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COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS: THURSDAY, 21 February 2002 Present: In Attendance: Apologies:
Meeting opened at 2.09pm in open session.
Agreed. Proposed: Mr Carrick. Seconded: Mr Beggs
There were no matters arising.
Members considered correspondence from the University of Ulster setting out the University's policy on the current and future intentions of the distribution of courses across the campuses. It was agreed that the Chairman should write to the University seeking further clarification and to request an update when the review is completed.
Action: Clerk Members noted that the responses on the Quinquennial Review of the Labour Relation Agency had now been received from the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL). Following debate it was agreed that the Clerk should produce a short paper for the Committee on possible options to deal with this matter.
Action: Clerk Members noted correspondence from DEL outlining the responsibility for the funding of medical students. Following debate it was agreed to acquire the duration and associated fees of undergraduate courses on offer in Northern Ireland.
Action: Clerk Members noted correspondence from DEL confirming that all relevant EC Directives had been implemented within the stipulated timescale. Members noted correspondence from the under-noted, requesting to appear before the Committee to inform members of the work undertaken by their organisations :-
It was agreed that the Chairman should write thanking the organisations and requesting a written brief. Further consideration will be given to this after Easter.
Action: Clerk
2.20pm Mr Hutchinson joined the meeting Members debated the proposed Terms of Reference for the Review of Public Administration received from the First Minister and Deputy First Minister. Following debate the Clerk was directed to prepare a draft response for consideration at next week's meeting.
Action: Clerk Members considered correspondence on the Review of the Northern Ireland Civil Service Response to Devolution and noted that the Chairman had been invited to meet the Review Team to discuss the Committee's view on the issue. After debate it was agreed that members should submit their views to the Committee Office within the next week. Members considered the proposed consultation document on Regional Transportation Strategy received from the Committee for Regional Development. After debate the Clerk was directed to prepare a draft response for further debate at a future meeting.
Action: Clerk
Members noted correspondence which set out the current number of providers in the Craigavon New Deal Consortium Partnership in comparison to the initial number of providers. Members were briefed by Mr R Watson, Managing Director, Haven Employment and Training Limited, Mr Derek Geddis, Joint Managing Director, Avondale Foods Limited, Mr John Thompson, General Manager, Hungry House Fine Sandwich Company and Mr Niall McGarry, Human Resources Manager, Moy Park Limited, on barriers to employment and New Deal. The following areas were the focus of questioning and debate:-
Mr Carrick declared a pecuniary interest with both Mr Watson, with whom he has community involvement, and Mr Geddis, with whom he has had former professional connections.
2.40pm Professor McWilliams joined the meeting.
3.10pm Mr Hutchinson left the meeting
3.35pm Mr Kelly left the meeting
The witnesses agreed to make a written response to the Committee in connection to the Committee's scrutiny of the work of the Taskforce on Employability and Long-Term Unemployment.
3.45pm Mr Dallat left the meeting. As the meeting went inquorate the Chairman suspended the meeting.. 3.47pm Mr Dallat returned to the meeting. The Chairman resumed the meeting. Following the briefing the Committee debated the key issues emerging and agreed that the Chairman should write to the Minister, requesting statistics on the number of European Union workers and non-European Union workers in Northern Ireland together with information on the remit of the Unit, within the Training and Employment Agency, which deals with work permits. It was also agreed that the Chairman should write to the Committee for Social Development requesting a briefing from officials in the Department for Social Development on benefits.
Action: Clerk A press release was approved for issue, as amended.
Action: Clerk
Members considered the Department for Employment and Learning's draft Business Plan for 2002-03. It was agreed that, in order to fully scrutinise this important document, the Clerk should write to DEL requesting an extension on the deadline for reply.
Action: Clerk Members considered a consultation document on draft Fixed Term Working Regulations received from DEL. It was agreed that a background briefing paper on the Fixed Term Working Regulations should be requested from Northern Ireland Assembly Research.
Action: Clerk Members noted correspondence from the Committee of the Centre extending the deadline for the Committee's response to the draft consultation document 'A framework for Developing Northern Ireland's participation in the European Union' to Wednesday 27 February 2002.
Members considered and agreed the Committee's response to the OFMDFM consultation document 'A Framework for Developing Northern Ireland's Participation in the European Union' (Annex 1).
