on the Information and Communication Technologies (ICT) industry to be published shortly, shows that the policies we have put in place are having a positive impact. We cannot be complacent, but neither can we suggest that good inward investment projects and local expansion are being over-constrained at present. That concludes my general introduction.

113.

Mr Scott: Thank you for the welcome, Chairman. I will say something about the Skills and Industry division within the Agency and the new Department. The role of this division is in providing training programmes which advance employability skills, particularly of those entering the labour market, basically school leavers and the unemployed. It is also about meeting the skills needs of industry. The size and complexity of the New Deal and Welfare to Work programmes require a separate division within the Agency.

114.

I deal essentially with the non-New Deal aspects of training. My responsibilities include programmes such as Jobskills, which is the main programme for young people; Lifelong Learning, including University for Industry, Individual Learning Accounts, Open Learning and Investors in People; the training centres and the ongoing role of merging those training centres with further education colleges; the Bridge to Employment initiative, sectoral training policy, management development and of course Skills Task Force responsibilities. The key policies we have been adopting over several months include the research programme undertaken by the Skills Task Force, and the short paper I sent to you was meant to set the scene for what lay behind that and the types of research being undertaken. If you wish, we can go into the research programme in some more detail as we proceed.

115.

We have refocused the Jobskills programme, and, in particular, we have increased the number of young people engaged in Modern Apprenticeships - that is employment-based workplace learning with employers who actually employ them from day one. That has been an area of successful growth.

116.

The Bridge to Employment programme is about training unemployed people for specific vacancies that occur where there is an inward investment or a local expansion. We are achieving about an 80% success rate for people going through that programme.

117.

We have also been engaged in, for example, the software industry strategy which includes a number of programmes such as the graduate conversion programme. About 250 graduates are being retrained in the software industry - infact they will graduate this weekend - and it looks as if we will get about a 75% success rate in respect of those going into employment in the first three months.

118.

We are also currently working on a tourism training strategy. We are allocating money which the Chancellor announced two years ago - £14 million over three years for a range of initiatives. We can give you details of that if you think it would be useful.

119.

That is a flavour of the sort of things we are involved in to try to address some of the bottlenecks. Our main role, however, is about influencing the mainstream provision, and on a cross-departmental basis, talking to our colleagues in further and higher education and in other areas about how those programmes can best be targeted on where the growth and skills will occur. We have identified some early areas to look at, including tourism, software, and so forth, and our main focus is about influencing those policies. That is likely to be a long haul, because things will change as the types of inward investment change.

120.

That is a short introduction. Dr Anyadike-Danes may wish to say something about the research we are conducting with him, and then we will answer questions.

121.

Dr Anyadike-Danes: I sent some documentation notes to the Committee, so I will be brief. I sent you a full-page note explaining our background and the sort of work that we do at the Centre. It also gives details about NIERC, an independent research centre concerned mainly with evaluating the effects of economic policy and doing research which will assist policy makers to improve policy in Northern Ireland and thereby, we hope and trust, improve its economic prospects. We are an associate researcher of Queen's University, Belfast. Essentially, we are independent of the university; they provide us with their premises, but other than that, we secure all our own funding. About one third of our funding comes from a block grant from what is now the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (DETI), and the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP). The other two thirds of the money comes from contracts of various kinds, typically long-term contracts with public sector agencies of which the contract for the Priority Skills Unit to help advise the Northern Ireland Skills Task Force is an example. We have a three-year contract to do that work.

122.

There are about half a dozen programmes and units within the Centre. The first three, which are funded by the block grant, are to do with tradable services, human resources and economic development; innovation and industrial change. They are the core programmes agreed with DETI and DFP, and the three units which carry out the more contract-orientated research, or most of it, are the Policy Evaluation Unit, which does a lot of work for LEDU, on its small business policy in particular; the Priority Skills Unit, which I will come back to in a moment, and the Regional Forecasting Unit. As part of its work on the UK as a whole, the Regional Forecasting Unit sets forecasts of employment in Northern Ireland twice a year.

123.

Those are the main areas in which the Centre works. There is more detail in the paper that I sent to you. When we have done the work we disseminate it in a variety of ways. We give seminars and talks to people in public agencies and in public, and we give academic seminars. Lots of the work is published as NIERC reports.

124.

Perhaps you saw some publicity in the press yesterday for our most recent report, by Stephen Roper, on e-commerce and manufacturing innovation. Another report, funded by the Training and Employment Agency, will come out in a few weeks. There is a steady flow of these sorts of publications as well as more academic pieces drawn from the research published in academic journals. I have listed a sprinkling of our recent publications, some of which might interest you.

125.

Another form of dissemination is the Scott Policy Seminars at Malone House, which we took up a couple of years ago. We hold these in series of three and typically invite a speaker eminent in his field to give a lunchtime address on some aspect of economic and social or educational policy. The audience is a mixture of business people, academics and people from agencies and the Civil Service. These seminars have proved very popular with the audience, who have derived a good deal of stimulation from some of the speakers. For example, a speech by Lindsay Paterson on education policy in Scotland attracted a fair bit of attention. He talked about the way in which devolution allowed them to reshape the educational agenda there. We try to encourage more debate on matters of widespread interest in Northern Ireland through the seminars, another aspect of our dissemination activities.

126.

If you wish to know more about the Centre, we have a website, the address of which is at the bottom of the note I sent. If you visit it, you will find out more than you ever wanted to know about the Northern Ireland Economic Research Centre.

127.

The Priority Skills Unit is a dedicated unit within the NIERC. It presently employs two people who have a programme of work, designed to cover the three years of that contract, to do two different sorts of things. One task is producing priority skill assessments, looking at a particular skill nominated by the Northern Ireland Skills Task Force, and carrying out research allowing them to form a view about the present Northern Ireland market position for those skills and prospects over the next five years. It typically involves studying the principal industry that employs the people in whose skills we are interested and collating the results with information from education and training institutions - the supply side - so one ends up with at least an approximate idea of how many people industrial employers want and how many the education and training institutions are likely to produce.

128.

The first skill assessment, dealing with IT, is complete and on the verge of publication subject to the T&EA's approval. It should be with you in the next few weeks. They have started the next priority skill, electronic engineering. There will be a sequence of these reports on various skills, we imagine, around three a year. That is one strand of their work.

129.

The other strand is broader in scope - a series of annual reviews of two things, the first being an annual review of labour market entry from post-compulsory education and training institutions. They are compiling a set of statistics from the different education and training levels and using that to provide estimates of the number of people from each of those levels, by course category, entering the labour market in a particular year. The most recent statistics available are for 1998-99, so they have linked data about the output of training organisations, further education colleges and universities. There are three sets of numbers side by side by category and level of qualification.

130.

It took a little while to harmonise these different classifications. This is not the way in which the statistics have been put together previously. You receive one set from an agency or institution and another set from a different source, and you have to try to find some way of harmonising the definitions of classifications.

131.

That has been done, and that too is being examined by officials of the Agency. The first report is due out before the end of the summer.

132.

The other part of the annual review strand is medium-term projections of occupational trends. That sounds better than I suspect it will turn out to be, as far as usefulness is concerned. We have had a preliminary go at it, and the difficulty, as with many other things in applied economics, is the numbers. The principal source of up-to-date information on occupational and skills classifications in Northern Ireland is the 'Labour Force Survey'. This survey involves looking at classifications across and between industry and occupations which results in projections and trends. We would look at, for example, managers in engineering or operatives in manufacturing and so on down to a reasonable level of detail. When you project the industrial employment forward, you get some sense of how many people in different occupations are going to be required from the industrial side. It varies considerably between industries.

133.

The 'Labour Force Survey' is the source of information for that, and once you get to any level of detail, the fact that it only used a 2% sample means that the margins for error are quite large. We will be producing these occupational trends forecasts in as much detail as the statistics allow. Unfortunately they will be broad, which is why they are a complement to our priority skills assessments rather than a substitute for it. It is not possible to get down to the level of detail that one needs to assemble a supply/demand balance, with that quality of data. Detailed information, industry by industry is required, and that is not something you can do for Northern Ireland all in one go.

134.

That is the work of the Priority Skills Unit. We conduct the relatively focused, and narrowly targeted priority skills assessments about three times a year, and course completions, entry into the labour market, and occupational trends are reviewed annually.

135.

Mr Byrne: Since this Committee started work we have focused on further and higher education up until now. We all realise that not everyone can get into those sorts of jobs. Therefore, we must focus on skills training needs and the delivery of skills training for different sectors. The long-term unemployed are a cause of major concern, as are the young people who are not that academically successful, the 16-year olds doing GCSEs.

136.

I am concerned that in some industries, such as construction, we have a bottleneck, particularly of electricians, bricklayers and plumbers. There has been a bottleneck for a long time in welding, and engineering firms in Tyrone have a major problem with a shortage of skilled welders. However, this is anecdotal and that is why getting the right information is vital for human resource planning for the future.

137.

The other industry where there is a major bottleneck is catering. In the past we had good training of chefs in culinary skills, I am concerned that there has not been the same detailed skills training recently.

138.

I am also concerned about the short-term approach with regard to the New Deal. I would like to see a critical examination of its effectiveness. Lastly, in Modern Apprenticeships, at GNVQ Levels 2 and 3 we need to have a stronger examination of the mixture between practical and theoretical skills.

139.

Mr McGinnis: First of all, we have to distinguish between skill shortages and hard-to-fill vacancies. That is a problem in the traditional industries. I come from a traditional industry where we have difficulty finding welders and that type of person. Young people find it quite difficult to work given the conditions and low pay in some of these jobs, especially in the hospitality sector and some of the food manufacturers, where there are particular competitive pressures to supply the large supermarkets. The big challenge is how to get their prices up to allow them to increase the wages. That is a problem, and we really cannot do very much about it - we have tried to help them. The New Deal, believe it or not, has helped to fill a number of those vacancies, because some of the jobs are quite low-skilled.

140.

We also have the emerging industries, like ICT. We are certainly addressing that matter adequately, at the moment, especially with the job forecasts for that sector from the IDB. With action being taken at the higher level there will be enough employees to fill those jobs in the future. But there are certainly problems with the traditional industries, quite a lot of which are to do with pressure on the pound. People have difficulty getting prices and then have difficulty increasing their wages - that is a major problem.

141.

Mr Scott: Adding to the issues of training for young school leavers and apprenticeships, there is a shortage of people in the construction industry and the "wet trades". Young people are choosing not to follow that training route, and there are more places than there are young people. The growth in the economy in the Republic of Ireland has drained people with those skills from Northern Ireland. There is evidence of a lot of migration in the construction industry in particular. This is an issue that we have been trying to tackle in conjunction with the Construction Industry Training Board (CITB) and the construction employers' groups, and it is, without doubt, a difficulty.

142.

With electrical and plumbing trades in construction, employers tell us that Modern Apprenticeships is working for them, that more young people are coming into the industry. About 400 young people now, on leaving school, go for an apprenticeship, for example in electrical contracting. Employers believe that the outflow from that, as it starts to happen this year, will have a major impact on the quality and numbers of young people in that area. We are not complacent about it and you are right to say we need to keep it under review.

143.

On the more general issue of Modern Apprenticeships, young people, at the age of 16, make a range of choices. They have to decide whether to leave school and go into a training programme or whether to stay on in sixth form, or whether to go on to a further education college and pursue either a general or a vocational route. We are trying to ensure that, whatever choice a young person makes, the progression route that he or she decides to take will be right for them. We are not closing any doors on Modern Apprenticeships. They are available to young people up to the age of 25, unlike Jobskills which stops at 18. There is an opportunity for people to progress.

144.

We are working on developing programmes for level 4 and above, that is technician level and apprenticeships for technicians. We have been talking to the engineering industry recently on how we might do that. We are constantly reviewing it, but it is difficult to get right. We are convinced that you cannot divide vocational training from vocational education. As we move into the future, a closer working relationship between further education and training, just call it learning, is essential.

145.

Mr Byrne: The catering and tourism industry is one industry where, it is speculated, a peace dividend should result in an economic dividend, with a growth in tourism.

146.

I accept it is a low-paid industry. The question is, where will the initiative come from to change the nature of the industry? Are we going to leave it to individual hotels and organisations, or should Government (or a Government Agency) take the lead in creating the higher value-added, higher skilled approach where modern tourism is going to provide a better service?

147.

It is about providing that higher value-added product in a predominantly people business. There is a major responsibility on a public organisation to lead the way. Other tourism spots have better service skills than we are currently producing. We did have these in the past, but have let them slip somewhat.

148.

Mr Scott: In conjunction with the industry, we have established an organisation called the Tourism Training Trust that comprises all aspects of the tourism industry, including hospitality, which is obviously a key part of it. They have drawn together a training strategy for the industry, and we are currently working with them on that.

149.

One of the related issues is that an estimated £12 million a year is spent on training for the hospitality industry through our various programmes of further education. The impact of that, however, may not be so obvious. There is a high drop-out rate and a low rate of converting that training into jobs on the tourism side of catering and hospitality. People with those skills are going into other types of employment.

150.

We are working with the industry to try to establish a strategy for holding those people who have undergone training in employment, once that training is finished. Image is one of the issues here. We have funded a group called Hospitality Matters, which is focused on selling and promoting careers in the industry with the appropriate people in the industry. Although steps are being taken to address the problems, more needs to be done, and we are working with the industry to address this.

151.

Mr McGinnis: An important point is the diverse nature of these groups. I have had to chair some of them and bring them all together. A caravan site owner, for example, and the owner of a five-star hotel will have entirely different needs. It is very hard to get a strategy that suits them all. To deal with that we have to divide it into smaller chunks, and we are working closely on that at the moment.

152.

Mr Byrne: I accept that. I think it is about how we create the leadership to get the higher skill levels. We have to make it attractive to young people in order to retain them so that they can develop those higher value-added skills, and by doing that we can create an attractive product for the potential customer.

153.

Mr Dallat: I would like to focus on the catering aspect. The senate of the University of Ulster recently approved the merging of the hotel and catering industry boards. That was immediately attacked by senior people in hospitality, in language which I found offensive. I really despaired. To repeat what Mr Byrne said, a lot of the employment prospects in the future will arise out of the completely different political environment we will be living in. You must be disappointed to find the industry in such a mess, and that they refer to people coming to train in Northern Ireland as imports. As a politician, I was totally destabilised by that style of language, not to mention the notion that training should take place only in Belfast and anywhere else should not be involved. I am not sure what influence we can have in your deliberations with these people, but I hope I am reflecting the views of the Committee that this was ill-advised, ill-founded and will certainly require some repair work to be done. The Assembly will give all the support it can to the hotel and catering industry, but we need to be pulling in the same direction and speaking the same language, particularly parliamentary language. I would be grateful if that message were to get through.

154.

Mr McGinnis: Those are some of the things I was touching on, how diverse the industry is.

155.

Mr Dallat: How would you suggest that these obstacles could be overcome?

156.

Mr Scott: The Tourism Trust, with whom we work very closely, is developing a strategy for training in the wider industry, and it has a number of facets. From the time tourists arrive in Northern Ireland until the time they leave, they come in contact with a vast range of services and people. There must be regional equality of these services, not least, of course, in the hospitality industry, which is one of the key points of reference for a tourist coming to Northern Ireland. We are trying to look across the board and are working closely with the industry on a number of initiatives here.

157.

We are funding a multi-skills initiative to try to get more people of a mature age interested in training for the industry. Recently, a number of people graduated from a programme in Newry College under this initiative. We are trying things out, but it will be a long haul. I do not know what the industry thought of the amalgamation of the two institutions, but as the situation works itself out and there is an improvement in training and in the type of course that comes out of that amalgamation, perception may well change.

158.

Mr Dallat: You will convince them that there is a life outside Glengormley?

159.

Mr McGinnis: Yes. I too have to travel that route every day.

160.

Mrs Nelis: You are all very welcome, and thank you for your presentations. With regard to your skills monitoring approach with employers and the vacancy monitoring survey, do you feel this provides you with the quality and quantity of data that you require? I am asking this because of the various schemes which have gone before, for example, if you think back to the heady days of YTP, then there was ACE, and now there is Jobskills.

161.

Mr McGinnis, you also talked about policies that have been put in place which have had a positive impact. Would you like to elaborate on refocusing Jobskills and employment-based work-skill learning? Could you give us an example of how that works? I also wanted to ask about skills and training for the hard-to-fill job vacancies. If you go into the jobcentre in the city where I come from - and Mr Arbuthnot and I have talked about this quite often in terms of the New Deal programme - most of the jobs that are advertised are service-sector, low-paid jobs. Quite frankly, you could not afford to acquire a skill while in receipt of benefits. What is particularly valuable is that at last, we might be moving towards addressing a certain deficit, but I think it is going to be a long, hard slog.

162.

I also wanted to ask about the T&EA programme, which monitors skills deficit and how this addresses the religious differential in unemployment.

163.

Mr Scott: Perhaps I will let Dr Anyadike-Danes give you the research details, but essentially, what we are trying to do is tackle a range of research projects of varying depths to get a three-dimensional picture, rather than a single-dimensional snapshot of what is happening. Bringing all the information together will help us see more clearly what types of policies to pursue in the future, and also to influence the providers of education and training as to the choices offered by various other colleges and providers. Better information will help them make the decisions which will help us.

164.

On the issue of refocusing Jobskills, up until about 18 months ago it had four categories of funding and four periods of training for a range of people. Firstly, we simplified it by having two levels of funding and two periods of training. Secondly, as an incentive, the higher rate of payment for training was given to the area which we thought had the most potential for employment growth. Previously, we had a very large percentage of young people in training in the area of non-priority skills - the non-growth areas. We now have a significant percentage of young people training in what we consider to be the six priority skill areas and these are mentioned in my paper.

165.

As regards Modern Apprenticeships, 70% of the young people on these are in priority skills areas: the difficult-to-fill parts of the construction industry, for example, electricians and plumbers, software and engineering. We have begun to incentivise the programme in such a way that more providers are training more young people in the areas that we would like to see them trained in.

166.

You said that you found it difficult to see how previous programmes worked. The problem, perhaps, was that although we guaranteed every young person who left school a training place, we were not always able to guarantee a positive employment outcome. As the economy begins to improve and, with luck, employment continues to rise, we will be able to offer those young people a better career opportunity, and so we can afford to incentivise the programmes in favour of more relevant training. That is beginning to have an impact and we can let you have detailed figures. There is clear evidence of a trend towards young people being trained in areas of economic growth.

167.

We monitor all our programmes on the basis of community background, gender and disability. Each year, we publish a report on equal opportunity monitoring. Across the board, our programmes largely reflect the needs of the community in all those areas. There is research from the Fair Employment Agency, now the Equality Commission, about differentials in different career areas and we have also carried out some research into that. Our main concern is to offer an opportunity to everyone who wants it and to ensure that, in targeting social need, we reach the places which most need those employment and training opportunities. We monitor those to see how they work out and we can let you have a copy of our most recent monitoring data.

168.

Dr Anyadike-Danes: If I understood correctly, you wanted to know more about the statistical background. The broadest statistics on people, by category of course and level of programme have been put together at the post-compulsory education and training stage. The data is collected from different groups and organisations. For example, we get training organisation data from the Training and Employment Agency. Further education data used to come from the old Department of Education for Northern Ireland, now part of the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment. The UK-wide Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) produces data on students in higher education. That is the starting point: numbers of people taking courses.

169.

There are a couple of extra steps. For the skills research, we are interested in people coming on to the labour market. They are the ones who are going to be taking the new jobs. It is important to ascertain, in each of those levels of education and training, exactly how many people are looking for a job. We have found, particularly in further education, that certain qualifications are regarded very much as ladders to a further qualification. There is a strong transfer between HNDs, especially in information technology, and higher education, going on to a degree.

170.

In that particular case, there is some difficulty in tracking what happens next, because it is not obvious that these students are going on to further study in Northern Ireland. There is a flow into higher education in the UK, because entry levels for information technology in the universities there are rather different. We are losing numbers, and then they come in again.

171.

What we tried to do was build up a rather complicated picture so that we could see who had actually come onto the labour market in Northern Ireland. It was quite a comprehensive undertaking to track all those things again, partly because of people moving from one level to another and not actually taking new jobs.

172.

There are also a number of people who are involved in part-time education. They will often be working and, therefore, will not actually come on to the labour market for new jobs. Our figures had to take into consideration these sort of adjustments in the labour market.

173.

Mr Scott: I missed a question. You asked me to give an example of what we have done. In the software industry we offered about 80 training places, 20 of them in the north-west and the rest in the Greater Belfast area, to people who were unemployed. We put them through a 20-week training course, and 80% of them are now working for software companies. None of them had previously worked in the software industry, and they had all been unemployed for at least six months, many for longer. That was a successful pilot. We are now repeating this with two more companies. In this way particular industries can be targeted to match the needs of people who have an interest but perhaps do not have the formal qualifications. By completing a 20-week training course, sufficient formal qualifications can be attained in order to get a job. People can then work their way through a career from this base.

174.

Ms McWilliams: It seems that you have set yourself some tall orders. For example, your intention to carry out three assessments in the Priority Skills Unit. So far you have completed only one. Are the other two still ongoing, and do you think you will carry out three every year? I am interested in this particular way of looking at these issues. I think this is where quite a lot can be learned by our Committee and how that feeds into policy development.

175.

I also want to ask you about your methodology. It is quite quantitative in design, but a lot of what we have learnt about the Northern Ireland labour market has come from more in-depth qualitative studies. While macro-economic forecasting and predicting trends is extremely useful, sometimes we find that there are some idiosyncratic reasons behind peoples' choice of occupations within the labour market. Do you feel that the reasons for job decisions by individuals can be uncovered through quantitative methods?

176.

You also claim to have by far the best innovation database. I am glad that you have added "of any UK region". I am particularly interested in how we are standing up in comparison to other European countries.

177.

Mr McGinnis: To focus on your point about setting ourselves a tall order, if you read the press at the moment there is a great deal of discussion about skill shortages. We have to address these fairly quickly. We have a window of opportunity with the formation of the Assembly and the development of inward investment. We must be geared up and have the answers as soon as possible. However, we probably need to put more resources into meeting that target.

178.

Ms McWilliams: Do not get me wrong. I am not criticising you for setting yourself a tall order. However, it is one thing to set yourself a strategic plan, but will you meet it?

179.

Mr McGinnis: We will meet it. Yes.

180.

Ms McWilliams: Obviously we will be very interested to see the other two studies. What are they on?

181.

Dr Anyadike-Danes: The IT is complete, the electronic engineering study is underway, and then we will focus on mechanical engineering. That is not yet started. Our year runs from September to September. While I would not wish to contradict the Chairman, I think the original agreement was three on average. This is the first year the Unit has been in operation. If you wanted me to be realistic, I would say we would have two and a half studies completed by September. It is a new area, and not just in Northern Ireland. What we are doing is not commonly done, so there is a very steep learning curve for both the researchers and the system.

182.

This bears on the question about the methodology of research. Built in from the beginning, for the Agency, the Task Force and ourselves, was the need to understand the industry. Any well-schooled undergraduate with a computer can do projections. There are packages that allow one to do that. The numbers are put in and some numbers come out as the projection. That is precisely not what we are doing here.

183.

Each of the skills assessments involves a period of consultation before the study takes place. The basic model involves a consultation process with industrial representative organisations, the Agency, the IDB, and various industrial development bodies. There will then be a survey of the industry that is principally employing the skills that we are interested in. In the period after the survey is written up and analysed, there is another period of consultation, discussing the results with people to see whether they think that we have captured the main features or have missed anything. Those processes ensure that we are not just sitting in the office with a computer, putting numbers in and taking numbers out. It is more about trying to get to the bottom of an issue than just producing numbers. It is by no means a recipe for finding the ultimate truth, but we are getting below the surface of the numbers.

184.

For example, our first survey on the IT industry revealed some things about the computer services industry. We surveyed it because it essentially employs IT-qualified people in Northern Ireland. The survey revealed aspects of how that industry worked here. They were not necessarily different from elsewhere in the United Kingdom, but they were not very well appreciated by many of the people who talk about the industry. It does not seem to be generally appreciated, even by relatively well-informed people, that less than half of the people who work in computer services have an IT qualification. Therefore, to talk about the need for IT-qualified people is not the same as talking about the number of people employed in computer services. If one says that the number of people employed in computer services is going to go up by 10,000 then only about 50% will be IT-qualified people.

185.

The next step is to recognise that there is a mixture of newly-qualified and experienced staff among those IT-qualified people who are employed. To project the industry's growth prospects, a series of adjustments has to be made to the numbers of qualified people being used.

186.

In the past, people have not always understood enough about the industry to recognise that that was necessary. That is part of getting to the bottom of what is going on, as opposed to taking the numbers and just pushing them forward. The same processes went on when the Priority Skills Unit went out to see the Professor of Electrical Engineering at Jordanstown, Professor Anderson, representatives of Nortel and the Engineering & Employers Federation. That is now in the mix. The survey has been designed, and it will be going out into the field in the next couple of weeks once we get survey permission.

187.

We are making a serious effort to get to the bottom of issues, as opposed to just taking a statistical overview. It is not the methodology that is always used, partly because it is time-consuming. Very often with these questions, one finds that people want to know the answer yesterday. Someone will say "There is shortage. Now, what can you tell me about it?" There is a danger of overreacting to that. Of course, it is important, and we need to know about matters as quickly as possible, but there is a danger of overreacting and, as a result, not grasping some of the factors at work in the different industries.

188.

Ms McWilliams: I would like a copy of the IT study, as it would be useful, given the Committee's focus.

189.

Dr Anyadike-Danes: We can arrange that.

190.

Mr Scott: We should have it within two weeks. We will give you an advance copy early next week, before it is published.

191.

Dr Anyadike-Danes: There was a third question concerned with innovation. That is not actually in the remit of the Priority Skills Unit, but obviously it is of concern to the Committee. The issue is covered in the main by a research programme run by Stephen Roper. As I mentioned earlier, the report published yesterday was his, and, amongst other things, it dealt with e-commerce.

192.

The report compared the use of e-commerce and various other measures of innovation between manufacturing firms in Northern Ireland and the Republic, based on the results of the third survey. We now have three sets of data on innovation comparing Northern Ireland and the Republic which span roughly 10 years. Because the survey was part of a collective effort across Europe there will be comparable data sets for Scotland and Baden-Württemberg in Germany, providing us with a number of different benchmarks. Those other data sets have only started to arrive, so they have not yet been analysed next to the Northern Ireland results. We do have the comparison between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland on different measures of innovation including the use of numerical control machine tools; computer-aided design; electronic data interchange between customers and businesses; the worldwide web and email. There are indicators for each of those by size of company and by ownership of company for both Northern Ireland and the Republic.

193.

It is a long report with about 70 pages and lots of tables. I happen to have with me a research briefing which summarises it in two pages, and I am quite happy for you to have that. The Centre produces a research briefing each time it publishes one of the more technical working papers to provide us with a summary and a bit of the detail.

194.

Ms McWilliams: It would be great if we could have that briefing note, because we are particularly keen to focus in on international comparisons.

195.

Dr Anyadike-Danes: Stephen Roper's report was covered in the press yesterday. The coverage had a distinctly half-full or half-empty feel to it. Some parts of the media highlighted the fact that Northern Ireland and parts of the Republic were on level pegging in some areas, particularly with regard to e-commerce and the web. Other parts of the media highlighted areas where Northern Ireland was slightly behind. The parts of the study they reported depended on what they wanted to say.

196.

When I read the report my reaction was that there had been a distinct improvement in Northern Ireland's performance relative to that in the Republic. We are still lagging behind in certain areas, but it is not mainly in e-commerce. This represents a major correction, because studies on competitiveness by the Department of Trade and Industry suggest that Northern Ireland is right out of the picture as far as the use of computers and e-commerce is concerned. This new report indicates that in manufacturing at least, this is not the case.

197.

Ms McWilliams: Is it not the case then that we started off much worse and are now much better, but in comparison to the Republic we are doing OK?

198.

Dr Anyadike-Danes: That is right. There is level pegging in many areas and the Republic are meant to be doing quite well by international standards, but we will see more comprehensively when the other data arrives.

199.

Mr Scott: May I pick up on a small point that was raised? Generally, it is our intention that all work carried out under the auspices of the Skills Task Force is published and disseminated as widely as possible. There is no point doing the work if it does not influence what people do. Our clear intention is that everything will be published, and published quickly. There is no difficulty however in letting you see our reports in advance of them being published.

200.

On the point raised about quality as opposed to quantity; there is some research evidence from the National Skills Task Force that sometimes a mismatch exists between the output of colleges, universities and industry - not in terms of the qualifications gained, but in terms of the course content.

201.

We intend, in due course, to begin to target that type of research so that we get a feel for whether or not we need to change. We discovered from this work that Northern Ireland employers in the software industry are not keen to employ HND graduates as opposed to university graduates. We have asked the colleges to change their courses to better meet the needs of the local software industry. They appear happy to do so in conjunction with us.

202.

The Chairperson: Regarding the method you have been using to uncover skills needs, I have read the various articles in the bulletin written by Terry Morahan and Mark Livingstone, and two things spring to mind. The first is the extent to which you rely on employers' perceptions of their skills needs. The employer may sometimes uncover what is needed, but there is a danger that they are simply complacent, that they do not realise they need to upskill to be more competitive. Have you adopted a different approach to that adopted in Great Britain? My understanding of the National Task Force, relative to what is happening here, is that to a greater extent they have tried to explain the gaps, whereas, to some degree, you are acknowledging them. The advantage of doing it very directly is speed, but systematic weaknesses could arise because you are not really explaining the process.

203.

Mr Scott: I do not know whether Michael or Terry wish to comment on the research elements, but some of the work that we have undertaken in terms of responses to skills gaps has been of the Elastoplast type. We have spotted where the gaps are, and we have decided to take some quick action. They are not to be seen as long-term policies. When we get better information we will begin to develop longer term mainstream policies. For example, the £14 million of the Chancellor's money that we got over a three-year period is being used very much as first aid. But we will undoubtedly adopt more robust policies to address the longer term deep-seated issues as they arise. I would like to make that clear right away. We do not see what we are doing as a panacea.

204.

Mr Morahan: The genesis of this goes back over several years when skills shortages were rising up the agenda. We moved from the situation where demand was the problem to one which increasingly became one of supply. I joined the CEDEFOP which is the EU Institution concerned with training, and it has a sub-group called CIRETOQ which is concerned with developing forecasting and links into the leading-edge monitoring and forecasting research technologies.

205.

The best systems that I found, and this is explained in Labour Market Bulletins 11 and 12, were in Belgium and Holland. When I visited the Dutch Statistical Institute there were 2,000 statisticians working there. We do not have those resources. Belgium, for instance, goes into greater depth which is the kind of research we are concerned with.

206.

Employers' perceptions, in terms of forecasting, are not a reliable approach. Employers do not think that far ahead. Furthermore, adding one bad result to three good results gives a bad result. In terms of monitoring, there is now a good source in our employer survey. There has been an 80% response rate and 4,000 in the entire survey.

207.

It has shown that vacancies have risen from 10% to 21% in the last two years. So the labour market is tightening. There is a section with employers' comments and insights into the problems: that is the qualitative element which will give us a greater insight into the issues you raised.

208.

Mr Livingstone: As far as skills monitoring is concerned, we rely on employers' perceptions. There is an argument for harder measures. The problem is that there will be a time lag in getting the data and it is impossible to disaggregate it in the industry and occupational sectors to make it meaningful. We rely on employers' responses, but that is not to say that we do not query them.

209.

For example, in the Skills Monitoring Survey we asked employers how they fill vacancies. We then explore what qualifications they are asking for and what the salary was, and why they thought that there were vacancies. Using that sort of information we disaggregate the true skill shortages from the vacancies which are hard to fill because of the way certain businesses are run. That is one of the elements.

210.

Mr Morahan: It is a labour market, and people's rate of employment and their wages will reflect demand and supply. A couple of weeks ago we published the Centre for Research into Higher Education project on graduate skills for the labour market. Our focus was on those who entered university in 1991. It was clear from their employment and salary levels how well they had done. That is a good guide which reflects the realities of the market rather than just perceptions.

211.

Mr Scott: The monitoring study that Mr Morahan referred to will be published in the late summer, and he is quoting from our raw data. Once that has been published we will send you copies. My job is to process all the information from the econometricians and economists, make a value judgement on it and, finally, propose ways forward.

212.

We go beyond the raw data and ask IDB, LEDU and employers' groups for their views of the broader industry and what advances they think can be made. We do not rely totally for future policy on what employers say, but we take a position on where inward investment should go and where expansion seems to be taking us. We know what the targets are for inward investment and we use that to help us.

213.

Mr Byrne: It is difficult to find good information on where skills are needed for the future. There will be a need for more statisticians to have empirical information.

214.

Mr Scott mentioned IT training for those who had been unemployed for six months, but there are only two centres, one in Belfast and one in Derry. It worries me that we are still using the main centres of urban population to do specific training while vast tracts of Tyrone and Fermanagh are not catered for. This will affect decisions made by LEDU and the IDB when they determine where inward investment is to be located.

215.

If one of the deciding factors is the availability of a skilled workforce, we will never be able to develop those counties as long as we continue to train people in large cities or where there is existing industry. If we are to have a balanced regional development across all of Northern Ireland, there is an onus on us all not to repeat the mistakes of the past. In particular, we have to redirect and focus some skilling in other areas.

216.

Mr Scott: In the example that I gave, the pilot focused on five existing software companies, two of which happened to be in the north-west and the other three in Belfast. I demonstrated that this can work, and we can look to see how it will work elsewhere. One big help will be when the University for Industry finally launches its products in the autumn. They will be able to deliver flexible and distance learning to communities much more easily. Sixty per cent of its products will be on-line, and we hope that, through local learning centres, we can bring that type of learning to the community.

217.

Numbers and the support of numbers is a problem, so the flexible line of approach may well help us, and trials seem to bear that out. The University of Ulster has a good on-line training facility for undergraduates, and that is an issue that we will look at. We will talk to IDB not about where we might locate companies, but about the type of companies that they might focus on. We will then try to create a labour pool to help to ensure that there is readily available assistance for investors' needs when they finally arrive.

218.

The relative success of the software industry is due to the opening up of the tap on university placements five or six years ago. This created a surplus, and for another short period, growth overtook the output of universities until it caught up again. I am sure that you are right and that we will have to examine how we create skilled labour pools. But it is not a simple issue.

219.

Mrs. Nelis: I know that Mr Byrne is concerned about the geographical location of pilot training, and I share his concerns, but I am also concerned about the numbers. You spoke about the tail of educational under-achievers. Where are they, and what has been done about them?

220.

Another issue that concerns me and the other Committee members is the decline in traditional industries, and particularly in textiles. In your report you mentioned that something like 2000 jobs per year are being lost in the textile sector, and these are skilled people. How, and in what sector, do you see them being re-skilled, and have you any data to show what happens?

221.

In my constituency of Foyle there have been huge job losses in the traditional industries, and others, over the years, but, according to the information we have, very few of the people who have lost jobs have been offered training by LEDU - and I am talking only about LEDU.

222.

Mr Scott: In relation to your first point - and perhaps my colleagues can help me if I get lost - for some years the top level of school leavers in Northern Ireland have done exceptionally well, but we have also had a large number of young people who leave school without qualifications. However, over the last number of years, that trend has reversed, and we now have a much better ratio of young people leaving school with qualifications. We have virtually solved the problem for those aged 16, however, those who left school some time ago, and who did not perform well, are still either in the labour market or unemployed.

223.

The International Literacy Survey indicated that something like 24% of adults in Northern Ireland have difficulty with basic skills, and the Moser Report about adult basic skills provided further information.

224.

In the autumn, the Department intends to launch a campaign to address that issue, through adult basic education, further education colleges and in other ways, particularly through the local learning community centre approach, with the support of Individual Learning Accounts and the University for Industry products. The Survey and the Moser report are available if you want to see the details. We realise that that is an issue and we will begin to address it, but the proportion of school leavers currently leaving with qualifications is quite high.

225.

Mr Morahan: We have gone from a position of having the worst outcome in the United Kingdom, in terms of people leaving school with no qualifications, to having the best.

226.

The Chairperson: You may not want to comment on this, but there is a cynical view that this improvement, which has happened in statistical terms, has meant that the quantity has gone up but that quality has gone down.

227.

Mr Morahan: That is for the Department of Education. There is other evidence of improvement. The twelfth Labour Market Bulletin, which gives the results from the International Adult Literacy Survey, the Third International Maths and Science Survey, and the Key Stage III tests, and all show startlingly good results for the young people of Northern Ireland. Fortunately, we will not have to carry out such meta-analysis any longer because we are taking part in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, (OECD) PISA survey, which takes place across 40 countries and results will be available next year. The work in progress will be reported on in the next Labour Market Bulletin (No. 14) in November 2000. That will be the gold standard for information.

228.

Mr Scott: I will deal with the second point, concerning redundancies from traditional industries. Again, the Unit, under Mr Morahan's direction, has carried out in-depth surveys of a number of companies where there have been large-scale redundancies in order to track where people have gone. Mr Morahan can give you copies of that research. We are now beginning to see the way in which people move from one to job to another when these things happen, and how, therefore, we can intervene to help them.

229.

For example, in the north-west at the moment, people are being made redundant from the textile and clothing industry while there is a growth in call centres in the city. Where we see such a match up, we can begin to help people gain the skills required to move to totally different careers. Our approach is to try and find out where the best opportunities for those people would be, and intervene, either through the New Deal - with personal advisors and the jobcentres, - or through our Bridge to Employment programme, which we have used to good effect in the north-west.

230.

Mrs Nelis: People losing their jobs are not within the 16 to 25 age group. Most have been working for 20 to 25 years in industries that are now closing down.

231.

Mr Scott: We recognise that for lots of people, going back into structured education is not necessarily the route they wish to take. We are developing ways - for example, in Derry we have an open learning access centre linked to the local college - where people can study on a one-to-one basis. They can gain experience - for instance in IT skills - which will allow them to change careers without facing the consequence of having to go to a big class in the college. Colleges are beginning to change the way in which they work, realising that those types of people have real difficulty in getting back into structured training. We realise we have a long way to go.

232.

Rev Coulter: In your research, have you found a change in attitude in the grammar school sector from the Victorian idea of directing first-class students into the professions and second-class students into industry? What have you found statistically on the numbers of grammar school students who have done well in their exams going into industry, rather than the professions?

233.

Mr Morahan: Yes, that is the whole issue of parity of esteem for vocational and professional qualifications. A lot more students are going into industry in the private sector in comparison to what there used to be. The full results have been sent to you in the Centre of Research and Higher Education publication, and you can look at the summary. People are going into more diverse careers nowadays, as might be expected. There is some evidence to show that.

234.

Rev Coulter: Secondly, in view of the trauma in the agriculture industry, what has your research highlighted by way of the need to retrain farming people, either to give them part-time skills or to enable them to go into a different industry altogether?

235.

Mr Scott: We have been talking to our colleagues in agriculture about the issue of reduction in farm incomes and the apparent need for those people who work on the land, to take up other skills and to take up second jobs to supplement their income. We have invested in research along with the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development to look at this issue. I am not sure what the timescale is.

236.

Mr Livingstone: Work should be starting at the end of the summer.

237.

Mr Scott: There is a comprehensive survey being carried out, of which skills will be a part. We are looking at the totality of land-based industries to provide us with some feedback on what is happening there, what changes there have been and what the likely skills are that will be needed for the future. At the same time we have also agreed a programme for multi-skilling with the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development. We are spending about a quarter of a million a year on working with the Department of Agriculture to multi-skill people who are pursuing a qualification in agriculture.

238.

The Chairperson: Dr Anyadike-Danes, you have been doing work on IT (Information Technology). Is this related to the analysis of demand and supply conditions in the Northern Ireland labour market and an examination of the labour market for IT workers in Northern Ireland which the NIERC published in April?

239.

The work is excellent and I find the reports interesting to read, but it would have been easier to absorb if some sort of summary had been provided. I appreciate that they are at draft stage - that is a minor point. I may have got this wrong, but from reading the analysis of demand and supply conditions in the Northern Ireland IT labour market, I got the impression that we were arguing that there was actually a surplus supply of IT graduates coming out of Northern Ireland, and indeed institutions, relative to demand. That may be true. I find that conclusion surprising, which of course could show that anecdotes and what you read in the newspapers is not always correct.

240.

Perhaps I did not interpret the many graphs correctly. Could you talk us through that report as that is a very interesting finding.

241.

Dr Anyadike-Danes: Let me just take the first point you made. Two working type papers were produced earlier on, and those are being amalgamated and repackaged as a final report with an executive summary and so on. As I explained in answer to an earlier question from Monica McWilliams, we have a fairly extensive round of consultations with different people and one must have something to show them. We made early drafts of the report, and while this is not necessarily going to be the final form, this is how it looks. The reports use different words at different stages, and do not look exactly the same.

242.

As I say, the final publication of that particular material will be in a Skills Task Force paper. You made a second, more substantial, point about that study's actual findings.

243.

You have quite correctly interpreted that it projects a surplus of new IT graduates over demand in Northern Ireland. These are projections, and there are a number of scenarios with larger or smaller surpluses, however the basic position is that higher education institutions in particular, are producing, on the basis of the most reasonable assumptions about demand, a surplus of IT graduates. The great caveat in this, which should perhaps have flashing lights attached to it, is that those scenarios balancing supply and demand were constructed on assumptions. The critical assumption on the supply side is that enrolments will continue to grow at the same rate at which they have been growing in the past.

244.

In a section called 'Risk Factors', one of the variants we considered showed that if we had stopped enrolment in its tracks at the 1999 level - the last data available - we could have eliminated that surplus by 2005. That is a measure of where we are. We are projecting a surplus, but it is not huge, and unless educational policy continues with the same sort of expansionary attitude towards IT, it could change. If the creation of new places were to stop, the surplus might well be reduced. However, the basic position is one of surplus due to the two factors I mentioned at the outset when I discussed IT.

245.

There is a counter-intuitive element. We must understand that we are talking about people qualified in IT. This does not mean there will be a surplus of people with IT skills in Northern Ireland, which seems very unlikely, but the fact that there could be a surplus of people qualified in IT is a different question. We carried out surveys, not just among computer service companies, but in the public sector and in universities. The graduates are all in the universities' IT information sections rather than computer science departments, where they do not actually employ IT graduates.

246.

Relatively few IT graduates work in IT in the public sector. A large number of people do IT jobs, but they are not qualified. The jobs are being done by people without IT qualifications. That is the most important step in understanding what differences there might be between casual conversation about IT shortages and what is going on in this case.

247.

The other important element is the matter of demand for new graduates. Where we heard evidence from employers that they had difficulties recruiting or that vacancies were hard to fill, they were typically looking for graduates with three or more years' experience. No university or any other institution is producing experienced people. People with three years' experience would have graduated three years ago. As far as employers are concerned, the big gap currently lies not with raw graduates, but with those who are experienced and who are even further up the scale. We do not have sufficient data to track new graduates, gauging them in respect of appropriate experience and seeing where they will be in the future. In a sense, the way we perceive our connection with policy is that we are producing new graduates. We are focusing on that, rather than on what will happen to experienced people further down the line.

248.

They are the two critical differences that you have to bear in mind when you are trying to translate a general idea regarding shortages of IT people into the figures that we have here. You have to allow for the facts that fewer than half of the employees in computer services actually have IT qualifications and that less than one quarter of those people were hired as raw recruits. Therefore the demand for new graduates in any year is very much less than the increase in the numbers employed.

249.

Mr Morahan: The PricewaterhouseCoopers salary survey shows that where skill shortages in information technology have been most widely recorded there is little evidence of a salary explosion. This is counter- intuitive. Only sixty per cent of IT graduates enter IT jobs, and we are still losing some to higher paid positions elsewhere. We want to indicate that the shortage, if there is one, is not as big as is sometimes suggested.

250.

The Chairperson: What do you mean by "losing some"?

251.

Mr Morahan: To the Republic of Ireland.

252.

The Chairperson: Are you building in any assumptions for migration?

253.

Dr Anyadike-Danes: We do not have an assumption about migration. New graduates who emigrate would come straight off the top of the survey. In understanding the dynamics of the market, employers who were losing staff were typically losing them to others in Northern Ireland. There was no strong evidence to suggest competition from the Republic of Ireland or London. They were not losing existing staff to organisations outside the Province.

254.

Mr Scott: A further piece of evidence that we should take account of is that international estimates show that by 2005 there will be a shortage of 1·5 million people in the software industry in Europe. Northern Ireland is well placed to attract some of those jobs. We do not want to suggest that we do not need those people.

255.

Mr Dallat: I would like to take this opportunity to ask about the former ACE scheme. During those years, by accident or by design, a lot of people were trained in community-based skills. We are now feeling the effect of the scheme's loss, certainly in the community that I represent. Is there an acceptance that there are skills that are badly needed that were delivered under ACE which, for all its inadequacies, are not being delivered under New Deal? Does the Task Force take this on board and will it be making any recommendations in that respect?

256.

Mr McGinnis: This is something that the New Deal Task Force has taken on board. There has been a fairly strong representation of ACE supporters on that, and we were given New Deal in its raw state from London. We have had a chance to reshape and change it, and it is coming up for a review now because it was a three-year programme. We have fed some of those issues to London in the hope that we can get some changes, but it is at an early stage.

257.

Mr Arbuthnot: New Deal is scheduled to be rolled forward beyond the life of the current Parliament. A lot of thought is being given in England, informed by experiences in Northern Ireland, about the type of format and structure of any continuation. One of the issues that is being looked at is the length of experience that ACE participants had.

258.

Mr Dallat: That is a very brief but a very positive and very welcome answer.

259.

Mrs Nelis: Since we are talking about training, I am sure you have noted the difficulties in the Walsh Visa training programme in the United States. My understanding is that a lot of the trainees are getting very positive experiences, doing well and getting good quality training, but there seem to be some glitches and the press is running with this. I had five sets of parents contact me last weekend. I was told about daughters and sons phoning to say they had been expelled from their accommodation, and revealing the quality of work in the hotel - filling ice boxes for $240 per fortnight. I am just raising this. I am not expecting you to give me answers, but it might be something you want to look at.

260.

Mr McGinnis: It was raised at our Board last week. Two senior officials have gone to the United States to investigate and, hopefully, we should know more in the next couple of weeks. We are very concerned at what is happening, from the reports we were hearing.

261.

Mr Arbuthnot: We have sent, or are about to send, almost 300 young people from Northern Ireland to the United States. There is a further group currently delayed and I will explain that. We will end up sending around 270 - 280 young people in the present phase.

262.

About 80% of the young people we have sent are having positive experiences, they are settling into their new environment and the jobs are going well. But you are quite right; there are problems - and a variety of reasons for the problems that are occurring. Some young people, having been unemployed prior to going out to the United States, have found the employment culture somewhat different from the employment culture here. The expression that was used to me, for example, is 'two strikes and you are out' if you do not show up for work. No excuse is taken - if you do not phone in, that is a warning, and the second time you are out.

263.

There is a different culture regarding alcohol in the United States. During working hours people turning up under the influence or smelling of alcohol receive warnings. There is a very different culture and not all our young people have adjusted to that.

264.

Equally, another problem is that all jobs on offer were not properly or accurately described in enough detail to the young people before they went. That is a learning point for us as well. There are a variety of reasons. My officials who went out returned yesterday and I am going back to the office to have a detailed chat with them this afternoon. They have been out with colleagues from FÁS, meeting with the State Department and Logicon, the organisation contracted by the State Department. There is an evaluation process going through at the moment. My view would be that we should not rush any more people over onto the Walsh Visa programme We should step back a little and look at these issues, see how we can prepare people better and ensure the reception facilities in the States are better than at present.

265.

A group was expected to travel to the United States two weeks ago, and that has been delayed. The problem is that there is a backlog in the accommodation, particularly in Washington. People who go over onto the programme are put into temporary accommodation in Washington, for up to 4 weeks. They are then expected to move into flats and other accommodation. That movement has not taken place with the speed that we anticipated, and it is creating a backlog. I am happy to go into more detail, but that is a broad briefing.

266.

Mrs Nelis: Thank you for that explanation. I appreciate that some of the young people have positive experiences, but I am very concerned about the others. I want to ask you about what happens when they come home. Are they penalised when they go to seek benefits?

267.

Mr Arbuthnot: I do not know what the situation is regarding benefits. That is something that we would have to discuss with the Social Security Agency. It would be wrong to speculate on that now. However, I would be pleased to take it up with the Social Security Agency.

268.

The Chairperson: We have already requested written briefing on the Walsh Visa programme from the Minister. My understanding is that we will be getting a response before the next Committee meeting so we will have more briefing material for the same day next week. Perhaps the issue will come up again.

269.

Mr J Kelly: I was glad that Mrs Nelis brought up that question on Walsh Visa, because some of us did flag up the potential inherent danger two years ago. You are right - there is a different work ethic in America. Having said that, when I was serving my time a horn hooted in the morning for a minute, and if you missed that minute you were deemed late. If you were late on two mornings, you were sent home. That was our work ethic. I want to ask you about the role of apprenticeships and other forms of vocational training. Can you comment on that?

270.

Mr Scott: We touched on it earlier and I am happy to deal with any specific question. Essentially we have tried to get employers more involved in the training of young people and young people more committed to their training over the longer term - the three or four years that it takes to complete an apprenticeship. We have done that by changing the funding regime to enable employers to employ young people immediately they leave school and to allow them to work through a three-to-four year training programme, ending up with a Level 3 NVQ and additional qualifications. To date, all the evidence is that the retention rates are much higher in the apprenticeship programme, and they are growing more quickly than we had hoped. We are very pleased about the success rate of that.

271.

Mr Dallat: I hope that we do not stop the Walsh Visa programme. I have spoken to some people who have come back from it. Some had a tough time but others have come back feeling that they have really achieved something that will stand them in good stead for the rest of their lives. Perhaps there is a learning curve in providing the right support.

272.

Employers have had difficulty differentiating between Walsh people and other people, a difficulty that they have probably exploited. I realise that we are on the record here, but we all encouraged the Walsh programme, and we know there have been problems with it. I would not like to see it stopped, because there are advantages. Am I right in saying that about 80% go to university and are successful and that the remaining 20% fall out? That is not to excuse anything that has happened; that was unfortunate. However, you would certainly have my support to fine-tune it to ensure that people in the future get skills in the hospitality and IT industries, and build on them because we badly need them.

273.

Mr J Kelly: We are not being negative, but this was being heralded as a new dimension in training and people were going to go and come back fully equipped and trained. However, we now find that this is not happening. It needs to be looked at and finely tuned. Young people ought not to be exploited away from home.

274.

The Chairperson: Let us not get into Walsh Visa today. That is a subject for another day.

275.

Mrs Nelis: We should applaud Congressman Walsh because his idea is excellent in principle.

276.

The Chairperson: It only remains for me to give very heartfelt thanks to our visitors who have given us over two hours. This has been useful in respect of the work of the Task Force, the Skills Unit and the Priority Skills Unit, and I have little doubt, as our inquiry develops, that we will be coming back to you. It has been a very fruitful afternoon.

277.

Mr McGinnis: Thank you. We have found it a very pleasant experience and we would be happy to share our views with you at any time. Obviously, we will get feedback from you, and the more feedback we get the better the outcome will be.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 7 September 2000

Members
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr J Kelly
Mrs Nelis
Ms McWilliams

Witnesses:

Ms M Lyons ) Springvale Training; New Deal West

Ms F McLernon ) New Deal West

278.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon and welcome. Perhaps you might give us a brief summary of your concerns and answer questions afterwards.

279.

Ms Lyons: We are happy to do that and to speak about our strengths and weaknesses.

280.

Ms McLernon: My role in the operation of New Deal West, which is a lead partner in the west Belfast consortium, is to look after finance and administration, New Deal clients, consortium members and associate members.

281.

We have 10 consortium and 23 associate members drawn from training providers and community groups in Catholic and Protestant districts of west Belfast and the city centre. We service three training and employment agencies and jobcentres in the Shankill, Andersonstown and Falls.

282.

I would like to look at the strengths and weaknesses of the programme for the unemployed person. One of the main strengths of New Deal for the unemployed is that our consortium offers something for everybody. A wide variety of training and community groups offer employment. There is also a wide choice of skills and training and opportunities in the voluntary and environmental arenas to gain experience through paid employment.

283.

A weakness for the unemployed person is the eligibility for New Deal: it favours 18 to 24 year-olds. They can access it when they have been unemployed for six months, while those over 25 must wait 18 months. When people lose their jobs, they often consider retraining, and we inform them that they must wait 18 months before they can access New Deal. After 18 months' unemployment their motivation has largely evaporated.

284.

The unemployed must use local providers, except where a training option is not available; then they must look outside the area. This can discourage mobility and limit real choice for the unemployed. The qualifications are mainly restricted to NVQs. Recently a client wanted to study for a City and Guilds qualification in photography, but he was unable to access that through New Deal. He had to choose an NVQ and opted not to obtain a qualification but settled for 13 weeks' work experience.

285.

Participants between 18 and 24 can only access an NVQ Level 2. I cite the example of an unemployed person who had an NVQ Level 2 in hydraulics and pneumatics and a Level 2 in welding, which he got through the Jobskills programme. He got a job in Mackies and thought that he was set for life. He is now unemployed and has been called into New Deal. He would love to become fully qualified in welding.

286.

Providers' main strengths are that they are long-established community groups and some of them have developed New Deal projects. One group in the Shankill works with part-funding with the Probation Board and has a voluntary option for young offenders to work on their personal development; it can also selectively place them in the community. Some have dropped out because their behaviour was not acceptable, but this option is used to bring them back on board.

287.

In our Turf Lodge project the provider has gained European funding to build a family centre. He accesses the New Deal client under the employed option, and young offenders are trained in bricklaying and joinery as they build the centre. A weakness for the community groups is that many providers rely solely on New Deal funding and depend on numbers coming through.

288.

Their other weakness is that they lack knowledge about changing employment trends and skill needs in industry. Although they are using New Deal to meet services in the community, they cannot access information to develop skills for full-time employment. All the providers have found that the six-month and 13-week terms are too short. They have no sooner got people into a work routine, particularly those with low motivation, before those people must go. It will have taken some of them, particularly those who have been unemployed for over five years, 13 weeks just to get into a routine.

289.

