Committee for the Environment - Powers and Membership 3
Recommendations

Introduction

Background to the Report
Terms of Reference
The Committee's Approach
Key Issues Considered
School Children with Disabilities
Acknowledgements

Consideration of Evidence
The Legislative Framework
Maximum Number of Children Permitted under the Legislation
The Use of '3 for 2' Provision
School Children Standing on Buses
Translink's Stage Carriage Services
Seatbelts
Signage
Flashing Lights
Legislation Governing the Use of Minibuses/Coaches on Organised Trips
Consolidation of the Legislation
Yellow School Bus System
Arrangements for getting on and off Buses
Improved Means of Communication for Bus/Coach Drivers
Behaviour and Vandalism Issues
Storage of Equipment/Baggage
Improved Liaison between Schools and Transport Providers / The Bus-Pass System
Road Safety Education
Road Conditions
The Adequacy of Insurance Cover for Buses used in School Transport
Monitoring of Insurance Cover for and Accidents involving Taxis used in School Transport
Accident Reporting

Appendix 1. - Minutes of the Proceedings of the Committee relating to the Report
Appendix 2. - List of Witnesses who gave oral evidence to the Committee

Appendix 3 - Minutes of Evidence
Appendix 4 - Written Submissions to the Committee from those who gave oral evidence (Printed)
Appendix 5 - List of other Written Submissions to the Committee from those who did not give oral evidence (Unprinted)

The Committee for the Environment is a Statutory Departmental Committee established in accordance with paragraphs 8 and 9 of the Belfast Agreement, Section 29 of the NI Act 1998 and under Assembly Standing Order 46. The Committee has a scrutiny, policy development and consultation role with respect to the Minister of the Environment and has a role in the initiation of legislation.

The Committee has power to:

• consider and advise on Departmental budgets and Annual Plans in the context of the overall budget allocation;
• approve relevant secondary legislation and take the Committee Stage of primary legislation;
• call for persons and papers;
• initiate inquiries and make reports; and
• consider and advise on any matters brought to the Committee by the Minister of the Environment.

The Committee has 11 members including a Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson with a quorum of five. The membership of the Committee since its establishment on 29 November 1999 has been as follows:

Dr William McCrea Chairperson
Ms Carmel Hanna Deputy Chairperson
Mrs Joan Carson
Mr Arthur Dohery
Mr David Ford
Mr James Leslie
Mr David McClarty*
Mr Mitchell McLaughlin
Mr Mick Murphy
Mr Edwin Poots
Mr Denis Watson

* Mr David McClarty replaced Mr Tom Hamilton on 26 February 2001, who had previously replaced Mr Tom Benson on 29 January 2001. Mr Benson died on 24 December 2000.

Witnesses:
Mr J Ritchie )
Mr S Martin ) Department of the Environment
M A Peoples )

1.

The Chairperson: Gentlemen, I welcome you here this morning. We are commencing an inquiry into transport used by children travelling to and from school. This is one of the most important tasks that we have undertaken. No doubt, as shown by the extensive representation that has been made to us, this issue has keenly touched the hearts of many people in the community - teachers, parents and children.

2.

I am delighted that we have exercised the minds and excited the thinking of others. I notice that other Committees have reacted to this particular issue and that is deeply appreciated because it is of vital importance to the community. I suppose one could say that one is alarmed that the issue has not had a high priority for investigation until now. However, better late than never. In one of our previous meetings we heard the news of two buses colliding and some children being taken to hospital. Thankfully no one was killed, but some were injured. That caused us concern.

3.

Gentlemen, we will start with your presentation and after that we will investigate the matter further with questions. We appreciate the information that you have already sent. Thank you for coming. At the end of this inquiry I trust that we will be able to see a brighter way ahead on this issue.

4.

Mr Ritchie: Thank you very much for your welcome and for the invitation to be here. The presentation that I have is fairly short. I realise that members of the Committee will want to ask questions on the more detailed paper that we submitted on 19 October, which focused on the particular issues in your terms of reference. We welcome the opportunity to be here to explain the current arrangements for the licensing and testing of vehicles used to transport schoolchildren, and the Department welcomes the Committee's in-depth examination of this issue.

5.

I am director of Road Safety and Vehicle Standards division in the Department, and I am accompanied by Mr Stewart Martin, director of Road Transport Licensing branch in the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, and Mr Alistair Peoples, director of technical policy at the Driver & Vehicle Testing Agency.

6.

We would like to make a few brief introductory points setting the Northern Ireland regulatory framework into its European and UK context. The first thing to appreciate is that buses and coaches are a safe form of road transport but, like other forms of mass transport, when collisions occur it can result in large numbers of injuries. The safety record of buses, coaches and minibuses in Northern Ireland, and I think elsewhere, is very good. The reason for this good safety record is that for many years manufacturers, operators and Governments throughout Europe have worked together to deliver improved passenger safety which is reflected in the legislative framework - much of it derived from European directives.

7.

The industry is highly regulated within that strong framework. The UK Government has, since joining the European Community, applied European regulations and directives quickly in this area. In some cases - particularly in relation to child safety - it has moved ahead of European requirements. The policy for the past 30 years in Northern Ireland has been to maintain parity with Great Britain. The Department of the Environment's priority in regulating the bus industry within this long-established framework remains very firmly safety driven. That is the rationale for all of the regulations and the requirements that are placed on the industry.

8.

The regulatory framework that we operate has stood the test of time so far. The number of road casualties in buses, minibuses and coaches is low, particularly for deaths and serious injury.

9.

I want to briefly explain the regulatory framework. The legislation provides a comprehensive framework to cover the manufacture and construction of vehicles; the licensing of vehicles and their operation on roads; the testing of vehicles from their first use, and on an annual basis thereafter by the Driver & Vehicle Testing Agency; the testing of bus drivers; and the licensing of commercial operators to ensure that they meet minimum standards of repute, professional competence and financial standing.

10.

The regulatory framework is supported by a system of enforcement, which operates primarily through advice and warning, but ultimately by the prospect of prosecution, either by the police or the Department's staff. The Department's staff conduct roadside checks, inspect operators' premises and - most importantly - follow up specific complaints from the public and public representatives.

11.

The final point concerns the operating framework. To fully understand Northern Ireland's regulatory framework, one must appreciate that there are two parallel operating frameworks. Vehicle safety standards provide the common base underlying both of them. There are two sectors - commercial operators and the voluntary sector. Commercial operators, such as Translink and a number of private operators, hire their fleet for profit. They are covered by the Public Service Vehicles (Conditions of Fitness, Equipment and Use) Regulations (NI) 1995 (SR 1995 No 447), which, among other things, set out the maximum number of passengers that can be transported, including standees if permitted. The other sector consists of charity groups and non-profit operators. It also includes the education and library boards, which operate under the 'Bus Permits Scheme', as described in our submission. Although there are no specific restrictions on vehicle passenger numbers, they are required to operate in a safe manner. The fundamental difference between the two sectors is the absence of a commercial motive in the voluntary sector, which at times might compete with the safety imperative. That is the main reason for having two regulatory systems. I trust that that brief outline has helped the Committee to understand the regulatory framework.

12.

The Chairperson: In your memorandum, under the section entitled "To examine the legislation governing the number of schoolchildren permitted to travel on buses", paragraph 3 says that a "53-seater bus licensed as a public service vehicle which legally may carry up to a maximum of 101 passengers provided that all of the seated passengers are children under 14 years of age". Who decided upon a limit of 101 children on a 53-seater bus?

13.

Mr Ritchie: The number 101 does not appear in any regulations. The figure is arrived at if one uses the example of a 53-seater bus. If it is a public service vehicle the operator is allowed to carry children on a "3 for 2" basis. Therefore, in theory, 101 is the maximum number that can be legally carried, based on the application of the "3 for 2" principle to 53 sitting and 22 standing. That is an attention grabbing headline, but I do not believe that 101 children ever travel on a school bus. For example, Translink's practice is -

14.

The Chairperson: Have you seen some of them recently?

15.

Mr Ritchie: I have seen some buses. I would have to defer to the enforcement staff. I do not believe that any would reach 101. As I was going to explain, Translink operates on the basis of a limit of 75 passengers on scheduled services. We understand that the education and library boards do not allow standing - that is explained in more detail in our memorandum. The theoretical maximum on an education and library board 53-seater bus is 79. The number 101 can be reached by simple mathematical extrapolation. I seriously doubt if there is ever anything close to 101 schoolchildren on a bus.

16.

"3 for 2" is to allow drivers the flexibility to take additional children safely, provided that children are under the age of 14 and three can fit on a double seat. In the example of a scheduled service, this is to prevent them being left at the roadside on a winter's morning. Translink operates a 75 limit and education and library boards operate no standing. I doubt there is ever anything near 101 children. That is the theoretical maximum that would be legal and relatively safe within the regulations. The regulations are designed for the safety of passengers.

17.

The Chairperson: How would 101 children on a 53-seater bus be safe?

18.

Mr Ritchie: I said relatively safe. Safe is an absolute term.

19.

The Chairperson: How would 101 children on a 53-seater bus be relatively safe?

20.

Mr Ritchie: The record of injuries on the road demonstrates that there is not a problem. I am suggesting that number is not reached, but it is perfectly legal. I am only explaining the current legislation. The same regulations apply in Great Britain and similar regulations apply elsewhere in Europe. The "3 for 2" rule is not unique to Northern Ireland or the United Kingdom. It applies in the Republic of Ireland, other European countries and many American states.

21.

The Chairperson: We will develop that as we go through some questions.

22.

Ms Hanna: I can accept the regulation requirements around the manufacture, construction and licensing, but I am concerned about the number of children allowed to travel on a bus. Is that the safest form of travel for children? The regulations are stronger if children are travelling in a car.

23.

Also, is it true that you have legislation that children travelling on trips on a bus have to wear safety belts, which is not so on the school bus?

24.

Mr Ritchie: Buses are much safer than car travel, and the statistics will bear that out. Children are more at risk in cars, especially if they are not belted. Unfortunately, Northern Ireland has a poor record of seat belt wearing in cars, particularly in rear seats. Statistics show that 65% of children wear seat belts in rear seats and clearly they are more at risk than in a bus. Buses are a very stable form of transport.

25.

Ms Hanna: Are you comfortable that they are safe enough, even if they have to stand?

26.

Mr Ritchie: The safety requirements for standing passengers are provided for - stanchions, grab rails and other detailed technical items. Mr Peoples can explain in more detail, if you wish.

27.

There is a European distinction between coaches and minibuses in one group and buses, which are designed for standing passengers and, in many cases, are not capable of having seat belts fitted. They are not designed for the same speeds of travel that coaches and minibuses are. The European regulations do not require seat belts on buses, in that narrow description. Colloquially they are called urban buses; it is not a distinction based on where they are travelling but based on the nature and construction of the bus. Buses are not required to have seat belts and there are no plans in Europe, as far as we are aware, to introduce them.

28.

There are requirements for coaches and minibuses. Regulations are currently being proposed that all coaches and minibuses, from manufacture and first registration next year, will be required to have seat belts. If seat belts are fitted on the vehicle, the "3 for 2" rule cannot apply. A large number of recent minibuses and coaches will have seat belts fitted.

29.

Statistics from Britain suggest that 97% of minibuses and coaches registered in the last three or four years have had seat belts fitted.

30.

Ms Hanna: Do you think that the big buses we are discussing should have seat belts fitted?

31.

Mr Ritchie: As I am not an engineer, I am not qualified to make that judgement. The engineers, and the experts in Britain and Europe, do not see a need to put seat belts on to what we call urban buses, and there are no plans to do that.

32.

Ms Hanna: Some big buses already have seat belts fitted. I recently travelled on such a bus. It was not a school bus, but it was equivalent to one.

33.

Mr Richie: I could not comment on that specific point. Mr Peoples might be able to.

34.

Mr Peoples: A number of bus operators have fitted seat belts to buses. However, the problem goes back to the manufacture of the bus. The weakest link is where the seat is bolted to the floor, and the floor must be adequate for that. Many buses manufactured today would not meet the requirements now in place for seat belt anchorage points. Thus fitting a seat belt may give a mistaken sense of security, because the seat itself may not be properly anchored to take the extreme loads that it might be subjected to.

35.

Mr Ritchie: Buses are designed increasingly with more standing areas to enable people to get on and off quickly, so industry and the Government do not see them as an issue for that sort of vehicle.

36.

Mr McLaughlin: What are your views on the yellow bus systems used in the United States and Canada? Would an adapted application of that system work here? You suggest that the enforcement of laws preventing overtaking of stationary school buses would be difficult to enforce here. What would the increased dangers be to road users and children if this policy were introduced? If we had a locally adapted system, what difficulties would there be in introducing legislation or enforcement policies to ensure no overtaking of stationary buses that are dropping off children?

37.

Mr Ritchie: The introduction of the American bus system would represent a radical overhaul of our system. If I understand it correctly, it has developed because large parts of the United States do not have an effective and efficient public transport system, and all children travel to school on special school buses. Other drivers are not allowed to overtake in either direction when these buses are stopped. If the Committee were considering that system there would be major implications for Translink, and others, in taking children off the present system - which is a safe system.

38.

Mr McLaughlin: There may be a happy medium, given the current realities, which would allow us to develop specific provision for the transport of schoolchildren, using Translink or some other local carrier.

39.

Mr Ritchie: If you are considering a complete overhaul of the system, then a move to the American style could be sustainable. From a road safety point of view, a dual system - where children are transported by both school buses and scheduled buses -- could create confusion for road users and children over which buses cause traffic to stop. Such dangers need to be considered when adapting a system. These buses would be clearly marked but, given driving behaviour in Northern Ireland, the system might tempt some motorists to overtake just before a bus stops or just after it starts off again. Such behaviour would increase the risks to children and other road users. We need a system that is clearly understood.

40.

Road safety education experts felt that introducing a rule to forbid the overtaking of stationary school buses might create more dangers for children - certainly in the short term and possibly for quite some time. Our biggest problem in Northern Ireland is driving behaviour - not, I hasten to add, of bus drivers but of car drivers.

41.

Mr Benson: Can I just follow up on the question raised by Mr McLaughlin? There is no doubt that the greatest number of fatalities occurs when children get off buses and run from behind them into oncoming traffic. What are your views on that?

42.

Some of us are being lobbied by a group which suggests that we adopt the American practice of parking the buses in the middle of the road. While that may work on a very narrow road, it would not be appropriate on most roads. What are your views on that system?

43.

What are the type, size and number of signs on buses at present? What signs would be needed if that system were to be introduced?

44.

Mr Ritchie: I must ask Mr Peoples about the regulations concerning signs and hazard lights.

45.

Mr Benson: What action are you taking, or what publicity do you have, to make the public aware of your education programme for safe driving?

46.

Mr Ritchie: You said that the greatest number of child deaths occurred when children were getting on or off buses. I was not aware of that. There may have been some incidents -

47.

Mr Benson: We have had several incidents in County Down.

48.

The Chairperson: There have been a number of incidents in my own area as well. That is why I question the accuracy of your statistics.

49.

Mr Ritchie: The statistics relate to injuries incurred when getting on and off school buses. I cannot go into the exact details. The RUC might decide when investigating an incident that, although there may have been a bus nearby, the injury was not the result of getting on or off a bus. Our statistics cover children who have been injured getting on and off school buses.

50.

Mr Benson: What about the issue of buses stopping in the middle of the road?

51.

Mr Ritchie: We looked at that, and we have listened to representations from the Women's Institute, among other organisations. However, the road safety education experts felt that that could create more danger from cyclists and motorcyclists, and would be very difficult to enforce. It could cause confusion for children. They may not know which buses the vehicles are going to stop for. It could also cause confusion for drivers - they may make an honest mistake and not realise that they should have stopped.

52.

On balance the feeling was that such a scheme, simply introduced on top of the present arrangements, would not reduce injury levels. Ultimately, it comes down to enforcement.

53.

Mr Benson: And the size of the signs?

54.

Mr Ritchie: Mr Peoples has that information.

55.

Mr Peoples: The signs which are to be displayed on buses taking children to and from school - not on organised trips but on the school run - are yellow and black. I can leave an illustrative copy with you. Signs will be placed on the front and rear of the vehicle, with the front sign being slightly smaller than the one on the rear. The one on the rear is approximately 16 inches square - 250 mm.

56.

The education and library boards' school buses are yellow and quite distinctive. Other service buses which are used exclusively for taking children to school may have these signs. The normal service buses also carry children to and from school. There is a danger of confusion arising when some buses are clearly identified by signs or by colour as being school buses carrying children, while the normal service buses may also be carrying children but may not be identified as such.

57.

Mr Peoples: In terms of the publicity, the sign is displayed in the Highway Code and there is a reference to it. It is also part of the theory test, and the use of a sign on school buses and the use of hazard warning lights is highlighted in driving manuals, which are recommended reading. That is the extent of the publicity.

58.

Mr Ritchie: It has not been brought to our attention before that there is uncertainty or confusion. If a driver sees a school bus with its hazard lights flashing and the school sign is on, he should take extra care because children are getting on or off. It might be something that we should publicise more, and we will consider this. It may be part of your recommendations. We will do something more about this, if it is felt that it is not well known.

59.

Mr Poots: The most telling statement today has been that safety on buses has, to date, stood the test of time. Safety on minibuses had stood the test of time until 14 children were killed on the motorway. The safety of river boats had stood the test of time until the 'Marchioness' went down. I do not think that the Committee is prepared to allow the test of time to decide the issue. We should be looking at the problems which could arise, and take it from there. I would like Mr Peoples to tell us the weight of an unladen bus.

60.

Mr Peoples: They vary in weight. It depends on the construction.

61.

Mr Poots: What about a 53-seater Ulsterbus?

62.

Mr Peoples: I do not have those figures to hand. The unladen weight of a bus would be much greater than the unladen weight of an equivalent lorry, because most of the weight of a bus is made up of the bus itself, and has less to do with the weight of passengers.

63.

Mr Poots: I would assume that the passengers only weigh about five tonnes.

64.

Mr Peoples: You are probably correct.

65.

Mr Poots: A bus - you do not know what weight it is - is coming down a country road and meets a lorry or a milk tanker weighing 30 tonnes. There is an impact, even though both vehicles are travelling slowly. There are 22 children standing on that bus. We can forget about the 101 children on the bus; it is the 22 who are standing who are my concern. What happens? Each vehicle weighs 30 tonnes and they collide at 30 miles per hour. What is the impact?

66.

Mr Peoples: I do not know what the impact is, but the effect will be that anything that is travelling on the bus will move forwards. That is the net effect.

67.

We are quite rigorous at the annual inspection and look at the safety considerations when approving standing passengers on buses. We are not only looking at the width and height of gangways - we are also looking at preventing access or egress through an emergency exit. We are also trying to ensure that there are an appropriate number of stanchions to ensure that the passengers have something to hold on to. This is not unique to school buses - service buses within Belfast and other cities are permitted to carry standing passengers as well.

68.

Mr Poots: I may be the youngest member of the Committee, but I did not go to school yesterday either. However, I can very vividly remember standing on the bus and clinging on to a rail with one hand while the bus bounced down the road.

69.

What Mr Ritchie said is the most important thing - the need to have competent drivers driving mechanically safe vehicles. Those were the first two aspects of safety. You have to go beyond that. Had there been a serious impact - in most cases it is avoidable, but it is not always so - I cannot believe that I would have been safe at that time. My concern is for the children who are travelling on buses now. Children standing on buses are not safe. That is the key aspect of this inquiry. I would like more details on the possible impact of two heavy vehicles colliding.

70.

Mr Peoples: Without looking at the speed, weight and load of a vehicle, it is very hard to give you a precise answer. We look at all construction aspects of the vehicle at the annual inspection. We look not just at the standing passenger capacity, but also at the roadworthiness of the vehicle, the suitability of the brakes and the steering. My organisation also looks at the testing of drivers. There are quite stringent test requirements for all bus drivers, to ensure that they can avoid accidents, that people are carried safely, and that they do not jerk when moving away or stopping.

71.

The driver has a major impact on passenger safety. At the annual test on buses we check that the legislative provision for carrying people safely is in place.

72.

The Chairperson: The Committee has been given the clear impression that it is safer for children to travel on buses than in cars, but the collision statistics for 1995 to 1999 show that 413 children were injured while travelling to and from school by bus. Over the same period one child was killed and 488 injured when travelling by car. That is not the impression you gave. Much safer? The up-to-date figures are 413 and 488.

73.

Mr Ritchie: Do those statistics include slight or all injuries?

74.

The Chairperson: They include injuries of children travelling to and from school.

75.

Mr Ritchie: The statistics that we have relate to killed and seriously injured children and we are focusing on those. Slight injuries clearly are important too, but the whole picture shows that children are most at risk as pedestrians, then as car passengers and finally as passengers in buses.

76.

The Chairperson: The statistics forwarded to us from Traffic Branch show that 413 children were injured while travelling to and from school by bus while 488 were injured while travelling by car. I put it to you that those figures create a totally different impression from that which you gave earlier, and Hansard will have recorded your remarks.

77.

Mr Leslie: I am trying to get to the bottom of this. Those are absolute figures. Presumably other statistics relate to passengers per- journey, and the number of passenger journeys by bus will be far greater than passenger journeys by car. It would be interesting to know whether that statistic is available. We must compare the absolute numbers with the proportionate.

78.

Mr Ritchie: That may be a factor, and we should study those statistics. Many more children go to school in buses than in cars.

79.

May I clarify a point that Mr Poots made about standing the test of time? I would not want that remark to be interpreted as complacency by the Department; it is simply a statement of fact, based on the statistics. The Department welcomes the Committee's in-depth investigation and looks forward to reading its recommendations.

80.

Mr M Murphy: I do not agree that school buses do not carry 101 children especially in rural areas such as South Down - I have seen that. People who supervise children at 8.30 am day in places such as Warrenpoint and Castlewellan know that buses carry 101 and more children.

81.

A young boy was killed on the Castlewellan to Newry Road. How many people were on the bus that day? Was that bus overcrowded? When considering the safety of children we must remember that we are dealing with youngsters. Although we allow so many children - or even the usual 53 - on a bus, even with no one standing, we must remember that they are unsupervised and that there is horseplay. We should not leave that situation in the hands of the driver alone, no matter how well trained or experienced he is.

82.

There is a safety aspect here - those buses should be supervised. Coaches used for school trips have seat belts and are supervised by teachers, but children going to school on normal, daily bus runs are unsupervised. It is left to the driver of that bus to supervise and control those children, as well as to negotiate the poor infrastructure of rural roads. That is one aspect of safety on school buses which should be taken into account.

83.

Mr Ritchie: Instances of overloading reported to the Department or the police are investigated. Our experience of bus inspections - and there are statistics for this - is that overcrowding is not the problem on the buses and coaches checked at the roadside and at depots. There may occasionally be problems with vehicle defects. However, on the buses examined, this is not a major problem. Of the 3,000 buses and vehicles checked over the last two and a half years, prohibitions were imposed in relation to around 40 of them as a result of one or more defects being found- mechanical and otherwise. Over-crowding was an issue in a small number of cases - 10 out of the 40. That could perhaps be attributed to minibuses with a couple of extra passengers or with an extra person standing who should not be standing. I cannot say it never happens, but we will certainly follow up any instances where it does.

84.

Mr M Murphy: Have you taken supervisory regulations into account?

85.

Mr Ritchie: Not on scheduled Ulsterbus services.

86.

Mr M Murphy: What about yellow school buses?

87.

Mr Ritchie: That would be a matter for the education and library boards. There are no supervisory requirements of which I am aware.

88.

Mr M Murphy: What about from a safety point of view?

89.

Mr Ritchie: I repeat that there are no legislative requirements on the matter. It is an issue that could be looked at.

90.

Mr Martin: I would like to mention South Down. Following a number of complaints received during the period 7-18 February 2000, we carried out an inspection of school buses across Northern Ireland. In South Down we examined 28 vehicles, none of which were loaded beyond the legislative requirements. The point is that the issue was examined when the complaints were received. During that period we looked at 178 vehicles across Northern Ireland and found one case where there was one extra passenger. That amounted to 0·5% of the total 178 buses examined. The areas examined were those where complaints of overloading had been received in the past.

91.

Mr A Doherty: It is hoped that the current inquiry will result in changes to the regulations and practices, making the transporting of children to and from school safer. I concur completely with what Mr Poots said about the necessity of not relying on past, or good, figures, as one catastrophe can change that. To add to his examples, I will refer to Concorde, which had an excellent - actually, a 100% - safety record until one disaster brought all that crashing to the ground, literally and metaphorically. My question refers to the regulations governing the loading of buses, which were helpfully included in an Annex to the memorandum we received Motor Vehicle (Construction and Use) Regulations (NI) 1999. From this, Paragraph 11.5 (1) can be taken literally.

92.

If it were implemented literally, there would be no further problems. Unfortunately, it seems to have been diluted for economic rather than safety reasons, and that renders it less effective than it should be.

93.

I want to refer particularly to paragraph 115 (2) of the Regulations:

"The load carried by a motor vehicle or trailer shall at all times be so secured, if necessary by physical restraint other than its own weight, and be in such a position, that neither danger nor nuisance is likely to be caused to any person or property by reason of the load or part of it falling or being blown from the vehicle or by reason of any other movement of the load or part of it in relation to the vehicle."

94.

Children on buses are a very fragile load. Is there not a case for expanding that particular regulation to take account of loads that fall within, or are hurled about a vehicle, rather than those that fall from or are blown from a vehicle.

95.

You have referred to the need to educate drivers and to ensure that they know that buses can be brought to a halt very smoothly and steadily, and we pay tribute to the skill of the drivers who have helped to keep the accident figures fairly low. Unfortunately drivers, like everyone else, are human beings and are not always masters of things that happen outside their capacity. I reiterate Mr Poots' point about children who are not secured in buses, particularly those who are standing.

96.

I was driving home one day this week and I heard a radio phone-in programme about this particular inquiry. One mother had spent the morning in hospital with her daughter, who had been travelling to school when the driver had to brake suddenly. The girl was standing and was hurled against a stanchion and hurt her arm. Thankfully her injury was not too serious, but she spent several hours in hospital and her arm was in a sling. Her mother made the point that if she had hit her head instead of her arm, it might have been a much more serious matter.

97.

Should we not cut away all the diluting elements in the legislation? When we get legislation that really tackles the question of safety, it should be implemented properly. Is there any reason, other than an economic one, for that not to be the case?

98.

Mr Ritchie: I have no reason to believe that the Regulations are not being implemented. I am not clear whether your point is about -

99.

Mr A Doherty: It seems ridiculous that Regulations are diluted for mainly economic reasons. The Chairman has referred to examples of 101 children being carried on a 53-seater bus. The most important point is that many of those children are standing. That is the type of load that needs attention.

100.

Mr Ritchie: We could look at whether standing should be prohibited. The difficulty is if you were to prohibit children from standing, you would have to prohibit all passengers from doing so. That could be looked at, but it would be difficult to follow in the urban bus environment where the whole thrust is to allow more people to stand. We could look at banning standing to improve safety on rural buses. Clearly there would be financial implications for Ulsterbus. No one is objecting - I am sure Translink are not objecting - to more money for more buses, if that is the answer to that particular issue. I am not aware that the regulations are not being applied properly, but I will look at it again.

101.

Mr Peoples: While, from a professional point of view, we are representing the Department at this inquiry, I am also a parent and my children go to school on buses. So, we have more than an academic interest in the safety of schoolchildren. Coincidentally, my child was left standing at the roadside recently because the driver would not permit standing passengers. So, we also need to be aware of that issue. Drivers admit standing passengers who would otherwise be left at the roadside.

102.

Mr A Doherty: Human nature being what it is, I would rather stand on a bus than stand in the rain.

103.

Mr Ritchie: Bus drivers and others have written to us to express concern about the issue of leaving children at the roadside on winter mornings. The temptation, within the law, would be to pick up that child. On rural routes it may be an issue of capacity and that would be a matter for Translink.

104.

Mr Martin: While the Department lays down the basic rules for transportation on buses, there is nothing to hinder service providers and service contractors from ruling that children should not stand - if they are willing to pay for that.

105.

Mr Ritchie: Education and Library Boards, as we already know, do not permit standing on their buses and that also applies to the buses they hire. The issue pertains to scheduled services.

106.

Mrs Carson: I am not particularly happy with the replies I have heard so far. I hope I am wrong, but I feel that you have not fully appreciated the Committee's concerns. These are not frivolous questions, and this is not a frivolous exercise. I speak from my experience as a teacher in rural primary schools.

107.

In some of Mr Ritchie's replies he talked about the issue of standing on buses. It might be acceptable to stand for short journeys in urban areas, but with the closure of many rural schools, a lot of children have to travel greater distances. Buses with fewer seats and more standing room would not be acceptable. We also have a lot of younger children travelling - four or five year olds. They must be given seating. You have got to think of rural runs as well as urban runs. You cannot treat them in similar ways.

108.

There is also the difference between the two types of buses you mentioned - those used by the education and library boards, in which the children are seated, and those used by local authorities, in which they travel with ordinary passengers. The issue of children travelling on one type of transport, or another, or both must be looked at.

109.

It is a great problem, about which we are concerned. Two Committee members have said that we do not want to wait for a disaster to happen. In the summary to your submission - and it came from a one-day joint management training seminar - you say that the existing school transport system currently demonstrates structural and systematic shortcomings which need to be resolved. That is contained in paragraph 8.1 in the summary.

110.

Mr Ritchie: I do not recognise that.

111.

Mrs Carson: It is paragraph 8.1 of the 'Memorandum by the Department of the Environment to the Environment Committee - Public Inquiry into Transport used for Children travelling to and from School.'

112.

Another problem is that if you have teaching staff on the buses, the little children - the "angels" - will sit down and there will be virtually no antisocial behaviour. However, when there are up to 101 children on a bus with a driver, antisocial behaviour is a problem which must be addressed.

113.

I know there is a cost. However, you are duplicating bus runs in a lot of areas - if I understand the information from the education and library boards correctly - because children from different schools will not travel together on the same bus. Is that still the case, or has it been changed?

114.

You have a lot of background work to do, Mr Ritchie, and I feel it has not been finished.

115.

Mr Ritchie: I do not treat this as a trivial matter and I hope there is nothing I or my colleagues have said which would give that impression. The Department is genuinely looking forward to the recommendations from this inquiry and to implementing them. We are here to explain the regulations, how they are applied and how we have arrived at this situation. We are not complacent about this; if there are recommendations that should be brought in, I am sure our Minister will deliver those.

116.

I am a little confused about the bus runs. The Department sets the regulatory framework, but it is the operators and the education and library boards that determine routes of buses et cetera - the Department of the Environment does not have a role in the duplication of buses and bus runs.

117.

Mrs Carson: But you have to inspect the buses?

118.

Mr Ritchie: Yes, from a safety point of view.

119.

Mrs Carson: How many bus operators have breached the regulations over the past five years? How many vehicles have been inspected to find out the number of passengers they are carrying over the past five years? Mr Martin talked about the situation in South Down, but has the whole of Northern Ireland been covered?

120.

Mr Ritchie: Mr Martin has some statistics, but you read from a summary which I did not recognise. Is that someone else's summary of our paper? If someone will show me that paper I will come back to you on it.

121.

Mr Martin: We carry out roadside inspections of buses and we normally inspect about 700 a year. During that period, there have been 10 instances of excess passengers being carried. That is 10 out of 3,000 vehicles - a very small percentage. The majority of those would have been one, or possibly two, passengers in excess.

122.

Mrs Carson: In excess of what?

123.

Mr Martin: In excess of what the legislation allows that vehicle to carry.

124.

Mrs Carson: So instead of 101, there were 102 children?

125.

Mr Martin: Highly unlikely, we may have had 76 instead of 75. Ulsterbus says it carries 75, we may have had 76.

126.

Mr Ritchie: Some vehicles are authorised for 22 standing, others for eight, so if there were nine children standing there would be an excess load. Those instances are identified, but they are very small relatively.

127.

The Chairperson: What exactly are these legislative allowances? Are you talking about the limit of 101, or 75 or 79?

128.

Mr Martin: We are talking about the 101 limit.

129.

The Chairperson: The 10 "breaches" you referred to cannot be breaches, because you described them as breaches of the legislative allowance. The legislative allowance is 101.

130.

Mr Ritchie: That is the case for buses carrying children under 14 years old. The instances that Mr Martin is quoting relate to all of Northern Ireland, and do not necessarily involve groups of children under 14.

131.

The Chairperson: On the other hand, they could include groups of children aged under 14.

132.

Mr Ritchie: Absolutely, they are also breaches.

133.