Members noted correspondence from the Minister clarifying that it is not DEL's intention to implement proposed outcomes of the Taskforce on Employability and Long-Term Unemployment before these have been fully discussed with the Committee and with the Executive. This followed a recent Departmental press release referring to an early outcome of the Taskforce. Members considered correspondence from DEL on the financial management and accountability of Student Loans and the underspend in 2001-02. The net resource outturn for 2000/01 was £50,413,000 less than the final provision. The Department also expressed their underspend in 2000/01, in cash terms within the Departmental Expenditure Limited, this amounted to £17,800,000. Members noted correspondence from DEL on Fixed Term Contracts in connection with the Employment Bill currently progressing through Westminster. Members agreed that Professor Todd's transcript on Adult Basic Skills be attached to the minutes of this meeting to ensure they are in the public domain (Annex 2). Mr Dallat informed members that the Report by the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland entitled 'Indicators of Educational Performance and Provision' had been issued today. Professor McWilliams informed members that a motion, on the right of all part-time workers to a pension scheme with employer contributions, is to be moved in the Assembly on Tuesday 26 February 2002.The Clerk informed members that a research brief together with previous relevant Committee responses, would be sent to members on Friday.
Action: Clerk
Members considered a pre-draft Statutory Rule on Working Time (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002, which is subject to negative procedure. Members had no objections to the policy implications of the legislation at this stage. Members considered DEL's response to a query raised by the Committee during its policy consideration of the draft Statutory Rule Maternity and Parental Leave Etc. (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2002. It was noted that the proposed amendments being made by these Regulations correspond to changes made to the Great Britain Regulations which came into force on 10 January 2002. The Committee concluded that it has no objections to the policy implications of the legislation at this stage.
The next meeting will take place at 1.45pm on Thursday 28 February 2002 at Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts PLC, Interpoint Centre.
The Chairman adjourned the meeting at 4.05pm. Dr Esmond Birnie, MLA
ANNEX 1 Northern Ireland Assembly Committee for Employment and Learning Response on the draft Framework for Developing Northern Ireland's Participation in the European Union At their meeting on 21 February 2002, the Committee for Employment and Learning agreed their response on the draft 'Framework for Developing Northern Ireland's Participation in the European Union (EU).' The Committee recognises that this is a draft framework to inform a strategy, around which Northern Ireland's contribution to the European Union can be developed and made more effective and have thus limited their comments to this end. The Committee agreed that each of the ten government departments in Northern Ireland needed to have effective contacts with the EU on areas within their specific remits, in order to build up expertise. However, the Committee also supports the role of the single unit, within the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister (OFMDFM), to act as a central co-ordinator. The Committee would appreciate further information on the European dimension of employment and training issues and of the Committee's legislative role within the EU context. The Committee has often in the past been the recipients of EU directives, particularly in the area of employment legislation, and it is often unclear whether the Committee, or the Northern Ireland Assembly, has any regional discretion to amend this legislation. The Department for Employment and Learning has a key role in the administration of European funding in Northern Ireland eg it received £21m of European Social Funding in November 2001 for employment and training projects. Areas such as labour mobility and student exchanges also lie within their remit and involve considerable interaction with the EU. The Committee would also look to Europe for models and benchmarks of excellence in areas such as training systems and community education. To this end, the Committee recommends that the Northern Ireland Executive Office in Brussels should provide support for all MLAs and that a dedicated and proactive information service on European issues should be established for all Assembly Committees. Finally the Committee would urge proactivity and would support all efforts to inform all relevant persons and organisations of EU policies under consideration at an early stage. There needs to be a central, user-friendly source to access EU information. There is still a view that Northern Ireland is seen to be reacting to EU directives and members would wish the forthcoming strategy to address how consultation on such policies could better reflect the needs of Northern Ireland as a region.