As regards our strengths as lead partner, our main role is to interview clients and give them independent advice on the providers and training organisations so that they have as much information as possible before deciding on where to go. Our main weakness is that our computer system - the system provided by the Training & Employment Agency (T&EA) - is not adequate for New Deal administration. As a result a large amount of paperwork must be computerised, and that is taking us away from our main role. The T&EA is looking at the computer system and at the forms required, but it is a cumbersome system to administer.

290.

The other problem with being the lead partner is that we are funded on the numbers that come through New Deal. These fluctuate and that makes planning uncertain. We receive no information from the T&EA or the Social Security Agency (SSA) to enable us to plan on how many will be coming through in the next six or nine months. Another weakness is that our New Deal staff is short-term - this also applies to the community groups - so we constantly have to update new staff on the system.

291.

As regards liaising with the T&EA, the main strength is that the New Deal has had more success than any previous Government programme in bringing together a wide variety of cross-community providers from different areas with a common goal. In two of our three jobcentres we interview the clients on site. From a very early stage that enabled us to develop good relationships with the personal advisers. I have worked with unemployed people for 12 years, and this programme is the first to create a real partnership rather than "them and us". The main problem is the computer system, and that has been compounded by staffing problems. Vacancies for personal advisers are unfilled, and two of our offices have backlogs. There are not enough personal advisers to deliver New Deal in our area.

292.

The Chairperson: We have only 20 minutes for questions. Do you want to say anything else?

293.

Ms Lyons: There are some figures behind our presentation, but we will not go through them now.

294.

Mr J Kelly: What role do advisers play in New Deal and how does that affect you? How well is the process working in west Belfast?

295.

Ms McLernon: Two personal advisers told me that they had caseloads of 130 and 102. That includes all the New Deal options, such as disability and lone parent schemes, not just the ones that we deal with. That is too many to be able to develop relationships. One of the problems is that once people come off options they do a three-month follow-through.

296.

A person might be with our provider, then leave, and then undertake the follow-through with a personal advisor. We cannot deal with them in the interview period even though there is a backlog of clients. Since other roles are involved in the process there is not the flow of people that there should be. When personal advisers deal with clients, particularly if a client is a volunteer or is coming through a particular option, our providers prefer these applications to be processed fairly quickly. They do not see the point in holding on to somebody if they have a decision to make. The problem arises when somebody wants to sit all 13 weeks. That is difficult to deal with.

297.

Mr J Kelly: What is your position as regards computers?

298.

Ms Lyons: The New Deal West System was bolted on to what was effectively a Jobskills monitoring system. It was not designed for that purpose. They know that as well as we do. It was very improvised; and when our providers wanted information on forecasting, it was not readily available. This meant that Ms McLernon's team had to concentrate more on administration, and that diminished the quality of the personal attention to the client.

299.

Mr J Kelly: What is the solution?

300.

Ms Lyons: Apparently ICL has been commissioned to design a system from scratch. This time they have consulted providers, to an extent, to ensure that our queries are answered and not just the T&EA's.

301.

Whether this system is perceived as working well in west Belfast depends on how it is measured. Of course it has reduced unemployment in west Belfast; primarily because people who were claiming illegally can no longer do so. It has been a great success.

302.

Some of the people we deal with have had huge success, which has been the key to getting employment. Others have struggled. It comes down to the individual and the range of personal issues that he or she has to deal with: literacy and numeracy, low motivation, lack of confidence or personal and family problems. A lone parent with five children overcame all difficulties to become a Microsoft master in 13 weeks. Others still struggle with literacy and numeracy. There have been varying degrees of success, depending on the individual.

303.

The Chairperson: Your summary is very interesting, especially page four where you have listed the outcomes. However, I find this quite hard to interpret. What percentage of the people you are dealing go into long-term jobs?

304.

Ms Lyons: Unfortunately that figure is not available. This is another illustration of how we collect figures. Employment outcomes and qualifications are measured for some programmes but not for others. It is broken down into individual programmes because it would be difficult to aggregate. People who complete the programmes move into employment, but those who do not also move into employment.

305.

The Chairperson: Thank you, and thank you for the additional information you supplied. We might get back to you for clarification. The Committee wishes your work every success.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 7 September 2000

Members Present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:
Mr T Wright ) New Deal Co-ordinator, Bryson House

306.

The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee I welcome Mr Trevor Wright, representing Bryson House, who will be giving us another perspective on New Deal from the voluntary sector.

307.

Mr Wright: We are currently a full partner in the New Deal consortia in South and East Belfast and Castlereagh and the consortium in North Belfast and Newtownabbey. We are an associate member of the West Belfast consortium. We offer placements in the New Deal 18 to 24 for voluntary and environmental, and the intensive activity period for the over 25s. To date we have had just under 300 people pass through the scheme since our first trainee in August 1998. We have also become involved in the New Deal employment option and have employed 11 people through that - 8 are still employed with us and the others have moved on to new employment.

308.

We became involved in New Deal because we had a long history with the ACE programme, having been involved with it since it started in 1981. We were also aware that the idea for the programmes for long term unemployment was changing. We were involved before the demise of ACE and knew what was going to happen. We had a very successful ACE programme with 60-75% of the people going through with a positive outcome of employment or further training.

309.

Since the introduction of former ACE sponsors into the consortia in South and East Belfast and Castlereagh we have taken on responsibility in an advisory capacity. We also do the administration for VSB South City Community Projects, St George's, Ulster Historical Foundation and the Northern Ireland Chest, Heart and Stroke Association. We are responsible for the submission of claims and advising them on the administration of the programme.

310.

We have created a number of projects that are currently on offer specifically targeting New Deal. We wanted to do something that would be positive and interesting and show people that they could achieve something. One is 'No Age to Going Age', an energy efficiency project dependent on New Deal placements. We run the project in Belfast, and it has been replicated in Newry, Enniskillen and Coleraine. We have also been involved in the Innovation Fund, having won a contract for that last year. We try to look at projects that are interesting, different, innovative and challenging for people. Along with the placements that we would operate within the charity itself we would work a great deal with other charities in Belfast that are not in a consortium but are happy to take placements. Obviously, since the demise of the ACE programme they miss out on that. We provide placements to organisations we are involved with.

311.

The Chairperson: Thank you. Would you be willing to take questions for 10 minutes?

312.

Mr Wright: Yes, that is fine.

313.

Ms McWilliams: Thank you for your very honest paper. It gives us a good insight into what you are expected to deal with. I note that you say that the focus is on the jobless, but it seems to me that quite a lot of time is taken up with other aspects that led to unemployment. You are listing quite an incredible range of things - homelessness, ex-offenders, people with alcohol and substance dependencies, mental illness and, on top of that, literacy and numeracy problems. How is such a programme expected to deal with all of that? Is that really the crux of the problem?

314.

Mr Wright: It is extremely difficult because we, as provider, are limited to the number of people we have working on the programme, and we can to a certain degree determine that there are problems with some people. We try to work with that but it is extremely difficult. To actually get people to address those problems, you have to move them to a stage where they are willing to take responsibility. That does not always happen and very often people will move through the programme, and we will be aware of their problems - for instance, we had a young guy who after four months wanted to know if he could get help for alcohol abuse, but it took him four months to get to the point of recognising that he had a problem. It is difficult. There are so many different types of problems.

315.

We are a charity, and these are the types of clients we deal with. We do have some support in the charity itself, but there are some areas where it is difficult to come up with anything except moving someone to a placement, trying to manage the placement with them and managing them through the placement to see if they can address their problems. If somebody is on for 13 weeks, you are barely starting to form a relationship before they have to go.

316.

Ms McWilliams: Would it be right to say that 13 weeks as a design for a placement is insufficient time to address some of these problems you are talking about? If you were to retailor this programme, would that be one of your first criticisms and a priority in redesigning it? What I am leading up to is that this has been designed for Britain, not Northern Ireland. In addition, you point out the inadequacy of the length of the placement, and it seems to me terribly short to do any useful work. Is there anything else that you would tailor to suit Northern Ireland circumstances?

317.

Mr Wright: It is a Great Britain programme trying to be manipulated into something that will suit Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland has very unique problems. We have had 30 years of strife. We have had long-term unemployment. We have dealt with people who have come through to the scheme having been unemployed for 19 years. They are coming in to do 13 weeks, and they are wondering what it is going to lead to. The answer is that it may not lead to anything. The employer is still not going to be interested in people who do 13 weeks if they have not worked for 20 years. There needs to be something either before, or after, or both to bring those people in and move them from where they are now to where they need to be, but it has to be done in stages. They come in and it is as if they accept their lot. They are not willing to look beyond what they are doing. I have asked people what they would like to be doing in two years, and it has stunned them to even think two years ahead. Some people will say that they will probably still be unemployed. That is their attitude - they do not see that there is a way out. There might be something they can do, but they do not just take that on board.

318.

A lot of work needs to be done with people to try to get them to see the possibilities. Sometimes they may begin to see that after 13 or 26 weeks. However, more often than not the programme is over and they go back on to Jobseeker's Allowance.

319.

Mr Dallat: What could be done with New Deal that would enable you to give young people a better vision of the future, while addressing some of the social issues which your charity is well renowned for addressing. You spoke with some affection about ACE, and I want to know in what respect New Deal fails where ACE could have delivered. How could that be compensated for?

320.

Mr Wright: I speak affectionately about ACE because I came through the ACE scheme in Bryson House. There is a danger in getting too affectionate about it because the people who are on New Deal are quite different from those who were on ACE.

321.

The people who were on the ACE scheme applied for those jobs, and even though they were ACE jobs, people could still apply for them. A lot of people we would deal with in the age group from 18 to 24 have come through an education system in which they have not achieved anything. They left school at age 16 and they entered a YTP scheme. I have yet to meet anybody who went into a YTP scheme and came out with something at the other end. The programme did not do anything for them.

322.

Those people would have been processed through the Jobskills programme. That is a process which meets the requirements of the training organisation, because they have so many places in stores and warehousing, painting and decorating, but there has not really been any work done on determining what the young person wants.

323.

There is a certain amount of effort needed in trying to encourage young people to make decisions, and you need to work on that. It is termed "soft skills" and it is about young people developing personal ideas about what they want to do. Very often they are in the situation where they are waiting for something else to happen. They are waiting to be told the next programme they will be going on. It is that type of attitude that we are trying to break. It is a bit like taking control of your life and making decisions for yourself.

324.

We look at different areas. We work with families likely to have children who will be going through this process and we are developing a more holistic approach so that we can work with them to identify problems at a younger age and see if we can help in different ways. We are only one organisation. Our impact, although great on the individual, is not going to be great in terms of numbers.

325.

Mrs Nelis: If I am correct, the budget for New Deal is approximately £60 million this year. It is an enormous sum. What you are saying, Mr Wright, has been said from the outset. Many of those from the voluntary sectors have expressed concern that New Deal was a UK scheme and did not give any special consideration to the differences in Ireland. The changeover has had a tremendous impact on the community and voluntary sectors, particularly in terms of actually putting in the hard work that was done when ACE went out of business. We have the benefit trap as far as lone parents are concerned and issues around timescales and qualifications. All those things are genuinely concerning. They discriminate against the long-term unemployed on the equality of opportunity basis set out in section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. There is also pressure on the 18-24 age group in terms of them being coerced into schemes through loss of benefits. Do you think that this enormous amount of public money is actually meeting Government policy, and is it, more importantly, delivering the goods in terms of the unemployed? Should there be a rethink as far as New Deal is concerned, given the particular situation here, and could that money not be better spent?

326.

Mr Wright: In my opinion a rethink is needed. It is now becoming clear that certain things are not happening under New Deal. If 18-to-24-year-olds are returning to New Deal after six months, 20% are being retained in employment, and the number of NVQs is extremely low. Most of the people who come through this programme have to do NVQs and really do not understand the point of doing three units of an NVQ. They are also aware that employers do not understand the point of having three units of an NVQ either.

327.

Another thing I would like to say about NVQs is that because of the demands of the NVQ awarding bodies and the NVQs that are available, it is very difficult for people to gather sufficient experience in placements in the voluntary sector because of the type of work that they are doing. Many people see that they could be doing more relevant things. There needs to be a rethink; those issues need to be addressed. In Great Britain, people do not come along and say "No. I am not going there. I am not going to that part of Belfast". Here they do. It does need a serious rethink. We are told that it is going to be re-evaluated at the end of the current contract, but people are saying that it needs to be done now. What will happen to the people that are there now?

328.

Mr Beggs: In your recommendations you talked about reviewing the consortia approach and restructuring it if necessary. Would you talk about some of the alternative options? I would appreciate your thinking there. Secondly, in terms of qualification structure, you mentioned a couple of times that some of the qualifications for which people are being forced to study are not appropriate. What would be the best alternative to those?

329.

Mr Wright: Let us look at the consortia first. The idea of the consortia was around before New Deal came along, and it was all about getting organisations to work together. Having been involved mainly with the two consortia that we were in, we have found that it is very much a case of each to his own in terms of "You are in there; you do your own marketing, you get your own people in". In terms of having to meet the Quality Performance Management Framework standards, we worked on our own on that, although we did get support from one of the consortia lead partners, but not the other. We pay the money, and they get a percentage of the money that comes in to the programme. The lead partners are, more than usually, training organisations which have more experience in terms of T&EA-funded programmes, but they also have multiple contracts with the T&EA, so if we go to them and say "We are not happy with this, or with that" we are not entirely certain whether they are going to bring that to the attention of the T&EA. They are obviously looking after their own interests as much as they are looking after the other consortium members.

330.

I mentioned in the paper that I have been to Glasgow where there is a voluntary sector consortium. It handles all the voluntary sector organisations so the New Deal adjustments are passed through the employment office to the consortium, and then they are - distributed, I suppose is the best word - amongst different voluntary sector organisations. So there is more of an opportunity for the voluntary sector to have a vote. There is, at present, a bit of a divide and conquer aspect. Everyone is all over the place and looking out for themselves. They have got themselves involved in a programme that needs numbers, and they need to ensure that the numbers are there and that the money is coming in.

331.

In relation to qualifications, they are demanding more work-based evidence. In the NVQ in using IT, for instance, standards have recently been changed.

332.

We often have people who are referred through to do IT as part of their training, but they are not working in a solely IT-based environment. They often will not have any previous experience in IT. They would be better off doing something like a CLAIT certificate followed by a Stage II certificate. Both of these are achievable within a similar period of time as the programme. Both are also recognised as full certificates by employers, and do not come across as part of an NVQ.

333.

We have a large number of people interested in obtaining things such as forklift or truck licences. We have paid for two people to go through HGV because it could not be funded as it was not an NVQ. One of those was in the 18-24 group and the other was over-25. We paid for the 18-24 out of our funding. We do not get training money for the over-25s.

334.

There are other qualifications that people can get, such as driving lessons. People can identify that if they could drive, they could get a certain job. We offer that to some people if we think it is achievable within the period of time they are on the programme with us.

335.

Training in personal development should be seen as something that is just as important as going through a unit of NVQ, if not more. You have people coming in who have literacy problems. They have gone through a system where they did not feel they achieved anything when they were at school, or when they were on YTP or Jobskills, and they are now saying "What am I likely to achieve by doing this?" More thought and creativity is needed when looking at that.

336.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much Mr Wright, that has been very interesting.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 7 September 2000

Members Present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:
Ms D McAleese ) Enterprise Ulster
Mr C Martin )

337.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon. Enterprise Ulste^r is a body which has been working with the long-term unemployed for some time and is involved with many New Deal consortia.

338.

Ms McAleese: At Enterprise Ulster (Coleraine) we are involved as lead partner with Coleraine and Ballymoney, a recently merged consortia, and as an option provider within the Limavady consortium.

339.

The Chairperson: Would you like to give us some details of your background and then take some questions?

340.

Ms McAleese: I work for Enterprise Ulster, which has been around since 1973 working with the long-term unemployed. I have been involved with New Deal since its inception in April 1998. Today I would like to talk you through my role as both lead partner and option provider and to give you an account of my experiences on the programme from both those roles. As lead partner of Coleraine and Ballymoney I see my main functions as managing the consortium; acting as a reporting agent between the consortium, T&EA and other relevant bodies; managing the financial side of claims to the T&EA; and paying out claims to partners and sub-contractors and the infamous quality system which is now being implemented. Being an option provider I also manage and deal with participants on the programme on a daily basis. This allows me to see issues that need to be addressed with New Deal.

341.

As you probably are aware, when New Deal started in April 1998 it was slow to get off the ground. Our intake began about September 1998. We slowly increased numbers on the consortium, peaking around September 1999 with, as you can see from my paper, an average occupancy in that consortium of 43 on the 18-to-24-year-old programme and 86 on the 25-plus programme. Numbers remained relatively stable until about April of this year, and since then have been in rapid decline to an average occupancy rate of approximately 29 on the 18-to-24-year-old programme and 22 on the 25-plus programme.

342.

This, in itself, can lead to difficulties for organisations in the management of the New Deal. They are expected to deliver the same level of service regardless of numbers on the programme. I am sure that members are aware that the numbers on the programme have financial implications in terms of what an organisation hopes to gain from managing the programme. Enterprise Ulster, as a partner and option provider, has, in my view, been very flexible with the programme. We have always been there, managing the numbers when they were high and also when they have been low. Prior to New Deal, I worked in a team of five people operating from one office. That is now extended to two sites, with a staff of 11. Community-based programmes have doubled.

343.

The corporate organisation has increased its transport fleet to accommodate the numbers on the programme and to make options available to participants. A previous contributor referred to the 13-week programme and its limitations. Thirteen weeks is certainly a very short time for people to achieve much from a programme. Enterprise Ulster has sought to provide a progression route for those participants, and it can now merge and pass participants on to the mainstream programme, where they can have a year working towards a qualification, with the ultimate goal of moving into employment. They are not necessarily going to be left high and dry. We offer that programme, although we cannot force people to move onto it. It is an option - it is there for Enterprise Ulster's New Deal participants.

344.

Because of the peaks and troughs in numbers, I have found that option providers in my consortium have opted to become subcontractors of the programme. They find it difficult to manage the uncertain numbers on the programme. In such cases, Enterprise Ulster bears the responsibility for the participants and the costs involved. Probably another reason for becoming a subcontractor is the quality system known as the Quality Performance Management Framework (QPMF) that has been imposed upon the programme. It is an extensive system that can be difficult and quite expensive for some organisations to comply with.

345.

Regarding QPMF, the previous contributor referred to lead partners and the assistance that he was given. In our role as lead partner, I think that any option provider in the consortium would say that we were the driving force behind working towards the award. We have given every help and assistance that we could. We devised our development plans in co-operation with them and worked closely with them to ensure that they were working towards, and meeting, the standards. We are all about to be assessed for the award.

346.

The problem that I, as a lead partner, see with the programme, is that when a participant is referred to a programme, to undertake any option, the information at that point of entry is limited to what the personal adviser provides. The lead partner is expected to carry out a referral interview, which lasts approximately half an hour, and then place the person onto an option within a maximum of two weeks. We often find that participants are not even aware of New Deal or of what they are doing on the programme. We have had to spend time recapping issues that should have been covered in Gateway - although not to the same extent now, with the introduction of Core Gateway.

347.

Still I would say that 30% of our participants coming at the referral stage were not aware of New Deal, and you are still spending that referral interview stage briefing them on the programme. Enterprise Ulster has devised its own New Deal leaflet, and we go through it at the referral stage in detail with clients so that they are aware of what is happening to them before we begin to implement the goals on their action plan.

348.

The Chairperson: You are saying that some people, having already gone through the Gateway period, do not understand the programme.

349.

Ms McAleese: Yes. That is true for about 30% of my cases anyway. I am speaking from my own experience. That is the Core Gateway programme that I am talking about. In Coleraine there are three Core Gateway providers, of which we are one. There are others providing that service, and I am not sure whether everybody goes through the Core Gateway process. That action point was iterated to us in a report from the Education and Training Inspectorate in a recent audit that they carried out. As a Core Gateway provider I see what information is attained from that process, and I see that that would be valuable to a lead partner in placing somebody on to an option.

350.

Therefore I would expect that to be on an action plan, and it is very limited what you receive on an action plan in terms of that. Because it is not on the action plan you are expected to reassess that candidate who may have been assessed a few weeks before. That can be a problem for the person in that you have to recap on ground that has already been covered.

351.

As an option provider there is one main concern I have with regard to the NVQ programme. I fully recognise and respect the route that New Deal takes, and in most cases people are able to work towards the specified three units of a full NVQ Level 2. In the last six months, especially with the 25-plus programme, we have witnessed a large number of referrals coming through with basic skills needs, and they are very keen for these to be addressed. The funding does not provide for training within the 25-plus programme. You are expected to provide whatever training is needed from your running costs. There is funding for training in the 18-to-24-year-old programme, but recently I have experienced a degree of inflexibility in terms of the qualifications that a particular person must run with on the programme. There needs to be a greater awareness in the T&EA that not everybody can walk in off the street and undertake three units of an NVQ, even at Level 1. That would probably be the strongest point that I want to make.

352.

Mr Dallat: I am glad to see someone from Kilrea. With Monica in and out, we are well represented. I want to go back to the fluctuating numbers. Are you making a case for some better financial arrangement which would give you a more manageable budget?

353.

Ms McAleese: We are in the process of doing that. I am involved in the lead partner forum, and there are representatives from that forum liaising with the T&EA. The numbers reflect your financial situation, and I am not saying that we should go back to a situation whereby the T&EA should pay us for having numbers on the programme. However, the numbers on the programme do reflect your ability to deliver the programme. The goalposts of the lead partner and the option provider have continuously moved since the inception of New Deal. For instance, the QPMF is an enormous task and the lead partner is expected to have themselves and the partners ready. If you are in a large consortium that can be difficult and expensive. We were given a day's training in terms of being an internal quality assessor and were then expected to go out and make sure that all partners met that award.

354.

There are other reasons for looking at an increased financial package, my own being that Enterprise Ulster is now moving the initiative forward. We shall be an accredited centre for delivering basic and key skills training, something we are doing independently. I feel that the financial package should be there to help people. After all, the programme is there to meet the individual's needs, and there should be some way of allowing consortia to deliver. Currently, there is no package to do so, no matter if one is working in a small or large consortium. In larger consortia it is certainly easier because of the financial gain derived from the programme. Smaller consortia are still facing difficulties from clients coming on to the programme in need of special assistance without having the money for them.

355.

Mr Dallat: I feel the Committee should take your case seriously, for you represent an area with high rates of social deprivation. I can relate to some of the people you have in mind, those who simply do not fit into a pigeon hole.

356.

Ms McAleese: Exactly.

357.

Mrs Nelis: Thank you for a very informative presentation, Ms McAleese. The major problem you raised was the difficulty experienced by people entering the New Deal and attempting to access an NVQ, something which will impact on whether they find employment. The latest report by the Industrial Society ascertained last week that 40% of New Deal recruits cannot read basic instructions.

358.

Since New Deal came into being, and even during its predecessor, the ACE scheme, people were flagging up the issue of the lack of basic literacy and numeracy skills. I hoped that New Deal would grasp the nettle and address this, but listening to you today, it seems that has not happened. This is a very serious matter, and the Committee should pay particular attention to it in the light of the fact that the first, Gateway phase is seriously underfunded when it comes to dealing with it. It is left to the providers to come up with their own funding to try to give people the basic skills.

359.

Ms McAleese: As you see from my paper, I am the first to commend the Core Gateway programme. As a lead partner and Core Gateway provider, I have seen a tremendous change in the referrals. Even the reluctance to join the programme is not as bad as at the beginning, as people are well informed.

360.

However, part of that Core Gateway is to carry out a diagnostic test on participants to determine their level so that the information can be used by the personal adviser. I have personally assessed candidates, and some of them have come up at below entry level, which means that they are not ready to move into an NVQ Level 1 and that they need some assistance in the form of basic skills training to move them up to entry level, where they could begin to think about Level 1 units.

361.

In the four-page progress report which goes back to the personal advisers, we detail this information, yet receive referrals for people to work towards NVQ Levels 2 and 3 regardless of that finding. I am concerned that the information is not being used. There is a 20-week pre-vocational option in the New Deal, but in my two and a half years working on the scheme, I have never had anyone referred to me to undertake it. We have asked for people to do so, but it has never come about. I also feel that the mainstream Gateway programme could be further utilised. If someone is diagnosed at Core Gateway stage as having a need, there are inbuilt features in the Gateway programme to address it before they move on to an option.

362.

Mrs Nelis: They are not being adopted.

363.

Ms McAleese: They are not being offered, especially since the introduction of Core Gateway. People are quickly moved into an option, which is sometimes simply not the best route for them.

364.

Mr Carrick: I should like to ask a question on value for money. In the administration and structure of New Deal, when one hears about consortia, lead partners, members, associate members, providers, personal advisers, participants, one begins to wonder whether we are delivering an efficient service? From your experience in Coleraine and the north-west, could you let us have your thoughts on whether that machinery could be streamlined and yet provide an even better service.

365.

Ms McAleese: I certainly think so. I am not running down New Deal but I do believe that a similar programme needed to be introduced at the time, as we were dealing with a society where reliance on benefits was accepted as a right. This was an issue which needed to be looked at and New Deal came in quite quickly to the Province and, no doubt, was a shock to people. It involved a lot of work for training organisations to get it up and running in the time available. I recognise that a similar programme is certainly needed.

366.

From my own experience, we run a mainstream programme which is voluntary. As Trevor Wright said, when he referred to the ACE people who had applied for those jobs, the difference was unbelievable. The workload was much reduced. The clients were there because they wanted to be there. If we can develop something which is more flexible to their needs you will find clients less difficult to deal with. I have already found this to be true with the introduction of Core Gateway. People are better informed as to what they have to go through. Ignorance can frighten people, and because of this they tend to put barriers up with regard to joining the programme and this causes problems for providers.

367.

The programme should provide more information and be more flexible. In the 18 - 24 year old programme, it takes six months to work through three units of an NVQ. An employer would ask, "what use are these three units?". The response is that if they come back on to the programme for another six months they can complete another three units. It is a long time before someone gets a half of an NVQ. We need to extend the time that they have on the programme, even up to a year, and have the programme based in such a way that the NVQ route is not the only route. It does say in the guidelines that the NVQ route is not the only route, but when you challenge that or try to get someone to work towards a different type of qualification it is usually rejected.

368.

Mr Carrick: What is your view of the bureaucratic structure, from the T&EA right down to the participant? Is this all necessary?

369.

Ms McAleese: I can see the need for it when there are large numbers on the programme. The T&EA has personal advisers who are there to deal with clients and to pass them on to the lead partners who then, in turn, will pass them on to the option provider. There are quite a lot of lead partners and personal advisers in the T&EA. I am not sure if they are all needed or not. At one time, in my area, there were about 10 personal advisers between Coleraine and Ballymoney with three training staff in Enterprise Ulster, as lead partner. With this number we can manage to spend more in-depth time with the person and be with them day in and day out for the duration of the programme.

370.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much, Danielle and Carl, for coming this afternoon. It was very interesting, and I am sure it will have an effect on our considerations in this matter.

top
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 7 September 2000

Members Present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr J Kelly
Mrs Nelis
Ms McWilliams

Witnesses:
Ms D McElwee )
Mr D Gillespie ) North West Institute
Mr Q Forbes )

371.

The Chairperson: Will you set the scene for about five minutes, and then take some questions.

372.

Ms McElwee: We sent some earlier documentation which we will cover in this outline. We assume that you have a fair knowledge of New Deal and what is happening on the ground. First, we will focus on the roles that the North West Institute plays and these are threefold. We act as a lead partner for two consortia, one in Derry City Council and the other in Strabane District Council. We were also proactive in the establishment of the informal forum for lead partners and we also act in the North West Institute as a training provider for the New Deal client. We have been involved since the outset of New Deal in 1998 and we have one of the larger consortia, particularly in the Derry area, and probably the largest outside Belfast.

373.

When we first applied to be involved in New Deal we realised the type of activities that were involved but I do not think anyone realised the extent of the administrative workload involved in the programme for a lead partner. From the setting up of the consortium in Derry there were 17 partners and 7 subcontractors. In Strabane there are 25 partners and we have to get people who had previously been competitors, to work together on a programme with a common goal. So there is a heavy administrative burden and we have very effective and good working relationships now with our partners and with the local Training and Employment Agency and the Training and Employment Agency headquarters. The role also expanded to training and development of other partners with the onset of the Quality Management Framework. We did considerable training, particularly for smaller providers, who had not been involved in the Jobskills programmes previously and a number of quality workshops have taken place. Ultimately, our role as a lead partner is to ensure that the programme is administered as set out by the terms of the contract. In the early days of New Deal, a forum was established as a network to try to get lead partners across the Province together to address common issues and to see how to take that forward. It also looked at best practice and sharing activities or administrative ideas that might be helpful to us all. Having identified the issues, it was a case of finding a way of taking them forward.

374.

Four other departments and ourselves, meet with the T&EA in Adelaide House on a regular basis to address a number of issues. To date, these issues have included funding and we have also looked at the administrative workload. There was a funding review in the past and we are looking at another one currently. There has also been a review of forms, and the number of forms involved in the New Deal process has been reduced significantly.

375.

We have also addressed such things as Core Gateway. Last year there was a joint workshop set up where working groups got together to look at different issues. There were representatives there from providers, lead partners, the Social Security Agency and the T&EA. This workshop proved very useful and will be repeated this year.

376.

We have also looked at the various roles of people involved in New Deal. Positions such as that of personal adviser were examined and inconsistencies were found in their roles across the Province.

377.

Finally, as a provider we are an institute of further and higher education providing a range of information which is pertinent to the New Deal up to Level 3.

378.

The previous speaker mentioned that there is some concern about flexibility. It is a programme targeted by ability and employment and therefore it has a vocational focus, but there have been times when another programme of a lesser or a higher nature and perhaps more academic may have suited some of the clients. The timescale involved is another issue to be considered. For example, in full-time education and training there is a 52-week period but there are some programmes that require a longer timespan.

379.

These are some issues that the Committee might consider. There is also the issue of differential funding in some of the options. The full-time education option does not include this funding so the client does not receive the £15·38 that is available to those on other options. Therefore it might not seem a good way forward for the unemployed person.

380.

With the T&EA, we are beginning to look at performance indicators such as retention and movement into employment. That will be ongoing in the Quality Management Framework. To date, the burden of administration has tended to have the focus of our attention and we would like to get away from that and look at the real quality issues.

381.

There is also the issue of what employment opportunities are available. Speculative training is necessary, and due to the nature of the programme it requires work experience that is currently available within the existing economic base. It is difficult to train people in skills if employers are not there to place them with. I do recognise that there is some scope for speculative training in other Agency programmes such as Bridge to Employment and it is another avenue that could be explored.

382.

There is also a need for the ongoing development of the programmes and a need to continue working closely with the T&EA. We need to work with those who are operating on the ground and hear what is happening.

383.

Mr J Kelly: In his paper, Mr Wright referred to the difficulties in reconciling the number of people who went off the list with the black economy. How do you see that being addressed?

384.

Ms McElwee: Statistics show that the number of people on jobseeker's allowance dropped some 40%. This leaves those people who may or may not want to go on to the programme with no other option. To some extent that leaves lead partners and providers with a group of people who are not keen to go on the programme and are therefore more difficult to work with.

385.

They have to be persuaded and cajoled, and so on. The whole area of statistics in the programme is difficult, because of the way the systems are set up and the different timescales. We have tried to follow people up, but it is very difficult to get people to come back to you in the sixteen-week period they have to find employment. This is something that we will need to keep working at in terms of getting real statistics that are meaningful.

386.

Mr J Kelly: I am looking through your lead partner responsibilities and I notice you have to ensure that criminal records are checked out - that is a thorny one. I know that people who are coming out of prison, having served sentences that related to what has been happening for the last 30 years, find great difficulties in even opening a bank account. Do you make provisions for that?

387.

Ms McElwee: The system is basically a form of ongoing checking, and it is really pertinent to people in childcare.

388.

Mr Forbes: That is done only in respect of people that are going into placements where they will be dealing with children and other vulnerable groups. It is not done right across the board. Only those who committed those sort of offences would be precluded.

389.

Mr Hay: Three issues are emerging very clearly: the flexibility of the programme, the whole issue of the short term of 13 weeks, and the figures. The number of people that are coming through New Deal has certainly fallen. I am looking at your own figures here. What is most worrying in many aspects is that the concept of New Deal might have been a good one, but I think the difficulty lies in how it has been delivered. What are your thoughts on that, and how can that be resolved in the short term?

390.

Another question relates to your relationship as a provider, with the T&EA. How do you view that relationship? Do you see it being improved? What are the basic problems there?

391.

Ms McElwee: In terms of our relationship with the T&EA, in the Derry and Strabane context certainly, it is very good. In fact representatives from the T&EA come along to our lead partner meetings to give their perspective of issues that are new or ongoing. Our relationships are very good, and the staff on the ground are in and out of T&EA offices fairly frequently; they have worked on that. There has been the odd hiccup, but in the main, they are very good. We also have a good relationship with senior personnel in the T&EA in Adelaide House. We are all trying to get this right, but we know we must work at it.

392.

You mentioned the 13 weeks, Mr Hay. Yes, we recognise that, and it is something that has been raised with the Agency. People who have been out of work for 12 months or more are not going to move forward a great deal in 13 weeks. That is something we most certainly think needs to be addressed.

393.

Mr Beggs: The management of numbers can be difficult, and this has been raised by a number of other people who gave evidence to us.

394.

The figures you provided to 1 September 2000 show a slight reduction for the 18-24 age group. Do you see that reflecting an improved working situation, people finding employment rather than going onto New Deal in that age group, or do you see other reasons for that reduction? Secondly, with the 25-plus age group there is dramatic change between 1999 and 2000, from over 1100 to 161. Does that reflect the voluntary nature of this group? What do you see as the cause behind that huge drop?

395.

Finally, several people are saying that the NVQ Level 1 can be inappropriate for some people. What has been the response of the Training and Employment Agency to you when you repeatedly said this to them? What are they saying, because it is wasteful of trainers' time and scarce resources and the encouragement that New Deal is meant to be giving people to get back into employment if they are doing inappropriate courses?

396.

Mr Gillespie: We too have recognised that the figures have dropped. In the 18-to-24-year-old programme the initial figures we have given are 536 starts for the financial year. From this April to September 2000 the figures are 241. We actually do anticipate close to the same amount of people actually going through that programme by the time we come to April next year. The other obvious figure is the one for the 25-plus group, where 1170 went through in the year 1999 and only 161 to date. We do not anticipate the same figure.

397.

The only reason or explanation we have been able to find is that when New Deal for 25-plus started there was a huge number of people that had at that stage been unemployed for 18 months. We had to get those people through the system and there was a huge amount of referrals. Now that we have exhausted that amount of people we are entering a phase where people have to requalify to re-enter the programme again. This length of requalification is something that has been discussed with the T&EA. Whilst that number is low now, if the same 18 months unemployed criteria for entry stays and the economic base in Derry does not significantly change - in other words no huge inward investment by companies looking for staff - we would expect that figure to go up again. There will be a peak and trough cycle in dealing with participants. In the 18-24 group we do expect, both in Derry and in Strabane, the figures to be similar to last year. We anticipate and hope that it is not the same people all the time. Clearly some will remain and others will come back but we anticipate that at some stage the programme is going to assist at least some of them.

398.

On Level 1 qualifications, others have referred to its suitability to the programme and the need for basic skills. Locally, the Agency has responded pretty much along the guidelines and strategy for dealing with it, aiming qualifications towards the NVQ Level 1. Strategically through the Lead Partner Forum, at a senior level, the Agency has engaged with providers, specialist organisations and ourselves. They have asked what is the most appropriate type of qualification, what is the most appropriate form of delivery to people who have qualification needs less than possibly Level One and who possibly cannot meet that. Essentially the response from the Agency has been okay. They have acknowledged this; they want to know what they can do about it or how they can engage people about it. A working group has been set up which some lead partners and some providers have contributed to. It was discussed extensively last year in our workshop in Dungannon, trying to identify and come to a solution on basic skills, needs and requirements for those participants. It is not an easy one.

399.

Mr Beggs: There has been no outcome?

400.

Mr Gillespie: It is ongoing. The last letter to providers and lead partners we received was to have a response by the end of August, and that group is continuing its work.

401.

Mr Hay: There is no doubt that these figures show a serious fall-off through the entire New Deal. If those numbers continued their decline in the present dramatic manner, would that not call into question the whole issue of the scheme and what it is really delivering? It is a serious drop-off.

402.

Ms McElwee: On the subject of the drop-off, from our perspective the core of people left to join a programme would obviously be those requiring most attention. The whole delivery would have to be examined, for as Mr Beggs has said, they are likely to be people with difficulties achieving Level 1. As it stands, the programme is not really suitable for them.

403.

Mr Gillespie referred to a working group looking at basic skills. There is also a working group looking at those clients who have what might be termed multiple barriers to entering the programme, be they alcohol or drug abuse, or a variety of factors already mentioned, and various specialists are looking at that. We all recognise that there is a group of clients for whom New Deal does not cater.

404.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. You have stirred a great deal of interest, and I know there will be many more questions, but there are other people to talk to this afternoon.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 7 September 2000

Members Present:
Dr Birnie (Chairmperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:
Ms Gillian Kirk-Lyness ) Mount Zion Community Resource Centre

405.

The Chairperson: Perhaps you might give us a short summary of the work you are doing and your relationship to New Deal, afterwards taking some questions.

406.

Ms Lyness: Thank you very much for letting me come. I represent Hugh Casey, who unfortunately has another appointment and cannot be here today. Mount Zion House has been Mr Casey's dream for a long time. Shankill Community Projects, based in a predominantely Catholic area of Lurgan, ran with the ACE scheme during its lifetime. When we saw that ACE was coming to an end, as early as 1985-1986, we realised we had to put in contingency plans. At that stage Mount Zion House, a convent, came up for sale, and we took the brave decision to raise the funds to buy it.

407.

Many of our financial projections involved ACE and later New Deal. We are currently running quite a large deficit because of New Deal's not being successful. I am the centre manager and have been there for nine years, witnessing the ups and downs and seeing people start and finish ACE.

408.

We have had success stories. We got about 45% of people into employment. We first started to run with New Deal in August 1999. We did not want to run with it. We did not like the programme, but we had no choice. At first we had a lot of participants. The numbers were there, and we got around 25 maximum. We had a lot of angry people because it was not explained to them. When they came to us they had already seen personal advisers and been to the lead partner. They were being asked the same questions over and over again, so by the time they got to us they were very angry.

409.

We had the skills to deal with that. We have been dealing with people for a number of years. When people came here under ACE they wanted to be here. Under New Deal they do not. We dealt with it and had a very successful first four months. Then the numbers started petering out. We had been securing what were primarily ACE core jobs. We were trying to keep those going with the New Deal moneys coming in. Consequently we had to take a bit of a risk in keeping a couple of people on and hoping that the numbers were going to go up.

410.

To give you a bit of background about what we do, we have a foyer-style accommodation in the Mount Zion House complex. We have 40 bed spaces for 17-to-25-year-olds. We have a public restaurant and conference facility. The conference facility can seat up to 80 people. We have an excellent independent advice service. We have just opened a new childcare centre called Zion's Den, and we cater for 24 pre-school, 24 after-school and 28 nursery children from six weeks to four years of age. We have all our community services. Again, New Deal is a big part of that. Someone coming in for 13 weeks can give us 13 weeks of hands-on, and we can give them 13 weeks of experience. We do not try to do any NVQs or anything like that - in 13 weeks you could not. We give them health and safety training and on-the-job training. That is all we can do within 13 weeks. We have a diner's club, meals-on- wheels, environmental gardening - that is very limited because of numbers - and printing. We also have an IT suite, computer-based training in partnerships with the Upper Bann Institute and Queen's, and we have all our administrative support.

411.

As you can see, it is a huge complex. We want to make it work. The figures at the very start, the financial projections, rightly or wrongly included ACE/New Deal, and they have not come to fruition. We offer a large variety of placements. Minister Farren was with us last week to open our restaurant, and we had a meeting with him, the T&EA and our regional manager, Dara Shields. However, there was no movement. I understand that there is no magic wand.

412.

It would be ideal if New Deal were revamped. Take the good parts of ACE and New Deal and let us have people for longer than 13 weeks. We have not seen many 18-to-24-year-olds. We have had one or two through our books over the year. They seem to be disappearing, or perhaps they are attracted to a different type of organisation.

413.

The problems we have are with the figures not adding up and the suitability of the candidate. At the minute we are getting really the lowest of the low. I have a guy in at the minute, and if it is cloudy he cannot work. Those are the real issues. We are getting people who will never be employed, but organisations like ours can accommodate them and can give them some sort of employment.

414.

Another aspect of New Deal is the Quality Performance Management Framework, which the consortium members have been putting in place. It is a wonderful system that any organisation should invest in, but the time frame and the resources are not there to implement it. This is the correct procedure, but it has been forced upon us. We get kickback from lead partners - if you do not include this framework, then you are regarded as letting the whole consortium down and you will not be able to support New Deal.

415.

Hugh Casey has written to David Trimble and previously to John Fall. He has written a large number of letters over the years highlighting the ups and downs, and the pitfalls, of New Deal. Last week the 'Lurgan Mail' (24 August 2000) reported that the number of people signing on in this area has risen. The totals are now 1,197 men and 434 women. To reiterate what a number of people have said this afternoon: there are no easy answers, but there needs to be a programme for the long-term unemployed. New Deal is not it.

416.

The Chairperson: Thank you for your forthright, well-thought-out comments.

417.

Mr Carrick: No doubt the Mount Zion Project anticipated that there would be a role for New Deal to replace the ACE Scheme. That was one of the selling points of New Deal when some of us were fighting to retain the ACE scheme. You are obviously very disappointed. In the ACE scheme you were very involved in environmental projects. The scope from within your organisation to do this has now been practically eliminated. You are not carrying out environmental work, despite the fact that there is a demand for it in the area. How could New Deal be adapted to suit the demand in the area through your organisation?

418.

Ms Lyness: Last August, when New Deal began, we had quite high numbers and we were able carry out a lot of environmental work in the area. However, we had a lot of questions. When we received people from the T&EA, through the advisers, we were given one piece of paper and that was it. We did not know if these people were paedophiles, or if they needed any special help. We did not know anything about them. Therefore, we got people to fill in our own application form, where they had to declare any convictions. I did not want to be responsible for putting people who I did not know, and had no history of, into an estate where a lot of elderly people and children lived. We could also have been liable for burglaries. This was a problem with the ACE Scheme as well, but at that time we used PECS and had people vetted before employing them.

419.

I now have a beautiful new childcare centre in the grounds of Mount Zion and 25 people will be employed to run it. That is a problem. All of my staff who come into contact with children are put through PECS. Bringing somebody in from New Deal for a 13-week programme is not an option. However, I would like to have more stability so that I could do something for the community, because people are crying out for ordinary work to be done. Mount Zion House was assembled so that each area would be sustainable. The majority of the original staff would all have an ACE background, but we would train them in support skills for people coming in from New Deal. It is going to take us about 18 to 24 months to work towards a viable stage. New Deal is a bonus to us if we can get a few people in and then bring in more people for the 13-week programme. It is a bonus to them and to us, because it does mean more finance for us. But we have to have at least five people on New Deal to pay my supervisor. If I do not have five people on New Deal I am losing money. Currently, I have three but my supervisor is still employed, because tomorrow I do not know whether I am going to get some more referrals.

420.

Mr J Kelly: How do you think your current circumstances could be changed?

421.

Ms Lyness: I do not know. The criteria for New Deal are written, and they need to be tweaked. Dara Shields, Regional Manager for the T&EA has put the cards on the table and said New Deal was never there to be a replacement for ACE and we understand that. Surely there must be some sort of concessional period to let it kick in and work because we are going to lose the voluntary sector. The lead partner informs us every other month of how many people are leaving the consortium. Up to eight groups have already left the consortium for various reasons.

422.

Craigavon was a huge consortium. There are 26 in it. That is too many, whereas somewhere like Lisburn has perhaps two. I suppose the diminishing numbers are to our advantage, but even at that it is shocking that we are losing those groups, especially with the Lurgan/ Portadown flashpoint and so on. We lose people due to the problems in this area.

423.

Mrs Nelis: Thank you Ms Lyness. Firstly, I would like to commend you on an excellent community project. You provide a great service and that is a sad reflection on the ability of New Deal to address the community and voluntary sector on those issues which groups like yours are struggling to address. I have previously questioned the £60 million budget. It seems from some of today's submissions that a huge amount of it has been spent on administration, while groups like yourselves are struggling. It seems to be administratively, a very top heavy project to manage, and I wonder how that is impacting on the difficulties first of all in attracting referrals, providing programmes which will make the over-25s employable, and how participants feel if coming to the project without qualifications. We need to look at the administrative element of this project. Ms Lyness said that you have to have five people bringing referrals to keep a supervisor in place. It seems that these are crazy criteria. ACE was bad but this is very much worse.

424.

The emphasis should be on training; it should be on creating employability, not on numbers. This programme has a budget of £60 million, and that concerns me greatly. The fact that so many groups are leaving the consortium shows that New Deal is not meeting its objectives.

425.

Mr Dallat: I am sure that your expression "the lowest of the low" was a cry for help on behalf of people who have fared very badly in the education system and in society. How would you improve communication so that those who have fared badly could be helped?

426.

Ms Lyness: This has been debated at consortium meetings. The managers of the T&EA in Lurgan and Portadown have been advising us on how to solve the problem of communicating with participants. If somebody is being forced into a programme, he will not listen, no matter what is said to him. It is a shame, because a great deal of good work is being done in Lurgan and Portadown, which may go pear-shaped because of this antagonism. It can have a knock-on effect in the organisation.

427.

We have not had an easy time - Mount Zion is a former convent. We have to struggle to get finance for capital renovations and a new-build, because it was thought that Protestants or people from the ethnic minorities would not come because Mount Zion was seen as a Catholic building, which is right. We are trying, and we are getting there - we are doing our bit. The New Deal has not helped at all. We have tried to branch out by introducing Protestant "New Dealers", putting them in the south part of the town, near Mourneview. However, it did not work. We tried to work in partnership with the Church of Ireland, but in this particular area things did not work out. It was just so difficult.

428.

Forcing people to be here at 9.00am and forbidding them to leave before 5.00 pm, making them clock on and clock off and obliging them to tell their supervisor where they were going were norms that these people are not used to. We were seen as enforcers.

429.

Mr Carrick: Was Mount Zion put at a disadvantage because the lead partner was also a provider - a training establishment which could influence the numbers sent to other providers? Had they looked after themselves first?

430.

Ms Lyness: Yes. There is a great deal of unrest. It was a shame that the council pulled out at the last minute as it was supposed to be lead partner for the area. Wade Training then became the lead partner, and, as Mr Carrick observed, it is a provider. It has 36 on its books, while we have perhaps three. There is no equality.

431.

Mr Byrne: There is a recurring theme of falling numbers in most of the submissions. Are there too many providers of New Deal in the Portadown/ Craigavon area? Is there a reduction in the number of trainees? If so, where are they going?

432.

Ms Lyness: The numbers have definitely gone down, and no one knows where they are going. They could have been working on the black market and are staying on it. They could be signing on for benefit in a different capacity. I know, through talking to the T&EA, that when they receive a certain number of referrals they automatically halve the number called for interview because a certain proportion will not attend. Therefore, approximately half of the referrals will go on to the lead partner, who will be happy if half of those referrals actually turn up. So, from a total of 20 referrals you would be left with five to distribute.

433.

Mr Hay: That is a disaster.

434.

Ms Lyness: Then the bureaucracy starts again. The situation goes back to square one. It is very difficult.

435.

Ms McWilliams: I am concerned at the enormous differences between employers. Who evaluates the Quality Performance Management Framework?

436.

Ms Lyness: The T&EA.

437.

Ms McWilliams: Do they actually come out and see that everyone is working to the same standards?

438.

Ms Lyness: Yes.

439.

Ms McWilliams: You have told us that you just do not bother with NVQs.

440.

Ms Lyness: For those aged 25 and over we do not, because on a 13-week programme a person would not be doing an NVQ. We do for those aged between 18 and 24. But we are not an education provider. We are basically within the environmental voluntary sector. NVQs are not part of the criteria. We have dealt more with people who are 25 and over.

441.

Ms McWilliams: We will need to address the Charter for New Deal 25-plus, which is coming out in the literature. The performance indicators are as follows: "the opportunity of subsidised jobs with an employer; high quality work experience; high quality job share training; an opportunity to refresh existing, or gain new, skills; advice and guidance on self-employment", and so forth. If we consider what we have been hearing and put a tick alongside the appropriate performance indicators we would find that there is a big gap between what the indicators are expecting and what different people have been telling us about what is being provided.

442.

Ms Lyness: When you are on the ground and have New Deal participants you want to portray yourself as a professional organisation. You want to do your best for them and bring them on. You want to give them opportunities, whether it be through training in computers or through "people" communication skills. We have people who would find it difficult to use a telephone. When they are finished with us they are practically running the reception. That takes time, and a one to one approach. Five New Deal participants are not enough to occupy one supervisor - it just does not add up.

443.

Mr Beggs: Is there a critical mass? Are there a certain number of New Deal participants you must have to make the programme viable?

444.

Ms Lyness: Yes.

445.

Mr Beggs: Can there be a problem if there are too many providers?

446.

Ms Lyness: Yes. I suppose that we are at a critical stage where Peace 1 has run out and we are waiting for Peace II. We have had an amount of money and we are waiting to see who is going to get some contingency money. It is not easy for the voluntary sector at the moment. Over the last five years, the skills of the voluntary sector have gone up so much. We are not "Mickey Mouse" organisations any more. We are as professional as those in the public or the private sector.

447.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. It has been extremely interesting and helpful. We wish you all the best. You are welcome to take a seat at the back of the room if you wish to listen to the rest of the session. Thank you for your background notes also.

448.

Ms Lyness: I would like to extend a welcome to any of you to come to Mount Zion.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 7 September 2000

Members Present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:
Mr R Gamble )
Mr M Caher ) Department of Higher and Further Mr D Rogers ) Education, Training and Employment

449.

The Chairperson: Perhaps you would like to respond to some of the points that have arisen this afternoon. If you are agreeable, we would like to ask some questions.

450.

Mr Gamble: New Deal is part of the wider welfare-to-work programme of the Government which has minimum wage, working families tax credit and child care strategies involved in it also. The aim is to get people off welfare and into work where possible and give security to those who cannot work. In it, there is an element of compulsion from the Government's point of view, which has caused some problems from the start. However, that is the Government's policy.

451.

The New Deal is a national programme and we are operating on a pattern which will allow us some flexibility but not a great deal. It is not, therefore, open to us to make wholesale changes. Secondly, as programmes of this type go, it is quite a young programme. Most of it is less than two years in operation. It is quite innovative in many ways, so I do not think that anybody expected it to spring into action without any problems. We do know that there are problems. The important thing is, that there is a certain dynamism about the programme. It is being looked at very carefully and being evaluated more than any other programme I have ever come across in what is now becoming a rather lengthy career in the Civil Service.

452.

There have been changes introduced. You have heard about Core Gateway for example, which attempted to add some speed to the early part of the programme. There are workshops going on with the people who provide services; there was one last year and will be one this year. We have a New Deal Task Force which involves employers, unions, providers and also departmental officials. We are hearing about the programme through various channels. We know there are quite a number of things which ought to be looked at and perhaps done differently, but we have to find a way to do this.

453.

Another thing is that the circumstances have changed considerably since New Deal was introduced, largely because of the fall in the number of registered unemployed. As you have heard, that causes some problems for providers because some of them are obviously finding that, as far as numbers go, there is a question of viability. That may well mean that some kind of reorganisation and different delivery approach is needed.

454.

Another thing, which has also come up today, is that as we work through New Deal and the people who are more job-ready move out into the job market, the people who will still be on the programme and being dealt with by the providers and the personal advisers will be those who are more difficult to place and who have more types of problems. We have heard about some of these types of problems such as alcoholism and drug abuse. That means that New Deal's performance is probably going to look less good in the future because it will be more difficult for people with those kind of problems to be placed. Probably a lot more intensive work will have to be done with them.

455.

A final point is that we know that the quality of what is delivered has to be raised. We know that there are problems. There are a number of ways in which this is being looked at including on a national level by Tessa Jowell in Whitehall. We have been asking people involved in New Deal, providers, our own front-line staff, people in the Task Force, people in the education system and so on for suggestions as to how the whole thing might be made more flexible and what changes should be made. Some suggestions have already gone forward from Dr Farren to Tessa Jowell. Obviously, if this Committee also has suggestions, we would be very happy to include those in the national thinking process.

456.

Mr Byrne: In light of the experiences that we have heard in the earlier presentations, I think there is a real question about how the whole New Deal programme is currently working. I do not mean that in any antagonistic way towards the Department. The programme is not working, particularly for those who are long-term unemployed, and the short-term aspect of it is killing its potential. We need to make a serious attempt to have something tailored to the needs of the long-term unemployed in Northern Ireland. There is going to have to be a real commitment by officials and, indeed, by the Minister, to getting the New Deal in Northern Ireland tailored differently in order to meet our needs.

457.

There also seems to be a major problem about the referrals and the personal advisers. I am worried about the less than objective criteria that have been applied and how potential trainees are steered. If the system is quite simply about bureaucratic management and is not meeting the real needs of training young people or the long-term unemployed, then the exercise is not meeting what should be its real objectives.

458.

What should the real objectives of New Deal be? We in Northern Ireland will have to pose that in a wider context. Is it purely about getting people off welfare benefits, or is it about being proactive in providing quality training - as is written in so many documents? The evidence does not reflect quality training importance. What are your views about us making an attempt to have a revamped New Deal which does meet the needs of Northern Ireland?

459.

Mr Gamble: I will ask Martin to give his views as he has been with the New Deal since it began and indeed before it was actually launched.

460.

I hear what you say about the long-term unemployed, but I would not just write off New Deal on that. The long-term unemployed target group, as it is called in the jargon, the people who qualify for New Deal as long-term unemployed, is a group that has reduced very substantially over the last two years; it is about half of what it was. So things are happening; people are getting into jobs. People are moving off the register anyway, and a good proportion of them must be going into jobs. There are things that need to be done with some of the harder cases. The longer-term unemployed who have lost work disciplines and structure to their day are more difficult people to deal with. We recognise that there is going to have to be something more intensive done to try and help those people into work.

461.

You talked about training not meeting the objectives of the people going through New Deal. The picture is probably a bit patchy on that. I am sure there are places where the training is supplier driven. In other words, if you are a candidate for New Deal you may find yourself getting what is available rather than what you need.