The Chairperson: If you want to be specific, we are happy with that. But please base your argument on something which is not specific to us. We are trying to get to the bottom of this and we need help to do that. Mrs Carson has identified something, and when she asked you about it specifically, you told her that there had been 10 breaches. When she asked if they were breached of the 101 limit, you reverted to the 79 limit. These are not breaches of the legislative allowance.

134.

Mr Martin: On breaches of legislative allowance, 75 is an Ulsterbus -

135.

The Chairperson: That is correct. Breaches of legislative allowance were what Mrs Carson was identifying, but you moved the goalposts. Let us stick to the actual facts.

136.

Mr Martin: I will give an example. During our operation in February we found an education and library board bus with one extra passenger on board. All were seated but one extra passenger was being carried. That bus was exceeding its passenger limit.

137.

The Chairperson: You talk about the legislative allowance of 101. Where would you find space for an extra person on a 53-seater bus? How would you get 102 onto it?

138.

Mr Peoples: Perhaps I could clarify how we arrive at the standing capacity -

139.

The Chairperson: They must be on the rack!

140.

Mr Peoples: Many buses are not permitted to carry standing passengers at all. The Department, at the annual test, will determine whether a bus is suitable for standing passengers. If it is, a fairly complicated formula is used to determine how many standing passengers it may carry. To achieve the 101 passengers, referred to in the example, involves the use of a 53-seater bus, its maximum standing capacity, and schoolchildren under the age of 14 occupying all the seats on a "3 for 2" basis. However, there could be variations in seating or standing capacity within that, depending on the individual construction of the bus.

141.

The Chairperson: I do not know how you could physically get 101 children onto a 53-seater bus, no matter how it is constructed. I do not know where you could put them.

142.

Mr Peoples: As far as the determination is concerned, we do not work on the basis of 101. We work on the basis of the number of seats, using the "3 for 2" rule. I asked my children recently whether they have been able to sit "3 for 2". Trying to use that system, they are physically unable to get onto a seat. The children that we are talking about must be contained within the seat. They therefore must be very small children - not large children or teenagers.

143.

The Chairperson: You know that that is not factual, and is not the case across the country. Children are sitting on the edges of seats - if they can get on them at all. They are not sitting within the bounds of the seats. Life is not like that.

144.

Mr Peoples: Regarding the legislation, if people are going to break the law by flouting it in that way then it does not matter what the size of seats or the number of passengers is. If we had two people to a seat and people decided to add a third, we would have the same difficulties of enforcement.

145.

The Chairperson: Are the people who are having to stand being paid for - or are they being transported free of charge?

146.

Are they treated differently from those who get seats? They are having to stand, holding on to railings and clogging up the centre of the bus.

147.

Mr Peoples: I do not know what the situation is in relation to education and library board buses, but for normal service buses, as used in the cities, a standing passenger is regarded in the same way as any other passenger for the purposes of a fare.

148.

The Chairperson: Many children who can hardly get in through the bus door are being paid for. They have passes to be on buses yet they cannot get a seat or near to a seat or rail. Overcrowding is not allowed when a church group is transporting young people. A church group must also provide supervision. What is the difference between a child going to a church and one going to a school? I am talking about a child in the same age group. Why is there the dramatic difference for insurance purposes? How, apart from some quirk of legislation, can these children be insured? They hang on to railings, and are thrown up the bus when the brakes are suddenly applied.

149.

Mr Ritchie: There is no guarantee of a seat on scheduled bus services. The fare is the same whether one gets a seat or not. There is no standing on education and library board buses, so presumably the issue does not arise for them.

150.

I agree with your earlier point, Chairman. I do not see how one can fit 101 children onto a 53-seater bus, but that is the ultimate maximum. Mr Martin's specific examples of breaches were probably not related exclusively to children travelling. It could be a scheduled bus service with one more standing than the eight allowed. If we could look at those statistics and come back to the Committee with some more detailed information on enforcement checks and the extent of overcrowding, that would clarify the discussion.

151.

The Chairperson: In answering Mrs Carson's statement, you made it clear that you are interested in hearing this Committee's recommendations. However, if the Department sees something wrong, surely it frames legislation and makes recommendations itself, rather than waiting to see what a Committee decides. If there is something wrong, can the Department not make pro-active recommendations on the issue? Does the lack of action on this issue show that the Department is satisfied with the situation? If it is not satisfied, how often have you dealt with this issue and proposals for change?

152.

Mr Ritchie: The Department can come forward with proposals to address problems identified. What I said at the beginning was that we operate a framework of parity with Great Britain within European regulations. No issues have been raised requiring us to revise regulations on safety grounds.

153.

Mrs Carson: The second part of my question has not been answered - how many operators have actually been prosecuted for breaching the regulations?

154.

Mr Ritchie: I am not aware of any prosecutions, although Mr Martin might be. Generally, it is a matter of advice, warnings and notices of prohibitions on vehicles unsafe at the time of detection. Are you aware of any prosecutions?

155.

Mr Martin: We do not hold those statistics readily available. To provide an answer, we would have to go through every operator's record over the last five years to identify when it had been prosecuted for carrying excess passengers.

156.

Mrs Carson: But you said that the numbers were very small, so it would not be too difficult a job.

157.

Mr Martin: It would still be difficult, and before coming here I spoke to my chief enforcement officer, who has been in his post for five or six years. We could not recall any occasion where an operator was prosecuted for overcrowding of a school bus.

158.

Mr McLaughlin: That is hardly surprising. We have heard your statements of concern. The people around this table are parents, so we all have similar concerns. We have also heard of the varying rules which apply to dedicated school transport in different circumstances. There are public-hire vehicles, and some boards operate voluntary codes against a broad legislative framework.

159.

Surely it is obvious, however, that enforcement is impossible. It is practically impossible to cover all the variables. That is why the statistics do not demonstrate the depth of risk. With all due respect to your enforcement officers - I am sure they are a very dedicated team - they simply could not have all the available information at their fingertips to deal with every conceivable circumstance they meet, either for public-hire vehicles or dedicated school transport. The vehicles themselves, as Mr Peoples told us in an earlier answer, can be individually tailored, and restrictions or advice on the number of standing passengers, and so on, can vary according to the design or state of repair.

160.

Obviously action must be considered in order to develop legislation.

161.

Surely, you know that the present legislation is not satisfactory, and that it needs to be changed. This conclusion must be staring you in the face.

162.

Mr Richie: On the enforcement issue, there are around 2,200 buses in Northern Ireland, and approximately 1,400 vehicles are checked annually. Those are targeted checks, not every bus is stopped. Checks are frequently based on complaints, but they can also take the form of covert operations or surprise checks at depots. A reasonable amount of checks are made on school buses and, if there were more enforcement staff, we could possibly do more, but the staff themselves are highly trained and are highly professional. Most of their work relates to road haulage operators.

163.

Mr McLaughlin: They have quite a range of responsibility.

164.

Mr Ritchie: Yes. Mr Peoples could elaborate on the possibility of developing the skills and qualifications of staff.

165.

Mr McLaughlin: I do not want to go on to that, I think that is a diversion. There could conceivably be a very significant accident, involving school children, since the legislation provides for such an eventuality. If there is no recent example of such an accident, let us thank God. But there is a very real possibility of an accident, particularly as traffic congestion problems increase. If this happens, people will ask why such an occurrence was not anticipated.

166.

The Chairperson: How many enforcement officers do you have?

167.

Mr Ritchie: There are fourteen enforcement officers, the chief enforcement officer makes fifteen.

168.

The Chairperson: Where are they located?

169.

Mr Ritchie: At Corporation Street, in Belfast, and at the Driver Vehicle Testing Agency centres in Ballymena and Craigavon.

170.

Mr Martin: You said it was difficult to assess whether the passenger load has been exceeded, because each vehicle is configured differently, but the approved number of standing passengers should be painted on the outside of that vehicle. It is not difficult to calculate the allowed number of children on a "three for two" basis: if there are three children to a double seat, you count the number of seats, divide that by two and then multiply the answer by three. This applies if the children are all under fourteen years of age. By adding that to the number standing outside, you will have the authorised limit for the vehicle. The enforcement officers with their experience, [interruption]

171.

Mr McLaughlin: I have never seen a bus being emptied by your enforcement officers so they can count the seats, and then count the passengers.

172.

Mr Ritchie: You do not need to empty the bus.

173.

174.

Mr McLaughlin: I did not get an answer to my first question, but can the Committee conclude that you are satisfied with the present legislation?

175.

Mr Peoples: The legislation applied here is not unique to Northern Ireland, it is enforced in Great Britain and throughout Europe. The "three for two" rule applies throughout Europe, including the Republic of Ireland, and also in many US states. Our difficulty is that in our statistics and technical papers, there is no evidence to suggest that current recommendations and the legislation are being changed in any other part of Europe, on account of safety concerns. We are talking about additional seat-belts on certain types of buses, but there is no indication that there is enough concern anywhere else in Europe to change the legislation relating to the standing rule or the three for two rule.

176.

The Chairperson: I am not surprised, because there are no vibes from the Department that there is any anxiety about the issue.

177.

The "3 for 2" rule dates back to the 1950s. Children are taller and heavier today than they were then, yet the same height and breadth statistics are applied, so that everybody is happy.

178.

Mr Ritchie: It is not that, it has to actually work. Large children that do not fit "3 for 2" on a seat cannot be carried in this way - it is not logical on a double seat. The regulations date from 1927, surprisingly. Children have changed somewhat since then.

179.

Mr Doherty: Rickets was the problem then, not obesity.

180.

Ms Hanna: Concerns certainly are being raised here today. Our main concern, beyond the question of seat belts, is about children standing. They may not hold on or pay attention - we all know what children are like - and what would otherwise be a slight injury, could become a serious one or a fatality. Drivers of school buses, no matter how well trained, are distracted by these children, particularly if there is a big crowd on the bus. We know how children can carry-on on buses. The provision of supervisors or conductors should be considered when children are being carried on a bus, as should sitting children two to a seat. Obviously, more buses would have to be provided if we were to put fewer children on a bus. We would have to consider the financial implication.

181.

Apparently a child aged under five, who is not occupying a seat, is not even counted as a passenger. The driver or conductor should have to count the children as they board. The legislation will have to be looked at.

182.

Mr Ritchie: We will be looking at it. As I said earlier, we look forward to the recommendations of the Committee.

183.

The Chairperson: We would be happier if you had shown that you have concerns. This Committee has received a lot of recommendations and documentation - no doubt the Department has too. Some told us they had contacted the Department but there has been no indication of this. The Department must take a more in-depth look at the issue, and not simply wait on this Committee to make its recommendations. This Committee also needs to make further investigations.

184.

I trust you realise that it is our job to tease out the thinking of the Department and the position, as it stands. However, the findings could well agree with what has been the practice across Europe, America or the other areas that seem happy about this system. However, that may not be the finding, and I would not like to prejudice our conclusion. We are open to everybody that makes presentations to us, to hearing what they have to say, and to making our judgement at the end of it.

185.

I thank you for you openness, frankness and honesty with us here this morning. I am sure you will be hearing from us in the future.

186.

Mr Ritchie: We are certainly aware of the concerns of parents on the issue of crowding on buses. Fundamentally the question is either one of safety or of having more buses. We look forward to the findings of the Committee.

Thursday 9 November 2000

Members present:
Rev Dr William McCrea (Chairperson)
Ms Hanna (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs Carson
Mr Ford
Mr McLaughlin
Mr Poots
Mr Watson

Thursday 9 November 2000

Members present:
Rev Dr William McCrea (Chairperson)
Ms Hanna (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs Carson
Mr Ford
Mr McLaughlin
Mr Poots
Mr Watson

Thursday 16 November 2000

Members present:
Rev Dr William McCrea (Chairperson)
Ms Hanna (Deputy Chairperson)
Mrs Carson
Mr A Doherty
Mr Ford
Mr Leslie
Mr McLaughlin
Mr M Murphy
Mr Poots
Mr Watson

Witnesses:
Mr A Rainey ) Western Education and Library Board
Mr B McClean ) Western Education and Library Board
Ms M Maguire )Southern Education and Library Board

470.

The Chairperson: Thank you for coming, we appreciate your presence. I do not know whether you want to make a joint or individual statement; we are in your hands.

471.

Mr Rainey: I would like to make a few introductory remarks before answering the Committee's questions. The boards regard the home-to-school service as one of their central functions. It is a high-profile service, constantly in the public view. We place great importance on safety in the transportation of children from home to school. It is a very large operation: Dr Browne mentioned an annual cost of £47 million for Northern Ireland. We carry over 100,000 pupils every day.

472.

In the Western Education and Library Board the cost of school transport per year is about £10 million. The overall budget for the Western Board's day-to-day running of schools, including teachers' salaries, is about £100 million. Getting children to and from school uses about 10% of the school budget. It is a cost- intensive service.

473.

The boards are always very conscious of the purpose of the exercise - they do not regard it merely as a means of transporting large numbers of people from one area to another. We always bear in mind the need to get children to school in the right frame of mind so that they can get the full benefit from their education. They need to be delivered to school in a dignified and composed manner, and we do our best to provide such a service. We try to ensure that they arrive home safely in the afternoon without being overtired from their daily travel. Safety, comfort and dignity are of particular importance to us.

474.

I have already mentioned the 'best value' review in which Ms Maguire has been particularly involved. The boards have embraced the principle of "best value" and are currently subjecting all their services to best value scrutiny. It is not without significance that the transport service was the first of the of the boards' services to be subjected to "best value" review. The overall findings of the published report made quite a number of recommendations for improving the service. It did not, however, call into question the quality and cost-effectiveness of the existing provisions. We see safety as being a fundamental aspect of quality.

475.

The boards have a good safety record, although there is, of course, no room for complacency. We are always ready to discuss ways in which our service can be improved, and we are particularly pleased to engage with the Committee.

476.

There are five separate boards, and there are variations in the ways in which they deliver their services. The Western Education and Library Board has a high proportion of yellow buses - the board's own fleet - because of the relatively low provision of public transport in the area. In the Belfast Education and Library Board's area circumstances are very different. The yellow buses operated by Belfast provide transport for special needs pupils. Pupils attending mainstream schools use the normal public service carriers. If you find it useful, we will explain the terms in which we are required to provide transport, for example, entitlement to transport. We appreciate that you are particularly concerned about overcrowding.

477.

We are conscious that isolated cases sometimes catch the headlines; for example, some weeks ago the ' Newsletter' ran a front page report focusing on one school's transport situation. There may always be isolated cases that need to be addressed, but it is important to see a balanced perspective of the service as a whole. Generally, the picture is one of a high-quality, safe service for the young people of Northern Ireland.

478.

The Chairperson: The Consumer Council stated that the legislation is outdated and potentially dangerous and that there is a need to abolish the "3 for 2" rule. Having listened to your presentation, you are saying that it is a case of quality without question. Bearing in mind the other competing demands on your finances, you do think that much needs to be done?

479.

Mr Rainey: We always accept that the situation and the standard of our fleets can be improved. We recognise that the quality of service would improve if a seat were available for every child. In our submission to the Committee, we recognise that there are strong arguments in favour of providing a seat for every child, if the resources are made available. The boards are happy to be fully involved in the development of services, if the resources are made available to provide that level of transport.

480.

Mr A Doherty: As a former member of the Western Education and Library Board, I appreciate the board's concern for the safety of children going to and from school. Considering the high response from parents, schools, councils and other organisations, there is still a great deal of unease about the situation. Can that be solved by throwing more money at it? You mentioned that you are reviewing your procedures. Is it essentially a financial matter, and can it be solved? Can those who are concerned be put at ease by financial solutions? Is behaviour on buses a big problem?

481.

Mr Rainey: With additional resources, we could provide one seat per pupil, and that is an aspiration we all support. It has been suggested that seatbelts should be fitted for every child.

482.

There would certainly be substantial costs associated with that, and it could be done if the resources were available. As far as that particular issue is concerned, we would have to accept that the provision of seatbelts for every seat would enhance the quality of the service.

483.

At the same time it is important to take account of the practical difficulties that would be experienced in requiring children to fasten seatbelts on a daily basis - it is not something that children are keen to do. We all know that there are practical difficulties in getting children to make use of seatbelts when they are provided. The minibuses that we operate have seatbelts, and there are difficulties in making the children who use them fasten their seatbelts.

484.

If seatbelts were to be fitted on larger buses, it would certainly be a practical difficulty from the point of view of the driver. It is not realistic to expect the driver of a larger bus to monitor the wearing of seatbelts. It would have to be considered whether an attendant should be provided for every bus to ensure that seatbelts were being worn, and there would be additional costs in that.

485.

The findings, which we have quoted in our response, would suggest that seatbelts are perhaps not as effective a means of improving safety as the new forms of crash-safety seating which we are ensuring are fitted in every new bus that we acquire. For the last five years we have been ensuring that all new buses are fitted with special crash-safety seating which helps to absorb impact in a collision.

486.

In our board area, within the past two months, we had - and you might indeed be aware of it, Mr Doherty, because it was not very far from your local area - an accident that could have had quite serious consequences. But, in fact, the children who were in the bus concerned escaped with very superficial bruising because of the effective operation of the crash-safety seating. We see that as a major contribution to safety, and we will continue to ensure that such seating is fitted in all new buses, as we replace existing ones. Unfortunately, the practicality of fitting such seating to existing buses would be a major problem.

487.

You mentioned the difficulty of behaviour on buses, and we have a constant concern about the possibility of bad behaviour on buses being a contributory factor through the possibility of distracting the driver. In the Western Board area we have taken certain steps to try to monitor cases of bad behaviour as we become aware of them.

488.

We have a number of buses that are fitted with video cameras, which can be brought into play if it becomes known that on a certain route there is a pattern of bad behaviour emerging. The video cameras are quite effective in helping to identify perpetrators and guilty parties, and we follow up particular cases of that kind with the authorities in the school concerned and, where necessary, with parents in order to try to nip difficulties of that kind in the bud.

489.

It is probably fair to say that behaviour on board buses is less of a problem than behaviour on public service buses. We would suggest that the reason for that is that on the board's buses there is an identified driver - the same driver drives the bus on the same route every day throughout the year. That driver builds a relationship with the pupils on the bus, and knows who the children are, so he or she can easily and quickly identify the perpetrators of problems.

490.

That is not the case on Ulsterbus services where drivers rotate from day to day and from week to week. Therefore, there is not the same opportunity for drivers to get to know the pupils on any particular route or for the driver to build a positive relationship with the children he is transporting.

491.

The Chairperson: Will everyone please keep their questions and answers as concise as possible so that anyone who wishes to speak may do so. If there is enough time, those who wish to do ask another question may do so.

492.

Mr Watson: What are the liaison arrangements between the Western Education and Library Board and Translink regarding the number of children at school each September and the provision of sufficient buses for them? I assume that you know the amount of children starting and leaving respective schools, and the number of bus passes that are to be issued. At the Translink presentation, its representatives confirmed that they were caught out in the Lurgan area with children travelling to the Royal School in Armagh.

493.

Mr Rainey: Yes. The Western Education and Library Board seeks to have a close working relationship with the management of Ulsterbus and that relationship operates on a daily basis. Brian McClean is a former Ulsterbus manager and he maintains a close working relationship with his colleagues in Translink on a daily basis. He will outline the particular difficulties that are experienced each September.

494.

Mr McClean: Each June, the education and library boards send a list of school bus users to schools and ask them to identify those who will be leaving. The leavers are identified and the names of those who are staying at school are processed in early July. Problems arise because A level and GCSE results come out in late August, and some children decide to stay in the school that they are in. Therefore, in June, the education and library boards cannot accurately inform Ulsterbus who will be leaving a particular school. If a school offers A levels or GNVQs, pupils may choose to stay at it, and others may move to further education or elsewhere. The further education colleges do not enrol until about the second week in September, and they have a phased-in enrolment over one or two weeks.

495.

Therefore, at the start of a school year Ulsterbus is told who the core travellers will be, but there will be numerous pupils who have not made up their mind or have not enrolled. Ulsterbus's problems arise when figures like 101 and 98 come up. That is usually during September. There are not any more children - they just are coming from different routes from where they came from the previous year. Ulsterbus uses September to fine-tune the service.

496.

If I receive a complaint from a school, parent or stakeholder, I ring the local Ulsterbus depot manager and the problem is normally addressed, if not that afternoon, by the next morning. Their staff go out and see what the problem is.

497.

Sometimes there are problems. For example, there are 11 buses that travel from Londonderry to Limavady. If all the children at Ballykelly chose to wait for the last bus in the hope that they will not get on it and have a free day, the driver is placed in an impossible position. He is not in a controlled environment such as the school, bus station or town where there is an inspector. That will happen during September, but it is not a regular occurrence. Ulsterbus normally responds to those occasions, and the problems are resolved because the Western Education and Library Board has a good working relationship with it - as do the other boards.

498.

It is not in anyone's interest to have overcrowded buses but it may happen during September.

499.

You will find that the school load is not usually a problem in the afternoons when all the school activities are on - football, rugby, Gaelic football,and so on. The children have a range of services to go home on from 3.30 pm to 6.30 pm. In the mornings, not every pupil travels in because their parents may be going into the town. Very often the season ticket is a lifeboat, just in case a lift is not available. If we keep saying the figure 101, everyone will think that there are 101 people on every Ulsterbus bus. I can assure you that that is not the case.

500.

The Chairperson: Are you saying it never happens?

501.

Mr McClean: It can happen on occasions, like at Ballykelly where all the kids hang back. Human nature being what it is, if there are four buses on a route, and one driver is having a bad morning, he might drive past the children. The buses behind will then be more crowded. The Ulsterbus inspectors address those problems.

502.

Mr M Murphy: On the issue of bad behaviour on buses, we must all recognise that we are dealing with children. There is an amount of horseplay, not bad behaviour, on buses. That can distract the driver. I have always maintained that buses should be supervised, not by video cameras, but by a proper supervisor. That would allow the driver to do his job.

503.

Mr Rainey: If it were possible to have an attendant on every bus, I have no doubt that that would certainly enhance the quality of the service. However, it would greatly increase the operational costs which would have to be borne by the public service. Generally, the standard of behaviour on buses is reasonable. I agree with what you say about having to accept horseplay with children. Generally speaking, the standard of behaviour is not a serious problem, but in some areas there can be difficulties on occasions.

504.

Mr McClean: I have brought a video for the Committee. It is from one of our buses which filmed children from an unnamed school in the Western Board area. It is to let you see what really happens, especially with primary school pupils. Primary school pupils will not sit in their seats. I will leave it with the Chairperson. You do not know the school or the pupils, but it will give you an idea of what it is like travelling on a school bus at 3.00 pm.

505.

The Chairperson: I hope that nobody sitting round the table sees their grandchildren.

506.

Mr Poots: I am a little disturbed that the figure £41 million is being quoted today. It has been quoted both by you and by the previous witnesses. Last week, this figure was quoted by the people from the Department for Regional Development. It was made up of £12 million for removing the need for standing passengers, and £2 million to change the "3 for 2" principle. When I questioned the regional development officials on how £12 million plus £2 million made £41 million, their explanation was that Translink had provided them with the figures. I would like to challenge these figures, for it is going into the public domain that it will cost the taxpayer £41 million extra to improve public transport for school children, when the figure is actually £14 million.

507.

Secondly, most of the people that have made representations seem to rely heavily on the statistics of the number of children killed in the past and the fact that not many children have been killed on school buses. I indicated to previous speakers that statistics about seatbelts in minibuses were often used before 14 children were killed on the motorway. They were presented on the safety of riverboats before the sinking of the Marchioness. Virtually every summer there are two to three bus accidents on the continent in which huge numbers of people are killed. Is your board prepared to sit back and make recommendations based not on what could happen, rather than on statistics of what has happened in the past? Will you wait until a tragedy happens in our Province and then implement measures to stop children being killed in the future?

508.

Mr Rainey: We are not sitting back. As I said earlier, we are not convinced that seatbelts are the best way of improving safety, because of the practical difficulties. On enforcing the wearing of seatbelts on a day-to-day basis, we have pointed out the effectiveness of new forms of seating which could potentially absorb impact, thus lessening potential injuries. Improving the interior of buses in an effective way has considerable merit. As I said earlier, there recently was an example in our own board area of how that type of seating considerably lessened the seriousness of injuries.

509.

Mrs Carson: Thank you. This information is interesting. You said, Mr Rainey, that the new seating would not require seatbelts. However, if the children will not sit in the seats, there is still a problem. I understand your problems, as I used to be principal of a country primary school.

510.

Page 9 of the submission, which deals with misconduct on buses and vehicles, states that it is a

"legal requirement to provide transport to 'facilitate a child's education at school'".

511.

Therefore you have no ultimate sanction. I would like you to expand on the last sentence that states the

"boards would welcome any legislation that would assist operators in providing a safe environment for everyone".

512.

I would like to know how you would deal with that. We have talked about bus transport, but another problem - for both a country and a town primary school - is that taxis bring children to school. I have looked at all the different answers you have given on page 8 about insurance cover, et cetera. I may have missed it, but have we the figures for the number of children transported by taxi in Northern Ireland? What problems have you encountered?

513.

You say that checking the operators' details takes up a lot of time and would cost more money. That is not good enough - we need to check them. As with Translink, a problem with taxis is that children do not know the driver because a different one turns up each day. Is that also a problem?

514.

Mr Rainey: Dr Browne mentioned earlier that it is the responsibility of Department of the Environment to decide buses' loading capacity. If that Department were to review the loading capacity, the board would welcome any legislation.

515.

Mrs Carson: I think that as you are the people operating at the coalface, you should have some suggestions to put to the Department, because they Department is more distanced from the problem. So, I would welcome your suggestions to both the Committee and to the Department.

516.

Mr Rainey: In relation to the numbers carried in taxis, Ms Maguire has figures that have been assembled in the course of the fundamental review.

517.

Ms Maguire: Our review was carried out in the 1998/99 year on just over 100,000 pupils. At that time there were about 4,000 pupils carried by taxi, of which more than half were children of special educational needs. Our review highlighted a number of concerns which you have already related to in terms of change of driver and whether we have the resources to ensure that the taxis come up to all necessary legislative requirements, and so on.

518.

Our review also highlighted the need for to examine the leasing of minibuses as an alternative to taxis. We had concerns, for example, in relation to child protection. On every journey - regardless of whether it is a taxi, a board bus or a Translink bus - there will at some point be a last child on that vehicle and, in fact, perhaps there should never be a situation where there is a single child alone with a driver.

519.

There are difficulties with taxis on matters such as the changing of routes. Again, it really depends on the rural nature of Northern Ireland, where the children live, whether we can have the maximum use of a taxi in terms of the number of children, and so on. But it is one of the more costly means of transportation that the boards are using.

520.

Ms Hanna: I do appreciate that there are many challenges in organising school transport, but maybe you could address some of them between the schools and the parents. I would welcome a decision on the seatbelts and with the crash barriers.

521.

But we are still left with our main concern about children who have to stand. I wonder whether, if the children's risk of accident may be affected, the Human Rights Legislation may come in to call there. You also mentioned that 10% of the budget went towards public transport - are you concerned that if you had additional resources allocated that that would come out of your overall budget?

522.

Mr Rainey: As you know, the boards are 100% funded and do not have an opportunity to raise any money on their own initiative. All our funds come via the Department of Education. If there were a change in the legislative requirements that made it necessary to use additional buses and incur additional expense, the boards would certainly be seeking that additional cost directly from the Department of Education. It would be impossible, from the board's point of view, to meet such additional costs from within the resources currently available without significantly adversely affecting the quality of education in the classroom.

523.

The Chairperson: In your report, you referred to a 'best value' review of school transport carried out during 1999/00. You specifically referred to the findings of the quality and cost effectiveness of existing board provision - which is similar to the view taken by Translink. Where does the safety of children really come into that?

524.

Mr Rainey: Safety of children is a fundamental feature of the quality of the service that we provide.

525.

The Chairperson: But it is one of the features - it is not paramount. Cost-effectiveness is one as well.

526.

Mr Rainey: The boards would certainly - and I can speak for all five of the boards - consider the safety of children as the paramount consideration in the arrangements that are made for school transport.

527.

The Chairperson: Yet still, you have not made representations to prevent children standing in the aisles, or to change the "3 for 2" rule.

528.

Ms Maguire: I want to confirm something. I put together much of the report and the review's findings. We consulted with approximately 125 principals in the Province and over 600 parents from across the five education and library boards. All of the concerns raised in questionnaires, focus groups, meetings with principals, et cetera, were put into the report's findings. Safety was an issue, but many other issues, which impacted upon the quality of service, were raised too. They included matters such as entitlement and whether a child can attend a school within two miles of its home.

529.

Parents said that safety was paramount, but they recognised - as the boards themselves do - that there is a balance between what the boards pay, or should pay, for transport, and what is available for teaching and providing classroom resources. The review's findings were that safety was not the greatest concern.

530.

The Chairperson: We would appreciate it if you could send the Committee a copy of the report.

531.

Ms Maguire: Certainly, I have a copy here that I can leave with you. From the point view of the 'Best value'review, it was not just about saving money. We made approximately 80 recommendations, many of which will cost money, for example, the reference to an attendant on every vehicle.

532.

The Chairperson: The findings probably also reflect the fact that parents were not told that the annual cost per child of transporting them to school was £381 compared to £515 in Scotland. I do not believe that parents had this information.

533.

Ms Maguire: In all fairness, our consultation took place at the same time as we were gathering facts and figures on costs and the different processes in Scotland, England and Wales. Dr Browne stated earlier that there are economic forces which impact upon our transportation costs. You will see from our report that that is not restricted to comparisons with how things are done across the water. There are differences in that regard among the five education and library boards. One reason might be, to use the example of taxis again, that they can be acquired at a more economic rate in Greater Belfast than in Omagh or Enniskillen. There are not enough firms in places such as those to tender for the business and undercut each other. That is obviously not the case for public or board transport.

534.

Mr Rainey: I want to make the point that higher costs do not necessarily mean higher quality. It is sometimes difficult to know if you are comparing like with like. It was mentioned earlier this morning that a considerable proportion of the services provided in Northern Ireland are provided through the normal stage-carriage public transport system. That is one contributory factor to the lower costs.

535.

Another factor which needs to be borne in mind when making comparisons, is that the cost per pupil for those children transported by board buses does not reflect the depreciation element of the capital cost of replacing buses. Those costs are not included in the cost per pupil figure for children carried on yellow buses. Therefore we are not necessarily comparing like with like when contrasting Northern Ireland's figures to those across the water.

536.

Mr McClean: There is one aspect that has not been raised. I have completed a detailed analysis of our bus duties in Fermanagh and Tyrone, where we depend primarily on yellow buses. I excluded minibuses and special care vehicles because they all have one child per seat.

537.

There are 78 buses operating in Fermanagh which are not special care. Of those 78 buses, 31 would not be affected by legislation requiring us to allow only one child per seat. However, 46 buses would be affected, and we would have to get some additional vehicles. In Fermanagh, we would no longer be able to convey some 314 concessionary travellers. In Tyrone, strangely enough, we have the same number of buses - 78. The legislation would have no impact on 23 of them, but 55 would be affected and some 507 concessionary travellers would no longer be conveyed by school bus. We convey concessionary passengers when we have seating for them, but if the rules prevent us from seating "3 for 2", that will mean that some primary school children will end up walking, cycling or being driven to school.

538.

The Chairperson: How would concessionary travellers be affected?

539.

Mr McClean: Some children live within statutory walking distance of a school and do not have a transport entitlement. However, if there is a bus coming in with seating available, it would be less than equitable not to convey such children to school. Such a service fulfils an important social function if both parents are working. We have a significant number of concessionary travellers, especially in the Western and Southern Board areas where we have larger fleets. The more buses there are, the greater the opportunity for taking on concessionary travellers. There will certainly be an impact on our greening policy, for there will be more children going to school in cars.

540.

Mr Rainey: It is important to emphasise that such concessionary seats are available only on the yellow buses - the Boards' own fleets-or on sub- contracted services. On public service routes operated by Ulsterbus, there are no concessionary seats. The "3 for 2" rule applies particularly to the boards' own fleets of buses, because they are mainly transporting primary school children and it is those children who tend to be seated on the "3 to 2" basis.

541.

The Chairperson: Translink's figures suggest that disallowing standing passengers, without removing the "3 for 2" seating rule, would cost £14 million, and that abolishing both the "3 for 2" system and the provision for standing passengers would cost £41 million because of the additional buses that would be required.

542.

Mr A Doherty: This matter may lie outside your direct control. During periods of inclement weather, some roads are gritted but others are not. Do you see that as a serious safety problem? How would you tackle it?