Dr Esmond Birnie MLA Chairman 21 February 2002
ANNEX 2
NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY _________________________ COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT & LEARNING ________________________ Literacy ________________________ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE (Prof L Todd) Tuesday 11 December 2001
NORTHERN IRELAND ASSEMBLY ___________
COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT & LEARNING ___________ Literacy
___________ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE Tuesday 11 December 2001 Members present:
Witness: Prof L Todd
The Chairperson: Welcome, Professor Todd. Thank you for coming down from Coleraine. I gather that you are a specialist in world Englishes. I was intrigued by what that meant. You have done your own survey work on literacy, which is very relevant to today's meeting. The Committee will be interested in that. Among the documents before us are cuttings relating to the recent OECD programme for international student assessment - the PISA survey. Also tabled are the summary results for Northern Ireland from the International Adult Literacy Survey that was published in 1998. There appears to be an interesting difference between those two sets of results, relating to the absolute performance of Northern Ireland, the United Kingdom, and the Irish Republic, and their performance relative to those of other countries. Members will please keep mobile phones completely switched off, because we are recording for Hansard purposes today. I thank Prof Todd again. Would you like to make a brief introduction, followed by questions for approximately half an hour?
Prof Todd: Yes. I have a handout that might be useful. I would like to make some preliminary statements and then talk briefly about the research that I carried out. I would like to stress that literacy is a topic on which we have more anecdotes than hard evidence, more informed opinion than absolute fact. It is an extraordinarily difficult subject to tie down. I am sure you appreciate that. I have been interested in literacy since I first went to Africa, directly after I graduated from Queen's University, Belfast. That was the first time in my life that I had been in a country where it was the norm for older people, particularly women, to be illiterate simply because they had not spent a single day of their lives in school. I was in a country where there are over 200 languages for a population of just under 10 million. That sort of multi-lingual, multicultural, diverse society makes us realise what a homogeneous society we have in Northern Ireland, and illustrates that although our problems may be great, they are not as great as those in other places. The Committee will be aware that literacy is a large and sensitive subject. The dictionary definition of "literacy" is something like "the ability to read and write at a conventionally accepted level". That seems incredibly simple until you start thinking about what it means. The ability to read and write gives us the key to the universe of knowledge. Locking anyone out of that universe must create the most incredible feelings of pain and exclusion. I got a slight inkling of what people with literacy problems must feel when I visited Syria a few years ago. All notices were in Arabic. I could clearly see the squiggles. I knew that they had meaning. However, I did not have the key. I did not have access. You feel a sense of being excluded and of being vulnerable when you are in a society like that. I will use the rest of my time to talk briefly about the report that I carried out for Encarta/Bloomsbury during the summer. I emphasise that that report was actually on spelling. Spelling is only one aspect in the whole fabric of literacy. However, it is an insightful aspect because it can give clues to certain problems. Many of the graphs in the handout are self-explanatory. When we were carrying out that research, we looked at two aspects in particular. First, we wanted to discover what people thought about spelling. We wanted to gauge attitudes. Our second aim was to test people's spelling of some of the most common - though not the most difficult - words in our language. We wanted to see the results and find out if people considered spelling to be important. It is not necessary to know the exact figures; a quick glance at the graph shows that the unanimous response was that spelling is important. Which other area could achieve such unanimity? The hawk-eyed among you may have noticed the discrepancy between my brief and the graph. In the brief, I mentioned all the people that were interviewed, of whom only 0·7% thought that spelling was unimportant. It seemed appropriate that the graph should show the figures for the UK only. Even so, the graph shows that only 1% of females and 4% of males consider spelling to be unimportant; the rest consider it significant. I separated the men's responses from the women's, not for any sexist or gender agenda, but because there are some interesting discrepancies. We asked people to assess how good their spelling is. We were surprised by how many people thought they were good, or excellent, spellers. Many males thought that they were excellent spellers - far fewer women considered their spelling to be excellent. There was a marked difference in girls' self-evaluation, depending on the type of school that they attended. Of those attending single sex schools, 26% judged themselves to be poor at spelling, whereas for those attending mixed schools, that figure was only 5%. It is a matter of how people perceive themselves. How one defines poor, good, or excellent - and what those words actually mean - is debatable; however, those are the words that we have to use. We were keen to know about the use of spellcheckers, and we asked all those interviewed if they helped them with their spelling. The results were very interesting: 84% of girls and 77% of males said that spellcheckers had helped them. It is interesting that they used computers to help them with their spelling. That is