462.

The quality of the training needs to be raised, because there are those sorts of problems. The ongoing review of the New Deal, particularly for the over-25s, to which Dr Farren is contributing, will help to improve the provision and give incentive to people to provide the kind of skills that are needed by the people themselves and by the economy. For example, special premiums could be given for skills that are in short supply.

463.

What should be the real objective for New Deal is essentially a political question. From the beginning, the emphasis has been not just to get people off the register but to get people into work and enable them to retain the jobs and to progress in them. That is the objective. Some people do see it as being a numbers game to reduce the unemployment level, but the stated objective is what I have just mentioned, and if we are not delivering that then we will need to think again.

464.

Mr Byrne: I am glad that you are saying that essentially the objective should be about providing training, but that then begs the question as to how you can have quality training over such a short period, especially for those who are coming from such a disadvantaged position.

465.

Mr Caher: In the New Deal 25-Plus there are three options. There is the employer's subsidy where if someone is job-ready the employer is paid £75 a week for six months to take him or her on. Secondly, if someone requires any further training or wants to do more vocational training, he or she can do up to one year towards NVQ Level 2 or 3. The third option is the IAP 13-week intensive training period.

466.

From the start we recognised that 13 weeks was too short, and we have always advocated a longer time. We think now that we are being heard and we are hopeful that from next April it will be extended up to 26 weeks. That will be a big help and we are confident that it will happen. We would like 26 weeks for everyone, and our Minister has written to Tessa Jowell seeking that. So changes will be happening from next April. The 13-week programmes should come to an end at that stage.

467.

Mr Beggs: It would be helpful if you could clarify what scope, if any, there is for change in Northern Ireland. My understanding is that it is a UK national policy. We have heard a range of suggestions from a variety of people today about where improvements might be made. Could you clarify if any of them come under your Department's control? I imagine people would be critical, for instance, of the requirement that people in the 25-Plus categories be unemployed for 18 months. It is too long a period, since they might become stale. I assume you see that as a national decision.

468.

I am also pleased you mentioned that the 13-week period of activity will be extended. There has certainly been much criticism of it. There is also criticism of the Department for its near insistence on the appropriateness of NVQs, irrespective of clients' level of ability. Does that come under your Department's responsibility? Is that a decision you can take yourselves without referring to central government? Has there been a failure in the T&EA to accept that reality?

469.

Mr Gamble: You are right that the 18-month stipulation is national policy. We have talked about 12 months, but the Treasury is insistent on 18 months for those aged over 25. It has to do with certain theories about allowing the labour market to work and letting people find work themselves if they can. Personally, I feel that six months is about the limit for that kind of thing, but there may well have been some feeling in the Treasury at the outset about the cost of allowing people in early or about the administrative difficulties of handling such a large number of people if the qualifying period were reduced for those aged over 25. I feel it is too long, and we have made representations about it, although so far without success.

470.

The 13-week period is also a national issue, and as Mr Caher has said, we are trying to have it extended. The New Deal is about getting people into work, so vocational qualifications such as the NVQ are an essential part of it. There are cases, such as those mentioned today, where someone might be able to get a job if they could receive assistance to gain a driving licence. Those are difficult issues about which I am not sure we have reached any kind of general policy, although in one or two cases the rules have been quietly bent to allow people to do things which seemed particularly appropriate for them, but which were perhaps not strictly regular. However, Mr Caher can tell you more about that.

471.

Mr Caher: There is some misunderstanding, which we are trying to remedy, about the system with NVQs. We insist, as a minimum, on three units of an NVQ, which is really not too much to ask. One of them has to be health and safety, and we should insist that people know about that aspect at least when they enter another environment. The second should be related to the job they eventually want to do. If they want a career in childcare, for example, it should be linked to that. The third can also be a key skill. This minimum is therefore not too much to ask, and we are paying £750, which is more than enough. We insist on this and would obviously like much more for the money, but we find people will not deliver anything if we do not insist on the minimum, and we will get nothing.

472.

They do not all have to do NVQ Level 2. They can do Level 1 or basic skills, and we do not insist on Level 2 for everyone if they are not able. There seems to be some misunderstanding about that. They can do NVQ Level 3 if they have already done NVQ Level 2 in exceptional circumstances, so there is already some flexibility.

473.

We want to ensure that when a young person finishes a placement they have a piece of paper to take away with them. We aim for at least three units of an NVQ in six months but if they could do a total NVQ it would be great. It would be difficult to do it in 6 months but it would be possible for some people. We pay £750 for that. So we insist that all young people get the equivalent of one day per week training so that they are not just being used by an employer, but that they leave with a transferable skill if they are not kept on.

474.

We are looking at other courses, for example, CLAIT and the European Computer Driving Licence. During the Gateway period we will fund things like that. We fund forklift truck driving licences, but at the minute we do not fund full driving licences. It might be difficult to defend paying for people's driving licences.

475.

Mr J Kelly: The long-term unemployed are a problem because people are, by and large, institutionalised and they lose their discipline. I am glad that is going to be addressed. On the leader and the provider situation, what can be done with regard to that kind of separation? There appears to be greater availability in the east than in the west for New Deal training, is that correct?

476.

Mr Caher: I am not sure, because everyone who is eligible for New Deal must go on it and we have to provide placements for them.

477.

Mr J Kelly: But there seems to be a better chance of getting on the programme if you live in the east rather than the west.

478.

Mr Caher: We have to provide a place for everyone who is eligible, no matter where they live. It could be that we pay more for travel in rural areas and it may be more difficult to find an employer in a rural area.

479.

Mrs Nelis: The consultants clearly show evidence of an east/west split, and in their submission the North West Institute said that they actually have a drop (1170 to 161) in participants in their New Deal 25-Plus, so there is a problem somewhere. There are greater training opportunities in the east than in the west. That must have an impact on the number who will get into full-time employment, even if they do surmount the various obstacles that New Deal presents. One of the obstacles relates to the option of education or training opportunity. At the moment it is confined to the long-term unemployed or people who have been in receipt of JSA for 18 months. There have been 3,000 job losses in the Foyle constituency and those people will have to wait for 18 months before they can access New Deal. They may want to access it straightaway, especially if they have lost a job and want to be retrained. The fact that you are not addressing those aged over 25 is also a fundamental flaw.

480.

Mr Gamble: We are not happy about the 18 month waiting time and we know that there is not a great deal else available for people during that period. So we need something that would act before New Deal to try to put into place some provision to take 25-plus people from the first day of unemployment instead of their just getting JSA and then having nothing for 18 months. They would be asked to come in and discuss things early on so that there could be early intervention to try and get people thinking about what they are going to do next.

481.

After a few months, when they have tried that, if they still have not found another job we could try to put other kinds of provision and training into place for them. We are really only starting work on this, but we are trying to fill that gap between day one and 18 months. To us it seems too long.

482.

If we do manage to get things funded and successfully in place, the end result could be that not a lot of people would have to wait 18 months before going into New Deal. We would have been able to do something for many of them before that. We are looking at that long gap. In doing so, we are thinking in particular about the people who have been made redundant and who have a skill which is, perhaps, no longer likely to be used, for example, something to do with the textile or stitching industries. You might have priority groups who would get in very early to the training elements of a range of provisions between day one and 18 months. We are on the ground floor with that, but we are working on it.

483.

Mr Caher: I agree, and the Agency would like people who want to enter voluntarily to be able to do so. At the moment it is not within our gift. People on New Deal for 25-Plus remain on jobseeker's allowance, and the Department of Social Development will not allow people who have not been unemployed for 18 months to go into full-time education and training and continue to claim this allowance. We have, however, written to the Minister suggesting that certain people, for example, women returners, should be allowed to enter early.

484.

Mr Dallat: Having listened to evidence all afternoon from witnesses who spoke with a great deal of compassion and feeling for people as individuals, I do not think it can go without comment that these people have come through an education system that, in some way, has totally failed them. In order to make sure that we do not continue to be a fire brigade for the inefficiencies of the education system, surely this Committee and the Assembly in general must develop some sort of joined-up approach to education and training which encompasses the Department of Education as well as the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment, especially when you hear stories of people not having even basic skills in telephone techniques, never mind literacy and numeracy. On a positive side, I know from past experience that your Department is heavily involved in advising people in the secondary sector on careers. These young people are sent out of school with a national assessment, and then they find that there is a total dearth of communication about what they can do.

485.

If this Committee is to produce something constructive that will prevent people like yourself coming in ten years' time to give the same type of evidence, what can you suggest? You cannot ignore the secondary sector which is producing these people.

486.

Mr Gamble: People can arrive on the job market scene with a lot of problems already, and as you say, it is then a kind of rescue operation. I do not feel particularly qualified to offer suggestions as to how the school system could do it better. That is just the deficiency of my own background and knowledge and career to date.

487.

Some of the problems would not exist if people left school with better qualifications and a more realistic view of the world of work. Much work has been done on this area, but without apparent success. There has been much work on business education and partnership, and on introduction to the world of work by the careers service. Schools do a great deal to prepare pupils for the outside world, but it is still not enough.

488.

Perhaps I am being too pessimistic: the number of people leaving school with no qualifications has dropped sharply. It is a pity that significant numbers still leave school with basic literacy and numeracy problems. Clearly, this will not make them attractive to employers.

489.

Ms McWilliams: You have been asked to deliver a system which has been designed elsewhere. We will be looking at how to link up secondary and further education to make skills and training more relevant. You may have heard Anne McViker speaking on the radio about the Women's TEC. Some of them are New Deal people who have just completed courses in bench joinery, electronic engineering and the splendidly named European Computer Driving Licence. They are now IT experts and these are success stories.

490.

We still have to look at the problems, however. I was interested in the Minister's suggestion, and we can take that up elsewhere. The employers' subsidy is not cheap labour, although, unfortunately it can end up as such. It is lowering wages, because there are plenty of willing workers available for employers. It states that there is no mandatory training requirement attached to the subsidy, yet you have just told us that you insist on an NVQ. How do you square these two things?

491.

We need to address the differential funding arrangements for clients in the options. Is that a serious issue? We have heard that you have overall responsibility for the Quality Performance Management Framework. How much data have you produced on this? I would like to see what goes in and what comes out at the other end. We have heard you say that 'some' had dropped off the register - obviously, some are getting jobs. How many?

492.

There was criticism of the variation in data and how it is collected, and surely, the T&EA has overall responsibility for that. One of the performance indicators we have heard about is the huge caseload that personal advisers have to deal with.

493.

Mr Gamble: They have been reduced of late.

494.

Ms McWilliams: Nonetheless, over 100 per personal adviser. Neither you nor I could possibility do any tracking with such a caseload. That is a Quality Performance Management Framework indicator. These are very serious matters, which the T&EA might like to comment on.

495.

Mr Caher: We insist on the three units in NVQ for the 18-24 age group in New Deal. There is nothing as far as the 25-Plus New Deal is concerned. That is part of the design. We have said that we would like people who voluntarily want to do units in an NVQ and who are over 25 years old to be allowed to do so. We would pay the training grant for them. We have made that suggestion, and it is with Tessa Jowell. There are two New Deals, and each one is different.

496.

As far as the differentiation on funding is concerned - and I believe you are referring to the £15.38 top-up that some clients get and others do not - those on full-time education and training do not get a top-up, they simply get their benefit. That is a social security rule. If a person is studying and they are getting a benefit, then the top-up would affect the benefit entitlement, so they are not allowed to receive the top-up. We have suggested that they should get the top-up.

497.

Ms McWilliams: So, will we not get these suggestions?

498.

Mr Caher: The Minister has written to Tessa Jowell with a large number of suggestions and that is one of them. Caseloads are coming down. We are looking at that and trying to get an average caseload that we think a personal adviser should be able to deal with. We will set that figure and the advisers should be able to deal with that amount.

499.

Not every client takes up the proper allocation of time. Part of the caseload involves people who are with employers, or who are out on options. The adviser would simply keep in touch with those people regularly. They would not have to carry out the in-depth interviews with everyone at all times. The caseload does not simply comprise people who are coming on the scheme. Advisers also maintain contact with people while they are on options, and that would not take up as much time.

500.

Mr Rogers: On the issue of figures, one of the things we are doing is instituting a large evaluation programme for New Deal. That is in progress. A number of people today have said that New Deal is not a very old programme. It has only been in operation for two and a half years, so it is a bit early yet to be definitive. Some of the things already coming out of the evaluation are very similar to those you have been hearing about today. It seems to be working better for the 18 to 24 age group than the 25 plus group. As regards the numbers of people moving to employment, one of the evaluation's key objectives will be not just to identify how many people move into employment, but also if that employment is sustained, and what the wage levels are.

501.

Undoubtedly, some people will be moving into low paid, insecure jobs. However, we want to know how many are moving into better jobs. So far, one indicator we have is from the first survey we did on leavers. Of those who moved into jobs, only 20% moved into unskilled jobs, the rest moved into semi-skilled or skilled jobs. As New Deal starts dealing with more difficult people it will be harder to maintain those figures. However, at least the indicators will give us some idea of how successful the programme is. We hope to complete the two key evaluation exercises by May 2001. The report should be available before next summer if everything goes to plan.

502.

The Chairperson: I was going to ask a question about the statistics but I think you have answered it. I would like to ask Mr Gamble two things. First, the Department's Business Plan said that the number of placements in further education was to increase by 2,000. The Committee wondered if that is an addition of 2,000 places to further education or is it in fact New Deal participants being run through the further education system.

503.

Mr Gamble: My understanding is that the former is the case. However, I will confirm that for the Committee.

504.

The Chairperson: We also wondered if I could formally request that we as a Committee could see the suggestions which the Minister has made to the review committee in London? We would probably be very supportive of those suggestions.

505.

Mr Gamble: I think the Minister would not have any problem with that.

506.

The Chairperson: I am anxious that they are implemented.

507.

Mr Gamble: Could I just add a little piece of information to that? After a long consultation process, the Minister sent suggestions to Tessa Jowell about things which we are concerned about here.

top
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 19 October 2000

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly

Witnesses:
Mr N Smyth )
Ms D Stewart )
Mr P Masterson ) Confederation of British Industry
Ms C Whiteside )
Mr J Owens )

508.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much for coming, Ladies and Gentlemen, you are very welcome. This is the first formal evidence session we have had outside of Parliament Buildings. We appreciate the fact that Nortel has given us this room for the afternoon. This is a very appropriate setting for considering the whole link-up between further education, higher education, training and industry. I understand you would like to make a presentation and then answer questions from the Committee.

509.

Mr Masterson: The Confederation of British Industry (CBI) has a broad membership base, with representative companies from all sectors of industry, commerce and service sectors. We are a long-established organisation in Northern Ireland. Our role is to create an environment within the United Kingdom for business to prosper in the enterprise environment. Indeed, we in Northern Ireland like to ensure that we do just that with the members that we have, drawing on the substantial resources available to us from the CBI nationally.

510.

In a local dimension, the CBI certainly places a very high priority on the question of education and training. That has been one of the great strategic advantages as to why businesses are here and do well. It is the current message coming out of Northern Ireland and is used to good avail. We see that reflected in comments from our members.

511.

We are pleased to have the opportunity to talk to you, within the remit of your Committee. We are also thankful that we have had the opportunity to make a submission to your inquiry. We are gathering data and information from our membership base, and we hope to have that finalised in November. Our intent today is to give you some insight into some of the key issues that are important and are driving us. I will hand you over to Nigel Smyth, our director in Northern Ireland, who is going to do that.

512.

Mr Smyth: I have circulated the substance of the presentation and it will take about 10 to 12 minutes to go through it. The areas I want to cover are the changing world that companies are all operating in; our vision for education and training; some of the key elements of a successful education and training strategy; what we believe to be some of the key areas of weakness in Northern Ireland - areas to which the Committee should be giving particular attention - and, finally, university research.

513.

If we look at the changing world, we are aware of the increasing globalisation of markets and intensive technological change, largely driven by IT improvements. We are seeing much more demanding and competitive markets, with much more transparency. Companies are under intensive pressures to improve productivity and meet the needs of increasingly demanding customers. This will require a change in skill requirements, to address productivity growth, technology needs and the need to be more innovative in all companies. Average skills will need to increase, but it is fair to say - and we will be highlighting this in our evidence - not all jobs are going to be high-skilled. There is going to be very substantive growth in the personal and protective services category, and customer interaction skills probably need to be improved. Companies need to attract and retain the best people. They are going to have to be world-class, and people are going to be the key in providing competitive advantage.

514.

We will be emphasising in our submission and presentation the importance of key skills - there are six key skills that I will refer to. We see these as being increasingly important over the next 10 years. From our perspective we want to see the system moving from one which has been traditionally supply-driven to one driven by informed individuals. We will be stressing the importance of peace and political stability, which is vital to attract the best people and, indeed, the families of the best people, because Northern Ireland's image is not as we would like it to be.

515.

Our draft vision, and I emphasise draft, as we are going through our own consultative procedures at present, is about a system that creates high expectations. It provides every individual with the ability to achieve the relevant knowledge, skills and values appropriate to their needs, which enables them to make informed choices for lifelong development and employment. From that, we have emphasised two core elements to delivering that vision. The first is all about the ability to add value in the work of individuals. We have defined employability and set out the range of qualities and competencies required. It is important to stress that traditionally there is a strong focus on qualifications, but we are stressing that it is more about values and attitudes.

516.

Basic foundation skills are obviously crucial. There are six key skills that should form, or be integrated into, all education and training, at whatever level. There are other generic skills, which are becoming increasingly key for customer service skills and language training. There is then more relevant knowledge and understanding to particular jobs and job-specific skills.

517.

Another key area of the strategy is to ensure that the education and training system is relevant to the needs of the economy. We will emphasise the importance of having some consensus on strategic direction for the economy and the impact that would have on education and training. We see 'Strategy 2010' as important in that respect. A target should be set for education and training relevant to that strategy.

518.

The second theory involves business. I welcome and support the reinvigorated Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership (NIBEP). We are keen to support partnerships between business and education at all levels, from primary all the way through to further and higher education. These are improving, but there is room for further improvement. Importantly, we must have a coherent qualifications framework, one that employers and employees can understand, where individuals can move between the various routes, and it is mapped out and marketed very well to both employers and employees.

519.

The next issue is careers education and guidance. We put a strong focus on that, particularly if we want to see informed individuals. They should be aware of the needs of the economy and the opportunities open to them; they should know what companies expect of them, and they should be responsive to economic needs, particularly when things are changing so rapidly. We need mechanisms to highlight and identify emerging skill shortages or changes in the economy to ensure that courses are relevant and that we are putting the resources in the right areas. We welcome the establishment of the Northern Ireland Skills Task Force to address that. By having effective training and development in employment, training levels in companies have been increasing over the years. We will show evidence of that, but there is further to go - we lag behind the rest of the UK in this respect.

520.

We are strong supporters of the Investors in People standard. We got off to a slow start but are improving at a fairly rapid rate, although there are still some problems. We would put that in the context of employee development in terms of education and training. This needs to be viewed in the broader sense - people development, the leadership and culture of organisations, the involvement of individuals in companies, and the whole area of work organisation.

521.

Turning to particular weaknesses in the Northern Ireland system, it is well known that adult literacy and numeracy levels are a problem. Individuals are good at hiding this. Many companies sift this out at an early stage, so there is probably a lower percentage in terms of those who are employed, and evidence supports this. Many operatives still have this problem, and companies tend to identify these problems only when they are starting to move into multi-skilling and moving these people up in their organisations.

522.

Key skills are important. Feedback shows that IT skills are improving, but there are still serious weaknesses in areas such as problem solving and individuals taking responsibility for their own learning and communication skills. Therefore we must emphasise the importance of the six key skills. There is a general feeling that in Northern Ireland and parts of GB the depth of learning is too narrow - we narrow down too early. The system in the Republic of Ireland and Scotland is wider, and the CBI would welcome that.

523.

The next issue is how attitudes and individual responsibility can be changed. We are concerned that too few people in the UK take responsibility for their learning. As individuals we spend less time on learning, and there are significant barriers to learning. We can outline the problems and the challenges for public policy of increasing the demand for learning, particularly as we try to develop a culture of lifetime learning.

524.

Strengthening vocational and technical education and training - the role of further education - is a sector that has been lacking direction. It has been a key driver in the Republic of Ireland and a key strength in their economy. We see some inconsistency in output, and links with industry are very mixed. There are some good practices and some not so good. We would like to see the further education sector given a stronger economic focus.

525.

We have a research paper regarding links between higher education and business. Intellectually these are generally good, but we would like to see an improvement in key skills. It comes back to that again. Problems have been identified, and there will be an increasing need for key skills. Graduates should be coming out with a better awareness of the world of work. We are keen to see more work placements, and companies are keen to provide that opportunity.

526.

In terms of skills shortages, we will be emphasising a tighter and more competitive market than that which exists at the moment. It will be driven largely by general economic growth and specifically by the growth in the information and communications technology (ICT) sector, and the impact of the strong growth of the Republic of Ireland's economy. It is important that we monitor this whole area of opportunities and vacancies carefully.

527.

It is all relevant to the role of careers guidance, particularly in areas such as IT, electronics and across the construction sector. We have received feedback from companies in other sectors stating that they cannot get workers. Is that because there is a skills shortage, that vacancies are difficult to fill, or can businesses not afford to pay the going rate because there is a more competitive market?

528.

We will also touch on cross-border issues. We think the strategy for Northern Ireland should take account of what is happening in the Republic. There is also the issue of the recognition of qualifications.

529.

We certainly have a desire to see universities as the jewels of the Northern Ireland economy, particularly if we are to develop into a knowledge-based society. A review of the research assessment exercise indicated certain weaknesses from an economic development perspective, but it is improving. We would like to see better definitions of quality and excellence. We would also like to see higher levels of funding going into research but would emphasise that they have to be relevant to the needs of industry in Northern Ireland.

530.

Recent research has highlighted that 13 Centres of Excellence are linked with universities in Northern Ireland. There is a low level of awareness of these Centres by companies, and it needs to be highlighted that some of these are specialised. Businesses that do use these Centres tend to rate them very highly, so there is obviously some value there. It is a similar situation with our various support programmes to try to facilitate links between businesses and universities. Once again there are low levels of awareness, but companies that are actually tapping into them also rate them highly.

531.

Our survey focused on companies with up to 100 employees. These companies indicated that universities need to become more customer orientated and responsive to their needs. We would be keen to see comprehensive marketing strategies by the two universities, outlining how they are going to market their resources. We also need to highlight to companies the benefits of getting involved in these linkages. It is not always the universities' fault, and there is obviously an issue here for companies. They must recognise the need and be prepared to get involved with the universities.

532.

Finally, I included some of the feedback from our research to give the paper a bit of flavour. There are some serious concerns. Typical comments include "the work ethic seems to be lacking in a majority of applicants; working on the shop floor is not exciting enough for young people; discipline and timekeeping has fallen; new employees come with basic skills but have no idea about timekeeping, attendance or how to communicate without shouting; and graduates now expect to be offered a job on the strength of their degree." We will be putting that in the context of our employability - a degree is OK, but you need to have the values and key skills.

533.

Thank you, Chairman, I hope that gives you a flavour of where we are coming from, and we will be delighted to respond to questions.

534.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr Smyth. What you have said will provoke quite a bit of thought and reflection on our part. We will now have questions from the Committee.

535.

Mr J Kelly: Regarding your comments about a higher level of funding, we have spent a lot of time discussing student funding and third-level education. There is a perception that because students get so much out of education, they should be obliged to give more back to society. I note that you have quoted David Blunkett: "To achieve stable and sustainable growth, we will need a well-educated, well-equipped and adaptable labour force".

536.

You have said that you would like to see more funding, but it would have to be relevant to industry's needs. Should there not be a stronger relationship between industry and third-level education in terms of funding as industry has, in many ways, a social and moral obligation to put into third-level education as much as it is getting out of it?

537.

Mr Masterson: I will open that up to members on this side of the table to respond to in a moment, but I would like to comment from my own perspective. There is strong evidence of substantial involvement by industry at the moment. The question is, of course, is it enough, and could it be more? The volume of activity involves more than just supporting all of those programmes which are reliant on the year-out placement in industry. The bulk of degrees from the University of Ulster at Jordanstown (UUJ) are supported by organisations training undergraduates, but there are organisations which have seen the need to move towards direct funding of research activity in universities. There is evidence from recent years of companies in the modern technology sector directly funding universities, although I stand to be corrected should evidence from the other sectors prove contrary. The question is, where does industry's obligation start, and where does it stop? I will throw it open to my colleagues to give some examples.

538.

Mr J Kelly: I take the point that industry is inputting into education, but it is only those that do well in the "beauty parade" that get funding, the "Cinderellas" do not. Should there be a more cohesive approach from industry in terms of third-level education?

539.

Mr Smyth: I am not sure if I can answer that question. If I could just make clear my reference was to university research and development funding, but we would like to see industry contributing alongside Government and universities.

540.

Regarding the other comment about graduates, I am sure you do not want to go back to your debate on tuition fees. There is a market for graduates in companies, and we believe they will get paid decent wages. At the moment graduates are getting significant pay increases, certainly in sectors like accountancy and information technology.

541.

One of the dangers of the current system is that everybody has focused on this academic route; we would like to see a stronger further education sector. We would like people to get a degree, but not necessarily when they are aged 21. We would like to see more people going into companies, being educated over a period of time and eventually getting a level-four degree. That is where we need to get cohesion between the two and ensure that everybody is getting a fair crack of the whip.

542.

Mr Owens: I cannot add very much to that, but there is a balance to be drawn. We mentioned employability, and education covers much more than business. Your question was about whether business should fund, or assist in funding, education. Business can contribute in many ways to student education, and I take the view that business takes people from the education system and educates them further - bringing individuals through either by higher education or further education. Students are coming out with qualifications, but there is a much wider education process to be taken on. Business is investing heavily in that area.

543.

The Chairperson: An article in 'The Irish News' this week reported how Nortel has 40 new scholarship and sponsorship opportunities for undergraduates from Queen's University and the University of Ulster. The question is whether other companies should be doing that.

544.

Mr Masterson: It is something of a chicken-and- egg situation. Which comes first? Does a company actively help the university or further education college, or is it as a result of the procedure? If business linkages are built with colleges in local communities, employers will be typically responsive to the college needs within the constraints. Our role is not to fund education, but it can be to contribute. The building of those linkages will, in my view, result in that type of funding, as in the case of Nortel. The building of those linkages resulted in universities having a need which they shared with Nortel.

545.

Mr Owens: PricewaterhouseCoopers takes in 30 graduates each year and puts them through a three-year training contract. Therefore, there is an additional three- year education process. Those individuals come out with a degree and then have to do three years after that, before they go into the wider accountancy field.

546.

Mr Carrick: If the CBI is taking a regional strategic view, how is that, in turn, permeated in a meaningful manner at local level. I am thinking particularly of the 26 district councils who are all competing under their economic development programmes and how an overlap might occur. That is not the best use of energy - 26 councils all trying to do the same thing. I would be interested in Nigel Smyth's comments on that.

547.

He also said that there were significant barriers to learning and made reference to the lack of direction and inconsistencies between vocational and technical education in training and the role of further education. Could he also expand on those issues?

548.

Mr Smyth: In reply to Mr Carrick's first point, we do have to get it right at regional level initially, but I do not think that we are at that stage yet. It is hoped that with the Skills Task Force and other initiatives we will have a better idea of where we are going. Below that, and this was one of the recommendations of 'Strategy 2010', there should be local clusters of schools and further education colleges, et cetera. In our submission, and in a submission earlier in the year, we did emphasise that we must get the regional focus right first of all and then start focussing at the local level.

549.

It needs to be looked at, possibly under the umbrella of the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership. There are various initiatives taking place in the north-west and in other areas, and the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership is probably the key body that can facilitate that at local level. However, we should focus on getting the regional focus right first.

550.

As far as barriers to learning are concerned, we will be putting some of the material in as written evidence in early November. We are not aware of the Northern Ireland figures, but the National Adult Learning Survey indicates that 50% of adults chose the answer "Nothing would encourage me to learn." We must be realistic, as there are key barriers to learning, such as interest in learning and time for learning. There are 24% of non-learners and 32% of learners who see time as a barrier. There is a whole range of parameters, and we will give you more details on that. It is easy to say that many people who are economically inactive should be in employment. Many of those may not want -or may not be prepared- to learn, to get the employability skills that are required.

551.

We have not done as much structured research on the further education sector as we recently have on the higher education sector. Over the last 12 months, a number of consultations on the further education sector highlighted some very good practice in particular sectors - whether printing, electrical or engineering - where companies and the Further education sector, especially colleges, are working closely together. The outputs from this co-operation have been highly rated by local companies.

552.

In other areas, some companies are very concerned with the outputs. Some people do not have the technical skills - which is surprising, particularly if you look at the NVQ standards. Companies also face issues such as attitudes to work. These key skills keep coming up again as weaknesses, in the people they are turning away. We asked about the people they did not recruit, and they said "They are very poor".

553.

To be honest, we have not done detailed research on this, compared to what we have been doing in the higher education sector. There is a fairly mixed picture out there. If we could bring everybody up to the best standards, we could really make a difference.

554.

Mr Masterson: Ms Whiteside, coming from an organisation in the Craigavon region, may want to comment on the first element and on the linkages to councils outside the Greater Belfast area.

555.

Ms Stewart: Her company is doing quite a bit in terms of associating schools with local economic development through the Craigavon Development Organisation.

556.

Ms Whiteside: Another important link is the Southern Education Business Partnership. That partnership and the understanding from it, forges a strong link from which both sides benefit.

557.

Mr Carrick: I agree with that principle, but are we really making a mark with it? Coming from the Craigavon area, I think that only a select few are involved, and we are not really hitting the wider public.

558.

Ms Whiteside: Do you mean people in education?

559.

Mr Carrick: Yes.

560.

Mr Smyth: We do not have the mechanisms right. We keep getting invited to one-day conferences, which are very nice, but you are not going to get senior business people coming to spend a whole day to talk about general education issues. We need to be a little bit cleverer and get the regional level right. When it comes down to the local level, we also need to be careful and cleverer by using IT or having meetings in the evening to see how we might link people in. We need to make sure that we share a common agenda.

561.

Our organisation finds that getting input from senior business people is becoming increasingly difficult, because they are under greater pressures. Management is getting thinner and to achieve that strategic input, we are having to be more innovative. There is a message in that for everyone which needs to be given more thought.

562.

Mr Carrick: We need to make a greater impact, and I agree that huge demands are placed upon business and business managers at community level. To expect them to come along in the evening and repeatedly give up two or three hours is quite demanding. Diaries are full, and we are not making the impact we ought to. Some people are fully committed to the principle, while others think it is a good idea but have no time to support it.

563.

Mr Masterson: Are you referring to economic bodies?

564.

Mr Carrick: Yes.

565.

Mr Owens: It was not long ago that we recruited only graduates into the professional services industry. A few years ago we changed this policy and started to bring in non-graduates, although most have a third- level education. We realised that to recruit those people we had to talk to them while they were in secondary school. We visit as many secondary schools in our areas as we can, to let them know about our business and the type of work that goes on, in an attempt to bridge the gap between career advice and the workings of business.

566.

Mr R Hutchinson: You are saying that you do not need a degree to be successful in business. There are capable children who, for their own reasons, are not able to attain a higher level of education. However, do you agree that many of these children would benefit the business sector in Northern Ireland?

567.

Mr Owens: Absolutely. Mr Smyth mentioned the difference between skills shortage and hard-to-fill vacancies. Hard-to-fill vacancies are really an inflationary process. People with experience and capability are being poached. Salary expectations become unrealistic for a lot of companies, and when you employ people with high expectations, they will let you invest in their training and then move on. All organisations want to retain good employees who have good basic skills but do not want to be the boss. Therefore, you have to target a different audience.

568.

Mr Hutchinson: Are you suggesting that they show greater loyalty?

569.

Mr Owens: I am not suggesting that, but Mr Smyth mentioned that graduates expect to be taken by the hand because they have a degree, when, in fact, they are only beginning to learn. Many people without degrees are totally employable. We then invest in their training and education while they are employed with us, as do many other companies.

570.

Mr R Hutchinson: That is very encouraging.

571.

Mr Masterson: It is more about stability, because they are more likely to stay. That is a good thing, and it is something that organisations in Northern Ireland with parts of their broader companies elsewhere will say - there is greater stability in Northern Ireland. Of course, this can also be a weakness, because you need a degree of turnover.

572.

Mr R Hutchinson: Do you agree that a view exists that unless you have a higher level of education you are not really wanted? You must also break down this barrier and not give the impression that you want someone who has been to a grammar school or university. There are capable people who, through no fault of their own, seem to get a slap in the face every time they apply for a job because they have not had a higher education. They are the people in Northern Ireland who actually do the work, unlike some who are sitting with degrees the length of their arm.

573.

Mr Smyth: We certainly agree. Every two or three months we do a business confidence survey, and some of those surveyed identified skill shortages and the fact that there were difficult-to-fill vacancies. Most of these are for operatives, electricians, bricklayers and construction workers. I would not like it to be thought that we believe that everybody has to come out with a degree. In the future, degrees will not be necessary for many of the jobs on offer - particularly in the service sector.

574.

Mr R Hutchinson: I am very pleased to hear that.

575.

Mrs Carson: I am a member of this Committee, but I am afraid I had a very low level of primary education. I was amused by what you said, Mr Smyth, about people not being good timekeepers or attenders and not knowing how to communicate without shouting.

576.

I think you already know that there is a problem at the top end of the education system, but I think the problem starts at the basic level. Children are coming into school having had no training in how to sit down or lift a pencil and apply themselves to thinking or reading. Nowadays they are encouraged to be themselves. They spend some time at one type of play and some time at another. In the current system, children as young as four or five are not applying themselves to responding to any form of discipline. However, that is an issue for another day. Your problem is to find operatives and people who are employable in different industries. Industry should congratulate itself for having survived 30 years of trouble.

577.

We may have had problems, but we are moving away from that, and we have something to build on despite the background of the troubles. I do not think we should put ourselves down too far in that respect. As Mr Hutchinson suggested, the education system here is such that people who have degrees are lauded as being special, but others with manual skills are treated like second-class citizens. That is the barrier you have got to get over.

578.

One Fermanagh person said to me - and I do not mean this in any derogatory way - that we will always need "sheughdiggers". There will always be a need for someone who knows where to dig then digs it and digs it properly.

579.

I think that we have to go back to basic skills and training. As Mr Owens said, there needs to be linkages with schools. Pupils should be brought to see you and your workplaces. They should be given the chance to see what industry looks like. You should not confine yourself to secondary schools, you should go to grammar and primary schools as well. There is a feeling that nothing is produced in Northern Ireland, that we have Government agencies here, but we get everything else from other places. Industry is producing something, and you should be creating the culture that it is acceptable to work in industry and that people who do so should be proud of that fact.

580.

Mr Masterson: I agree with a great deal of what has been said. From the comments we have made today, and what you will be getting from us in November, you will see that we value the further education sector as being critically important.

581.

From our perspective, it is not all about the higher education sector. We are concerned that there may be people who have been trying to get into the higher education sector and do degrees as opposed to going along other routes - in the past, the technical sector might well have provided for this. We can identify with that theme.

582.

Ms Whiteside: I would like to comment on work experience and visiting schools. There is an onus on people in education and in business to ensure that the interface between business and education is a meaningful one. Pupils should have work experience that is worthwhile. Equally, the student's expectations should be realistic in that they should realise that they cannot go into a solicitor's office and take charge of a case for a week or go into a business and negotiate a deal.

583.

Mr Beggs: I have a degree, and I have worked in industry, but I have also put on a set of overalls and driven fork-lift trucks, and it is apparent to me that society needs to place greater value on manufacturing industry and on business in general and interact with it. You commented on the weakness in Northern Ireland's system and the need to strengthen the vocational and technical educational sector. We have already been advised that Northern Ireland is weak in this area compared to the rest of the United Kingdom, and even weaker compared to Europe. You said earlier that further education lacks direction and that there is a need for better careers guidance. Do you agree that we seem to have a disproportionate focus on the academic route in Northern Ireland and that not everyone is going to be a scientist or have a degree? What would encourage students to take up the career opportunities which undoubtedly exist? For example, there is a shortage of bricklayers, plumbers and electricians. These craft and technical skills can lead to good career opportunities. I have also heard that employers generally do not value HNDs to the appropriate extent. They are treated almost as an intermediate route to getting on to a degree course. The CBI needs to address that issue with its members. Does our careers guidance service for schools need to be changed to give constructive advice on the current needs of industry and employers? There was a similar critical comment last week on careers guidance in the skills sector.

584.

Mr Smyth: Careers guidance has to be seen as independent, relevant and of good quality, and it has to be accessible. That is central to letting individuals make informed choices. We should have a more cohesive service, linking the various parts of the careers service together. We need to strengthen links with employers. From current research it seems that many large employers have had no contact whatsoever from careers people, and that concerns me. We should, perhaps, look at how we could use the Internet to give people an idea of what jobs entail and how they operate. Using the Internet would be a very effective, efficient means of illustrating opportunities to young people and showing them what skills they need or what sort of environment they will be working in. The whole image of manufacturing is very negative.

585.

It is a very different world now, as there are more progressive and technology-related companies. It is critical for those who are giving advice to be aware of the changing needs and the role of industry. It must be customer-focused, and it must have quality standards. Careers advisers also need to be accredited.

586.

In 1994 a major review was carried out on careers guidance, and we thought that that was the answer to all our questions. Unfortunately, as is often the case in Northern Ireland, it was not implemented, however, I understand that it is presently being revisited. The review is looking in detail at careers education in the school system, but we believe that this is just as important in respect of adults, particularly when lifetime learning is being considered.

587.

Mr Beggs: Can someone comment on the fact that businesses do not place enough value on HNDs?

588.

Mr Masterson: In the past, this has been affected by supply and demand. Not long ago, supply was in abundance and values dictated who was given the first call. In addition, the education system was restructured, and the old polytechnics were replaced by universities. Statements were made, even in those colleges, about the importance of getting a degree, rather than a HND.

589.

However, the market has now changed, and we have moved back again from abundant supply in certain areas to a short supply. HNDs are being sought in fields for which courses are in short supply. The role of the further education sector and related qualifications has been played down, and emphasis has been placed on the higher education sector and the replacement of polytechnics by universities. Employers have perhaps been responsible because they operated in a demand/ supply situation, but the education authorities have also played their part.

590.

Mr Owens: I agree. The perception that you must have a degree has been introduced by those who have degrees ¾ our generation probably started that trend. A company would be very silly to advertise for staff with degree-level qualifications only. There is now a movement towards third-level education ¾ an HND in business studies and administration could be much more focused and relevant than a degree in geography or another unrelated subject. There is a realisation that it is important to gain third-level education, but not just a degree.

591.

Current trends are leading to a decline in the manufacturing sector, however this is outside the control of business; it is caused by globalisation and the expansion of the Web. Third World countries are now marketing their excellent capabilities in precision machining and in the aerospace industry - that would have been unheard of in the past. Business in Northern Ireland is having to reinvent itself ¾ machine shops have been replaced by total-solution companies. People are using their high level of skills and sub contracting manufacturing jobs to other countries at a lower cost, and that trend is going to continue.

592.

Mr J Kelly: I hope we are not downgrading the concept of degree courses, as that would be a mistake. For example, the first degree course in nursing is a great advance for the industry. We should not look at education in a narrow way; the structure of degrees has been ineffective, but that is no reason to abolish them.

593.

Mr Beggs: If more emphasis were placed on HND courses, people with these qualifications could fulfil the required role, and having achieved this, they could continue their lifelong learning at their own leisure and progress to their chosen level.

594.

Mr Byrne: I welcome the CBI's presentation, which has highlighted a number of key issues of concern, amongst which is the lack of generic key skills. We need to remedy this problem, because academic qualifications alone are not meeting employers' needs. The training system must include these skills. What are your views about general skills training? Should we be aiming to provide a mixed style of training which is neither basic nor academic but a combination of practical electronics and theory? Will stronger collaboration be necessary between the industries seeking the workers and the training providers? The further education sector could have a better role there.

595.

With regard to research and development, it is fair to say that in Northern Ireland we have not had a culture of good collaboration between universities and large employers. Often the large employers with scale three or scale four plants did not have their own Northern Ireland research and development departments and did not interface with universities. How can that be improved?

596.

There seems to be a 64% dependency on the public purse. What can we do to lessen that public sector dependency? What is the CBI doing to change the general culture of management? If you look at the United Kingdom economy generally, there has, in the past, been a reluctance on the part of management to change its attitude and culture. It has been slow to adapt, and this has often led to the "them and us" attitude, which meant that we have not always had the aggregate net benefit that we should have been getting.

597.

Finally, I agree with Mr Owens's comments about PricewaterhouseCoopers's employing people at 16-plus and then putting them through further education colleges to do the Accounting Technicians course. Some colleges have been very successful in placing people who are on two-year Accounting Technician courses in an accounts office one day a week, and some of these people have gone on to become fully-fledged accountants.

598.

Mr Masterson: You made several points. The first was to do with the creation of a better skills-based workforce and what we can do about that. My colleagues may want to pick up aspects of that.

599.

The other points were on university links and the dependency on the public purse and what can be done there. I will start with your first point - the creation of better skills.

600.

Ms Whiteside: I will pick up on the technical skills side. There are two elements to this - technical skills and the softer employability skills. Reference was made some time ago to the fact that industry in Northern Ireland was declining, and one of the keys to holding industry here must be the technical side. There is room for us to work closely with further education to enhance the attractiveness of technical courses and technical skills, either at degree level or HND, whichever is relevant.

601.

Mr Byrne: It could also be at HNC level.

602.

Ms Whiteside: Yes, it could. We need further education colleges to work alongside employers at HNC/HND level. People who are looking for employment in their local area and who do not have the urge to go to the mainland should be trained locally to enhance the technical side of the business.

603.

Mr Byrne: Where must the impetus come from? Should it come from the further education sector or from industry? Who is going to take the leap into the dark to build this collaboration?

604.

Mr Masterson: Do you mean who is going to help determine the skills required?

605.

Mr Byrne: Who is going to devise a mechanism that will provide the skilled people that we will need in the future?

606.

Mr Smyth: A great deal of this will come out of local partnerships. It has been well recognised over the last year or two that we have been inputting to the development of the new curriculum, and we will see key skills coming through there. Job skills have key components, and there is a particular qualification of key skills. That has not yet happened in modern apprenticeships. Many of the NVQs have links with employers as part of that.

607.

I want to refer to the issue of discipline that we discussed earlier. I received a telephone call this morning about a small company in the Antrim area that was prepared to take on a young guy from a difficult background who was doing an NVQ Level 2 in IT. He spent five weeks on an induction course and then began his first week of work in the company. This small company spent a great deal of time preparing him, and it had a project orientated for him, but after a week he disappeared on sick leave. He went back to the training centre two days later, because he found that the work in the company was too hard. When he is at the training centre he stops in the afternoon and goes home, yet he still gets his training money. That is not creating the discipline that is required in the work place.

608.

Mr Byrne: I accept your point. You want the training organisations to be more disciplined and regimented towards young people, and you want young people's attitude towards work to improve.

609.

Mr Smyth: Yes. Everybody should be aware of the importance of key skills. Key skills are now built into a number of courses and training programmes, and on the back of that, many people will spend time on work placement, among other things. This is not yet happening in modern apprenticeships, but it is hoped that it will happen in the next six months.

610.

Key skills are very important to employees. All education, training and any courses undertaken should be able to incorporate them into the training, whether it is in a university or in more specific job-related training.

611.

Mr Byrne: I agree with that. It is very important that your organisation feeds this concern right into the Department, because the policy decision makers - who are usually academics - see things only in a less than total way. It is important, therefore, that employers get their views fed in at the highest level.

612.

Mr Masterson: We take that on board, and it is reflected in the business/education partnerships. To add to what Nigel said, Nortel holds in great store the strong linkages that now exist between the Training and Employment Agency, the further education colleges and the training centres. We hope to see the training centres becoming more responsive in predicting what skills are needed.

613.

The training centres in the area in which I grew up produced a lot of welders. I often wondered why so many kids came out with welding skills when there was no great demand. I hope that we have learnt from that, but it should also be remembered that training and anticipation is a good thing. It is hoped that there will be better linkages in respect of the needs of modern industry through the T & EA's linkages with the colleges and training centres.

614.

There were other elements to the question regarding the university links not being good. I disagree with that. There are a number of organisations, not just Nortel, who have membership. One of the great differentiators about doing business in Northern Ireland is the responsiveness of the local universities to the demands of local industries, should local industry make the demand.

615.

But how do we make that more proactive? Many industries in Northern Ireland are utilising that, and that is one of the great values of being in business here - the responsiveness of those colleges who make the call, particularly the universities. There has been some evidence of successful companies that have grown out of Queen's University in the past, which were fostered by early linkages with industry.

616.

Mr Owens: A couple of trends are emerging from the two main universities - the introduction of the incubation and spin-out companies. They have taken that a stage further in that there are now strategic alliances with other professional firms - software development firms, among others. That is working very successfully in extending the education process and bringing business skills and some of the employability skills in to those areas. There are models there that are worth looking at and are worth considering for application in other aspects of the education process.

617.

Mr Masterson: The third element to your question concerns our role in and around the public fund. We touched on that earlier to some degree.

618.

Mr Smyth: We see that as being important in respect of the growth in the private sector. Investors in People emerged out of an initiative by the CBI. Investors in Training - the idea of having this standard - goes back to 1989, and we have been slightly slow to take that one up. More recently we have been promoting a benchmarking model called "Head Start" which will identify this, and it goes further than Investors in Training. It looks at the whole area of employee involvement, leadership, culture and various other things. On a personal level, I am concerned that there is too much focus on education and training, particularly by the T & EA. We need to look much more widely at leadership, management, work organisation and employee involvement. Those seem to be ignored. I am a little bit worried that we are putting a great deal of investment into specific education training, when, in fact, the whole organisation should be re-engineering itself. We will be raising that issue.

619.

On the matter of management, that was one area that was left out of 'Strategy 2010'. The whole process was speeded up, and the group looking at skills and education had no opportunity to look at management. The Management Council has now been set up, and it is to be hoped that it will address that. We have not yet got that issue right in Northern Ireland.

620.

Mr Dallat: The CBI does not have to sell its expertise. You have a critical role to play in this process, so I will seize this opportunity to mention four things I think are important.

621.

In a former role as a teacher, I spent very little time in industry. I wonder if it is wise to rely on teachers, who have very limited opportunities, who come into a place like Nortel to find out what the real world is about. I would certainly welcome a lobby from the CBI to encourage the Department to create a greater opportunity for teachers to get out there, get on the overalls and white coats and find out what is really going on. It is very difficult to teach something without practical experience.

622.

My second point is that I am aware that you have input into the curriculum, and I think that is brilliant. It is critical, because I know - again from past experience - that parts of the curriculum are so outdated it is unbelievable. I hope you also have input into the exams, because they are also old-fashioned.

623.

My third point is about careers guidance. We talk about it in isolation; it is almost like religious education - a particular time allocated to it. I know that in some progressive schools posters are put up in various classrooms, but they have not gone beyond that by integrating career guidance into every subject. People can do a subject for 10 years and not know what the job opportunities are.

624.

You gave evidence to another Committee about literacy and numeracy problems, which shocked but did not surprise me. I hope you do not let go of that one. It is a shame that in any society it is left to industry to teach people to read and write. I know there is no more humiliating experience for any individual than not to be able to read and write. Some of those people have hearts of gold as far as industry is concerned. Embarrass and shame Government into doing something about that, and find out who is responsible for allowing it in the first place.

625.

My last point is that we still reserve places for the directors at the front of the building. Let us get rid of that and treat everybody in industry equally. Let us share the jobs around and let everyone be equal. I am not suggesting that the Japanese got this right - they probably did not - and I think we can do it better rather than commit someone to doing one job for 30 years.

626.

This Committee also needs to be shaken up. There should be benefits to come out of this; it should not be just a one-off meeting. Let us do it in partnership; we can make a success of it.

627.

Mr Masterson: We will take a lot of those comments on board, for we agree with them. We would like to work in partnership with this Committee on an on going basis. We are enthused by the opportunity to move something forward.

628.

You have touched on a number of issues. As one who is close to a careers agenda, I will make a comment on that and then pass to my colleague. A review of the careers service is currently being carried out which the CBI is having an input to, and no doubt your Committee will be looking at the outcome of that. It is clearly a question of resources in schools. As the employers' body, we recognise resources as a major issue in and around education. There were problems particular to careers, because we have an overloaded curriculum. No doubt it is a question which you will be returning to when that Committee reports. We are very mindful of that as employers.

629.

Mr Smyth: I want to comment on the teachers. The CBI nationally was involved in something called "Understanding British Industry". In GB, 10% of teachers were placed in industry for a week each year, but in Northern Ireland it was less than 1%. When we saw Mr John McFall two and a half years ago, he was astounded, as he thought that this happened in Northern Ireland but found out that it did not. It did not take place because of the lack of funds for teachers. NIBEP sees that as one of its key strategic objectives, and it is to be hoped that it will be addressed, although not, perhaps, to the extent we would like.

630.

We do provide a great deal of documentation. We do push this through to the Department's officials. We are sure that the Assembly will now listen to us, more so than has happened in the past. A number of the things that you have touched on are very close to our hearts, and we have been trying to cover most of them.

631.

Mrs Carson: Mr Smyth stated that nothing was done about reports that were submitted in either 1997 or 1998. How many reports has the CBI produced and put forward to the Department of Education about which nothing has been done?

632.

Mr Smyth: Perhaps I misled you. In 1994 a careers review was undertaken jointly by the Departments, which produced a whole series of recommendations, but I understand that only a very small number have been implemented. If all of them had been implemented, we would be much further forward now.

633.

Mrs Carson: Where did that stick and stop?

634.

Several Witnesses: It was with civil servants.

635.

Mrs Carson: There was no local accountability to push it through?

636.

Mr Smyth: There is no debate on that. The whole reason for there being an Assembly is that these things can be raised and somebody will have to be accountable. Without doubt, somebody is likely to say "You did that report last week, and it has just got buried". There used to be no forum for debate and raising the issue to see if progress had been made.

637.

Mrs Carson: Were you referring to one report only?

638.

Mr Smyth: Yes. I referred to other CBI reports that were put forward on a whole range of issues. Obviously other people will be putting issues forward too, but we hope that some of these things have and will be taken up, although it will take a bit of time.

639.

Ms Stewart: I was involved in a review of business education links as long ago as 1992, and it took about three years before it was even partially implemented. As well as the lack of accountability, the structure of the Department did not help in that the T & EA was part of the Department of Economic Development, but with particular training responsibilities. Then there was the Department of Education, and there was an element of falling between two stools. That was linked in with the lack of accountability. Certain issues tended to be pushed around the different bodies involved.

640.

Mr Byrne: There is now a new Department which brings together further education, higher education, and training and employment, as well as parts of the Department of Economic Development and the Department of Education. Have you any comments to make about that? Ms Stewart has said that she welcomes it.

641.

Is this new Department, which will merge skills training with higher and further education, considered to be one that will result in a better synergy?

642.

Mr Smyth: Initially, I imagine it will. However, what is of concern here is that the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment will be considered as more of a super-agency, and there may be elements of management, development and Investors in People which we would prefer to go into that one agency. Indeed, we welcome bringing together the higher and further education sectors.

643.

The Chairperson: There are three areas which have not been mentioned as yet. First, how do we stop certain businesses free-riding on the training system, in that they will rely on people being trained elsewhere without paying for this themselves? That would be a rational, if not a socially responsible way for an individual business to act. There is evidence that some significant employers in Northern Ireland have not trained up their own staff, but have instead relied on bringing people in from outside, particularly from the rest of Great Britain, on a temporary basis. You may be able to guess the company to which I am referring.

644.

Secondly, in 'Strategy 2010' the research and development target aims at raising Northern Ireland's GDP rate from 0·6% to 1·5% within 10 years. That is a worthy objective, but is it a realistic one in your estimation?

645.

My third question relates to where we are sitting in Nortel. Media coverage has debated the supply of IT skills relative to demand and, in particular, the debate arising from the Northern Ireland Economic Research Centre report, including John Simpson's interpretation of it. From Nortel's point of view, is there a shortage of IT skills, and if so, at what level? With such differences between graduates and those attaining sub-degree technician level or beyond, this raises the possibility that we simply lack people who, despite being IT literate, are not necessarily IT specialists.

646.

Mr Masterson: The majority of that last question is aimed specifically at Nortel, and they will have an opportunity to speak to you on this matter.

647.

The Chairman: Do you feel that we should deal with that?

648.

Mr Masterson: Mr Owens from PricewaterhouseCoopers would be able to give an independent view on that first question.

649.

Mr Owens: We tend to be one of the larger providers of professional services. We bring in 30 to 40 students each year, train them and then suffer from those free riders who unload them. Understandably, it is hard to fill vacancies, because some of these people can receive twice the salary just to move. People can afford that, because they have not invested in this training. We invest in the training and pay a competitive rate, but to provide free rides on the back of those offering twice the rates is totally out of the question. I cannot give you an answer on how to stop it. Our method, unfortunately, is to reduce the intake. As a result, that impacts on the ability of the economy to bring through qualified people and sustain that.

650.

That is a practical and realistic solution, but it is not the best approach, so I would prefer not to take it. It might be a good idea if, through the education system, we rewarded those who are prepared to invest and to enter the education system earlier ¾ we could run dual courses with degree courses, but that would be difficult to do, because a degree course is already challenging. We may need to take a radical look at training methods, as well as the education and follow-on professional services.

651.

The same difficulties are being experienced in the precision-machining sector of the aerospace industry, although not because of skill shortages. These vacancies are hard-to-fill, because someone else is paying twice or three times as much as they can. They have every right to do that if they can find a market, but unfortunately it impacts on output.

652.

Mr Smyth: There is no single answer to this. We need to encourage a broader training culture in areas such as Investors in People. The training levy does not work, because the same problems prevail in the construction sector where a levy is paid. Incentives are needed, especially for smaller firms, but it is not only smaller firms that do this. It is a challenging question to which we do not have the answer at the moment.

653.

Mr Masterson: New organisations need to get up and running quickly. They need experienced people, and they try to get experienced recruits. With graduates, there is a significant lead-in time before they become quality people in industry. Perhaps organisations should be encouraged to routinely take on graduates early in their career.

654.