543.

Mr McClean: It is a nasty problem for parents. We leave it to the driver to decide whether the road is safe for conveying children. Some drivers will not try and others will do their utmost to get down the road - and, sometimes, I would prefer it if they did not because, invariably, they end up in a ditch and we have to tow them out. We want to get children to school, but it is the drivers who judge the safety of a road on a particular morning. We raised the matter with the Department of the Environment some years ago. I can think of principal bus routes that Ulsterbus operates and which the Department of the Environment just will not grit, despite our requests for them to do so.

544.

The main route from Drumlegagh to Omagh, on which one 53-seater bus travels on each morning, is not gritted. I do not expect every minor road in the Sperrins to be gritted, but there are certain main routes that the Department of the Environment refuses to grit. They argue that they would need another lorry for to do that. It is a safety factor - every year we are involved with minor road traffic accidents that are due to the non-gritting of roads.

The Chairperson: Thank you all for your forthrightness in answering the questions. Our questions must have exercised your minds, and the Committee, when going through the whole summary of the events of this enquiry, will carefully look at your responses again.

Witnesses:
Mr S Bradley ) St Mary's High School, Limavady
Mr G Reilly ) Limavady High School

545.

The Chairperson: I am sure that you are aware of the legislation involving the numbers of children travelling to and from school, which has been drawn to the attention of the Committee. The Committee has been trying to tease out two major issues with everybody who has appeared before us: one is the safety of children travelling to and from school and the other is the quality of service that they get. These two issues are amongst a number that we need to bear in mind.

546.

We thank you for taking an interest in the issue and helping us in our deliberations. Following your initial statement, the Committee members will ask questions. This is not only an informative session; we hope to deal with the real heart of the problem. At the end of our deliberations with the different groups, we can make a recommendation to the Department, if it is felt that changes are necessary.

547.

Mr Reilly: We feel that this is an important issue. I am principal of Limavady High School and my colleague, Mr Sean Bradley, is principal of St Mary's, the maintained school. In Limavady, we exist cheek-by-jowl and we have an extremely harmonious working relation- ship. Although we speak from a Limavady perspective, the issues are replicated across the Province.

548.

This is our second visit to the Assembly in two weeks. We had the opportunity to address the Education Committee informally. We are here today to deal with the same issue - the problem of dealing with the minority of pupils who are badly behaved and disaffected. It is a minority; the vast majority of children are fine. Badly behaved pupils cause difficulties for us in school, under supervision and in a formal classroom setting. When they are travelling unsupervised on school buses, it causes us major headaches. We want to ensure that all children travel in safety and that other road users, who may be driving along behind school transport, are also travelling in safety.

549.

Limavady has four post-primary schools, serving an area from the Waterside area of Londonderry through to Coleraine. Our two schools alone have in excess of 1,600 pupils. Approximately 1,000 of them travel to our schools by bus each day. That does not include the number who travel to the local grammar school and the further education college. Limavady is a small town, and many pupils travel into the town every day. In our case, Translink is the only provider of transport - we do not have the yellow board buses in our area - and it is under contract to the Western Education and Library Board.

550.

Mr Bradley: Overcrowding is the issue about which we receive most complaints from parents. The contract that Translink has with the education and library boards is based on a "per pupil" basis. That means that the smaller the number of buses in which they can transport pupils from A to B, the more cost-effective it is for them. That is fair enough. However, there can be severe overcrowding. In addition, regulations allow a bus - as opposed to a coach - to have 22 standing and, if the pupils are under 14 years old, three to a seat. Thus a normal 54-seater bus can legally have 85 or 86 people on board.

551.

We are all aware of transport systems throughout the world where people stand on their way to work, especially in big cities. In Limavady, we have pupils from a largely rural community travelling anything up to 18 miles - the distance from Strathfoyle to Limavady. It can be a long and arduous journey, taking 35 to 40 minutes, during the morning rush hour and, again, between 3.30 pm and 4.00 pm. Having 22 or 23 young people standing for that time will lead to problems. In my paper, I mentioned misbehaviour, bullying, vandalism, and sectarian taunts and fights. In that respect, Limavady is no different from any other area. I stress that 95% or more of the pupils travelling on those buses are well behaved, but a small minority takes up an inordinate amount of our time and that of Translink.

552.

I feel sorry for the bus drivers. They are doing their day's work, driving a heavy vehicle on a busy road and they could have over 80 pupils to supervise at one time. There are no other adults on the buses, and that is one of the main causes of the problem. It can endanger other road users and cause stress for drivers. There are disciplinary problems arising from such situations.

553.

The most common form of accident occurs when children rush forward unsupervised to get on a bus. The bus driver approaching the stop must either stop early or halt in the middle of a group of children. There have already been accidents this year in some rural areas.

554.

I should like to highlight the difference between the Translink contract and the service provided by education and library board buses. Education and library board buses are smaller and easier to manage. In rural areas, they tend to have a local driver who knows the local families and is, therefore, much better at disciplining pupils. There is also the concessionary fares system. In our area if a board bus has a free seat any pupil is entitled to it including those who live within three miles of the school. That does not happen with Translink. If a pupil lives within three miles of the school, he or she must pay.

555.

The main anomaly in the Limavady region - I make no apology for raising it - relates to the King's Lane area in Ballykelly. Ballykelly is a village situated some three miles from Limavady. It is a totally different entity, and no one in his right mind would send his children out in the morning to walk from Ballykelly to Limavady. The first housing estate in Ballykelly is King's Lane. The distance has been measured by Translink and the estate was found to be within the three-mile limit for Limavady High School and St Mary's. The children do not get a free pass, and their parents must pay. Fortunately for those who attend Limavady Grammar School, which is slightly further up the road from us, the distance from King's Lane to school exceeds the three-mile limit and children get a free pass. Some people would say that is discrimination, and others that grammar school pupils are already given advantages by the present system - I shall not bore you with that argument. That situation has existed for as long as I have taught in Limavady, which is nearly as long as Mr Doherty did. That was an appeal on behalf of the Limavady area, but the issue has wider validity. Different areas of Northern Ireland have different school transport systems.

556.

The Chairperson: Thank you. You have certainly given us something to question you about. There was an emphasis on behaviour problems; it was nearly at the top of your agenda. Why did you put that so high?

557.

Mr Reilly: We are trying to develop a bigger partnership in the Roe Valley area. Social inclusion is high on our agenda, and we are working together on strategies to keep the highest possible percentage of young people in education, or if they disengage from it for a period, help them to re-engage. In all schools, a percentage of young people have disengaged from and become disaffected with the standard statutory Northern Ireland curriculum. As I said, we had the opportunity to speak informally to the Education Committee about that. The transport issue is part of that bigger picture. We feel strongly that inadequate supervision on transport to and from school will undoubtedly have an impact on the behaviour of pupils when they are in our schools.

558.

One of the issues that concerns us and, I am sure, most other school principals, is the fact that we are expected to adjudicate on the misbehaviour of a minority of pupils when we have absolutely no legal supervisory rights on those buses. Nor do I - Mr Bradley can speak for himself -wish to have any statutory supervisory rights on buses. We are mandated to run educational establishments to do the best for young people. Translink is the carrier and is responsible for the health and safety of the pupils that it carries, including times when things go wrong. We have a moral responsibility to be supportive of Translink in that context.

559.

We need a school travel strategy for Northern Ireland that will help us to know where we stand as educators in relation to inappropriate behaviour on school transport. There has always been such behaviour and we think that it may be increasing. Fireworks for Hallowe'en are on sale in this corner of the world again - I wish they were not, but they are - and we have anecdotal evidence that fireworks and smoke bombs have been let off in buses creating horrendous potential for accidents to other road users and injury to pupils. Sometimes, because of overcrowding windows on buses are quite easily pushed out. Seats are dislodged or there is aggressive behaviour. Drivers are not trained to deal with up to 80 pupils on one bus. If something is going on at the back of a bus that even a school teacher in a class of 30 would find difficult to control, drivers are expected to deal with it.

560.

If all pupils were perfect, sat on buses and behaved themselves, we would not have a problem or need to speak to you. Dealing with inappropriate in our schools and on buses causes great stress. It is at the top of our agenda for improving quality and protecting the majority of pupils.

561.

The Chairperson: In the submission from Translink, it says: "Ulsterbus does not often utilise the maximum legal capacity of our buses."

562.

The legal capacity is actually 101, although we have received information from Ulsterbus that contains the following table:

Seating capacity 53

'three for two' capacity less six 23

standing capacity 22

TOTAL 98

563.

The report also states that:

". this is the maximum capacity Ulsterbus would recognise."

564.

Translink also said that:

'The guidance to all our managers is that when the loading of a particular vehicle regularly exceeds 75, irrespective of the children's age, they must seek an alternative solution."

565.

In your submission you said:

"Some buses in our area are allocated up to 90 pupils."

How does that go with the direction from Translink?

566.

Mr Bradley: In our case - as I mentioned in the preamble to the submission - the main area of overcrowding is the Limavady/Derry Road. Eleven buses travel from just outside Waterside - a place called Strathfoyle - all the way down that road, through Eglinton, Greysteel, Ballykelly to Limavady every morning to the four post-primary schools, including the college of further education.

567.

In the morning, Translink operate a policy that pupils get on the first bus that comes along. However, pupils, for one reason or another, do not get on the first bus - they stand back talking to their friends, or whatever. There is no actual allocation per bus, just a number of buses to cope with the number of pupils. So, as the year goes on, the later buses get more crowded than the earlier ones. We had a particular problem in Strathfoyle, and Translink met parents in Strathfoyle and me in an attempt to get something done. That is the morning run.

568.

The evening time is different, because schools stop at slightly different times and the buses come to the schools, although there are still some shared buses. The biggest group of pupils travelling to my school comes from the Greysteel area, which is just before Eglinton and Strathfoyle. Over 100 of my pupils travel from St Mary's to Greysteel. Between Greysteel, Eglinton and Strathfoyle, I have 243 pupils and I am allocated 3 buses. That is just over 80 pupils per bus. Translink would say that, as there is football on a Monday, camogie on a Tuesday, detention on a Wednesday and there will always be a few absent, there never will be 80 on a bus, but it does happen.

569.

Each September, the inspector from Limavady and myself spend hours on the bus line, moving people between buses. We take some off the Greysteel bus and put them onto the other buses. We have even issued coloured cards, over and above the Translink pass. Even with that, in the case of the Greysteel bus, for example, the number of pupils can be in excess of 80. There are local solutions, but they are ad hoc and no one is guaranteed a seat. My number for Strathfoyle is 76, although they are not all Strathfoyle, because I have some Greysteel in that to alleviate the situation. There are 76 pupils with a pass to travel the 18 miles to Strathfoyle on a 54-seater bus. That is an example of a local solution.

570.

The Chairperson: We will develop this further. We will now ask some questions.

571.

Ms Hanna: You have obviously talked to Translink. Have you asked them about having a supervisor or conductor on the bus? Have you talked to the parents about bad behaviour?

572.

Mr Reilly: Yes, I like to think that we are pro-active. I have had meetings with parents about particular problems and meetings with local Ulsterbus management, with whom we have a very harmonious relationship. We have been exploring what we can do together to resolve disciplinary issues. It has not been hammered out yet - [Interruption].

573.

The Chairperson: Telephone calls cannot be taken in Committee meetings.

574.

Mr Reilly: We are working on a system with parents and Translink staff, if something goes wrong on a bus, and we have not got the evidence to put a child off the bus, I would be reluctant to suspend a child from school for misbehaviour on a bus. I do not think I can do that, to be honest. We would like Translink and the Western Education and Library Board, who are paying Translink to carry the children, to use some sort of yellow card system. The school could say that the matter is under investigation and, although the right to travel has not been automatically withdrawn, pupils who are found to be a danger, in their behaviour and attitude to other road users and bus passengers will be refused the right to travel. We feel that parents would support that. We are discussing how we can improve that situation in our area. Of course, at the end of the day, it does come down to what Translink can afford - that is the baseline. If we were to get exactly what we want, it would have major cost implications.

575.

In the old days, there was a conductor on the bus who knew the pupils. That was helpful, but now there are different drivers on routes every week and they do not know the pupils, and the pupils do not know them. Kids being kids, will test the new driver; when a driver pulls up, they say "It's Mr so-and-so, there will not be a problem today." We could talk to Translink about training drivers to prevent situations from escalating, and in practice for loading and unloading passengers and checking passes. Little things can blow up into enormous problems. For example, every day for the past four weeks, pupils boarding the bus in Eglinton village to go to Limavady were not asked for bus passes. Then, an officious driver got on to check passes and found that six boys did not have them, thinking that they did not need them. That is when a confrontation blows up. We need to sit around the table with Translink and board staff to hammer out procedures. We are trying to tackle that.

576.

Mr Poots: It is interesting that your view seems to be in conflict with Translink. You have given us evidence that 243 pupils travel on three buses. Although that may not be the case every day, it is an average of 81 pupils per bus. It is likely that at least one of those buses is carrying more than 75 pupils. It is not in the legislation, but Translink has said that its policy is not to carry more than 75 pupils, so it is interesting that that conflict has arisen.

577.

You said that many of the injuries were caused in the loading and unloading of buses and, particularly, in the rush to catch the bus. What is the nature of those injuries?

578.

Mr Bradley: Over the years, injuries have varied from very serious to minor. The most recent case was about three weeks ago in Strathfoyle, when pupils rushed forward and the rear wheel of the bus went over a pupil's leg. That pupil was hospitalised and there have been other cases: a girl had her leg crushed, and a first-year boy had his foot crushed. All those cases happened in the past four years. The bus driver cannot supervise loading.

579.

The kids are not rushing to get to school, they are rushing to get a seat. The first passengers on the bus get the seats, and the rest have to stand all the way to Limavady. We met Translink to discuss that, and they diverted a bus to help alleviate that situation. However, their position is still the same: even though 80+ pupils have been allocated to a bus route, there will sometimes be less, and an inspector will be sent out from time to time to check that.

580.

During our discussions with parents, it was pointed out that the Ulsterbus regulation may allow 22 standing, but that Ulsterbus has a code of conduct that guarantees that no one will stand on a bus for more than five minutes. An education and library board officer pointed that out. Ulsterbus is in conflict with its own code of conduct. It may be that school children are considered less important than other road users and require less comfort and, maybe, less safety. We object to that.

581.

Mr Poots: It is perhaps on the periphery of our remit, but behaviour on the buses is an important issue. What powers do bus drivers have in this age of litigation? Say a couple of young fellows are behaving badly and the bus driver pulls them apart, or whatever, and one of them gets hurt. You said that you have sympathy for the drivers. What can they do in such situations? What powers do they have?

582.

Mr Reilly: That is a key question that is often raised. What they tend to do if there is misbehaviour at the back of the bus - and it is usually at the back of the bus - is pull in to a lay-by, stop the bus and confiscate passes in the general area of the back seat. They used to, in some cases, return the bus to school and hand the passes in to me. We have managed to get that one stopped. You can be sure that at 5 o'clock that afternoon my phone will be red hot with parents complaining that their son has been blamed, by implication, for doing X or Y on the bus, and that the bus driver has taken his pass. I object to that. I tell them to ring Ulsterbus and talk to them about it. In my view, that is the only thing that a bus driver can do, and even that limited power leads to untold difficulties.

583.

Mr Bradley: The business of responsibility is a difficult one. Parents have a responsibility to send their child to school. It is the responsibility of the education and library board to ensure that there is free transport to school if they live more than three miles away. Where they employ Translink to operate a contract, it becomes the responsibility of Translink to operate that service safely.

584.

As on all buses, the drivers have a difficult job to do. Ultimately, all they can do is not carry the person. It would not be acceptable to set a young person of 11, 12 or 13 years of age down at the side of the road because they were misbehaving at 4 o'clock in the afternoon. There is very little the bus driver can do.

585.

I differ slightly from Mr Reilly in that I do suspend pupils for misbehaviour on buses. We just do it differently in different schools. Our point is that as the school transport service develops in Northern Ireland, there will have to be a code of conduct for users and operators. That will have to involve a contract between the pupil and the company, an agreement by parents to abide by it and some form of punitive measure, on a rising scale of punishments, so that eventually the board might set aside a particular pupil's right to free transport as a result of misbehaviour.

586.

Mr Poots: Some of the pupils at the back of the bus, who would be mostly lads, are actually bigger than the bus driver. There is a certain degree of reluctance for a bus driver to try and deal with these situations, given the danger to him.

587.

Mr Reilly: Absolutely.

588.

Mr Bradley: In the Derry area last month, a bus driver - this was not on a school bus - was fined for assault on a passenger. Knowing the passenger and the situation, I saw the bus driver's dilemma; he was acting, as he thought, in good faith. He ended up being fined in a court of law for doing what he thought was right.

589.

Mr McLaughlin: Let me congratulate you on the quality of your presentation and the obvious benefits of the harmonious collaboration that you described.

590.

The legislation covering the number of children and their safety, among other related matters such as insurance, is within our remit. Have you made formal representations to the Department, the board and Translink on numbers and safety? Have they responded officially? Is it possible to give some indication of how those three bodies deal with the issues of the number of children travelling and safety?

591.

Mr Bradley: We have not made formal repre- sentation to the Department of Education. Maybe it is a measure of the benefits of local democracy, but this is the first occasion that we have felt welcome to come along and make a provision like this. The board in our area is currently engaged in a process of best value, and transport is one of the first issues they have addressed. I am on one of the working committees. In that way, we have made our views known directly to the Western Education and Library Board.

592.

I have received no formal report on any change in the regulations, other than on the financial situation. The old County Tyrone Education Authority had its own buses, and when it became the Western Education and Library Board it kept them. Our area was subject to the County Londonderry Education Authority, which did not have its own buses. It used the Ulster Transport Authority (UTA). The contract was continued with Ulsterbus, as it became known, and then Translink. I only realised the difference last year, when I served on that committee. I had not been aware that concessionary fares existed.

593.

To be fair, the board would say that its bus fleet is ancient and that it does not have the money to replace it. It does not have the capital, and there are faults in that system. I am not saying that it is perfect, but there are benefits to the board controlling its own buses. The Western Education and Library Board employs the drivers, who are usually local. The buses are usually smaller. Those are the sorts of differences.

594.

As one of the parents from Strathfoyle pointed out on the night of our last meeting, her son has a free bus pass. Translink is paid for 190 journeys per year - the number of days that the school is open - whether he goes or not, and nobody in Translink checks up. It is paid the fee for those journeys whether that pupil travels or not. She wanted to know if she could claim back the days he was absent, which of course she could not. The two contracts are funded in different ways.

595.

Mr McLaughlin: I was asking about numbers and safety.

596.

Mr Bradley: The numbers on board the buses are smaller, as the buses are smaller. Regarding Translink, I would have received exactly the same answer as you would have. When we raise it with Translink, we do it at a local level. We usually deal with Mr Tony McDaid, the area manager in Derry. He makes an effort to ensure that the numbers are as small as possible. He has often said, in public meetings with parents and schools, that if the board gave him the money he would put on another bus. He has to work within his budget and within the law, and he is working within the law as he sees it. If Willie McCluskey is in our school yard in the evening and we get on the bus and there are more than 75 pupils, he will take some off and put them on to another bus.

597.

Mr Reilly: At a local level, we have raised the issue with Translink and with the Board. It is only now that we are beginning to be listened to. This sounds very critical, but it is not meant to. At a local level, the local managers do the best they can to manage a difficult situation. In my view the local service will never change until there is a strategic change at provincial level. That would be the remit of the Committee and of the Assembly.

598.

We will always have the numbers quoted to us. That is what we are allowed to do within the law regarding numbers. When a safety issue arises, it will come back to the school for us to make a decision on what punitive action we are going to take with the pupil who caused the problem. That is where we tend to disagree. I feel that because neither my staff nor myself has a supervisory role, nor do we have any evidence - we only have hearsay of what happens on a bus - it is inappropriate for me to suspend children, unless they are causing a problem within the school as well.

599.

We need to take a tripartite approach wherein the carrier, the board - in our case, the Western Education and Library Board - and the school agree a code of conduct for buses, in terms of the numbers that can be carried and a reasonable expectation of good behaviour that ensures the safety of all road users. That is the point that Sean made. That has to be articulated to all parents, and everybody has to be clear on the action that will be taken if that code is breached. We are only now beginning the process that will eventually bring that about.

600.

Mr Watson: My question has been more or less answered. You have eleven buses coming in on the Limavady/Derry road every day. What is the average number of passengers on those buses?

601.

Mr Reilly: The numbers vary from morning to afternoon. In the morning, the buses pick up whoever is waiting at the stops, so we have a mixture of pupils from different schools. We have 163 pupils travelling on that road, but there will also be Limavady Grammar School pupils and those from Limavady College of Further and Higher Education.

602.

Mr Bradley: I have 243 who come from Greysteel or beyond. I also have 50 or so from areas like Ballykelly, Sistrakeel and Glack. We do not have accurate figures for the eleven buses in the morning, because the other schools are involved, but we could get them.

603.

Mr Watson: How many are standing for the whole 18 miles?

604.

Mr Bradley: It varies. As the bus moves down the road, more and more people get on. This is where pupils vote with there feet. If the bus pulls up at, say, Nicholl's shop in Greysteel and there are no seats left, the pupils do not get on. They are supposed to get on, because the system only works if every bus is filled up as it comes down the road. By "filled up," of course, Ulsterbus means that the seats are all full and that there are some passengers standing. So there tend to be up to 22 standing on the last buses, and they can be from a mixture of schools, which has on occasion led to slight problems.

605.

Mr Reilly: The buses that travel from Limavady to Coleraine schools have a very significant problem, for the same reason. My son made that journey for some years. Every night he would come home and say "I could not get a seat and I am stinking of cigarette smoke," - he had a great antipathy to smoking - "we were crammed on the bus; there must have been 100 people on that bus, because it was the last one out." He was one of the laggards, as I would call them, who wait for the last bus in order to get to school at the last minute. The situation is replicated throughout the Province.

606.

Mr Bradley: There is another problem arising from the mix of pupils on the morning buses. Further education colleges allocate their classes and courses slightly later in the year than mainstream schools. In the first week of September, Limavady College would still be in the process of setting up its classes. That means that for at least the first three weeks in September, Ulsterbus cannot determine how many Limavady College pupils will be wanting to come down the Derry road. They put on a certain number of buses and see how it works, and they measure it and talk about it. There can be vast overcrowding for those first three weeks in September, until they bring on an extra bus. Bringing on an extra bus is a last resort, because of the cost.

607.

Mr A Doherty: I should declare an interest; not a pecuniary one, more of a nostalgic one in the case of Mr Bradley's school and a friendly one with Mr Reilly's school. I had the pleasure of spending 20 years at St. Mary's, so I have a direct but rather dated experience of school transport. I saw it develop and change over the years. As a horrible example of the early times when double-decker buses were used, I had the experience of watching children open the back emergency window on the top deck and sit with their legs dangling out. If the bus had braked, God knows what would have happened. The drivers still have problems.

608.

Mr McLaughlin: I cannot imagine you in short trousers.

609.

The Chairperson: You were probably the one with the legs dangling out.

610.

Mr A Doherty: I am old enough to have worn short trousers at 14. Nowadays they are out of them before they reach 14 months. That is just an example. The Chairperson and I found it significant that six of your first seven points were directly related to misbehaviour and disciplinary problems. Do you feel that there is a direct correlation between the current school transport situation and those problems - problems that a better system would mitigate?

611.

That brings me to your interesting vision statement, which expresses an ideal that is far removed from reality. Many of the points that you have made have already been made during our discussions with the boards and other groups. You present a picture which we all aspire to. I presume that you have not put these recommendations directly to the Department. Do you feel that they should be put, either by yourselves or another group, and assessed with regard to both practicality and cost? Obviously, the cost of implementing them would be tremendous. Would there be sufficient benefits to warrant a big chunk of the schools budget being used to bring them into effect?

612.

Mr Bradley: Yes, it would require a hunk of money, but I would not go as far to say that it should come out of the schools budget. As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that it should not. I have raised these matters with Ulsterbus, particularly the seat belt situation, because that is another anomaly. When I send out a team to play a gaelic football match in Ballinascreen, I hire a coach. I have to put all the children in a seat and put seat belts on them. I must also put a teacher on the bus. Going to play a match costs good money from my school budget. There are different regulations for coaches and buses. Our view is that, as a result, children are suffering somewhere along the line.

613.

I had an interesting discussion with Mr Tony McDaid, who had, I think, visited America and looked at their school bus system, which is highly developed. They have specially designed school buses. He said that their behaviour is no better than ours, but I am not so sure. He claimed that disaffected pupils cut the seat belts off when they were introduced. I have no doubt that that would happen with some pupils, and I have no doubt that whatever we do, there will still be misbehaviour on some buses.

614.

The American system also allows for road situations, and, again, this is an area where the Department of the Environment would have particular legislative powers. When a school bus, which by law has to be coloured yellow, stops and puts on its hazard warning lights to indicate that it is loading and unloading pupils, all other traffic must stop - it cannot pass that bus. That may be going to extreme lengths, but they are putting the safety of the children first. That is the sort of vision we were thinking of. A school bus should be seen as something to pay attention to and something where there might be danger. Translink's record on accidents is actually quite good, considering the number of pupils it transports every day and the conditions under which they are transported.

615.

There is also the behaviour issue. We feel strongly that behaviour will be better if a pupil has a seat and is belted in.

616.

Mr A Doherty: I think that the low accident rate is a tribute to the drivers, not the system. The question of seat belts for every pupil has been raised with the board and with Translink. One of the arguments was that even if there are seat belts, how do you know that they are being used? I know that in some private cars there is a red light that goes on, or somebody tells you that your seat belt is not on. I suppose that that could be used. It would put another pressure on the driver.

617.

Mr Reilly: I understand the problems of enforcing that, but the vast majority of pupils - let us think of the jug as being half full, rather than half empty - travel to school safely. We have to protect their safety. Surely a parent should have the right to expect that their son or daughter has the same opportunity to belt up on a bus as they do in their own private car. I would still say that the vast majority of pupils would use the seat belts.

618.

I would like to raise the issue of video cameras on buses. Obviously there is a huge cost implication there, but in my experience, if there is a video camera on a bus it controls behaviour. I have direct experience of that from a previous school. Surely it would not be an impossible dream for all buses used on school routes to be fitted with video cameras. I would have thought that that was attainable. It would be a one-off expenditure, rather than a recurring one, in the absence of a bus escort. In the ideal world you would have somebody in a role similar to the old conductors, as we said earlier. I think it might be financially out of our reach, but we should be exploring the possibility of video cameras.

619.

Not all bus routes have this problem. In local areas, if there is proper dialogue with the different partners, surely we can look at those routes that are - I hesitate to use the term "contentious" - causing most difficulty and, therefore, put appropriate resources into those to try and ensure health and safety, and numbers et cetera.

620.

Mr M Murphy: You say in your submission that you would like to see escorts built into contracts, but you mentioned elsewhere that it would not be cost-effective. Have you approached the Department about that? Have you pointed out to it that the safety of children should be the number one priority, rather than cost?

621.

Mr Bradley: Not the Department as such, but the education and library board, yes.

622.

Mr M Murphy: Right. Let me turn to the three- mile limit. Have you made a recommendation, especially in rural areas, that children should be picked up and should not have to walk three miles to school?

623.

Mr Bradley: First of all, it is a minority issue. There are not a lot of children involved. But in a rural area -the area between the village of Ballykelly and the village of Limavady is open countryside - it is just not feasible for a child to walk. Mr Doherty will know that the three-mile limit is measured with a trundle wheel and parents in one street get a free pass while parents in the next street do not. That is not fair. We have raised it time and again and got nowhere.

624.

Mr Reilly: We think it is unfair that pupils who attend our schools do not get a bus pass, because they are just inside that three-mile limit, yet they could be living next door to someone who does.

625.

The Chairperson: Mr Hesketh told us in evidence: "We have made our views very clearly known to the Education and Library Boards. We have said that we are effectively disregarding the '3 for 2' rule and operating to adult capacity except in exceptional circumstances."

626.

Mr Bradley: I agree with that. I have found it to be the case that when you have a conflicting situation, it will be quoted to you on the ground. But in the main, they do stand that one down. I have found that Ulsterbus inspectors do their best to be helpful, but they are caught in the budget trap.

627.

Mr Reilly: Absolutely.

628.

Mr Bradley: There is another issue that was raised by a staff member from my school after we made our submission. There would be an environmental cost to having 22 buses on the Derry road rather than 11. At the moment we are getting away with 11 buses, which is only 11 engines creating 11 sets of pollution. If we double the number of buses to address the safety issue, the Environment Committee will be attacked from another direction for increasing the number of buses on our roads. The teacher who raised that was very keen that I should tell you that this particular area of school transport, which is in a way a controlled transport situation, is wide open for an innovative and imaginative transport system which does not use the "infernal combustion engine."

629.

The Chairperson: In the past, we have dealt with a lot of brickbats from all directions. We are trying to deal with a very important issue, and we want to deal with it sensibly and realistically. Having heard your evidence, we will certainly take careful note of what you are saying.

630.

We have to ask ourselves two major questions. Is the present legislation, which permits 101 children on a bus, safe for children travelling to and from school, and is it ensuring that children get a quality service? We must keep those two issues in mind, as other issues are now evolving.

631.

Thank you for your presentation and your submission, and also the manner in which you have answered the questions. I assure you that we will sift through it carefully.

Witnesses:
Ms A Rowe ) Principal, Strangford Integrated College Mr V Tullin ) Strangford Integrated College Transport Committee
Mr S Turner ) Strangford Integrated College Transport Committee

632.

The Chairperson: We are delighted to have Ms Rowe, Mr Tullin and Mr Turner with us this morning. Thank you for the presentation that you have forwarded to us. We will give you the opportunity to make an initial statement and then we will go to questions.

633.

Ms Rowe: Strangford Integrated College is a young college and has just started its fourth academic year. We opened in 1997 with 64 children, and we now have 329 - a fairly rapid growth. That growth has brought us certain problems with pupils travelling to and from school. As principal, I have done my best to liaise with the South Eastern Education and Library Board and Ulsterbus. I am aware that children from age 11 onwards are very difficult to handle. As a teacher of 27 years' experience, I realise that there are times when they can be quite "naughty" on the way to and from school. We have chased up all those things and the bottom line is this; our buses coming to and from school are often overcrowded.

634.

Up until this autumn, we felt that we were working anecdotal evidence. All integrated colleges have to have a parents' council, so I threw the problem back to my parents' council. I asked them to be constructive and realistic and to collect evidence about what exactly was troubling them. They were very methodical about monitoring the volume of pupils on the buses. They sent out questionnaires to parents in the early part of the autumn to gather pupil and parent views about travel on Translink. At the same time, we encouraged parents to write to people such as yourselves, Ulsterbus and the South Eastern Education and Library Board, instead of coming straight back to me. That is where we have got to today.

635.

Mr Turner and Mr Tullin will embellish what I have said, but that is the bottom line. My one concern is that one day there will be an accident and someone will be hurt. I have attended the funerals of two children that I have taught in the past 27 years; I do not want to attend any more.

636.

Mr Tullin: I am on the parents' council and I was given the job of collating the information that was gathered from different bodies. We contacted Translink. Some of their district managers were helpful, but some were reluctant to deal with parents instead of the principal. We found, from our dealings with Translink and the South Eastern Education and Library Board, that they also have children and concerns about them and, although they have a job to do, they understand our concerns. It is their job to put the transport on the road to get the children to and from school.

637.

We have had a few incidents involving injuries. As recently as three weeks ago, a child was injured on a bus, but not through misbehaving. The bus braked suddenly and the child, a standing passenger, was crushed against one of the upright bars by the weight of the people behind her and damaged her funny bone. She was taken to casualty. That is one of many incidents, some minor but some a bit more serious. We have tried to collate evidence to confirm and corroborate the story.

638.

The response to our questionnaire revealed confusion and surprise. The majority of students and their parents did not realise that 101 was the maximum legal capacity for a bus. In one incident, a window popped out of a bus from the Newtownards depot: it was just lucky that no children popped out behind it. That was caused by the sheer volume of people on the bus. Translink have made a verbal commitment to keep the numbers down to 75. That is good and we accept it. At the same time, if there are seventy-five adults on a bus, that means 53 seated and 22 standing. If they are going to their work, they will be standing with their newspapers, umbrellas or briefcases. As Mr Poots said, some children are as big as the drivers. A child of 11 or 14 travelling on a bus with school requirements - a schoolbag, PE bag, home economics bag and possibly a musical instrument - could be carrying up to four items to school. We check what children carry to school. We try to ensure that they only take the books necessary for the day's lessons. We have sent notes home. Teachers go round and check bags to confirm that the books in that bag are required for that day only. People are starting to complain of sore backs caused by the weight of the bags carried by children. Children also have a habit of throwing a bag over one shoulder.