an example of how literacy and information technology have, and will continue to be, united. We wondered about teenagers' use of mobile phone text messaging. It is an interesting phenomenon, of which I am sure you are all aware. I do not have the exact figures at my fingertips, but more than 80% of all the young people interviewed in the UK - England, Scotland, Wales and the North of Ireland - had used text messaging. The younger the respondent, the more likely they were to have done so. Not all of those interviewed had their own mobile phones, but they had all used them. Eighty-two per cent of females said that they had used texting. Of the teenagers aged between 16 and 21, 82% of females and 87% of males had used text messages. We included text messaging in our survey because several teachers were concerned that it was interfering with pupils' spelling, as it involves the use of abbreviations. We asked people if they thought text messaging could interfere with their spelling and we received mixed responses. The results were almost evenly matched, although I must point out that critical self-evaluation was not a strong point with young people. We wondered if our informants had a view on the likely impact of poor spelling on employment. That is such a significant issue that we put it to people in other countries as well. Although our research was mainly carried out in the United Kingdom, we did some work in the United States, the South of Ireland, Germany and Austria. We also carried out some research in Africa, but that was just for our own edification. Can poor spelling adversely affect job prospects? Again, a fairly high proportion of people in the UK suggested that it could: 80% of females and 60% of males. That contrasts quite markedly with the response we received in the United States, where 100% felt that it could affect job prospects. Therefore, there was a difference between the UK and other parts of the world. We asked informants to look at a paragraph written by an educated young man whose spelling was poor, and we asked them to select an adjective or adjectives to describe the writer. We wanted to know how they judged people who might have problems. The four most frequently used adjectives were "illiterate"; "naïve"; "strange"; and "stupid". Those are very harsh judgements, and one that springs to mind was from a sixteen-year-old who judged the person to be "eliterate The person could not spell the word, but could certainly judge and judge quite harshly. Several people made the point that it is not fair that people think they are stupid just because they are bad at spelling. We know that there is no correlation between stupidity and bad spelling; therefore there is no way I would agree with that view. However, people do judge others. It is a bit like judging a book by its cover; one should not do it, but many people do. I will move on to how people performed in our spelling tests. Bloomsbury did a piece of research on computer and they checked throughout the world on the commonest misspelt words. These are words such as "separate"; "accommodate"; "exaggerate"; "until"; and "truly". Words such as "ovoviviparous" were not chosen, because they could cause problems in pronunciation as well as spelling. We were not worried about such words; we tested relatively common words. The results were quite interesting, and we have broken them down into age groups. For the 15-21 age group, the average for females was 68% correct; the average for males was 60%. You may say that 68% and 60% are good averages. I would suggest that with words such as "until" and "truly" the averages are relatively poor. Females outperform males in the 15-21, 21-30 and 31-40 age groups. After that, something changes. I have no absolute answers for that; I will hazard a guess if you wish to push me. However, even with the 41-50 age group, the number of people getting the spelling right is very much higher. I do not know what happens when you reach 50; it is obviously not a good thing to happen to one. However, the one piece of salutary information I can give to any person who is over 50 is that of the two people who got every single spelling correct in the test, one of them was a woman over 50. We asked people if they had made a conscious effort to improve their spelling. As far as our information is concerned, the UK had the lowest rate of people who made a conscious effort to improve their spelling. They might use a spell checker; but they did not consciously try to improve their spelling. Thirty six per cent of females and 18% of males made the choice. I made the point that we cannot always judge a person's self-assessment as being accurate. The boys who thought that they were of an excellent standard scored an average of 58% for spelling, which is a poor result. Incidentally, they did not have to provide their names; the test was anonymous. It was not, therefore as if they were showing off. The girls who thought that they were of an excellent standard scored an average of 61%. Those who classed themselves as being good were often of a far better standard than those who judged themselves to be excellent. I conclude by stressing that spelling is only one strand in the fabric of literacy, but a significant one, because it often indicates a difficulty in recognising words or shapes. That applies also to numbers, and would therefore provide corroborative evidence, at least, of a numeracy problem. I am preaching to the converted; literacy has never been more necessary. The fact that literacy is so vital, even for health reasons, in carrying out tasks as apparently simple as microwaving a meal, or reading instructions, illustrates how literacy has never been more necessary.
The Chairperson: That was extremely interesting. It is valuable to see those results; they provide a good deal of food for thought.
Mr Dallat: Table 8, which presents the percentages of correct spellings achieved, shows that the older age group did better. You said before that spelling in 1912 was better than it is today. Are those two facts related?