To come to the second part of your question on 'Strategy 2010' and the research and development target. Growth in the last year in Northern Ireland based on new introductions and IDB successes has taken place in industries that will contribute to its development and secure its position as a resource provider. This compares favourably with other parts of the world, where there is a shortage of resources. When organisations want someone to meet their resource gap, we must ensure that we can supply them.

655.

Mr Smyth: Is this achievable? We should certainly be moving in this direction. Over the next ten years, growth in existing sectors will take place in knowledge and research and development type industries. We are starting to see some spin-offs from the IT industry, and there is more potential here. We could then develop the university/industry links in the traditional indigenous sectors - and we should certainly be moving towards that. However, we have not looked at that as a separate issue.

656.

Mr Owens: Technology based training (TBT) will help here. It opens up a whole new array of training and accessibility.

657.

The Chairperson: This meeting has been extremely helpful. We are at an early stage in this inquiry, and we look forward to receiving your written submission. We may want to meet with you again to discuss these issues in more detail.

658.

Mr Masterson: We appreciate the opportunity, and we will give you a more comprehensive input in November.

659.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 23 November 2000

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams

Witnesses:
Ms M Cinnamond )
Ms M Connolly )
Mr K Donaghy ) Educational Guidance
Ms E Kelly ) Service for Adults
Ms E Speers )

660.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon and thank you for coming. As the Chairperson of the Committee of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment, I welcome Eileen Kelly, director of Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA); Eleanor Speers, its deputy director; Mags Connolly, co-ordinator of the Basic Skills Unit; Kevin Donaghy, co-ordinator of the Project Funding Unit; and Marian Cinnamond, co-ordinator of Advice and Guidance.

661.

We are delighted to have you here this afternoon as part of our inquiry into the workings of the training system, broadly defined, in Northern Ireland. The Assembly Members here are aware of EGSA's valuable work at the constituency level. I certainly am aware of some projects that I have been linked to in south Belfast. We also know that you are doing critical work at the coalface - maybe I should say the chalkface, if indeed chalk is still used - as regards dealing with basic skills, a subject that has come up repeatedly in this Committee and in the Education Committee. Do you wish to make statements first and then move to questions?

662.

Ms E Kelly: We will make a few opening statements. Thank you, you have relieved me of the task of introducing members of the delegation, and thank you for inviting us to meet you today.

663.

Our plan today is to give a broad overview of EGSA's position and to make some general observations. Then my colleagues will tell you about the different areas in which they are involved and make observations relevant to their area. Finally, as a team, we will deal with any questions you might have.

664.

Your inquiry is about looking at how the contribution of higher and further education and training to Northern Ireland industry can be improved. I want to start with a few broad opening statements, such as the principles on which today's evidence, and on which our work, are based.

665.

First of all, we are concerned about access to learning and participation in learning for any reason or motivation. Your own terms of reference suggest that you are interested only in vocational learning. However, EGSA is also concerned about those adults who do not participate in learning, who do not see the value of learning and whose contribution to the social and economic development of Northern Ireland could be significant if they were encouraged to consider learning and, indeed, welcomed into it.

666.

Secondly, learning has to be relevant and appropriate in order to be attractive for traditional non-participants.

667.

Diversity of provision is essential to maximise the potential that is out there. Learners and tutors in basic skills in informal community-based provision are in a lower level than those in vocational learning. They must be made to feel as valued as learners and tutors in higher level courses, whether these are vocational or academic.

668.

Adults will be encouraged to progress through learning if their achievements are recognised and accredited. It is important to recognise and value the role of the Northern Ireland Open College Network in encouraging learning and also the importance of the Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation and Transfer System in the framework.

669.

Finally, while we appreciate Northern Ireland's current economic success, we believe that people deserve more from learning and training for current or imminent employment opportunities. Indeed, people need to be able to cope with change and should have access to broad-based learning.

670.

Those are our principles. I now want to highlight some of the key points of the organisation. We did supply you with some background information on the organisation. It is quite lengthy, so I will not go through it all. I just want to highlight that EGSA has been around for over 30 years and was set up to benefit the community in Northern Ireland through the advancement of education of adults. Our organisation is particularly keen on reaching out to those adults who benefited least from formal education. Nowadays they are known as the non-participants. They might not have got through the 11-plus or they might have left school early, but they did not really achieve through formal education.

671.

EGSA's role has been to ensure that people know how to make the best use of the learning opportunities available to them. The organisation collects information on learning opportunities and provides information, advice and guidance to adults who need access to learning.

672.

We have always collaborated with providers in the statutory and voluntary sectors, and with other organisations and interest groups concerned with the learning and support needs of adults. My colleagues will tell you more about what those organisations are. We have never formally advertised our services, but we have tried to make sure that we are known by those community-based organisations that have face-to-face contact with learners.

673.

EGSA has always been keen on getting involved in adult learning initiatives to promote the value of learning. We have always been keen to work with others to improve provision for adults. Indeed, it is one of our activities, within guidance, to feed back to providers of learning what is required or how it is required.

674.

We have always been fortunate in being able to provide a service for people who wanted to learn for whatever reason. In recent years, most of our users have been vocationally motivated. But we also see learning as having a role for people as parents, as consumers, as citizens. It has a strong role in helping them to make a contribution to their communities.

675.

When the programme for peace and reconciliation was set up, we were invited to disburse the funding that was earmarked for the measure to improve access to and quality of education, training and employment services within the employment sub-programme. The Project Funding Support Unit's role is to develop and assess applications. A selection panel, comprising representatives from across the breadth of adult learning interests, takes decisions on the funding applications. Once the funding has been decided on, the unit monitors the activity within the projects.

676.

The Project Funding Support Unit has recently received excellent feedback from the Northern Ireland Audit Office on its operation. The feedback that EGSA gets back from participants - I have included that in this document - illustrates the role of non-vocational learning and also emphasises the strong role of community-based learning as a starting point for learners, and especially reluctant learners.

677.

In that document I have included some evidence from projects of the supporting role of the whole EGSA organisation. Not only does EGSA develop, assess, fund and monitor but, in addition, through the provision of information, advice, guidance and basic skills back-up, it also provides support for community-based projects. In a sense, we are adding value from the whole organisation.

678.

The strategic approach taken by EGSA in Peace I - as we have come to know it - not only assisted more adults to access learning, but it also laid the foundations of work that we have been building on through the lifelong learning agenda. We are currently preparing a strategy for Peace II that will build on the experience and knowledge gained through the careful administration of Peace I. It will match and complement the lifelong learning agenda and support the Northern Ireland Executive's policies for education and training.

679.

The lifelong learning agenda that was published in February 1999 in Northern Ireland included three initiatives for EGSA - the Information, Advice and Guidance Network, the Basic Skills Unit, and the most recent addition to our services - the Learn Direct helpline. We set that up in partnership with Broadcasting Support Services (BSS), which is an English-based organisation that has been operating helplines in Manchester and Leicester for the past few years. The helpline is accessed through a Freefone number. The advisers who staff the helpline provide information and advice on learning opportunities, and because they are based in EGSA, they can refer callers for further information, advice and guidance, or for additional support in the area of basic skills. Those are a few key points that summarise the organisation.

680.

Ms Speers: EGSA's information and advice work is largely by phone, and this year it attracted just under 4,000 calls. The Learn Direct helpline has fielded over 3,000 calls and some of those requested packs in response to broadcast initiatives. The guidance service has seen just under 5,500 people, on either a one-to-one basis or in groups. That reflects the growth and strength of the organisation following the government lifelong learning initiative.

681.

We gathered statistics on many of the individuals that we have contact with. There is a big difference between the percentages of men and women - 35% male and 65% female. That is also reflected in research across the water. There is an even age spread, although only 2% were over 55, but 65% of the people who we saw were in the 25 to 44 age range. Thirty five per cent were employed and 38% were unemployed. Others were not in the range where those statistics affect them.

682.

We now cover a much wider area because of the change in the structure of the organisation. We used to be very Belfast-based, but that is no longer the case. About 28% of the people in these statistics were Belfast-based, and about 20% of them were in other Education and Library Board areas, with about 10% of people in the Southern Education and Library Board area.

683.

We asked people what prompted them to come to us. This is an interesting piece of evidence about learners because it applies to people whatever their present educational qualifications or aspirations. The major motivation is work-related, getting on in a job, changing job, or getting a job. Almost equally important is the motivation to learn for personal development, for the family or for the community.

684.

Those statistics of motivation are true of the ABE helpline which we operate. Some people have basic skills problems and slightly more of those are unemployed, as we would expect. But the motivations are the same for this group of users - to improve employment prospects, for personal development or for family reasons.

685.

There are a few things about adult learners that make them different from other younger learners, and the most obvious difference is their adultness. Adult learners demand respect and demand to be treated with dignity and confidentiality in all transactions. They have fine sensibilities and some may feel a little uncomfortable if they have little experience of the formal learning situation.

686.

Anyone who is engaged with adult learners will be aware of their rich variety of skills and abilities. Through life, people develop the capacity to cope with things, but they do not realise that they are learning in the process. They have not been taught; they find out how to deal with things for themselves. But that learning is part of the make-up of that person and contributes to the process of getting them back into learning.

687.

We all lead busy lives and time and energy is at a premium. Therefore most adults study part-time. Many are short of money and have to prioritise how they spend it - even if they have lots of money - and putting themselves first is difficult. If they are on benefits, they have to work within the rules of the benefits system. Sometimes that can be crushing and can interfere with the learning progress, depending on how different benefit offices apply the rules.

688.

The attitude of adults towards their learning is crucial. The following important points have been drawn partly from our own experience and partly from published research on work across the water, particularly Veronica McGivney's research. There is a scarcity of research on adult learning in the North of Ireland. Many adults' attitudes to returning to learning are coloured by good or bad memories of school and the language of school. Adults who return to learning risk change in how people regard them, their status and their self-respect. There is a risk of failure, and failure is more damaging than not participating. Feelings therefore must be handled carefully.

689.

Tutors in adult learning are very skilful in handling these factors and it is important for the Committee to note this. Some of these attitudes and barriers show up in research as particularly affecting men, who often take a very instrumentalist approach to learning - they are less interested in personal development learning. However, they may be interested if there is a vocational purpose and a job at the end. That also needs to be addressed.

690.

Peer pressure, social context and family influence show up in the research across the water and in anecdotal evidence here. People choose not to participate in learning, rather than being blocked from participating. We are a country with strong community, peer and family ties, and these are influential. If they are influential for learning, they are also a great force for expanding the widening participation agenda. If people are not well disposed to learning, they might experience a contrary effect.

691.

The motivation - whatever it is - is where EGSA starts to work with adults, helping them to identify that they want to make a change. Our organisation tries to move them towards positive motivations. We do not say: "You must do a course in that vocational area". We try to get them started and warmed up, as adult learners on subjects which interest them. EGSA helps them look at choices so the information must be accurate, comprehensive and appropriate. We have, as Ms Kelly mentioned, information on a variety of things other than just learning - vocational information, support information, such as on child care. It would be helpful if information already existing about labour market skills shortage predictions, and so on were readily accessible to adult learners and those who work with them.

692.

Advice must be close to where those adults are, within their comfort zone, and based on accurate information. It also has to be accessible and this is where the phone becomes very useful. Last week, a man rang our Adult Basic Education (ABE) helpline. His employer had asked him to do something about his weak literacy skills and had advised him to phone our ABE helpline, while offering his support and encouragement. The caller still needed to be talked through what would happen to him, how he would be treated and what his choices would be when he got to the place of learning. People need that kind of advice and encouragement, especially unfamiliar learners.

693.

The last part of what we offer is detailed guidance to help people evaluate the big choices they are making. They are investing their self-confidence, money, time and their abilities into what might be changing their employment chances and educational qualifications.

694.

The pay-off can be huge. Anybody who has worked with adult learners is aware of the tremendous and rapid changes that can be made. Once somebody has done one course and has learned about themselves, they have broken the ice and making more ambitious choices is much easier. The converse is also true: if the course does not work, it becomes a very big barrier to going further.

695.

Ms Cinnamond is going to outline how we have developed our services and built on these processes for this kind of user.

696.

Ms Cinnamond: I am going to talk about the work of the EGSA's Information Advice and Guidance (IAG) Network team. The role of the IAG team in the participation of adults in learning is not to deliver learning, but to enable adults to access appropriate learning. EGSA's IAG team offers information, advice and guidance to adults wishing to return to or progress in learning.

697.

The team gathers, collates and holds information on all learning opportunities for Northern Ireland adults, including distance learning and opportunities outside Northern Ireland. It also has information on related areas, such as student finance, access to provision and careers information. The IAG team produces information in formats which others can easily access - for example, a range of information sheets. It also deals directly with enquiries from the public - although Learn Direct is taking on a bigger proportion of those - and from many other information advice and guidance practitioners, in a wide range of situations. The team works very closely with the Learn Direct helpline.

698.

The Adult Basic Education Support Service (ABESS) offers support to potential learners with specific basic skills needs. On one level, that is a referral service, in that they are making the links to the ABE tuition provider, but it also helps develop the confidence and motivation to actually make that first step. A woman phoned in because her father had told her she was stupid just once too often - she was a young mother. She knew she wanted to make those steps but had many fears about what would happen when she went in, whether everybody would know she was stupid if they saw her going into the college, whether it would expose her. She was very emotional throughout the first contact, and it is an emotional area for many people. It took two or three contacts with the ABESS team before she took that step and is now on a learning programme in a college.

699.

Our guidance workers offer a direct service to individuals and to groups. They offer one-to-one guidance with adults to help them to understand their learning needs and to explore the impact of learning on their lives, and to put it into context. Quite often that context is vocational. They deal with a wide range of clients, and vocational choice is a factor for many people - for example, for those who want to re-enter the workforce or people whose work is under threat of redundancy.

700.

One of the interesting things about working with people facing redundancy is that our guidance workers have become involved both with management and workers also, a community group contacted us when a textile firm was closing.

701.

Sometimes people feel unfulfilled in their work, and they want to develop their skills and potential to change their role or to be able to offer more skills in their existing work situation. Our guidance workers also give group guidance to learners and potential learners. Sometimes these people have made a comfortable first step, and they now see that learning is relevant for them and that there is potential for them. Some programmes that offer that sort of thing are the Workers' Education Association's Second Chance programme, the UNISON Return to Learn programme, or courses run by the Belfast Women's Training Services. Our guidance workers add value to those programmes by talking to the groups and enabling progression at the right time when people have got the taste for learning and are thinking about where they are going. There is a real buzz about going into these groups. There is a lot of mutual encouragement, and it helps people to make the next steps.

702.

The guidance is available in the Belfast area, but, as Ms Speers has already said, guidance workers are based in other locations throughout Northern Ireland. As well as delivering direct guidance, they have a very important role in building up our wider Information Advice and Guidance (IAG) network in Northern Ireland. They are forging links and remain an important point of contact for all IAG practitioners. The task of using information, advice and guidance to widen participation in learning is greater than EGSA can undertake on its own. We are not the only people who can deliver it, and we are not always the most appropriate people to do that. A lot of people have to arrive at a certain point of confidence and motivation before they can ever dream about contacting EGSA to make an appointment to see a guidance worker. Through the network, it is important that we establish links with people who can help these individuals further back on the road to learning.

703.

The IAG network brings together a wide range of people involved in information, advice and guidance so that we can share resources - for example, it would not be cost effective for every community group to have the sort of information resources collated that we have at EGSA - everybody can tap into them. We offer mutual support and make appropriate referral. For example, there was a computer course in a women's centre and someone's husband wanted to join in. It was not appropriate for him to do so in that setting, but through the network of appropriate referrals he was helped too. It can share staff development opportunities, and EGSA has been running a series of information and networking sessions that have been favourably received among the IAG practitioners. That will strengthen and raise the profile of IAG for adults. Our guidance network advisors are always trying to form new alliances with potential network members. There is a range of people involved in our network. Earlier this month we had a development day when we looked at things such as a code of practice for the network. There were almost 100 participants from over 60 different organisations throughout Northern Ireland at that day, and the organisations included people for whom guidance is the major part of their role, such as the careers service or guidance people in further and higher education, as well as people from both urban and rural community groups who are reaching people who may not have entered that environment with the intention of learning. They might, for example, be interested in joining the management committee, but be frightened that it would expose their lack of literacy skills. Members of the groups can reach the people who might benefit most from learning.

704.

We have participants from the National Association of Volunteer Bureaux, those who work especially with the traveller community and from employers, trade unions and women's groups. The Simon Community works with us when people are rebuilding their lives and wish to take steps to participate in learning, by helping them to make those links. There are also training organisations, general disability organisations like the Cedar Foundation and more specific ones like the Royal National Institute for the Deaf.

705.

As well as the formal part of the programme we run for the network groups, many informal links have been made, something which is a very important part of our work. For example, someone from a women's group might make direct contact with the Training and Employment Agency's lone parent adviser. A young man from the Royal National Institute for the Deaf was able to offer assistance to community groups - or any other group present - if a potential learner was deaf. Quite often, people working in a similar field in different areas come together and share what they do, realising they have many issues in common.

706.

The building of the network has been greatly strengthened through contacts made and projects started through the Peace Project Fund Support Unit, about which Mr Donaghy will talk later, which is a very important link. We are also actively engaged with Springvale in developing a qualification for community- based practitioners for whom providing information, advice and guidance is part of their role, but not big enough to justify their undertaking a full professional qualification. They need something to help strengthen and support what they do, making them more informed. The Northern Ireland Open College Network, the Community Work Education and Training Network Endorsement of Learning Programme and the Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation Transfer System, to which Ms Kelly earlier referred, are involved. We are also in the very early stages of discussions on developing a similar qualification for further education tutors.

707.

We plan to broaden contact to others who can reach marginalised adults, allowing them to encourage potential learners and signpost them towards appropriate learning. Those groups are people like occupational health workers, learning partnerships, human resource managers and others from the workplace.

708.

The strategic document for the Information, Advice and Guidance network, 'Rising to the Challenge', is at the pre-publication stage and will be launched soon. However, its concepts are already being tested by the IAG network.

709.

Ms Kelly: Ms Connolly will now tell us about the Basic Skills Unit.

710.

Ms Connolly: Thank you very much. The Basic Skills Unit was set up as part of the lifelong learning agenda in 1999 and launched in November 1999. We are a team of seven individuals based in EGSA, with support from our colleagues in the administration support unit and the project funding support unit. Our unit is guided by a committee of 16, with representation from employers, trade unions, the main adult learning providers, the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and the Education and Training Inspectorate. Throughout the last year, we have set up a number of ad hoc committees and working groups to take forward the work of the adult basic skills strategy which we are currently developing. One of those groups, the workplace sub-group, is significant to this inquiry.

711.

The unit submitted a strategic framework to Minister Farren in July setting out the first stage of the strategy, securing the quality framework.

712.

We launched a further document a couple of weeks ago called 'Raising our Sights'. We have supplied Committee members with that document. It is the start of a process to build a longer-term strategy for Northern Ireland. We are working at the unit, with the Committee and with other providers to say that this is a major issue, requiring immediate co-ordinated action, and a long-term strategy.

713.

One of the other major initiatives that we are involved in is the funding of the voluntary/community sector to provide adult basic skills learning opportunities on the ground. In the past year, we have funded 17 projects. They have ranged from farming co-operatives in partnership with local further education colleges to traveller groups and women's education centres. An example is Banbridge Community Network which is currently working with Upper Bann Institute of Further and Higher Education. The programme is designed to enable the farming community to access literacy and numeracy through the medium of information and communications technology (ICT). It was advertised in the local newspapers and in the local farming association, and it had a major impact on the farming community. Eighty-two people turned up on the first night of the programme. It is a huge step for people to come forward and admit that they have literacy problems. Obviously the hook of ICT played a major part in that. Those sorts of programmes have an impact, not only on those who are receiving training, but also on the wives, sons and daughters, and the wider community.

714.

I am sure that many of you are very familiar with the statistic - it is often quoted and is a major issue for Northern Ireland - that 24% of our working-age population are at the lowest level of literacy ability. Literacy is described by the International Adult Literacy Survey (IAL) as both numeracy and literacy. Nineteen per cent of those currently in our workforce are at Level 1. That is approximately 48,000 people. Of those 48,000 people, 75% did not feel that their levels of literacy and numeracy were limiting their job opportunities. That is quite a staggering figure.

715.

Thirty-six per cent of those at Level 1 are unemployed. If the unemployment rate is 6%, those identified in the survey as being in that 36% are slowly but surely moving into our workforce. The percentage of people within the workforce with these difficulties is going to increase year on year.

716.

People with low levels of literacy are most likely to be in receipt of social security benefits, in the lowest income bracket, and have the lowest educational attainment record. David Blunkett - as I identified in the submission to the Committee - was quoted in 1997 as saying that the cost to industry is approximately £10 billion. There is a cost to Northern Ireland, not just in financial terms, but much more in terms of society, as we grow towards creating a new community.

717.

We have already seen the report of the National Skills Task Force and the Report on In-Company Training on Ireland's future skills needs, both of which encapsulate the need to address literacy and numeracy. Both have this issue enshrined within their priority areas. We have an opportunity now to ensure that that is encapsulated within the main recommendations of the Northern Ireland Skills Task Force.

718.

Our growth industries are e-commerce, the finance and personnel industry, and the hotel and catering industry. The increased use of literacy and numeracy in ICT will have an impact on them. As the industries grow, they are going to place further demands on people to improve their literacy, numeracy and communication skills.

719.

A recent survey, conducted by the Basic Skills Agency in England and Wales, found that 17% of people would take up a basic skills learning opportunity if they could get a job, and 13% would take up a learning opportunity if they could progress within their current job.

720.

In Northern Ireland, we can give people incentives, and we can motivate them, yet provision on the ground is scarce, limited, ad hoc, lacks coherence and is virtually non-existent within the workplace. There are currently 5,500 people participating in adult basic skills learning opportunities across Northern Ireland. Only 6% of those are being catered for by New Deal, yet 36% of unemployed people are at Level 1.

721.

There is very little activity happening in the workplace. We carried out a survey in association with Business in the Community recently, which involved 1,700 businesses. The majority of those, 92%, were small to medium-sized enterprises, some 71% did not offer basic skills training of any kind. A further 47% did not think it was actually necessary to offer this, yet we know from research that adults prefer to learn in the workplace because they have perhaps had a bad experience in school.

722.

It is clear that we need to address the small and medium-sized industries further. We have lessons to learn from our colleagues in the Republic of Ireland and England, but we need to look at the micro business in Northern Ireland - the small owner/manager business. The issue of funding lacks coherence right across the sector. Where you actually access provision varies. What you are charged is different. Adults who have missed out on basis skills the first time round should have free entitlement.

723.

People need access to information, advice and guidance, and as you have heard from my colleagues, not just individuals but employers also need to know how to work their way through the learning maze. We need to know about research, what actually works, what will work, and what is actually going to improve levels of literacy and numeracy. Two hours a week over the course of a year is surely not going to improve a person's literacy and numeracy skills.

724.

I want to talk very briefly about the future. The document, 'Raising Our Sights' is a start. This document is not a definitive model. It is the start of a process, which we hope will engage those who are maybe outside the adult learning field at present. This is a society issue, and not just an issue for education. Further to that, the workplace sub-group will also be submitting a work place basic skills strategy in early 2001. We have the opportunity through the Northern Ireland Skills Task Force, and we need to be looking at this as a cross-departmental issue.

725.

We have raised a number of issues that need to be addressed - research, building the capacity, increasing our tutor base and looking at the marketing promotion in the broadest sense. We also need to look at local action planning, target setting, and not least, context specific target setting because we need to look at our growth industries, where they are and how we can tackle them, as well as how we can ensure that the opportunities are going to be available for people within those sectors.

726.

We need to de-stigmatise and promote the culture of adult literacy and numeracy within and beyond our workplaces, and we now have an opportunity to maximise the potential of ICT with the excellent Information Advice and Guidance services that are open to people in Northern Ireland. The workplace sub-group raised an issue on a number of occasions which it would also like to see addressed, which is that we need to ensure that the upstream is being tackled as well. I know we work very closely with our colleagues in the Education and Training Inspectorate, and I know a number of initiatives are being worked on within the Department of Education as well. We do not want our current school leavers to become the adults with literacy and numeracy difficulties of tomorrow.

727.

Ms Kelly: Finally, Kevin Donaghy is going to explain how we are using peace and reconciliation funding in education and training.

728.

Mr Donaghy: I know you have taken many statistics, but I am going to be very brief about this. We have heard about the learners and the activities of EGSA, and I want to look at what has been achieved with the use of the European Union Specialist Programme for Peace and Reconciliation and, specifically, the Employment Sub-Programme Measure 3 which concerns the improvement of accessibility to, and quality of, education, training and employment services.

729.

To date we have funded 98 projects, 53 of which are still live or nearing completion today. Some £4·3 million has been allocated to a range of groups, including many groups who have never been able to access or receive any source of funding before. We have had over 25,000 participants on those programmes, and we have funded 154 jobs, both full-time and part-time. The participants have gained in excess of 20,000 qualifications - those range from Open College Network (OCN) Level 1 right through to degree or masters level qualifications. We have also provided 24,000 hours of guidance.

730.

We have developed a range of courses, but particularly Open College Network accredited, which will have a value under the Northern Ireland Credit and Accumulation Transfer System and will allow participants to progress into more formal learning programmes. We have produced a range of resources which will be of use to others - particularly outside the field of the Peace Programme - that can be used in the wider adult learning field as a whole.

731.

I think you have all received a copy of our list of funded projects. I do not intend to go into any of those in great detail, but I will give a few examples. We provided a small grant in Antrim to carry out a feasibility study on providing open learning facilities in that area, and a major grant in east Down, to provide a family learning programme looking at the pertinent issues of ABE, ICT and personal development.

732.

In a couple of projects we as a funding organisation looked at the issues of sustainability, which is always very pertinent in funding. We decided that the money would be best spent if they trained a cohort of tutors, which would remain in the community and become a tangible community asset after the funding had ceased. Those are some of the projects. The rest are detailed in the booklets.

733.

After the decisions have been made by our selection panel, our role is to make sure that the money is administered to the groups appropriately, as dictated by the European Social Fund regulations. Verifying and vouching expenditure is time consuming and labour intensive, but it ensures that the money is providing the best value.

734.

We also add value in a community development role. Many groups we have funded have never received funding before and they have no idea of the principles of accounting or accountability. We spend time developing monitoring and control systems, which are useful when the funding stops or if the groups get funding from another source.

735.

We encourage and support the development of partnerships with these projects in order for them to look at the issue of sustainability and to widen their area of access. For example, funding was given to a further education provider in the Coleraine area to develop its provision of outreach ABE services, and from that, and from its regular contact with the groups, it was able to develop a Community Education Forum. That forum is now an established vehicle which promotes adult learning and brings all the players together. It also brings in the providers and the courses that are necessary to meet the needs of the local community.

736.

We also encourage the activities of EGSA as a whole. We look to the IAG to help participants progress. We look to the Basic Skills Unit for information and support in developing quality issues around ABE projects. We also look to ABESS for its support in adult basic education in general.

737.

We also look at other funding avenues. When a project comes to an end, questions are asked about other sources of funding, or whether we can act as a sponsor or referee towards another source of funding. We can use the information gathered as part of the monitoring process to help the group to submit an application to another funding body.

738.

Under Peace II, we would obviously continue to work with the Basic Skills Innovation Fund, and there would also be an opportunity to sustain and develop the work begun under Peace I. We want to develop strategies that support and complement the other initiatives under the lifelong learning agenda. We have a particular interest in those classified as non-participants, to ensure that they are ready to take advantage of more mainstream programmes. We want to develop ideas that have a cross-sectoral or cross-departmental theme, such as furthering our work with the rural farming community, ethnic minorities or people with disabilities. We see our work as contributing to the proposal in the draft Programme for Government, which aims to extend accessibility, choice and excellence through the education system, with particular reference to access to high-quality education for all, and to

"provide lifelong learning opportunities to enable people to update their knowledge, skills and qualifications".

739.

We would like to provide programmes and activities to redress the male/female participation imbalance in learning, and to address some of the issues raised in the EGSA report to the Committee.

740.

Mr Beggs: We have a great deal of sympathy with improving educational standards. People need support. We would support your work with individuals and your input to the economy. Ultimately, if trends in employment continue, these people will be needed for employment.

741.

You have spoken about community outreach. Of the £4·3 million you spent in the last tranche, £26,000 was spent in my constituency of East Antrim, where there is no further education college. What are you doing to address this inequality in future funding? How do you encourage applications where there is a weak community infrastructure that is not actively pursuing your money? There are people throughout Northern Ireland who could benefit from your guidance. How will you convince me that Peace II will be spent equitably in every constituency, helping disadvantaged people in all communities?

742.

Ms Kelly: For quite some time we have had no money. Our Peace I money was all committed. The final bit was committed last year. As I am sure members are aware, peace money had to hit the ground so quickly that there was very little scope for further development. We certainly identified gaps in the scope of projects we have funded. We are very keen to work with you and others to ensure that those communities are not disadvantaged next time around

743.

Mr Beggs: Will you actively help people fill in applications, or put the applications together? Some organisations do that. Have you such a role in mind?

744.

Ms Kelly: We consider that good development work and would certainly be keen to do it.

745.

Mr Dallat: My only comment would be on the modesty of your presentation. You made a reference to the Coleraine area. You will have to convince the Minister, Dr Farren, of the impact there, how those people you trained went back into their own communities and set up community groups, pre-school groups and after school homework clubs. It transformed the whole community, which was divided by sectarianism, social disadvantage and other things.

746.

I speak with some emotion because I understand the problems. You must help the Committee to get the message across to the Minister - he has to give you a fair share of the cake. It is disgusting that 24% of the population suffers the worst indignity of all, the inability to read and write. I am embarrassed that your organisation has been in existence for 20 years and it still has to come cap in hand. If the Assembly does nothing else, I hope it will address that problem. If it does, the Committee will rise on the tide.

747.

The Chairperson: I am sure that the EGSA representatives will be very pleased to hear your comments.

748.

Mr Dallat: I hope that the Minister also hears them.

749.

Ms Kelly: I am keen to take your advice on how to further promote the work of EGSA. The adult learning centre at the Causeway Institute of Further and Higher Education is an education forum that we would be keen to replicate in the Larne and east Antrim area.

750.

Mr Beggs: I would welcome some information on that.

751.

Mr Dallat: The Committee could go to Coleraine to see what EGSA has done for disadvantaged people.

752.

Mr Carrick: During the presentation you said that funding across the Province lacked coherence. Will you develop that issue and give us your views on how improvements could be made?

753.

You also said that there is a weakness in the training by employers. Would some incentives for training induce a better environment in the work place?

754.

As for the efficiency of EGSA's programme and a joined-up approach to providing advice, is EGSA comfortable with its relationship and partnership with New Deal, career guidance, officials in further education colleges, the Training and Employment Agency, training providers and employers. Is there scope for improvement? If so, can you identify the weaknesses and tell the Committee how improvements could be made in a joined-up approach? I suspect that there may be areas of overlap and unnecessary duplication.

755.

Ms Connolly: You first referred to funding and the lack of coherence in funding across the adult learning sector. Adults may access literacy and numeracy programmes through the new University for Industry centres (UfI) or Learn Direct centres that have ICT provision free at access point. There is also 80% provision based in further education colleges, not all of which is based in the college, but in partnership with community groups.

756.

Much work takes place in the voluntary sector. As mentioned previously, the ending of Peace I moneys means that there is an interim period where there is a gap. However, there is a plethora of funding opportunities. Funding comes from DHFETE, the New Opportunities Fund (NOF), the National Lottery and from Europe.

757.

People who access as individuals may have to pay. In many cases it is a nominal fee, but there are additional costs such as child care and travel costs. There is no consistency. There is no model in the work place for accessing funds for adult basic skills and learning opportunities.

758.

We have a situation - it is not quite a pilot project - in Moy Park Ltd in Craigavon, where there is a partnership approach. The Department funds Upper Bann College and is also in partnership with Moy Park. There are some models that we could look at and build on.

759.

In answer to your question, there is a lack of coherence and the work place subgroup is currently looking at this issue. I hope the Committee will welcome its strategy document when it is produced early in 2001.

760.

You also asked about what incentives we could give to people. The work place subgroup has also been looking at that issue and at what strategies are in place in England and the Republic of Ireland.

761.

Some of the discussion has centred around incentivising work places through the Investors in People award, and making explicit the literacy and numeracy elements, to ensure that those learning opportunities are offered to employees. There is talk about giving tax incentives to employers to encourage learning opportunities in the work place. Learning from others is as useful as anything else. We would like to see champions of the issue.

762.

We hope to address many of these issues through the work place strategy, and we would be more than willing to share our views with the Committee.

763.

Ms Kelly: On the third question about the joined- up approach, we see ourselves as taking the lead in assisting DHFETE to formulate a strategy for guidance and basic skills. We are working very closely with the Careers Service and, as Ms Cinnamond and Ms Speers explained, with the other players in the field.

764.

Ms Speers: It is a very clever, interesting and important question. The network structure is an attempt to avoid duplication and harness, on a local level, everyone who has a guidance and information and advice role for adults. We each come at it from a slightly different angle, and we have told you at length what our angle is.

765.

Although the Careers Service deals with all ages, its work is mainly with younger people in colleges - it is in-house. By working together, nobody misses out, and by working on a local level and sharing together we use resources efficiently. That is already starting to work on a local level.

766.

Another thing we are experiencing through network events is what happens when we invite people with similar tasks to meet in a town the size of Newry, for example. One woman was giving advice in a centre for abused women and met another woman who was advising New Deal clients. They had not met before but they realised how similar their processes were. The person working with disadvantaged adults realised how valuable it would be to call in someone from New Deal. With local networks we hope to get collaboration and not duplication.

767.

Ms Kelly: We are also concerned about the quality of information, advice and guidance that we are delivering and that our network members will deliver. There are Quality Standards, which have been developed by the Guidance Council, which we are implementing in our own practice and sharing with members throughout the network.

768.

Mr Hay: I have a couple of questions. On the funding that you are providing, is that the same programme that is coming through the partnerships?

769.

Ms Kelly: Yes. We are a sectoral partner, in the employment sub-programme.

770.

Mr Hay: In 1996 there was Peace I, and then there was Peace II. All of Peace II must be spent by June 2001. Are we now into Peace III?

771.

Mr Beggs: No, we are at the start of Peace II.

772.

Ms Kelly: We are actually still in Peace I - it came in two halves.

773.

Ms McWilliams: Peace II is not due to come on-stream until June 2001.

774.

Mr Hay: Looking at the projects funded in Londonderry, none of the grant awards were on the east side of the river. Seven projects were funded, all on the west side. There is a large population east of the river, so I wonder why this is the case. Also, how do we tackle the issue of grants in rural areas generally in Northern Ireland, areas which seem to have lost out totally? Getting people involved is a problem, especially in remote areas. Looking at the awards highlights the fact that rural areas are not covered as well as they should be.

775.

How do you evaluate applications, and what sort of benchmark is there about peace funding and people receiving the awards? How do you evaluate the groups who are to receive the money?

776.

Ms Kelly: There are three questions, so if we take the third one first, Mr Donaghy will deal with evaluation.

777.

Mr Donaghy: When evaluating a group, you consider its ability to handle the money, what it will do with it, and its proven track record. Many groups had no proven track record of handling the amount of money they might receive. There is an in-depth consultation with the groups involved to get to know them. We will already have worked with some of the groups, providing advice and guidance from other avenues, and sometimes we know some of the players in a group. We may have some general information about the group, but we need to build on that through contact at first application stage. You determine if the group has a structure and a management committee, or if it could put a structure in place that would allow us to give it some funding. The group may apply for more later, and it is up to a selection panel to decide if its idea warrants the extra money. The selection panel spends a lot of time discussing and evaluating the appropriateness of a group, and considering if its project is achievable, or has it been tried elsewhere and failed. The selection committees' members have a broad range of interests, and they cover many fields within the adult learning sector. They use their knowledge from previous projects or experience from other areas when considering a group and its capabilities, and getting funding can be a long drawn-out process.

778.

Mr Hay: Would you look at the capacity building within a group, if that were necessary?

779.

Mr Donaghy: Yes. In my previous role as a Development Officer under this programme I spent a lot of time with groups considering their ideas. After a few selection panels you get a feel for the idea, and where the money is best suited. You may tell a group that it is a worthy project, but some issues need strengthening. Our selection panels may look at a route of progression, and ask the group to build this into their application. EGSA can provide that service, so if the groups build that into their project we could have two guidance sessions, perhaps one at the start and one at the end. People can complete the project and then consider the best avenue for them. You bring in players or ideas from previous selection panels or successful projects, and you tell the group what needs to be strengthened or developed in a different way.

780.

Ms Kelly: My answer concerning the rural areas is similar to my answer on the Larne question. The speed with which the money had to get there did not leave us much scope for development. Many of the projects that we funded were Belfast-based organisations with a complete coverage of Northern Ireland. One that springs to mind is the Workers' Educational Association, which operates throughout Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders (NIACRO) and the National Union of Students-Union of Students in Ireland (NUS-USI) got funding from us. They cover all parts of Northern Ireland. But we would be very willing to take your advice on how we could target those rural areas in future.

781.

As for the west bank in Derry, there are some projects like the Verbal Arts Centre, for example, or the Forum for Community Work Education which might have addresses in the west side, but which cover the whole area. However, we would be very willing to work with you on gaps.

782.

Mr Hay: With Peace II coming on-stream next year, have you started to address the areas where there are gaps so that you are prepared?

783.

Ms Kelly: We do not know if we will receive funding under Peace II. We very much hope that we will, so yes, we have started to work on our strategy and to look at those areas that we have not been able to cover. We await information on how Peace II will be delivered and whether we have a role.

784.

Mr Byrne: Thank you for the presentation. It is very worthwhile and addresses the needs of a particular group of people that we have not heard much about in the past. My question relates to the different organisations that you depend on for delivery. How do you feel about the Basic Skills Units within FE colleges? Reference was made to the Workers' Educational Association. Is a formal place like a college the best location for providing basic skills training, or would community centres near people be better? What is your attitude to formal qualifications or some competence based assessment for those people? Regarding Peace II, Mr Hay asked about formulating a bid because some people want a greater emphasis on economic objectives rather than social objectives.

785.

Ms Kelly: As for where adult basic education should be provided, we say that it should be everywhere, and it should be supported wherever it is. Obviously we are concerned about the quality of adult basic education.

786.

Ms Connolly might be best placed to deal with the first two questions.

787.

Ms Connolly: We have mentioned specifically that 80% of provision currently takes place within further education colleges, due to a historical background. Funding is directed accordingly. We have put forward a strategy that adults do not choose to learn in one particular environment. We want to engage adults with basic skills learning opportunities wherever those adults are. People do not stand up in the street, wave their arms and say "I have literacy and numeracy difficulties". These people are one of the most difficult groups to reach out to.

788.

If someone is in his or her local community centre, someone there can work as a mentor to facilitate that learning and can help them progress. This has often been referred to as the "barefoot doctor approach". We should allow for the fact that a person can choose. If they go to their local further education college, it raises their self-esteem. If they are going to college, they are studying. We can engage people in the work place. We should not only look at one provider of opportunities. We should reach out and support right across the board.

789.

You referred to formal qualifications. People now know about and value the availability of certification and qualifications. They know they can hold their head up and say "I have a qualification and can succeed and show that to my employer. I can move on and progress", which raises a person's confidence and self-esteem. They have something which shows their worth and ability.

790.

Sometimes qualifications are the only route and this can become a barrier. If we are going to look at an adult basic skills strategy for Northern Ireland, we have to look at all the opportunities. People must be funded to learn about learning, not just to learn for specific outcomes. People who choose to learn need to be encouraged and supported to work towards a goal. One single model will not fit all people and we need to look at the breadth.

791.

Seventy-five per cent of people who access further educational colleges attain qualifications, but that is not their main incentive for accessing learning. The main gain is the confidence they acquire.

792.

Ms Kelly: In relation to your third question, the economic emphasis on Peace II. I reiterate that there is more to learning than economic value. As far as we are concerned there is more to Peace II than economic value. We have submitted what we can and would look to the members' support.

793.

Ms McWilliams: I love the names of some of these projects that have been funded. There are a couple here: "Men, the Way Ahead" and "A Programme for Isolated Men".

794.

The Chairperson: Do not make political capital out of this.

795.

Mr Beggs: There are a few women's groups as well.

796.

Ms McWilliams: There is another great one called "The Wise-up Project".

797.

The Chairperson: Are you going to say who that is for?

798.

Ms McWilliams: On a serious note, I see that you gave a large sum of money, £80,000, to the student body to advise them on their finances. This is an issue for another day, but I wonder how easily it sits, as it concerns how students can access funding for other projects. That would not be the highest priority on my agenda.

799.

The report is excellent because it flags up where the problems are and you are very open and straightforward. We are familiar with some of the more serious problems. It might be tough at this stage since you have just kicked off on this new strategy, but one thing you note is the lack of consistency in relation to the programmes across the providers. It would be great if we could get our heads round the differences that exist between what is going on in further education, in the voluntary sector, and in the adult learning sector.

800.

There is an issue around training and around accreditation and who is getting what for what. I have two related questions. Are the national standards produced by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority for England appropriate for Northern Ireland? Did you get a chance to feed into them now that you seem to be allowing yourself to see them through?

801.

You refer to a national test for Northern Ireland. Is that something new in relation to yet another steering group? Do we need a qualification and curriculum authority for Northern Ireland? This Committee will recommend pointing to the future. England has a Qualifications and Curriculum Authority, we do not. Do we need one, given that there is such a range of inputs into the curriculum and a variety of outputs? You queried what two hours per week over a year could do for anyone.

802.

Did I hear you right when you said that Blunkett had argued there was £10 billion being lost to the economy through lack of numeracy, literacy and basic skills?

803.

Ms Connolly: Yes.

804.

Ms McWilliams: We should probably try to work out what the figure would be for Northern Ireland - a quick calculation tells me it is £200 million. That is a sizeable sum of money, so if we were to do some kind of balance sheet, that is probably one of the ways we might come at this. The range of inputs and the consistency is certainly one issue, and you have now set up a number of groups on these issues. Given people's different standards how would you deal with, or reconcile, the flexibility that you may still want to retain?

805.

I am worried about the lack of consistency in training for tutors. You said that there is very little graduate training for adult literacy. I do not think that just anyone can do this work; highly skilled individuals need to do it. Is graduate training still an issue, because you seem to have highlighted it as a big problem in Northern Ireland? Although you might need flexibility, it seems to me that there may be too much flexibility - that might be too heavy a criticism. Would you respond to that, because this is clearly something that this inquiry needs to address?

806.

Ms Connolly: You have clearly identified the four key areas that we have been asked to advise Government on in the first year: national standards that have been developed by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority in England; a new adult basic skills curriculum; national tests; and an initial tutor training framework.

807.

These objectives were set for us by Minister Farren, and we have been involved with the Moser Report, which I am sure you are familiar with. We have been involved in the Moser activity - the technical implementation group - to look at what is being developed in England, in order to look at its appropriateness to Northern Ireland, to look at what is happening in the Republic of Ireland, where some £73·6 million has been allocated to take forward a literacy and numeracy strategy, and also to look at what is happening with our colleagues in Scotland. We are not looking at only one model, but we have been asked specifically to look at all the Moser recommendations.

808.

We have consulted widely, right across the adult learning sector, on all these issues. We have set up a number of curriculum projects - in particular, in the voluntary sector, in the work place in association with New Deal, and in the further education colleges - to look at what is needed, because it is not a matter of simple transplantation, as it may not be relevant.

809.

We must find out what we need in Northern Ireland, what is going to work best for us, how to assure quality, and especially, as you have said, to look at that breadth. A key area is partnership, and through the innovation fund we have already shown how we can work in partnership, where further education staff are working with those in the community sector.

810.

Not just anybody can go out and teach literacy and numeracy because it is skilled work. It is a skill in itself to work with adults. We are looking at different models and pilot projects and the standards of the curriculum documents that have been developed in England to see if they would suit here. We are also looking at what we would need if they do not suit and what we could do to add value for a Northern Ireland context. These issues are very much alive.

811.

To comment on the question as to whether we need a qualifications and curriculum authority for Northern Ireland, we have one that specifically looks at key skills in the National Vocational Qualification (NVQ) base. We also have another regulatory authority in Northern Ireland, the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessments (CCEA).

812.

Ms McWilliams: The question was more to do with whether we need to look at how the bodies are interacting with each other. Currently, two separate bodies set a curriculum. Are they appropriate to this area that seems to lose out? That is really what I was addressing.

813.

Ms Connolly: That is one issue that we have been asked to address by the Minister in a further letter he sent to us. It is one of the key areas that we need to look at, to work closely with these two bodies and see what role they play. Again, as a unit, it will be a Government decision as to which of those agencies is appropriate or what is appropriate in terms of a regulatory authority.

814.

Ms McWilliams: I was not aware that the Minister had asked you to address that. The Committee Chairperson should note that the Minister has written to EGSA asking them to address whether there should be one authority.

815.

Ms Kelly: Not strictly speaking. It is to look at the role of the CCEA in relation to a new ABE curriculum. As far as we are aware, the Department has started to discuss ABE with the CCEA and it is asking us to work with the CCEA also.

816.

Ms McWilliams: I was thinking earlier of ABE for BBC on ICT. Thank you very much.

817.

The Chairperson: There are many acronyms/ abbreviations. That may well have to be the last question.

818.

Mr J Kelly: You will be relieved to know that I do not have any questions for you. They have all been answered already. I want to congratulate you on a very good presentation and I wish you well in your efforts.

819.

The Chairperson: Could I just reiterate what Mr Kelly said. We are all immensely grateful for your attendance this afternoon and would pay tribute to the work which the organisation has been doing over the past few decades and wish you well for the future.

820.

I also had a question but Mr Byrne anticipated it. Where is the best place to do adult basic education? I have already picked this up in my local experience in South Belfast. I am aware of the work of two groups that you work closely with. The point they keep making to me is that even in a relatively small geographical area of Belfast you need to be very close to the provision of adult basic education. Therefore, there are advantages in relation to outreach in having a facility directly on people's doorsteps.

821.

My colleague, Mrs Joan Carson, could not be here today, but had a question which I suspect you will not be able to answer today. She wanted to know how many people were involved in your schemes in the Tyrone area which she represents, but perhaps you might answer her in writing.

822.

Thank you again for coming. What you have said is really interesting. Thank you also for the written submission to the Committee, which obviously we will take note of.

823.

Ms Kelly: In conclusion, we have jotted down the principles that I outlined at the outset. On the note I have also listed conclusions that were drawn up in a recently published report on adult learning in England from the Institute for Employment Studies. The conclusions it reached are similar to those we reached about the role of adult learning. We have added in a few recommendations which summarise the points we have been making today. I will leave these notes with you. I know that Mr Beggs was at the launch of this document, which was an evaluation of our work with the reconciliation funding. We have copies if members would like to have them.

824.

The Chairperson: Thank you.

top
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 30 November 2000

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly

Witnesses:
Mr D Elliott )
Ms L McBriar )
Mr B Turtle ) Association of Northern
Mr R Mullan ) Ireland Colleges
Ms R Lavery )
Mr J Blayney )

825.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon, Ladies and Gentlemen. It is my great pleasure on behalf of the Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment Committee to welcome you and thank you for your participation in our inquiry. You are all extremely welcome. We are sorry that the table is not big enough to seat you all, but I would stress that, when it comes to questions, the most appropriate people in the overall group should feel free to respond. We will begin with a short opening statement from yourselves and then move to questions.

826.

Ms Lavery: Thank you Chairman. May I start by saying that Mr David Hunter is unfortunately unable to be with us because of a family bereavement. I hope that I have not mixed up your preliminary plans by asking various people to sit at the table with me. They are John Blayney (vice-chairperson), Raymond Mullan (past chairperson), Brian Turtle, and David Elliott of BT. There is one other change to our paper work - Mr Peter Gavan represents the Veridian Group generally, rather than NIE.

827.

I will say a little about the Association of Northern Ireland Colleges (ANIC), and then I will ask Mr Mullan to develop the theme of economic development. The ANIC is the key voice for further education in Northern Ireland. It represents 15 of the 17 colleges, and its role has been very diverse in the two and a half years of its existence. It manages the College Employers Forum so that further education can benefit from collective bargaining. It co-ordinates an efficient curriculum and staff development service for the further education sector, including projects such as "Lecturers into Industry" for updating and further developing the skills of lecturing staff. This is achieved by providing a GNVQ skills advice co-ordinator and a key skills co-ordinator. Furthermore, we supply a support network for professional staff involved in the further education sector. This ensures that there are separate network groups for professionals such as human resources managers, finance officers and estates managers.

828.

We run several committees on behalf of the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment, and we act as a sounding board and liaison point for both the sector and the Department.

829.

We recently developed a special protocol with the Council of Directors of Institutes of Technology in the Republic of Ireland because we feel that the sector has much to learn from the institutes of technology in the Republic. We also have close working relationships with our counterpart organisations in the United Kingdom.

830.

We have done a lot of thinking and planning with regard to economic development. Mr Mullan will explain some of it to you.

831.

Mr Mullan: I presume that you have already received a copy of our paper. It is a summary of our objectives in relation to economic development. I shall go through it in bullet points; you can go through the document in greater detail, if you wish.

832.

We held a conference, entitled "Skills for 2000 and Beyond" in the Hilton hotel in Belfast a week ago. The key aim of the conference was to refine the vision of the role of further education in the economic and social development of Northern Ireland. The discussions that took place will be published in January, and we will circulate a copy of that document to you.

833.

We presented an action plan on the role of further education in economic development to the Minister. I have that document here. In summary, it says that there is a need to promote what further education does more vigorously. We want to see the further education sector involved in creating strategies for economic development, as happens in other countries, including our near neighbour, the Republic. We want to be involved in inward investment planning. We are pleased that, following our conference with IDB in May, colleges are consulted when inward investors come into an area, and this week I have had two meetings with potential inward investors. That change has come about as a result of our meeting with IDB, LEDU, and others, in May.

834.

Economic development should be centrally co-ordinated. In other words, Departments should be talking to each other and to us. We note that careers guidance is being reviewed, as was mentioned in 'Strategy 2010'. We welcome that, and perhaps we can say more about that later. We want to see a mechanism through which colleges can work with the IDB, LEDU, T&EA, the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and others. At the moment, such work tends to be a little ad hoc, so we would like to see a more formal relationship. Colleges can offer only what is required by industry, and sound knowledge of the labour market is the basis for our strategic planning. Every year, we draw up a development plan and it covers the two following years as well. Good information helps us to develop more relevant plans.

835.

Qualifications have changed and are still changing. The nature of the qualifications should be clarified for the benefit of employers, students and school pupils. We should review the role of the further and higher education sectors in working with the T&EA to promote economic development. Some fairly close links already exist, but they need to be developed. The colleges affiliated to the ANIC need to review constantly what we are doing and how we do it, our policies and how we meet the challenge of economic development. The situation has changed; colleges have changed dramatically in the past 10 or 20 years - even the past five years - and things are changing all the time. We will be lobbying for assistance for an industrialist to help to co-ordinate all of these matters.

836.

Finally, we see ourselves as being proactive and reactive. We wish to be more fully involved in economic development. We are a "can do" sector. We want to continue doing what we have been doing, expand that, be flexible and be able to meet the needs of industry and the economy.

837.

Ms Lavery: The principals and industrialists present would be happy to answer any questions the Committee may have.

838.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much for that introduction. Who would like to ask the first question?

839.

Mr J Kelly: How do you see the relationship between industry and education developing? As industry requires educated people, what responsibilities do you think it has, and does it have a role in providing a financial package towards that?

840.

Mr Turtle: We welcomed the additional focus that 'Strategy 2010' placed on further education, plus the emphasis on meeting needs. If we are going to create world-class businesses, particularly small businesses, we need a world-class workforce. We welcome that challenge. Some of the larger industries have been able to define their needs. For example, the Software Industry Federation has put much work into that process. Over the last number of years we have talked to the Software Industry Federation as an association and as individual colleges. At a local level, colleges are working in partnership with local councils and the development organisations. There is plenty of information about what employers need, but it has not been collated very well. In our own area we are examining a web-accessed database on which employers can list their needs, and which will show trainers the needs of employers which learners should focus on.

841.

As for partnership, many colleges have received help in the design of courses. Many use staff from industry to help deliver courses and monitor project work, and a number of colleges have been fortunate enough to work with employers who have helped to resource equipment. I believe that that relationship is blossoming. It works well when the employers have their own regional association, such as the Software Industry Federation. There is also a role for close local links. One of my concerns is that employers are visited by a number of agencies. They collate information regarding the developments and training needs that employers expect to see in two or three years' time. Not all of those are in the public domain. Some of the strategies to use technology to gather that information and make it available will improve access to employers' needs, and, therefore, enhance the relevance of our training.

842.

Ms Lavery: Does that address the substance of the question?

843.

Mr J Kelly: Yes.

844.

Mr Beggs: I want to develop your views on the existing links among colleges, industry and the various Departments. I attended an IDB seminar last night where the deputy director of a local college pointed out that it was the first time that he had been invited to such an event. I found that rather alarming. Can you outline what contact you have had to date with the IDB, LEDU, T&EA et cetera? What is the current level of contact, and how would you like that to develop so that colleges can accurately assess current and future job requirements?

845.

Secondly, I am beginning to believe that careers guidance is an important area. What suggestions do you have to develop relationships in the field of careers guidance so that the openings in industry are fed back to yourselves and the school sector? Our young people should not go along a purely academic route without being made aware of alternatives.

846.

Ms Lavery: I think everyone would like to throw their tuppence worth in here. Those are meaty issues.

847.

Mr Mullan: The ANIC was concerned that colleges had not been contacted or involved when potential inward investors came to an area through the IDB or an agency. At the conference in May, the ANIC asked for consultation on, and involvement and inclusion in, those visits. You say that that was the first time your contact had been invited to an IDB seminar. I have been contacted at least four times since May regarding different visits, but I had not been contacted previous to that. The ANIC saw that as a fault and felt that it was not giving the full picture to industry. When a potential inward investor comes in, the first thing that it wants to know is whether there are skilled people available and what the facilities for training are. Those are the questions that I was asked last night, so it is very fresh in my memory.

848.

The ANIC works closely with the T&EA and has had a series of meetings with them - particularly about the transfer of training centres to the institutes in the last few months. That has helped to cement our relationship. However, there is still a lot of work to be done to develop our work with the T&EA. The issue of Jobskills should be taken to a higher level than it is now, and we need to examine issues such as the needs of adults who are retraining. Can that be done through Jobskills?