639.

We try to address all concerns, try to be open about a situation and not to work on hearsay. I was always taught not to believe everything you hear in school; we do not believe everything we hear at home either. We try to follow up on any information that is given to us. We will continue to do so.

640.

Mr Turner: The parent's council has had meetings with Translink and are trying to solve the problem. We have the verbal assurance that they will not exceed 75, but we realise that drivers are under pressure at times to exceed that; children have to get to school. We have movement from Translink on altering the bus times to alleviate overcrowding, especially on the Bangor run. In that case children were waiting for the later bus, which was coming in quite close to the legal limit, whereas the first bus was coming in with maybe 20 or 30 children on it. Translink changed the bus times, and has worked with us to improve the situation. However, the school will get bigger and we want to clarify what will happen in years to come with Translink. As Ms Rowe said, she does not want to attend a child's funeral. We do not want any problems on the buses and we want to work with Translink and the board to alleviate the problems.

641.

Fundamentally we, as parents, are looking out for our children. The concerns of Translink and the board are secondary to us. We are not taking a hard line or arguing about things like how a bus driver can control 75 children. How can he? Can he control 53 children sitting on seats? That argument could go on forever.

642.

We have collated information to establish how many children are on the buses and how many children should be on the buses. How many seats are allocated for each run? In some cases, the buses on a run will adequately cover it, and, in other cases, the buses will not adequately cover the run. Translink are gambling that either parents will take their children to school or that children will not go to school. The day that all the pupils go to school by bus, Translink will have a problem. We will also have a problem because the buses will exceed the limits, even the verbally agreed.

643.

The Chairperson: In one of the documents given to us, Translink points out that it is legal for up to 101 children, under 14 years of age, to travel on a 53-seater bus. They asked whether that was safe. I quote the response: 'National road safety statistics confirm that the safest form of road use is as a passenger in a bus or coach. Previous studies of the 'three for two' rule in Great Britain have concluded that there was no safety case to answer and continuation of the clause did not constitute a safety hazard'

644.

Translink's response is based on a report by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents which was quoted in the House of Commons on 14 December 1993. What have you got to say about that?

645.

Mr Turner: In the questionnaire that we sent out, via the children, to the parents, we asked whether they knew that that was the legal limit? Nearly unanimously, they did not, and they were shocked that it was so high. We also asked whether the children felt safe on the bus. None of the children said yes. They felt that they were being crammed in. In some cases, they were standing beside the driver. Translink will tell you that passengers should not be past the yellow line at the front of the bus, but we have witnessed children sitting in the front windowsill. We had a case documented where a child fell off the bus when the door opened.

646.

To say that they are not legally required to put 101 children on the bus is fair enough - it may be difficult for them to get 101 children on it. As a parent, I do not feel that it is safe. I would not want my child being the 101^st child to get onto a bus. If that were the situation, I would say, "No, she is not going to school" or I would take her to school myself. On a frosty morning, the problems for a driver, whether in a car or a bus, are greater. A bus is a difficult thing to drive along a country road. If you put 101 noisy children on it, the driver's concentration will be affected. I would be concerned about having that number of children on a bus.

647.

Ms Rowe: If we were a primary school, I could understand that number. However, we have children of 11 who are six feet tall. We have a great rugby squad in year 11, many of whom are of considerable size. Victor has talked about the things that they carry to school. If we were a primary school, I could see the sense, but we are not - we are a second level college and the children are growing.

648.

Mr Poots: You said that a child injured her funny bone on a school run. Was that reported, and will it appear in official statistics as an injury?

649.

Mr Tullin: I have a copy of a hand-written letter from the parents. The child was injured by the sheer force when the bus braked. The parents were called to the school and took the child to accident and emergency. The child was given painkillers to alleviate the pain, sent home and was off school for two or three days. When the parents reported the incident to the police in Newtownards, the reaction of the police officer at the counter was to snigger at the idea and ask what he could do about it. I know the little girl who was injured - she went to primary school with my son before they moved up to the same college. That little girl is less than four-feet tall and weighs about five stone, if that. She is frail.

650.

By the time the bus gets to Donaghadee, where these children are picked up, it is full. Bringing in a bus for the same route from the Bangor station alleviated the pressure. Instead of going the Six Road Ends direction into the country again, the bus came through Millisle and Donaghadee to pick up the excess passengers, in an attempt to split the load between two buses. The incident was reported to the committee and the parents have reported it to the police. They have contacted the depot that the bus left from, and they are writing a more detailed letter to Translink management, from whom we have had no response as yet. To date, we have had two replies from Translink following the volume of complaints made by parents.

651.

My son was threatened by a driver. Our question- naire asked for "yes" or "no" to be ticked. However, people started to add footnotes, and some parents decided to write on the back of the A4 page. Many parents considered the attitude of Translink drivers and staff towards their children and other children to border on the aggressive. The children describe the drive to school as a roller coaster. That was why the bus window popped out. I reported a bus to Newtownards police station for travelling in excess of 70 miles an hour on the route from school to Newtownards. At the time, I did not realise that it was a Strangford College bus, but I knew that there were children on board so I reported the incident. I have no qualms about that, because these are our children.

652.

You would have to see some of the situations that they are put into to believe them. On a bus that is hurtling along a road, the children who are standing and their schoolbags and whatever else are loose baggage. If I was to take my child down the road without a seat belt on, I would be prosecuted or, at the very least, given a ticket and a fine of some description. I do not see why I should leave my son to that bus. I have witnessed my son getting on a bus and not getting a seat, depending on which of the two buses coming through the town he gets on. I can only respond to situations that I know about, and I will provide details as honestly as I possibly can. The manager was very helpful and he agreed to look into the situation. My son had got on the bus to come home. The bus was sitting at the turning circle. We have a turning circle so that the children do not leave the school grounds; they are watched getting on the bus before they leave the grounds. My son sat down. He reckons that there were 25 to 30 people sitting. Some people that he knew from Donaghadee got on, but got off again after speaking to the driver. He had walked towards the front of the bus and seen the number on the bus - B2 - so, he just got straight on. He knew that it was the Donaghadee bus. The other children had come from behind the bus, and asked the driver for the information. When my son tried to get off where he normally would, the driver told him that the bus was not stopping in Donaghadee, and that he would not be able to get off until Groomsport, which is six miles further down the road.

653.

We are adults. We could cope with information like that, but to an 11-year-old at a new school, taking a bus journey that he was not used to, this information was frightening, to say the least. The driver did not stop at the bus stop. He drove a little bit past. OK, it was only about four bus-lengths past, but it give my son the impression that he was being taken six miles down the road. As a parent, I am not happy with that. I do not believe that any person should treat a child in that manner. However, it is happening, and when it is investigated by managers or inspectors, it is a watered- down event. That driver admitted that he discouraged children from getting on his bus by telling them that he was not stopping at Donaghadee. When I heard that, I demanded a written apology to my son for the driver's behaviour. I got a letter of apology and a watered- down version of the event, saying that the driver did not believe that he had threatened my son, but that he did discourage children from getting on the bus. We at the school were not aware that we had an express bus to Holywood. That is where that bus was actually going that day.

654.

We have children from as far afield as Holywood, Dundonald and the Newtownards Road. We do not have a catchment area, because we are an integrated school. We are in a rural area. We want our children to be taken to school safely and brought home to us in one piece. I do not want a phone call telling me that the bus that my son travelled on is lying on its side in a ditch somewhere. I came over the Craigantlet hills this morning and I witnessed a car on its side. God forbid that that should be a bus containing 100 children, or even 75 children. The 22 children who are standing are like loose eggs in a basket, and they are going to be smashed to pieces.

655.

As a parent, I want to have children seated. Incidents do happen on buses, including misbehaviour such as items being thrown up the bus. Two incidents were reported to us by Translink and the children responsible were suspended, after an investigation. We will do our best to cope with misbehaviour if it is brought to our attention. At the same time, we think that such incidents might not occur if children were seated. It is a psychological thing: if a child can be identified, he is less likely to commit an offence.

656.

The Chairperson: We will not be investigating individual cases.

657.

Mr Tullin: I understand that, but I had to give you examples.

658.

The Chairperson: I appreciate that, but I do not want anyone to get the impression that we can investigate individual cases. It is the principle that we are examining. Can Members keep their questions short?

659.

Ms Hanna: The more people we listen to, the worse the situation appears. Did any practical solutions emerge from the responses to your questionnaire? I am referring to such issues as ensuring that the earlier buses are filled.

660.

Mr Tullin: The questionnaire showed that people wanted extra buses put on to alleviate the loads being carried on particular routes. Parents said that they had contacted the bus companies, but the information that they gave had not been logged. They said that the bus inspector was telling them that they were the first callers to make such a complaint. We continue to emphasise to parents that they must follow up their phone calls with a written confirmation of the complaint. According to the bus companies, a complaint will not be logged unless it is made in writing. No acknowledgements of the receipt of complaints are sent to parents and, in most cases, they do not even receive a phone call.

661.

Ms Rowe: The staff at the Bangor depot have been more than helpful in trying to re-route journeys or altering times. I advise pupils, via form tutors, that if they are staying behind in school for a particular activity, they can take a connection through the village and do not have to go on the school bus. There are practical measures that can be taken. Some days are worse than others.

662.

The problems are compounded by the fact that, without prior warning, we are doubled up with another local school because a problem has arisen - for example, someone has rung in sick. That is a case of logistics, and I can understand that; it is like organising a timetable - if somebody is absent, you double up two smaller classes. Equally, however, the knock-on effects are much more serious.

663.

Mr Doherty: I suggest that you change one word in your presentation in the interests of public perception. You state that buses regularly operate at "optimum" capacity with pupils standing. Normally, people take the word "optimum" to mean the best arrange- ment. The word "maximum" would be more appropriate.

664.

Mr Tullin's account of witnessing a bus travelling at 70mph is alarming, in view of the fact that we have heard from Translink and other bus service providers that bus drivers are not permitted to travel at more than 59mph on a motorway or dual carriageway. What type of road were you were on?

665.

Mr Tullin: It was a road leading to the school at a junction called Four Road Ends, near Carrowdore. It is a straight, fast road. I had reached approximately 69mph and the bus was still accelerating, so I backed off and decided that I had been close enough to get a description of the bus. I reported the incident to the police.

666.

Mr Doherty: You were wise to do that. Do you know whether any action was taken? Was there a follow-up investigation?

667.

Mr Tullin: I also reported the incident to the bus depot. I had a meeting last Friday with the depot managers of Ards, Bangor and the district manager. The incident was brought up and the depot manager said that he had no recollection of a report having being made of that incident. I then spoke to a staff member at the depot, but it is obvious that although incidents are reported to them, the information is not collated. The staff are very loath to confirm if a report or complaint has been made and then confirm it back to us.

668.

Mr McLaughlin: I congratulate you on the structure that you have developed and on the very close co-operation between parents and the school; that was reflected in your presentation. One of the characteristics of school transport is that the load carried by a bus will increase along the journey to school. The reverse would apply on the homeward journey. The normal pattern of public transport is one of passengers getting on and off the bus at different stops. Have you discussed with Translink and the board a different level of provision for the morning period, when the journey to school is made, from that for the return journey? Is there any way of contracting the time between buses?

669.

Ms Rowe: It would be wonderful if we could get children to school earlier. As you know, children work better first thing in the morning, and this is a factor in the design of a school timetable and curriculum. It would be great if we could start some activities first thing in the morning. For example, at the moment, we have to organise our school day to commence at approximately 9.15 am but if we could start at 8.30 am in the morning, much more could be done.

670.

The idea of redesigning school times has not been touched upon, although I would like it to be examined. In the past, I mentioned the idea to the school but I was told that there would be no way of getting buses or drivers, and that I was hitting a blank wall on that issue. However, such a plan would be a constructive way forward, possibly helping Translink, as well as ourselves.

671.

Mr McLaughlin: Are the same number of buses contracted for the morning as for the afternoon?

672.

Ms Rowe: Yes. We are a growing school and we will have nearly 400 pupils next year, so we will need more buses. I hope that I am not here this time next year saying the same things. I hope that we will not be lumped in with other schools and that we will be allocated separate buses for our routes. That might help with Translink's problems, but it does certainly not help with ours.

673.

The Chairperson: What are your thoughts on the guarantee of a seat for each child and the provision of safety belts?

674.

Ms Rowe: That would be a wonderful develop- ment. I do not want to go into the history of Strangford College, but for the first two years of our existence we were an independent integrated school and we had to organise our own transport. We had a contract with McDermott's in Portaferry, who did guarantee each child a seat with seatbelts, which was brilliant. Parents were happy, there were very few incidents of bad behaviour on the bus, and the children settled down with their bags, made their journey to school and came back. That would be the best possible situation.

675.

The Chairperson: Did you find any difficulty in enforcing the use of seatbelts?

676.

Ms Rowe: No. As school teaching staff, we have always taken an interest in the buses. Children are supervised as they get off the buses in the morning and on to the buses at the end of the day. In fact, I am teaching physical education this afternoon and my first task will be to ensure that the children sit down and put their seatbelts on. They are used to this routine and seatbelt use only has to be enforced occasionally. Therefore, that would be the best solution for us.

677.

The Chairperson: Mr Tullin, what were the results of your survey in which you monitored the volume of pupils being carried on buses?

678.

Mr Tullin: I do not have those results here because I only got the paperwork last night.

679.

Mr McLaughlin: With baggage.

680.

Mr Turlin: With baggage. I mean, that is the point. It is the baggage situation that we are looking at. At the end of our report we were looking for each child seated, with a seatbelt. In an ideal world that is what everyone is looking for, the safety of your child to and from school. But our report showed that some numbers were exceeding our expectation, while on certain routes, at certain times when children had other periods to go to, numbers were surprisingly low.

681.

The Chairperson: If you have those results we would appreciate if you could let us have them because they would be of help to us in our further deliberations on the matter. I think that maybe it would answer some of the other statements that have been made, whether by Translink or the Department; it would give them the clear impression that it was very, very, very exceptionally that anything that this occur.

682.

Mr Tullin: We will forward them to you.

683.

Ms Rowe: When the children are given their placements in May as a result of the transfer procedure, one of the very first things that parents are sent is a pink form from the Education and Library Board to fill in to explain travel arrangements and so on. That is one of my jobs as well. So, Education and Library Boards know well in advance where the children are coming from to a particular school, and that is the bit that I can never understand. If you know you have got 40 children from one particular area this year though last year you only had 10, then it seems to me that there is something kind of missing here. But perhaps that is just us.

684.

Mr McLaughlin: We have been over that ground.

685.

Mr Turner: We have one that mathematically could come to school with 90 children on it every day. That is simply because that is how many bus passes are on that route. Between parents bringing them to school and absenteeism, while we did the survey, that bus only carried a maximum of 79 children. Now, we only carried out the survey for a week, but on the biggest day we had there were 11 children not weighing in, and on other days it was sometimes as low as 63 or 64 children. And yet there are 90 children from that route in the Portaferry area.

686.

In the Ards area there are about 130 children spread across two buses. That is alright if we get 65 children per bus. Both buses leave from the Depot, so, in some cases children will have to come down from the Newtownards Road, from the Craigantlet Hills, Comber and even further afield from that. They get to Ards for, at the very latest, 8.45 am to get that bus. Children obviously decide that as there is a second bus they will just weight in late, and we wind up with the second bus heavily loaded.

687.

In the Bangor area there are 110 children. That area is now being controlled because they have changed the route to cover the bus. Those buses are now only five minutes apart, but they are coming from two totally different areas, one from Holywood and one from Bangor. At the start of next year the situation will change with more children coming to the school.

688.

The Chairperson: Well, we have certainly heard some clearly identified problems from the different groups that have come to us, especially from outside of the Department and outside of Translink. This is where we are getting some of the problems clearly identified. That is important and is why I asked if you could forward us the results of that survey, as that would be helpful.

689.

I thank you all very much for coming. Your evidence has been most helpful and informative and we deeply appreciate that. We are looking at a very important issue. I am sure, by the manner in which we are treating this, and the evidence that we are pulling in, that we want to be as extensive as possible, and treat it seriously and professionally. Ms Rowe mentioned at the very beginning that you wanted your reaction on this matter to be constructive and realistic, and that sums up our intentions in the matter as well. We have to be constructive and also realistic. Certainly, there are serious matters for this Committee to give careful attention to.

690.

I thank you for the part you have played.

Ms Rowe: When I next speak to our parent body I will tell them of your interest and concern. I know, from the phone calls and deputations that I have had, just how much they would appreciate the time that you have given us this morning. Thank you very much.

Witnesses:
Ms M Cunningham ) Child Care NI
Ms T Caul )

691.

The Chairperson: The Environment Committee is delighted to have this morning, representatives from Child Care (NI) - Mary Cunningham and Tara Caul. The Committee is endeavouring to carry out an extensive enquiry into the transporting of children. We have already listened to presentations from different Departments, Translink, headmasters of schools and other interested colleges. You can make your presentation, and we will ask you questions on certain points and try to have a dialogue together. I trust you to share the information you have with us. You are very welcome.

692.

Ms Cunningham: I want to thank the Environment Committee for giving Child Care (NI) the opportunity to make a presentation. Child Care (NI) is an umbrella body for the voluntary childcare sector. It represents 75 voluntary organisations working in the area of children and young people's work, ranging from large organisations, like Barnardos and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, to much smaller community- based organisations. I am pleased to have here today a representative from one of our organisations - Tara Caul, from the Children's Law Centre.

693.

Child Care (NI) members regard the current legislation - allowing 101 children under 14 to travel on a 53 seater bus - as blatantly unsafe. Firstly, in relation to the Road Traffic (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 - given that the driver of the bus has no supervision support - the number of children on the bus is distracting and the general noise level also constitutes a major distraction. It makes due care and consideration difficult, both to bus passengers and other road users. This makes no allowance for the fact that - and those of us who work and live with children and young people are aware of this - children under 14 are more active and noisy than a general adult busload. Also, most school children's baggage capacity is significantly greater and more cumbersome than an equivalent adult passenger-load. The problems that baggage blocking walkways presents is a considerable safety risk. The capacity factor also places children at a considerable risk, both getting on and off the bus. They push forward to secure the very limited seats or attempt to get off at their stop, increasing the potential risk of physical injury or distress. We believe that once aboard the bus the same personal safety issues are of concern, given the limited space and large amounts of baggage, making the risk of physical injury unacceptably high.

694.

The Committee should take cognisance of the supervision ratios outlined under the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 guidelines, although transportation is not specifically mentioned. Ratios in relation to schools, particularly nursery schools, suggest a 1:26 ratio of adult to children. That, in fact, means that there needs to be two adults in relation to 26 children. In relation to playgroups, the ratio is 1:8. A potential ratio of 1:101 is completely unacceptable, particularly given that the one adult is employed exclusively to carry out the completely different role of driving the bus.

695.

Another major concern for Child Care (NI) members is that potential opportunities for abuse of groups or individuals are greatly increased in a crowded and unsupervised environment. Anecdotally we are aware of reported incidents of bullying and unwelcome horseplay on buses and these are a source of considerable concern to the children involved and their families. The consequences of such overloading may also be that children are unwilling to travel to school on the bus and that their parents need to make alternative arrangements. From an environmental point of view that increases the number of private vehicles on the road, adding to the already quite significant congestion and making the roads much less safe for those children and young people who wish to walk to school.

696.

We are also concerned that, potentially, the child's right to education under the Human Rights Act 1998 may be impinged upon when the journey to and from the school becomes so fraught that going to school becomes less acceptable. That may impact negatively on the child's performance in school and may lead to them refusing to attend school.

697.

Child Care (NI) acknowledges that the legal limit of 101 may not be reached on all occasions. However, a limit of that nature sends all the wrong signals to providers of transport and schools, alike. Human nature being what it is, it is also reasonable to assume that there are occasions when that limit, as with all limits, is exceeded. The fact that it is such a high figure in the first place means that exceeding it is almost unthinkable in terms of risk. Children being transported to and from school should receive no less care than they are required to receive by law in private vehicles, in terms of sufficient seating and restraint. Each child should have a seat, sufficient safe storage space for baggage out of the aisle and each seat should have a seat belt. Our school buses should have 53 seats, with 53 seat belts for 53 children.

698.

Child Care (NI) recommends the following safety measures be put in place to improve the safety of our children as they are being transported to and from school. Every child travelling on a school bus should have a seat. All vehicles transporting children to and from school should be fitted with seat belts. Those seat belts should be regularly checked, should be clearly marked and, if necessary, there should be special lighting and warning signals provided in school buses both auditory and visual. No vehicle other than an emergency service vehicle should be allowed to overtake while passengers mount and exit the bus. The delay caused to other road users would be significantly less if there were fewer passengers on the bus in the first place.

699.

Legislation should be amended to ensure that children are afforded the same protection as adults when they travel on buses. Supervision should be required on school buses with at least one trained supervisor per bus. The Committee should ask for a monitoring exercise to take place on the numbers of children and young people who are injured in, on, or around school buses in Northern Ireland. There should also be a legislative restriction on large passenger carrying vehicles in accordance with the above comments.

700.

We recognise that there will be practical implications to all of the above and it is essential that funding is found. The cost of implementing these safety measures will likely be lower than the costs of compensation for some of the horrendous injuries that have been caused to children. We urge this Committee to be courageous and take the lead in Europe by bringing forward the necessary legislation to ensure that in Northern Ireland we have one seat and one belt for every child.

701.

We ask the Committee to bring in guidance relating to the information being provided to parents as we have discovered that many parents are unaware of the numbers of children that are legally allowed to be carried on buses. Most parents take considerable effort to ensure that their children are safe and well protected, yet each day many of us drive our children, placing them at quite considerable risk. We are unaware of the legislative requirements for insurance cover, but for their best interests, our children should be insured and that the providers of transport should meet those needs.

702.

Ms Caul: I want to raise a point on something that has arisen within the work of the Children's Law Centre. The Children's Law Centre has been contacted by a number of concerned parents over the last couple of years regarding the interpretation of regulation 48(a) of the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1989, as is amended by the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1996. The issue pertaining to this legislation is that, as the legislation now stands, seat belts are mandatory when children and young people go on an organised school trip on a coach or a mini-bus, but not mandatory when buses are used for these school trips. It seems that the differentiation between a bus and a coach is a problem. Schools have a discretion over whether to use a bus or coach and often would use a bus, which are not usually fitted with seatbelts, for cost reasons. In our view that creates a very significant safety risk for children and young people, and I repeat that parents are not always aware of the situation that their children have no seat belts.

703.

We wrote to the Department of the Environment and received a response on 3 December 1999 that indicated unilateral action could not be taken to change the regulation and ensure that all school buses are fitted with seatbelts, in accordance with EC regulations. In our view it is a very basic requirement that buses carrying children to or from school on a normal school journey or a school trip should always be fitted with a seat belts.

704.

Finally, we want a full impact assessment carried out under Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, particularly regarding differentiation in impact relating to age with the legislation as it stands and any proposed amendments.

705.

The Chairperson: This legislation we are dealing with dates back to 1927 and it seems to be that so many organisations relating to children have taken the matter of 101 children being permitted to travel on a 53 seater bus as fait accompli - that's the way it is, there is nothing you can really do about it.

706.

The evidence of Department officials indicates they have not been inundated with complaints. Why do you think parents, schools and other bodies interested in the safety of children have allowed the continuation of this situation and not expressed concern to the Department? When did your organisation contact the Department to raise the matter of legally permitted numbers?

707.

Ms Cunningham: I said in my submission, as did Ms Caul, that parents are largely unaware of the legislation. Legally, 101 children can be carried on a school bus. Having seen and travelled on school buses, I am aware of both the overcrowding and the significant risk. The point has been well made that there has been no major outcry. The Committee should not assume that silence implies agreement with the present legislation - it would be remiss to do that. The Children's Law Centre was established to take forward such concerns and they have received a significant number of complaints. There have been protests by parents wishing to protect the safety of their children.

708.

Ms Caul: We took up the matter on behalf of parents with the Road Policing Development Branch, and we had several meetings. Subsequently, we wrote to the Department of the Environment and received a response on 3 December 1999. The issue of seatbelts on coaches and buses used for school trips featured. The response indicated that since the EC had no plans to change regulations, we were effectively against a brick wall.

709.

We sought a direction enforcing schools to use vehicles that provide seatbelts, which would have been a way round that situation. However, it was not forthcoming.

710.

The Chairperson: It has been mentioned that it would cost many millions of pounds to change situations in which children find themselves - sitting three to every two seats, sometimes without seatbelts, or standing in the aisles. Is it important that those millions of pounds are made available for the safe transport of children? Conversely, do you feel that if the current situation is allowed to continue without taking major action, that firstly, children will not be transported safely to and from school, and secondly, the quality of their transportation service is completely different than that for members of the public?

711.

Ms Cunningham: Childcare organisations in Northern Ireland are aware of the financial pressures on Government. We are asking that money be made available, or even that this process begins. I was unaware the legislation dated from 1927. The volume of traffic on our roads since 1927 to the present has significantly increased.

712.

The Department of the Environment's own road safety campaign which showed a boy, unbelted in the back seat, being thrown forward and resulting in the death of his mother was extremely striking. The potential cost of injuries or loss of children's lives standing in the aisles on buses which travel at increased speeds, albeit within the limits, along what we already know is quite a poor road infrastructure in Northern Ireland - is also significant.

713.

Speaking to Ms Caul before we came in, I said that if we unfortunately had a child's death or a major accident then this Committee and the Minister would take action to ensure the safety of our children. I suggest that the Committee looks at proactive measures to protect the children of Northern Ireland as they go to and from school and not wait until it has to take reactive steps.

714.

Mr Poots: The key arguments of the Department, Translink and various other groups presenting evidence to us have supported not using supervisors: that in the past five years just over 400 children have been injured on school buses and a significant majority of those were minor injuries; that transport to school in cars is less safe, with a higher number of children injured; and the estimated cost involved would be £43 million per annum, as far as I can recall. If your proposal to put supervisors on buses is accepted that would be an additional cost. They are the arguments that have been put to us why not to do it. What would your response be to those arguments?

715.

Ms Cunningham: I would be interested to know what Translink considers to be a sufficiently large critical mass of the children of Northern Ireland injured before it would consider taking action. Do we need to have 1,000 or 4,000 injured? What would they consider it to be - I would have thought that 400 children injured as a result of travelling on a school transport system as absolutely unacceptable.

716.

Mr Poots: You have indicated that you would want 53 children per bus is that be on every route or within the 30 mile speed limit zones? Are you prepared to allow a case for having children standing or sharing seats? If you insist on 53 children only, do you have any concerns about children being left at bus stops and not be able to get to school - perhaps in danger of people with the wrong motives?

717.

Ms Cunningham: Child Care (NI) members would be opposed, in principle, to children and young people standing on buses, even within the 30 mile an hour limit zone. Every child should have a seat, even if it is shared. I do not think we would argue about that.

718.

Children have a right, under the UN Convention, to be educated and a right, therefore, for the majority of them to attend school. If they can only do that by being transported to school then the Government is obliged to ensure that transport is provided. If that requires more buses it is not beyond the realms of possibility to provide them.

719.

Mr McLaughlin: In your submission you addressed the issue of overcrowding on the buses, and we have already discussed that. School principals have claimed that they do not have any discretion in the context of school organised external activities, such as school trips or football games. They are obliged to hire coaches as opposed to buses, which must be fitted with seatbelts. Yet there is a distinction made in the school transport system that is taking children to and from school. Clearly, the Committee regards this as a disaster waiting to happen.

720.

In particular, buses can become progressively loaded during morning trips by children who, nowadays, carry a considerable amount of baggage. Based on the evidence that we have heard, no ongoing study or comparative studies of legislation and experience exist to help establish the optimum safety standards. The reference to wait for European legislation appears to be a fob-off. It is possible for us to come up with a definitive recommendation which, if accepted by this Assembly, will not require the EU to act first. The Assembly does possess the ability to deliver on this.

721.

Is Child Care (NI) carrying out independent studies on this matter? Are you networking with other similar organisations, or in touch with experience else- where, either in Britain, or internationally? The points made today about safety on buses - including vehicles overtaking buses that are either discharging children, or taking children on board - are points that we have continuously returned to.

722.

Ms Caul: The Children's Law Centre has not conducted any such empirical research. We have been in contact with an organisation in England called "Belt-up School Children" (BUSC) and have requested some information from that body.

723.

Earlier, there was mention of the discretion of principals of schools. This Environment Committee should look into that further because the letter from the Department, dated 3 December, says;

"It is entirely a decision for individual schools as to which type of vehicle they wish to use."

This appears to contradict Mr McLaughlin's comments.

724.

Mr McLaughlin: Is it possible to interpret that reply in the context of school organised trips for activities such as games, or the visiting of museums?

725.

Ms Caul: That is specifically what I asked about in my letter.

726.

Mr McLaughlin: In their correspondence, is there a distinction made between the delivery of schoolchildren and the return trips, or does it cover all elements of school transport?

727.

Ms Caul: In this letter, it states;

"I would stress that whilst the Department has set the minimum standards which must be applied, it is a matter for individual school/organisations to determine their own transport requirements for educational visits, and to make the necessary arrangements with the transport providers. Such providers must comply with the law and where minibuses or coaches are used, they must have seatbelts fitted. It is entirely a decision for the individual school, as to which type of vehicle they wish to use."

This appears to be referring to school trips, which is the context I was enquiring about.

728.

Mr McLaughlin: Our evidence showed that those principals did not assume any discretion on that matter.

729.

Ms Caul: We feel they should not have any such discretion in this matter.

730.

Mr Ford: One specific point that you have raised is for proper supervision on these vehicles. Have you any comments to make regarding the implications of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 or the Human Rights Act 1998. Do you feel that there will be an obligation to have a supervisor present, given that the driver's role is not supervision.

731.

Ms Cunningham: There is nothing specific in the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 relating to the transportation of children. However, there is significant guidance in relation to other supervision ratios. Given that it is the overarching legislative framework in relation to children, we should use it as a benchmark.

732.

Ms Caul: We have certainly carried out a great deal of work on the effect of the Human Rights Act 1998 on children, and its relevance to them. Obviously, children have a right to life under the Act, but I would like to develop that a little further by saying that the European Court has placed positive obligations on Governments to prevent harm to children. The Government must be aware of that important concept. In that context, the protection of children is very important.

733.

Mr Ford: Have you any specific information of the effects of legislation from other organisations on vehicles overtaking when buses are stationary, boarding or discharging? I ask this because I have a totally open mind on the subject. I am concerned that enforcing this might encourage children to believe they can jump out of a vehicle and rush across the road, rather than learning about road safety. I am unsure of the best answer to that.

734.

Ms Cunningham: We have no research from elsewhere on how that would work in practice. However, anecdotally, the Children's Law Centre and ourselves are aware of children who have been very severely injured following accidents, where they have got out of buses and been hit by vehicles overtaking.

735.

Rev Dr William McCrea: We received communi- cation from Translink regarding two matters. One of them was seatbelts, the issue about which you talked, it says

"seatbelts have proved to be very prone to interference and vandalism by schoolchildren. There is anecdotal evidence of children wrapping belts around other children's necks. The law does not require the use of seatbelts when fitted. If such legislation were to be introduced, there are the practicalities of enforcement to be considered."

736.

What have you got to say about that?

737.

Ms Caul: In October 1999 there was certainly an indication, in a separate correspondence from the Department, that legislation on the testing of seatbelts and anchorages was on its way. I am not sure whether that was implemented, but it would have provided for the regular testing of seatbelts to ensure they met regulations. I believe it was to be part of the MOT. There were changes to the Motor Vehicle Testing (Fees) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1995 and the Public Service Vehicles (Northern Ireland) Regulations 1985 to test and monitor seatbelts for their safety.

738.

Ms Cunningham: I am sure people also report that children sometimes behave mischievously with fire extinguishers, but that would not be sufficient reason for a failure to ensure that schools had sufficient fire safety regulations - so what Translink says is a red herring. Translink is playing both ends against the middle. I would see that guidance as inappropriate, since children are now well aware that they must wear seatbelts in private vehicles, of which we have a very high level of ownership in Northern Ireland. They are becoming increasingly aware of road safety issues and could be encouraged to make proper use of seatbelts.

739.

