MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE TWELFTH MEETING OF THE HIGHER AND FURTHER EDUCATION, TRAINING AND EMPLOYMENT COMMITTEE
IN ROOM 152, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
ON TUESDAY 20 JUNE 2000.

1. Apologies
2. Minutes
3. Matters Arising
4.Chairman's Business
5. Budget and Correspondence with Minister
6. Draft Equality Statement
7. Any Other Business

PRESENT: Dr E Birnie (Chairman)
Mr M Carrick (Deputy Chairman)
Mr R Beggs (Jnr)
Mr J Byrne
Rev Coulter
Mr J Dallat
Mr W Hay
Mr R Hutchinson
Mr J Kelly

IN ATTENDANCE: Mrs E Sung, Ms A Colville, Mrs C McGrattan

1. Apologies

Mrs McWilliams, Mrs Nelis

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2. Minutes of proceedings of the meeting of 13 June 2000

Agreed as amended.

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3. Matters arising from the Minutes of Proceedings 13 June 2000

1. Meeting with the Minister:
   The Chairman reported that, on 19 June, he and the Deputy Chairman had met the Minister who had advised as follows:

   Planning: Due to timing of suspension, the Department had now agreed its business plan 2000/2001. The Minister will forward this to the Committee. The Department was now beginning work on its Strategic Plan, which would be informed by the Programme of Government (the Chairman noted that he and Mr Carrick had ascertained that the Minister would wish the Committee to be proactive with respect to development of the Programme of Government.)
   
   Skills Audit: Information on Skills Audit had been included in the Minister's letter of 16 June to the Chairman, copied to Committee members. (The Committee will revert to this topic at the 29 June meeting).
   
   TSN: The Department will forward to the Committee its TSN action plan.
   
   Walsh Visa Programme: The Minister offered an official briefing.
   
   New Deal: The question of windfall monies had been raised. The Minister emphatically maintained that none of the ringfenced allocation had been shifted elsewhere, and that any unspent monies would, subject to permission of the Chancellor, be rolled forward into the next financial year. (Monies had been reallocated from resources set aside for administration of New Deal).
   
   Budget: The Minister had recognised that timing was crucial, since Treasury indications of the settlement of NI Block allocations was expected in July. During the period July-September, Departments' bids were considered, with decisions made during September. This, given the summer recess, left little scope for significant Committee scrutiny.
   Agreed
   To invite the Minister to appear before the Committee on 6 July in connection with Spending Review 2000.
   Review of Student Finance: The Minister said the Department would like to complete the Student Finance Review in time for implementation in 2001. Decisions on new student support systems would need to be taken by autumn.
   Agreed
   The Committee will aim to respond by October 2000.
   New Deal: The Minister took note of the Committee's concerns that New Deal needed to be better tailored to Northern Ireland's needs. He considered it appropriate that adjustments to the New Deal package should be raised at the British/Irish Council and/or the Joint Ministerial Committees.

2. Committee involvement in major DHFETE decisions: Agreed

   That, given the Ministerial statement on Monday 19 June regarding the SPUR Scheme for University R&D, the Committee will formally write to the Minister as soon as possible, and send a copy to the Permanent Secretary, and to the First and Deputy First Ministers, concerning the Committee's involvement in major decisions involving expenditure.

   In considering the appropriate protocols, the Committee discussed the important accountability role of statutory committees, in line with Standing Orders. There was agreement that departmental practices needed to change, to ensure Committee involvement at an early stage in all major decisions involving significant expenditure. Consistent with the Committee's statutory scrutiny role, and its statutory powers, the Minister was required to take due account of and give proper weight to Committee views. This had not been the case in relation to the SPUR announcement.

   The letter would clarify that, without in any way implying that the Minister had breached the letter of Standing Orders in respect of his handling of the SPUR statement to the House as the first item of business on Monday 19 June, and notwithstanding formal procedures, Members would appreciate some form of advance briefing on major decisions, particularly those with significant resource or expenditure implications. Further, the Department should ensure that the Committee was made aware in advance of press conference arrangements associated with such announcements, so that they could attend.

   Noted

   The Committee noted the obligation on the Minister, under Standing Order 18, to make available a written copy of any statement to the Assembly, "as early as possible before delivering the statement in the Assembly"; that Standing Orders require notice of such statements to be given to the Speaker not less than 21/2 hours before they are due to be made; and the requirement that no copies of such statements, embargoed or otherwise, should be given to the press before they have been made available to all Members.

   The Committee further noted that the Minister's Office and the Permanent Secretary had advised the Chairman of the general thrust of the statement on Friday afternoon 16 June, but that the detail of the statement was not made available, nor was he told of the press conference, until Monday morning 19 June, around 10am, although Committee staff had communicated to the Chairman and Deputy Chairman on Friday as much as the Departmental Liaison Unit was prepared to release.