849.

There are a lot of plans being discussed at the moment. The ANIC waits to see how those will work out and it wishes to play a role in the planning and thinking.

850.

Ms Lavery: Through the ANIC, all colleges have been participating in a link with industry called "Lecturers into Industry." That has worked in two industries in the past year - software engineering and the hospitality industry - and it is hoped to extend the programme to different industries. This year the programme is slightly broader, with the ambition that there should be some reciprocation by bringing industrialists into the further education colleges to make sure that the information and skills being taught are tailored precisely.

851.

All colleges, as far as I am aware, have a recognised training organisation that provides direct training that is customised to individual businesses or industries. In that respect it would be a shame not to use the expertise of industry.

852.

Mr Elliott: BT's view is that innovation should be at the front edge of the new world. Industry and colleges work together in different ways. The Modern Apprenticeship scheme is a local initiative in which a local college offers a number of modern apprenticeships.

853.

BT had a number of its people go through the European Computer Driving Licence (ECDL). That is a Europe-wide accreditation. It has also had a number of its people go through the CISCO course. CISCO is the electronics that runs the Internet and it is a worldwide accreditation.

854.

Therefore BT is receiving local benefit, modern apprenticeships and Europe-wide accreditation through the ECDL, and worldwide accreditation through the CISCO-type courses. BT's links with colleges have been very strong and beneficial to itself and the colleges.

855.

Mr Beggs: Do you have any comments on career guidance?

856.

Ms Lavery: The ANIC is aware that that is a crucial element of the development of further education, and the issue is currently being reviewed by the T&EA and the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment. The ANIC will press for an independent service, because it appears that no independent advice is provided to most school leavers. Therefore there is a strong tendency to view "academic" courses as the more successful choices. The ANIC is not reaching the brightest young people who could be in wealth-creating roles in our economy because they tend to opt for a more academic pursuit.

857.

Mr Turtle: It is all about information. The IDB did not, in a concerted effort, decide to exclude colleges, but it did not know that we currently have a very high speed, powerful Internet access and that many colleges are well equipped for training. Some colleges, for example, would have 500 higher education learners at HND level, which would be the same size as the University of Ulster for the first three years. That is not well known, and people do not understand what colleges are delivering for their local economy.

858.

We are concerned that if people are not given proper guidance they will make the wrong decisions. If they are allowed to do that, they will not follow a route which will give them the appropriate choices for employment.

859.

Many young people go to a job market, or would have done in the past, and ask to do a particular course. They are given a training credit for it. They then come to us and we have to deliver that training, even though it may not be linked to the needs of the local community. Certainly, at a local level, colleges are joining up the circle involving the schools, industry and the T&EA so that we can have a learning partnership with employers where we identify the needs. We make the T&EA aware of those and encourage them to give out appropriate training credits.

860.

We also go to the schools and say that if we are to deliver, in three weeks, people with appropriate skills to work in call centres, then students need to be developing keyboarding skills in their last year. From that point of view we believe that we could be a local focus for joining up that particular circle and producing effective guidance.

861.

It is important that vocational education be given a status. If parents believe that you do not go beyond brain surgeon and solicitor, and that there is nothing else in life then we will have a problem if they focus on that. That will impact on the outcome of the review of the transfer procedure.

862.

Ms Lavery: One complex area in which careers guidance gets bogged down is the plethora of qualifications that higher and further education have. It is necessary to find a route through that for each individual student, and a guidance service is really required to provide that route.

863.

Mr Carrick: At community level, reskilling and retraining are necessary. This is a tremendous period of change, and it is nice to note that the colleges of further education are coming through that. They want to improve co-ordination and to be proactive as well as reactive. That is evident and is to be welcomed. However, in some areas there is a severe skills shortage. ICT is one of the examples given, but there are also other areas at community level. What is the ANIC doing to encourage people in the community into those subject areas where there are identified skills shortages? On a regional as well as a local level, what proposals do you have to reach out into the community to entice or induce them to embrace and manage the change that we are all involved in?

864.

Mr Mullan: Last year the Department of Education provided access initiative money which many colleges used in different ways. One way was to buy a mobile IT unit, which has been very heavily used, and to go into community centres. Some colleges put their slightly obsolete machines in community halls. There has been a big growth in community education in ICT and other skills. The big issue for us is the increased involvement of the community. We sometimes have to go out, instead of expecting people to come to us.

865.

Increasingly we are doing that. At my own institute, we have more than 40 outreach centres. These have been growing very rapidly, but much more needs to be done. In some cases, there are people in work who may be underemployed. With the scarcity of labour at present, we need to look at reskilling and retraining people and, in turn, to also encourage them to do that. We need to discuss developing a strategy for this with the T&EA. Community education, particularly in IT, is one of our fastest growing developments in these areas.

866.

Ms Lavery: East Antrim Institute has been a leader in this field.

867.

Mr Blayney: Community education is not separate from supporting economic development. It is important that everybody can share in increased prosperity, as well as this ratcheting-up effect. Under this, the underemployed move up a step, the unemployed move into those gaps and we ratchet up, time after time.

868.

Ms Lavery: One other benefit of both the community education aspect of the programme and the out-centre approach, is that it helps us to reach people who may be demotivated with the notion of entering education or returning to study. It is seen to be more accessible and less daunting to enter a community hall or some of the out-centre venues, than going through the front door of a college. Eventually, perhaps two or three years later, these people will often become part of the core student population.

869.

Mr Turtle: We consider ourselves to be champions of the community. There are initiatives that we find out about which perhaps the community would not. It is our responsibility to tailor those initiatives and make them work for the community. Well-known initiatives - such as individual learning accounts - provide us with the opportunity to deliver people with reduced cost education to people. Some colleges have delved into finance made available by other Departments, such as the Leapfrog initiative, enabling them to provide e-commerce training for local communities. With regard to the unemployed, I do not believe that there are adequate resources for them to benefit from these initiatives. There has been a major focus on this sector of the population, particularly by the T&EA. It is understood that there are groups of people, of all ages, who perhaps have only one A level. These people have decided to become employed and are working in garages or at tills in shops.

870.

Other groups in this position include potential women returners. We have had a reduction in the numbers of women in this position by approximately 5.8%. Over a third of women (36%) are neither unemployed nor employed. We need to reach these people. They are not unemployed, so they do not fall within either the New Deal programme or any other means of resourcing, but they have to pay for training. There is no potential for day release. We must find some means of resourcing their learning, while trying to create time for them. People must have a right of access to learning.

871.

Ms Lavery: In industry there are several schemes - operated by further education colleges - that aim to upskill people who are employed at a basic level, by way of undertaking supervisory studies.

872.

Ms McBriar: I work for Eurest Sutcliffe which is the Compass Group - a contract catering company. We have arranged to upskill our workers, most of whom are very low-skilled. Furthermore, the majority are either older or female. We have worked closely with the colleges on training at supervisory level, and we have invested in developing the abilities of existing workers rather than looking to other areas of the labour market. It has been a successful programme.

873.

Ms Lavery: Another example would be a growth industry like Nortel Ltd. In the coming years it will need to employ a workforce that has increasingly higher levels of skill.

874.

Mr Davidson: I am sure that Committee members will have heard the Nortel story at least once. We have placed great emphasis on trying to generate skills that were previously not there. Like BT, we are at the edge of the new world. We have the added advantage of foreseeing what the future will be like, as a result of our experiences in North America. Our North American colleagues are working on the premise that the knowledge you come out with at the end of a degree has a shelf-life of seven years. There is therefore a continual need to learn and relearn.

875.

We are trying to kick-start that through the ANIC and, in particular, our local college - East Antrim Institute. In technician training we are trying to reduce the two-year period for progression from an Ordinary to a Higher National Certificate. We are all learning together as we go along, and have made a great start. We are also working on providing skills in the semi-skilled sector. The institute has been very helpful in providing us with the resources and facilities to do that. Our people are coming in and benefiting from induction programmes; those are transferable skills which will be useful in the new economy.

876.

Mr Dallat: Could I return to something Ms Lavery said earlier? You said that you needed bright students to train in the new skills that will be demanded by the new industries. The sad fact is that your students do not get the same financial support, enjoy the same prestige, or get the same back-up that others do. What should you, this Committee, or the Minister be doing to remedy this? It has hung around us for a long time and implies that students in further education are the poor relation. That issue needs to be taken on board. Also, what are you doing to target the special needs of many of your students, not only in terms of numeracy and literacy, but in relation to geographical location et cetera?

877.

Ms Lavery: The sector generally recognises that we have an image problem. We hope that we can persuade the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment to assist us in developing a new marketing strategy to address this. I wish that every 16, 17 and 18-year-old in the education system was worth a flat rate of financing. It is much more beneficial to have a sixth-form pupil in a grammar school than to provide education for the same young person in a further education college. That is one of a variety of funding problems that we face.

878.

The Access Fund that Mr Mullan referred to is the latest initiative from the Departments. Previously, the Department of Education made special funds available to assist us in addressing needs individually. Such needs relate to young people and mature students with special needs - needs for access because they are disabled or needs for additional learning support because they have learning disabilities or difficulties. All colleges have a number of students who fit into that category, and there is special access funding to deal with individual issues when they arise.

879.

Recently, Castlereagh College used the access funding to plan substantial changes to its building to allow students with physical disabilities access all over the campus on an equal basis with able-bodied students. There are different stories from every college.

880.

Mr Turtle: There is a perception of an image problem to some extent. We have groups of engineers who earn a lot of money. Again, the Nortel story needs to be revisited, because we have groups of students who are being paid and offered a job after an 8-month fast track course. That contributes to an image problem. Our society needs to realise that wealth generation is very important. We need to put that message out. We need to highlight role models, and the training awards and other award ceremonies, are ways of doing that. Perhaps we should look at further education awards and community education award ceremonies similar to the training awards. Regarding people with special needs and geographical disadvantages, colleges are now supporting local councils, LEDU and the IDB to try to bring employers into their area. That support may help in redressing those difficulties.

881.

Mr Mullan: Perhaps I might raise the very important issue of funding for further education in case we lose sight of it. We hear a great deal of talk about higher education and issues such as the transfer procedure, but many students in further education are more or less disenfranchised at the age of 19 when they fall outside the scope of discretionary awards. The discretionary award was a lifesaver for many people turning to education, and it has more or less disappeared now.

882.

In my experience, students are left without much support. Some have had to give up full-time courses and go part-time. The problem needs to be addressed very radically and quickly. If families get a discretionary award, they lose benefits. That acts as an incentive for vulnerable people, in particular, not to carry on in education and improve their lot and employability. It is a huge issue that needs to be addressed.

883.

Ms Lavery: Many hundreds, or perhaps thousands, of students fall into the benefits trap. If they study for too long each week they are no longer entitled to benefits.

884.

The Chairperson: There are 17 colleges at present, representing a reduction on the previous number. However, some might say that the figure is still relatively high for a population of 1·7 million. Is there a problem of fragmentation in the sector - especially as funding tends to follow numbers? The different colleges all work within the system, which is not their fault, but they compete for the same pool of students and go off in their own directions. There is a lack of co-ordination and certain social returns.

885.

In some of the earlier sessions in our inquiry into the training system we got the message, rightly or wrongly, that there is a problem at the so-called sub-degree level, particularly with the Higher National Diploma (HND). It is perhaps not a problem in reality, but in perception. Employers - or perhaps students - are not seen to value HNDs, which have really begun to disappear as qualifications in their own right. They are being used as part of a progression to degree level, which in some ways is a good thing - certainly from the individual point of view. However, that may create shortages in critical skills, particularly in IT, but possibly also in other sectors related to technology and engineering.

886.

Ms Lavery: Perhaps I might address the last issue first by saying that we have not found that many take such a route. We have found most employers value the HND and are somewhat concerned about the introduction of the proposed foundation degree.

887.

The Chairperson: That is what I forgot to ask - what do you feel about the foundation degree?

888.

Ms Lavery: I will ask the professionals here.

889.

Mr Mullan: The report on IT skills highlighted this. It is a chicken-and-egg situation, as Northern Ireland employers have been spoilt for choice for a long time with so many graduates coming out and returning to the system. The majority of firms need highly skilled technicians at HND level rather than doctoral graduates, whom they bring with them in any case. We say very clearly that this may need to be highlighted more to employers. It is a valuable resource which we are not exploiting properly.

890.

Even other vocational qualifications are very seldom advertised - I dare say that also applies to the Assembly Commission - and people are looking for GCSEs, A levels and degrees. The whole value-judgement issue must be addressed. The HND is a very relevant qualification for both IT and business. In my own institute I have not found that there is a problem of recognition. We work very hard and place students with industry for a year. Very often those students are snapped up by the industry in which they are working.

891.

It has been mentioned that many students prefer to go full-time and get a degree, because that is seen as the gold standard.

892.

Nortel Ltd hopes to put that to rest because it is offering opportunities for young people to continue and get those qualifications by part-time study if they want to. Perhaps that is why the foundation degrees are coming into the equation now. We need to talk more about that later.

893.

Ms Lavery: Your first question, Chairman, was about whether 17 was the right number of colleges for the Northern Ireland population. We have not found that colleges are competing with each other for students to any great extent. In fact, colleges are learning, possibly from a deliberate decision at the time of incorporation, to collaborate with each other and share resources. That is still in its infancy, but we are sharing rather than competing to any destructive level.

894.

In Northern Ireland the placement of colleges has been very important for community growth. To the same extent that a village loses its heart if it loses its school, a town tends to be diminished if it loses its further education college. The colleges have very different characters to suit their local identities. In the next few years there may be a rationalisation which will cost us one or two colleges. There seems to be a belief that the catering college, which is our smallest member, is likely to amalgamate with the university. That is a possibility, but it is not yet definite.

895.

Mr Blayney: As a college which is involved in this rationalisation process, we believe that local access is vitally important. There is a danger that if you centralise too much, some of that local access will be lost.

896.

Mr Mullan: You are making the point that the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment seems to be moving towards centres of excellence. We all bid for those during the summer. We have not heard the outcome, although we are waiting patiently for it to be reported. It may well be - to be rational in our thinking - that not every institute can do everything. There may well need to be centralisation. However, it is very important that no area be denied access to further education. There may be, however, a movement to have centres of excellence for study above a certain level. We can also look at the model in the Republic where there are specialisms.

897.

Ms Lavery: I do not know if it would be true of Kilkeel before Newry and Kilkeel merged, but it is certainly true of Newcastle before Downpatrick and Newcastle merged, that Newcastle is a bit poorer for the removal of its own Newcastle college. I used to be a governor of both colleges, and subsequently of the merged college.

898.

Mr Turtle: We are finding, as we involve business in the design of the courses, that the credibility of courses becomes more pronounced. Someone might say that he has an HND in business. However, if Nortel Ltd say that it wants a particular course with certain units in it, and we deliver that as an HNC, then it recognises and values it more. As we engage in dialogue with employers, we will have more tailored courses.

899.

I am here on an ANIC ticket, and I must say that since we established good practices in the colleges, one of our major successes has been curriculum development groups. A college that has found a way of doing something well brings in people from other colleges and teaches them, on a fast track basis, how to do it. We have an event tomorrow morning where colleges that have had some success with community education are preaching to the unconverted, or the semi-converted, to try and spread that good practice. That is one of the major benefits of the ANIC.

900.

Mr Beggs: Do you agree that it is a huge weakness that the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education has gone its own way?

901.

The Chairperson: That is what I was going to ask.

902.

Mr Turtle: Tactics are important. It is one of the areas that I am concerned about. If an organisation wants a member on every committee it goes outside the group. I do not know whether that has been the tactic or not, but we regret that that is the case.

903.

Mr Beggs: Perhaps the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment needs to enforce discipline so that that does not happen.

904.

Mr Blayney: One of the benefits of the ANIC is that it is a voluntary association, and voluntary associations are better than enforced associations. But I accept your point that there is a weakness in that we do not have a single voice for the sector.

905.

Mr Mullan: The ANIC has only been in existence for two years, and we have come a long way in that time. Prior to this we were members of education and library boards and were tied into those boards. I would only have met these people here once every year or so. Now, with the ANIC, we meet regularly. We share views, we discuss issues, we debate, we disagree, we argue and we come up with what we regard as the best way of doing things. It is a very healthy development, and I think we have come a long way in two years, although we have a way to go yet. Working collaboratively we can do that. I regret that not all colleges are together, but then that is not the case in England, Scotland or the Republic either. Unfortunately there are people who, for whatever reasons, want to stay outside and do their own thing. However, we would be stronger if we joined together, and we have tried to do that.

906.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. It has been a very useful session, and we are grateful to you. We could continue this discussion, but we have a number of other evidence sessions this afternoon and we need to move on. We have your written evidence as well. We will carefully consider both that and what you have said this afternoon, and it is likely that we will be referring back to you in the future. We wish you all well in your work.

907.

Ms Lavery: Thank you, Chairman.

top
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 30 November 2000

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Dallat
Mr J Kelly

Witnesses:
Mr P Gallagher ) North West Institute of Further
Mr S Murphy ) and Higher Education

908.

The Chairperson: I welcome Mr Peter Gallagher, Director of the North West Institute, and Mr Seamus Murphy. Perhaps you would like to kick off the presentation with your views on further education and training and then take some questions from the members.

909.

Mr Gallagher: Thank you for inviting us along. An expeditious time change enables me to get back early to the maiden city tonight.

910.

My name is Peter Gallagher, and I am Director of the North West Institute. You have been sent copies of my lengthy CV, so I will pull only one or two potentially relevant items from it. The fact that I have been chairman of the Association of Principals of such colleges in two different member states, the Republic of Ireland, where I was a principal for 10 years, and Northern Ireland, is relevant in the context of some comparisons we make in our submission.

911.

You should have documents that we sent through the Committee Clerk. One document is several pages long and it is the more expansive response to the invitation; a single-sheet submission contains relevant facts about the North West Institute; a double-page submission is a synopsis of a rationale for the underpinning of a policy. I hope that does not sound pretentious. We have also given you some background information. You have a document entitled, 'The Case for the Further Development of Non-University Higher Education in the Derry City Council Area', which was designed, as the name suggests, for a particular locality but it has some general application for Northern Ireland. I prepared that paper in 1997, and it is interesting to see how much of it is actually now in place, which delights me.

912.

I have now been a director of a third-level college for 26 years, and I have to say that this is the most encouraging opportunity I have ever known. I would like to congratulate yourself, Chairman, and your Committee for the level of consultation you are allowing and for the openness and soundings on issues such as fees. It may be a bit impish of me to suggest that I would still like to read the small print on it, because if fees are paid the financial impact would strongly favour the university sector. That could be detrimental to the further education sector, but this is perhaps an issue of detail.

913.

Enough about myself. My deputy, Seamus Murphy, has a very wide experience. He was formerly deputy Director of the Belfast Institute, and made a very wise choice to come to the north-west. He was attracted by the prospect of having two cities to serve - if Mr William Hay were here I would be telling him Derry and Londonderry, of course, but I do not see Mary Nelis either. Suffice to say that he has been attracted by that prospect. He was involved in the Springvale project and is spoken of very highly by Professor Don McCloy and by the vice chancellor of the University of Ulster, Professor Gerry McKenna, both of whom have also been involved in Springvale. He is also the Northern Ireland Convenor for the Association of College Management. He is a member of the Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation Transfer System (NICATS) body. He has been asked to write a seminal paper on foundation degrees for the Standing Conference on Further and Higher Education.

914.

I would like to refer you to the documents. The two-page document is a summary of the case that is outlined in more detail in the longer document. I have tried to put it in a simple form, Chairman. If you find it too simple, that is good because it will be easy to persuade you to let it go. If you find it complex, then that is what you will question me about. The thesis is that there are three ways in which further education can impact on economic development. I was advised by Ms Sung to eschew technology and simply have a cross-table talk. We did not bring representatives from our support industries, although they are legion. In fact, I would be a bit worried if we were seen to choose some and leave out others.

915.

There are three ways in which we can impact on economic development and job creation. Clearly the public sector in Northern Ireland is a major one. There is also inward investment and SME (small to medium- sized enterprise) development. In the summary I have concentrated on inward investment, largely because it is highly competitive. The work for SME support is individualistic and can be done anywhere. I have taken a view that we are heavily dependent, and are likely to remain so, on the USA for inward investment. The bulk of our inward investment in key technology and manufacturing industry comes from the USA. That is likely to remain the case.

916.

However, the USA is increasingly looking to the Far East and India to satisfy its labour requirements. What are the implications of that? I think one of the first implications - as someone who, on behalf of the Industrial Development Agency (IDA) in the Republic and the Industrial Development Board (IDB) in Northern Ireland, was frequently asked to meet with inward investment itineraries - is that you can have difficulty explaining the nature of our further and higher education system to inward investors. Now that we have the prospect of foundation degrees - by the way, I was asked yesterday by Dr Davison to write a pilot for a pre-foundation degree course which we will work jointly with the universities, as we will of course do also with the foundation degrees themselves, and I would like to come back to that - but I think there is a window of opportunity here. Instead of calling it a "foundation" degree, we should think about calling it an "associate" degree, which is what a comparable degree is known as in the USA. I see very interesting parallels between our system and the high school/community college/university combination in the USA.

917.

I have just returned from a study trip to California with the USA, EU and Canada consortium. We have had extensive partnerships in the USA where they have been dealing with a problem which is besetting us here in Northern Ireland. I have managed to persuade my colleagues in the Further Education Consultative Committee that a major impediment to the growth of technology-driven businesses, be they inward investment driven or SMEs, is the low level of achievement among a large section of our population in areas such as maths and physics. It is well known that Northern Ireland has the best-qualified people, but proportionately the smallest number, and a huge number are underachieving in these areas. This is a feature of life in the USA, and since 1991 it has been developing an associate degree and pre-tech prep. Using that as a model, Dr Davison has asked me to write a pilot programme on the pre-tech prep. I will answer questions on that if you want to come back later.

918.

The Republic of Ireland has shown what can be achieved with a dedicated, responsive third-level education programme, which was based on Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) reports. They are now in a curious situation in the Republic of not only having a skill shortage, but also a labour shortage. That could be an opportunity for Northern Ireland, but it could also be a threat. It could be an opportunity in that we might be able to persuade inward investors that they should look north of the border rather than south. On the other hand it could mean that existing wings of USA companies, already positioned south of the border, could be seeking to poach people from Northern Ireland to go south, thus leaving us with a bit of a wasteland. There are signs of both those things happening and we need to be careful.

919.

The bulk of my comments are summarised in the two-page document. I hope you have had time to read them. I will not bore you by reading them because I think that is a terribly insulting thing to do. Generally speaking, we have been involved with the issue of SMEs for a long time. We run the only business innovation centre, which is modelled on the European Business and Innovation Centre (BIC) Network system. We have been doing this since 1985, with particular support from LEDU but occasionally from the IDB and private-sector businesses too.

920.

At one stage we helped set up a venture capital organisation called Investment Equity Limited. We managed to prise £200,000 worth of pension funds out of the American Presbyterian Church, which I thought was a significant achievement. We also managed to draw down 200,000 ecu and approximately £1 million worth of seed capital for small business development. That was rolled out on the back of the Northern Ireland Innovation Programme. Sadly, most of that money has gone, but if you are familiar with the development of SMEs, you will know that there tends to be a very slow rate of return. In this case, the American Presbyterian Church was not interested in soft loans; they wanted equity shares in the small businesses. However, payback time in the small business sector is quite long, and when seed capital is spent it can get lost in there - it has to be continually renewed. Small businesses do not need large amounts of money. They need perhaps £5,000 or £10,000, but it must be at the right time. We have been beavering away at that for some time.

921.

By the way, I would not like to give the impression that we simply have to copy the Republic of Ireland. I think our colleges are better than the Republic of Ireland's colleges. We cover all college activities plus those of FÁS, the Republic's general training organisation, and CERT, its catering industry training board. We are lagging behind in associate degrees, but that is about to change. It is important that this area is properly funded, and that further education is funded on a like-for-like basis with universities and grammar schools. We have been the poor relation for too long.

922.

The extent to which further education colleges have been the poor relation is perhaps best exemplified by my own college. We had the lowest unit of resource of any college in Europe - not just in these islands, but right across Europe. Our funding was 88% of the norm in Northern Ireland. As for physical development, may God forgive the Western Education and Library Board, of which Mr William Hay and I are members. I am sorry he is not here, because he has heard me say that before. We had 6·2 square metres of space per student. The Northern Ireland average is over 8 square metres, and some colleges have 14 square metres per student. If you go across to England, Scotland and Wales or abroad, there are colleges with 22 square metres per student. The physical deprivation of the further education estate is a significant problem.

923.

I would like to finish there. Perhaps Mr Murphy would like to pick up on any issue that I may have missed, or give added emphasis to something. I am anxious to give the Committee maximum time for questions. I am sure we will get the same amount of time in the round as everybody else.

924.

Finally, I should congratulate you, Chairman, before I finish. Lest you pick out something from the documents that I submitted, Mr Alister McReynolds keeps reminding me that Lisburn has a substantial population too. It is a major population area. I would not dream of knocking the documentation, but some of it was prepared for other purposes, and it was pulled together when I was in America. Some of the documents are quite accurate in what they say about us, but it is possible that some other institutions may have successfully played catch-up since then. Please forgive me if I have done another college any disservice - it is not intentional.

925.

Mr Murphy: I want to briefly add one point. I want to draw attention to the capacity of further education colleges to carry out applied research. Currently we are not funded to do so, but much of the university funding through the research base is not applicable to SMEs. There is an opportunity for the further education sector to pick up on that and make a valuable contribution to applied research. We can pick up on other issues during questions.

926.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much for that introduction and the written submission. Who wants to ask the first question?

927.

Mr Dallat: Does the further education sector accept that there needs to be specific emphasis and focus on relevant skills issues?

928.

Mr Gallagher: Yes. Tragically, the lead in much of the training has been taken by national initiatives, many of which have broader application across the water than they have here. However, it must be done in partnership with private enterprise.

929.

It is impossible now for any educational institute - and I sit on the senate of Queen's - to design, for example, a computer degree that would be relevant to the myriad of computer applications that currently exist. Those days are gone. It is even potentially difficult to bring them to a generic base, so that will have to be done in partnership, but we have to be in there, if only to bring back that knowledge to our staff and an awareness of where the skill base is going. We must be there.

930.

Mr Murphy: There are two different angles. You are looking at the vocational skills base - the hard skills - but Province-wide employability skills are also an underlying problem. For many people who are long-term unemployed, or who are semi-skilled or unskilled, the real problem is getting to the interview stage. After the employability skills, the interpersonal development, the ability to fill in an application form, to carry out an interview et cetera have been achieved, you can then talk about the vocationally specific skill for employment. Both are necessary.

931.

Mr Gallagher: I should have told you that we are members of the Manufacturing Technology Partnership with the two universities. That is a private enterprise, largely funded by the universities and ourselves, and it exists to bring industry and higher education into partnership.

932.

You had previously raised the question about relationships within the sector, and between the sector and other elements of higher education. I do not want to be seen as saying it after ANIC has just left, but there is not as much cohesion in our sector as I would like. People are aware of that and are, I think, open enough to seek a solution.

933.

Regarding the cohesion between our sector and the university sector, I think it is at its best level. It is better now than it has been for years, and some credit for that must be given to vice chancellors Gerry McKenna and George Bain. In the context of linkages, in the Joint Information Systems Committee (JISC) we have been contracted to develop the SuperJANET IV national network that runs between the further education and higher education sectors for the whole of Northern Ireland.

934.

Mr J Kelly: ANIC has been in close liaison with colleagues in the rest of Ireland, the Council of Directors of Institutes of Technology, and has developed partnerships with colleges North and South, including a formally agreed protocol. Could you develop on the protocol? Could you also develop on your notion that colleges here are better than those in the Republic?

935.

Mr Gallagher: For a start, as I indicated earlier, we are much more comprehensive, in that colleges in the North cover basically what is provided by the institutes of technology, plus what is done in FÁS. We also cover the catering industry. In the context of our response to industry, it is a virtual one-stop shop. The actual protocol is with ANIC. Our institute is not currently in membership, but in relatively close communion. Our partnerships with the colleges in the South were on the back of my own personal familiarity with the system, having been a principal there for 10 years and chairman of the Association of Principals. We have active, practical working arrangements with two or three colleges and have joint-ventured with them several times, most notably with Tallaght, Sligo and Letterkenny, and also universities in the Republic. For 10 years I was on the governing body of what is now Dublin City University. We are in close communion with colleges in the Republic of Ireland. It would be very hard not to be, having worked with them for 10 years.

936.

Mr Murphy: An important point is that the institutes in the South are currently looking northwards in terms of good practice as well, because they recognise that the 18 to 21 market has peaked. They are now looking at a lifelong learning agenda, the part-time adult agenda, and widening their base. It is a two-way flow.

937.

Mr Gallagher: I have, however, qualifying remarks about our being better. There are areas in which institutes in the South are significantly better; they are much better funded and better resourced. They have been able to make much better use of World Bank money - nearly all their buildings were paid for by the World Bank. In addition, they were far better at availing of their Objective 1 status, largely because they did not have to operate through Westminster and suffer its approach to additionality, which we had to deal with. Now that Objective 1 is coming to an end, I hope that we will find a way to change people's minds about that. This was an area in which they were particularly good. They have also benefited from the economic upswing in the Republic and they are now awash with money.

938.

As Mr Murphy said, applied research is crucial to our colleges in relation to the support we give, particularly to small businesses. Another relevant feature is that our system is funded in relation to what work is carried out in the classroom. No account is taken of the large amount of work we do in support of business development. No funding recognition is given for that and we must examine this point when dealing with funding arrangements.

939.

Mr Carrick: I have two separate questions but they are linked. The institute has stated that it will not presume to offer suggestions about the delivery of the wider school curriculum, but the Committee would like to hear your views on this issue and on how that curriculum can be applied to the further education sector. Secondly, what are the institute's views on allegiance to national programmes, such as GNVQ programmes? The institute has also stated that these courses do not necessarily benefit the region when there is such a highly competitive global economy.

940.

Mr Gallagher: I will answer the questions in reverse order. The concept of GNVQ programmes was brilliant but they have lost their way. Sadly, they are no longer higher vocational courses and they are insufficiently tuned to the work place, which was the original intention.

941.

The wider curriculum is of particular interest to me. I spent the first four years of my career as a primary school teacher and another five years in the secondary sector, so I recognise the importance of continuity. The Department plans to establish better links between the secondary sector and the further education sector ¾ that is of particular importance. For years we have been haemorrhaging some very good people who were not hacking it at A level standard. Many of those who were performing to standard were hacking it only to the point where they could get on very "soft courses" - courses that were not yielding jobs.

942.

Our institute is working in partnership with two private organisations, Bic Systems in Belfast and Western Connect in Derry, through the Rapid Advancement programme. This is an intensive one-year programme in IT skills for 750 graduates in disciplines that are not yielding jobs.

943.

I am not opposed to studying for a degree for the sake of the subject, but this issue must be examined carefully in the context of priorities for funding. There is an opportunity to correct the terrible waste of young people who do not even reach the entry point for some of these "soft courses". We feel particularly strongly about that because we have been trying to maintain high standards in our HND courses. It is, however, disconcerting to discover that people who do not meet our HND standards, because of their levels in maths and physics, are being accepted to study degrees in similar disciplines. Many are dropping out of university after a year, at very substantial expense to the public purse.

944.

We must begin to work in partnership with other sectors. The Americans have introduced a similar method of tech-prep; they "dip down" into high schools to target 14-year-olds. I discussed this option with Dr Davison, who suggested a pilot programme. Under this proposed programme, we would work in partnership to ensure quality teaching, which would prevent students from leaving college with negative attitudes, particularly in areas such as maths and physics. A large part of the problem is caused by poor teaching, which includes teachers with only a marginally better knowledge of the subject than the pupils they are teaching. The pupils are being channelled into subjects other than maths and physics to the point where they may no longer want to know about these subjects, once they have merely scraped a pass at GCSE level. We will have to operate in a way which suggests that we are no longer teaching maths and physics. This will have to continue until a generation comes along that has a positive attitude to these subjects.

945.

That seems to me to be crucial, and has to be a preparation for the sort of associate degrees we are talking about. The HND may be under severe threat if we are successful with the associated degrees - as I hope we will be.

946.

Mr Murphy: There is a problem here with the two Departments looking at the issue. One of the problems seems to be a mismatch between people leaving the school sector - even good pupils in a number of subjects, maths being the obvious one - and the requirements of the higher education entry point. What people are looking for at higher education is not actually being fed to them in the current school curriculum.

947.

The second issue is what I would call the "market place" in terms of qualifications. The awarding bodies are companies and they want to sell as much of their product as possible. When it comes to selling GNVQs, you have to look to the wider school market. The way to do that is to devocationalise them so that every school can deliver. The concept in the curriculum for 14 to 19-year-olds - particularly the curriculum for 14 to 16-year-olds - of looking for a vocational bent with a vocational GCSE is not necessarily the right way ahead. A better way would be a genuine vocational qualification, at Levels 1 or 2, through half-day per week release into further education. People could then experience equipment, buildings, and the vocational curriculum, and they could make an informed choice at 16 years of age about where they want to go.

948.

Mr Gallagher: A good example of the problem of the thinking in industry is Nortel, who needed 1,500 employees. They approached a number of colleges and did joint advertisements. They received 500 enquiries, 300 applications and 150 appointees - only a 10% appointment level. The difficulty was that they were looking for A levels in maths and physics and anybody with those A levels had already gone to higher education. Somebody has to fill that void. You will not do it by presenting second-chance maths and physics because eyes will just glaze over. We have to package it well, provide the best teachers, and give it the same sort of kick that we have given to the Bridge to Employment and Rapid Advancement courses.

949.

Mr Beggs: The evidence from you and from other further education colleges is greatly encouraging. You seem to be so much on the ball with ICT, and your institute is the only Microsoft-accredited further education college. Why are more colleges not accredited by Microsoft? I would have thought that would have been a very useful thing to have. How have you gone about achieving that status and why have others not followed the same route?

950.

Your obvious success is not the perception the public has of further education colleges. How will we, collectively, change that image? Image, whether we like it or not, is an important part of solving the problem. Proper recognition must be given to the colleges and people must be encouraged to take HND or associate degree routes. What actions should we take to change that perception, so that the colleges and their work are better valued?

951.

Mr Gallagher: To answer your first question, some of our staff studied very hard and satisfied the technical requirements to acquire the Microsoft accreditation - at least two of our staff, maybe three at this stage. I do no know if other colleges have been accredited since. I have not heard of any. I have to be careful in my reply as to why other colleges have not been accredited. I hope you asked ANIC that question when they were here.

952.

Part of the lack of cohesion was that BIFHE did not join ANIC - I think everybody knows that. However, the Department's reaction to its not joining did not help. BIFHE was represented on every committee. We were the biggest subscribers to ANIC and we had a 25% chance of getting on to committees. It did not make sense, but we have not closed the door.

953.

There are a large number of small colleges. Do you remember the Stewart Report of several years ago, which suggested amalgamations? Those amalgamations were fought tenaciously in the ditches and highways and byways. I do not blame any principal for doing that, but the consequence is that we have more colleges than the Republic has institutes of technology. The institutes in the South have a larger student population and are geared towards being centres of excellence. Smaller colleges frequently give a worm's eye view of the sector. That was clear in the Strategy 2010 image. The image of our college and the type of work we were doing did not influence the perception of further education in the Strategy 2010 document. We were not asked to contribute, but we have corrected that in our submissions since. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The number of full-time equivalent students in our institute has increased by 75%. That increase occurred even though we have 6·2 sq m of space per student, which is substantially lower than the norm.

954.

David Elliott, Education and Business Manager of British Telecom, was here with another BT representative. BT will be sponsoring NORIBIC, the business and innovation centre, that is closely linked to the Institute. Our track record in supplying many quality telecommunications personnel led him to support the sponsorship. Mr Alfie Kane, who was head of BT Northern Ireland and who did a splendid job with shares in the telecommunications industry in the Republic, is also a former student of ours. Well taught. Professor Dan Bradley, who pioneered fibre optic technology in Ireland, was also a former student of ours. He became a Fellow of the Royal Irish Academy. Our track record precedes us. If business and industry are satisfied, you do not have to worry about badging. That is why we are in business, running the conversion courses.

955.

That may sound arrogant but people vote with their feet. This sector needs more rationalisation. Everybody cannot do everything. We need centres of excellence. I was principal of the smallest institute of technology in the Republic, and I quickly realised that everything you can do in Dublin cannot be done in Letterkenny. We have to be realistic, and I know your Committee will appreciate those concerns. You will be the butt of parochial lobbies, which will demand changes everywhere. I pity you and sympathise with you.

956.

Mr Murphy: I would like to mention that the future of further education is in the lifelong learning agenda. This is more about taking education to people than taking people to education. Over the past few years our community-based education programme has expanded. I ask you to note the significant difference between community-based education and community education. Community-based education is the mechanism whereby the work force is up-skilled.

957.

We offer a range of IT programmes in the Women's Centre in Derry, and we will also offer HNC courses in the centre for those who have progressed from beginners' IT through CLAIT, ECDL and Level 3. At their own pace they are ready to move on to an HNC. That is the cost-effective way of delivering a skills base. It is not about saying we are short of software engineers, so we should remove the cap on the number of places.

958.

As Mr Gallagher said earlier, anyone who wants to do software engineering or micro-electronics has no difficulty in finding a place in the Province. For us the opposite is true - we cannot find students with an adequate base in maths and physics. The only way to widen the student pool is to invite more non-traditional participants into the sector in locations comfortable to them. That is one of the challenges for the next decade.

959.

The Chairperson: I would like to mention the important subject of foundation degrees. It could be argued that employers do not sufficiently value the HND qualification at sub-degree level. Conversely, there is evidence to suggest a labour supply shortage at HND level, particularly for the IT sector. A recent concern, now that the Department is piloting the foundation degrees, is that we may simply be changing the name of the product from HND to foundation degree. Why not try to make the existing product work rather than create a new concept? Can you explain the rationale, given what you have said about the American model of associated degrees?

960.

Mr Gallagher: Part of our problem is the name. The document I gave you about higher education carries a sketch of a comparison with the Republic of Ireland. If anybody wants me to clarify that, I will come back to it - perhaps not today.

961.

What the Republic of Ireland calls "degrees" do not have higher standards than our HNDs. Two things have happened to the reputation of our HNDs. First, the University of Ulster, through its charter, retained a requirement to continue HND work, which, under the Dearing Committee recommendations and its own schemes, the university is likely to resile from shortly.

962.

Because of supply and demand and the linkages they have with some associate colleges, the two universities in Northern Ireland were competing for turf throughout Northern Ireland in places such as Omagh and Newry, where there had not been a university presence. Part of the payback for this was that a very hefty fee had to be paid for validation of HNDs. When the colleges paid their fees, the universities gave greater recognition to those HNDs than the HNDs in independent places in Belfast or elsewhere. That tended to downgrade the year-on-year exemptions. We were strong enough to see that one off. The nicest compliment came from Professor McKenna, who told me I had done more to develop Magee than anyone else, because Magee had to run to keep up with what we were doing.

963.

Seven years ago I toured every university in Scotland. I had great difficulty persuading them what an HND was. If you have difficulty telling your cousins in Scotland what an HND is, what will it be like in the United States?

964.

The Chairperson: The German system has the Fachhochschule, which does not produce a degree, yet this is perceived to work very well.

965.

Mr Murphy: But there are cultural differences.

966.

Mr Gallagher: When Mr J Spence was chairman of the T&EA - I was on the board of the agency at the time - he had a high-powered and detailed look at the German system. If you sucked out the very substantial industrial subsidy of time, effort and placements, this system would not be what it is. Perhaps we can aspire to that.

967.

However, I believe the name is important. The Republic parades its degrees to inward investors. But when we talk to these investors about HNDs, it takes a while to explain the difference. The Republic is ahead of us, even though its standards are no higher.

968.

Mr Murphy: There is also another issue, as the real drive for associate degrees or foundation degrees is as much political as it is academic, since the Prime Minister promised that 50% of the population's qualifications would be of degree status. There is an element of politics as well as an element of curriculum building.

969.

Mr J Kelly: Are you saying we should not make HND a degree course?

970.

Mr Gallagher: There are two different things. There is a danger if colleges forget that their real intent is to provide technician support for industry. However, industry is becoming more varied in its application, particularly with the sunrise industries such as ICT and telecommunications. It is difficult to set a threshold qualification that is going to satisfy them all. In terms of student mobility, it is crucial that they have a variety of outlets if they are moving off an HND perhaps entering higher education, as they are currently doing. It is important to have as much articulation as possible between the associated degree and the target university. That is the case in America and that is why I would like to link our system to America. The American system is working very well.

971.

Mr J Kelly: It goes against the common perception of what an HND should be.

972.

Mr Dallat: Mr Gallagher said he was impish when he came in. I encourage him to be impish again and tell us why research and development is so important, and what can be done to end your students being the poor relations?

973.

Mr Gallagher: First, I want to enter the epithet applied before. We have no ambition to be involved in academic research per se. There is an important place for that, and I do not denigrate it, but we are talking about a direct hands-on approach. We have been involved in SMEs for 15 years and the sort of help that an SME needs quickly is frequency in product development. An SME may need somebody to turn a lathe, or may need a business plan, or a rudimentary marketing plan to make sure that whatever widget is being contemplated has not been made before and is not being sold somewhere else. Perhaps research is the wrong name for it, but it is a way of helping business to develop products, to develop business strategies, and to develop marketing strategies.

974.

The issue of further education colleges being the poor relation is not solely an attitude of mind, and the Chairman is wise to draw attention to Germany. Strangely, this is an international phenomenon. Colleges such as ours are the poor relations internationally. There seems to have been an attitude of mind in Government, which, after all, was broadly peopled by those with university degrees, that recreation space was needed for university students and that the poor people in further education colleges did not need any recreation space at all. I do not mean to be harsh, but an artisan can get a job that pays a lot more than a university don. However, he does not have the assigned status of a don and he has to earn his nice house in, dare I say, east Ulster.

975.

There is "earned status" and "assigned status". Currently, people can have either. We need to assign status to people who have been educated at further education colleges. We gloss over a lot in the further education colleges. However, much that takes place in some colleges needs to be improved. It needs to be taken by the scruff of the neck and shaken, and I am conscious of that. I do not want to gild the lily.

976.

The Chairperson: Thank you. The session has been extremely informative and interesting. Obviously, you are passionately committed to your work, and that comes across. We will read the written submissions, which are substantial. We commend you for them and will bring them to bear as we consider some of the issues we have talked about today such as foundation degrees, the relationship between further education and higher education, and so on. You have certainly opened up a number of new avenues for us. Thank you very much for coming. We wish you well and safe journey home.

977.

Mr Gallagher: Thank you very much. It has been a very cordial atmosphere, and very easy to engage in dialogue. The Committee Clerk was quite right to suggest an across-the-table meeting. I am sorry I did not show you our coloured slides, but I hope you will pass on your lovely comments about our passion and commitment to the Minister. We are the first and only college to have won a Eurotechnet award for the design of an electronics programme that has now been copied by every member state in Europe. So we lead the way in many things.

978.

The Chairperson: Well done.

top
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 30 November 2000

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Dallat
Mr J Kelly

Witnesses:
Dr A Lennon ) Munster Simms Engineering Ltd
Mr R Saunderson )

979.

The Chairperson: I welcome Dr Lennon and his colleague, Mr Saunderson, to the Committee session. I have heard Dr Lennon speak about economic development before so I know that he has many interesting things to say.

980.

Dr Lennon: Thank you for the introduction and the invitation.

981.

My colleague, Rodney Saunderson, has helped me put together the presentation. He knows more about education and training for industry than I do because he is a graduate of the system. Therefore you may wish to direct some of your questions to him, as he has practical experience.

982.

I am not representing the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) today, I am representing small business interests. The CCEA will increasingly become involved in vocational education.

983.

You are probably punch-drunk by now so I am not going to spend too long on my presentation. I have given you a paper and I will pick out the key things and leave a bit of time for discussion.

984.

We would all agree with the research findings that say that the better educated a person is, the more relevant his education will be to the amount he earns. An important issue is how that impacts on self-esteem. We all believe that people feel better if they are employed. The jury is out as to whether that affects the GDP, whether more education means better economic performance. There is no real research. However, I am prepared to work with the idea that the more relevant and better education we have, the more likely we are to perform well economically.

985.

However, we do need reforms, particularly in the area of vocational education. We also need reforms in the so-called academic stream. Educators use the word "rigour". I would tend to focus on the word "relevance". You will see in my presentation I use the American spelling of the word rigour. However when I consulted the dictionary - and maybe this is a Freudian slip - I found that "rigor" means "a state of rigidity as a reaction to shock". There is no question that education is predominantly taken up with the question of rigour, and quite often gets the relevance wrong. Further education should be in a great position to lead the way in change. That is some of the economic background.

986.

I am grateful to PricewaterhouseCoopers for the following slides, which show some statistics that I am sure you will be familiar with. Despite our problems, we have created 89,000 new jobs over the past 10 years. We can be proud of our 29-year low in terms of unemployment. Employment has increased by 13%, which is 10 times the UK rate. Ours is the fastest growing region in the UK. Only 1% of 16-year-olds here have no qualifications. If I were to count those with relevant qualifications, that figure would be much higher. There is some good news and it is always important to remember that.

987.

As for changes in the world of Information and Computer Technology (ICT), of the 7,150 new IDB-supported jobs last year, 80% were in "knowledge industries". Ninety-two per cent of inward investment is in areas that PricewaterhouseCoopers would refer to as "high tech". Forty per cent is in software network services. We are shifting slowly and to a limited extent but we will continue to move from low-value-added manufacturing to knowledge employment. The implications are that we will need new skills for the new industries.

988.

I will tell you a little about Munster Simms. We are a high-tech company with a turnover of £10 million, selling branded products and trading internationally. Much of our sales revenue is spent on research and development, and our spend levels are typical of a pharmaceutical company. We export most of our products; 95% goes outside Ireland. We market, we design, and we make plastic pumps for niche markets. We employ 120 people, 30 of whom are in management or professional roles. We have ISO 9001, Investors in People, Business Excellence and so on. As a pump company, Munster Simms looks like a traditional manufacturer. In fact, it is not. We are a brand company and we are using technology to a high degree. Many companies in Northern Ireland are not apparently part of the technology revolution but they are certainly working in a technological environment.

989.

In the market place, there is local competition. However, our main competitors are American. We use e-business and technology. Munster Simms, as a company, and Northern Ireland, as a region, will depend more on service and knowledge than on physical products. Even though our company sells physical products, they are encapsulated within the support systems.

990.

Things are speeding up. We need 137,000 new jobs over the next 10 years just to stay still; these statistics are taken from Strategy 2010. We also need higher attainment levels and we need to engage in the lifelong learning agenda. All this will be very familiar to you. We do need forward-looking courses for literacy, including IT literacy, numeracy and communication skills. We need people who can think and solve problems. We need to be able to work flexibly, because none of us can predict the future and we need people with positive attitudes to work and lifelong learning. In specific companies we need to be able to provide job-specific knowledge. That is the sort of economic business background we need to go hand in hand with the education system.

991.

In my paper I state that there are far too many people chasing questionable academic qualifications. It is one approach to education but there are others, such as differentiating in post-primary education. The outworking of my first statement is that we do not have enough well-qualified people working at a sub-degree level with resultant disadvantages and shortages.

992.

If we compare Northern Ireland's productivity with the rest of the United Kingdom, or more relevantly with countries such as Germany, we do not show up well. This is partly to do with our approach to education. The current school curriculum reform will see some changes which must encourage a vocational focus and deliver parity with so-called academic qualifications.

993.

Further education has a role to play. I see two broad areas: young people and existing companies participating in lifelong learning. I have said this before and I will continue to say it - further education has had a scattergun strategy. It is trying to do too much and probably failing at everything.

994.

I am not au fait with the present situation, but further education has competed with schools for A level and GCSE students. Some further education colleges make a good living out of A level resits. Generally speaking, in the United Kingdom vocationally relevant options are poorly developed. Options such as business studies are heavily weighted, to the detriment of IT and technological options. I would suggest that further education, in common with every sector of the education system, tends to be dominated by what I call "produce or push". Further education is not good on feedback and modifying on the basis of feedback. It tends to deliver what is available.

995.

When I discuss further education with people, questions are raised on the capability of staff and this should not be forgotten. However, further education is well positioned in the broader debate about the education system and how we deliver parity of esteem, improve vocational education and deal with post-primary education in general. Further education could become a vocational sixth form, producing a route to work or to higher education for vocationally orientated young people. For me, that would add value to the entire system.

996.

In terms of the existing workforce, 90% of companies in Northern Ireland are very small, and we must always remember that. We have talked about the changes in the economy towards a knowledge base. There are too many colleges and too many of them are doing the same thing - they are completely undifferentiated. There are few defined centres of expertise or excellence.

997.

There is a problem in Munster Simms in that the Government strategy for in-company training and development is not available there. I think they are all over the place right now. We have got skill shortages: according to PricewaterhouseCoopers, 60% of companies in Northern Ireland currently report skill shortages. We have a number of good jobs in Munster Simms that we cannot fill, and that situation is replicated throughout Northern Ireland. I worry that there is no clear mechanism that I can relate to, whereby the problems that I have identified on skill shortages can be fed back into the education system.

998.

I recently read a labour market bulletin, which was an interesting thesis, but I do not see it as a practical tool for me to articulate my needs and have them dealt with. Similarly, colleges have little expertise in dealing with the business community, partly because they have had little focus towards business. If that relationship is to be exploited, it will have to be developed.

999.

However, in a small company economy we need a vibrant business-focused further education system. A further education college that delivered that type of support and consultancy would be culturally right for small companies with 10 to 20 people, who are not going to deal with PricewaterhouseCoopers, universities, and so on.

1000.

Supportive changes are going on in the background. We are trying to broaden the curriculum and develop options in line with the Dearing Report. The Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation Transfer System (NICATS) is under way at the University of Ulster, and it will allow people to pick and mix. This will create breadth and increase parity of esteem between vocational education and academic education. I have mentioned CCEA at least three times so that is probably enough for today on the curriculum review.

1001.

A post-primary review has been started in the Department of Education, looking at post-primary structures. Everything has to come together and we cannot make decisions on the selection process until we understand what post-primary education looks like, and further education is an important part of this.

1002.

However, one major issue that is not being dealt with is careers advice. If we are going to drive change and encourage people - and Rodney Saunderson here is a good example -to go down vocational routes to personal development as opposed to traditional academic routes, then we need good, sound careers advice. In my view, the worst people to deliver careers advice are teachers or Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) employees because they operate in a very closed environment. That is not criticism of them as individuals, but they are not best placed.

1003.

In conclusion, I am very excited about the opportunities for further education. Colleges in the Republic of Ireland are highly focused on economic development issues. I was privileged to be involved in an ANIC conference there last year. There are major contrasts and we could learn a lot from them. Some things they do not do are detrimental to what they are trying to deliver, but they are much more focused than we are.

1004.

I was not able to attend the strategic planning meeting of further education colleges, where there was an attempt to devise an economic development plan, which, I think, underplays the weaknesses. One thing about a SWOT analysis, (strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats) is that you have to be honest. Malcolm McDonald, the author of 'Marketing Plans: How to Prepare Them, How to Use Them' does not like SWOT analysis. I heard him speak two years ago and he said that SWOT can become SWAG (superficial wild-ass guesses) instead. I am not suggesting that they are wild-ass guesses but I think that the strategy document does not deal with some core weaknesses. On the strategic objectives page there are eleven bullet points. This Department and other Government departments are mentioned eight times but customer needs and quality are not mentioned once.

1005.

The Chairperson: Thank you for that hard hitting and serious analysis of the current situation.

1006.

Mr Beggs: I appreciate the time you have given us as you come from the coalface as opposed to the world of academia and you look at the situation from an employer's point of view. It is important that this view finds its way into the system to meet future needs. You said that 60% of companies have skill shortages and that they lack the mechanism to feed those shortages into the system to create a focus so that school students will be aware that, with training, there are opportunities. You criticise careers guidance, in particular, saying that there is no proper system. This theme has been aired by a number of people. Can you tell us what you think the ideal working model might be? Have you looked at other examples of better careers guidance services that we should take a closer look at and possibly recommend?

1007.

Dr Lennon: In Wales, careers guidance was privatised but I think it is all bits and pieces. There are people in schools giving bits of careers guidance about education and the status quo. There are people in the T&EA giving careers guidance and there are many little organisations around Northern Ireland trying their best to influence things. The whole area of skills shortages and careers guidance should be brought together and should have, at one level, a strategic focus in terms of long-term planning and, at another level, a major policy focus that also deals with lower level one-to-one advice situations. It is very disparate and very split up, and I do not think you can use it as a strategic lever for change unless you have a handle on it. I would not know who to talk to in Northern Ireland about the fact that we have advertised three times in the 'Belfast Telegraph' for tool setters - they just do not exist. We went to the college in Lisburn and they cannot get anybody to enrol on the programme. I do not know what to do with that information.

1008.

Mr Carrick: I note that you require people who can think and solve problems, and that flexibility in lifelong learning and the school curriculum can encourage a vocational focus. I can identify with all that, but you made a comment about there being too many undifferentiated colleges. How would you relate that to the issue of access for local people? There are 17 colleges at the moment. We are talking about 16 to 21-year-olds, and we also need to consider the geographical problems for those living west of the Bann

1009.

Is access not an important issue, and does that not need to be factored into the thinking and the needs of SMEs? After all, SMEs are spread across the Province, and there needs to be local support and provision.

1010.

Dr Lennon: That is a good question. I understand the point and to an extent you are right in saying that the two items work in opposite directions. However, in terms of specialisation, our company would look anywhere. I will give you the example of injection moulding. We would look towards Sligo for that. At the moment Sligo is a centre of excellence, containing a cluster of companies of that type. As far as certain aspects of real expertise are concerned, our company would look anywhere, and I am sure that other small companies in the island of Ireland are not different from us in that respect.

1011.

I think we are talking about different things. I think you are talking about commonality of provision for a local area, whether it is sixth-formers or certain types of business support. Allied with that, I think you are talking about differentiated centres of excellence around the area. The Province is very small. An hour would take you across Northern Ireland and, in global terms, the size is trivial. I do not know what the right number of colleges is. However, we cannot afford to have them compete with each other. We need people who are expert in individual areas, delivering that expertise, and supporting the local constituents whoever they might be. I do not think that they are mutually exclusive.