The Chairperson: When Translink were asked about the number of children on a bus, the question "Do you consider this to be a safe practice?" was posed to them. They replied that national road safety statistics confirm that the safest form of road use is as a bus or coach passenger. Previous studies of the '3 for 2' rule in Great Britain concluded that there was not a safety case to answer, and that the continuation of the rule did not constitute a safety hazard. That was in a report produced by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, which was quoted in Parliament on 14 December 1993. What comments do you have?

740.

Ms Cunningham: Obviously there is empirical evidence which suggests that children are not at an increased risk if there are three of them sitting on a seat as opposed to two and I am not in a position to challenge that. However, significant numbers of children are not seated at all. They stand in the aisles, around the driver and beside the bus door, and must be exposed to a significant risk. The RUC have stated categorically, in correspondence to Ms Caul, that seat belts save lives. Therefore the assumption is that people need to be seated before they can use seat belts. We are sending very mixed messages to children.

741.

Ms Caul: With regard to the report that you were quoting from, it refers to passengers in buses and coaches. There has to be a differentiation between the safety of a bus and a coach, because, unlike buses, coaches now have seat belts. I would like to know the breakdown of those figures, and how many referred to bus travel and coach travel respectively.

742.

The Chairperson: Finally, a question that brings us back to the beginning, and the sad saga of money. The abolition of standing passengers without the removal of the '3 for 2' concession was costed in 1994. It would require 96 additional buses at an updated capital cost of £11·5 million and operating costs of £5·8 million per annum. However, the abolition of both the '3 for 2' rule and the provision for standing passengers, thus providing a seat for every child - a point that you have made clearly - was also costed in 1994. It was estimated that that would require an additional 339 buses at an updated capital cost of £41 million and operating costs of £22·5 million per annum. No one has challenged those figures yet.

743.

There are two things that I want to ask you, and one will probably be difficult to answer. Firstly, do you believe that the additional estimated cost - and I stress estimated - should be met to provide for our children's safety and to improve the quality of the service they receive? Now for the more difficult question, and I apologise for it, but it deals with the sort of factors that the Committee may have to face. If you had the opportunity to make some change -not the complete package - which of your recommendations would you regard as the most important and make the most difference to our children's safety? Quality of service is secondary to the safety of children travelling to school.

744.

Ms Cunningham: That is a difficult question. Clearly, Child Care (NI) prefer a seat for every child. Some 13 to 18 year old children are equivalent in size to adults. Attempting to squeeze three adolescent boys in to a two-seater seat will result in one of them having to stand. In making those difficult choices, Child Care (NI) is most concerned with the safety of children. It recommends that every child has a seat and that every seat has a seat belt. If those measures were in place, the risk of bullying and lack of supervision, et cetera, would be minimised.

745.

The Chairperson: Every child having a seat and every seat having a seatbelt is the full package. That is not making a choice.

746.

Ms Cunningham: We should take incremental steps that would prevent the occurrence of children standing on buses. There should be legislation that forbids children to stand in the aisles - that would be a significant step. It is hoped that we do not have to wait another 83 years for a review of the legislation. A significant amount of money is involved, but introducing legislation that forbids children to stand in the aisles or sit three to a two-seater seat would be a first step. It would be the beginning of a process that, over time, would result in every child having a seat and every seat having a seatbelt.

747.

The Chairperson: I am sorry for pressing the point, but on the one hand you want what, you believe, is the absolute right. On the other hand - and I am not saying that it will be the way forward - you suggest incremental steps with a clear vision of where you are moving to and the speed at which you endeavour to move. In reality, that may be the best that can happen.

748.

Ms Cunningham: That would be welcome.

749.

Ms Caul: An immediate step may be taken to close the gap in respect of coaches for school trips. If the Committee feel that discretion is not being used in that regard, that should be made clear to those people who organise transport for school trips.

750.

Mr Ford: Copies of correspondence on that issue would be useful.

751.

Ms Caul: We will send you copies.

752.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much indeed. Your contribution has been most helpful. I trust you accept that we are trying to get to the heart of this matter and your evidence is of great help. If you have any other useful documents please send them to the Committee Clerk who will forward them to Committee members.

Witnesses:
Mrs B Lyttle )
Mrs B Beattie )
Mrs J McCartney ) Federation of Women's Institute
Mrs R Graham )
Mrs J Wilson )
Mrs M Meharg )

753.

The Chairperson: Good morning ladies. Thank you very much for coming here today. You have listened to the tenor of what we have been discussing, the depth to which we want to get to the heart of the problem, and the evidence that we received from Departments. The legislation states that 101 passengers are allowed on a 53 seater bus, but that is not often the case. There have been few expressions of concern about the situation, apart from those submitted by interested bodies like the Women's Institute.

754.

When we received the Department's initial presentation we also received correspondence from the Federation of Women's Institutes which highlighted the issues that we are dealing with. Thank you for being there at the very beginning to exercise the Members' minds. The attention of parents and schools has been drawn to the legislation through your representations at the beginning. We have to look at the whole situation, gather all the evidence, and then come to some determination. We are in the middle of gathering evidence, and your presentation today is very vital in that. After your presentation we will go to the questions. We will make them as helpful and constructive as we can.

755.

Mrs Lyttle: Thank you for your kind words. We in the Women's Institute had a resolution many years ago about overcrowding on school buses and, like the 1927 legislation, the word came back that 101 passengers on a 53 seater bus was the law, and the transport authorities would adhere to it. We did not take this further because of that statement, and because we had no Parliament at that time.

756.

I am the chairman of the international part of the Women's Institute, executive member for 8 institutes on the Ards peninsula, and a member of the Portaferry Women's Institute. Also here is immediate past president of Portaferry Women's Institute, Mrs McCartney. She was president when Portaferry brought this resolution to the Executive, and to the federation. Also present is Mrs Beattie who is a member of the international committee and an executive member. Mrs Graham is also an executive member, and chairman of our Balmoral show committee in the Women's Institute. Also with me is our immediate past secretary, Mrs Jean Wilson of Portaferry Women's Institute, and our present secretary Mrs Maureen Meharg.

757.

On 9 October 1998, a seven-year-old boy was killed after alighting from a school bus on the Kircubbin to Portaferry road. This incident made me bring a resolution before the Portaferry Women's Institute. Some of you have seen this resolution in our correspondence:

"PORTAFERRY Women's Institute proposes that consideration be given to allow buses transporting school children to stop in the centre of country roads thus preventing following and oncoming traffic overtaking, allowing children to cross the road safely. All these buses should have 'School Bus' prominently displayed both front and rear of the vehicle."

758.

The members supported it and the resolution came before the executive committee of the Women's Institute. It was first debated in April 1999 at our annual general meeting. It was sent down for further consideration and passed again at our annual general meeting in April of this year. All 22 executive members of the federation sent letters to our local Members of the Assembly and to our Members of Parliament, inviting them to consider enacting legislation in support of the resolution. Replies included one from Mr Sam Foster, the Minister of the Environment, who explained - I can read you the whole letter, but this is the part I highlighted - that

"there are no plans in Great Britain or in Northern Ireland to require or to encourage buses to stop in the middle of the road when children are boarding or alighting."

He went on to state that he thought that it would make the children careless and that they could run across the road, thinking they were safe.

759.

We also contacted the Department of Education, the Minister of Education, the traffic branch of the RUC, the transport officers in each of the five education and library boards, and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents - whose letter I do not have with me but which was very negative. We have been in touch with Joan Smyth of Translink, the approved Driving Instructors' Association, the Women's Forum Northern Ireland, and the Northern Ireland Women's European Platform.

760.

I am very pleased to have been invited to be a witness at this public inquiry into transport used by children going to and from school. I feel that my evidence is relevant under the paragraph about considering the safety of school children when large numbers are travelling on buses. I gave a short presentation, following the instructions in the letter that I received. I did not know that I could have said much more.

761.

You asked if the Childcare N.I. witnesses had done any research on what happens in other countries. I have had evidence from Canada, New Zealand, the United States and Australia. They have very good legislation there, and I sent copies of it to Mrs Iris Robinson for your perusal.

762.

In New South Wales, 2,643 children aged between five and 16 were killed or injured during 1994 on local roads. All New South Wales' school buses flash headlights when stopping, to allow children to board or alight. Rear lights flash at all times. All buses have a distinctive symbol displayed on their rear window. I do not have any statistics for New Zealand, Canada or America. However, the New Zealand High Commission said the following:

"21 Speed limits

(6) The driver of any motor vehicle upon meeting or overtaking any stationary school bus stopped for the purpose of discharging or embarking school children shall drive with due care for the safety of the children, and in no case shall while passing any part of the school bus drive at a speed in excess of 20 kilometres an hour.

127. Vehicle-mounted signs-

(1) No person shall operate a school bus which is being used (whether for hire or reward or not)-

(a) Exclusively for the carriage (in addition to the driver) of school children to or from school whether with or without their teachers; or

(b) Principally for the carriage of school children to or from a school function,-

unless the vehicle displays a 'School Bus' sign at both the front and rear. The sign at the rear shall be mounted with its lower edge not less than 1.5 m from the ground in the centre line or to the right thereof of the school bus. When the bus is not being used for the carriage of school children, the 'School Bus' sign shall not be displayed."

763.

My letter of 23 October refers to the situation in Canada, saying

school buses put on their flashing lights and no vehicle is allowed to pass them. If they do, the driver of the bus can take their vehicle plate number and report the offending driver to the police, and a heavy fine is usually imposed.

764.

The letter also mentions the DeKalb County School Bus Driver manual. A section on page 25 of the manual states that the most dangerous part of the trip to and from school is the time when students are loading and unloading on the roadway. 75% of all national fatalities occur at this time and mostly to students who are under 10 years of age.

765.

For you information, DeKalb County is in Georgia. My letter also noted that In Florida, Massachusetts, and many other states, vehicles must stop when a school bus has stopped to load or unload children. Overtaking is thus forbidden.

766.

Ms McCartney: I am not a car driver, and I often travel on school buses from Newtownards to Portaferry. The overcrowding is tremendous. Mrs Lyttle mentioned how children are more like young adults these days. How can three be expected to squash into two seats, particularly as they carry so much baggage? The bags sit in the aisles and they are not properly put on the racks. It is an accident waiting to happen. I sometimes travel on the ferry, and there are so many children on it going to school in Downpatrick and Ballynahinch that there is a mad scramble up the quayside to get a seat on the bus. It is unbelievable. What price a child's life?

767.

The Chairperson: We got evidence from the headmasters, and I think they were disappointed that the children were not scrambling to get on to the bus to get to school. They found out that they were actually scrambling to get on the bus to get a seat, which is the point you are making.

768.

Ms Meharg: I wish to discuss a more emotive issue. I have no documentation for you, but I have my personal experiences. One day my cousin's daughter was coming home from school in Ballygowan. The bus stopped outside her door to let her off, but she dashed behind it to go into her own house. A car travelling at speed from the opposite direction crashed in to her. She had a serious accident and almost lost her life. Fortunately she survived, but lost a kidney. I am sure we all have children or grandchildren, and if that happened to one of them, I am sure it would be more emotive for you than merely looking at bare statistics. That point should also be considered.

769.

The Chairperson: Thank you. While we all have emotions, the Committee must try to put them aside and consider all the evidence that is given to us.

770.

Ms Lyttle: At the end of the day, what price do you put on one child's life - or those of 100 children?

771.

The Chairperson: The child of a very close friend of mine was coming off the bus and, unlike your relative, was killed. I therefore know the value of a child's life, for it was certainly a very emotional event for us. As Chairman and members of this Committee respectively, we must look at all the issues brought before us and make a determination at the end. However, I thank you for recounting that personal experience, which is very harrowing individually. I have been there and certainly know that.

772.

Ms Lyttle: I was also with the police traffic branch before my resolution to the annual general meeting. I do not know if you have read this most interesting book, which is full of statistics. It is the 1998-1999 edition, and I got it from Superintendent Houston at police traffic headquarters on Lisnasharragh Road.

773.

The Chairperson: It was not presented to us.

774.

Ms Lyttle: Will you have time to listen to the relevant parts of the resolution?

"You may be familiar with the yellow and black school buses which are owned and operated by each Education Board. These buses have the words "School Bus" displayed on the front and rear of the vehicle. Since preparing this resolution I have noticed that many Ulsterbus do not have "School Bus" displayed on the front of the vehicle - some have "Private" and there is nothing on the rear to warn following traffic that there are school children on board.

I have spoken to the owner of a private bus firm in Portaferry whose vehicles are used as school buses. These buses display a large yellow placard with a picture in black of two children both front and rear. This operator also puts on yellow hazard lights when stopped to collect or deposit children.

The following Road Traffic Accident Statistics from the 1998/1999 annual report of the R.U.C. will interest you. During 1998/1999, one child was killed every 24 days; one child pedestrian casualty every 16 hours; and one child casualty every 5 hours. The single main cause of road deaths in 1998/1999 was excess speed. Do you realise that roads in built-up areas are regarded as those with a speed limit of 40 m.p.h. or less? Roads in "OTHER AREAS" are those with a speed limit of over 40 m.p.h. up to a maximum of 70 m.p.h. and would include motorways and most RURAL roads.

The accidents in which child pedestrians were killed and injured were caused mainly by the factors "pedestrians heedless of traffic" and "walking or running while movement masked"; almost 3/5 of the pedestrians to whom accidents were mainly attributable were children aged under 16.

The peak times for accidents were 8 a.m. to 9 a.m., and 4 p.m. to 6 p.m.

In conclusion --- in seeking your support for this resolution remember that 31 children were killed in the two years 1997/1999. Fellow members --- those of you from a rural background please equate this statistic with an entire class in a country school.

If by bringing this resolution to the attention of the relevant authorities we prevent the death of one child, it will have been very worthwhile."

That was my resolution. You should have a wee look at that.

775.

Mr Ford: I certainly welcome the fact that you highlighted the incident between Portaferry and Kircubbin at the beginning. It will come as no surprise to you that my Colleague, Kieran McCarthy, expects me to support you.

776.

Ms Lyttle: Indeed. I am very pleased that so many Assembly Members have replied to our Women's Institute letters.

777.

Mr Ford: We must be concerned with what the Chairman said about the overall safety of children. I have been asking a number of people, including Child Care, questions to which I have not yet had an answer.

778.

I have no difficulty with the suggestions that you made about a requirement for signs, flashing lights on stationary buses and so on. In countries where people are forbidden from overtaking school buses, do children feel that they can rush across the road? There is a bus stop beside my house, adjacent to a fairly blind bend. Even if the law said that people could not drive past the bus as my children got on and off, I suspect that the speed at which people travel on that road is such that they would pass it anyway. What evidence is there that such a law would increase safety? We might be encouraging children to assume that it was safe, even if, in fact, it was not always safe, despite the law forbidding people from driving past school buses.

779.

Ms Lyttle: I need to do more research on how that works. My contact in Canada said that some people ignore the law, but it is at their own peril, because they will have their number taken. I do not know how many accidents it has prevented. Since 1995, there has been a campaign in New South Wales to reduce the number of accidents involving children; they had a five-year ban on overtaking. I would be happy to let you have a copy of the report on that.

780.

The Chairperson: That would be of assistance.

781.

Mrs Lyttle: I do not know how we would go about putting a sign on that part of the road to advise that there is a bus stop on the bend of the road that Mr Ford mentioned. The legislation could be quite tricky.

782.

Mrs McCartney: Could the bus stop be moved to a safer place? The kids could walk a few hundred yards to get to somewhere safer. A bend is a dreadful place to have a bus stop.

783.

Mr Watson: You mentioned the private operators down on the peninsula and the arrangements that they were adopting.

784.

Mrs Lyttle: Those are board regulations.

785.

Mr Watson: Would you like to see those introduced on the Translink services?

786.

Mrs Lyttle: Yes, I would. Since I started the study, I have become aware of the number of Ulsterbuses that do not have any signs on the front or rear to indicate that there are children on board. People might say that the children would pull the sign down; if they do, it can be put up again. Buses should have a yellow sign with two children on it.

787.

The Chairperson: I shall read you Translink's answer to the question of whether buses used for school transport should be clearly marked as such: "Given that school transport is fully integrated with public services, this question really means that all Ulsterbus vehicles would be required to display the signage, which would negate the value of the suggestion. Any suggestion that the sign should be displayed on school journeys and not on other journeys is virtually unworkable in practice. Ulsterbus vehicles often display the legend 'School Bus' or the school name on their destination display, but only when this is unlikely to cause confusion to other passengers. Most buses cannot display destination information to the rear".

788.

Mrs Lyttle: That is just an excuse. How did the trams work back in the days when we were girls and boys? The number was on the back of the tram as well as on the front. There is nothing to stop the bus companies asking someone to design a sign just like those that they have on the front of buses to show that it is a private hire or a school bus. There should be signs on front and back, which can be turned off when the bus in not in school use.

789.

Mrs Meharg: It would not be difficult for a driver to switch on his hazard warning lights when the bus stops to let children on or off. Such a simple procedure would not cost anything. It should be regulated so that the public would be made aware that they could not go past a bus carrying school children if it has stopped to let them off and that they should slow down if they were coming towards it.

790.

Mrs Lyttle: Translink should look at the design of their new buses.

791.

Mr Watson: You stated horrendous figures for the number of accidents in New South Wales, and you made it clear that you think all traffic should stop when children get on and off buses. We have also heard evidence from people who say that there are many practical problems associated with that. What is your response to those people?

792.

Mrs Lyttle: The practical problems must be overcome. In America when a bus stops, particularly a school bus, a yellow arm is extended to show that the bus has stopped to let children alight. The United Kingdom fostered our former empire, but every country I mentioned is way ahead of us in looking after its schoolchildren. Why can we not catch up with those countries?

793.

Mrs McCartney: While I was in Novia Scotia a few years ago I wondered why my host stopped his car. Then I realised that there was a school bus in front of us and the children were getting off. All the cars automatically stopped when they saw the school bus stop.

794.

Mrs Meharg: From a safety point of view, if other motorists had to stop or slow down when they pass school buses at the highlighted times, it would also benefit the prevention of road traffic accidents. People speed through those areas, but if they know that a big bus could be sitting round the corner, and they may have to slow or stop, it could have the knock-on effect of cutting down on traffic accidents.

795.

Mr Poots: I commend Mrs Lyttle for her research. Last year I attended the funeral of a young schoolboy from my constituency who was killed on his way to catch the bus. I also know of two teenage girls who were badly injured after getting off a bus. So I sympathise with your arguments. I too first saw a bus stopping in that way in Canada 12 years ago. But the significant difference between Canada and Northern Ireland is that people actually design roads in Canada and they design them straight. In Northern Ireland the cows tend to design roads, with one bend after another. Can you not see inherent dangers in a bus stopping in the middle of the road in Northern Ireland, given that there are so many bends and that there is only 200 or 300 yards between bends?

796.

Mrs Lyttle: The bus stop could be moved. I wanted the bus to stop in the middle of the road in rural areas, rather than in the city or a very large area where there is a footpath that the children can wait on. The accident that I mentioned happened on a road with no footpaths. You also mentioned the handicapped child who walked across a road in Crossgar and got killed a couple of years ago.

797.

Mrs Meharg: Things can always be adapted and changed, or else the man who invented the wheel would still be pushing a wheel barrow with one wheel.

798.

Things can be adapted and changed and there are ways round the problem to make things better and improve on what we already have. If the safety of our children is of prime concern I do not see what is holding the Government back from initiating these measures.

799.

The Chairperson: Should traffic travelling behind a school bus be forbidden from overtaking while children are exiting the bus? I will quote Translink's answer in its submission to the Environment Committee in November 2000: "This question appears based upon a false premise, that overtaking vehicles present a greater safety hazard to alighting passengers than oncoming vehicles. We understand that North American practice requires vehicles in both directions to come to a stop while school buses are unloading. In the absence of wide-spread respect by vehicle drivers such a proposal might introduce new dangers to child pedestrians, who rely on correct driver behaviour. There is nevertheless a need for road safety education: (a) among school children to impress the need not to cross the road until the bus has moved away, and there is a clear view in both directions; and (b) among drivers generally that the presence of a bus at a bus stop (or road side location in rural areas), equates with the potential hazard of a child darting across the carriageway."

800.

That is Translink's response to the problem.

801.

Ms Graham: Translink makes the point about children being educated. It is time our drivers and adults were educated. That is something that we must not forget, it does not always fall back on the children. As drivers, each one of us has a responsibility. I have been driving for over 50 years and, touch wood, have never had an accident, but that is perhaps because one is aware and makes oneself aware of other people. Courtesy and good manners help when people are driving. Personally, I know that driving also means watching out for little boy racer and little girls seem to be even worse than little boys and one thinks "there but for the grace of God.". They are overtaking you on corners. Education is needed for adults as well as for the children.

802.

Mr McLaughlin: Thank you for your presentation. I am particularly impressed with the international network and the information that you brought as evidence.

803.

In some of those countries, such as the States, there is no uniform policy approach on the matter. In America, some States have legislation that very carefully and specifically prescribes schools transportation arrangements, but others do not. Is it possible that through your international network you could access comparative studies between those States that apply those safety prescriptions and those that do not, for application locally?

804.

Ms Lyttle: I could try and find out. I am going to a conference in Canada for the Women's Institute Ladies in June and a big American delegation will be attending. I could try and find out which State does what and then contact you. Perhaps that is too far ahead. When will your inquiry close? When do you have to present your report?

805.

Mr McLaughlin: There probably is a time problem.

806.

Ms Lyttle: If there is a cut-off date I would need to get on to the problem immediately.

807.

Mr McLaughlin: We all know about statistics and we will not take the phraseology any further, but one of the consequences of overcrowding is that more children and parents resort to car transportation.

808.

The statistics about accidents involving school children have to be broken down between coach hire, buses, private hire, et cetera. It is difficult to get the facts and truth. None of the departmental or Translink spokespersons considered the statistics provided by private transport operators which indicate that children get injured as a consequence of over crowding. However, there is a direct correlation. Without safe and secure school transportation many parents will be concerned and will resort to using private transport.

809.

The Committee is concerned about that issue and it would be valuable if accounts of comparative experience could be accessed as a matter of urgency.

810.

Mrs Lyttle: I will see what I can do. You talked earlier about the high costs involved with having a single seat for each child. Would it not be cheaper to pay a bus conductor? When I was going to school the conductor was in charge of the double-decker bus and the children always sat on their seats.

811.

Mrs Beattie: When learning to drive, learners are told to be careful if a ball comes out on to the road because a child may run out after it. Similarly, if a bus had a sign with "School Bus" on the front and rear, drivers might slow down, being aware that a child may run out at the front or the back. Courtesy would demand that when drivers see the sign at the front or rear of the bus they would slow down or stop.

812.

Mrs McCartney: I often travel from Strangford to Downpatrick on the school bus. The driver picks up children from the primary school, goes on to the Ballyculter country roads and leaves off about half a dozen children. The driver makes the children go round the front of the bus, and he gives them the nod when they can cross the road.

813.

Mrs Graham: If children go to the front the driver has more control over them.

814.

Mrs McCartney: He does not make them wait until the bus moves. He gives them the nod when they can cross over. It is a caring way to look after the wee ones.

815.

The Chairperson: The Environment Committee received a submission from the Department of Education which deals with a couple of issues that we are talking about. The Department of the Environment asked if buses that are used for school transport should be clearly marked as school transport? The Department of Education's submission stated that

"All education and library board vehicles are painted yellow and white and are easily identified as school transport. There is a legal requirement that other vehicles, including those on public transport services, carrying school children must display amber pupil signs on the front and rear of their vehicles. However, these do not have a particular high profile and the Department would support any proposal which helps improve the identification of these vehicles".

816.

That is different from the tenor of the information received from Translink. It said that it does not have to do that because its vehicles are dual purpose. However, the Department of Education stated that

"There is a legal requirement that other vehicles, including those on public transport services, carrying school children must display amber pupil signs on the front and rear of their vehicles.

817.

Mrs Lyttle: In some countries, buses have big amber lights high on the front that even the oncoming traffic can see. They are not low on the bus.

818.

The Chairperson: I will seek verification on what, "legal requirement" means.

819.

The Department of the Environment posed another question: should traffic travelling behind the school bus be forbidden from overtaking when children are getting off the bus? The Department of Education stated

"This issue would be more appropriate for those with expertise in traffic-related issues. The Department understands that in the USA traffic is forbidden from overtaking school buses while stationary.

Although this has some attractions, there may be other dangers associated with such a proposal. For example, it could lead to extreme traffic congestion, particularly around schools. It would be extremely difficult for vehicle drivers to know whether a bus was likely to be parked for some time, or would be moving off when passengers had alighted, and could prove difficult to enforce. Additional emphasis on road-safety education may be a more suitable way to proceed."

820.

Ms Lyttle: Some of the larger secondary schools, particularly in the Ards Peninsula, have a turning area in the school's grounds, for example, St Columba's High School in Portaferry and Glastry High School in Ballyhalbert. The children alight when the buses are in the school's grounds. Though I am not telling you what to do, I feel that problem can be overcome.

821.

The Chairperson: It is not as easy as that in reality. Believe it or not, I know of schools that will not facilitate turning circles in their grounds and have prohibited buses from coming in. I could name some schools, but I will not do so on public record. It is not always simple to get schools to provide the ground.

822.

Ms Lyttle: As we have a new Assembly in Northern Ireland, it is up to you to introduce the legislation to ensure it is compulsory for schools to co-operate.

823.

The Chairperson: The school I was thinking of is a private one.

824.

Ms Lyttle: Perhaps they will wait until a few children have been killed.

825.

The Chairperson: Finally, with regard to the amending legislation to restrict the number of school- children on buses, officials from the Department of Regional Development have said that the Department is not convinced that a case has been made on safety grounds to change the current legislation.

826.

Ms Lyttle: Are they still going to allow 101 children on a 53-seater bus?

827.

The Chairperson: It is not a matter of their allowing it, because it is the Department of the Environment which has the power to make any changes. It is not a matter for the Department for Regional Development.

828.

Ms McCartney: Can a bus hold 101 children? Can you cram 101 kids onto a bus?

829.

The Chairperson: The Committee has been told that, on occasion, the limit has been exceeded by one person- they must be hanging on. The Committee's deliberations on this matter will continue. The evidence of The Federation of Womens Institutes of Northern Ireland has been refreshing - and I do not mind putting this on record - because, unlike many other groups, they have consistently raised this issue. Furthermore, when they received responses they contacted a number of other groups and were not put off when the wrong answers were given, or when their requests were declined. They kept going on, and I found that refreshing.

830.

This matter has been around for many years, long before the Assembly was established. It has become an acceptable practice, because little was done to raise the matter. Your representations to this Committee and the Department, and your continuous representations over the years have been helpful. I would be grateful if you would provide the Committee with any details that you have to assist us in our deliberations.

831.

Ms Lyttle: I want to finish by saying that I asked the RUC's traffic branch if Northern Ireland was the first part of the UK to introduce seat belts. They told me that we were not the pilot area. However, we are the pilot area for 'R' plates, which restricts young drivers to 45 m.p.h. No other part of the UK has that, although I am unsure of the position in the Republic of Ireland.

832.

Could we not set an example and carry out a pilot scheme for school buses stopping on country roads and for having the school bus sign on the front and rear of buses?

833.

I know that the milkman is becoming a rare commodity in Northern Ireland but he still comes to the end of my road. This year, milkmen are asking us to support them in helping Barnardos, which deals with child bereavement. A little girl who is almost seven allegedly wrote the letter they are using. It states that "six months ago, a car killed my big brother Gary as he was getting off the school bus. Since he died our home has become a very sad place." The letter continues in that vein. So, there are more organisations than the Womens' Institute interested in road safety.

834.

On behalf of my colleagues, I thank you for allowing us to speak to you this morning. We hope that you will be successful with your resolution

835.

The Chairperson: Ladies, again let me thank you for coming today. Thank you for your submission and your presentation. Our investigations will be continuing and we will come to a conclusion based on the evidence.

836.

I know that this is not the question you want to hear me ask, however, if the Department were to bring in legislation to move the situation forward on an incremental basis then a number of items arise. These are the issues of seatbelts, 3 for 2 seating, and standing in aisles. You do not have to answer the question but I will pose it to you. If there were movement by the Department, which of those items would bring the greatest step forward in children's safety?

837.

Mrs Graham: I would be inclined to think that children getting on and off buses would be the first thing that should be dealt with. When children are on the bus the risk of fatality is not as great.

838.

Mrs McCartney: I think that the overcrowding on buses should be the first thing addressed. No more than 10 kids should be allowed to stand, and there should not be three to a seat. There was a very bad accident just outside Greyabbey this week involving a bus and two cars. If that bus had been full of children and had overturned the results would have been terrible.

839.

The Chairperson: On the issues of 3 for 2 and standing, which of those would be preferable?

840.

Mrs McCartney: There should be fewer children standing because the aisles are also filled with their baggage.

841.

Mrs Beattie: In my view, overcrowding on buses should be dealt with. Also, there should be someone on buses to supervise children getting on and off and to keep them under control.

842.

Mrs Meharg: I would say that children can be injured through overcrowding. That is not to say that the other items are not also important. However, fatalities happen when children dash out from behind a bus or when they dash on to a bus. Passing traffic has to slow down or stop.

843.

Mrs Wilson: Getting on and off the bus is the most important part, there are cars coming and going.

844.

Mrs Lyttle: Will you go over your three options again?

845.

The Chairperson: I was trying to close some of them, because one I did not mention was the cars stopping, but I was talking about on the bus. The three options were standing on the bus, three to a seat or seatbelts.

846.

Mrs Lyttle: With reference to standing on the bus, I would say to cut that down altogether. If they cannot afford to get new buses, then take the three to a seat option with no standing whatsoever.

847.

The Chairperson: Your colleagues are also pinpointing and identifying boarding and exiting the bus as a very serious matter.

848.

Mrs McCartney: You can fit three primary school kids on a seat. I have seen kids wanting to sit together, but you cannot fit three secondary school boys on one seat.

849.

Mrs Graham: May I give you a personal experience? I have a niece who is head of Department in one of our boy's secondary schools in Belfast. Their headmaster is actually looking for the teachers to accompany the children to and from school. There is one headmaster wanting his teachers to do more than that.

850.

The Chairperson: I do not know whether he has the legal authority to do so, but nevertheless I will not query that school's authority; neither will I delve into whether he has - [Interruption]

851.

Mrs Graham: There are some headmasters worrying about the safety of their children on the buses.

852.

The Chairperson: I would have to worry also about the safety of the teachers having to control 101 children on a 53 seater.

853.

Ladies, thank you very much indeed, I deeply appreciate your presence and the manner in which you have made your presentation today.

Witnesses:
Mr Alan Walker ) General Consumer Council
Ms M Bell )

854.

The Chairperson: Ms M Bell and Mr A Walker from the General Consumer Council are very welcome this morning, and I hope they will feel very much at home amongst us. We are trying to deal with a matter that has been causing a great deal of

855.

public concern, therefore we are endeavouring to get to the bottom of the issues. At the end of this inquiry we will have to make a recommendation with regard to the progression of this matter.

856.

I want to thank both of you for the video you sent us. Committee Members have seen it, and we congratulate you on its sharpness and clear focus on the issue. Would one of you like to make your presentation, and then we will have a discussion on any issues to which you wish to draw our attention. We hope to tease out some of the information you have sent to us.

857.

Ms Bell: Thank you very much for your welcome, Mr Chairman. I am Maeve Bell, the Director of the General Consumer Council, and my colleague Alan Walker leads for us on transport. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to come here today in order to give evidence.

858.

I want first to describe the nature of the General Consumer Council. It is a research and campaigning organisation, whose role is to give consumers a voice. We have a special responsibility for consumers of public transport, essentially for passengers.

859.

Since the early 1990s, the General Consumer Council has been concerned about the overcrowding on buses taking children to school. Bus travel is probably the safest way to travel on the roads, and not every bus carrying schoolchildren is overcrowded, but in some cases there is severe overcrowding. The "3 for 2 rule" is extremely outdated; it has outlived any usefulness that it ever had and is largely responsible for this overcrowding.

860.

The General Consumer Council has been calling for the abolition of this rule since the mid-1990s. You said that members have seen the video, Mr Chairman; it puts the case we want to make. I hope that the video spoke for us and that I do not need to make any further opening remarks. We are now happy to discuss the issues with you and answer any questions you may have.

861.

Mr Leslie: Are you saying that because children are bigger, three of them should not be sitting on a seat meant for two? Would that not mean they would have to stand? Or are you saying that we should have more buses?

862.

Ms Bell: The "3 for 2" rule originated in the 1950s. I cannot offer an opinion as to its appropriateness then, however it is very inappropriate now. To allow three children aged under 14 to occupy a seat meant for two - and I am not saying that this happens in Northern Ireland -will result in there being 101 children aged under 14 on a 53-seater bus.