Prof Todd: Yes. I did not quote that fact today, because I would have been comparing unlike with like. Society today is incredibly different from that in 1912. Insofar as I can explain the difference, in 1912 the curriculum was relatively narrow and relatively deep. Rote learning was the norm then; it was the norm when I was at school also. It might not be fair to compare standards of spelling, because in the past, people were not only encouraged to learn how to spell; they were expected to do so. Although pupils left school at 14, they often had a much greater ability to spell. The difference in standard is noticeable in the letters of older people who are in their 70s, for example. They might have spent only seven years at school, but the structure of their sentences, their paragraphing and their spelling are terribly impressive. We might have lost something, but I assume that gains have been made as well.
Mrs Carson: You have answered some of my questions in your response to Mr Dallat. I am interested in table 9 in which people were asked whether they had made a conscious effort to improve their spelling. Overall, people in the United Kingdom have not. What age group were you dealing with?
Prof Todd: That covered the entire spectrum of ages. Our largest age group was that of 15- to 18- year olds, which involved more than 1,500 young people. The others categories were smaller, and served as a test of the accuracy of what we were trying to do. For young people, in particular, the graph was exactly the same shape. Females said that they had made a conscious effort, but we did not check how much effort they had made. The ratio was roughly 2:1.
Mrs Carson: I was interested because the fashion in primary school about 20 to 25 years ago dictated that as long as you scribbled something down, it did not matter if you could not spell, your writing was poor, or you had no grammar. That was the fashion promoted by the inspectorate, and that was acceptable then, despite the efforts of some of the teachers. That is borne out; residue has come through from that practice. In your statement, I particularly like the second point on 'What is Literacy?': "ensuring literacy standards in children is cheaper and more effective for a community than remedial work".
Prof Todd: There is no question about that.
Mrs Carson: Judging on what we have been hearing in the Assembly and the various things that have come through to our Committee, the whole emphasis now seems to be the wrong way round. Money is being thrown at adult literacy when the problem should be tackled at a younger age. What is your opinion on that? We have a problem with adults, but are we lacking something in our primary education system?
Prof Todd: I do not want to pontificate; anything that I say is my opinion. However, I genuinely believe that society needs to have a totally literate citizenship. It clearly must be best for everyone to get it right in the early stages. There are two areas of concern in Northern Ireland - there are certain problems with schoolchildren, but we also have a problem with older people. Like it or not, we must deal with both. Eventually, if we can deal with the children in the first couple of years of school and solve that trend, the problems will wear themselves out. It would be terrible to now leave 30, 40 or 50-year-olds in a sort of limbo where they are not totally integrated in society. Your point is right, this must be corrected, but you cannot leave these people to die off; something must be done for them.
Mrs Carson: I was not advocating that.
Prof Todd: No, I was not suggesting that for a moment.
Mrs Nelis: I thank Prof Todd; her presentation has been interesting. This is a subject that I have a particular interest in. As an expert in literacy, you have probably come across the difficulty in phonics in trying to teach literacy. I remember a poem that you are probably familiar with that I think was in the Times Literary Supplement. It started off: "I take it you already know Of tough and bough and cough and dough".
Prof Todd: "Man alive! I'd mastered it when I was five."
Mrs Nelis: That is it. That is a marvellous poem, because it sums up everything that people who are involved in literacy want to try to get across. I want to ask you something that has puzzled me for a long time. Would you accept that the context of reading material given to children could influence their ability to be literate? I left school at 14; I left with a good grounding having been subjected to years of endless spelling tests, both oral and written. We were taught the so-called "three 'R's", and spelling was certainly one of them; you never forget that. Is there a generation gap in texting? I am talking about the older person who is functionally illiterate and the younger person trying to achieve functional literacy. Would the younger person be inclined to use sophisticated technological aids for texting? What can we do about the adult? What magical aids are available, apart from computers? Can we change the reading material? Finally, can you explain dyslexia? So many people tell me that because they cannot spell, they are dyslexic.