   The two Vice Chancellors and the Chairman of the Higher Education Funding Council had taken part in the press conference and made the announcement jointly with the Minister. By contrast, embargoed press releases were not made available to the Committee, nor were the Committee advised, until the Minister was in the House, of the press conference scheduled to take place in the Assembly media suite immediately following questions in the House.

   It was noted that, had the Committee availed of the briefing immediately following questions, which had been offered by the Minister, they would have missed the press conference. (In the event, that briefing did not occur, though some Members did go to the pre-arranged room when the statement was completed.)

   SPUR committed a considerable sum (£20m over 5 years) of government money, yet Committee members had no input into the decision to reallocate these monies. Primary legislation and Standing Orders provide for the Committee to have a budget scrutiny, advisory and consultative role which, given the circumstances, it had neither been able to exercise, nor to show to be exercising.

   The Committee expressed its disappointment that Dr Davison had not advised the Committee of the prospective announcement while giving formal evidence to Members on Thursday 15 June, despite being formally requested, in advance, to notify the Committee of any aspects of his evidence which were confidential.

3. Public Expenditure and EYF:

   Agreed

   A letter to the Chairman of the Finance Committee, proposing additional in-year funding for access funds for mature students to HE/FE; increase in HND places; and lifelong learning, particularly literacy/numeracy; and including reference to the Committee's interest in wider issues of lifelong learning and education for citizenship.

4. Committee support

   Noted

   Continuing staff vacancies in the Clerk's team, and wider difficulties in securing civil service secondments up to the Assembly Commission ceiling. The Committee expressed its appreciation for the high level of service provided by clerking staff. The Clerk thanked the Committee for their continuing support, and expressed her intent to continue to provide appropriate, high quality services. Nonetheless she expressed her concern that appropriate resources were needed to do so, without exerting undue pressures on staff.

   Agreed

   The Committee will keep this question in view, and, as appropriate, progress the issues (e.g. through the Assembly Commission, Liaison Committee, and with OFM/DFM).

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4. Chairman's Business

(a) Noted and agreed

Press notice regarding to-day's meeting.

(b) Committee Motions:

The Chairman said that the Clerk had taken advice from the Clerk of Business, and that all three sample motions proposed by the Committee at their meeting on 13 June were competent. The Committee agreed that all three motions were very important. The Chair will lay one motion, with the intent of progressing the issue of tailoring New Deal to Northern Ireland's needs, in time for decision by the next meeting of the Assembly Business Committee on 27 June, to try to ensure that this motion can be debated before recess.

(c)Regional Development Strategy

Agreed

That Assembly Research Department be asked to identify references relevant to this Committee's work, and areas which this Committee should include comment on, in its response to the request from the Chairman of the Regional Development Committee, for input to the 25 year strategy for regional development.

That it was important for the Committee to make a timely input to this strategic framework for the whole of Northern Ireland, including the financial implications.

That the Chairman and Vice Chairman should meet with the Chairman of the Regional Development Committee once the Committee's formal response was ready.

5. Budget and correspondence with Minister

Agreed

A letter to the Minister, including the Committee's views on handling of responses to a public consultation process, and the Committee's formally expressed wish to be involved in the Spending Review 2000.

That the letter should invite the Minister to appear before the Committee on 6 July to give evidence regarding the budgetary process.

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6. Draft Equality Statement

Agreed

, incorporating substantial written contributions from a large number of members, and debate in Committee, was agreed as laid before the Committee on 13 June, subject to reference to "lesser used languages" and removal of references, by way of example, in parenthesis at page 5. The Committee emphasised the importance it attached to clearly defined responsibilities and accountability for the Assistant Secretary charged with ensuring co-ordination and compliance throughout the Department's responsibilities.
The Committee recognised the assistance of Assembly Research and Clerking staff on successive drafts. The Chairman confirmed the legality of references to affirmative action, and the difference between this and positive discrimination (which was considered not legal). TOP

7. AOB

(a) Committee Advisers

Noted

The overall, generic responsibility of the Clerk for co-ordinating draft reports on the advice of and for consideration by the Committee, notwithstanding the involvement of advisers, particularly where technical or specialist knowledge was important.

(b) Future Business

Agreed

To consider named advisers and their involvement at a future meeting, and in the light of future business.

Noted

The Committee put on record that the Permanent Secretary had written to the Assembly regarding the forthcoming merger of Training Centres into Higher and Further Education institutions, and noting the accompanying transfer of resources.

Noted

The Chairman reminded Members of the change of time to 11am on Thursday 22 June, to accommodate John Simpson's appearance to give evidence to the enquiry into education and training for industry.

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15 June 2000 / Menu / 22 June 2000