863.

That is unsatisfactory for many reasons. First, the sheer overcrowding for those children, particularly for those travelling long distances, results in their feeling tired when they arrive at school. This can lead to incidences of bad behaviour.

864.

An added problem is the amount of baggage, kits and equipment that children must now bring to school which they did not in the 1950s. I am talking about PE kits and musical instruments, for example, because children now have to do a great deal of coursework, they have to carry more books; they have to carry big files in and out of school each day. All of this blocks the aisles, and that may have safety implications.

865.

Bus travel is very safe, however, we are going to have to put more buses on school routes. Bus services are the backbone of transport in rural areas. The contribution that children make when travelling to school is what has made the bus service viable.

866.

Mr Leslie: Do you mean that there should be 53 people sitting, one per seat, with nobody standing? Or are you saying that 53 should be sitting, one per seat, and 22 should be standing, rather than sitting "3 for 2?

867.

Ms Bell: Anybody getting on to a bus, regardless of their age, would like to be able to sit down, although buses are licensed to carry a limited number of standing passengers. We want to see an immediate end to the "3 for 2" rule. This will require that the absolute capacity for a bus is its current licensed limit of seated passengers and standing passengers. In an ideal world, it would be possible for all passengers to be able to sit. We want to see high-quality public transport. The Government must be seen to be offering high-quality public transport.

868.

Mr Watson: You referred to the fact that children who use the bus service to get to and from school make a significant contribution towards Transink's funding. Do you think those children get a fair return?

869.

Ms Bell: Translink has provided figures that suggest that children travelling to and from school represent almost one third of its total business. It is crucial, therefore, in terms of sustaining our network of buses in Belfast and around the country to maintain that business. Although there may not be overcrowding on every service, it is not right that situations can escalate to the level where there is overcrowding, and that is undoubtedly stressful for children. Parents, teachers and children will all claim that it can lead to situations that involve bullying and bad behaviour. It can also be quite stressful for the bus driver. Therefore, as a council, we do not consider this to be satisfactory.

870.

Mr McLaughlin: Good morning. I want to congratulate you on your submission and the video, which was very helpful. I am intrigued, to some extent, as to why you did not examine or explore the responses to this issue in other societies. I am referring to the yellow bus schemes and the special traffic regulations which prevent drivers from overtaking when children are either getting on or getting off a school bus. Do you have a view on these? Did you consider them but feel that they did not merit any comment in your submission? Do you find yourselves confined by the council's specific remit?

871.

Ms Bell: Resources have confined us more than anything else. We had some information from North America, and consulted organisations like the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents and a pressure group called Belt Up School Kids. Ideally we would have liked to go beyond these shores, but the budget is too small.

872.

Mr Walker: We are aware of the variety of schemes that are available, particularly in North America. These include padding the back of seats. In some cases in Canada, overtaking is prevented by an arm that comes off the bus and blocks any traffic trying to go past. We are concerned, however, that while that is safe for people on the near side, it does not prevent a child's being in an accident with a car coming in the opposite direction to the bus as they cross over. We do believe that if seat belts were available, they would undoubtedly be safer, but there may be practical implications as to why seat belts on buses may not be suitable.

873.

Ms Hanna: Good morning, you are very welcome. Translink's old passenger charter stated that nobody should have to stand for more than 15 minutes at peak periods and not at all, at off peak-periods. Should it not be the same for children travelling to and from school?

874.

Ms Bell: Absolutely, a passenger is a passenger. If we want to encourage people to use public transport, what sort of a message does that give to young people? If they are virtually herded onto buses, why would they go on to have a positive attitude towards buses and public transport in later life?

875.

Ms Hanna: I agree.

876.

Mr Ford: Was the diagram you gave on the video regarding the size, height and weight of children and the figures you quoted for 11-year olds correct? Your written submission does not actually say what age of children your diagrams refer to.

877.

Mr Walker: Yes, we believe so. * (See footnote at bottom).

878.

Ms Bell: We received this data from the Health Promotion Agency, and that was the age group for which they had figures available. Perhaps we should check to be absolutely sure, and if we are misleading you on this, we will write to you.

879.

Mr Ford: It is very useful that you have created statistics from the perception that children are getting bigger.

880.

Your submission appears to conclude that seat belts are not worth considering on buses, although there is now seat belt legislation for minibuses and coaches. Would it be correct to say that you seem to be listing as many problems as benefits?

881.

Ms Bell: This is a very difficult situation. In terms of road travel, seat belts are, undoubtedly, conducive to safety. We then went on to look at the sort of situation where one would install them, and since minibuses have a much worse safety record that ordinary buses, we thought it was very important that seat belts should be required to be fitted on them.

882.

As coaches can travel at the faster speed limit, they are usually used on journeys where people are going from one place to another without any stops and are getting on at the same point of origin and off at the same destination. Think about a Citybus, however, which is currently being used to ferry people up and down the Newtownards Road. There is nowhere on a bus like that where a retractable three-point belt could be safely fixed. Ideally, one would like to see everybody sitting and belted up when on the road, however consideration has to be given to the person who wants to travel only two or three stops the Newtownards Road and who might want to stand, or does not want to belt up.

883.

We are very pleased that the Programme for Government is undertaking to reduce the average age of buses. We think this is important. Most of the fleet presently on Northern Ireland's roads cannot be safely fitted with seat belts. We hoped it would be useful for the deliberations of the Committee if we rehearsed some of these points.

884.

Mr Ford: You made the distinction between a coach and a bus, and by doing so, you have led me on to one of my hobby horses. I accept that stop / start buses in urban areas is an important issue, but I would like to draw your attention to what happens on the Ulsterbus route 149, which runs from Belfast Laganside via Ballyclare to Ballymena. Buses on that route are, effectively, both urban stopping buses and rural coaches travelling at almost the 59 miles an hour speed limit. Have you any suggestions as to how we could deal with safety aspects on a bus which travels at high speeds for a part of its journey? I cannot see a solution to the problem - that is why I am asking anybody I come across.

885.

Ms Bell: We have not brought a solution in our briefcases this morning. Mr Walker may like to add something here.

886.

Mr Walker: The clear distinction between minibuses and public service buses is that the latter have highly trained professional drivers at the helm. It is reasonable to expect that those people would adapt their driving skills to the circumstances and conditions in which they are driving. That is not an unreasonable expectation for a passenger to have.

887.

Mr M Murphy: I would like to raise the issue of speed. Do you not think that 60 miles an hour is too fast for buses on which children are travelling? Should that not be reduced substantially? I have not heard you mention how even an experienced driver could cope on a bus without supervision, despite his or her high level of training. Do you not recognise that a bus driver can occasionally be distracted from his driving if, for example, there is bad behaviour on the bus? You did not go into details on that matter.

888.

Mr Walker: That is an argument we use against the "3 for 2" rule. This rule results in more young people being on the bus, and there may be greater distractions for the driver as there is the potential for the occurrence of more of these types of problems. I repeat the point, however, that the drivers are trained.

889.

If a bus has seat belts fitted, who is responsible for ensuring they are worn? Is it the driver's responsibility? Is he responsible for monitoring behaviour on the bus? Additionally, how does the driver determine how many people are on his bus? When does he make the judgement to stop? Making these decisions can be a distraction for him, which could, in turn, affect his safe driving of the bus. The rule itself may not be inherently unsafe, but its consequences may have safety implications.

890.

Ms Bell: If it is unsafe for a bus carrying school- children to be driven at 59 miles an hour, it would almost certainly be unsafe for all of us to be travelling on the same bus travelling at the same speed.

891.

It is absolutely essential that the bus company has drivers who are very well-trained. The management must emphasise that safety is essential and that drivers have to judge what is a safe speed on a particular road. There is no difference between schoolchildren and the rest of us. Drivers need to be going at a safe speed depending on the conditions, and, therefore, it will be weather dependent. For example, a safe speed on a straight road with very few vehicles on a fine and clear day would be very different from that which should apply on a foggy frosty morning.

892.

Mr M Murphy: I have quite often seen buses travelling at high speeds, which I would not do in my car.

893.

Ms Bell: Translink should be informed if its drivers are not acting in a responsible and safe manner.

894.

The Chairperson: You said that since your council was formed in 1985, you have received a considerable number of complaints from school principals, teachers, parents and even from school pupils themselves about safety implications. What has the council actually done about those complaints?

895.

Ms Bell: We probably did not hear very much about it in the early years, but from about 1990 onwards, it seemed to become more of a problem - or a problem that was raised with the council more often. In a number of cases where individual complaints were made to us, we looked into those, and certainly on one occasion, as a result of our enquiries, an extra bus was put on. Mr Walker can confirm that on a couple of other occasions we were not as successful in bringing about a change.

896.

Mr Walker: In respect of each complaint that we investigate, we ask Translink to monitor a particular service, and they come back and give us information, for example, the numbers on a bus.

897.

Unfortunately, on many occasions when parents are complaining, it is only their perception that a bus is overcrowded. Translink could come back with the information and demonstrate that not only is the bus load within the "3 for 2" limit, but it is within the guideline limit of 75 that they use for buses. Where it does exceed that, they will consider putting on extra buses.

898.

There was one occasion, 18 months ago, when we were able to get Translink to put on an additional bus in a country area to service schoolchildren who were being bypassed; they were being left standing and were not able to get to school because the bus was overcrowded.

899.

Ms Bell: I wish to pick up on what Mr Walker has said - and this goes back to one of the first questions about how many people a bus is licensed to carry. In some cases there is a perception that a bus is quite overcrowded, even when it is within the ordinary legal limit as regards those who are standing.

900.

Some of the other things that we have done include the making of the video, which was shown quite widely. That was around 1995, and we sought and received a lot of support from the then politicians. We have with us a letter signed by one of the members of this Committee, David Ford, on behalf of his party at that time - indeed, virtually all the parties in Northern Ireland, both leaders and members, supported it. We got support from community groups, the police and district councils.

901.

We spoke at a number of conferences, including two at the House of Commons. One of our colleagues spoke at one as recently as last September, and we liaised with the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents and with the Belt Up School Kids, a pressure group for seat belts.

902.

The Chairperson: You said in your submission to us that by the end of 1994 you had carried out a survey on this, but have you really carried out an in-depth investigative enquiry into this subject, which has seemingly - from what you are saying - been troubling a lot of people? Have you contacted the Department that is responsible for this, and what was its reaction to those representations?

903.

Ms Bell: I do not wish to overstate how in-depth our work was. The General Consumer Council was constrained in looking beyond Britain and Ireland, but it surveyed a random sample of 200 schools, and about half of those responded. Three quarters of post-primary schools had a problem with school buses, and in about half of those cases, the problem was overcrowding. Any other problems were minor. The main problem was overcrowding. The examination did not cover all the schools in Northern Ireland. Overcrowding in school buses was not perceived to be a big problem in Belfast, but it was in the other board areas.

904.

The General Consumer Council had lengthy discussions with Translink and the Department of Education, but no more success has been achieved in the meantime due to a lack of money. The Department of Education stated that the money required for school bus passes and transporting children to school comes out of its budget, so how could it spend any more in that area when there were classrooms with leaking roofs.

905.

The Chairperson: Did the Department of Education refuse to do anything about the legislation? The argument is based on legislation that permits 101 children to travel on a bus.

906.

Ms Bell: That is right. While it originally started as legislation for England and Wales, it now applies in Northern Ireland as well, and we could not make any moves towards repealing it.

907.

The Chairperson: Why does Translink state that Northern Ireland has the most cost-effective system with regard to transporting children? In Northern Ireland £381 a year is spent on each child's school transport; £515 in Scotland, £542 in the English Shires and £721 in the London boroughs. What does that say about the value that is placed upon children's safety. Something may be cost-effective, but should safety and quality of service not also come into it, as well as the cost per child?

908.

Ms Bell: In our line of work, we have found that if an organisation is described as being cost-effective that usually means that it is either wonderfully efficient or that it provides a lower standard of service.

909.

The Chairperson: I have asked other witnesses at the Committee sessions to state what recommendation they would choose if the Department of the Environment were to take just one step forward. There are three recommendations: do away with the "3 for 2" policy; do away with standing in buses; and introduce safety seat belts. You have chosen a different option than most. Most of the other organisations stated that they would choose to do away with standing in buses, because that is unsafe for children. When a bus stops suddenly, children who are standing may be thrown to the front.

910.

You have chosen to do away with the "3 for 2" policy. If a bus stops suddenly, the children sitting on a seat have something to hold on to. What about children who are standing in the aisle, with one bag in their hand and another at their feet? What do they have to hold on to if the bus stops sharply? How safe would that recommendation be? Do you still feel that the "3 for 2" option is the most important?

911.

Ms Bell: That is a very good question. The reason that we would advocate abolishing the "3 for 2" rule is that, in many ways, it is almost unenforceable; it is virtually impossible for a driver to make a judgement about whether a child is under 14 years of age. At the moment it gives a legality to a certain degree of overcrowding. As far as the other changes are concerned, we have not chosen to restrict standing on buses for practical reasons. The bus service is not solely for school children. Other people uses the buses, and some may actually choose to stand. In that respect, buses in Belfast are no different from those in County Armagh or County Fermanagh.

912.

The Chairperson: That was not the message that I was getting from other evidence and also from your video. The children were saying that they were rushing to get the seats, not to stand. Principals who gave evidence to the Committee said that when they saw children rushing onto buses, they were rather disappointed to learn that they were not rushing to get to school, they were rushing to get seats, whether on a "3 for 2" or a "2 for 2" basis. Is it really the safe choice, therefore, to transfer children from the seats to the aisle? That differs to what we have heard in other presentations.

913.

Mr Walker: When using any form of public transport people's preference is to be seated. One reason why young people rush onto a bus may be to get not just one seat but six, so they can sit with all their mates. That is quite common, and problems can occur as children fight to get seated together. Children may be uncomfortable in the "3 for 2" position - and that could not be a comfortable way of sitting - and they will start standing, but the driver is not constantly counting how many of them are standing; he is concentrating on driving the bus.

914.

The Chairperson: The driver does not have to count the number of children who are standing. The legislation permits 101 passengers whether they are seated or standing. If children are under 14 years of age, the "3 for 2" principle is allowed.

915.

Mr Walker: Some children who were supposedly sitting on seats subsequently end up standing in the aisle; that would certainly be more uncomfortable and is not conducive to a good public transport atmosphere. The Government want these people to use public transport in later life. We cannot sustain the growth of traffic in Northern Ireland, and we need people to make greater use of public transport. This rule, as it currently stands, is continuing to put them off. If the resources were available, it would be much better if everyone in this country who used a bus or a train were to have a seat. There is a mixed system in respect of school transport in that in many instances, schoolchildren and adults are travelling on buses together.

916.

Take, for example, a case where a child is sitting on a bus, and a young mother with a baby gets on, or an elderly person. There would be a difficulty in that it would be illegal for that child to stand - to show courtesy and let the young mother or the old lady sit down. These are some of the practical difficulties that we see if children were not permitted to stand, especially since we have this dual service in Northern Ireland that helps to sustain our rural bus services.

917.

Ms Bell: Our aim is that everyone should be seated, but that has to be done in a satisfactory and safe way.

918.

Until now, we, as a council, have considered that the extra numbers and the ambiguities of the "3 for 2" rule make it the option to get rid of first. If your recommendation is to abolish standing, and that could be put in place by putting on extra buses, I would be the first to cheer and applaud. Ideally we could do with that.

919.

The Chairperson: Ideally we want to do everything. We have not made any determination whatsoever. The Committee will be free to make up its own mind, however sometimes these things come down to hard choices, and that is what we are trying to tease out. If the Department were forced into the position of having to make the best choice, what would it be? It seems that you are opting for a choice that is somewhat different from a lot of others. Ultimately, that adds to our choice.

920.

Thank you for the manner in which you gave your presentation. It allowed us to see the problem clearly and concisely and to hear the General Consumer Council's view. We really appreciate it.

921.

Ms Bell: Thank you, Mr Chairman, and your colleagues. We are very pleased that you have this subject on your agenda. Having beaten our heads against what seemed like a brick wall under previous arrangements, I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to come to an Assembly which is actually looking at some of the issues that really matter to people here.

** Subsequent to our hearing we checked on information. The research relates to average height and weight of 12-13 year olds in Northern Ireland in 1990. This data relates to research prepared for Northern Ireland Health Promotion Unit on 1990.

Witnesses:
Chief Inspector Lawrence Hiller ) Royal Ulster Constable Norman Millar ) Constabulary

922.

The Chairperson: We now move on to the next presentation and I welcome Chief Inspector Hiller and Constable Millar. You have had the opportunity to listen to proceedings and have an idea of the programme. I would ask you to make your presentation and we will then go to the questions. The issue is important and we have a considerable number of people who have wanted to make comments. We appreciate your presentation as well and it will be interesting to tease out some of the matters with you.

923.

Chief Inspector Hiller: As far as I am aware, you have already had access to legislation on this issue. I am sure you will agree with us that, to say the least, it is very unclear and ambiguous. The main legislation that the police operate within are: the Public Service Vehicles (Condition of Fitness, Equipment and Use) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1995; the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1995 and the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1999; and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000. This in itself shows that the legislation for this important area is spread across three pieces of legislation, each of which is quite complex and not exactly user-friendly from an enforcement point of view.

924.

The public service vehicles regulations provide us with the "3 for 2" rule, where children under 14 years of age occupy seats that do not have seat belts fitted. A child is defined as being under 14 years of age for the purposes of the concession. The Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1999 provide us with a definition of "bus" and "coach", and state that minibuses should be fitted with seat belts. Schedule 18 of that same piece of legislation outlines when certain bus services are exempted from having seat belts fitted. It also defines a child as being between the ages of three and 16 for the purposes of deciding which vehicles have to comply with seat belt regulations. The lighting regulations provide us with the circumstances when a bus must display relevant child signs on the front and rear, and also the exemptions to that requirement.

925.

The "3 for 2" rule, which is obviously an issue of contention, takes no account of the number of bags and amount of sports kit, including hockey sticks and so forth that children have to carry nowadays. Neither does it take account of a bus driver's ability to determine the age of the people on his bus when he collects them. We do not think that this is a workable, enforceable arrangement.

926.

In 1995 Translink stated that it believed that seat belts, in the form of lap belts, could increase injuries to school children in a frontal collision by thrusting their upper bodies forward into the non-absorbent seat back in front of them. They were of the opinion that seat belts needed to be put into vehicles at the manufacturing stage. In an ideal world, that is not in doubt.

927.

As a result of complaints of overcrowding on school buses, operations were carried out by the transport legislation enforcement branch in February 1996 in the Ballynahinch and Downpatrick area. No evidence was found to substantiate those complaints. In the past police have videoed buses carrying school children in order to determine if there were overcrowding. No overcrowding has been found. A bus must have over 102 children on board before it breaches the legislation. However, there is overcrowding in road safety terms. Complaints about overcrowding from parents and concerned organisations such as ourselves are based on road safety issues, not legislation issues.

928.

The main bus in use by far is the single-deck Ulsterbus. They are not minibuses within the legislation because they have more than eight seats. They are not coaches because they weigh over 7·5 tonnes and are restricted to 58 miles per hour. I will read the definition of a coach, direct from the legislation:

"A 'coach' means a large bus with a maximum gross weight of more than 7·5 tonnes and with a maximum speed exceeding 60 mph."

"A 'bus' means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than eight seated passengers in addition to the driver."

929.

Ulsterbuses are certainly not minibuses, but neither are they coaches. They are therefore not required to have seat belts fitted. The police would welcome clear, unambiguous legislation in relation to all aspects of the transportation of children, of whatever age, in buses and coaches to and from school. Our paramount priority is road safety, although we understand that there are other issues such as the environment and congestion. We want to see children on buses afforded the same opportunities for protection as afforded to those travelling in cars.

930.

While current statistics do not provide us with clear evidence of a serious problem, it is only a matter of time until we have a collision between a bus full of school children and a heavy goods vehicle, resulting in fatalities or serious injuries.

931.

Even the American system, which uses special school buses with passenger compartments, was reviewed following a serious collision between a bus and a heavy goods vehicle in 1997 when there were fatalities. A call was then made for seat belts to be fitted on the buses. I believe that this is now in hand, although I am not fully up to date with the American situation. There was an article in 'The Times', 17 August, about a company called First Group which had outlined proposals to introduce American-style buses fitted with seat belts to Great Britain.

932.

Passenger-carrying vehicles are currently limited to a speed limit of 62 mph.. Therefore even though an Ulsterbus is not classified as a coach, its speed is limited to 58 mph., which, in any event, is 4 mph. lower than the permitted rate. Subject to available resources, Traffic Branch has a commercial vehicle unit which carries out operations on buses and coaches once or twice a year. The last two-week operation was conducted in March. However, no offences came to light, because under existing legislation the buses were not overcrowded.

933.

I reiterate that the police want a single piece of clear and unambiguous legislation that deals with all the issues surrounding the transportation of school children. If it is within the power of this Committee and the Northern Ireland Assembly to deliver that, it would be welcomed by the police.

934.

The Chairperson: Thank you. We will tease out some of those issues, because you have touched upon several matters that have already been drawn to the Committee's attention.

935.

Ms Hanna: Thank you for your presentation. Has the RUC ever made representations to Translink about overcrowding, or other safety-related issues? Indeed, has Translink ever been charged with an offence?

936.

Chief Inspector Hiller: To my knowledge Translink has never been charged. The RUC has regular contact with Translink and the Department of the Environment at various levels and about various matters, through bodies such as the road safety review group, the transport steering group and the transport liaison group. A range of issues is also discussed at a local level with Translink and the Department of the Environment, or, as it is now known, the Department for Regional Development. Those meetings focus on issues such as school buses and overcrowding on them.

937.

Since 1995, the RUC has received complaints directly and indirectly from members of the public, and Translink has been approached. However, as a law enforcement agency, our work cannot extend beyond the legislation. That is why I emphasised the point that there is overcrowding, both in terms of legislation and road safety. The RUC believes that it should be one child on one seat, which has been fitted with a seat belt. We understand that that will be difficult to enforce, because it is not fair to ask the driver to do it. The RUC has approached Translink and discussed this issue with its officials on numerous occasions over the years.

938.

Mr McLaughlin: I read your submission with interest. Obviously, the Traffic Branch is as affected as the rest of the police by the problems we have in our society with policing. These are issues that we must and will resolve, but we are all agreed that our children's safety is paramount.

939.

I was particularly interested in your professional and technical opinion on American legislation on buses being overtaken when school children are embarking and disembarking. Could you elaborate on that point, and tell us if that system also has disadvantages?

940.

Chief Inspector Hiller: The concept of preventing traffic from passing a stationary bus, particularly when it is unloading children, is excellent. It is designed to stop a collision between a child running out onto the road and a passing vehicle. The American road infrastructure probably lends itself better to that scenario than do our roads. Roads here, especially in rural areas, are narrower, and there could be congestion. We are not sure if it is appropriate at this stage. Our motto is "Lets us walk before we run". We must get the buses right and put seat belts in place. We must put large amber lights on buses to make them clearly visible; hazard warning lights are inadequate because they are 18 inches from the ground and quite small. From behind a bus, all that can be seen is the right indicator flashing, and this is confusion. On the other hand, the American system is very clear. The concept is excellent. Americans seem to take these matters much more seriously than we have in the past. One long-standing problem in Northern Ireland is the policy of legislative parity with Great Britain. We accept what Great Britain has and we do not take the problem forward ourselves. The American system gives us very definite pointers.

941.

The Americans' experience is that, with their compartmentalised seating arrangements, there can still be injuries, particularly in the case of a side shunt, when a child might be thrown out of a compartment. The concept is good, but we would like some further research to see whether stopping for the loading and unloading of passengers is feasible, bearing in mind our different infrastructure.

942.

Mr McLaughlin: Is a pilot scheme - or perhaps even two - worth considering to test the system in urban and rural contexts?

943.

Chief Inspector Hiller: Yes. It is a good idea, because with a pilot scheme the way forward is not set in stone. You do not look foolish if things do not work out. A pilot scheme could be put in place, run for a year or whatever and then it could be evaluated and amended if necessary.

944.

Mr Ford: I should like to follow up that point. I am slightly concerned that your submission refers to worries about only congestion and traffic obstruction in relation to the proposal to ban overtaking. I have concerns, which no one has yet been able to answer in their evidence, about whether teaching children to jump off a bus and run across the road might be a bad thing if it encourages them to be careless. Do you have any thoughts on the plan's general road safety aspects? I appreciate that it is not necessarily your branch's specialism. If we ban vehicles from passing stationary school buses, is that a discouragement to children when we teach them to be careful on the roads in general?

945.

Chief Inspector Hiller: I should not like to think so. At the end of the day, in an ideal world, everyone does what they are supposed to do. If we were able to glean sufficient information from every American state, the total number of drivers given tickets for breaking the rule against the overtaking of a stationary school bus would probably be in the thousands. A system is put in place which produces the safest results, but you must always allow for the individual. It is like drink-driving, because no matter what is spent on advertising, and regardless of the level of enforcement, there will always be people who insist on drinking and driving. So even if legislation is in place, there will always be people who will insist on overtaking. It is very important that children are taught this.

946.

Mr Ford: On that point, one of the submissions we received - I believe from Transport 2000 - re- commended a 20 mph speed limit when driving past a stationary bus rather than a blanket ban on passing. Do you see the benefit that a 20 mph limit would at least ensure, as a general rule, that people do not drive past at more than 30 mph?

947.

Chief Inspector Hiller: There is a problem with a 20 mph limit. In Belfast there are some 20-mph zones in areas with large numbers of children. They are generally put in place with accompanying physical traffic-calming measures, thereafter becoming self- enforcing. The problem is one of enforcement. To enforce a 20 mph zone on a main road - or even on a side road where a bus stops - without physical measures means that you would have to have speed detection equipment. We do not have the resources to follow it up. The concept sounds good, but we have to look at it from an enforceability point of view. That is the problem we would have with 20 mph zones and I know the Department is considering such zones for schools. The Association of Chief Police Officers would be opposed to such zones unless they were accompanied by physical traffic-calming measures which would make vehicles slow down.

948.

Mr Watson: In your submission you express concern about the increase in traffic that will result if legislation on the number of children who can travel on a bus is changed. Surely, parents are likely to encourage their children to go on buses if they are a safer and more comfortable form of transport? That should reduce the number of cars being used to drive children to school, especially in the mornings.

949.

Chief Inspector Hiller: It is a guesstimate. On the one hand the number of buses would increase substantially if it was one child per seat, wearing a seat belt. That would be balanced by parents who felt their child was safe on a school bus and they would no longer drive them to school.

950.

In reality, some parents will be concerned about a child's safety getting on and off the bus. In the American system children are dropped off a reasonable distance from home, but here there is an element of personal safety, as opposed to road safety, and some parents will always take their children to school and collect them afterwards. For that reason, I cannot answer the question accurately. We have highlighted this as an issue because we realise that environmental matters are also involved.

951.

Mr M Murphy: I understand that complaints which should be going to your department may not be doing so because of the present situation. You said that 413 children have been injured while travelling on school buses. Through your investigations, how many of those accidents have been caused by children standing on buses?

952.

Chief Inspector Hiller: Unfortunately our statistics branch and accident investigation systems do not record such specifics. Accident investigation and statistics are very complex and I am sorry that I do not have an example of a police officer's accident record form to show to the Committee. The form is very complicated because the officer is trying to gather as much evidence as possible. Unfortunately there is not enough evidence at present to justify us being more specific in this area. Statistics relating to children being injured going to and from school on buses do not indicate a major problem. With finite resources and with the effort that already goes into accident investigations, we do not collect that type of information.

953.

As I said earlier, it would only take one bus jam-packed with about a hundred children colliding with a heavy goods vehicle to make this a major issue. We now see it as a major issue and we hope that the Committee and the Assembly will give us legislation that is workable and enforceable.

954.

Mr McLaughlin: Would it be fair to say that in your opinion there is a disaster waiting to happen?

955.

Chief Inspector Hiller: It is only a matter of time. Look at the American system - they have what is considered one of the best systems in the world, but accidents still happen. I have a newspaper cutting here about a crash in Minnesota where there were three fatalities and many children were seriously injured.

956.

Mr Ford: In your submission you say that it is not safe to carry any standing passengers on a bus. Do you see any difference between buses operating in a built-up area with a 30 mph limit and buses operating outside such areas? Would it be possible to produce legislation? I am thinking of the way in which buses tend to become overcrowded in the last mile or two of their journey to school. Would it be a realistic way of dealing with the problems of investment in buses to allow some standing passengers in urban areas but disallow this outside the 30 mph limit?

957.

Chief Inspector Hiller: The main killer on the roads of Northern Ireland is speed. The national speed limit is 60 mph, and buses are restricted to 58 mph, which is as near to 60 mph as makes no difference. You have to conclude that if a bus is in a rural environment, where there is less congestion, and a collision takes place, you are looking at serious injuries at best, even to seated passengers. The seat backs and so forth are non-absorbent, so they do not absorb the impact. Anyone standing will automatically become a projectile, particularly in a frontal impact. There will obviously be a pile-up towards the front of the bus. These buses can quite legitimately carry 22 people standing, and they all start to pile up. There is definitely more potential for serious injuries and fatalities in a rural environment than in an urban one.

958.

The Chairperson: I think you said that when parents or teachers have come to you and talked about perceived overcrowding, you have found that there is no actual overcrowding. Is that with respect to the legal limits?

959.

Chief Inspector Hiller: Yes. If we stop a bus and count less than 101 under-14s, that is legal. However, it is hard to determine what a 14-year-old looks like these days. I am not a big fella, and some of them tower above me. There are 14-year-olds who are over 6 feet tall. One of the anomalies in this legislation is that a bus driver is expected to determine who is 14 years of age and who is not. I think there is an internal Translink policy under which nobody should be left standing at the side of the road. Everyone should be picked up.

960.

The Chairperson: Turning to the marking of buses for school transport so as to clearly identify them as such, Translink has told us that

"Given that school transport is fully integrated with public services, this question really means that all Ulsterbus vehicles would be required to display the signage which would negate the value of the suggestion. Any suggestion that the sign should be displayed on school journeys and not on other journeys is virtually unworkable in practice. Ulsterbus vehicles often display the legend 'School Bus' or the school name on their destination display, but only when it is unlikely to cause confusion to other passengers. Most buses cannot display destination information to the rear."

961.

What do you think about that?

962.

Chief Inspector Hiller: I can understand where Translink is coming from on this one. Our paramount priority is road safety, and I am not looking at all the funding issues, which could be horrendous. Anyone who comes into Belfast from a rural area each day will, I am sure, have come across numerous Ulsterbuses jam-packed with children with "School Bus" on the front destination board.

963.

In our view it is simply not right, it is not safe. Without commenting on Translink, common sense would tell you that unless you take steps to restrict the potential for a serious accident, it is only a matter of time until it happens.

964.

The Chairperson: In your submission you said that the carriage and safety of school children is an emotive issue for parents and the community. It is also a real issue. You also said that it has been a source of complaint for many years, particularly the number of school children carried. If that is the case, have the police been making representations to the Department to do something about it? If so, why has no action been taken? While it is true that Ministers come and go, it is civil servants who guide and deal with much of the legislation.

965.

Chief Inspector Hiller: This file contains letters to the Department highlighting the concerns of parents and the police about the number of children carried on school buses, and requesting that the legislation is urgently examined and steps taken to redress the anomalies. Unfortunately the policy has been, and it was reiterated in the letters responding to our requests, that parity be maintained with Great Britain's legislation. Right up to this day we take on board what Great Britain has put in place, it is a straight lift.

966.

The answer is yes, we have approached the Department. We have raised the issue on several occasions and asked for a change in legislation but the response has been the parity of legislation. But the legislation is not adequate.

967.

The Chairperson: Do you understand why, or how, any company can get insurance to cover up to 100 children on a bus?

968.

Chief Inspector Hiller: I do not know the ins and outs of the insurance industry. What I do know is that it is madness to have so many children on a bus. Whether insurance companies look at the legislative issues or not, I am not sure. I do not know how Translink's insurance is affected, whether it is a fleet insurance or whatever.

969.

Constable Millar: It is a surety.

970.

Chief Inspector Hiller: If it is a surety it means, to a great extent, that it is insuring itself. Therefore, it is not a commercial liability, but if it is within legislation I assume that you are insurable.

971.