1012.

Mr Carrick: I appreciate that clarification because earlier I thought you were referring to a centre of excellence.

1013.

Mr Dallat: The question of research and further education colleges came up in an earlier discussion and was probably not concluded. Do you believe that organisations other than universities should be involved with research activities? How can technology transfer between the institutes of further education and business be enhanced?

1014.

Dr Lennon: To be fair, I have not given a lot of thought to that question. Research can be with a big "R" or a small "r". Our company carries out research and development and for us it is with a small "r" and a large "D". If both types of institution were engaged in research, I would expect a university to be involved in the purer end of the research spectrum. I would expect a further education college, if it were turning out - and I wish it were - good production engineers, to be engaged in research in production-engineering techniques, ideas and developments. I would expect them to understand Japanese processes and what makes Japan successful. That is an applied research related to its function. However, I would like to think that if people are running training and development and support programmes that, alongside those, they are researching best practice in developing them. I have not thought deeply about this but that is my immediate response.

1015.

Mr J Kelly: In your paper you mention that if further education colleges are to make progress they will have to provide for the training needs of business. Do you think that there is a corollary - an obligation on business to provide funding for education?

1016.

Dr Lennon: Yes. I am happy to work within whatever rules pertain. I used to tell people in the T&EA that the cause of grant dependency is grants. People will play the system no matter what the system might be. I spent two and a half years with the T&EA. Left to their own devices most companies will not engage in the necessary level of training and development without a carrot or a stick, or both. There has to be some sort of sanction or encouragement.

1017.

There is a big debate in the current Government on whether it is right for Government funds to be used to support in-company development. That is reflected in the confusion that I see now. Companies have to pay, but, unless a number of them are given tax breaks or grant support, encouragement and sanctions will not work. That is the track record.

1018.

Mr J Kelly: Are you saying that there should be a structured approach?

1019.

Dr Lennon: There has to be a strategic approach. I have criticised the company development programme for a number of years because it has been used and abused. Much of the money has been wasted and not strategically levered. Not enough of it has been used in management development. Too much of it has been used to support wage bills. If the Government are going to spend money on levering change, they have every right to demand that that money be used strategically, as opposed to just making the profit and loss account look better.

1020.

The Chairperson: You mentioned - I believe rightly - that the sub-degree level is critical. In the previous two sessions this afternoon, we got somewhat differing messages about what to do. One view was that we should try to develop the HND, which is a reputable qualification. There is some evidence that not enough use is being made of it, and that those who take an HND are using it immediately as a stepping stone to go on to a degree. This is good for them personally, but perhaps leads to labour shortages, especially in IT. We also heard the opposing view that the future lies with the two-year foundation degree, which is now being piloted. At this stage, do you have any views on the relative merits of these two approaches?

1021.

Dr Lennon: Much of what we are doing in education is being driven by the national Government's objective to get as many people as possible into higher education. That produces qualification inflation. A much more appropriate route to go down would be that of Germany, where they have a differentiated system. They have very clear vocational routes and a vocational qualification is necessary to do certain jobs. That is all that is necessary, and it does not need to be inflated further.

1022.

The question is not whether it is an HND or some other sort of degree. My great worry is that we are all going to end up at university doing wonderful courses like degrees in golf course management. Where are people going to learn the technology that will drive change? It has got to be done somewhere.

1023.

The Chairperson: As a supplementary, that raises the issue of what lies at the heart of the CCEA's work. Admittedly, this goes somewhat outside our Committee's remit - it is more the Education Committee's remit - but it has a knock-on effect on our Committee. Is a common curriculum appropriate or, to use your words, should we aim more towards a German or diversified system? In other words, students of a certain sort will do a range of "academic" subjects. Others will perhaps concentrate more on technical, vocational subjects. We will not try to press everyone into the same mould.

1024.

Dr Lennon: I respond with the caveat that I am speaking for myself today. We are formulating a small project team right now to take this forward in the CCEA, and I do not want to pre-empt what the outcome will be. However, there is no doubt, from engaging in the curriculum review and getting feedback from teachers and others, that the secondary sector wants to see changes to the common curriculum and wants to see differentiation. That is no great secret, and I personally support it. Ramming everybody from "high-fliers" through to "the difficult tail" through the same common curriculum does not work.

1025.

The Department of Education has to some extent already recognised that, having begun to allow certain schools a limited opt-out from the National Curriculum. We are running a case study project on the Shankill Road. Although we have not yet completed the Common Curriculum consultation process with the CCEA, all of the evidence seems to say that the Common Curriculum, if there is to be one, should be smaller, with a greater degree of flexibility and much more room for such things as GNVQs in vocational education. I am personally very strongly in favour of that.

1026.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. I suppose we are heading towards the end of the allotted time. That was extremely interesting. You were provocative, but the issues are sufficiently significant to demand that. We have had three sessions this afternoon, so it was important that you pitched your evidence at such a level. You certainly kept our attention.

1027.

Mr Dallat: Perhaps I might ask a question before we close. You were fairly clear that further education colleges need to do something about themselves. Can you give us some idea of what they should do?

1028.

Dr Lennon: I have met the relevant people many times. I do not know why I got involved, but I did. I was with them at their conference in Ennis last year. They invited me along to speak and give them an outsider's view. I appreciate the opportunity to provide a customer's view.

1029.

I was unable to get to their meeting a week or two ago, but, from reading this document, I would say that they wish to change. The real risk is that they underestimate some of the strategic issues with which they must deal. They do not have the expertise in dealing with business. There are questions about the quality of staff and some difficult and important issues which must somehow find their way onto the strategic change agenda. They are presently working in many areas, including adult literacy issues and recreation, but one cannot do everything well, and they will have to make some hard choices. They will have to face up to very thorough SWOT analyses.

1030.

Having read the document, it seems to me they are saying that if only everyone understood further education better and if it were better funded, everything would be all right. It will not be that simple, for they have a great deal of work to do with the business community on their agenda. There is much goodwill and many people are willing to help. In such a process of change, it is never easy to say that there are major problems, for that implies criticism of the past, but we must attain that level of discussion. I do not know if I am ringing any bells.

1031.

Mr Dallat: You are.

1032.

Dr Lennon: I have been through a similar exercise in our company. It is easy to say that one has plenty of strengths and almost no weaknesses, great opportunities and no threats. This happens typically unless one is very self-critical indeed, perhaps inviting outsiders to act as a mirror.

1033.

Mr Dallat: So there are more SWAGs than SWOTs.

1034.

Dr Lennon: There usually are more. You will remember that one.

1035.

Mr Dallat: Very definitely.

1036.

The Chairperson: I hope you will not be using that line in the Chamber next Monday, Mr Dallat. Thank you very much, Dr Lennon. That was extremely useful, and we will also look at your written paper. There is a fair chance that we shall come back to you at some point in the inquiry. We might also be looking at some issues regarding the CCEA. Thank you for giving us your perspective as an employer and as a person who is running a very innovative, high-performing company. Your perspective on labour supply has been very valuable. We thank Rodney Saunderson as well.

1037.

Dr Lennon: Thank you for having us. We will leave a copy of the overheads in case anyone wants them.

top
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 7 December 2000

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly

Witnesses:
Prof P Murphy )
Mr K Chambers ) Belfast Institute of Further and
Mr D West ) Higher Education

1038.

The Chairperson: It is my pleasure to welcome Prof Patrick Murphy, Director of the Belfast Institute of Higher and Further Education, Kevin Chambers, Assistant Director for Estates, and David West. Do you wish to give an opening presentation?

1039.

Prof Murphy: Not so much a presentation, but a brief opening statement. Thank you for your invitation; we are very pleased to be here.

1040.

Further education - its funding, investment and accommodation levels over the years - has perhaps been somewhat underestimated as far as its contribution to the Northern Ireland economy is concerned.

1041.

Is further and higher education's contribution to industry its main purpose, its sole purpose or part of its purpose? What are we about? What are we meant to be about? Should changes to the system emerge from the 11-plus review, and if the present grammar school, secondary school and further education system is affected, then perhaps we should look at the future of further and higher education in the light of what is happening in the present school system.

1042.

The Chairperson: Do you propose to cover all of that? That is very ambitious.

1043.

Prof Murphy: I was hoping that the Committee might cover all of that, but there are several points there and I do recognise that there may not be enough time.

1044.

The Chairperson: Go ahead.

1045.

Prof Murphy: That is my opening statement. I will take questions to cover the ground.

1046.

The Chairperson: We can go straight to the questions then.

1047.

Prof Murphy: Yes, if you are happy with that.

1048.

Mr J Kelly: Good afternoon. You have stated that you are very uneasy about asking students to pay their way through education. Do you have any further views on student finance, including how we can make it affordable to the Government?

1049.

Prof Murphy: I am a product of the welfare state. I am here because of the 11-plus and the welfare state. There is a culture for people of my age to say "Oops, sorry, there is no money left now, and the people coming behind us cannot get the same benefit as we got". I would, therefore, be a believer in the welfare state. Everybody who is studying, at whatever level, should be entitled to some kind of financial support.

1050.

Having said that, I am not Sean Farren, and I am not a Minister in the Assembly with the problem of making a very limited budget go as far as possible. There are not sufficient funds to support everybody who wants to study everything at all levels. If I am wrong, and there is enough money for everybody, then that answers the question. If, however, it has to be selectively applied, then the Minister and yourselves have to decide to whom this money will be selectively applied, and on what basis. I am not quite sure what way the Minister is going in this particular argument, but he did hint in a newspaper article yesterday - which I understand caused some discontent among some people - that he was going to target social need. I am not yet in a position to judge how social need will be targeted and on what basis. However, the principle is a worthy starting point.

1051.

Ideally, I would like every student to be funded to the level that he or she wants, in whatever he or she wants to do, but education is changing very much. People of my age traditionally went to university from the age of 18 until they were 21 or 22. That has changed, as adults return to education, and people come in from the community. People are involved in education at all levels, and there is lifelong learning. Do we just fund the students who are at university, and do we let the rest go? Do we have a two-tier system? We cannot have that.

1052.

The Minister is proposing that funding be based on targeting social need. In principle that is good and I would support it, but I do not know the details yet. The Minister has a difficulty because he cannot raise taxes - he has not the power - so he cannot raise more money. To bring additional money into education, it has to come from an increased block grant from Westminster or else be taken off the Health Service, roads, or whatever. It would be easy for me to suggest giving the money to the students and taking it off someone else, but it is not my decision.

1053.

The Minister has looked at the problem very seriously, and I understand the concerns in your Committee also. It is a very difficult one, and in principle I am for free education. In practice, I must ask whether there is enough money to pay for it.

1054.

Mr J Kelly: To follow that up, does business have a role to play in the financing of further and higher education, or third-level education in general?

1055.

Prof Murphy: This is something that I would urge the Committee to look at in greater detail. As Mr Kelly will be aware, the private finance initiative (PFI), or capital funding is now well developed, in further and higher education. We are involved with one scheme at Millfield and will be involved with another at Springvale.

1056.

The role of business is crucial, but the danger is that a business will support only those students who are going to go into that particular business. If you want to study philosophy you will not stand the same chance of getting a grant as you would if you wanted to study electronics. Perhaps that is a good thing, and perhaps we should only support people who study electronics, and not those who study philosophy, or languages such as French and Irish. That is another issue.

1057.

The role of business is crucial. The universities and ourselves are producing trained labour to whatever quality and standard, and the businesses are then using those people to make profit. I agree with Mr Kelly - business should be investing at an early stage.

1058.

However, the detail of that could be difficult. Many businesses are now multinational, so if an American firm has a branch in Northern Ireland, will it support students in America or students in Northern Ireland. How would that affect their shareholders? It is an excellent idea in principle, and it is worthy of further examination.

1059.

Mr Beggs: Why is the Belfast Institute not a member of the Association of Northern Ireland Colleges (ANIC)? Would it not benefit the further education sector if there were a collective approach? Is further education not weakened by your absence from ANIC, and why should your college be consulted separately?

1060.

Prof Murphy: Under incorporation we have the right to administer our own affairs and, therefore, we have the right to be consulted separately. There is a reason why we are not in ANIC. For the negotiations on salaries, wages and conditions for the sector we work with it on a regional-negotiation basis. The key issues for staff are covered collectively across Northern Ireland. However, we represent 25% of the sector. There are six other colleges that, together, represent less than 25%. We have our own personnel staff and finance staff, but the smaller colleges come together to buy that as a collective service.

1061.

We have a choice. Do we pay for it twice - our personnel people and the collective personnel system - or do we do our own thing? We inherited a system from the Belfast Education and Library Board whereby we have our own personnel and finance staff, and we have retained that system. Having said that, we work closely with the other colleges on curriculum developments and on wages and salaries.

1062.

Mr Beggs: If it is purely a matter of the cost of personnel services that you do not need because you have your own, could you not negotiate a suitable discount?

1063.

Prof Murphy: Take for example Information and Communication Technology (ICT). We have devised our own ICT strategy. The other colleges, on a different scale, require a different system, so we have developed -

1064.

Mr Beggs: The trouble is that we are seeing two groups from further education. It would be much more efficient for further education to be represented by one group, rather than for us to have to bring in two groups. I would have thought that it would be the same in dealing with the Department.

1065.

Prof Murphy: It may be more efficient for the Committee. I am sorry if I am causing the Committee any difficulty - that is certainly far from being my intention. However, to suggest that the further and higher education system in Northern Ireland can be viewed as a homogeneous unit perhaps fails to understand the true remit of the entire sector.

1066.

Mr Chambers: On a practical basis we work very closely with many of our colleagues right across the sector in an informal way, and we work very effectively in that respect. You have to recognise that there are clear differences in terms of size, complexity, and geographical location as far as the Belfast Institute and the other colleges are concerned. For us to be part of ANIC would limit and inhibit us in many respects.

1067.

Mr Beggs: Can you explain that?

1068.

Mr Chambers: We have a degree of flexibility in how we develop a service right across the community to industry and to all the interested parties. In many respects other colleges do not have that, because of their location, and their lack of breadth of expertise. I think that working through ANIC would inhibit the service that we provide.

1069.

Prof Murphy: The second-largest college in Northern Ireland - the North West Institute of Further and Higher Education - has recently left ANIC for the same reasons that we did not join.

1070.

Mr Byrne: What is the future role of further education colleges in relation to their vocational training provision and their higher education provision? That is a fundamental issue. Obviously, some colleges, such as your own, have developed a lot of higher education provision. There is a question about the role, remit and indeed the philosophy, of such a college. I have to say that I regard it as a bit arrogant to think that because your college is big and because it is located in Belfast that it should be -

1071.

Mr Chambers: That is only one of the factors.

1072.

Mr Byrne: With respect, if we are going to sort out further education in the future and stop it being the Cinderella of the service, I would have thought that a collective approach, based on good solid arguments from the 17 colleges, would lend strength to that. This Committee represents all of Northern Ireland. I do not think any further education college - no matter how big it is - should have an advantage over any other college. If you believe in the age of equality, then a student who lives in Dromore, County Tyrone should be equal to one who lives in Dromore, County Down.

1073.

I urge BIFHE to join ANIC and contribute to the collective thinking on behalf of the further education sector. I would like to hear a stronger reason why it is not a member. I do not think it is a good enough argument to say that the North West Institute of Further and Higher Education is pulling out. I do not understand the logic of that.

1074.

Can BIFHE provide a service to those parts of the city where it does not have an actual building, particularly in relation to those pupils who have not attained anything by the age of 16? How strong a presence does BIFHE have in those areas?

1075.

Prof Murphy: We operate from six main campuses, five other buildings and 200 outreach centres. It depends on what you mean by having a presence. I do not intend any disrespect to people in Belfast, but there is a desire in Belfast for a school, a building or a college in every street or area. That is obviously impossible. We have a limited budget. We have to decide how many buildings we can afford to operate. The more buildings you have, the greater the inefficiency and costs. The fewer buildings you have, the greater the efficiency. We have a balance.

1076.

We inherited a system with six major campuses. We are now reducing that. We are closing a building in south Belfast, on the Ormeau Embankment, and relocating the activities at Millfield. You might ask to what extent that disadvantages people in Belfast. However, our buildings are not solely for the immediate community. We run further and higher education courses in all of them. In higher education we are trying to serve all of Northern Ireland. If you arrive on a wet Monday morning at Great Victoria Street, how do you get to the Ormeau Road? The other side of the coin is what about Mrs Smith who lives up the road? How does she access the class there?

1077.

We have tried to increase the number on a pyramidal basis. The 200 outreach centres are the bottom of the pyramid, and it declines as we reach the top with a higher level of education. We have tried to have all our buildings in the centre, within reach of the red-bus routes, so that anyone from any part of the city can access us. Anybody from anywhere in Northern Ireland coming into Great Victoria Street is also within a short walking distance of those buildings. That is our strategy and that is what generally works.

1078.

However, physical access is not the only point. We have tried to ensure that there is academic access. For example, we use our community education centres to progress people through the system. The Minister will be coming in a week or two to open a new call centre training facility in the city centre. We use our outreach centres all over Belfast to give people interview and social interaction skills. They then progress into the city centre to train for working in a call centre, and then they are in the system.

1079.

Mr Byrne asked if I can be sure that every student has equal access all over the city. I obviously cannot. Our strategy is to maximise the efficiency of our service and to provide maximum access for as many people as possible. Is there a student from some part of Belfast who cannot get to us? Probably.

1080.

Mr Byrne: I have a follow-up point. The issue is important and we cannot just ignore it. The primary objective for further and higher education is to get to those people who have either not had the right education up to the age of 16 or who have gone into employment and then want to be retrained. Such people want to use the further and higher education route as a way of empowering themselves. I want to be assured that the interests of the academically less well off are being well catered for by your college.

1081.

Prof Murphy: I think they are. The difficulty is that it is a bit like church - it is not those who are in the system that you have to worry about, it is those who have not quite got there. In relation to that challenge, I would use the example of Springvale. Springvale was originally proposed as a university. I opposed that. That was a very unpopular move at the time. I was making the point that universities are not simply buildings. Universities do not change areas unless there is an access mechanism. It was for that reason that the University of Ulster and ourselves finally agreed on a different proposal to that originally envisaged, allowing people maximum opportunity to access the system.

1082.

Our community education headquarters will be based at Springvale. It will be linked electronically to 200 centres across the city for teaching and administrative purposes. There will be no part of Belfast which cannot be accessed through that system. You were making the point about having a building in a certain centre -

1083.

Mr Byrne: I did not say that. I was asking how, in those areas where you do not have a building, you can make a direct, relevant and meaningful connection with people who feel disaffected.

1084.

Prof Murphy: The disaffected people, initially, often do not want to come to an educational building. They will go to a community centre, a neighbourhood centre or a church hall. We find that if we have a large school-type building, it very often puts people off. We bring them through the local community, where they feel comfortable, before progressing them further.

1085.

Mr Dallat: I am endeavouring to compress about four questions into one without you noticing it.

1086.

The Chairperson: Could you make them all short?

1087.

Mr Dallat: The mind boggles at the complexity of your organisation, and I just wonder how you can manage to sustain high morale and a low turnover of staff - all things that are important to students receiving a good education.

1088.

Being a rural dweller I am concerned about the power of numbers found in the North West Institute of Further and Higher Education and in your institute at the other end of the North. You seem to have developed your own model, and I wonder where the colleges in between fit in. New technology is just as important in Kilrea as it is in Belfast or Derry.

1089.

I would also appreciate your views on public-private partnerships (PPPs), as the work you are involved in needs money - a lot more money than the Minister might have.

1090.

Prof Murphy: I will take the issue of the rural dweller first. As a fellow rural dweller I share your concerns - as you can hear I have not cultivated the Belfast accent as yet. On the issue of the management of size we represent 25% of the sector. That is not a conscious decision. The Belfast Education and Library Board brought together the three largest colleges in Northern Ireland, and that is the end of the matter. It is simply a reflection of the number of people in Belfast. Belfast would have more than 25% of the population at present and that is a reflection of that figure.

1091.

On the point about the north-west, Mr Dallat is arguing for some sort of strategy to ensure that everyone is Northern Ireland has equality of access to learning from wherever they live.

1092.

Mr Dallat: Precisely.

1093.

Prof Murphy: Community education in Belfast is easy. One can take a street with 150 houses and organise community education there. I do not have a clue how that is done in west Fermanagh. For us to say that we are great, that we have 20,000 people in community education, and that there is a desire and hunger for knowledge and learning in Belfast, is relatively easy for us. In rural areas it is difficult.

1094.

As Mr Dallat has already hinted, the way forward is through the electronic revolution whereby people can access learning at home. We are currently involved in a proposal for a submission to Europe for funding in relation to Springvale. It involves bringing an electronic revolution to north and west Belfast in the same way that the Government in the South brought it to the village of Ennis. Everyone in that area has a laptop or computer which allows them to access a huge information base and progresses them through learning. Why can that not be a model for all of Northern Ireland?

1095.

Mr Beggs' point about a strategy for colleges in Northern Ireland is pertinent. Perhaps he is hinting that if colleges are distant from one another then the system is somehow unco-ordinated. I would argue that the co-ordination is there, but that the Department needs a greater strategic drive to allow the colleges to be involved in a more coherent fashion.

1096.

You will remember that in Mrs Thatcher's era - which took a long time to die in Northern Ireland - competition between colleges was promoted. Funding is still allocated on a competitive basis. We need a choice here - let us compete or let us collaborate. If we compete or collaborate we will do well. We need a steer as to the way to go. Do not ask us to compete and then say "Why are you not collaborating?" You cannot have it both ways.

1097.

Mr Dallat raised the issue of the management of size. Size is not important. We have eight departments the size of large secondary or grammar schools, with 120 staff including part-timers, and a budget of over £3 million. You simply break them up into units. There is a great saving in terms of efficiency, because the one system does the lot in relation to computers, administration, cleaning and the management of information systems.

1098.

The salaries of principals and senior management in other small colleges cost more. I am not arguing that big is better. I am making the point that we can manage it - it can be done. There is a strong case for saying that the further education system in Northern Ireland could be managed centrally - by the Department, perhaps. That would give clear direction to the strategy mentioned by Mr Beggs and Mr Byrne.

1099.

As regards PFI and PPP, we have a PFI partnership in relation to the College of Technology at Millfield at the moment. I am a product of the welfare state and I am against PFI. However, the Minister does not have £20 million to give us, so when he offers us PFI, we go for PFI.

1100.

In a democratic society such as this, when Government says we should follow the PFI model then the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education will give you the best PFI model that you have ever seen. If it is then changed to the XYZ model, we will give you the best XYZ model. However, that decision is one for the Assembly.

1101.

Some members of the Committee would have reservations about PFI, and I understand that. The Committee is welcome to come to our institute at some time after Christmas and see how PFI is actually working. You can listen to me, see the buildings and speak to the private sector provider. The Committee might then have a better view of PFI. The private sector has a major role to play in funding further and higher education.

1102.

At Springvale, the next phase will be the main campus in the university - the education village area. Work has already started on the community education outreach building, which will cost £40 million and is being funded through PFI. If you do not like PFI then you should shout out soon and give us a cheque for £40 million - I suspect that you will advocate going down the PFI road.

1103.

Mr Beggs: You raised the issue of community education going to Springvale. I am aware of concerns about the temporary location of a training course in community development being at Whiterock, which is not perceived to be a neutral area. There is widespread under-provision of trained community development workers, particularly in the Unionist community. Why have you moved the course to an area that is not perceived to be neutral? You are actually excluding and preventing access.

1104.

Prof Murphy: That is not our intention.

1105.

Mr Beggs: It may not be your intention but that is the result.

1106.

Prof Murphy: I will talk to Mr Beggs in detail about any point he wishes to make. We have a difficulty - and this goes back to the point raised by Mr Byrne - about whether we should have a presence in every part of the city. Obviously we try to be in as many parts as possible. Mr Beggs is quite right in saying that the Whiterock area is perceived to have particular politico-religious allegiances, and I accept that. However, when we look at Tower Street, off the Newtownards Road, it is seen as being the other way round. We could simply say that in those circumstances we provide ghetto-type courses solely for the people in those areas. What we try to do is to spread higher education across the city. However, the question is that - and Mr Beggs is quite right - when you put a higher education course in one location and not in another, are you disadvantaging one side of the community or the other. We always have difficulties with that, and we look at each course concerned and make changes if necessary.

1107.

Mr Beggs: Would it not be more appropriate to locate that particular course in a neutral location?

1108.

Prof Murphy: I am not familiar with the details of that course, but I am happy to relocate any course if the students approach us. It is not our job to make life difficult for people - it is not in our interest. We get our money through the numbers of students we have. If we lose a student, we lose money. There is no mileage for us in losing students.

1109.

Mr Chambers: We have relocated courses for that reason, and I can give examples of where we have done that to suit students.

1110.

Mr Beggs: I will watch developments as far as this particular course is concerned.

1111.

Mr West: The course is currently under review. It was placed at Whiterock by agreement with the university in the first place. We are held to that agreement until the review is complete.

1112.

Mr J Kelly: There are arguments about location and relocation in industry as well as in education. It is a very broad issue. In relation to PFI you said that, on one hand, private investment in education was difficult to obtain, while, on the other hand, if the Government will not give you £40 million, PFI will. I am opposed to PFI in principle. I am not approaching the subject blindly - I see difficulties.

1113.

It is too simplistic to say that if the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment cannot give you £40 million then you will turn to private investment. You say that it is difficult to get businesses to invest in education, because they will only take out of it what they want, yet you are also saying that it is OK for private investment in buildings, land et cetera.

1114.

Prof Murphy: I am not saying that it is OK. I am saying that it is OK if you say it is OK - you make the decisions and I do not. I take Mr Kelly's point. The difference is that we are training people, for instance, for a firm "X", which wants 50 computer graduates by next Tuesday - or whatever it happens to be - and that is what is in it for them.

1115.

In PFI the private provider gets the profit. That is the whole point. That is what the private sector is all about. As far as the private sector is concerned, it is making a profit from the sale of buildings, or from building the buildings. The profit from the sale of buildings is restricted by Treasury guidelines, and, if it goes beyond a certain level, we get a part of it as well. There are rules on that. But the private sector also wants to make profits from the provision of cleaning services, catering services, boarders and that type of thing.

1116.

Mr J Kelly: Car parking.

1117.

Prof Murphy: Yes, car parking as well. At Millfield we have cut all that back to a minimum. For example, we run catering courses and we use our own catering for those purposes.

1118.

I am not putting it forward, but there is a counter-argument when it comes to the private sector. What do I know about catering, porterage, security or cleaning? My job is to provide education; the core business is teaching. Let me and my staff specialise in that and buy in services from other specialists who are good at providing cleaning, catering and so on. The other argument is, of course, that this is a public sector provision and the public sector should provide it. These are the two arguments.

1119.

Those issues, with all due respect, are for the Assembly to resolve. When that debate is settled and you have got an answer, I, as director of the Institute, will implement that. I will implement it better than anyone else, but I need to know where I am going. Are you giving me direction on this?

1120.

The Chairperson: Have you found that there are cost savings in your concentrating on the core service of teaching and putting the peripheral service activities out to the private sector?

1121.

Prof Murphy: We have given as little as possible to the private sector. That is our policy. The building is only under construction at the moment, so it is too early to say. Having said that, if I were in the private sector I would see wonderful business opportunities in the provision of management information systems, computer systems and electronic systems. There is money there. The private sector has not yet got its act together either. It should be offering those systems. They are far more lucrative than cleaning and that type of thing.

1122.

The Chairperson: That is true. We are very grateful for your submission in relation to our inquiry on the training system. One of the key issues in the inquiry is the sub-degree level of qualification. There is some evidence - for example, in the recent Economic Research Centre Report, and from other sources - to indicate that the critical gap in labour-supply provision is at that level. How should we respond to that? I am particularly interested in your institute's view on this. Should we work with the existing HND qualification, develop it, and perhaps deal with some of the difficulties surrounding it? Alternatively, should we go for the new proposal of the two-year foundation degree.

1123.

Prof Murphy: When producing trained people for industry, are we doing it solely for Northern Ireland or for all of Ireland, the UK, Europe and the American market as well? If you say that we are producing for the Northern Ireland market, then you must tell us to produce only for the Northern Ireland market. You must decide what is to be done.

1124.

At the same time, we turn away 3,000 higher education applicants every year. They leave Northern Ireland. They cannot get onto an HND course in our institute, but they can qualify for a degree in one of the British universities. On your sub-degree point, there is a gap in the further education provision in Northern Ireland.

1125.

We are good at community education, and we have a very broad base. We are not bad at further education. Then we narrow in at the top with higher education. The money we make on higher education - and it is lucrative, even though we are only funded at a third of the rate that the universities are for the same course - is reinvested into community education.

1126.

The funding for community education comes from the money made in Whiterock, Tower Street or the 200 other centres. I would like to ask if that is what we are meant to be doing? Should that money fund further education at community education level? That can be contrasted with the situation in the South of Ireland, which has institutes of technology - formerly regional Technical Colleges - for which we have no equivalent. We had a polytechnic that we lost when it became a university. There is an argument for expanding the top of our pyramid to include institutes of technology, polytechnics or something similar - it does not matter what they are called. Northern Ireland needs at least one, and possibly two or three. I have bad news for Mr Dallat, because they would probably be somewhere in Belfast, the north west or somewhere else. He might want to get in quickly and get one for his constituency. Seriously, that type of provision is required.

1127.

The Chairperson: I knew where this was heading.

1128.

Mr Beggs: That is a separate question.

1129.

Prof Murphy: In relation to your question on HNDs, they are very often seen as a stepping stone rather than a final product. The idea is to create what are called 'foundation degrees', which are meant to be two-year degrees. The CBI and the entire spectrum of employers do not regard these as real degrees. A one year top-up is needed when the course is complete. I am not sure if that would solve anything. It must be remembered that the universities have a large say in that. They will determine what we can and cannot run - we would not have any say. The good thing - I do not know whether Mr Kelly would think it good or bad - is that the private sector and industry will have a say in the content and running of the sub-degrees. Private industry was previously involved when Mrs Thatcher brought it in on NVQs and competence levels. The word in the sector is that NVQs are not particularly good and that the standards are not liked. When I say to the private sector "They are your standards, not mine", it says, "Nobody asked me about the standards." That is how it is.

1130.

The sub-degree level needs examination with regard to its purpose. The question of who will provide it also needs to be raised. I would argue strongly for some form of review of further education. I would also argue for a serious examination of the possibility of introducing the equivalent of institutes of technology in Northern Ireland.

1131.

Mr Beggs: I am not knowledgeable about the continuing education sector, but over the last year I have become more familiar with it. Are you concerned about the number of organisations involved in the continuing education sector? We have the Training for Women Network, the Educational Guidance Service for Adults, and probably two or three others. The Department of Agriculture has a £2 million rural college that needed additional funding of £800,000. This extra funding has come to the attention of the Public Accounts Committee. Are you concerned about the number of training organisations outside the further education sector?

1132.

Prof Murphy: Mr Beggs and I have found common ground, Mr Chairman.

1133.

The Chairperson: That is good.

1134.

Prof Murphy: I am concerned. The difficulty is - and I am not criticising community groups - that community groups receiving money often want to establish a particular facility with it. There is an element of training involved after the funding has been received. It is difficult both politically and practically to argue against that. One example is Jobskills, administered by the Training and Employment Agency and the Department for Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment. To develop Mr Kelly's point, a private-sector proprietor can take an office somewhere in the centre of a town, install a dozen computers for word-processing or whatever, bring in 12 trainees and make a bit of money. However, in the public sector I am required to provide everything, from civil and mechanical engineering right through to administration. The lucrative returns go to the private sector. That is part of Government policy. Mr Beggs made a valid point in saying that there are too many providers. The answer to his question is an emphatic "Yes". The downside comes in deciding what we do about it. We need to convince those who say that it cannot be done, and we need to ascertain the role of the private sector in training. One example is Shorts. Mr Chambers is involved with Shorts. It provides its own training, but BIFHE also supplies part of the training.

1135.

Mr Chambers: BIFHE's contribution is substantial.

1136.

Prof Murphy: We do a substantial amount of it.

1137.

Mr Chambers: BIFHE and Shorts have an effective further education partnership. Although it is a private sector provider, BIFHE puts a lot of its own development funding into training. I am sure that you know about the Interpoint Centre in Belfast and how it is used. BIFHE has worked closely with Shorts over a number of years to develop an effective partnership. These partnerships look not only at the training strategy and at how it should be developed to bring about effective, competent and knowledge-based training, but they also look at how the company can profit. That is one of our current gaps. We need to look at how we can further develop these partnerships.

1138.

Industry has got off very lightly in developing the education and training system. To date there have been only one or two significant examples of partnerships - the venture with Short Brothers plc being one of them. On Mr Beggs' question, I agree with my director about the proliferation of training providers. Some exist solely to administer and manage training. They provide none themselves, but they make a handsome profit out of it. That is a middleman profit which takes away from the system. That must be addressed urgently.

1139.

Prof Murphy: The private sector can cherry-pick, but we must cover all areas. I will keep Mr Dallat happy by saying that that includes rural areas.

1140.

Mr Dallat: Thank you.

1141.

Mr J Kelly: Colleagues of yours from the north-west argued last week that the HND should be developed to become a degree.

1142.

Prof Murphy: I would argue that point. The HND is a fine qualification which has a particularly good track record. We have a good standard of technical education in Northern Ireland, and people who want to go on to do a degree have the right to do so. There is a danger that we simply repackage everything to make it a bit more attractive. An HND repackaged as a degree will just be more or less the same course with different packaging and a ribbon.

1143.

Mr Chambers: Virtually 100% of those who do an HND, and who do not go on to do a degree, find employment. Employers know that the HND qualification provides worthwhile skills and knowledge.

1144.

Mr Byrne: There has been an inequity in further education funding. A student over the age of 16 at a further education college gets much less than a grammar school student of the same age. How can that be tackled?

1145.

Prof Murphy: The further education system is a reflection of social attitudes in Northern Ireland. The theory is that those who pass the 11-plus are good while those who do not are not so good. According to that theory, people who have failed the 11-plus are meant to work with their hands. They are therefore meant to be not quite as good as those who work with their heads, and so they do not deserve the same level of funding. That, unfortunately, is the perception. We see that in the buildings and in the standard of equipment, and in funding levels generally.

1146.

If one walks from Methodist College to Millfield one will see the difference in the sector. Without wishing to sound glib, Mr Byrne's point is that we need more money. What will come out of the 11-plus review? If the 11-plus is abolished, will we have grammar schools? Of course we will, although they will not be called grammar schools - they will be called something else. What will further education do then?

1147.

Many schools argue in favour of doing more vocational training. That is a perfectly valid argument, and I have no quarrel with it. Mr Dallat's eyes are sparkling. There is a secondary school in every town in Northern Ireland. If secondary schools can be expanded and topped up at a higher level, then they could accommodate some of what would have been the further education sector. That is a possible way forward, although you may think that I am arguing against myself.

1148.

That said, I am also arguing for the expansion of the further education sector to the institute of technology level. An attempt should be made to move everything up a gear. We need consistency in funding across the sector. Another question that we have to ask is what further education is for? Having worked in it for most of my life, I still cannot say for sure. It does what it does because it has always done it. It does quite a lot of good work in many areas.

1149.

In my college I have the right - within reason - to do what I want. That is wrong. It should not be left to me to expand engineering or to close social services, for example. That sort of decision should be made at a more strategic level. We need to look at what further education is about. If it is meant to be providing training for industry, what are the universities doing? Who is asking the universities what they are providing for industry? That is a crucial question. We are bringing in geography, sociology and psychology graduates from universities and retraining them in business studies and catering, because they cannot find work.

1150.

Mr Dallat: Should the further education colleges undertake applied research for business to attract further funding? What is your view on research and development?

1151.

Mr Murphy: We need to carry out research, but not pure academic research - for example, into nuclear physics. If we are meant to provide a service for industry and a trained workforce we need to link more closely with small and medium-sized enterprises. This is something that we have developed in relation to Springvale, where we are involved in incubation units. We need to be able to say that there is someone from Mr Chamber's department with a degree in electronics who can provide training for particular people in that area or who can undertake product development from his training. Product development will be an important part of what we do. The difficulty is that it is only in universities at the moment.

1152.

The pure academic research should remain with the universities, but the more applied research should be coming from our people at post-HND, post-foundation or post degree level. It can then be returned into the economy. We are bringing people from across the community into further education. We are funnelling them in and progressing them. When they come out they have to feed back into the community to close the loop otherwise we will not achieve what we set out to achieve.

1153.

The Chairperson: Thank you, Prof Murphy and colleagues. You have been extremely helpful. Thank you too for your written submission, which we will read closely. We have now over 80 submissions to the inquiry, so we have a lot of material to sift through.

1154.

There is a recognition that many of these issues need to be addressed, and we will take a special note of your question on what the sector is about. It may be that it is the Government's fault that we have unfairly expected further education to work out its own raison d'être without giving enough clear directions under both direct rule and the Assembly.

top
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 7 December 2000

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly

Witnesses:
Mr A Arbuthnot ) Department of Higher and Further Mr J McKeown ) Education, Training and Employment

1155.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon, gentlemen. It is my pleasure as Chairperson to welcome Adrian Arbuthnot, Director of Divisional Regional Operations, and John McKeown from Employment Guidance and Regional Support.

1156.

As you know, we want to focus on careers advice and guidance as part of our broader inquiry into the impact of the training system. Perhaps you could make an opening statement, after which you can take questions from the members.

1157.

Mr Arbuthnot: Thank you. By way of introduction, I should say that the Careers Service in Northern Ireland is integrated into the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) and operates through our network of job centres. We employ professionally qualified careers officers, of whom there are presently just short of 100. The most important activity they undertake is liaising with schools and interviewing and giving guidance to young people at key stages of their school careers. We have a system whereby we make service level agreements with each school defining the type of service it wishes from the careers officer. The agreement also indicates the level of support that the school itself can provide for the career aspirations of the young people. Our careers officers undertake a survey of school leavers each year, and I believe you were provided before the session with the statistics I have in front of me.

1158.

We also have a careers information unit, which distributes up-to-date, relevant information to schools, job centres, further education colleges and training organisations. We are in the middle of a careers guidance review established on the recommendation of 'Strategy 2010'. That work is currently in hand, and we expect to see some results in about a month. I am not sure that I should say much more at this stage, but I am more than willing to respond to specific questions if that would be helpful.

1159.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much for that introduction. Who would like to ask a question?

1160.

Mr Byrne: I should first like to welcome the two gentlemen here from the Careers Service. As someone who had 21 years of education, some of it secondary and further, I always had the feeling that the service was under-resourced when it came to manpower. One would see a careers adviser once a year at the most, and it would be a fairly formal interface or interaction with a group of students. I always felt there was not enough time for a student or group of students to develop an ongoing relationship with the careers adviser.

1161.

In the case of particular further education colleges, very often one lecturer or teacher was given some time to devote to careers advice. I felt that that too was under-resourced, and very often the student lost out. Do we need more careers advisers and a greater commitment in time to the individual student or trainee who wishes to avail of a more ongoing counselling service to develop his career?

1162.

Mr Arbuthnot: I will invite Mr McKeown to comment in more detail. We are in the process of recruiting additional careers officers. It is fair to say that the Department recognises the need for further resources in this area. The area that you have highlighted is one in which the review of careers guidance is also taking an interest.

1163.

Mr McKeown: In individual programmes in schools and colleges you will find a variety of levels of resources in activity. We encourage careers officers, through the partnership agreements with schools and colleges, to negotiate based on client group priorities, so that if someone needs additional time that is made available to them. That will also depend on the resources in the school or college and the nature of the programme.

1164.

The nature of the programme varies from one school to another and varies in different departments in the further education sector. We are absolutely committed to buying-in additional resources such as careers advisers. Where a client needs more time and continuity of contact with the careers officer, we encourage that to be put in place. There are developments to introduce earlier intervention in Year 8 in England, which is the equivalent of our second form. The careers officers would begin their intervention usually in Year 10 - third form - with subject choice, discussion and advice. Depending on the nature of the programme in the school, the continuity will then continue into fourth, fifth, and into lower and upper sixth, if necessary.

1165.

Mr Byrne: What concerns me is the unstructured approach or relationship between the careers advisers and the careers service in schools or colleges. Mr McKeown referred to the fact that it is different in every school or college. That is where the service is failing the student. I would like to see some thought given to developing a co-ordinated approach so that there is a clear standard criteria applied for all schools and colleges where there is a contract between the careers advisory service and the college or secondary school, so that students do not lose out. Some students will tell you that they have never seen a careers officer or had a counselling session. We are failing them if we allow that to continue.

1166.

Mr McKeown: While there are differences between schools, that does not mean that there is a lack of structure. The structure is based around the service level agreement with every post-primary school. The service level agreement details the nature and content of the careers education programme in that school and what the careers service will, or can, contribute to that programme.

1167.

Mr Byrne: Do you accept the merit of having a co-ordinated structured approach?

1168.

Mr McKeown: Absolutely.

1169.

Mr Dallat: How will the issue of gender preconceptions relating to certain disciplines or occupations be addressed by the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment's careers advice and guidance service? How are you breaking down the cultural difference between the electrician and the physics professor? Finally, how are you dealing with people who have problems with literacy and numeracy?

1170.

Mr Arbuthnot: Careers officers are professionally qualified with a diploma in careers guidance. It is central that the professional training and qualification equips them to provide impartial advice which is free from the gender stereotyping, et cetera, that people might otherwise drift into.

1171.

Mr McKeown: I want to echo that point. During the first university- or college-based year of a careers officer's training and also the probationary period, much time is devoted towards equality issues, equality legislation and the avoidance - in the negative sense - of gender stereotyping, and in the positive sense of actively encouraging young people to think outside the gender stereotyping that they are exposed to from all directions.

1172.

Mr Dallat: I want to go further than that. For example, do you talk to the Fire Service in order to encourage "firewomen" rather than firemen? There have been welcome changes in the electricity service, and there are now some female trainee-engineers. Northern Ireland has a bad reputation for this problem. Is there a two-way process, or do you just talk to the students?

1173.

Mr McKeown: No. Part of a career officer's remit and a key element of their job is to be aware of what is happening in the labour market. They visit employers on a regular basis because that is built into their caseload. Through that, careers officers challenge recruitment practices and seek to advise about gender stereotyping and also why a particular employer would, for example, choose five GCSEs as a requirement. Those are the sort of questions that are asked as we attempt to challenge employers.

1174.

Mr Dallat: You have not answered my question about literacy and numeracy, or the point about the cultural breakdown of sparks and academics.

1175.

Mr McKeown: I will address the literacy and numeracy issue, and any matter regarding social exclusion. The whole drive of UK careers services is to target those who are socially excluded or disadvantaged in any way, as a priority. Literacy and numeracy are obviously two major disadvantages. The thrust of our own review will include serious consideration of the social-inclusion agenda and, following the review's recommendations, those clients with literacy and numeracy difficulties will be targeted as a priority group for careers advice.

1176.

Mr Dallat: Last week I represented the Committee at Cookstown and saw some of the practical work that is being done. I want to take this opportunity to encourage you to do more of the same and congratulate you on the work being done.

1177.

Mr Beggs: I want to go back to the topic of service level agreements. You said that there were different service level agreements with different schools. From the evidence that the Committee has heard, there is a concern that pupils can occasionally be tunnel visioned and pointed solely towards the academic route. Do you agree that if there is not an appropriate service level agreement that that is a danger, because in the world of academia success is often measured in terms of A levels and university places, rather than by training and directing people into appropriate and successful careers - no matter what they chose?

1178.

My second question is in regard to the interaction between the job market and the careers service. There are stories about plumbers being offered £14 per hour. Electricians and other tradesmen are unavailable, and in those areas with skills shortages they can almost name their price on occasion. How has the careers service highlighted these issues to schools, and how has it encouraged people to move into those areas? Why has it failed? Why do these gaps exist? What is wrong with the current system?

1179.

Finally, what national or international comparisons have you made, and what lessons have been learnt from elsewhere? For instance, the Committee has heard about the Welsh experience where the careers service is completely independent and has independent responsibility for careers guidance.

1180.

Mr Arbuthnot: Your first question related to academic qualifications, perhaps a person's vocational aspirations. You are right. There is a tendency in some schools to set as the gold standard the A-level/university route. It is important that all young people - whether they are the academically gifted who will go on to attain university qualifications, or the less academically gifted whose future may lie in vocational training - have equal access to advice with regard to subject choice and, ultimately, to career aspiration. The intention is that the service level agreement with each school, given its culture and ethos, will be different and that the careers officer will agree a series of actions through the school principal.

1181.

Mr Beggs: Why should it be different? Why should the same level of professional advice not be given to every school?

1182.

Mr Arbuthnot: I would argue that the same level of advice is given to every school, but each individual pupil is different, and each will have differing needs. There will be differing resources available in schools. The service level agreement is intended to ensure that the input to every school is equalised as far as possible, and that no school or its pupils should suffer because of any differences. Whether it is on the issue of subject choice and academic study, or on the choice of vocational training route and employment opportunities in the job market, it is important for that advice and those services to be available.

1183.

Young people are given advice on vocational training opportunities. You mentioned as an example plumbers and electricians. Opportunities such as modern apprenticeship are made available as an alternative to A-level study. That is part and parcel of the advice given by the careers officer.

1184.

Mr McKeown: The achievement of academic qualifications is a worthy goal. It is not a target of the careers service, whose simple target is to help young people to make better and more informed choices. We are not in the game of pushing people towards anything.

1185.

Mr Beggs: I am not accusing you, but there is a danger of an inappropriate service level agreement. For instance, 20 years ago as careers guidance I might have had half an hour from an outside consultant when I was deciding what to do with myself. It was not necessarily good or bad advice. Perhaps there is a need for a more even level of service to be provided for all schools.

1186.

Mr McKeown: We intend that the service is even, but the structures and differences are dependent on each school and its principal. For example, a school may have a blanket interview policy. Everyone is interviewed, whether they need it or not. Another school may have a policy of highly selective interviewing, of targeting priority groups. They may only be able to facilitate small group work or class talks. We have to negotiate a programme with each school, but we hope that our input to whatever structure is of high quality and consistent.

1187.

Mr Beggs: How would you feel about being totally independently responsible for careers guidance? Perhaps you could tell us more about the Welsh set-up.

1188.

Mr McKeown: You mentioned the skills shortages and encouraging people in those areas, but we have to walk a tightrope in that regard. The Department wants to help people make good decisions, so the guidance must be impartial. We do not want to limit people's aspirations, but we must bring in an edge of reality and link the guidance to opportunity. The Department will make young people aware of where the skills shortages are, but it wants them to make their own choices - just as you did many years ago.

1189.

Careers officers constantly tell us about situations where young people have been pushed towards a skills shortage area. Computers are the famous one at the moment. Young people opt for computer courses only because that is where the jobs are now. However, their reasons have to be greater than that, and that is what guidance is about. Employment guidance and regional support will inform the young people that there is a skills shortage and opportunities in that area, but we will also assess them more fully, and it is hoped that that will help them make a stronger and more sustainable decision.

1190.

With regard to international comparisons and the impartiality argument, we are accused from both sides. Educationalists accuse us of encouraging young people to leave school, and training organisations accuse us of encouraging young people to stay on at school. Knowing that we are impartial helps me sleep easy at night. We cannot keep both sides happy. However, we are studying the national developments. The Connexions service in England, the Welsh model and the Beattie Report in Scotland will inform and assist Northern Ireland's review of careers guidance. We hope to take the best practice and recommendations from England, Wales and Scotland to inform the Northern Ireland review.

1191.

Mr Beggs: When will that review occur?

1192.

Mr McKeown: It is now under way, and it is hoped that the initial report will be ready early in the new year - probably January.

1193.

Mr J Kelly: Considering your relationship with the labour market, you must feel that there is a relationship between the labour market, schools and the curriculum. Do you have any input into the curriculum?

1194.

Mr McKeown: Yes, there are two elements. We, along with the Department of Education, fund the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership (NIBEP) which increasingly has more impact on the curriculum. It brings the worlds of work and education together through industry days, industry awareness and mock interview programmes, et cetera. That is one element, and we are also consulted on the new curriculum development, particularly in relation to employability which is one of the major themes of Curriculum 2000.

1195.

Therefore we do have an input, the thrust of which is to establish a stronger commitment to timetabled careers classes, stronger service level agreements, a stronger sense of partnership and stronger links with the world of work. From the outside, we help to advise employers and to strengthen the relationships between employers, training organisations, schools and colleges.

1196.

Mr J Kelly: So there is a two-way feedback?

1197.

Mr McKeown: Yes.

1198.

Mr Beggs: Why are there so many vacancies for plumbers and electricians? Those are good opportunities for well-paid employment, and there is a possibility of becoming your own boss in those areas. So, why is there that failure? What areas have you identified, and what changes are you suggesting to try and address that failure?

1199.

Mr Arbuthnot: It is the responsibility of the careers officer to present opportunities to young people so that they are able to make a choice about career options. However, it is improper for careers officers to direct young people into particular job areas. Careers officers should work, particularly with employers, to ensure that the job opportunities within particular industries are well publicised so that young people may be attracted to those occupations and can make a reasonable and balanced choice. It is not only the responsibility of careers officers. We have a large part to play as do employers and industrial sectors, which are in a position to promote the employment opportunities in their sectors.

1200.

Mr Beggs: There is a perception that a job that is at a technical level - such as one where you may get your hands dirty - is not given the recognition of importance that it deserves in society. Also individuals who do choose to enter these areas do not have a clear understanding of the opportunities available. How could we improve that perception?

1201.

Mr Arbuthnot: That has been true in the past, and it may remain true today. However, the introduction of modern apprenticeships has been a step in the right direction, whereby vocational areas have modernised the way in which they present themselves, which includes information regarding how people can get qualified to work in particular professions. The aim is to revamp the image of some of the more traditional industries.

1202.

Mr Beggs: Are the current places in modern apprenticeships fully taken up, and are there any plans to increase the number of such apprenticeships within the next budget?

1203.

Mr Arbuthnot: It is an integral part of our agenda to look at all the important skills areas of the economy and to encourage people of all ages to focus in on those areas.

1204.

Mr Byrne: I have attended a number of careers exhibitions in the past, and they were very worthwhile - although I am not aware of many in recent times. Do you still carry on careers conventions? How many of them would there be in Northern Ireland, and how are they spread geographically?

1205.

Mr McKeown: They are still in operation. In recent years, these exhibitions have become larger in scale. The Methodist College convention, which is a Northern Ireland-wide convention, receives funding and support from ourselves because it brings employers, universities and colleges to the attention of young people from around Northern Ireland. We also support transport arrangements to that conference.

1206.

There are individual schools careers conventions at a rate of up to three or four per month throughout the academic year in Northern Ireland. Our Careers Occupational Information Unit issues a monthly bulletin that lists those conventions by date and location. If a manufacturing company was to say that it could not get five engineers or technicians, despite contacting schools or putting advertisements in the paper, our approach is usually to link that employer with a careers convention or industry day. In doing so, the company heightens its profile and has the opportunity to sell itself to young people. At the very least, it can make the information available regarding what is involved in both the industry and in those specific jobs. We are trying to match the two up to provide that solution.

1207.

Mr Dallat: How do you see the career guidance service developing as a continuous support to promote lifelong learning and those aspects of development that are now taking on the importance that perhaps they did not have in the past?

1208.

Mr Arbuthnot: Are you referring to the all-age guidance aspect of that? I will ask Mr McKeown to come in with some more detail, but the careers officers based in our job centres do give advice to adults who call in there. The careers service is available to all ages, even though it focuses mainly on schools and young people, but there certainly is a capacity to give advice to people of any age.

1209.

Mr McKeown: The bulk of the careers officer's work is done in schools, but that relationship then continues based on the young person's choices on leaving school, whether it is a further education college or employment - because we do some follow-up with young people who have secured employment.

1210.

Our priority group is those young people who leave school into unemployment and also those who transfer to colleges. So we maintain a proactive contact up until young people are aged 19, or 22 for disabled people. Following that, the contact comes from the other side, and it is a self-referral system for young and older adults to approach the service if they need guidance. If they do refer themselves, then we provide a counselling interview and any other support that is needed.

1211.

I am in post about a year and a half, and one of the things that we have developed is a very strong working relationship with the Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA). We are working out that relationship and trying to ensure that no one falls between the gaps of educational guidance and general careers guidance. We now have a good system of cross-referral and, in fact, we are working closely together on a number of projects around quality standards and guidance, so there is a good partnership built in there that will help us in our approach to lifelong learning and guidance.

1212.

Mr Dallat: I was going to specifically mention EGSA for that is the type of service that needs to be available across the North, and particularly to those people that they identify. If the new dimension that we now are in politically is to mean anything, then everyone must benefit. There are so many people who have been left outside the loop, or indeed people continually dropping out of it, that the EGSA principal needs to be enshrined right across the service.

1213.

Mr McKeown: Yes, very much so. I have regular meetings with the director of EGSA, Eileen Kelly, and our goal is to work in partnership with EGSA to support its information and guidance network.

1214.

Mr Dallat: I have two questions. The Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) has set up in recent years a skills unit to look at gaps or differences between labour demand and supply, which Mr Beggs and some other members have mentioned.

1215.

How are the results coming from it fed through to people like yourselves who are working on the sharp end of careers guidance? Obviously research is published - there is a document with a yellow and blue cover, a labour market skills bulletin that was published about a week and a half ago, which is very good. However, it is not a document that every 16 or 18-year-old is running around looking at on the school bus, or wherever they happen to be. So, how are we getting the information across?

1216.

Secondly, did I pick you up right that the review of the careers guidance service is producing a report in January of next year?

1217.

Mr Arbuthnot: In answer to the second question, yes you did.

1218.

With regard to the first one, I would call it one of the strengths of our system that our careers service and our careers officers are an integral part of the T&EA and therefore the wider Department. The work in the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment- the work of the skills unit and other relevant work - is channelled down through the Department, through myself as the relevant director, so that it can inform the careers service, and careers officers can be briefed as to what current and future trends might be with regard to skills gaps, and so on. Our economists and statisticians - people like Terry Morahan - also give talks and hold seminars with staff, and they go around Northern Ireland disseminating the results of their work. There are well-established channels of communication.

1219.