Prof Todd: Dyslexia is the inability to recognise and understand written language. It is a problem for many people. I distinguish sharply between poor spelling and dyslexia. It is suggested that 1 in 10 of the population is dyslexic. I am concerned with such round figures. The true figure is not known, but it is quite big. A dyslexic person would be as likely to produce "teh" or "hte" as "the". That form of dyslexia is where the letters of a word are known, but their order is not significant. It is a form of word blindness, like colour blindness. It is very different from a person who writes "untill": that is not getting anything in the wrong order, it is an incorrect analogy. There is a difference. Every one of us is capable of making a slip. Tony Blair spelt "tomorrow" as "toomorrow". We can all do that. Talking and writing at the same time can produce the most incredible concoctions or analogies. Poor Dan Quayle spelt "potato" as "potatoe". The last syllable of "potato" sounds like "toe" as in the toe on your foot. The analogy is understandable, but mistakes like that are not caused by dyslexia. Dyslexia is a very real problem, and it must be treated with the same care and attention as any other medical problem. The problem may even be related to the eyes. Research suggests that dyslexia is partly caused by looking at a blackboard sideways. There are techniques for dealing with dyslexia that can help enormously. It is wonderful if people can make efforts to overcome it. I do not mean any offence when I say that sometimes dyslexia is used as an excuse. Students have told me that they are dyslexic but, on marking their work, I know that they are just poor spellers. There is a continuum between dyslexia and poor spelling. Where you divide that is a personal view.
Mrs Nelis: Although dyslexia is culturally acceptable, poor spelling may be unacceptable as regards self-esteem.
Prof Todd: That is a very good point. It is awful that young people look down on you if you are a poor speller and think that you are stupid. Part of our survey suggests that that attitude is true. It might be different if people said that they have a problem. We are all learning not to make judgements about people. A medical certificate might make people's lives easier. However, there is nothing to say that dyslexics cannot be trained. It is not a permanent condition that cannot be overcome.
Mrs Nelis: What reading material was used?
Prof Todd: That is a good question. Experiments have been carried out to test different materials and methods: some old-fashioned and some modern methods. The experiments found that if a person had a devoted teacher, it did not matter what materials or methods were used. A superb, creative teacher can use any method, methodology or materials. However, with the burdens that are put on teachers, it is difficult to expect them to be creative all the time. It would be a good idea. Like the rest of us, young people get bored with some reading material. I looked at some materials that read: "The walls are old and crumbling. The chairs are old and crumbling. The man is old and crumbling." It went on and on. With the best will in the world, that might have reinforced structures, and taught people the spelling of words such as "old" and "crumbling", but by the time that was learned, any interest would have been lost. Major differences exist between the learning needs of adults and those of children. Children love to be told stories, and if the story teller deviates one iota, they will say, "That is not right". However, adults need variety. The old-fashioned way to teach phonics and to learn the alphabet was to say "'A' is an apple that hangs on a tree" et cetera. I have probably given away my age and background, but that does not matter. Our alphabet is terribly difficult and unusual because it does not give pronunciation clues. For example, the letter "c" is not sounded in "cake" as it is phonically - it does not have the same sound in "cake" as it does in "celery". We also have very difficult spellings of words. The most successful method of teaching spelling is to teach the sounds /a/, /b/ and /c/ phonetically. I put my head on the block because other people say that whole word recognition is the best way to teach language. I have had debate after debate about that, but from the evidence that I have seen, to teach spelling phonetically is old-fashioned and slow, yet it seems to work.
Mr Carrick: Is there a connection between poor literacy and modern teaching methods? By "modern" I mean those methods used in the past 20 years or so. Television has possibly made young people lazy - we have a generation of viewers instead of a generation of readers. Reading should improve a person's spelling ability because he or she will become familiar with words and their context. Is there a link between weaknesses in teaching methods and television and advertising?