The Chairperson: We need to put on record that while we are talking about Translink - we have to because it is the carrier - none of us are bashing Translink, because it does not set down the numbers. Translink also enters into a voluntary restriction. However, we are discovering that voluntary restriction has been exceeded on a number of occasions and, therefore, we have to work with the number that the legislation permits. If the legislation is wrong, people who work within it cannot be blamed for carrying out what a legislator has set down.

972.

Chief Inspector Hiller: This file covers the past five years only, but it is an issue we look at regularly. We are restricted as to what we can enforce. We can only enforce what the legislation allows us to enforce. The legislation is unclear. One issue is dealt with over three sets of legislation. If I find it confusing - and I work with legislation- how can any lay person interpret this legislation? It is not user-friendly in any shape or form, either for the police, transport personnel or anybody who is involved with it.

973.

The Chairperson: One final question. We all want to live in an ideal world, and we all want things that we perceive are being wrong to be put right immediately. If you were given the opportunity of an incremental move on the issue, and seat belts, the "3 for 2" rule and standing were the three options, which would you choose in the interests of the safety of children and quality of service? I am not saying that is the way it will be recommended, I am only saying "if". I am trying to tease out your opinion.

974.

Chief Inspector Hiller: For us, it would be a toss-up between the standing and the "3 for 2". If I had to prioritise them - and this is on the basis of no specific research into these two areas - I would eliminate standing passengers first, followed by the "3 for 2" rule. At least with the "3 for 2" rule they are seated, in theory. But standing passengers in a frontal impact simply become projectiles down the length of the bus.

975.

The Chairperson: In your presentation there seemed to be a different point of view from other witnesses in that you believed that seat belts should fitted in buses. How would you make that a reality?

976.

Chief Inspector Hiller: You mean in relation to compliance?

977.

The Chairperson: Yes.

978.

Chief Inspector Hiller: It is not easy. Parents and schools have a responsibility to educate children. It is unrealistic to expect the bus driver to stop every five minutes to check who is wearing their seat belt.

979.

The Chairperson: So you believe that supervision is something that should be looked into, even without the seat belts?

980.

Chief Inspector Hiller: I think it would be appropriate. Going back a few years, when we had conductors on buses, at least you had some degree of control over the passenger-carrying area of the bus. But some form of supervision - whether it be supplied by the schools, suitably trained and interested parents or Translink - is needed. To ensure compliance, somebody has to make sure it is enacted. We cannot put police officers on every bus travelling around the country, but education, followed by some form of supervision, would be a great step forward.

981.

The Chairperson: Some people would say that you are giving away your age when talk about the bus conductors.

982.

Chief Inspector Hiller: I was thinking about that. I realised it was being recorded. [Laughter]

983.

The Chairperson: Gentlemen, could I thank you very much indeed. Your submission, presentation and responses to our questions have been informative and helpful. We will look carefully at your submission, and all the other submissions, and I hope we come up with a suitable response. Good afternoon.

Chief Inspector Hiller: Thank you very much for the opportunity.

Witnesses:
Mr I McCutcheon ) Northern Ireland Private
Mr S Logan ) Coach Operators

984.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are very welcome to this meeting of the Committee for the Environment. Please make your presentation and then we will go into a question session.

985.

Mr McCutcheon: I am Ian McCutcheon and my colleague is Seán Logan. We are both private coach operators and represent the private industry. Between us we offer a fairly wide view of the typical private coach operator. I operate a small fleet of four vehicles in the west of the Province, near Enniskillen. Mr Logan operates a fleet of over 40 vehicles in County Antrim. We are representative of the industry, covering the whole country and the average scale of business.

986.

We want to highlight the difference between the regulations we are asked to operate and those which both Ulsterbus and the education boards are asked to operate. Statutory seat belts have already been introduced into the private industry. We have to install seat belts in our vehicles and have to have a seat per child. Most of the work carried out by private operators is under contract hire, as opposed to stage carriage, under which most of the Ulsterbus routes operate.

987.

The basic difference is that an education board will contract us for a certain length of time on a certain route, at set times, and we are paid a lump sum per day. The board supplies the names and addresses of the children and there are no fares involved.

988.

Traditionally this has involved special care schools and the carriage of children with special needs, but it has gone no further. The main provision for school transport has always gone to board transport itself or to Ulsterbus, which supplies passes for a price per child.

989.

The gap in the numbers being carried has widened between the two operating procedures. In accordance with the document from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency regarding the installation of seat belts in coaches and minibuses, we have had to introduce the seat belt legislation, which was very complicated and protracted. That has been a difficult procedure, because many of these vehicles were not built or designed for seat belts. That causes problems for some private coach operators in having their vehicles passed. This year the Department of the Environment introduced a special one-off test for private coaches and buses to take account of the seat belt installations. We have had the pleasure of being charged extra money to have vehicles tested.

990.

Private operators like ourselves are arriving at a school with a number of children on the bus - whatever the number of seats is - they are all seat-belted, all checked by the Board, all-singing, all-dancing. Meanwhile, the Ulsterbuses and school buses around them are loaded to the gills.

991.

We are not bashing Ulsterbus; we take umbrage at the regulations, not with the operator carrying them out. The Ulsterbus routes are normally stage carriage service, which means that its passengers pay a fare. In theory, its buses can stop and pick up any member of the public; in practice, however, that would be impossible because the buses are full of schoolchildren.

992.

The other side of the coin is that as it runs the stage carriage services, Ulsterbus is perfectly entitled to claim a fuel duty rebate. We are not yet able to do that in any sphere of our coaching operation. In the light of the current fuel crisis, we would like to be able to reclaim the duty on contract and private hire work.

993.

As regards signage, we already have yellow signs with two children marked on them on the front and rear of vehicles operating home-to-school transport. Most of our members feel that that is adequate. They would resist its further development, because the amount of work, and profit gained from school transport would not allow them to set aside a vehicle for it, and to have it painted in a particular colour or have it signed. If the system were opened to give them the opportunity for more school work, having a vehicle painted for that purpose would be a viable proposition.

994.

There is no reason for private operators not to undertake more school work. At the moment, all they can do is what they are offered under tender. All of the work which I have described is offered by the boards, normally on a three-year basis, and it goes to tender every three years for the routes. For many years it has only been for a year, and has only recently been raised to three years. This has not helped with the investment in the vehicles for that sort of work, because in the past no one was guaranteed more than 12 months' work. It has stretched now to three years, which has helped.

995.

I have seen this in my own area, in which an integrated school has opened and which has not immediately come fully under the wing of the education boards. Rather than buy new school buses and have them operated by the board, it has contracted in private operators to fill the gap until the school is functioning.

996.

In most cases private transport that was initially brought in has been retained because it has worked well and the boards have not had to invest in equipment and machinery which would have lain idle. We see that as a way forward. It would be more viable if private operators were offered more work and were used not only for home-to-school journeys, but for all other activities, for example, school-to-swimming journeys.

997.

In my own area in particular the larger vehicles in the board's fleet are very old and finance is a major problem. There is no easy way forward; money is the bottom line in all of this. But we have to decide which is the priority - money or safety. If the education boards feel so strongly about safety that they give us conditions to operate under - signage, seat belts, the one child per seat rule - it is only right that they should introduce them into their own fleets.

998.

The Deputy Chairperson: Obviously a small part of the school transport market is private hire - have you any idea what percentage? Is it growing, apart from the integrated schools?

999.

Mr McCutcheon: No, I do not see any evidence of that. There are a few cases - as you say - in integrated education. From my own experience, some operators have had to take children from other schools because of overloading on the Ulsterbus or education board routes. But there is no significant growth in the number of routes being put out to tender at the moment. Ulsterbus still maintains that it needs to control that; that it needs the revenue to maintain its fleet. Most private operators would probably take the view that they already have enough grants to cover unprofitable work.

1000.

The Deputy Chairperson: Is it a very small percentage?

1001.

Mr McCutcheon: Yes, and the vehicles tend to be small - minibuses, for example - carrying a small number of children, normally to a special school.

1002.

Mr Doherty: Thank you for your presentation. You clearly feel aggrieved that you are working under very different regulations than either Translink or the education boards, and that obviously has financial implications for you.

1003.

While we are very conscious of the costs involved, we are mainly concerned with the safety of the children. Does the service that you provide and the regulations that you have to comply with provide a safer method of transport than the other two?

1004.

Mr McCutcheon: Yes. The new legislation, including that concerning seat belts, has been very difficult to iron out. Those in authority introduced it because they must have thought that it was the right way to go. And if that was the right way to go, it should be introduced for all vehicles and transport.

1005.

It seems ironic that we should go to the expense and bother of transporting children to school safely if they can then jump out of one of my "supersafe" luxury coaches only to cram into a 30-year-old school bus to take them on the rest of their journey.

1006.

Mr Doherty: Rather than making things easier for you or relaxing the regulations, they should be made more stringent for Translink.

1007.

Mr McCutcheon: That might be one way, but a meeting in the middle might be the easiest option. We realise that it would be very difficult for every school bus and Translink vehicle to introduce seatbelts suddenly.

1008.

Mr Logan: Although a vehicle must be equipped with seatbelts, there is no legislation to say whose responsibility it is to make children wear them. There might be 53 people on a bus with access to a seatbelt, but the chances are they will not be wearing it. It is a really strange legislation. It was brought in for the safety and comfort of passengers but there are so many loopholes in it that it has become a white elephant as far as we are concerned.

1009.

Mr McCutcheon: Most of the private operators we spoke to said that children do not wear the seatbelts at all. Therefore to go to the expense of fitting them in Translink vehicles is questionable without some sort of supervision or legislation to enforce them. That might solve the problem.

1010.

Mr Doherty: You said that some of your coaches are not ideally suited for fitting seatbelts. What is the average working life of a coach being used for school children?

1011.

Mr McCutcheon: A frontline vehicle in the private industry normally tends to be "demoted" from tour work to local work to school work. It has a working life of 20 years.

1012.

Mr Logan: In theory it is about 20 years, but in practise it is 10.

1013.

Mr McCutcheon: In practice 10 years would be a normal working life.

1014.

Mr Logan: There comes a point when you have to balance the viability of keeping a vehicle on the road and safety.

1015.

Mr Doherty: Many old coaches were not designed to take seatbelts.

1016.

Mr McCutcheon: No. The latest vehicles have supports built under seats which have been built into rails the entire length of the vehicle, whereas the older vehicles would probably have had a wooden floor. The problem is that if a belt is fitted, the frame of the seat may not be strong enough and even if it is the entire seat may pull out of the wooden floor.

1017.

Mr Logan: Age is not always necessarily the issue. A 1996 vehicle was tested a few weeks ago - it has been tested annually and found to be in perfect condition, until this year - and because of the seat belt legislation we have a considerable sum of money to pay. We cannot emphasise strongly enough that we are not bitching, for want of a better word, about the costs involved; all we are asking for is a level playing field.

1018.

Mr Poots: Are you allowed to use the "3 for 2" policy?

1019.

Mr McCutcheon: No, not at all, because we have to have the belts fitted, and where the belts are fitted there has to be a seat per child.

1020.

Mr Poots: So if your coach is a 53-seater and a school asks you to take two classes of 30 children each on a field trip, you would have to turn that job down.

1021.

Mr McCutcheon: Or send two coaches and charge them for both.

1022.

Mr Poots: The school could ask Ulsterbus to do it with one coach.

1023.

Mr McCutcheon: That happens daily.

1024.

Mr Watson: With 53 children on a bus, do you encounter any behavioural problems? If so, how do you handle them?

1025.

Mr McCutcheon: I am glad to say that we have very few problems in my own area. I am not sure why that is so, perhaps because of the more luxurious vehicle in which the children are transported. Often, we do not have a full coach, but I do not know how much that affects behaviour. Perhaps Fermanagh children are very well behaved. It is not a major problem. The wearing of belts would pose a bigger supervision problem on coaches. In most cases we see supervision needed to force children to wear seatbelts rather than for difficult behaviour. There are incidents from time to time, of course, but nothing major.

1026.

Mr Logan: We seldom have problems with behaviour, and when we do, we have the opportunity to go back to the school in question. By and large, the schools deal with it themselves.

1027.

Mr M Murphy: You say that you would like to see more business. What is preventing your getting more? In your submission, there seems to be a problem with loading and unloading at schools. What traffic calming measures would you like to see put in place?

1028.

Mr McCutcheon: We were discussing this earlier to get an idea of variations throughout the country. Many of the schools in my area are not on the main road. They have an area set aside at the front of the school for loading and unloading, which helps. The only thing which might need to be considered is that they only load and unload at the side of the road next to the school. In other words, they do not drop children off on the opposite side of the road, which would mean that they would have to cross it. Even when there is a crossing or a patrol person present, as soon as there are 50 or 100 children - if more than one bus pulls up at the same time - they just go across the road. We are fully behind the coach going farther, turning and coming back to drop the children off on the same side of the road as the school.

1029.

Nothing at all prevents our taking on extra work, except that it is not on offer at the moment. Routes serviced by vehicles from the board and from Translink do not go out to tender and never have. We should be more than happy to consider operating them either as stage carriage or contract routes, but we have not been given the opportunity.

1030.

Mr M Murphy: You would prefer their going out to tender?

1031.

Mr McCutcheon: Indeed. We should welcome that.

1032.

Mr Logan: The argument is always made that private operators would cherry-pick the lucrative routes. However, we do not see that as a real issue.

1033.

Mr McCutcheon: There have been efforts to introduce new vehicle designs, particularly in the English market, to alleviate some of the problems since seat belts were introduced. Two manufacturers have now introduced vehicles with three seats on one side and two on the other, allowing up to 70 children to be carried, all with seatbelts. However, the uptake has been very low, for neither the amount of work available from schools nor the profit is enough to justify buying that sort of vehicle, for that is its only use.

1034.

It is an ongoing problem, for it is difficult to justify the expense of buying and running a modern vehicle with all the latest safety features if one only has an hour's work in the morning and afternoon a few days a week. We are keen to see more and longer routes, and more work between the home and school runs, perhaps swimming trips.

1035.

Alternatively, schools' starting times could be staggered, as happens in some parts of the United States. That would allow an operator and a bus to do more than one route everyday, and it would help justify the cost.

1036.

Mr Ford: I want to go back to Mr M Murphy's point about loading and unloading. I do not think that it is mentioned in your written submission, but it is a matter which has exercised the Committee. Should vehicles be stopped from passing buses which are loading and unloading children?

1037.

Mr McCutcheon: In recent years, legislation has allowed buses to put their hazard warning lights on when they are loading or unloading at the side of the road. We also have yellow signs on the front and back of the bus. I have seen some difference. Some drivers voluntarily stop behind a bus and check for alighting children. However, I operate in a quieter rural area. I do not imagine that that would be the norm in the bigger towns and cities.

1038.

Mr Ford: Of course, some of the problems are principally rural ones. An incident on a road in the Ards Peninsula brought it to a head.

1039.

Mr McCutcheon: That is right. There have been several fatalities in Fermanagh in recent years caused by children jumping off a bus and immediately shooting across the road into oncoming traffic. Policing and enforcing that policy would be the biggest problem, because of the number and spread of the vehicles involved. The majority of school transportation happens during an hour and a half to two hour period. Who is going to police all the vehicles operating all over the country during that time?

1040.

Mr Logan: It would be a good idea to educate the public about the dangers when loading and unloading children.

1041.

Mr McCutcheon: Better to educate the public than introduce legislation to create fines. It has always been the norm in the States. It might prove difficult to introduce it suddenly here. An education programme for the public would be worth thinking about.

1042.

Mr Ford: I want to deal with the point in your written submission concerning competition with Ulsterbus, if that is the right term. If this was adopted as a policy, what could be done to transfer more home-to-school work to the private sector? A bus passes my home which is 90% full of schoolchildren and the remaining 10% are adults going to work. Clearly, if that bus was simply under an education board contract, there would not be a viable public transport service on what is a largely rural route. How would you deal with that problem? Do you charge per pupil or per mile or do you use another system? How could that be integrated with existing Ulsterbus services?

1043.

Mr McCutcheon: There are two points. At the moment the charges for our contract hire routes are normally calculated per day, and the education board pays that every month. There is absolutely no reason why we could not operate the same stage carriage service, as it is known, provided that the Department of the Environment was prepared to issue a licence. Translink objected every time a private operator applied for a stage carriage service licence. It says that it is the Province's stage-carriage provider. It is taken for granted that it will object, and nine times out of 10 the Department will uphold the objection. There is no reason why private operators could not run an identical stage carriage service, which would also allow them to pick up adults or any fare-paying passenger.

1044.

Mr Logan: The rule of thumb suggests that 90% of the places may be for children and that 10% of places must be kept for fare paying passengers before it can constitute a stage carriage service. In practise, however, this does not happen at all. At present, the buses are loaded to the gills with children. It is a blind alley. It should not be a case of what cannot be done. If the rules were being applied across the board, whether the bus can carry 10 adults and 91 children would not be an issue. If the bus is a 53-seater service, then there should be 53 people allowed on board. If the cost of each child is to increase to ensure the children's safety, that will be a price worth paying.

1045.

Mr McCutcheon: We do not want to be seen as being in competition with Ulsterbus. We want to supplement the service that it provides. There is little sense in replacing an overcrowded Ulsterbus with an overloaded private coach. We do not want to do what it is doing. We want to help to alleviate the problem by providing more vehicles into the system without the Government and local authorities having to carry all of the financial burden. For example, a private operator may be hired. He will be paid for his services and that is the end of the matter. If the education board is to buy another vehicle, it will have to buy the vehicle and employ a driver. If it brings in a Translink vehicle, Translink will claim the 50% of the value of grants for all its purchases, and it will also claim back other moneys, such as concessionary fares. Therefore, this will cost more than a private operator hired to add additional services to the transport service.

1046.

Mrs Carson: I understand why you want a level playing field. If one has a car with seatbelts, one is expected to use the seatbelts provided. It is against the law not to do this, and one may incur a sizeable fine. I do not understand why there is legislation insisting that seat belts be placed in coaches, if they are not used. Would you like to see legislation enforcing the use of seat belts? Has that been lacking in the legislation so far? How would it be implemented?

1047.

Mr McCutcheon: In an ideal world, every child would get on the bus, fit his seatbelt and, in theory, be much safer. However, we do not wish to see that onus placed on our drivers, who have more than enough to worry about on each journey. This includes driving a large vehicle with passengers on board, often through rush-hour traffic. We all know what traffic is like at school time in every town. This is what the drivers of these buses must concentrate on. It is lunacy to go to the considerable bother and expense of fitting seat belts, if the passengers are under no compulsion to wear them. Our difficulty is in deciding who has the responsibility for seatbelts being worn.

1048.

Mr Logan: The schools ought to be held responsible when schoolchildren are being transported. Teachers perform gate duties, so why can they not arrange for the supervision of bus duties as well?

1049.

Mrs Carson: I imagine that the teaching staff would have something to say about that. In the event of an emergency stop on one of your coaches does your insurance cover children who are sitting in the seats without seatbelts?

1050.

Mr McCutcheon: The passengers are not legally obliged to wear seatbelts. It is only compulsory for the bus services to have them fitted to the vehicle.

1051.

Mrs Carson: Has an insurance claim ever been made against any of your hired vehicles involving a child passenger in an accident caused by an emergency stop?

1052.

Mr McCutcheon: No, not that I am aware of.

1053.

The Chairperson: I apologise for not being here at the beginning. There was some good news concerning jobs and I was with the Minister.

1054.

I will study your evidence very carefully. You say that you are looking for a level playing field. Life is never simple; it involves making choices. It would be nice if every child could be seated. Three children sitting on a seat on which two children are supposed to be sitting is far from ideal. However, even if there must be seatbelts, who will make children wear them? Who will supervise that? Standing on school buses is something which has caused concern to many parents.

1055.

We have to make the choice between two children sitting on two seats, or three children sitting on two seats; between having seatbelts or not having seatbelts; between children standing on school buses or not. If you were told that we are working towards improving of all of those, but can only do so in an incremental way, which would you say is the most important?

1056.

Mr McCutcheon: We would aim for a com- promise. We all know what the ideal scenario would be. At the moment, the first step would be to have no standing passengers. We would like to see the regulations regarding the two types of transport - our own and the state-run one - brought closer together. We are not allowed to carry children on the "3 for 2" principle. That legislation could be eased in the short term, just for the home-to-school transport, so that we could also carry "3 for 2", in order to meet halfway. The nearest you will get to a halfway house is if there are no standing passengers on the boards' and Translink's vehicles, and if we are permitted to revert to "3 for 2" just for the home-to-school transport.

1057.

The Chairperson: If one removed the standing children - and there are quite a lot of them - would there be a need for more buses?

1058.

Mr McCutcheon: Absolutely. It is inevitable, if 20 people were suddenly to be taken off each bus. All of the vehicles are running to capacity at the moment. This does not affect an odd school on an odd route; virtually every school bus is loaded to the door.

1059.

The Chairperson: Rather than Translink being faced with a massive bill for providing new buses, you feel that private operators -

1060.

Mr McCutcheon: I am quite sure that private operators would be happy to step into the gap. As I said earlier, they have already done so in the case of integrated schools where no Ulsterbuses or board buses were laid on. The private operators have been more than happy to step in and fill the gap. They have been retained in that role and we would be happy to see that happen again. It is inevitable that there would have to be more vehicles if one suddenly took 20 children off each bus with standing passengers. The children must still get to school. We see this as the easiest and most cost-effective option.

1061.

The Chairperson: Gentlemen, thank you.

Witnesses:
Mr Dermot Mullan ) Council for Catholic Mr Gerry Corr ) Maintained Schools

1062.

The Chairperson: We call for the next part of our evidence, to be given by Mr Dermot Mullan and Mr Gerry Corr form the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools.

1063.

Gentlemen, you are welcome this morning. You have heard at least part of the previous submission. Perhaps when you listened to the questions you were able to see how the Committee works. You may also have seen the problems to which answers have to be sought. We will ask you to give us a short submission, and then we will proceed to the questions. We will try to make the question and answer session as profitable as possible.

1064.

Mr Mullan: I am Dermot Mullan, Head of School Planning and Development for the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and my colleague Mr Gerry Corr is the Health and Safety Officer for the council. I would like to summarise our written submission to the Committee. On the surface, this issue does not lie within the remit of the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools. However, the council has the legislative right to put forward its views on issues which it deems to impinge on the lives of the children in the 527 Catholic maintained schools. This issue has been pertinent for many years and has exercised a lot of minds. I therefore wish the Committee well with its deliberations. It is an extremely important issue for parents, children, school authorities, and for the CCMS.

1065.

The legislation as we understand it is due for an overhaul. In some ways, it is an antiquated, even archaic, piece of legislation. Our submission did not emphasise that children in our schools - possibly because of the National Health Service -are better nourished than they were several years ago. This is evidenced by the fact that they are now bigger in stature. The three-to-a-seat rule may have sufficed years ago, but not now. It is not unusual to see children of 6 feet, and 10 or 12 stone in weight, which would be the build of the boys in my family. The three-to-a-seat rule is therefore ridiculous.

1066.

My second point involves looking at the issue from an educational point of view. The Northern Ireland curriculum has been in place for 10 years and requires children to study 14 or 15 subjects in secondary or grammar school. The breadth of the curriculum ranges from practical and vocational subjects to those that are strictly academic. This means children have to bring materials and equipment to school for subjects as diverse as art, home economics, science and technology.

1067.

Those subjects not only require the students to carry their schoolbags, but also portfolio boxes and materials for home economics. That adds to the confusion, the overloading and the occupation of space on buses. Eleven year olds who do 14 or 15 subjects not only have to get on the bus, but they also face the problems of overcrowding on buses and the health and safety risks of embarking and disembarking. Those problems must be considered when examining the present legislation concerning the carriage of children on buses.

1068.

Children are being encouraged to stay at school post-16, and targets are being laid down for that. More and more students are staying at school beyond 16 years of age, and the 16 to 18 year old age group is on the increase. More students staying at school in the modern curriculum exacerbates the problem.

1069.

Health and safety aspects have been thought- provoking for the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools because it has had regular deputations and requests from schools regarding the home/school run. It is unfortunate that our schools have not been financed to provide safe areas for buses to enter school premises and come off the main roads to avoid the congestion that builds up from 8.30 am to 9.30 am and 2.30 pm to 3.30 pm or 4.00 pm.

1070.

With regard to health and safety, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools is concerned about the discipline or potential for ill discipline on buses due to overcrowding. The previous contributors suggested that teachers should be responsible for ensuring that children are wearing safety belts. That is not realistic. Teachers cannot be with the pupils in the mornings to ensure that they wear seatbelts. However, teachers try their best and school regimes are encouraged to provide teacher supervision for students boarding buses at various times of the day.

1071.

With regard to health and safety, bus drivers have a duty of care to those they carry, to other road users and to themselves. In some cases, that is being ignored, and an anomaly has arisen between the education and library board provisions and those laid down by Translink. It is a disparate situation where the education and library board buses have a different health and safety regime. The Council for Catholic Maintained Schools realises that the Environment Committee is deeply involved with that anomaly. The risk-assessment exercise needs to be carried out carefully and the results of that must be acted upon by all of the carrying authorities.

1072.

The Kirklees Community Partnership in West Yorkshire has undertaken work on that issue and has published excellent material. The School Travel Advisory Group (STAG) in the United Kingdom published adequate material on the school run and on initiatives to avoid the starting up of traffic and the safety of pupils to work. Though I know that you do not wish to reinvent the wheel, these publications are very constructive.

1073.

A White Paper that is being published in the United Kingdom - 'A New Deal for Transport: Better for Everyone' - also points to greater involvement and a holistic approach towards the transport problem. School travel resource packs are also available from the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions.

1074.

I was struck by a comment from the previous contributor. We too are concerned that there should be joined-up government. This issue is a good example because the Environment Committee, the Education Committee, and the interests of rural provision are all involved. We are anxious that changes in the transport policy could have an adverse impact on rural schools.

1075.

The Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) is in the business of trying to keep rural schools open where they are viable and meet a need. We are concerned that the heart of the local community should be retained by an arterial transport system. I would like to pay tribute to the transport service provided by the education boards. Board buses are used to transport children to and from rural isolated schools. They are also used for curricular activities and provide access to a breadth of experience which is necessary for a young person's development.

1076.

Insurance premiums are increasing, partly because there is greater readiness by road users to engage in litigation for minor injury accident outcomes. We applaud the Environment Committee for investigating the insurance regime of taxis for home to school runs and buses.

1077.

There are structural and systemic shortcomings in the present system. If these are not addressed, they could make the duty of care obligations placed on service providers very difficult to achieve. Sometimes, this is made manifest by the anti-social behaviour of pupils on buses because they are overcrowded. Unrealistic passenger management expectations are placed upon drivers in the context of child protection. The protection of children travelling to and from school is uppermost in everyone's mind. This is important work for the Environment Committee, and we would like to see a public and private partnership. In an ideal world, we would try to aspire to the American model, but that may not always be possible.

1078.

There must be universal criteria applied uniformly to all transport providers. We must generate greater competition because that will raise the standards in the carriage of children to and from school. There has to be a uniform application of agreed risk assessment. We know that you are examining carriage capacities, and the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools feels that the present numbers are antiquated. There has to be greater protection for drivers, possibly through cellular communication, in case of an accident or untoward event. That would allow them to contact their base promptly and efficiently.

1079.

Under the Road Traffic (Northern Ireland) Order 1967, we would like to see a code of practice, for all school transport vehicles, enforced and endorsed by all. We are very much in favour of seat belts, but we feel that there is a huge anomaly. At present children must be seated and fitted with a seat belt on school minibuses. That is right and proper, and we should move towards that kind of system universally.

1080.

The Chairperson: You used some descriptive terms about the present legislation, and some people would agree with those. You also talked about your present and long-term aspirations. The Environment Committee is studying the present legislation. Our decision will have greater implications, not necessarily for the Department of the Environment, but for the Department for Regional Development and the Department of Education.

1081.

As you said, we have to look at the wide picture - the joined-up Government situation. The subject is large, and while we have aspirations, the time has now come for us to see how we can move in that direction. I will probably tease out some of those matters in a few moments.

1082.

Ms Hanna: Good morning, gentlemen. You are very welcome. I am aware, from reading your submission, that you have many concerns. Mr Mullan, you said that you have some legislative rights. Have you approached any Government Departments? If so, what has resulted from those approaches?

1083.

Mr Mullan: We have not made any approaches at the macro level - which is what you are asking, I think. We have not taken up this matter other than in giving advice to boards of governors. We do talk to the Department of Education, their building advisory branch, and their civil engineers regarding turning circles and schoolchildren's safety, and so on.

1084.

Mr Corr: I just want to amplify what Mr Mullan has said about who we have collaborated with. Through our normal associations with the Education and Library Boards we have given a training course to transport officers. This was carried out at the regional training unit in Dunmurry. A sense of the dilemmas faced by drivers of public service vehicles - and I know the Committee has recently heard about this from previous witnesses - flowed from that course. Those dilemmas include the supervisory arrangements, and the degree to which drivers can fruitfully and properly exercise their duty of care. It is frustrating for them.

1085.

As Mr Mullan said, the duty of care can be an exceptionally difficult burden, especially in respect of children who have special needs and those who are wayward. The issue of where the duty of care impinges with the civil obligation as opposed to the criminal one - and there is a criminal element to this under separate legislation - is not appreciated by the public.

1086.

We have parents, drivers, schools and school- children interacting with each other in this context, and this is perhaps what the Committee is beginning to focus on now.

1087.

The Chairperson: Gentlemen, I thought that you were clearly indicating that the drivers have the duty of care. I thought that the idea that schools had any duty of care for children on buses was almost frowned upon. Is that not so?

1088.

Mr Corr: I would like to elaborate on that point. From a legal perspective, the driver is an employee. If the bus belongs to the Education and Library Board then the driver is an employee of the Board and the duty of care extends to him as an employee. That duty of care responsibility depends upon the situations that the driver can be faced with.

1089.

There is a civil dimension to the duty of care also, and that is the one that we owe to each other as citizens. While the driver has a custodial duty of care as far as the schoolchildren are concerned, I am sure that a court would take into account the practicalities of exercising that duty reasonably in a fraught situation such as an accident. It would depend on whether the driver would simultaneously be able to exercise his duty of care and drive the bus safely.

1090.

Mr Mullan: Our advice to schools is that they should care for their pupils no matter where they are. Schools should be prepared to take up the challenge of unruly behaviour which occurs on buses, and deal with it when it is reported by drivers or companies, because discipline extends beyond the hours of 9.00 am to 3.30 pm. The old-fashioned rule was that if a child was in school uniform he was the school's responsibility. Schools will help pupils to get on and off buses in an orderly fashion, but beyond that the duty of care becomes blurred because the driver and the company have undertaken responsibility to transport the children to a certain point. We believe that that and overcrowding lie clearly with the companies.

1091.

Mr Corr: Allow me to make one final point on this duty of care. Understandably, parents have a high expectation of duty of care, because a cultural change has occurred during the last 30 years. Parents have a very high expectation that their children will return to them in the evening in exactly the same condition in which they left in the morning. Perhaps they are not fully attuned to the legal niceties of the question of the discharge of this duty in certain sets of circumstances. However, we have to live with the fact that their expectations are high. It might be useful to transmit some public information about insurance matters and the general cultural issue.

1092.

Mr Poots: You mentioned antisocial behaviour several times in your written submission. Do you find it occasionally on some routes and on a regular basis on others?

1093.

Mr Mullan: Yes. There is no uniform reason for antisocial or unruly behaviour occurring on buses. We put it down largely to overcrowding on the buses. It is difficult to isolate the factors which cause unruly behaviour, but certainly, the manner and method by which pupils board and disembark from buses does not facilitate good order and conduct on the buses.

1094.

We have a lot of sympathy for the drivers, because as single-person operators they have to drive the bus, make sure that the passengers are looked after - be they children or adults - and they also have to pay attention to other road users. That is an onerous responsibility, particularly when carrying up to 101 passengers.

1095.

Mr Corr: I can give one anecdotal example. Some of the drivers who attended the course that we ran for the regional training unit mentioned that it was their impression that those children who engaged in unruly behaviour were fairly confident that they were almost immune to any kind of sanction. Though this was by no means universal, in certain circumstances they almost had a licence to misbehave. That places severe constraints on the driver. For example, it had been made clear to drivers that they could not simply decide to forcibly disembark any child, even if their behaviour was intolerable. Obviously, they cannot leave a child at the side of the road. They have undertaken carriage from the pick-up point to the school. There is a straight transfer of supervisory responsibility from when they board the bus to when they disembark at school. This is a systemic difficulty.

1096.