Mr Byrne: Reference has been made to the review that is currently being carried out within the service. How widespread is the consultation in relation to that, and who is in charge of the drivers for change that may emanate from it?

1220.

Mr Arbuthnot: The review group is operating under the chairmanship of Prof Sean Fulton of Queen's University, and the membership of the group includes several representatives of employers and local industry and a variety of educational interests. The review group has undertaken a number of focus groups with key people, employers, schools and young people themselves, around different parts of Northern Ireland. So they have consulted in a fairly widespread way.

1221.

Mr Beggs: I was not aware of that going on. Careers guidance is an issue that has come in front of the Committee from a number of our witnesses. It is important that we have an input and have time to reflect on the evidence presented and be consulted by the Department in such a process. That is something that the Committee will have to discuss. Is your deadline definitive? You said that it is going to be finished by January. Perhaps that is something that the Clerk and the Chairperson could discuss with the Department.

1222.

Mr Arbuthnot: The January date has been set as the date for the review group to provide, at the very least, an interim report to the two Departments. I am quite sure that the work will be ongoing beyond January.

1223.

The Chairperson: We would find that reassuring. The Committee will have to decide whether it wishes to call, for example, Prof Fulton to a session.

1224.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr Arbuthnot and Mr McKeown. We wish you well in your very important work.

top
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 18 January 2001

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr Hay
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:
Sir Kenneth Bloomfield )
Mr J Coote ) Northern Ireland Higher
Mr R Holmes ) Education Council
Mr N Morrison )

1225.

The Chairperson: I welcome the delegation from the Northern Ireland Higher Education Council (NIHEC). NIHEC's activities have benefited Committee business. Its recent report on student finance and its inquiry into the Northern Ireland training system, which the Committee is currently working on, are two such examples. We would like to take evidence on the latter this afternoon.

1226.

Thank you for the documents explaining the activities and background of NIHEC and your business submission to the inquiry.

1227.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: The council welcomes the present dispositions for government here. There is now an institutional focus for tertiary education in a way that there was not before. That is not to say that the Department of Education neglected the tertiary sector, rather that it had to balance different interests in primary education, secondary education and the sport and recreation sector. Therefore, NIHEC regards as a positive step the establishment of a Department and Committee that is particularly concerned with those matters.

1228.

One of our papers sets out the background to NIHEC's appointment and work. For a long time there was a unitary United Kingdom higher education system, and the university grants committee advised on the distribution of moneys in Northern Ireland

1229.

Of course, that was dealing with a university system in which you had the old, established universities, the civic universities, the more recent universities of the 1960s and then the polytechnics, which were also offering degree courses. When the Government of the time abolished the binary line - which immediately and enormously increased the number of universities - it seemed sensible to disaggregate the decision-making and advice-giving responsibilities. In a way, that has been very convenient because higher and further education are among the matters that have been devolved to the three jurisdictions. Therefore, it is appropriate that, in each of the jurisdictions, there is a body specifically concerned with advising Government about higher education in its own area.

1230.

It is important to realise that education in Northern Ireland is an important entity in itself, as well as a constituent part of a wider British and, indeed, Irish university system. There is a wider context for all of this, which we try to keep together through periodic meetings between the several chairs and chief executives of the four bodies within the United Kingdom now dealing with these matters. We meet every few months and take account of developments that have a national importance. It is significant for us because I am sure we will touch on the overspill of the locally-generated demand for education into the supply of education in other jurisdictions in the United Kingdom. There are, therefore, profoundly important interactions.

1231.

The other thing we have been conscious of from the beginning is that it is important to keep in close touch both with the universities themselves - and it is a lot easier to do that if you are dealing with two bodies rather than with 100 - and with the customers of education, whether they are Northern Ireland students looking for higher education qualifications or industries looking for the sort of support that a university can give. Therefore, we have been at some pains - and no doubt you are going to pursue this further - to try to improve the lines of communication between the university system and those interests in society that draw upon it.

1232.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. We move on to some questions. Who would like to go first?

1233.

Mr J Kelly: What are your views on the current state of higher education and business partnerships, particularly with regard to small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs)?

1234.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: All of us, including universities, have to be conscious of the SME element in the local economy. The fact that so much of our activity is at the SME level has itself some impact on the university system. When universities are looking for research funding they want to look not only to Government but to other funders, including, in many cases in Great Britain, industrial funders. We have fewer heavyweight players than they do on the British mainland. This means that SMEs are often looking for technological support and advice from the university system in Northern Ireland, rather than pure research.

1235.

There are many ways of improving and building on the links between SMEs and universities. It is a bit of a shibboleth of mine, but I believe there is a big role in this for university government. Each university has a supreme body - in the case of Queens, for instance, it is the senate, on which I briefly served - which typically brings together many of the heavy hitters in this society, including people in commerce and industry. My impression, from sitting on the senate for a relatively brief period, was that it was rather a responsive body, responding to matters coming up the academic chain and sometimes rubber-stamping them.

1236.

University government has quite a job to do in ensuring that each university responds to the needs of society. Norman Morrison will now talk on matters such as the Teaching Companies programme. After a career in the schools inspectorate, Mr Morrison ran the Industrial Research and Technology Unit (IRTU) in the Department of Economic Development. He brings his considerable knowledge of the links with industry to the Northern Ireland Higher Education Council.

1237.

Mr Morrison: There are two areas in which our universities are well to the fore in helping small companies. One is the Teaching Company programme, which has grown substantially faster in Northern Ireland than elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Both universities participate to a large degree. It is a scheme that enables a bright young graduate to be placed with a company to tackle a problem specified by the company. Through a funding mechanism, the university backs that young graduate with the technical support and expertise that he may need to forward product development. Teaching Company schemes fall more into the area of research and development than that of business development and company development.

1238.

Recently, our universities have been very active in setting up the Manufacturing Technology Partnership. That is an American innovation that we have adopted in Northern Ireland following Mr Clinton's first involvement here. The main focus of the Manufacturing Technology Partnership was to encourage all firms, particularly SMEs, to use appropriate technology when developing products. This is necessary because small firms are not usually in the business of research and development, but they are in the business of ensuring that they use the right kind of technology. In recent years both universities have been very active in this partnership. That is to be encouraged. It has been a big step for them. Universities are aware of the importance of this development. We are now beginning to see some impact being made and new small companies using appropriate technology. Queen's University has a unit in manufacturing processes that helps industry. It has had this unit for many years, but it has been refocused and enhanced by the development of the Manufacturing Technology Partnership. Both universities are responding well in this area.

1239.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: For a long time, two main streams of Government funding went into the university system. There was a stream for the support of teaching and a stream for the support of research. Led by the chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE), a third stream of funding was then developed, which is the Higher Education Outreach to Business and the Community (HEROBC). That is designed to support the university in strengthening its links with society in ways that cannot be described either as teaching or research.

1240.

The Northern Ireland Higher Education Council has examined and made recommendations on bids from our local universities under the HEROBC programme. For example, we have a proposal to build on Queen's University's existing contribution to the development of local society in enhancing its links with business in the community. Over the next four years it will develop a regional office aligned to local economic development needs and dedicated to ensuring the effective interaction of the university with all aspects of business in the wider community. There are plans to strengthen opportunities for the further development of technology transfer and the commercial exploitation of the university's intellectual property for the economic benefit and prosperity of the region.

1241.

There will also be a co-ordination unit for the enhancement of the university's programmes of continuing professional development for the technical, professional and business communities, as well as a centre for co-ordination of work experience for students and staff to meet the requirements of employers, professions and society in general. We have had matching proposals from the University of Ulster. That would be the third stream, but in money terms I would never see it being as significant as the two main streams. However, I would see the third stream of funding as a really important way of building upon and strengthening those links, particularly with commerce and industry.

1242.

Mr J Kelly: Thank you for a very comprehensive answer.

1243.

Mr Byrne: A much higher percentage of 18-year-olds go on to higher education in Northern Ireland. However, there is a great mismatch in the demand for, and supply of, higher education places. How do you envisage overcoming that problem? Students who have to leave Northern Ireland are disadvantaged because they cannot get a place here due to the much higher entry qualifications. Do you envisage expansion of the two existing universities, or do you want to see some sort of decentralisation and further networking with further education colleges?

1244.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: Thank you for that question. You are on to an area to which we have committed a great deal of time and thought. One of our earliest pieces of work was a report to Government on what we call access, participation and student migration. It is true that in Northern Ireland we generate a relatively high demand for higher education. In many ways demand is remarkably high, given the socio-economic profile of the community. In 1998/1999 - the latest figures that I possess - the age participation index for the conventional undergraduate age group showed that demand was 41·2% for Northern Ireland, as against a Great Britain average of 32%. At the moment not all of that demand is, or can be, satisfied in Northern Ireland.

1245.

We gave extensive evidence on the subject to the national Dearing review of higher education. That was based on the work that we had undertaken as a council previously, which had persuaded us that while there was a considerable number of voluntary leavers going to universities outside Northern Ireland - we had nothing against that and did not feel we ought to be stopping it - quite a large number were involuntary leavers. Those are people who would rather have attended a local university, whether for economic reasons, family reasons or another reason. They were being priced out of the system by the very high tariff.

1246.

There is no doubt at all that, if you look at the list of A-level grades required to get into particular universities throughout the United Kingdom, you will find both the universities in Northern Ireland relatively high up - well above the mean. Queen's University is rather higher, but both are relatively high up. That means that quite a lot of people with sufficent A-level points to gain admission to universities elsewhere to successfully take a degree have had to go outside Northern Ireland without wishing to do so.

1247.

That is a changing pattern because it appears that alterations to the system of student support increase the likelihood of people seeking a university education closer to home. Happily, we strongly persuaded Dearing to recommend something be done about this. There are all sorts of bases on which you could argue how many extra places were needed, but the Dearing view was that we were at least 5,000 places short of what was required at that stage. Since those days, we have seen quite substantial progress in terms of the number of people staying at home.

1248.

We should not be as fixated with the question of how many people go to university across the water as with the question of how many, having gone across the water, do not come back again. I have little doubt that, given an economically attractive Northern Ireland, a huge number of the young people who go outside Northern Ireland would love to come back, if they could get a job and a salary that matched their expectations.

1249.

In my own mind, the ideal pattern would be one where Northern Ireland's universities cater for students from a wide range of places and where some of our people go away. However, this jurisdiction has the biggest mismatch in numbers between the demand for higher education and the local ability to satisfy it. That is being rectified progressively, and we are happy about that because we think it is an important matter.

1250.

Mr Byrne: The expansion of higher education taking place in Scotland has happened primarily through the use of further education colleges as out-centres for the main universities. There seems to have been a substantial growth in that area. Should we be concentrating on expanding the existing universities or should we take a similar line to that taken in Scotland?

1251.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: A shorthand way of looking at that would be to say that Northern Ireland is short of one university. However, that is not an argument for creating another one. You rightly point out that we are talking about three universities, although we are concerned primarily with Queen's University and the University of Ulster. The Open University is a remarkably successful organisation here and in other places. It caters for a different type of student, and we should remember that the Dearing context was really one of encouraging lifelong learning.

1252.

As we look to the future, arguably both types of organisation have got to provide more places for the conventional 18-year old cohort. However, they also have to have more room to take on board mature - and often part-time - students who are refreshing their qualifications. As Dearing said, there are various ways of making up that type of gap. The argument exists for creating wholly new institutions - or we could add to Queen's University and the University of Ulster. However, there is the question of higher education being pushed further out into the further education system. That is capable of being a significant part of the answer.

1253.

A few years ago, I went to an awards presentation at the North Down Institute in Bangor at which 18 people were getting full university degrees. Those degrees were from the University of Sheffield and had been essentially franchised out to that college. However, people in the college taught the course, and everything had to pass the University of Sheffield's standards. The University of Ulster, in particular, has put a major emphasis on this type of outreach. The more you want to extend higher education to people suffering some economic disadvantage, the more you will want to push it out to mature people. Therefore, you must look at various means of outreach. Further and more extensive use of the further education colleges is one such means of outreach.

1254.

Queen's University has adopted a different approach, and you will know about its presence in Armagh. I would see the issue taking place on two fronts. The first would be termed further outreach; through the further education colleges or in other ways. The second would be by adding to capacity in the two existing universities.

1255.

The Chairperson: You mentioned the Open University. We hope to have representatives from that organisation here next week.

1256.

Mr R Hutchinson: Are the higher education establishments producing enough of the transferable skills?

1257.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: The academic hierarchies in the universities are better embedded into economic development and planning than they used to be. One of the wholesome things about Northern Ireland in recent years has been that economic interests have not always been prepared to wait for Government to produce a plan. They developed plans of their own, and I welcome that.

1258.

I served for quite a long time in the Department of Economic Development, and it is good to see industrial and economic players trying to take part of their destiny into their own hands. People such as Gerry McKenna at the University of Ulster have been fairly deeply involved in that.

1259.

It is unrealistic, when you only have two institutions, to expect them to produce all the skills Northern Ireland may require. There will always be some disciplines for which Northern Ireland students will have to look elsewhere. There is not necessarily anything wrong with that. One must remember that a small discipline can easily be a little uneconomic. A massive operation is the best basis on which to mount credible research.

1260.

Mr Beggs: What is the view of the council on the foundation degree proposal? To lend the answer a degree of credibility, can you perhaps give some further basic information about exactly who you are and the composition and background of your members? I am trying to see what your decision-making processes are and how you interact between the universities and the Department. Are you independent? How do you operate?

1261.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: There is a significant distinction between us and the three other bodies I am talking about, namely the Higher Education Funding Councils for England, Scotland and Wales. They have actual funding responsibility and executive authority in their own field. They must operate within guidelines set for them by the responsible Minister; they cannot simply distribute money as they wish. They are given guidelines, but within them they are responsible. We are a different body, in that we are currently an independent, non-statutory advisory body.

1262.

One of the arguments advanced in the Dearing report is that it is right in principle in any jurisdiction, including Northern Ireland, to have an intermediary between the Government of the day and the universities. They have argued in principle that it is right to have that happen. I am bound to say to you that what we have so far given to the Department - initially the Department of Education for Northern Ireland, and now its successor - is advice. I am not aware of our advice having been thrown out the window and disregarded in any instance.

1263.

One could say it is a confidential relationship. We produce reports for the Department, and it decides whether they are published. I must confess to having occasionally hankered after the Northern Ireland Economic Council model, which produces reports that are sometimes not very highly regarded by Government. They may needle and annoy everybody, and I believe that is a legitimate role sometimes, particularly for an advisory body. People can always say that they think the advice is lousy and that they are not going to follow it.

1264.

As to the constitution of the body, all of the councils in the different parts of the United Kingdom tend to have a mix of academic and non-academic members, largely, though not solely, from the business community. There are other players like the National Health Service. There was clearly a difficulty for the Department in Northern Ireland. At this point I must highlight the fact that we are not self-appointing. We do not decide who is going to serve; it is the responsibility of the Department to make appointments.

1265.

At the outset, the Department saw a difficulty, in that we are essentially dealing with two institutions. If one had academic members from Queen's University and the University of Ulster, they would spend the whole time talking about their own business. It is often a zero-sum game, and it would be highly embarrassing. Therefore, the situation is rather strange in that, while there are a great many heavyweight English and Scottish academics on the Higher Education Funding Councils for England and Scotland respectively, we have heavyweight academics from across the water.

1266.

That is not an ideal state of affairs, but it can be compensated for by another consideration. Because there are only two institutions, we are able to do what our counterparts cannot practically do: meet regularly with the top management of the two universities. Mr Coote and I in particular meet both vice chancellors fairly regularly, and not necessarily always when we have some sort of controversial business to pursue. We try to keep in touch and understand how they are thinking. It is important to do so, and, although we have no representatives from the universities on the main council, we have incorporated them into a number of the working-party exercises we have carried out. We find them very helpful and constructive. My view is that it works very well, but I should note that Dearing felt there should be a different model in place.

1267.

You also made the point about the involvement of industrialists and local representatives from business, and that is reflected in the membership of the committee.

1268.

Mr Beggs: What is the balance between former civil servants and business people? How do you come to a decision and what credibility should be given to it? What are your views on the foundation degree?

1269.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: It is an interesting experiment in extending higher education. The Government want to be able to say as soon as possible that 50% of people will have access to higher education. However, there are two views in the academic community on the foundation degree. One view is that there are other qualifications that are not degrees, but which are good, well-established qualifications, and that there is nothing wrong with them. Others take the view that the foundation degree is worth trying. It is being piloted in Northern Ireland. It widens access and reaches part-time students, which is important in Northern Ireland.

1270.

Mr Morrison: There is some concern in the further education system that the foundation degrees may impinge on existing higher education courses that are not designated as degrees. The pilot programme will explore that issue and give us a better view of how it should be handled. There is a genuine concern that foundation degrees may affect qualifications such as the Higher National Diplomas. That issue will be addressed during the piloting phase, before the new degrees are firmly established.

1271.

Mr Beggs: When do you expect feedback from the pilot scheme? How long will it run?

1272.

Mr Coote: It will run for approximately two years.

1273.

Mr Beggs: That would be the end of the first course.

1274.

Mr Coote: Yes.

1275.

Mrs Nelis: Your report states that students here should have the same opportunity to participate in higher education as their counterparts in the rest of the United Kingdom, including the same choice of course and place of study. That suggests that there will be increased pressure for higher education places in local institutions. I hope that you are making the argument for another university, and I want to put in a plug for Derry; Magee should have full university status. I agree with everything that you have said about that.

1276.

I was at an interesting meeting last night, held as part of Minister McGuinness's consultation on streaming and the 11-plus. There was a huge attendance, and some very interesting and stimulating presentations were made. One recurring allegation was that streaming has led to a division between vocational and academic education, which, in turn, contributed to de-skilling. Will the foundation degree proposals lead to some sort of marriage between vocational and academic courses?

1277.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: That is an important issue. We should not imagine that there is too clear a dividing line between the two, but it is interesting to note that many studies of the supply of certain types of labour in the British economy show that there is not necessarily a shortage of graduates, but a shortage of the type of person who - in Germany, for example - would be good at working from technical drawings et cetera. It is important to have the best facilities available for those with a vocational bent. It is also important not to regard somebody who wants to pursue the vocational rather than the academic course as second-rate. That is an important principle. An industry such as Seagate, for example, will want someone who has taken a PhD and has been through the whole research process in a university. However, an SME may be looking for a more practical man or woman. So, it is important to keep the two potential streams in mind.

1278.

Mr Morrison: In general, that is true. The format of the new two-year degree has yet to be explored and developed. Many people say that the existing programmes of advanced further education meet some of their requirements. Perhaps, it is now a matter of giving vocational courses proper status. Some people argue that the value of that type of industrial degree needs to be more fairly recognised, to bring it into line with the others. There could be merit in that.

1279.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: Another important word is "progression". Northern Ireland is ahead of other areas of the UK in the development of a comprehensive credit accumulation and transfer scheme, known as NICATS. The whole idea of lifelong learning is attractive and important.

1280.

I once attended a presentation of certificates at a college in Enniskillen, at which they did an interesting thing. When the students came forward, they said not only what certificate they were receiving, but where they were going from there. An amazing number of them were going on to, for instance, the University of Ulster or to a university in Scotland, and it made a reality of the whole idea of a ladder of progression. In Northern Ireland, we are quite well prepared to develop that, thanks to some outstanding work on the NICATS scheme.

1281.

Mrs Nelis: There were many tributes paid last night to the excellent work carried out by secondary schools and further education colleges. However, there is still no recognition, and that should be addressed.

1282.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: Perhaps, it would be best if I were to confine myself to the field of higher education.

1283.

The Chairperson: That is very wise.

1284.

Mr Coote: I would like to add that the pilot for the foundation degree will be geared to the skills needs in Northern Ireland. That will also help.

1285.

Mr Dallat: My question could be open to interpretation, but I will take a chance on it.

1286.

Obviously, there is now a great demand for the new-age industries such as biochemistry and information technology, and both universities are well geared up for that. Do you see any shortfall in the number of IT graduates that we produce and, equally importantly, do you think that the humanities and the arts are now taking a back seat? Is there less demand for them? Is there greater difficulty in getting funding for postgraduate courses? I know that you have a personal interest in this because I have heard some of your lectures. Perhaps, it does not relate directly to jobs, but, if that were to happen, we would be much the poorer for it. There is a big risk that the new-age graduates will emigrate to more lucrative places, and the people left behind will not be equipped to provide the lifelong learning and all the other things that are so important.

1287.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: As a graduate in modern history, I am sympathetic to that. Indeed, I am a very ancient modern historian. It would be very sad if the arts and humanities were to be neglected. For a long time, there was no heavyweight sponsor of the arts and humanities in the funding system. Government funding for research comes through two streams. One is from the Department or funding council and the other from the various research councils, which consider specific projects. It is only relatively recently that the Arts and Humanities Research Board has joined the other bodies. That is important.

1288.

Industries often say that they want people who have learnt disciplined thought processes, not necessarily people whose research bears directly on what they will be doing. The employers can teach them that. Even high-tech industries such as Seagate want the sort of person who has done a thesis for a doctorate and knows how to go about a rigorous research programme. Employers do not necessarily expect all of them to be operating in their specific area, and that is important.

1289.

As you know, we have recently been involved in the management of the support programme for university research (SPUR). All of us at the council, as well as the two universities, took huge encouragement from it. It was an opportunity to promote excellence across the spectrum. It was not only for bids for work in the economic and technological areas, but for the social and cultural areas too. We are an economy, but we are also a society and a culture. Universities exist to adorn and support all aspects of our life.

1290.

The Chairperson: Mr Dallat's first question was about IT graduates. There has been much controversy about whether there is a shortfall in graduate provision. Do you want to comment?

1291.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: The University of Ulster is, I believe, the largest single provider of IT education in the British university system. There is no doubt that the subject is taken seriously. Both our universities do it, and it is regarded as the jewel in the crown. I am not aware of any industries requiring those skills being turned away. However, I can see the need to go on producing more of these people, just as I can see the need for everybody to be more IT-literate, whether they are pursuing law, geology or whatever.

1292.

Mr Morrison: One of the features of the development of higher education in recent years has been the way in which the appropriate use of IT has spread throughout many disciplines. Specialist information technology courses are no longer the sole provider of such skills. There are few university courses, even in the humanities and arts, which do not require students to become involved in using IT. However, there is a danger that people who have a qualification that suggests that they are IT-proficient may apply for a position that is much more specialist than their qualification allows. The recent report on IT skills showed that there was a problem with industrialists and companies recruiting people with IT skills, even though they had only a one-year top-up course on a general degree. Obviously, they did not have the experience to carry forward some of the more advanced work that the companies required. We must get the balance right.

1293.

Both our universities operate well in the areas of computer science and technology. I understand that Queen's is to further its activity in the specialist academic area of computing by establishing a high profile "Centre for Software Excellence". This should be appreciated and encouraged. The universities here are certainly well up with the best in the UK in this regard. There will always be a debate as to whether courses meet the requirements of the community. In my own experience - I worked a long time in this field - I have found that some people imagine that, after a short three-month top-up course, they can walk into an academic position in computing or technology, only to disappoint their employer. We must be aware of that danger. Our universities and colleges are well aware of it.

1294.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: It is not irrelevant that, at the level below the tertiary sector, there has been huge investment in schools in IT and other technology. When I was a lad, the more able boys in the school wanted to do history, English or modern languages, but my impression is that the abler children tend to opt for science and technology, because that is the nature of their interest.

1295.

Mr Morrison: I used to find it interesting to go into a school with a new computer suite and talk to the children who were using it. I would pretend not to know what was going on, in order to get them to explain to me what they were doing. The degree to which the young people were using the technology was amazing. They were using it not just for their computer courses, but also for geography, chemistry and so on. Schools have fostered the use of IT across the curriculum and that has been further developed by the universities. Things are not perfect, but they are moving in the right direction.

1296.

Mr Carrick: I note that the council broadly welcomed the five recommendations relating specifically to the provision of higher education in Northern Ireland. I have also noted your response. Three and a half years later, is there any change that you think would be beneficial to the provision of higher education in Northern Ireland? To what extent has there been broad parity between higher education provision in Northern Ireland and in GB in the 1990s? Has that parity been an advantage or disadvantage? Is the system properly tailored to meet the unique needs of Northern Ireland? Is it a properly focused programme?

1297.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: When we examined such matters, in the early years of the council's existence, we saw that an unusually large number of students was forced to seek higher education outside Northern Ireland. However, the deterrent effect was not so great as to reduce greatly the participation of Northern Ireland students in the higher education system. If they had to go to Great Britain to get higher education, many of them would go there. Changes in student support plus the additional costs of being in Great Britain work to the disadvantage of some, particularly those from families who may not be well off.

1298.

We are not necessarily concerned with increasing enormously the proportion of Northern Ireland kids who get into higher education; we are concerned with changing the mix. We do not do too badly. Students from the lower levels of the socio-economic ladder are better represented here than in Great Britain. That is hardly surprising, as it is, after all, a reflection of our society. However, we still do not do well enough.

1299.

I think of the case of some youngster who, perhaps, grows up in quite difficult circumstances, but despite that gets decent enough A-levels to get him a place in a university in England or Scotland. What happens if he is priced out of the Northern Ireland market because he cannot meet the A-level tariff to get into Queen's or the University of Ulster? The worry is that, in such circumstances, some people might decide not to go to university at all, which would be a tragedy.

1300.

There have been many changes. In the past, a substantial cohort of people from the Republic of Ireland came up to universities in Northern Ireland. That became progressively less attractive with the change in the funding regime in both jurisdictions. That freed up places that could be taken up by local people.

1301.

What needs to be done? We thought that we should progressively increase the number of places available in Northern Ireland. That is happening steadily. Perhaps, it should happen more quickly, but it is happening progressively.

1302.

Our major worry was research. When the council came into existence, the basis of research funding changed to reflect and measure research quality. I am sure that you all know about the research assessment exercise (RAE); some of us know it only too well. It is designed to be an objective rating on a certain standard, to which the money is tied. If we had gone directly to that system in Northern Ireland, there would have been a substantial drop in funding for research. The then Department of Education prudently - I congratulate them on winning their argument with the Department of Finance and Personnel, which is not always an easy thing to do - established the so-called NIDevR.

1303.

A large part of our early work was the examination of bids for NIDevR moneys and recommending how they should be allocated. At that point, we were looking particularly at the needs of Northern Ireland. We were looking at arguments for more money that could be spent, not just to the benefit of the university, but to the benefit of Northern Ireland. However, NIDevR was never intended to be a permanent mechanism. Under the Conservative Government there was a considerable fall in the money devoted to research in Northern Ireland. That was a worry, because our work and the parallel work carried out by the Northern Ireland Economic Council indicated two things. One was that Northern Ireland was peculiarly dependent on its university system for research. There are not, as in other places, massive research institutes outside the university system. The second is that Northern Ireland was the only jurisdiction in the United Kingdom where research funding was going down in real terms. We found that alarming.

1304.

The introduction of SPUR was terribly important, because it is a means of getting research funding. We can argue about the ideal level, but we are trying to get funding up to a more decent level. We hope that it will be possible to keep up that funding level in the longer term, or even to improve on it.

1305.

The other major issue that was addressed by Dearing, which has still not been confronted, is the question of how the Government should deal with the tertiary sector. We must take a comprehensive view of all the educational opportunities and facilities available beyond the secondary stage. There is interaction; there are higher education courses in further education colleges. Who should do what and where? It is some time since the Government issued their consultative document on that, and one of these days they will decide what should be done.

1306.

The Chairperson: Perhaps you do not want to hazard a comment on that, but since you raise the issue, would there be a case for NIHEC and the Further Education Advisory Council to come together?

1307.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: Dearing envisaged that there would be separate funding councils - one for higher education, one for further education - and that they should be brought together by some kind of over-arching body. I, and others, did not find that idea terribly attractive. It could be rather confused. There are other possible models. Perhaps, there could be a single council that would deal with tertiary education. Some people will say, "Does this mean that money that should be going to higher education will be creamed off into further education?" or vice versa. That will not necessarily be the case, because the Department can say "Here is a budget for higher education and a budget for further education".

1308.

There is also training; we must remember it in the equation. We could have either a single council with two panels - maybe with overlapping membership but a single secretariat - or two councils with a single secretariat. There is some similar experience elsewhere, for example, in Wales. There are various means of getting greater authority in dealing with the whole tertiary sector.

1309.

Mr Hay: Is there a need for stronger ties between universities and industry in Northern Ireland? How can funding be better co-ordinated?

1310.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: The links between the universities and industry could be improved. I will just say that it takes two to tango. We have set up quite a number of seminars and conferences, to which we invite the academics and the customers. What typically happens is that the academics are there in strength, but there are not many people who represent the consumers of university research. That is partly because we have an SME economy. The poor business guys are run off their feet. They are running a small business and cannot spare somebody to sit for a day listening to people like me spouting. I can understand that, but more movement is required from both sides.

1311.

Mr Hay: My other question was on funding of development and research.

1312.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: The Northern Ireland Economic Council report covered that area. The NIEC was of the opinion that there should be central Government oversight of the whole research budget. I can see some advantages in that. We must remember that research in the universities is not just about supporting and developing the economy. Important though that is, universities exist also for the pursuit of learning and the development of a civilised society. There certainly is merit in seeing what is happening across the board. Not all the money that universities get from the Government comes through the Department on the advice of NIHEC.

1313.

Mr Morrison: The contribution made by other Government Departments to research activity is very important, and we need to give it much more consideration. For example, other Departments are involved in funding industrial, agricultural or medical research. There should be some form of central co-ordination of Government funding of university research - it does happen, but it could happen to better effect.

1314.

Wearing my hat as chairman of the postgraduate awards committee, I think that we must be careful to ensure that our universities are adequately funded when doing research. There is a real problem with the funding of research students in the university. We are asking bright young people with a first class honours degree to stay in university for three years to do a PhD, while we pay them up to £9,000 a year. They could leave and earn £20,000 plus - right away. That is a real difficulty.

1315.

I am not recommending that industry should be allowed to dictate the wages; but we must recognise that, unless we adopt a much more realistic approach to the issue, there will be fewer and fewer research students in the universities. If the university does not have foot soldiers - research students and research assistants - to help develop its research, we will have difficulties.

1316.

It is interesting to see what is happening in industry and commerce in fundamental research. Increasingly, not just small companies but large companies are deciding to develop their basic research within the confines of the university. Companies such as Du Pont and the international telecommunications and electronics companies are now happy to encourage university departments to explore and develop basic research. To be fair, they are willing to fund these developments, and we must encourage this activity which allows funding to go from industry directly to the universities, particularly in support of research assistants and postdoctoral researchers.

1317.

We are greatly encouraged by the postdoctorate funding that was granted two years ago. It was funding from a private donor. Increased funding of this kind should also be provided by Government and public bodies. However, the uplift that that has been given to our five-star departments in the universities is apparent. They can now get bright graduates who are willing to stay to do postdoctoral research. Such students will receive a more appropriate salary while they develop their leading edge technology and research.

1318.

Ms McWilliams: Leading on from that, if we have got the SPUR initiative, which is based on matching funding from private donors, then we clearly need a matching funding initiative relating to education and business. If we have got funding for research, we need a matching initiative to help us make those links.

1319.

Did the Higher Education Council propose the HEROBC initiative? The Chairperson and myself are familiar with what is wrong with the research assessment exercise. In many ways it is theoretical, not sufficiently applied and it has not taken Northern Ireland applied research into account. Internationally, we could be judged as world experts on transvestites yet know nothing about the application of that research. That actually happened at the University of Ulster, quite incredibly - and you will understand exactly where the difficulties lie.

1320.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: I do understand.

1321.

Ms McWilliams: As a Higher Education Council you constantly need to be making those points in terms of where we lie. It is good to have comparable data, but what if it does not relate sufficiently to the circumstances of Northern Ireland? Our universities need a huge shake up to make them more entrepreneurial. They need to think placements, they need to send them out and leave them to their own devices. We need rigorous supervised placements, and, to take up your point, not just in industry. They could be in politics, for instance. If one accepts your point that you can be analytical and not descriptive in relation to the questioning skills you develop, then it is not necessary for those placements to be solely in industry. Our universities are not thinking along those lines regarding life, work and citizenship. Rigorous placements for a lengthy period should be obtained for those courses - six weeks is absolutely useless. I would be interested in your response to that. As a Higher Education Council you must have been looking abroad. You must also address communication skills, because we are sending out students who can barely speak to you, never mind stand up and deliver efficient policy analysis. Those are issues about matching funding with education. You make the point in the background paper, which I agree with, that we need to attract students from other countries. Some of our best students have gone away from our universities on a business education initiative to America. How do you see that developing?

1322.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: That is a fair number of questions. I am sure that we can improve. My personal impression is that both universities are now more entrepreneurially led than they have been for quite a long time. I do not think we have reached a stage of perfection, but there is a greater readiness to acknowledge that a lot needs to be done to link the universities more closely with the community.

1323.

You mention the problem of matching funding. That is one not just for higher and further education, but right across the piece. As you know, I was involved with victims in the past, and I was very worried that a lot of the money going to support those causes was coming out of temporary European funding. One asks oneself "What happens if and when that money dries up? Is this, or is it not, a priority?" One has got to decide what the priorities are.

1324.

You asked where the HEROBC initiative came from and the extent to which it came out of the university system rather than out of the mind of somebody else. To be fair, all the universities, to varying degrees, have, for a long time, been doing things for which they are not specifically funded. They have acknowledged some sort of civic duty and they have been doing things that have been neither teaching nor research, in the classical sense that particularly applies to research as narrowly defined for the purpose of the RAE. I acknowledge what you say about that. Clearly there have been difficulties in getting the RAE right.

1325.

In my view, the real author of the whole HEROBC approach was the present chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for England, Brian Fender, who is something of a visionary and has been very generous with his time in Northern Ireland. He came and met our council and people in the universities on a number of occasions.

1326.

He said "The universities are already doing many things that are not specifically funded, and they recognise those as their contribution to the wider society. Arguably, they ought to be doing more. Therefore, that should be acknowledged through some form of funding". The HEROBC approach developed out of that. Frankly, we came into line with it. We thought that it was a good idea when we first heard about it, because it could be argued that the universities are even more important as a source of fresh ideas and intellectual vigour in this community.

1327.

It still makes up a fairly modest part of total funding, which is where another difficulty arises. The Department goes to the Executive and secures a line of funding for higher education. How many parcels do you divide it up into? As you are aware, the interesting thing about the main funding stream is that it is earned through performance. However, it then goes into a pot that can be spent more or less as you wish. Money earned by an excellent department of marine engineering could be used to prop up a poor department of whatever. There is plenty of flexibility.

1328.

I welcome that because a council such as ours or the Department's should not be too prescriptive in telling universities precisely what to do. They need to use their own initiative. That is an important and growing matter. You are absolutely right that it is not just about links with business. Other parts of our society need, deserve and ought to receive support from the university system. I hope that this is a means of doing so.

1329.

Mr Morrison: There is a further point to be made. The council has developed research funding for local initiatives, which enables us to offer resources to the universities to help them bring forward research and development ideas in areas not normally directly supported, following the research assessment exercise.

1330.

It is interesting to note the way that the initial spend of this funding has brought the two universities together, particularly in meeting some of the matters that you discussed. Perhaps we are going in the right direction by stimulating new ideas and by supporting them outside the normal university, economy and industry interface. It gives scope to those areas in the universities which have difficulty in gaining funds flowing from the research assessment exercise.

1331.

Mr Coote: In England, there is a partnership between the funding council and the Department of Trade and Industry, which adopts a joint approach. In Northern Ireland, it has only been between the Departments so far. There may be a case for a partnership approach between the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, the Industrial Research and Technology Unit and the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment with regard to HEROBC and enterprise developments.

1332.

Mr Morrison: I would support Mr Coote's comments. It is sometimes frustrating to think that while there are distinct Government departmental plans for research there are areas where research activities overlap which would benefit from a co-ordinated response across Departments.

1333.

One could never say that this does not happen, because there are regular meetings of Northern Ireland civil servants to discuss these issues. Collaboration between Northern Ireland Departments on such issues is much easier to achieve than is the case in Whitehall.

1334.

Nevertheless, more direction is needed from the centre when the Government seek responses from industry, business and the universities on issues related to research.

1335.

Other areas of the public sector, such as hospital authorities and environmental agencies, should also be drawn into partnerships with the universities.

1336.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much, Sir Kenneth, Mr Morrison, Mr Holmes and Mr Coote. Your comments have been extremely interesting and useful. We are grateful that you gave up your time to come here and for the documents that you submitted in order to aid our inquiry. There is little doubt that we will wish to speak to you again in the future. Thank you very much. We wish you well.

1337.

Sir Kenneth Bloomfield: Thank you, Chairman, for your courteous reception. We are encouraged in our work by your obvious and deep interest in matters. I am sure that we can look forward to increasing the strength of Northern Ireland's university system. It is an important element in our future progress. Thank you for your invitation.

top
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 25 January 2001

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Ms McWilliams

Witnesses:
Dr R Hamilton, )
Mr G Sloan, ) Open University
Mrs H Carlisle )

1338.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon and welcome to the Committee. This is part of our inquiry into the impact of the training system in Northern Ireland to the needs of industry. Thank you for your written submission and the copy of the slides. Are you prepared to give a short introduction and then answer questions for about one hour?

1339.

Dr Hamilton: Yes. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This is an important occasion for the Open University as it is the first time that Northern Ireland's third university has been invited to give evidence to an Assembly Committee.

1340.

The Chairperson: You are setting a precedent.

1341.

Mr R Hutchinson: You are among friends.

1342.

Dr Hamilton: That is good to know. We welcome the opportunity to talk to the Committee and to discuss our response to the consultation document.

1343.

You have had the opportunity to read our response and we hope that it will be helpful to preface our discussions by identifying some of the key issues from the Open University's point of view. We are quite happy to answer your questions and to discuss any issues.

1344.

I hope that you will find our handout helpful. We strongly agree that the tertiary sector can make a significant contribution to economic development in Northern Ireland. The articulation between education and training and industry and commerce requires clarification and some rationalisation. In particular it needs people in the two sectors to work together. The two routes have been running in parallel for a long time. The formation of the Department has begun to make them converge into one single endeavour to link education and training and economic development in Northern Ireland.

1345.

Although economic development is important, we wish to see our discussions as part of the tertiary sector's wider contribution to Northern Ireland. We do not want to neglect our significant public service sector, and contributions might improve its effectiveness and efficiency.

1346.

Studying in any sort of education sector, but particularly in the tertiary sector, makes a useful contribution to what we have called citizenship, and we have given some examples of how we define that. For example, the understanding and appreciation of other people's traditions and cultural background, of environmental issues and the responsibilities of individuals and of the corporate sector in maintaining and improving our environment. Another example is the understanding of scientific developments and how these affect everyday living and the ethical issues that surround many scientific developments, in particular, enabling people to make informed judgements about events in their daily lives.

1347.

A final example is that of social inclusion. Studying gives people the opportunity to develop their full potential and helps them to become more involved in society and to make a better contribution to it. Having said that, we recognise that the focus of our consultation is on the contribution of the tertiary sector to economic development. That is why we are here.

1348.

Most people when they think about the tertiary sector, that is higher and further education, think about the conventional university sector, the 18 to 25 cohort. They think of how we prepare that cohort for work and for its chosen career. It is a very useful preparation for young people. We have highlighted its two facets. First, it gives them the specialisation and the background knowledge to go into their chosen career. Equally importantly, it helps to give them - and perhaps there was less focus on this in the past - "employability skills". One could call them key skills, generic skills or graduate skills. These enable people to adapt and to make a useful and immediate contribution to the economy and to their employer.

1349.

It is also important to think about what happens next. What happens after the age of 25? We must consider the whole lifelong learning agenda. What does it mean for the tertiary sector and for the Open University in particular? People want to continue to learn. Some may have missed their opportunity the first time round. Will they be just left in abeyance? How do we provide opportunities for them to develop their learning?

1350.

We are focusing this afternoon on three kinds of individuals, or aspects of lifelong learning. First, we focus on ongoing professional development. It is a cliché, but nobody is now in a job for life. People need ongoing professional development. They sometimes feel that they are falling behind and they want to keep up to date in their area of endeavour, or they may wish to develop their skills. "Up-skill" is a jargon term, but it helps to describe how people's skills do not stand still. They must develop, improve and continuously work on their skill set.

1351.

There is also the area of career advancement. People who are in employment may want to change the direction of their career. For example, someone employed in a technical capacity might move into a supervisory or management position and will need to develop management skills.

1352.

The third aspect we highlight is skills development, particularly for people who have been unemployed for a long time, or for significant periods of their lives, or who have been made redundant. We all know of industries in Northern Ireland that have experienced significant redundancies recently. Those people must consider how their careers are developing and learn skills to return to employment. We are focusing on those three categories of people for whom lifelong learning is very significant.

1353.

To make such opportunities real and accessible, we feel that there is a pressing need for complementarity of provision. Most of the documents that one reads relate to the 18 to 25 cohort and to initial tertiary level education. That is the main focus. We feel that there needs to be complementarity of provision for lifelong learning. It needs to be flexible in part-time provision, day release, evening classes and, of particular interest to the Open University, the provision of open and distance learning. We need flexibility so that the courses fit in with the other demands and commitments of people who are in employment or who have other demands on their time.

1354.

In order to achieve such parity of provision there must be parity of provision in the support services, such as financial and tax incentives for individuals or for companies, training grants and fees support which could be based on outcomes rather than on mode of study.

1355.

We welcome the Minister's proposals for additional support for higher education. However, it could be argued that they still focus too much on traditional higher and further education, and that there are few proposals for part-time lifelong learning provision

1356.

There are different costs associated with study - buying books or a computer, consumables for a computer, travel to a tutorial or, in the case of Open University students, to a residential school site.

1357.

It may seem strange to mention childcare when talking about open and distance learning. However, sometimes lack of childcare prevents students from receiving the significant support that they might get from attending tutorials. The Minister's recent announcements offered additional childcare support for those in full-time education, but not for those studying part-time.

1358.

The Open University does a great deal of research on its students and it discovered that one of the greatest disincentives to continuing studies is not just the fees but the additional costs.

1359.

Our final slide illustrates the Open University's key role in supporting economic development in Northern Ireland. Some of them are listed, and the Committee will be familiar with how the Open University operates.

1360.

The Open University is a distance teaching institution taking learning to people. It does not ask people to come to it and there is no attendance requirement. It teaches through supported open learning. It has open entry and there is no entry qualification requirement for the undergraduate programme. The Open University offers structured learning to help people through their studies; it guides them and sets them goals and milestones as they work through their courses. It gives them personal support.

1361.

The Open University offers a range of provision in courses and qualifications. What the Open University calls a course most other people call a module. So for "course", read "module", and the Open University puts several modules together towards a course of study.

1362.

The Open University offers pre-degree, graduate and postgraduate qualifications. Information and communication technology (ICT), management and biosciences are some of the subjects taught through the Open University and which are particularly relevant to this exercise. My colleagues will highlight a couple of examples to show how the Open University can make its contribution.

1363.

The Open University also offers advice. It is important that mature students are given the right advice on how to choose their courses and how to prepare for them. My colleague, Mrs Carlisle, is instrumental in advising people of the support available before they begin their studies. It is crucial to support people in that way. There are notable exceptions, but most people find it difficult to do it on their own.

1364.

The Open University offers local tutors and local study centres with high-quality teaching that is widely recognised. It is subject to checks by the Quality Assurance Agency and teaching quality assessments (TQAs) that are carried out with all United Kingdom universities. The Committee may not be aware of that. I think that the 'Daily Telegraph' printed the ranking results of the TQA outcomes. That has been done twice, and in the last publication the Open University came tenth of all the universities in United Kingdom. We are very proud of that.

1365.

The Open University provides its service nationally and internationally. Students can study with the Open University in any European Union member state, including the Republic of Ireland. We are responsible for the Open University's provision throughout Ireland - North and South.

1366.

Teaching and learning are delivered through a variety of media. Different courses will select different media: video, software, and more recently, online, depending on the course. There is a great deal of online provision, particularly for some of the postgraduate courses.

1367.

Key to the university provision, we offer relevant, high-quality, state-of-the-art, flexible methods of learning, which we hope will make a significant contribution to skills enhancement and economic development in Northern Ireland.

1368.

Mr Sloan: In our main submission, sections 2.3 and 4.4 through to 4.8, we refer to the distinctive nature of open study programmes and courses, especially in IT. In your handout is appended a selection of programmes which we feel could contribute to improving the region's skills base. I am not trying to sell you these programmes, but if anyone is interested please let us know. This is not a sales pitch.

1369.

In recent months we have been encouraged by the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and by representatives of the private sector to identify these courses and to give them a higher profile. They could definitely help with the skills training objectives set out in the Northern Ireland Executive's draft Programme for Government.

1370.

I will highlight the skills gained from four of these courses - skills that are required for a competitive economy and a knowledge-based workforce in Northern Ireland. A very popular course is 'You, Your Computer and the Net', which deals with skills taught completely online through the Internet. It develops skills for studying and communicating online; experience of working collaboratively; appreciating the impact of the Internet in business; working as a group; and online working as a team. 'Creativity, Innovation and Change' is a second level course. These courses are all presented from access level through to postgraduate professional development and are for managers who wish to promote an imaginative and flexible organisation and to encourage creativity, entrepreneurism and innovation. These are taken from the Executive's Programme for Government.

1371.

'Project Management', for example, is for people who have not been in management and, while they may not like it, have to take on management responsibilities. This course is aimed specifically at helping people to take on management responsibility and to deal with the knowledge and techniques of day-to-day management. In reading through the draft Programme for Government I noticed that one of its objectives is to train a number of farmers in the region to be managers. This is precisely the sort of course that can help.

1372.

A very popular course is the fourth course dealing with the development of software, the world of e-commerce and the Internet. While commending your inclusive policy on Irish and Ulster-Scots, we have a new language here called JAVA, and it is absolutely essential to software development. We have a specific course for industry and commercial managers at professional skills level.

1373.

Those are the sorts of skills courses which we provide, and we have a selection of courses which are with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment at the moment. We are convinced that these courses could help create the knowledge-based skilled workforce that you wish to see.

1374.

As Dr Hamilton said, a feature of the programmes is the support for open learning and the advice given to students.

1375.

Mrs Carlisle: I feel like saying, "we have the technology". My expertise is mostly in student support. As well as quality and relevant courses, success is also linked to how students are supported. With the increase of shift work, supported distance learning is the only option for many workers. However, it can be quite isolated and there can be a lack of support. Certain conditions are crucial for supporting students. One of them is the point of entry: it is harder for mature students trying to find their way back into education than we might think. The students must find what is right for them as well as finding the right starting point. We have an inquiry advice system which enables those who are in interested in studying to make an appointment with an adviser to discuss their needs and aspirations and to plan a programme of study that suits each individual.

1376.

That is crucial for any person, but especially for an adult returning to education. We have diagnostic tests, many of which are now going online so that people can check to see if they will be able to enter at a particular point. The point of entry is crucial to success, and most universities now have a range, from access courses to undergraduate and postgraduate levels. Getting the right point is very important.

1377.

Once he or she is on the course, each student will have a personal tutor who will hold face-to-face tutorials and who will also be available by phone and, increasingly, online. About 80,000 Open University students are online, and the figure is increasing. It can include conferencing group work, which is an important way of learning how to use the new communications systems. We also have a system of vocational guidance. At the point of choosing and throughout the course, students can approach advisors for help and direction. That is very important.

1378.

About 80% of our students are in full-time employment, and, like all services, we are increasingly going outside traditional office hours to support students. An example is our computing help desk, which is open to students from 9.00am to 10.30pm seven days a week. If a student gets stuck at 7.00pm on Sunday, he or she can phone for help. The availability and accessibility of help are extremely important if people in work are to continue improving their skills. It is something which employers are very concerned about.

1379.

Dr Hamilton: Thank you very much for your attention. I shall certainly try to answer your questions and provide any information necessary about our responses, our presentation today and the university itself.

1380.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. As you said, no one has a job for life, something of which Assembly Members are aware.

1381.

Mr Beggs: Are all your courses entirely self-financing, or does any public money go towards them? If so, from what source? We heard recently about the success of individual learning accounts. Does that apply to your courses? Learning Direct and the University for Industry are closely related. Do they cover the same ground as you, or do you collaborate to avoid duplicating provision? How many of your students are from Northern Ireland and how many from the Northern Ireland Civil Service? Is the Civil Service encouraging the use of the Open University?

1382.

Dr Hamilton: The Open University is funded as a national institution by the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE). Since April 2000 our colleagues in Scotland have been an exception, as they are now funded directly by the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council. We receive on average about a third of the tuition costs for each student from fees and two thirds from the core grant that we get from HEFCE. It depends very much on the course and the discipline, but it is about £1000 per student from HEFCE and £600 from the student.

1383.

Mr Beggs: We receive a quiet subsidy outside the block grant which we do not wish to highlight.

1384.

Dr Hamilton: That is a slightly grey area. I do not believe that we receive such a subsidy, since there has always been a transfer of resources from the Northern Ireland privy purse to HEFCE to pay for Northern Ireland students. In essence, they are merely doing the administration, while Northern Ireland pays for the students. HEFCE core funding applies only to students resident in the United Kingdom. For outside or non-UK students we make an additional charge to cover the extra costs of supporting them. They pay the standard fee with a supplementary charge, which means that they pay marginal costs.

1385.

The supplementary fee for students from the Republic of Ireland is less than that for those whom we term "continental Western European students". These are students from all areas except the UK and the Republic of Ireland. They pay more than students from the Republic of Ireland.

1386.

We are delighted that individual learning accounts (ILAs) are available to part-time higher education students in Northern Ireland. I am sure that the Committee knows that this is not the case in England. People can - and do - apply to the OU to study with ILAs. If you wish to have more information, Mrs Carlisle can assist as she deals closely with people who might use this kind of support to study our courses.

1387.

There are practical issues for us in Northern Ireland to consider, because our colleagues in England believe that nothing happens outside England - with the possible exception of Wales. Everything that applies in England applies everywhere else in the world. They tell people who make enquiries that students are not eligible for ILAs, while we have to inform Northern Ireland students that they are. ILAs are helpful to us. They are a useful vehicle in providing financial support for those students in employment who want to progress their learning.

1388.

Learn Direct is relevant to us and the OU is not in competition with it. It will end up being a brokerage, as it is not seen as a provider. People phone Learn Direct saying that they want to learn various subjects. They will be put in contact with providers registered with Learn Direct, or the UfI as it was formerly known. The OU has a helpful telephone link with the UK Learn Direct line. When one phones Learn Direct to ask what the OU offers, the call is put through directly to our Manchester office. If the call originally comes from Northern Ireland it can be re-directed here. We have spoken to the Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA), with which we already have close links. It is taking responsibility for the Learn Direct line in Northern Ireland. Neither the OU nor EGSA sees any reason why they should not set up a similar direct telephone service.

1389.

There are about 10,000 students in the whole of Ireland, of whom about 5,000 are in the North and 5,000 in the Republic. I cannot give any immediate data about the number of our students who are civil servants, but I know that the Civil Service is supportive. We have occasionally provided information for publication in a Civil Service magazine.

1390.

Mr Beggs: Thank you. I am very encouraged by your answers.

1391.

Mr Carrick: Your presentation acknowledged that higher education can make a broad contribution to the public sector and to citizenship. You spoke about the clarification and articulation of ownership in economic development. How does this lack of articulation manifest itself? I understand the OU's academic contribution to industry, but what is its practical interaction? How can partnership between the OU and industry be developed? Who has the major responsibility for rectifying the current failings?

1392.

Dr Hamilton: I spoke of having a background in the education sector and of gradually becoming aware of developments in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment. I am in the Belfast Learning City group, which discusses skills development and graduate skills. The project on graduate skills and personal development that we referred to in our submission was carried out with the two other universities in Northern Ireland. We started to talk about the skills task force, and I became aware that similar activity was taking place in industry and commerce - this was long before the establishment of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Training and Employment.

1393.

The creation of that Department will help enormously in bringing together those two interest groups, as will documents such as 'Strategy 2010', which are in the public domain and which are widely read and recognised. The Open University has a great interest in this area and we can show how we can contribute to economic performance.

1394.

The provision of learning and training for people who are in employment has already been mentioned in our discussion, and in connection with this I carried out an exercise when we were compiling our response to the student financial support consultation exercise. I found that a fairly small percentage of our employers say that they support our students, with between 8% and 10% of them claiming that they formally sponsor their employees. Others will act more informally. They will tell an employee who wants to study with the Open University that if the employee passes his or her first course, the employer will reimburse his or her fees and support him or her after that. There are all sorts of informal arrangements. A difficulty of being a national institution is not having opportunities in Northern Ireland for technology transfer and for carrying out research for industry. We do not have the expertise and the personnel to do that. I remember receiving an enquiry, which might even have come from this Committee, about the effects of fish farming on a lough's environment.

1395.

The Chairperson: It probably was not this Committee, but it might have been another Assembly Committee.

1396.

Dr Hamilton: It was from a Committee somewhere. I contacted some of my colleagues in the appropriate Department and asked them if any of our staff had expertise in fish farming. Nobody was forthcoming. It is something that we have to battle against a lot. Northern Ireland constitutes approximately 2·5% of the United Kingdom's population, and we have slightly more than 2·7% of its students, so we are doing quite well. In the overall picture, Northern Ireland is a minnow, and it is hard to persuade people to turn their attention to Northern Ireland to address some of those issues. I want to do more about that by offering our expertise in different areas.

1397.

Mr Sloan: We are being encouraged on partnership and we have applied that to programmes that could work very well in partnership in the public and private sector. We have to market the courses that we think would fit the training agenda over the next three to five years. We have been encouraged by the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment to do that. We are trying to get closer to local companies through individual learning accounts to convince them that they need these to up-skill and that they must have a learning work force. We see this as complementary provision; we are not trying to sell the Open University. We see it as part and parcel of our objectives to boost the economy and to create a knowledge-based workforce in the next five years. Partnership will be a major theme in our development.

1398.

Dr Hamilton: You specifically asked about partnerships. If you have access to the Internet, I recommend that you go into our web site. There is a great deal of information on it about the Open University and how it works. I read on our web site about an OU group which was set up specifically to look at the needs of industry and to develop bespoke training solutions for different industries. It is easier to do that with major industries, and we already have arrangements with some of them on a multinational basis. My colleagues have spoken to the UK Passport Agency about producing a bespoke training programme for its employees, using Northern Ireland as a pilot for launching that nationally. We can begin to tailor courses to companies' needs.

