COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS: THURSDAY 27 JUNE 2002,
ROOM 152, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS

Present:
Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman)
Mr Mervyn Carrick MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Dr Ian Adamson MLA
Mr John Dallat MLA
Mr David Hilditch MLA
Mr Roger Hutchinson MLA

In Attendance:
Dr Andrew Peoples
Mr Colin Jones
Mr Paul Stitt

Apologies:
Mrs Joan Carson MLA
Mr Arthur Doherty MLA
Prof Monica McWilliams MLA
Mrs Mary Nelis MLA

The meeting opened at 2.16pm in open session.

1. Apologies

Apologies are detailed above.

2. Draft Minutes of 20 June 2002

Agreed. Proposed: Mr Dallat. Seconded: Mr Carrick.

2.18pm. Mr Hilditch joined the meeting.

3. Matters Arising

None.

4. Committee Responses

Members considered their draft response on the Report on the 'Review of Post-Primary Education' and agreed it for issue to the Committee for Education and the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL). Members noted the written brief from DEL on the possible implications of the Report for the Department. The Committee noted the response from, and issues raised by, the Committee for Education.

Action: Clerk

Members agreed a press release on this response for issue after the meeting.

Action: Clerk

Members considered and agreed as amended their response to the Committee for Finance and Personnel on the financial issues contained in the Executive's Position Report.

Action: Clerk

5. Committee Report

Members considered extracts from their draft Report on DEL's response to the forty three recommendations in the Committee's Inquiry into 'Education and Training for Industry.' Minor amendments were agreed and it was also agreed that the complete draft Report would be considered again at the next meeting. Members agreed to delay release until September 2002 and to submit a motion to debate the Report in the Assembly.

Action: Clerk

6. Correspondence

Members considered information from DEL on their bids for support from the third tranche of Executive Programme Funds. Members noted that the Committee for Finance and Personnel had advised that the deadline for submission was 10 June 2002, and that DEL's bids had therefore been received for the Committee's attention approximately two weeks after this deadline. Whilst members generally supported the bids, it was agreed to raise this lack of consultation with both the Minister for Employment and Learning and the Committee for Finance and Personnel.

Action: Clerk

Members considered a response from DEL to concerns on student welfare raised with the Committee by Ms U Molloy, and agreed to forward the response to Ms Molloy.

Action: Clerk

Mr Dallat raised concerns at the arrangements currently in place to ensure appropriate standards of student accommodation. The Chairman responded that this may be addressed in the Housing Bill, which would reach Committee Stage next week. The Clerk was directed to obtain copies of the Housing Bill for members' attention.

Action: Clerk

Members considered the Minister's response to concerns raised by the Committee at the current auditing arrangements in Further Education Colleges. Mr Dallat expressed his disappointment at the same firm being appointed, in several colleges, as both external auditors and as financial consultants to oversee recovery plans when these colleges experienced financial difficulties. He considered it to be part of the auditors' reporting function to flag up worrying financial trends.

It was agreed to write again to the Minister, seeking an assurance that such a situation would not be repeated.

Action: Clerk

Members considered and agreed to a request from Northern Ireland Assembly Research to publish several research papers requested by the Committee on both the intranet and the Assembly's website.

Action: Clerk

Members noted DEL's response on the apparent financial difficulties at Queen's University. The Chairman reported that he had been briefed by the Pro Vice-Chancellor on the financial situation at Queen's.

Members noted the following correspondence:

• Stranmillis University College's Operational Plan for 2001/02;
• a Committee Press Release on last week's speech by the Chairman to the Association of Northern Ireland Colleges' conference;
• a Committee Press Release on last week's bomb attack in Tate's Avenue; and
• recommendations from the Committee of the Centre's Inquiry into the 'Approach of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Devolved Government on European Union Issues.'

7. Briefing from Department for Employment and Learning officials on the Employment Bill

Mr R Gamble, Mr W Caldwell and Ms L Taylor from DEL, briefed the Committee on the Employment Bill. The following issues were debated with members:

• why existing foster carers who subsequently wished to adopt the foster child were excluded from the provisions;
• the monitoring arrangements in place to ensure that all criteria were satisfied;
• whether the same rights applied to children being adopted from abroad;
• the potentially adverse effects on employees remaining in the workplace;
• the compensation arrangements for small businesses;
• why the legislation covered 'employees' as opposed to 'workers,' and thus excluded key groups such as the self-employed;

Dr Birnie and Mr Carrick both declared an interest.

• whether the legislation should provide for leave to be extended in special circumstances;
• why there was a service requirement for paternity leave when no such requirement was in place for maternity leave;

3.20pm. Mr Hutchinson left the meeting.

• DEL's responsibility for issuing guidance to employers in relation to the provisions contained in the Bill;
• whether paternity pay was taxable;
• the arrangements in place to enforce compliance and the penalties for fraud;
• why carers for the elderly had been excluded from the arrangements for flexible working;
• the relative responsibilities of both employers and employees in relation to requests for flexible working;
• how tribunals would resolve cases involving requests for flexible working and how the costs of tribunals would be met;

4.05pm. Mr Hutchinson returned to the meeting.

• why flexible working requests should only be considered from parents with children under six years old;

4.10pm. Mr Hilditch left the meeting.

• why legislation on fixed-term work had been delayed from July 2002 to October 2002; and

4.18pm. Mr Hutchinson left the meeting. The meeting was inquorate; the Chairman suspended the oral evidence session and the meeting.

4.20pm. Mr Hutchinson returned to the meeting. The meeting resumed.

• whether the current title of the Bill accurately reflected its contents.

Officials stated that they would provide written answers to several areas raised during the briefing.

Members agreed the need for the Committee Stage to be completed on time if possible, given the amount of subordinate legislation to follow from the Employment Bill, which needed to be approved before the dissolution of the Assembly in March 2003.

4.22pm. Mr Hilditch returned to the meeting.

4.23pm. Dr Adamson left the meeting.

8. Chairman's Business

The Chairman updated members on the recent meeting of the Chairpersons' Liaison Group.

The Chairman informed members that both he and the Deputy Chairman were to meet with representatives from H J O'Boyle Training Ltd to discuss the subject area of keyskills.

The Chairman informed members that the Minister had requested a meeting with himself and the Deputy Chairman. Debate ensued as to the possible areas for discussion, which included the outcome of the proposed merger of the Northern Ireland Hotel and Catering College with the University of Ulster.

Mr Dallat asked for it to be minuted that he had asked that Mr Hutchinson withdraw his remarks made in relation to himself. The remarks were not withdrawn.

The Chairman drew members' attention to an article in the Sunday Mirror relating to the 'open/closed' status of Assembly Committee meetings and the fact that the Committee for Employment and Learning had the best record of openness.

9. Any Other Business

None

10. Date, Time and Place of Next Meeting

On Thursday 4 July 2002 at 2.00pm in Room 152 Parliament Buildings, to include evidence from the Equality Commission on the Employment Bill.

The Chairman adjourned the meeting at 4.32pm.

Dr Esmond Birnie MLA
Chairman, Committee for Employment and Learning
4 July 2002

20 June 2002 / Menu / 4 July 2002