Professor Todd: One person we asked about spelling said that advertising was a terrible influence. That person had taken driving lessons with someone who had advertised "duel control" - the word was spelt "duel", which is quite interesting. Your questions are superb, but they are not easy to answer because the Committee would need to see examples. Children have wonderful access to television, but if people in urban areas 60 or 65 years ago had enough money, they went to the cinema almost as often as people watch television now. That sort of medium can widen the imagination. I went to the cinema a great deal when I was a child, and I loved television, so I am not your typical academic. Those influences are all positive. There were undoubtedly changes, but Northern Ireland was lucky because those changes came later. In other words, perhaps we have not gone so far down the hill. The changes in England came in the 1960s, so those different influences have been there for longer. Love of reading must be taught and encouraged. It is beneficial if children have something to read that they enjoy, such as the Harry Potter books. Much hype surrounded the Harry Potter books. Forgive me if I seem to be pushing Bloomsbury Publishing Ltd; I do not work for them, but I did do some work for them. There is no doubt in my mind that children love the Harry Potter books and pass them around. Therefore, the material is there. Nobody wants a Gradgrindian type of school. Moreover, we have to get away from the idea that a person must be rich. Now is a good time to ask exactly what it is that we want our children to do. To return to Mr Dallat's question, is the syllabus in the first years of school too wide, as opposed to the narrower approach used in the past, which focused on reading, writing and times tables? I still remember that 9 times 9 is 81; I am of that generation. A child's mind is at its most elastic from the age of four until puberty. To make a child memorise things will not hurt anything else; a child's mind has an almost infinite capacity to enlarge. As a child gets older, he or she will remember best what it learned when very young. I could ask anybody in this room who learnt poems when they were six or seven years old to recite them, and they would be able to do so. However, they may not remember the exact headline that they saw in this morning's newspaper. That is what we are like. In young children, we have the most wonderful material. We do not exploit it. Children should learn another language at Key Stage 2. Phonologically, once they reach puberty, they are not as able to pronounce other languages as they would be at an earlier age.
Mr Carrick: I recognise that television and information technology can be used to improve literacy. However, there is a serious downside if people neglect reading as a result of computer use.
Prof Todd: Nobody can argue with that; it is a perfectly valid point. However, there must be a happy medium. We have to teach IT skills; we have to teach people to be computer literate. Large shopping centres in the United States increasingly use consoles. People must press buttons to find what they are looking for. We realise how much depends on the ability to read and write. How would it feel to drive if you were unable to read the road signs? It is not that people are totally illiterate. Some people are not fully literate, and that is often not their fault. They take much longer to get from the word to the meaning than is the case with people who are fully literate, because the more you read, the quicker you can read.
Mr Beggs: The Committee for Employment and Learning is concerned with further education rather than the schools sector, but it would certainly address failings that may have developed at school. When we realise that almost 20% of 16 to 25 year olds have not met basic standards, or have only reached level one, it is important that we investigate further. I would like to draw on your international experience. What can our primary and secondary sectors do to ensure that far more of our children reach and exceed that basic level? Those children must experience an unhappy time at school. They study many subjects, yet they do not have the basic tools. That is an important aspect for the Committee to address. Mr Carrick mentioned reading. Reading must be encouraged, and, as a parent, I try to do my bit. IT is used in adult literacy classes, and it is useful to remove some of the stigma. Those adults can justifiably say that they are attending a computer course. Is that a useful vehicle to develop additional teaching methods and to remove some of the stigma that is attached to addressing literacy standards? Finally, we all accept that literacy plays an important role in obtaining a job. Have any surveys been conducted on the English literacy levels of children who attend Irish-medium schools and the subsequent effect that attending such schools has on their job opportunities?
Prof Todd: No. To the best of my knowledge, that has not been done. Children at an Irish-medium school, for example, will often be in much smaller classes, and they get extra help. Therefore, it is often hard to pinpoint reasons for low levels of literacy. Anyone who is bilingual, whatever the languages, has an automatic advantage when it comes to job opportunities. To return to some of the other points, each country has to solve the problem for itself. One has to deal with the ethos of Northern Ireland as it is. We can learn from other countries, but our problems are relatively unique and small when compared to other countries. For example, I am incredibly impressed by what Singapore has been able to do, given its multi-ethnic community. The largest population group in Singapore was not indigenous to the area, so there were feelings of animosity. However, almost everyone is bilingual in his or her mother tongue and in English. Could we do the same here? The people of Singapore have an ethos of discipline - absolute discipline. I am not sure that we would be allowed to have that degree of discipline here. I am not talking about punishment; I am talking about discipline. Children sit in neat rows, as I had to do when I was a child. We had to stand up, put up our hands and not talk without permission. I do not know if the clock can be turned back. No doubt other countries have faced similar problems. I mentioned in my brief that there are reports from America about appalling drops in literacy. An article in a Los Angeles newspaper last month reported said that perhaps as many as 50% of inner-city children were leaving school with below basic-level literacy. The figures are mind-blowing, and what that does to a society in the long term is amazing. No country or society can afford it. Of course, there are no easy fixes. Mrs Carson is absolutely right to say that we must start with the children. However, we cannot ignore the older people, and I agree that the use of IT can be wonderful. It is great for an older person. Moreover, if you have the right computer programmes, people need not make mistakes. They do not see frowns on another's face. They move at their speed. Everything is progressive, and the computer has infinite patience in a way that no human being has. Computers can play a role in teaching older people. Apart from anything else, the people become doubly skilled; they not only become literate, but computer literate.