1399.

This is much more difficult to do with smaller companies in Northern Ireland. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment has a role in getting groups of similar SMEs together or in working with the FE sector, which has close links with local SMEs. The Open University and FE colleges together could help build learning programmes in partnership with the company to deliver what it needs. Otherwise one is wasting one's time. I simply cannot say who is to remedy this situation. Perhaps the answer lies in this room...perhaps not.

1400.

Mrs Carlisle: We mentioned the Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA). We need a similar independent advisory body for industry. I get a lot of phone calls from human resource managers saying "I have several people interested in this" or "I would like to put six people on a particular programme". I am aware that they must ring the Open University, FE colleges and other universities to make a judgement on the appropriate programme. That can be difficult and it would be helpful if there was a body they could approach; a body like EGSA, but more attuned to the needs of industry and companies.

1401.

Mr Sloan: This is a very interesting question. I am not suggesting that you are offloading responsibility - we are all responsible. Compared to Wales, England, Scotland or the Republic of Ireland, a very high percentage of Northern Ireland's economically active population, the 18 to 65-year-olds, is without qualifications. It is well above the average of 43%. All of us, not just the Assembly, have a responsibility. We hope to persuade you to invest in ensuring that those people get qualifications.

1402.

Mr Carrick: I accept that, but how can the Open University help improve matters?

1403.

Mr Sloan: Dr Hamilton referred to that. We have over 5,000 students, most of whom are in employment. I am not sure of the gender balance but I think that most are women. We will niche that. We are being encouraged to go into partnerships in the public and private sectors, linking with these skills courses. We will drive that forward to help you in your ambition to reduce the number without qualifications.

1404.

Mr Dallat: I would like to congratulate you on your pioneering outreach. The other two universities are in danger of catching up with you. Eighty per cent of your students are in full-time employment and many are probably in secure jobs. I would like to know about the Educational Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA). Far too many of our people are unskilled and have been deprived of even a basic education.

1405.

We will be glad of any useful advice for a Committee report to help redress that. No institution is more qualified to advise than yours, because yours was doing it long before the other academic institutions even thought of it.

1406.

Tony Blair promised every family a computer, albeit a reconditioned one. Are people being deprived of your courses because they do not have computers? Would it help them if the provision existed? EGSA works with people with whom I have a strong affinity.

1407.

Dr Hamilton: How we widen access and make opportunities available to everyone has been exercising us for some time. We have continuously tried to think of different ways of encouraging and supporting people to undertake learning. Mrs Carlisle said that it can be very daunting even to pick up the phone to ring an organisation like ours. Most people are intimidated by the word "university"; they think they can never go there. We speak from an internal point of view, but it is interesting to look at people from the outside. We work very hard at making it easier for people to approach us.

1408.

The Open University has an office in Belfast, and we have a very accessible regional centre. The Oxford regional centre is a palatial building on the outskirts of Oxford that never sees a student, but students drop into us all the time. That is much more important. We can give people information, brochures and an opportunity to talk to Mrs Carlisle or her colleagues. They are friendly and approachable and will answer anything and everything on accessibility.

1409.

We also hold open information evenings in different parts of the country. We use local public libraries, for example, as people do not seem to be so reticent about going into a library. We set up stands with leaflets and we have evenings when advisers such as Mrs Carlisle talk to people and give them information. We try to let people find out about us without their feeling threatened or awkward. In our Level One supported entry courses the university assumes that this person has no higher education qualifications, does not have the background in the subject and does not have the study skills. We must provide all that in our teaching.

1410.

We have a very structured approach to developing learning skills such as reading constructively and effectively, putting together a piece of written work, carrying out an experiment, doing a science course or, if you have never laid a finger on a keyboard, tackling a computer. We recognise that and produce a great deal of information and support to enable people to do that. However, we recognise that some people cannot even take that step, and we are gradually introducing a series of short courses called "Openings". Many people are interested in psychology, and our two most popular subjects are computers and psychology.

1411.

As these subjects are so popular, we try to provide people with a little study to gain some experience and practice. They will not fail in it, for they are sampling the activity. Many people are without qualifications because they failed somewhere else in the system, and we do not want to give them another experience of failure. We wish to give people a taste of success.

1412.

We are very conscious of all those issues. However, one important problem remains unresolved: many people do not have a button of interest in studying. How does one attract them to help them see that a little study might make all the difference to their lives? I do not know how one would tackle that other than in the ways described.

1413.

The computing element also exercises us continuously. Many of our courses now expect students to have access to some sort of IT facility, and we publish a range of computer specifications for each course. Of course, one might say that we ask people to have a computer, but this might be a very low-specification machine. Obviously, some of the courses which Mr Sloan mentioned have a high IT content and require high-specification machines. Therefore we first give people information on the resources that they will need.

1414.

The people who are least likely to have access to such facilities are those who receive financial assistance from the university. Probably 750 of our 5000 students in the North benefit by having facilities paid for through a financial assistance scheme. They have, or have had until recently, the opportunity to hire computers from us at a small cost - about £50 for a reconditioned machine for the duration of their course. Mrs Carlisle has direct experience of advising students on computing.

1415.

I do not believe we shall be having this conversation in five years' time. These aims might take 10 years to achieve, but I feel it will be five. Everyone will access this kind of technology through their television sets.

1416.

Mr Dallat: It is important to have it now. I probably should not say this, but I have come across quite a few people with no educational skills at all who have registered and who are starting their courses. They are very keen to succeed and do not fear failure. It is important that the Assembly knows that giving support wherever humanly possible works - much as you pioneered that work in the distant past when I was with you. It has experienced a renaissance.

1417.

Mrs Carlisle: There are many people in this field, and different things are appropriate for the individual at different times. We talk to groups which have come through locally based community courses. That is often the right place for people to start if they lack confidence. The important thing is to offer progression; some people will happily remain at a certain level, while others will wish to move on. The education system must offer progression that is transparent and well co-ordinated so that people are never lost. We can all work harder at that.

1418.

The national figure is 80% in full-time employment and 20% who are either in part-time employment or who are unemployed. I am not sure how that applies to our students in Northern Ireland. However, many of the people I talk to are in low-paid jobs and they want to get back into education in some way. Their being in full-time employment often militates against them, for it is far harder to find a course that one can attend which will allow one to progress and update one's skills if one is in full-time employment. The 80% of our students who are in full-time employment are very important.

1419.

Computers are a problem. We have always automatically supplied those in need of financial assistance with a computer, although we are moving towards a system of student loans. We are thinking of introducing a system next year whereby the student will be given a loan from which he or she will have to buy a computer. The advantage for the students is that they will own the computer; the disadvantage will be the loan. It is difficult for people to buy a computer if they are not sure. We will have to work hard at providing independent advice on that.

1420.

There is no dearth of available computers. Libraries have banks of computers and computers are provided by various community groups. We must find a way to let our students access them. There might be another system of funding to allow students to buy time in other institutions. The more collaboration we have, the better our facilities.

1421.

Mr Sloan: I consider the funding of courses for part-time students vitally important. It is an opportunity worth exploring. Ron Dearing told me that it would happen three or four years ago. It has not, and it remains one of society's biggest restrictions. Our inventive use of future funding could set an example to other regions.

1422.

The Chairperson: Can you elaborate on that? What, in particular, do you suggest should be done?

1423.

Mr Sloan: I cannot elaborate on the financial mechanisms for that, as I do not know how they work here. That has already been addressed here. I know, and research has shown, that it and lack of proper childcare provision are major impediments to people, particularly women, taking that option.

1424.

Ms McWilliams: What is the breakdown of Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland students? In your literature you describe yourself as a cross-border institution. I would like to see your statistics on low wages, part-time and full-time students, gender and age. I would like to see how the statistics differ north and south of the border to compare the two systems and the different skills they produce.

1425.

What kind of students come from the Republic of Ireland and what kind come from Northern Ireland? Do they look for different courses? Are they assisted differently? I see that looking at national structures is part of Mr Sloan's remit. That may be too difficult to answer unless you have evidence on how the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland operate with regard to the Open University. How will foundation degrees affect you? It seems that, unlike the university I taught in, the Open University student had to take longer to complete a course. Accreditation was built up and students were offered great choice.

1426.

We now fast-track; two-year degrees and foundation degrees are on the horizon. How does going online increase access? It seems that many students on low wages face problems. Does your system tackle the problems of groups that are under-represented in Ulster's universities? Is the interest still from the areas of small and medium employment and prisoners?

1427.

What incentives do you propose? You suggest the establishment of an advisory board for SMEs to create incentives that would bring those groups forward.

1428.

Dr Hamilton: The University carries out significant research on students' age distribution, on whether they are employed or unemployed and their level of prior preparation - how many have conventional qualifications, for example. Approximately one third of our students do not have the conventional entry qualifications. I can give you the comparative data on age.

1429.

There are interesting differences between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. The gender breakdown shows that about 51% of the University's students are women and 49% are men. In Northern Ireland it is still about 48% women and 52% men. In Northern Ireland the university has slightly more men than women. That differential is greater in the Republic of Ireland.

1430.

The proportion of those students who are in employment in the Republic is very different. They do not receive financial assistance to study. Income tax relief on course fees is an incentive for those wishing to study an OU course in the Republic. Even if the student is not the wage earner, his or her partner will also receive the tax benefit. That is helpful because it reduces their fee by about 28%, although they must still pay fees. Apart from employer support for individual students, there is no financial assistance of the sort to which we have referred to encourage access and participation. There are thus fewer people in the Republic in this bracket.

1431.

Until recently Open University students ranged in age from 18 to 94. The oldest student in Northern Ireland decided recently that he was too old to continue studying, as it became too hard for him. Most of our students are between 35 and 40, and our median age is 37. Increasingly, young people are choosing not to enter higher education after secondary education. They choose to go into employment and study with us from that base, so the percentage in that bracket is also gradually increasing. I can tell you of many interesting trends and statistics.

1432.

We are interested in foundation degrees and recently discussed them with Robson Davison. We occasionally fall through the loopholes that exist between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. We received an invitation from either the Higher Education Funding Council for England or the Department for Education and Employment to submit proposals for pilot foundation degrees. Working with local FE colleges, the Open University has submitted three proposals through our south-eastern region, which is based in East Grinstead.

1433.

The invitation for Northern Ireland went to Queen's University and to the University of Ulster. The invitation from the Department for Education and Employment was for England and Wales only. When I pointed out to Mr Davison that we occasionally fall through such loopholes he asked if we would be interested in foundation degrees. The OU is indeed interested in them and has a couple of models that we wish to consider with the assistance of our colleagues here. These models might be used at some stage, although not for the first wave of foundation degree courses.

1434.

Advanced work has been done on two models. One is e-commerce, where we feel we could work well with local FE colleges and local industry to deliver training for SMEs to get online and to work online. We could offer a useful foundation degree.

1435.

The other area is health and social care, particularly with young people, and we have been in discussion with East Antrim FE college about that. It is in its early stages, and we do not want to launch it publicly yet as it needs much more work. However, we could work with a college such as East Antrim and perhaps with some of the trusts to design a foundation degree in child development, for example. Those are two examples in which we are very interested.

1436.

Mr Sloan: It does not necessarily have to be our foundation degree, but conceptually we could provide part of it, or a block towards it. It could work in modules, or be a full-time foundation degree.

1437.

Dr Hamilton: It usually takes Open University students longer to obtain a graduate qualification because they cannot always study the 120 points in one year which a full-time student can - if there is such a thing as a full-time student these days. Most students seem to be engaged in other activities as well as having a job. People can study in a fairly fast track mode with us. We do not recommend that people study more than 120 points a year with us, but if the opportunity arose to do so and a student was otherwise unencumbered he or she could probably study 180 points in a year and complete a degree in two years. However, we strongly advise against it, and a student adviser would tell them to consider carefully what they are undertaking; that it can be done, but it is a very big commitment. That is an example of the flexibility that we extend to higher education opportunities.

1438.

It usually takes four to six years to complete a degree, although some have taken 10. That is fine; it is the student's choice. We have one or two restrictions on particular qualifications - the MBA, for example, is time-limited - but for the most part we allow people the flexibility to study at a pace that suits them.

1439.

You linked together the advisory body and the incentives. An advisory body is a one-stop shop where industry and students can get answers to many questions about studying in the tertiary sector. The incentives might be income tax relief on course fees paid. Until quite recently that was the case for vocational courses, but a UK-wide decision was made to withdraw that. That was unfortunate, but it has now been replaced by incentives such as ILAs. We will see how that pans out and will monitor the practical effect of introducing such incentives on widening access.

1440.

Mr Sloan: Unfortunately, as you pointed out, there are many in our society who do not have the technology to access online, Internet-based teaching. We are addressing that and are trying to identify the groups which are not coming forward to the OU. There are initiatives through training companies in the private and public sectors to support IT courses through European or local funding. The Committee must look at the access level in a more structured way, now and in five years' time. We hope then to encourage those people to come forward.

1441.

Dr Hamilton: Online access is very helpful for people who travel a great deal and who might not be able to attend tutorials, or for people in remote parts of the country. They would have access not only to learning but also to conversations with other students. Once they have cleared the hurdle of familiarising themselves with the technology and have accessed an online conference, they can talk to all the other students or they can post questions to their tutors. That can happen anywhere.

1442.

Mr Sloan: A former colleague of mine at Queen's University, pro-vice-chancellor Professor Bob Cormack, used to refer to "the warm body experience". Do not get the impression that our courses are all online. There must be personal interaction in the form of support and tutorials. However, technology and the skills required to use it are readily available.

1443.

Mr Byrne: How many students are enrolled with you now compared to 10 years ago? I have been given to understand that you no longer have the BBC as a delivery medium. Is that so?

1444.

Dr Hamilton: No. There is a major BBC production centre on our central campus.

1445.

Mr Byrne: My two local papers used to devote a full page of coverage to the Open University every year, but I have not seen it for the last five years. Something has happened to the message or to the PR.

1446.

How much is now invested in study materials and how does it compare to past investment? I found them useful when I was a lecturer in a further education college.

1447.

Ms McWilliams: We used to plagiarise them.

1448.

Mrs Carlisle: Ten years ago there were between 2,500 and 2,700 students; today there are about 5,000.

1449.

Mr Byrne: Therefore there has been an increase despite competition from other institutions.

1450.

Mrs Carlisle: We have many more postgraduate and professional programmes. I am not sure about figures for undergraduates, but their numbers have risen. We have also had a significant increase in the postgraduate field and in the other new areas.

1451.

Dr Hamilton: We started to teach law, which is an interesting new subject, a couple of years ago. Diversification has attracted more students.

1452.

That is a very interesting point about our graduates, although I am sorry to hear that you missed our advertisements. Every year we produce a list of graduates and a little summary, and all graduates are invited to write a piece about themselves for publication. They give us background about themselves, about their grandchildren, for example. That is assembled centrally by our communications division and is posted to all the local papers. We invite them to contact us.

1453.

I used a local PR company until about two or three years ago when a different way of using the promotion marketing resource was introduced throughout the country and we were obliged to conform with it. We no longer have the PR company. That might be a factor. That is a very interesting observation.

1454.

Mr Byrne: In fact, there used to be a full page of coverage with individual photographs of the local graduates. It had a great spin-off effect on other people. A person's colleagues might find out for the first time that he or she had done a degree.

1455.

Mr Beggs: If one is submitting a piece, can one send a photograph with it? Local papers always like a photograph to go with the story.

1456.

Dr Hamilton: Yes. A representative of the local PR company used to attend degree ceremonies. Now a representative from the OU attends. The representative contacts students beforehand to say that he or she would like to write a piece on their achievement.

1457.

Mr Beggs: It is definitely a good local news story. The PR approach probably needs to be reviewed.

1458.

Dr Hamilton: Mr Byrne asked about investment in new materials. This figure surprises people and I usually quote it when there are complaints about our fees - particularly from non-UK students. To produce a 60 or a 30-point course costs the university on average £2 million. That is why the Open University must deliver fairly high registration. Once that has been invested, marginal costs cover print and distribution and tutor support. However, the initial investment in any one course is on average £2 million.

1459.

Mr Beggs: Does that cover the design and production of the course and the staff to ensure its viability?

1460.

Dr Hamilton: Yes. We produce courses - and it always amazes me that they are so good - by committee, with all due respect to present company. We have a course team, individual members of which are responsible for writing parts of the course. Sometimes we use external consultants to write the material, which is then rewritten into a restructured teaching mode.

1461.

Once the academics have put the course together, editors make it look more like an OU publication before the designers add pictures and illustrations. It is then printed and distributed through the postal service; multimedia aids, television programmes and software must be produced and videos must be delivered. That gives you an idea of why it costs so much, and I think that is the reason for our quality.

1462.

The Chairperson: Are there additional costs for hypertext when the course is online?

1463.

Dr Hamilton: Yes. It improves accessibility; and one of our courses is delivered completely online. Many of our courses are available online and in text, but producing in two separate mediums increases production costs.

1464.

We are doing a great deal of research into the pedagogy of teaching online. The vice-chancellor recently persuaded the university's council - we have a council, a senate and a vice-chancellor just like other universities - to take £12 million out of our reserves specifically to research and develop online teaching.

1465.

The Chairperson: I know. Thank you for coming. We found this fascinating, Dr Hamilton, Mrs Carlisle and Mr Sloan. We will consider your evidence carefully. Your written submission shows that you are working in an area which is of central importance to the inquiry, so we are very pleased to have heard your evidence. We are also pleased that the precedent has been set, as you said at the start, of recognising the Open University as the third university in the Province alongside the two traditional ones. They will make presentations later. You have got in ahead of them as well, you may note. Thank you very much; we wish you well.

1466.

Dr Hamilton: Thank you, Chairman, and we thank the Committee for its attention and for its very interesting questions. It was not as formidable as we had feared.

top
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 1 February 2001

Members present:
Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Beggs
Mr Byrne
Mrs Carson
Mr Dallat
Mr R Hutchinson
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:
Prof G McKenna )
Prof R Barnett ) University of Ulster
Prof J Hughes )
Prof T Scott )

1467.

The Chairperson: Good afternoon. On behalf of the Committee, it is my pleasure to welcome you, and we are grateful that you have made the time to attend. Thank you for the written submission that you provided. This session is part of our inquiry on the impact of the training system in Northern Ireland. Would you like to start by making a short presentation or speaking to your submission?

1468.

Prof McKenna: Thank you. We are delighted to contribute to this particular debate in whatever way we can.

1469.

There is a strong recognition of the importance of higher education in the knowledge-driven economy in taking forward the economic, social and cultural development of any particular region, not just within Northern Ireland, but globally. In the past year we have published a vision and strategy document, which we will leave with you, that outlines how we see ourselves as an outstanding model of a regional university with a national and international reputation for quality. We would argue that in order to fulfil our regional mission we need to maintain that reputation.

1470.

We are committed to widening participation and access to maximise the opportunities of the Northern Ireland workforce and population and to benefit the region as fully as possible. We have, as you know, very strong relationships with all 17 of the further education colleges in Northern Ireland and the agricultural colleges. We have some 4,000 students on franchise programmes with those colleges, which we believe is very important in meeting the skills needs of Northern Ireland. We are also major players in access courses and, in terms of widening participation for individuals from lower socio-economic groups 4 and 5, we are top of the league table in the United Kingdom. We are proud of that, although we recognise that more needs to be done in Northern Ireland.

1471.

We are working very closely with the further education sector in the development of foundation degrees, which we believe will be important in meeting skills shortages in Northern Ireland, and we are working closely with employers. We are enthusiastic supporters of foundation degrees as we hope that you also would be.

1472.

I want to draw your attention to one or two other features of our provision and where we are going. We have a very strong involvement in work-based learning, and at any one time we have over 3,000 students on placement in industry or within the professions. That is a very important part of our provision, and it is also important in ensuring that our graduates are ready to meet the demands of the workplace. That is reflected in the very high employment rate of our graduates.

1473.

We also recognise, in the context of Northern Ireland and its geographical dispersion of population, that higher education needs to become available throughout the Province in various ways. Not only are we active in our involvement with the further education sector but we are also very proactive in the development of electronic-based learning. In fact, I would argue that we are one of the leading universities on these islands in that development, and we have established our own company, University of Ulster Online, to take that forward. That will be particularly important in a region like Northern Ireland in ensuring that there is access at home and in the workplace to higher education in a way that has not been available before.

1474.

In relation to some of the areas where economic development is going to be particularly important and where Northern Ireland has to play its role in the world market place, we have the largest provision of information technology and computing training on these islands. That is an area that we are expanding rapidly. In our course provision, we are supporting a number of the wealth-creating sectors - information technology, biotechnology, life and health technology, engineering, tourism, and hospitality. When planning for the future, the university does not simply look and say, "What have we been doing?" We actually ask ourselves "What are the global trends? What are the future demands? How should Northern Ireland be positioning itself with input from employers and others?" So, we have been very proactive.

1475.

We have also been very supportive of small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) through things like the teaching company scheme, where we are always in the top three in the United Kingdom in terms of participation, continual professional development, and involvement with manufacturing technology partnership, which brings access to university facilities and expertise to SMEs.

1476.

We have major research strengths. We had a meeting this morning with the Higher Education Funding Council for England who were speaking with some amazement about how the University of Ulster had developed over the last 14 to 15 years, particularly in the research area, and they were commending us for that. We are translating that into new company start-ups. Twelve new companies have spun out from the university in the last 18 months.

1477.

We are very active in our science park development at Coleraine and at Magee College, and we want to expand that further. We are major players in the Belfast science park development. We now have incubators on both our Coleraine and Magee campuses to nurture those spin-outs, and we are going to develop the same at Jordanstown.

1478.

We are being very proactive in developing an entrepreneurial spirit with our undergraduates. We have established the Northern Ireland Centre for Entrepreneurship in partnership with Queen's University. As far as the University of Ulster is concerned, we will be including entrepreneurship as a compulsory component within our undergraduate programmes of science, engineering and information technology (IT) in the current year, and we intend to develop that further into the arts and social sciences in future years.

1479.

That is all I wanted to say about the University of Ulster's background and approach to meeting the skills shortages in some areas of Northern Ireland.

1480.

The Chairperson: Thank you, that was very comprehensive.

1481.

Mr Byrne: I welcome the panel from the University of Ulster, and I would like to congratulate them on their contribution to the economic development of Northern Ireland over the past 10 years. I particularly welcome the fact that they have gone outside the cloisters of the university campus, which is necessary.

1482.

On the research aspects, I am aware of the new company's approach to their incubator system. How does the vice chancellor feel that can be enhanced upon? How can it contribute towards the development of SMEs throughout Northern Ireland? Also, how difficult is it now to place students on the one-year-out sandwich part of the course? Is the onus on the college or on the student to find the place?

1483.

Prof McKenna: My colleagues may also want to comment on that. We have been very proactive. We cannot rely entirely on inward investment to solve the economic ailments of Northern Ireland, important though that is. We support inward investment in every way we can, and we work quite closely with the Industrial Development Board (IDB). We have also concluded that the knowledge base in the universities must be brought to bear for the economic benefit of the region.

1484.

In 1997 we decided, in terms of our career progression and awards for academics, to give equal status to technology and knowledge transfer relative to the more traditional academic activities for career advancement, and that has had some effect. We have also taken the view that it is perfectly legitimate for academics to have some stakehold in companies which they spin out, but there is never enough money for this. At present we are seeking ways of generating our own additional venture capital for early start-up companies to nurture and support them. That is particularly important.

1485.

If we look at the phenomenon of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Route 128 in Massachusetts, and the tremendous role that that university played in economic development, under the surface you will find that most of the new companies are not started by academics, but they are started by graduates. Therefore, we have taken the step of ensuring that an entrepreneurial spirit is instilled in our undergraduates. Although it will not be a perfect outcome, and there will be people who will not wish to go in that direction, nonetheless we must do a lot more.

1486.

We have been working very closely with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment (DHFETE) and linking that with our contacts in the Industrial Research and Technology Unit (IRTU). Robson Davison from DHFETE and Jim Wolstencroft, the chief executive of IRTU, joined us on a recent trip to the United States. We looked at what was happening in Georgia and North Carolina, which are areas where we have particular linkages, and that was very beneficial for them. That kind of joined-up thinking is possible.

1487.

Prof Hughes: As the vice chancellor says, we have two very successful on-campus incubators - one at Coleraine in biotechnology and one at Magee College focusing on technology and software. They have both been particularly successful. Recently we started an e-business incubator which is a joint venture with ICL in West Belfast on the proposed Springvale campus. An important element is that those incubators are not populated just by spin-out companies from the university, but by spin-ins who are entrepreneurial individuals in the community. That happened in Derry with the software incubator and in Belfast with the e-business incubator.

1488.

Entrepreneurs have approached the university about access to expertise in helping them start their business. We have also formed joint ventures. That contributes to the notion of developing an indigenous high technology industry here and not relying on inward investment.

1489.

Prof Barnett: At any time, the University of Ulster has about 3,000 students out on work placements, and that is quite a challenge. The university has, in its careers service, a centre for work-based learning. It is a dedicated service that liaises with employers. As the university talks to firms about employing graduates, we offer the opportunities for work-based learning at the same time, and that all dovetails in.

1490.

It is the university's responsibility to find placements for students. However the university is content if a student finds their own placement so long as it is of good quality and meets the objective of the learning experience.

1491.

The university's main objective is that the placements are of good quality and that they achieve the work-based learning objectives, because placements are assessed as part of the degree, higher national diploma (HND) or the foundation course.

1492.

Different business sectors vary. The more forward-looking sectors recognise that having a student on placement can work to their advantage - that is why the university uses the year-long placements. Firms do not want students on short placements for by the time the student is trained they are ready to leave. Longer placements are more advantageous, and we will have to look at that as foundation degrees develop. Very short placements are not beneficial.

1493.

Forward-looking firms also realise that they can get something out of the placements. In the area of IT, many students come back from a placement with a job offer. Therefore it is beneficial for the student and the firms because the firms have a year to look at a student. There are various sectors that treat placements as cheap labour, and that needs to be addressed.

1494.

There is also an increase in the demand for placements overseas, and the university helps arrange those. They are important in widening the horizons of students.

1495.

Prof McKenna: Prof Scott would like to say something about support for new companies off-campus and incubation.

1496.

Prof Scott: One concept of the incubation requirement is that it not only provides a support in the start-up company but it also provides access to a range of other supports such as longer term access to finance, seed funding, venture capital and business angels. One of our incubators had a partner showcase and networking event. To those type of events we would invite individuals that are not on the campus. We are working towards developing a network, a hub-and-spoke-type relationship, with the Omagh College of Further Education, Fermanagh College of Further Education and colleges in Dungannon, Newry and Ballymena. As we have the required expertise and the level of investment funding, we must provide introductions.

1497.

Therefore an individual would not be disadvantaged if they are not on the campus because they do have access to the facilities. It is particularly important that start-up companies have access to the testing and technology environment. Equally important is the access to finance. We find that an introduction to the business and investment funds is particularly beneficial.

1498.

Mrs Carson: Page 2 of your submission states that local employers do not provide mechanisms to develop and enhance graduates' skills. It also states that the majority of graduates recorded a low level of utilisation of their skills. It is said that few employers have a training policy and the identification of training needs and that their implementation is largely left to the employers. Most industries and businesses have a training person on staff to look after training needs.

1499.

If you see those as failings, how can you address them? If you think incentives should be put in place to encourage more training in establishments in the private sector and in industry, how do you see that progressing?

1500.

Prof McKenna: That refers to a study produced recently, and it was the view of graduates employed in industry. The reality is that the larger the enterprise, the more likely they are to have a training policy with people in place. Some of the smaller employers do not have that resource for a variety of reasons. The same employers do not always see the value of research and development in relation to future development and are living hand-to-mouth, which brings its own difficulties. We would argue that tax credits, et cetera, should be in place to support training because there are SMEs which, if they do not move forward with the times and face the global challenges, may not exist in the future.

1501.

Prof Hughes: The software industry in Northern Ireland is largely SME-based with the exception of the big inward investors. The problem these SMEs face is that they have to move quickly to keep their heads above water, and they do not have time to invest in long-term training. We are offering them easier routes to training through continuous professional development, easier access to the university's programmes, and accredited workplace learning, rather than the employees having to take time off to come to the university campus to do a master's degree, or whatever. We integrate the training programme with the professional work they are undertaking, and that can be a major attraction, in particular to the high-technology industry.

1502.

Prof Barnett: In the survey, three quarters of the graduates were from the SME sector and there is an issue there for policy. The research and development factor for the SME sector is high risk, because they are not able to spread their risks. Training represents a high fixed cost in relation to putting the training programme in place for what is obviously quite a small number of employees, given the dominance of SMEs.

1503.

Mr Dallat: I am sure that the rest of the Committee will join me in wishing Prof McKenna all the best for tomorrow. He will now be allowed to graze his sheep in Coleraine town centre. It is quite a recognition for the university. My apologies for embarrassing you.

1504.

Clearly the success of the university is something to do with partnerships with outside bodies like local councils. The Committee would want to know how critical and important that has been in achieving success to date. Also, how will the university continue to protect the interests of graduates outside IT and biotechnology, et cetera, and still have the status that they had perhaps in the old days? In other words, will those students coming through the traditional arts and humanities faculties be treated as equal?

1505.

Prof McKenna: Thank you for your opening kind comments, Mr Dallat.

1506.

Partnership is everything in economic, social and cultural development in Northern Ireland and elsewhere. Universities cannot operate in isolation; they must operate as part of the community in which they are based. The University of Ulster takes its title very seriously and sees itself as having responsibility to all parts of Northern Ireland and beyond. Partnerships are crucial and it is important when one looks at success stories elsewhere in the world where there have been economic miracles. Examples are the states of Georgia and North Carolina in the United States, where there has been tremendous economic development. Not only are their universities strong, but there is a common vision between the universities, industry and the state in relation to how to go forward on a variety of fronts.

1507.

Things can happen when shared vision and leadership are there. I often contrast why things happen in North Carolina but not in South Carolina. They happen because there is clearer leadership and vision at state level in one state than in the other. Partnership is everything.

1508.

As for graduates in disciplines other than those which are viewed as being at the heart of wealth creation, we obviously value all our graduates equally. It is important for a range of disciplines to be available in any region. It is a hallmark of a civilised society. However, we are obliged to investigate the way that arts graduates are prepared for the world of work. For example, while I said that entrepreneurship was being introduced to informatics, science and engineering this year, it is our intention to extend that to social sciences and humanities in the future.

1509.

There is an important area of wealth creation in the creative industries which needs to be developed. We believe that our school of art and design and some of our other activities, such as music technology, will play an important role in that. It is my strong opinion that our faculty of arts, for example, must see itself as being at the centre of cultural development in Northern Ireland. It should not be on the sidelines or just commenting on it. It should be working with local communities to show that the arts are relevant. We need to ensure that in every degree there are transferable skills which are extremely valuable, irrespective of the particular career that a graduate decides to follow.

1510.

Ms McWilliams: Once again, I must declare a conflict of interest. I am on a leave of absence from the university and, depending upon the voters, it may be my future employer again. I have to be nice to the witnesses.

1511.

I commend you for the in-depth manner in which you helped the Committee answer these questions about skills shortages and where some of the problems lie. I also commend you, Prof Scott, for addressing, as the Committee has been doing, the issue of extending some work-based placements beyond the areas of science, engineering and technology, because if we want an entrepreneurial spirit it will probably have to be right across the board.

1512.

After reading the submission, I am somewhat concerned that you want partnership to start with the schools, so that students think along those lines before going to university. You are clearly pointing to some change in subject choice as the cause of skills shortages in certain areas. Obviously, credit accumulation cannot affect that in the same way that it did in work-based learning, et cetera. How much outreach are the universities, particularly the University of Ulster, engaged in with regard to student awareness of where industry and business is going?

1513.

The Chairman and I recently attended the launch of a Dublin-based company, CardBASE Technologies, in my constituency in Belfast. We were pleased that they brought highly skilled jobs. To what extent does the IDB involve the universities? I note that IT is highlighted as an area in which we can become very attractive in the future. We obviously want to look at that, because IT offers much higher paid jobs in comparison to the call centres which we seem to be attracting. Are you in there from the beginning?

1514.

You also raised the issue of seeking more Government support. That always sounds as if it means more money, but could it be support in kind? What forms could that take?

1515.

Prof McKenna: We must ensure that there is an awareness in schools of where the global economy is going and how young people will need to prepare themselves for that.

1516.

We do our best, visiting lots of schools and talking to head teachers about where things are going. Unfortunately, there are pockets and areas in Northern Ireland where there is real underperformance in people getting to university. That applies particularly to science-based subjects. The majority of access programmes have led people to go into the arts and social sciences, rather than the sciences.

1517.

We have the 'Step Up' programme running in Derry, which is targeting schools in disadvantaged areas, encouraging and working with those schools to improve their science base and the capabilities of their pupils. A successful outcome would be more children doing science-based programmes at university. If that programme is successful, and the Higher Education Funding Council for England has cited it as a model of best practice, then it would seem appropriate that, working with our partners in FE, it should be extended throughout Northern Ireland. There are areas throughout Northern Ireland where there is underperformance, particularly among young males, and this needs to be addressed.

1518.

However, it is not just the universities, the schools have to be on board as well. There are real skills shortages, and in addition to universities thinking about where the skills shortages are and will be in the future, our FE partners need to be on board too. We are very supportive of the new foundation degrees, and we will be pushing them very strongly in those areas with existing and future skills shortages. Universities have to judge where things are going to be in the future and base planning on that, rather than be saying "This is the skills base of the staff we have, so these are the only programmes we can offer." We encourage our FE partners to move in that direction as well, and work with them on staff development so that they can meet that particular demand.

1519.

On inward investment, we work closely with IDB, and that liaison and association has improved greatly in the last couple of years. This has been greatly supported by the development of a regional development office under Prof Scott, but also through our involvement with the science park development. Our chief executive of the science park meets regularly with IDB and we are now becoming involved at an earlier stage in the process. We need to be given some indication whether this is a long shot or a real possibility, in which case we will pull out the stops more.

1520.

The dean of science, some others and myself are going to Florida this month to try and attract an inward investment company in the 'life and health' technology sector. We do this quite regularly - if there is a real prospect, we will be there.

1521.

Prof Barnett: With regards to the 'Step Up' programme in science, an unexpected side effect, which does relate to your question, is the involvement of industry. They have co-funded what we are doing, along with arranging industrial visits. Many of the children from working class areas are not clear what scientists do. It is not just a matter of getting them to take up science at school, and then we get them in lower sixth. During that year we get them out into industry, linking visits into the teaching. This has proved to be one of the most positive aspects of the programme.

1522.

Adding to what Prof McKenna said about the foundation degrees, it does actually link with inward investment and the discussions we have been having with the colleges. Hence, we can be very responsive. This is not a national qualification; it is a regional qualification that can be tailored towards local inward investment needs. When firms are discussing inward investment, we can work with the college in putting on the relevant skills training at the higher professional/ associate professional technical level, to aid the inward investment rather than being sluggish as perhaps we were in the past.

1523.

Ms McWilliams: There was also an issue about Government support.

1524.

Prof McKenna: Government support can be also geared around our having an open arrangement with them, so that we are aware of what each other is thinking. From our point of view, there is also the opportunity for inward investors to think about investing in the university, in their own interest. An example would be endowing chairs or putting more resources into a particular area which will benefit their sector. The closer our relationship with the Government, at an early stage in these developments, the better. There have been some examples where that has happened.

1525.

Ms McWilliams: Do you have many endowed chairs?

1526.

Prof McKenna: No we have about three.

1527.

Prof Scott: I would like to add to the comment made about support from the Government. We are currently developing structures for the new economic development agency. We have been trying to open dialogue on the type of arrangements and framework for communication that there might be between the universities and the new agency. We currently interact in several ways, as the vice-chancellor has said, in the area of inward investment and start-up companies. Both universities have moved into this new area, and we are taking the lead in entrepreneurship training. We are particularly keen to ensure that the new agency embraces its responsibility in this area. It is possible that a client executive from the agency could be placed in the university to support the training. This would ensure that a better quality of business plan emerges from the student body. There is a huge staff development issue in relation to entrepreneurship training. As we roll out entrepreneurship training, we need to train the trainers. We have been discussing with the agency how it can facilitate and support that training. This will be done in partnership with the agency as we have a shared vision.

1528.

The Chairperson: You mentioned the entrepreneurial aspect of education, and I think that the vice-chancellor said it is compulsory. Who teaches the entrepreneurship? Is it the lecturers in normal subjects or is it done by discrete educators in entrepreneurship?

1529.

Prof McKenna: It is a mixture of the two. We have a large business and management faculty, which we can access in various ways. In addition, some of our academics in engineering, science and informatics are extremely entrepreneurial, having been involved in patenting and licensing intellectual property and so forth. We are also currently recruiting a number of role models from outside the university, some of whom will come from the United States. It is hoped that they will be seen as the kind of role models that young undergraduates will aspire to emulate. It is a mixture of all those factors.

1530.

Prof Scott: The Centre for Entrepreneurship was established as a result of a competitive bid to the Science Enterprise Challenge. That is why we will be rolling out a programme with an initial focus on engineering, computing and science. We are discussing with the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure how we can support the implementation of entrepreneurship, citizenship and social entrepreneurship to the other disciplines.

1531.

I pointed out that the teaching element is a challenge, involving students in science, engineering and computing. Certain generic aspects can be delivered from our faculty of business and management. The University of Ulster has the advantage of having a well-established business and management faculty. However, if the project is to be sustained, it is important that the disciplines have ownership of their subject areas. We are very keen to ensure that there must also be role models in the disciplines. For example, if you are talking about food science, there must be a food scientist present to teach, or software engineer, or an environmental scientist, or whatever, depending on the discipline. It is important in that it is a rolling process. Our first programme is beginning next week, and LEDU is working with us on that. The Queen's University programme will begin later this year.

1532.

Mr Beggs: I welcome you all. I enjoyed the visit to Magee College, when we met some of you. There has been considerable expansion in higher education over the last number of years, further expansion is planned to reflect the needs of the economy and to fill shortages. Will you give us some background as to the mechanisms that the university and the Department use to determine where new higher education places will be?

1533.

Are you satisfied with the mechanism for deciding where they are established? Is the system responsive enough? Is there too much of a time lag? Is supply meeting demand? Other witnesses have addressed the issue of careers guidance. Is there a useful careers guidance service for students leaving university and for school leavers? I value the sandwich course system which you have. I took a year out before going to another university in Northern Ireland.

1534.

Does careers guidance sufficiently cover non-academic subjects and practical experience? The universities have noted a marked decline in the number of students studying A level maths and physics. As a result there have been gaps in subjects such as engineering and computer studies.

1535.

What has the university done to address this problem? I realise that its causes lie in the secondary not the tertiary level of education, but have you worked with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment, and with schools to make people aware of the opportunities in industry with these subjects? How can this weakness be corrected?

1536.

Prof McKenna: I will try to answer those three very easy questions. [Laughter]. Some 15,000 Northern Ireland students are studying outside Northern Ireland at any time. There should, of course, be no bar on students going to study wherever they want. However, our evidence suggests that about half of those who leave do so reluctantly. They leave because they cannot get into either of Northern Ireland's universities. By and large they do not return. That is a severe economic drain on Northern Ireland - no region can afford such a loss of talent, and the spending power that leaves with it.

1537.

We have a very clear central planning process in the university, which we go through every year but which we also have on a 10-year plan. The university is looking at a 10-year horizon. Looking at global trends to find out if we are offering programmes which might already be out of date is part of the planning process. We have been fairly ruthless in getting rid of programmes which we have found to be obsolete. We also have regular dialogue with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment's officials to discuss future plans. We never get the response we would like, as they have to argue their case with the Department of Finance and Personnel for additional numbers. We have been disappointed in the current year's increase in student numbers.

1538.

It is a centrally planned process; we do not simply rely on bottom-up. Of course, in the university we have to hold dialogue with other faculties to discuss other possibilities. We are always looking towards where we believe demand will be in the future to see how we will deal with it. That informs our discussions with the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment. In recent years we have sent virtually all the additional students which the university has received to the north-west, because we felt that that was important to Northern Ireland. We seek to expand our numbers there as much as we can.

1539.

In terms of university guidance, I think we would be reasonably happy - although we are never totally happy -that our careers service does give adequate guidance to our students when they are with us. That is reflected in our very high employment rates, and in the courses we offer. The placement year, to which you referred, is very important. We would be a bit more concerned about careers guidance at the school level, and the choices which some young people make. Those do not always seem to us to be based on good information. Some of the places they go to and some of the programmes they do seem a little odd, and I wonder about that. The careers service needs to be aware of new technologies and of where things are going. It is, however, very difficult because if you introduce a programme with a new title in Northern Ireland it will almost certainly get no applications, or very few. We therefore have a job to try and sell those to schools. We do our best, but it can take time to build up. There is room for careers teachers, perhaps, to be a bit better informed than they are.

1540.

As regards the decline in demand for maths and physics, there are two problems. One is that there has been something of a decline in the number of students studying maths and physics at A level. The other difficulty is that very often, having studied those subjects, they do not subsequently go into science and engineering. They go off and do other things at university. We have been talking to the Nuffield Foundation about some programmes which have been pioneered in England, particularly in association with the University of York, which look at a more practically oriented physics and science A level curriculum. That seems to be working, and we are going to see if there are ways in which they might be introduced in Northern Ireland. In other words, how do we make physics and mathematics exciting? They are extremely exciting subjects, but somehow we have managed to put students off them, for whatever reason. We are looking at that, and we will have to be much more innovative as a region in encouraging and making our kids interested in these subjects.

1541.

Prof Hughes: To reinforce the last point, one of the ways we have tackled the maths and physics deficiencies in our engineering and IT programmes is to integrate the mathematics teaching with the teaching of the subject. The students then see the relevance of the mathematics, which is taught in parallel with the engineering or IT subject. That has led to some significant successes over the last few years in the university.

1542.

Mr Beggs: With regard to schools careers guidance, you are widely travelled. From your international experience, are you aware of any other models of a more responsive careers guidance service having been established, so that more up-to-date and current advice can be given to students on all the available options?

1543.

Prof McKenna: I have noticed, for example, that students in the Irish Republic seem to be much more likely to take on new disciplines and interdisciplinary programmes than is the case in Northern Ireland. That may, however, be a reflection of the Leaving Certificate versus the A level situation. We, as a university, would argue that A level preparation is much too narrow, that people have to specialise far too early, and that a broader-based curriculum up to 18 would be beneficial. Given the fact that many of the new technologies are interdisciplinary, you need to combine. The days of chemistry on its own are over. It is now biology, chemistry, physics - all integrated in various ways. Giving up languages, or aspects of humanities, at 16 to concentrate solely on science is not desirable. Whereas 20 years ago most universities would have argued strongly for retaining the A level system, I think that the bulk of universities would currently argue for a much broader system post-16.

1544.

Mr Byrne: I am not a scientist, but I agree with the vice-chancellor on the issue of the broader curriculum at 18, rather than three or four subjects at A level.

1545.

With regard to the decline in the numbers of students going into science, I am told by grammar school science teachers that double-award science - which was introduced at GCSE level some years ago - has had a detrimental effect on preparing people for individual science disciplines at A level.

1546.

In relation to maths, in the past many schools offered GCSE additional maths to some pupils, which helped them to prepare for A level maths, as well as for physics.

1547.

Would the vice-chancellor like to comment on that?

1548.

Prof McKenna: It seems to be that to follow a science-based career, students really need to do triple-award science at GCSE level. I am concerned that straight GCSE maths is not a sufficient basis for any subject that has any significant mathematical requirements at university level. My colleagues might disagree with that, but it does seem to be a fairly widespread view.

1549.

Ms McWilliams: Are those responsible for curriculum development hearing this from you? How much overlap is there between you and them?

1550.

Prof Barnett: We do discuss matters with them. There may be some opportunities now as the AS levels develop. One example of combining technology and design, linking creative industry with manufacturing, is our very popular degree in design and technology. It took some years to get going. There was an A level in that area but the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) announced that it was stopping it. That was one of the things that combined design with technology. The vice-chancellor wrote to the chief executive and I understand that the CCEA is going to keep the current curriculum and revise the subject later. I am not sure how the decision was made, but the kind of student we want is one who can combine creativity with technical knowledge.

1551.

Ms McWilliams: I made this point before, when I visited Magee College and saw the huge numbers of students there. I explained that my son was deciding about taking computer studies, so I took home the syllabus. It was the most boring thing I ever read in my life, and I wondered how any child could be expected to do it? Then I discovered that the English teacher had been given responsibility for teaching it. At the school meeting, I asked him how he learned the subject. He said that he had to go and read a manual. There was no training and no personal development. Those responsible for curriculum development have probably not looked at that syllabus for 10 years. It is all about the hardware of a computer. There are clearly some problems regarding subject choice.

1552.

Prof Hughes: There is a problem with teacher training in computing, mathematics, physics and other subjects. How many graduates from those disciplines go into school teaching? The number has plummeted in recent years and the teaching of these subjects tends to be handed to other teachers.

1553.

Ms McWilliams: That is right.

1554.

Prof Scott: The other thing is that there has not been teacher support for those interested in professional development. We had an MSc in education technology, but once teacher support was withdrawn the numbers immediately plummeted and the course became unviable. We have just rolled out a programme with further education colleges in which we do a linked award with a postgraduate diploma and master's degree in three different centres. At the same time, the Department has withdrawn support for the professional development of teachers.

1555.

Additionally, there is a need to encourage staff in the secondary sector, as well as students in the higher education sector, to engage in some period of work placement.

1556.

The Chairperson: That is a good point.

1557.

Mrs Nelis: I commend you on the way that the university has facilitated a return to study. Your record on mature students is excellent, particularly those in the 'Step Up' programme. It is addressing the needs of a particular generation that could not avail of second, or third, level education and which now represents your best students.

1558.

I represent the Foyle constituency, and I know Prof Scott quite well. She does excellent research and incubator work. The latest statistics tell me that my constituency has double the Northern Ireland average level of unemployment.

1559.

Recently, I wrote to Halifax plc, following the announcement that it was locating its call-centre jobs in Belfast. I asked why it had chosen Belfast rather than Foyle? The Halifax responded with a list of reasons. Those reasons were mostly to do with infrastructure, but another factor was the shortage of skills. From reading your presentation, it appears that 30% of our graduates go to the Republic of Ireland. Is that part of the skills shortage? Is there a better incentive attracting them there? How can we retain our graduates? Are we not providing the pre-employment incentives to keep them here? Furthermore, are we not marketing ourselves enough?

1560.

What support do you need from the Government? Of course, you need financial support, but is support needed in curriculum development or other areas? The acute shortages in engineering has been mentioned. There is a demand for engineering graduates because of that shortage How can we address that?

1561.

Prof McKenna: A significant proportion of our graduates do go to the Irish Republic. The reason for that is because there are jobs for them there with higher salaries than they can attract in Northern Ireland. In one sense, that is a problem. In another sense, it represents an opportunity. For example, one of the key factors in inward investment is the supply of well-skilled individuals. We are increasing rapidly, at every opportunity, our numbers in computing, information technology and engineering - all those areas where there is demand, or where there will be demand in the future. Obviously, that is not something that the university can do on its own. The university must work together with the Government and the local communities on this. That will ensure that a particular area, city or region is marketed effectively. We have actively supported inward investment in every way possible, by way of our incubators and start-up companies.

1562.

Some companies in the Irish Republic are now considering moving to the North because of the skill shortages which they are now encountering in the Republic, in what is essentially a full employment situation. They will move close to where graduates are being produced. Inevitably, therefore, there will be some benefit from the Celtic tiger, and that is beginning to be seen in Northern Ireland.

1563.

We are increasing our numbers in engineering and informatics. In comparison to the trends in Great Britain, we have an increase in demand for our engineering programmes in Northern Ireland. That is extremely comforting. The same applies to information technology. Furthermore, completely against the trends in GB and the Irish Republic, about 40% of our undergraduates are female in areas such as computing and information technology. That is very positive. However, it is a difficult matter that you raise, and we must work closely with others. In those areas where there is significant economic, high-technology based activity you find a partnership involving the Government, universities, industry and the community working together. We have had more dialogue with the Government and with politicians in the last year than we had in the past 20 years. The fact that we are present today is an indication of the change.

1564.

Mrs Nelis: Have the changes in student finance affected access?

1565.

Prof McKenna: The changes in student finance relate to the introduction of loans and the payment of fees. Some 60% of our students do not pay fees, because they come from socio-economic backgrounds that do not require them to pay fees.

1566.

Inevitably, there is increased pressure, particularly because of the loan situation, on people from disadvantaged lower socio-economic groups, and they may be deterred from going to university. There is an issue there that to some extent is being addressed by the recent package. We encourage funding being targeted towards those groups that are most in need of it. It is an even bigger problem for those who have to leave Northern Ireland in an economic situation where they have to take out loans. They would actually be able to stay at home more cheaply - and even live at home - while going to university if there were places available for them, but there are not.

1567.

Prof Scott: I want to comment on Mrs Nelis's point about the Halifax. Obviously infrastructure is always going to be a big deciding factor, but the types of job involved in the call centre mostly relate to students coming out of the further education sector. As the vice-chancellor and Prof Barnett have said the university works very closely with each of the further education colleges. We are doing that in cognisance of the outcome of the skills task force, so that we do not start a programme where there is just a notion that there might be provision or demand.

1568.

As well as having a business plan for each potential programme, we look very closely at the support and sponsorship that would be available from within that particular area. So, for example, if we are looking at a programme in Dungannon or Omagh, we look at the employment opportunities. In each of the programmes, before the approval process, we engage with representatives of the constituent group of potential employers from the locality.

1569.

In relation to graduates going across the border, you cannot compete with the companies that are providing a "golden hello" of up to £3,000 as an introduction. In the cross-border areas, work is ongoing on a number of innovative programmes - for instance, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Derry are working with Sligo, Donegal and Leitrim - to try to ensure that the north-west region has the infrastructure to support entrepreneurs who emerge from the tertiary sector, and also to attract back entrepreneurs who have left the area.

1570.

Prof Barnett: Another programme that we introduced at Magee recently and that has expanded massively over the last few years - there are over 100 students doing it now - is the intensive conversion programme in computing at master's level for humanities students. A pattern is emerging. Students who do a humanities course do something that they are interested in and want to do. The universities then find that the students will pay for themselves to do an intensive one-year master's course in computing because it is a very good investment for them. It is offered at Magee and has almost 100 full-time students and lots of part-time students as well. That is a course that is responsive and provides a skills base for people.

1571.

Prof Hughes: I would like to return to the issue of our losing so many of our high-tech graduates to the South. When I was dean of informatics, I looked into this quite closely. A key issue is the quality of the job. These days, high-tech graduates coming out of engineering and computing want to work with the latest technology, with wireless application protocol (WAP) phones and telecommunications, and so on. Therefore they go to firms such as Eriksson, Microsoft and Intel, which are all down South. That is the reason and it reinforces the point, which was raised earlier, that we really need to develop quickly our indigenous high-technology industry because we cannot rely on inward investment in the same way, or to the same extent, as the South. It creates a very fragile economy if you are relying totally on companies that can up and go at 24 hours notice, as happened with Seagate a couple of years ago in Clonmel.

1572.

The Chairperson: Finally, I have two quick questions. As Monica McWilliams did, I declare an interest. For the record, I have leave of absence from "another place".

1573.

My first question is provoked by Joan Carson's earlier point. In your submission you referred to the perception of your graduates that they were being underutilised by employers. Some would argue - and this is not necessarily my view - that that is indicative, and that we have almost moved to a position of educating too high a proportion of the relevant cohort at the higher education level.

1574.

That view was put very strongly in a recent leader article in 'The Times', and various rather colourful examples were given about modules and subjects which may be perceived as lacking in rigour or economic application. I am sure that they do not relate to your university. That is one question, and it reflects a view which, as I have already said, I do not necessarily share.

1575.

The other question relates to the fact that in various parts of the UK, particularly in Scotland and the Midlands of England, notions of mergers of higher education institutions are in the air. There is a perception that there are too many institutions. Again, that is not necessarily my own view, but how do you see your co-operation with Queen's University developing in the future? How can our two universities -or three, if one includes the Open University - be configured for the best benefit of the Province as a whole?

1576.

Prof McKenna: I find it difficult to respond to the issue of there being too many graduates. I can imagine 'The Times' having that view. It probably feels that two universities would be enough for the whole of the UK. [Laughter] If one looks at high-tech, highly developed, progressive economies across the world, one will find a very high proportion of highly skilled people being produced. There is unanimity that that is important. Someone has said that a country never went bankrupt by over-educating its population.

1577.

That is not to say that there are not skills shortages below the level of graduate, and that is why we are addressing that issue with our foundation degrees and working with the further education sector. However, I do not think that any of us believe that the current Northern Ireland economy is the economy that we aspire to having. We want a much stronger economy and much more investment. That argues for having more, rather than less, graduates. The economy here is at an immature stage, and we all are aware of the reasons for that.

1578.

On mergers, Sir David Watson said last week that he thought that the average British university was too small to be competitive in the global economy. He cited the example of American state universities with an average of 31,000 students. The UK average is about 17,000. The Northern Ireland universities are slightly above the average in that respect. I do not necessarily think that you would have a more responsive system by having one monolithic institution as compared to having two strong institutions that complement each other in various ways.

1579.

There is a lot of co-operation between the two universities. For example, we are working very closely together on the science park development in Belfast. We have jointly approached the Universities Challenge Fund to bring money into Northern Ireland that would not otherwise have come. The Northern Ireland Centre for Entrepreneurship, which Prof Scott mentioned, is a joint venture. Other joint ventures are the teaching company scheme and the Science Shop. We pool resources and work together where it is appropriate.

1580.

By and large, our approach to many things is somewhat different, and I think that Northern Ireland is served better by that complementary balance. Our particular strengths - in the life and health sciences - are not matched at Queen's University. In our major strength of informatics we have much larger provision than Queen's, and our faculty of business management is also much larger. We have complementary institutions, and obviously there is a need for us to discuss various issues together. I can assure you that the vice-chancellors meet frequently, and we discuss our approach on various matters. That has been extremely beneficial. I think that we have the right level of co-operation. We are both complementary and rather different institutions. We ought to cherish that.

1581.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much. We appreciate that you have made time in your busy schedules to come along this afternoon. It has been very interesting, and we will carefully attend to what you have said orally and in your written submission. We may want to come back to you on this inquiry, or other related issues. We wish you well with your good work.

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