Mr Byrne: The debate is between structured learning, which includes spelling and routine sentence construction, and the more modern approach, which is informal and uses computer-based aids and picture books. We have almost 250,000 illiterate adults in Northern Ireland. That seems to be our biggest difficulty in trying to help those who are disadvantaged, and who are often in long-term unemployment. Do we need specialist materials to tackle the problem of adult literacy?
Prof Todd: Yes. We must start by addressing the situation and the people with whom we are dealing. We can use existing materials; there is no point in reinventing the wheel. Tests available since the 1950s can give us an idea of a person's literacy skills. One test is inadequate, because different findings can be arrived at if a person is nervous or upset. Tailor-made materials with a Northern Ireland or an Irish perspective can work. If by any chance Northern Ireland cracked the problem, people would be queuing up to learn what we were doing, rather than our going anywhere else. The problem must be solved for the sake of people's peace of mind. We have many computers in our schools that could be used to develop adult literacy. The problem is how to get people to attend and to admit that they are not fully literate. A television campaign would probably be required, almost like those aimed at reducing drinking and driving. We could encourage people by telling them that, if they did not have a good chance the first time, they should come and learn now. However, regardless of the methods, something must be done.
The Chairperson: There appears to be a discrepancy in results. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development's (OECD) programme for international student assessment (PISA) recently awarded a good international placing to Northern Ireland's 15 year olds. However, Mr Byrne referred to roughly a quarter of adults having level 1 literacy, according to the OECD's international adult literacy survey (IALS) findings in the mid-1990s. Admittedly, that survey is not the same as the one that you conducted, but I would be interested in your comments. I found the difference striking.
Prof Todd: Perhaps I am being foolish, but I shall hazard a comment. First, as I state in my handout, I found that, on the whole, the literacy levels of Northern Ireland's children were slightly better than those of their counterparts in England, Wales and Scotland. Indeed, there was a hierarchy in which Northern Ireland came top, though the difference was not huge. Scotland was next, followed by Wales, but those differences were also relatively negligible. Scotland and Northern Ireland have perhaps maintained slightly more discipline than the others. However, there has been a big difference in 10 years. I returned to Northern Ireland last year, and I have noticed a marked difference in the desire to do well at school. There has been a sea change in schools, with children encouraged to obtain A levels and attend university. The degree of ambition in Northern Ireland is marked, so that difference may not be as surprising as it immediately seems. That is a hypothesis.
Mr Dallat: If I were Minister of Finance and Personnel and you were my researcher, Prof Todd, what information could you give me to convince the Assembly that more money spent on literacy would reduce crime, improve the standard of health and lead to greater prosperity?
Prof Todd: I could not provide firm evidence, for we are dealing with individuals. I could provide information that would make a strong suggestion. The traditional view is that the devil finds work for idle hands. From that viewpoint, if people are fully occupied and feel that they have a role in society, they will be less likely to do something wrong. There will always be those who will do wrong and those who will go to jail. Although I believe in the amelioration of the species, I am aware that original sin is always in the background. You could collect evidence - or get a company to collect it on your behalf - that would strongly suggest that money spent on adult education would dramatically transform the students' quality of life. However, it is not simply a matter of spending money on adult education, it is about enabling people to become literate.
The Chairperson: Thank you, Prof Todd. The Committee should write to our Minister to ask that Richard Sterling, the chairperson of the Basic Skills Committee, which is drawing up a strategy for basic skills, consider some of the basic spelling issues that you have raised. We should also ensure that our sister Committee, the Committee for Education, receive a copy of the minutes of today's meeting, because the issue is relevant to it also. Your contribution has been fascinating. It has been valuable to hear from somebody who has direct experience of research, including international research. We wish you well in your continuing work in that area. |
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