Mr Poots: Is there any merit in providing better communications for drivers, and having, for a period, either supervisors or video cameras on buses where problems occur on a regular basis?

1097.

Mr Corr: The drivers themselves said it would be desirable to have better communication for assistance. Essentially, they wanted mobile telephones. They were effectively both administrators and adjudicators of what should be done to protect the vehicle and its passengers in the event of a dire situation. They mentioned that the absence of communication only exacerbated the problem, so they asked for mobile phones. They also said that evidence could only be procured on some routes - as it is done on some public transportation routes - by the installation of on-board cameras.

1098.

Mr Mullan: May I briefly add that we encourage schools to apply the prefectorial system to secondary school buses, and that is taken up in many instances. Some senior students have prefect duties or rights on the buses, and they report back to the school authorities if there is unruly behaviour. That allows the school authorities to take appropriate disciplinary action, and it tends to help keep down unruly behaviour.

1099.

Mr Poots: This is slightly outside our Committee's remit, but are you concerned that bullying can take place on buses, with all the associated problems that that brings?

1100.

Mr Mullan: It is well documented that, with regard to school premises, there are three areas where bullying tends to be rife. One is in the playground when the teacher-to-pupil supervision ratio is greater than 300 to 400 children to one or two teachers; another is in locker areas and in those parts of the school where children congregate at certain times. The third area where this happens is on buses. Sometimes schoolchildren have a sort of hierarchical seating arrangement on buses, and territories are staked out. There are seats where the senior students sit and those where the junior students sit. As they go through their school life students move up towards the back of the bus. This sub-culture concerns us. Bullying can take place, and again, it is because of a lack of adequate supervision.

1101.

Mrs Carson: I think asking senior pupils to act as prefects puts an unfair burden on some children. They become unpaid supervisors for the schools. You mentioned that you received deputations. Did these representatives raise the issue of school transport and what was happening on school buses? What sort of incidents were described, and how have you been dealing with these to date?

1102.

Mr Mullan: With regard to your first comment, Mrs Carson, schools sometimes take the view that, as part of the education process, senior students will seek extra responsibility. It is just like prefects in schools, but simply transferred to buses. When it comes to filling in curriculum vitae, it is very useful for students to claim that they have a little more status and responsibility.

1103.

To answer your second point, as the upper tier of Catholic maintained schools management we regularly talk to school principals and school authorities through our education advisors about all aspects of school life, including bullying, health and safety, and supervision. We are teachers' employers and we often get questions about what reasonable expectations a principal can have with regard to asking teachers to supervise at certain times in certain places, and what their employment rights are. There are ongoing questions from schools regarding the matter of supervision and school transport.

1104.

We have also had complaints from rural schools, particularly from areas such as Plumbridge, County Tyrone, where the school feels that it is being penalised by the present regulations for free "home to school" travel by buses.

1105.

The situation has also arisen where schools have felt that other schools were impinging on their territory by putting on private buses, and that can disrupt school enrolments and threaten school viability. We receive a panorama of views on a one-to-one basis about home-to- school transport. Queries are not always written; they can come in the form of telephone questions about school transport in many shades and varieties.

1106.

Mrs Carson: Have you had problems of over- crowding, safety, or related issues referred to you? Have you got specific problems? If so, how do you deal with them?

1107.

Mr Mullan: Specific problems come and go through the local CCMS officer who is in touch with principals and the board of governors. We have never encountered a formal deputation of principals saying "this is an intolerable situation". What has emerged is that this situation has lasted so long, and is so old, that it has just become a part of the wallpaper. Everyone has accepted it; it is a fact of life. It really was a breath of fresh air to receive notice from yourselves - through public advertisements - that a response could be made and that this issue was being looked at, because it had been ignored for so long. Many principals simply accepted it and went ahead with it. They felt that there was no reason for tackling the issue because nothing would be done about it.

1108.

Schools have real problems with Translink regarding the start and finish of the school day. Sometimes the situation arises where Translink actually dictates when a school opens and closes for the day. The tail is wagging the dog, so to speak.

1109.

To return to your question, official deputations have not been received, but as an umbrella body CCMS felt this was such an important issue that we should respond to your invitation.

1110.

Mr Watson: You are both welcome this morning. Thank you for your presentation. In paragraph 9.1(ii) of your submission, you mention greater competition. Will you please elaborate on the benefits you believe that would bring?

1111.

Mr Corr: It was, as the previous contributor indicated, the idea of a number of players in the market, for want of a better term. It is not purely an economic market. However, a number of players would enhance the potential for innovation in those areas where larger operations find it economically difficult to make provision. Also implicit in our suggestion was the consideration that, in purely governmental terms, greater competition would make it easier to move onto one of the other recom- mendations - namely a code of practice - in that everybody would then be signing up to the same terms.

1112.

Your Committee, Mr Watson, is looking at the thing in its totality. Not only should we draw on provisions for education; we should also examine provisions that have been made for school transport and whatever other good ideas exist whether inside the United Kingdom or outside it. To come back to your point, we have looked at other areas where there is a multiplicity of contributors and found that it does enhance the overall service.

1113.

Mr Murphy: When you consider the pressure that the teacher is under, and so on, could you see a place for care workers within primary schools? This would supplement the short hours of work that care workers get.

1114.

Mr Mullan: Thank you, Mr Murphy. Obviously, primary school children are not a similar size, but we do have the problem that they are less structured in the way they sit and concentrate. They are sometimes very young - as young as four years old - so travelling on a bus would require even more supervision, even if we could live with the three-to-two rule for the children of that age.

1115.

It is unfortunate that we have not had the wisdom to apply the seat belt rule. I cannot understand why we do not use seat belts, when school minibuses and cars use them. Let me go back a step, Mr Murphy - I am in favour of safety belts. But if we were to go for the use of safety belts, the difficulty of putting three children to a seat would arise. It probably could not be done without a redesign of the seat. That is the point that I would start from. Young children have their own difficulties particularly at the age of four, five and six and keystage 1, and they do need more supervision.

1116.

As for your second point, I think it is an excellent suggestion. We do know of situations where special education children do receive carer assistance on board buses, and that is essential for them. Classroom assistants in schools have, in many ways, the same authority as a teacher with children, so it would certainly help.

1117.

Some schools have made provision for classroom assistants to travel on the bus in the morning, and they have worked that out with the Education and Library Board, not with Translink. For example, in the Western Education and Library Board, a payment is made to schools through Local Management for Schools (LMS) for care assistants to occupy that role you have suggested.

1118.

Mr Corr: On the point that Mr Mullan has mentioned about the carers on buses, may I add that there are a number of practical considerations which would immediately fall into place if such a suggestion were brought on board universally. One of them is the question of the authority that the carer would have. The carer would be an employee, and the whole duty of care question does not go away - it is always with us.

1119.

As for difficulties in reconciling the three-to- a-seat rule and the use of seat-belts, it has been shown in America that when private transporters have put three to a seat, three seat belts with three buckles were required. In the beginning there were incidents of destruction of the new materials. The degree of vandalism on public transport did not diminish; in fact, it actually increased for a little while at the beginning, so an introductory cost was involved which might not be immediately obvious.

1120.

The other question concerned the bounds of a supervisor's control. The children themselves are the sources of acute, unruly behaviour, and it therefore seems that it does not matter who will be cast in the role of the supervisor - their view will still be the same. That is something that will have to be worked out and costed, but it is certain that supervisory reform would enhance the current arrangements.

1121.

Mr Ford: In your submission you suggested that greater competition would be likely to have the effect of raising standards. The cynic in me suspects that greater competition might drive to cost-cutting exercises and reduced standards. Can you explain how you envisage the generation of that competition?

1122.

You heard some of the previous submission from the private coach operators. Is there a way in which we, without losing the benefits of the Ulster Bus link in most cases, could still get some benefits from additional competition?

1123.

Mr Corr: On that question, we had surmised that in the same sense as control is exercised in public utilities in a macro sense - for instance whenever telecommunications were privatised - that there were niches in the markets and there was a regulator arrangement.

1124.

The school transportation market could be examined by the Committee or someone else involved in the market for those routes which the current operators find uneconomic. There could be a controlled introduction to widening the marketplace, coupled with a more specific approved code of practice. The only code of practice in existence is the Highway Code. The code of practice needs to specifically address the question of school transportation. That would mean that cutting corners or cowboy operations would be minimised, because an approved code of practice would have a regulatory enforcement dimension. We did not foresee opening up the market willy-nilly, but with a degree of regulatory control in the method of introduction to other operators.

1125.

Mr Mullan: There has been a suggestion that because of lack of competition there has been a lengthy delay in addressing the issues that the Committee is now considering. That is originally where we were coming from. If education services in other areas are open to public tender and subject to that strictness then there should not be any difference here. We have almost a monopoly situation with Translink. Like other services it should be openly bid for. If the Education and Library Boards bid for other services, then why should this be any different?

1126.

Mr Corr: On the question of contingency planning, supervising and control we have a wealth of legislation already in place. It is the occupational field which requires the contingency planning. There is a disparate application of risk assessment in the workplace right across the United Kingdom. The bus itself is the driver's workplace and his employer has an obligation to undertake the risk assessment for the workplace. It is not as if we are short on legislation; we just have difficulty in methodology on enforcement, and what is considered to be reasonably practicable in this area. School transportation is still a workplace for the primary operative - the driver.

1127.

Mr Doherty: My point is a general one but I think it lies at the heart of the problem. In your comprehensive opening presentation you used the term 'an ideal world' but in the real world it is obvious that any improvement in school transport arrangements will be very expensive and will have to be funded from a very limited overall education budget. There are questions of priorities here; additional money spent in getting children to and from school safely will mean that there will be less money available for purely educational matters. Is it possible to strike a balance? If so, can you suggest what that balance might be?

1128.

Mr Mullan: I would begin by not having anyone standing on buses. I see students getting on buses outside my doorstep carrying bags, rucksacks and sports gear. I remember as a teacher myself actually weighing what an 11-year-old child had to carry to school, and it came to three to four stone in weight. This has to be put onto the bus as well. The aisles get blocked, the overhead racks get full. Children pull their bags down or put them up and the bags fall and hit someone and tempers get frayed. There is also a lack of supervision and the situation just snowballs from that.

1129.

I know priorities are always difficult, and I assume that this would involve a staged approach. There cannot be one single answer to this, but I would begin by removing those who are standing. I would ultimately work towards seatbelt arrangements for all children and adults who are travelling on public transport. I think the present education and library board provisions are much better than the Translink provisions. Translink could learn a few lessons from the education and library board. Moving towards a uniform system like that currently used by the education and library board would be a valuable step in the right direction.

1130.

Mr Corr: There is an increased package of cost attendant on these recommendations. We fully accept that proposition. I would like to mention two agents of change across the water: the STAG and Kirklees initiatives. They brought the idea of environmental impact into the classroom. We have an absolutely bizarre situation where a number of parents will take their children to school in the car rather than have their children stand at bus stops without coats or headgear. Children are under peer pressure not to wear the overcoat or headgear. This is just a cultural dimension to the whole thing that has a cost to the public sector - it has not been measured but it is significant.

1131.

The Kirklees initiative did inject some money into local community projects to exhort people to look at the school run. The school run is a most uneconomic and inefficient device. It is argued that we have more potentially dangerous routes today than the school run. This is undoubtedly true, but there are also routes, particularly in rural areas, where the practice of walking to school for more than half a mile would now be frowned upon while two decades ago it was considered normal. These cultural dimensions carry attendant costs. The United Kingdom Government has accepted that a properly done, budgeted publicity campaign has clawback potential.

1132.

It is unquestionably a hearts and mind issue. The degree to which we reach parents at large will depend on the degree to which we make cost savings in initiating an approach which will undoubtedly be safer than the current regime.

1133.

Mr Mullan: I find it difficult to reconcile the legislation which has recently been put in place in the UK to regulate the carriage of farm animals with the issues which concern us today. I am not being emotive here, but we have got to get priorities right for our children. That is the aim of the CCMS - the safe carriage of children. I think putting 101 of them on a bus is incredibly out of date, and I am grateful that your Committee is looking at it.

1134.

The Chairperson: You talk about opening school transport up to a competitive market. Is it Translink's tack that the private companies will bid for all the profitable routes leaving it with any thing unprofitable? If it is a level playing field, and if everyone else is able to bid for the rest, do you propose that Translink also enjoy the luxury of bidding only for profitable routes, to lift the numbers? If children are to be taken to school, they have the responsibility to take them, no matter the route they travel. Are these children going to be left behind? What happens to them?

1135.

Mr Mullan: I think it is a matter of how you actually put out the specification to tender; it must be made clear that cherry-picking is not an option.

1136.

The Chairperson: That is happening on other routes, outside of school runs. If a route is well travelled with a lot of passengers, private enterprise will take it. This is what Translink tells me. Translink maintains that everyone will take the full runs and profit, leaving it to take the non-profitable routes. Translink has the overall package, whether there is a handful of people and the bus is mainly empty or whether the bus is full, they have to take it all. Cherry-picking is a sound-bite often heard today, but it does not necessarily follow that people do not do it.

1137.

Mr Mullan: Rural education, in the round, is costing more than urban education per child per capita - we have examined this closely. Sometimes when local rural schools cease to be viable a cry goes up because it is costing too much. It may be that we will have to live with that, because we are a rural community at heart in Northern Ireland. However, one solution would be to fund those rural routes through the education and library boards. Perhaps they could be asked to pick up those routes and deliver a service.

1138.

The Chairperson: In your opinion, what part of the American system should we omit from our considerations?

1139.

Mr Corr: Our focus was on the protocols that had been established with regard to the school bussing - essentially the health and safety protocols. They have a 10 point procedure for embarkation and disembarkation that is universal - a federal norm. We feel that the economic side is of less moment for our purposes.

1140.

The Chairperson: We were told that that would not necessarily work here.

1141.

Mr Corr: The embarkation and the disembarkation protocol follows very closely a good risk assessment out turn, in terms of the safety of the passengers and the pick-up arrangements. That is really what we are referring to in the American model.

1142.

The Chairperson: We also talked about supervisors. Who should pay for this service? Everybody but yourselves, of course. I thought I would mention that before you tell us.

1143.

Mr Corr: As a result of cultural change in transportation - private or public - there has been a public and private cost. When there is a profitable market, contributors to the market will build in safety when they think it is going to be a selling feature. I suggest to the Committee that this is not going to be the case in school transport.

1144.

The anomaly currently exists in the context of cost; in as much as the education service is still a publicly serviced and funded provision. The obligation for parents or guardians to ensure that their children attend school still rests with them. However, where any arm of the public sector provides a school transportation service, it is reasonable to suggest that all of those aspects, including the duty of care, should be borne by them. Whether there is collaboration with one facet of the public sector or more, it would still be coming from public funds.

1145.

The Chairperson: We have heard evidence, even from the last people, that it was the school's responsibility. We have heard other evidence from the teaching profession that it is the carrier's responsibility.

1146.

Mr Corr: On the question of school's respon- sibility, as it currently stands, in terms of its obligation in loco parentis, this actually begins when the child is delivered into the confines of the school curtilage.

1147.

The Chairperson: I can remember when I was at school a young fellow standing outside the school curtilage, and outside the school grounds, smoking a cigarette. The young fellow was brought to the front of the assembly hall.

1148.

We were all told to turn our backs, but we did hear the rubber tubing touching the boy's back end. In those days, the school even had responsibility for what happened outside it.

1149.

Mr Corr: I well recall a parallel situation in my own rearing. When I say inside the school curtilage, obviously there are instances when the supervisory arrangements and the duty of care extends outside, particularly on school trips, or when the school is personally providing transportation to another venue. Therefore, to have it widened universally, would actually go against the present legal arrangements.

1150.

The Chairperson: We had representations from schools, headmasters and now yourselves, and above anything else, you clearly presented the discipline situation. Others certainly did not. You mention the high potential for ill discipline on school transport, but perhaps there is no discipline in the home, and this is why it is leading onto the bus.

1151.

Mr Corr: That is what I meant when I said there was a societal dimension to this issue. Indeed, I suggest that there will be a societal dimension to every issue the Committee will ever deliberate upon. We emphasised conduct because during the training session for bus drivers from the Education and Library Board, they specifically mentioned that it caused them a real problem in trying to exercise a duty of care and still drive the bus safely.

1152.

Mr Mullan: I have one last point for discussion. Who will pay? Currently, because of the regulations regarding free school transport, an increasing number of parents are paying for children to go to the school of their choice. As a council, we firmly believe in parental choice, and wherever the parents want to send their children to school, that is their choice and theirs only. If a parent chooses to send their child to a school beyond the three-mile limit, they pay for that choice.

1153.

The payment goes directly to Translink - I deal with it myself. Though others might disagree, I would not be averse to a small increase in that payment if I was assured of adequate supervision on the bus. It may not all come out of the public purse, because an increasing number of parents are paying for a transport service. I have difficulty with what I am getting for my money at the moment, considering the overcrowding.

Thursday 1 February 2001

Witnesses:
Mr A Rainey )
Mr B McClean ) Education and Library Boards
Ms M Maguire )

1154.

The Chairperson: Good morning and thank you for coming. I believe you have been told what we want to discuss to further our investigations.

1155.

Mr Rainey, what are the actual terms of contract when hiring school buses from Translink? We want to get as much information as possible on this.

1156.

Mr Rainey: I will ask Mr McClean to respond to that.

1157.

Mr McClean: The five boards have reasonably common terms of contract with their private operators. I supplied those terms to Mr Beatty several weeks ago. I will highlight the main provisions.

1158.

The vehicles have to comply with all PSV construction and use regulations. Drivers must have the appropriate PCV category D licence. The operator has to sign release forms to allow us direct access to his insurers. The release forms also give permission for a criminal record check to be carried out to make sure that the nominated driver has no history of child abuse, dangerous driving or drink driving. Those are duly processed. Under normal regulations, minibuses, seating up to 16 passengers, are required to have seatbelts. We expect larger vehicles - those that weigh 7·5 tonnes - to comply with the non-seatbelt regulations, such as travelling within the 60mph limit at all times.

1159.

There are other standard contractual requirements ¾ the vehicles are subject to inspection and they must have a good record of work with the boards. The purchasing department provides a list of potential contractors to the transport department and, if an operator has been de-barred, for any reason, they will outline their reasons why that particular operator can not work for the board.

1160.

The contracts are quite detailed, but we can go through them with the Committee.

1161.

The Chairperson: Are the terms and conditions of your contract with Translink the same as those which you would have with any other private operator?

1162.

Mr Rainey: Yes, it is very important to emphasis that. Translink competes with any other contractor seeking to do business with the board. There is no arrangement whereby the board would enter into a contract with Translink without holding an open competition with other contractors.

1163.

The Chairperson: How much does daily travel on a contract hire bus from Translink, as opposed to the cost on a scheduled stage service? Is there a price difference?

1164.

Mr Rainey: Obviously, there is a wide variation in the costs per pupil between the different contract services, depending on the nature of the route. But we have figures detailing the overall average costs, which Ms Maguire will quote. They come from the Best Value Fundamental Review, which was carried out by the boards last year. There are figures for each board and then overall figures for Northern Ireland.

1165.

Ms Maguire: The review was for the 1998/99 financial year. The cost for private hire public transport ranged from £216 to just over £400, with an average cost of approximately £270 per pupil. That would have compared with a sessional ticket costing about £350 at that time.

1166.

The Chairperson: Would you like to make any other comments before Members ask questions?

1167.

Mr Rainey: I would re-emphasise the point that Translink must compete on equal terms with private operators.

1168.

The Chairperson: What difference do you see between contract hire and the scheduled stage carriage service?

1169.

1170.

Ms Hanna: Are there any provisions within the contract which deal with the "3 for 2" rule and children standing?

1171.

Mr Rainey: We do not provide for children standing in our contractual arrangements. However, we do provide for seating three children to a seat in the case of pupils of primary age.

1172.

Mr A Doherty: Do the contracts that the boards have with Translink specify the number of buses that are on contract at any particular time, or is it a general contract?

1173.

Mr Rainey: As I understand it - and Mr McClean can correct me if I am wrong - there is a contract for each route, which is based on the number of pupils identified as being entitled to travel on that route. The operator - whether Translink or a private operator - is required to provide a sufficient number of buses to accommodate the pupils who are identified as having an entitlement to travel.

1174.

Mr A Doherty: The figures that we have been given by the Department indicate that only 2,500 of the 67,000 children who have bus passes travel on contract services. The chances of a child being on a contract bus are very limited.

1175.

Mr Rainey: The chances are slim. The majority of services are either Ulsterbus stage carriage services or the boards' own vehicle services. The balance between those two varies from board to board. In the Western Area Board, which Mr McClean and I represent, there is a higher degree of yellow bus services - the board's own fleet. We have a higher proportion of services operated by our own yellow buses. This is for historical reasons and for reasons relating to the geography of the area, and also because there are fewer stage carriage services - public services operated by Translink - in the west than in other parts of the Province.

1176.

Mr A Doherty: I was involved in St Mary's High School, Limavady, for 20 years. Ulsterbuses were regularly coming in and out of the school. I assumed - and most people assumed - that they were contract school buses. It seems that this was not the case. Are you happy with that situation?

1177.

Mr Rainey: A number of buses do call at the school and pick up pupils. However, they are formally recognised as being stage carriage services.

1178.

On occasion, some services are diverted to facilitate the pupils and the schools by picking up pupils at the school rather than at the bus depot. It depends on local arrangements. For example, in Omagh, all the pupils are expected to go to the bus depot, where they converge in the afternoon. That has advantages and disadvantages. In some areas, like Limavady, there is an arrangement to pick up pupils at the school instead of asking them to go to a central point.

1179.

Mr A Doherty: Therefore it is correct to view them as ordinary stage buses even though they do not operate in the same way.

1180.

Mr Rainey: They start from the school, but the public can avail of them during the course of the journey.

1181.

Mr McClean: In the case of Limavady, St Mary's High School is well suited to the collection of pupils by buses at the school. That is advantageous for the school, because it enables the school to ensure that buses are boarded in an orderly fashion. However, that is not possible at Limavady High School, which is situated next door. Its pupils must board buses from the street.

1182.

It may be perceived that these additional buses are contracted. In reality, Ulsterbus has a time-tabled service. For example, a service might depart from Foyle Street at 8.00am and arrives in Limavady at 9.00am. We identify such a service as a sessional-ticket service. But during term-time, Ulsterbus realises that that bus will need to be assisted by an additional 11 buses to transport all the children. They are all sessional- ticket services. Each bus driver has a ticket register, therefore, a member of the public can get on those buses if they are brave enough to withstand the noise, because they can offer fares. The additional buses are not contracted. They are there to assist the service.

1183.

Ulsterbus operates along some other routes during term time only, for example, the Fivemiletown service to Omagh via Augher and Clougher. A member of the travelling public can take that route because it uses public-service vehicles. However, they are withdrawn during the school holidays.

1184.

Mr Poots: I am going to discuss a different matter, but first I want to pursue this subject which Mr A Doherty raised. Is it correct that the contract states that children are not meant to stand for longer than 15 minutes?

1185.

Mr McClean: That is part of Ulsterbus' citizen's charter. Its publicly stated objective is that children should not stand for longer than 15 minutes during peak-time operations, and that no one should have to stand during the rest of the day.

1186.

Mr Poots: However, that is happening. Is it correct that contracted services differ in some regards from scheduled services?

1187.

Mr Rainey: With regard to contracted services operated by Ulsterbus, it is our expectation that children should not stand at all.

1188.

Mr Poots: This Committee was working under the misapprehension that the majority of children travelling to school were doing so on contracted buses. In truth, only 4% do so.

1189.

Are you satisfied by the service provided by education and library board buses?

1190.

Mr Rainey: As representatives of the boards we believe that we provide a high standard of service. Furthermore, we believe that the majority of parents value the quality of service that yellow buses provide for their children. In many cases yellow buses are more convenient for pupils, because they tend to use minor roads more often than scheduled Ulsterbus services which usually stick to main roads. Pupils using the yellow-bus routes are often facilitated closer to their homes.

1191.

Mr Poots: The Department of the Environment informed the Committee that an inspection of 178 buses was conducted in February 2000. Thirty-seven of them were found to be in breach of the law and nine were prohibited from further use. I will put the details on record: vehicles with defects, 18; vehicles with no road service licence, 6; vehicles with no PSV test certificate, 6; vehicles with no PSV driving licence, 2; vehicles with no excise duty, 4; and other offences, including failure to display school signs, 26.

1192.

I do not believe we should be asking our children to use such an unacceptable standard of transport. What steps have been taken, since February 2000, to ensure that the vehicles meet the required standard?

1193.

Mr Rainey: Do these figures relate to contract service buses?

1194.

Mr Poots: They refer to the education and library boards' buses.

1195.

Mr McClean: The Department of the Environment prohibits a Public Services Vehicle by serving a V27(a). This happens very rarely. For example, not one has been served in the Western Area Board in the last 12 years. I do not think we have ever received one. Defects can include minor problems, such as a torn seat. In such a case, the PSV Centre would normally request that the vehicle is presented within a fixed number of days with the minor defect repaired.

1196.

But I meet every month with my fellow transport officers, and I am not convinced that the figures you quoted relate solely to school buses or education and library board yellow-and-white buses. It would be a matter of great concern to us if that were the case.

1197.

Mr Poots: I can only read the information I have received from the Department of the Environment's Road Service Enforcement Operation's review of school buses, which was carried out in February 2000. I have to point out that having a torn seat is slightly different from having no Road Service licence or no PSV licence.

1198.

Mr McClean: The boards do not operate their vehicles under a Road Service licence. We operate our vehicles under the Large and Small Bus Permit Scheme. It concerns me, therefore, that you are referring to the Roads Service Operators Licence. The boards operate under the Large Private Bus Regulations.

1199.

Mr Poots: It may be useful to put our information in writing to the boards, and allow for a written response based on those facts.

1200.

Mr Rainey: We will happily provide a written response to the point raised by Mr Poots. In the Fundamental Best Value Review, a reference is made to the DOE report which deals with independent operators transporting children to and from school, and the percentage of vehicles found to be operating with defects. Those operators are private contractors, rather than yellow buses, for which the boards are directly responsible. We will carefully examine the report that you are referring to and we will provide a better written response to that.

1201.

The Chairperson: Surely, it is the boards who have the ultimate responsibility for the safe transport of school children, whether with a private operator or Translink.

1202.

Mr Rainey: The boards have a responsibility to do everything possible to make contractual arrangements with private operators which ensure the safety of children.

1203.

Mr McClean: I can only comment on what happens in my board because I am not familiar with the situation in others. Before the Western Area Board awards a contract, the bus is brought in and given a full mechanical inspection at our vehicle maintenance base. If the bus is found to have just a few minor defects, the operator is told to present the vehicle again within a certain period of time. However, if the engineers find an operator to possess a cavalier attitude towards the maintenance of that vehicle, then a contract will not be awarded. The operator will be told to clean up its act before applying for such a contract with us again. We carry out random spot checks on those vehicles which are under a three-year contract. A period of 12 hours notice is given before the vehicle must be brought in for a full PSV-style inspection.

1204.

For approximately eight years now, we have been happy that we have a core of fairly competent, private operators who know the standards we require. We are conscious of our duty of care to award contracts to decent operators only.

1205.

1206.

You spoke about the flexibility that Translink can provide. I am certain that safety is also a consideration, although we may need to review how it is prioritised. Obviously, there are other factors such as costs, different operational conditions, insurance, et cetera. Are there criteria available to the Committee which would enable us to discover why only 4% of children use contract buses? I am thinking of stage service buses, of members of the public who - to quote you - decide to "take the risk", which would create a consequent loss of control over the conditions, safety and otherwise, for all concerned if the normal complement of schoolchildren uses a bus. At times buses can be very heavily subscribed, but if a member of the public avails of his or her right to board a bus, then safety control could be affected, particularly if people occupy seats which would otherwise be available to school- children. It must be said that issues such as standing time go by the board. Could we have the information as to how the situation arises that 96% of the school transport is provided by Translink outside the terms of safety, regulation and insurance which give some minimum safety to schoolchildren? There seems to have been a significant departure, over a period of time, from what was originally intended. Clearly, the question of safety has not been given priority.

1207.

Mr Rainey: It is fair to say that, where a scheduled service exists, the normal arrangement would be for pupils to travel on that service. Where a service does not exist, or where - for one reason or another - it appears that the costs of a scheduled service are unduly high, there would then be occasion for the Board to make arrangements for contract hire. Mr McClean is involved in the detailed arrangements of making such provision.

1208.

1209.

In some areas the boards have had to establish services and the Department of Education issued a guideline stating that, where there are a significant number of pupils, the boards should consider establishing a service. They set a cut-off number of 20, however the boards are not pedantic so, if there are 16 pupils, a minibus is provided. However, the two new education sectors of Irish-medium and integrated schools, which are situated outside towns, have resulted in a growth in the number of private operators.

1210.

Another growing sector is the hire of vehicles for special-needs children. Nowadays, the trend is to place as many of these children as possible into mainstream schools. However, we still have to provide services to special schools. In Fermanagh, there are two schools sited down the road from Portora Royal Grammar School, and they serve the needs of the whole county.

1211.

All of my special needs buses are directed to that area. If a child decides to go to a mainstream school, or is directed there by the Department of Education, that child will normally travel by taxi - and that is where the growth of private sector involvement has been.

1212.

The perception is that Ulsterbus is carrying 101 children at a time. It has been repeated so many times that people actually believe there are 101 children on every Ulsterbus vehicle. That is far from being the case. No Ulsterbus driver would allow 101 pupils on a bus.

1213.

The Chairperson: With the greatest respect, that is not the evidence we have been given. We have been told that there were actually 102 children on a bus on one occasion.

1214.

Mr McClean: It would be a rare occasion.

1215.

The Chairperson: An accident could happen on one of those rare occasions. Is the number of children allowed on buses acceptable, irrespective of whether it is Ulsterbus or private hire? I am not highlighting Ulsterbus in particular; I believe that we have to ascertain whether it is safe for that number of children to travel on a bus - fifty-three seats containing up to 101 children.

1216.

Mr McClean: The agreement with the boards is that Ulsterbus will carry 53 children seated and 22 standing. That is in line with the "3 for 2" rule at peak times, more or less.

1217.

The Chairperson: We have to ask ourselves if it is safe for children to be standing on a bus. It may be thought of as being safe - until an accident happens. People would then say that a totally unsafe situation was allowed to take place.

1218.

Mr Rainey: It is an issue that needs to be addressed. The boards have indicated, in their initial submissions to the Committee, that they would welcome any measures that would lead to a more comfortable journey for pupils, and any steps that would be seen to be promoting increased safety.

1219.

At the same time, we have drawn attention to the costs that would be involved in improving loading levels. Those factors have to be taken into account.

1220.

Mr McLaughlin: Mr McClean's statement would appear to constitute an argument for an increase in contract hire. The fact that some of these schools are off the beaten track would seemingly provide an extra demand for specialised contract services. However, that does not seem to have been the case.

1221.

Mr Rainey: That was what Mr McClean was saying.

1222.

Mr McClean: That was what we did. We had to provide for that.

1223.

Mr McLaughlin: So, despite that increase, we still only end up with 4%?

1224.

Mr Rainey: Yes.

1225.

Mr McClean: Ulsterbus provides very good coverage of all of the mainline routes.

1226.

Mr McLaughlin: That is fine, however the question of safety comes screaming at you in those circumstances. If it were the case that the percentage were actually lower in previous years, 4% would represent an increase.

1227.

Mrs Carson: This is your second time before the Committee because we did not feel as if we were adequately informed of the situation. Is there anything else that the Committee should be aware of?

1228.

Mr Rainey: We were asked about the merits of the boards' services by comparison to contract or scheduled services. One of the advantages of contract and board services is that those pupils who are not entitled to travel on the bus because they live near the school can be accommodated on the bus, if there are seats available. That service is particularly beneficial in rural areas, and is not provided by the scheduled stage- carriage services. Each pupil who travels on a stage- carriage service costs the price of a sessional ticket, therefore, only those who are entitled to transport according to the regulations can be accommodated and funded.

1229.

That restriction does not apply to concessionary seats. These can be made available. If there were a reduction in loading, the numbers of pupils who could be transported on a concessionary basis would be reduced ¾ that is an important point. Subsequently that would impact on the numbers of cars on the road because many parents, whose children are currently accommodated on concessionary seats, would have to make alternative arrangements for the school journey.

1230.

Mr McClean: That would predominantly apply to primary school children because the boards operate mainly in rural areas and, therefore, minor roads when serving primary schools. If the regulations were changed to allow only one child per seat, a significant number of pupils would no longer be transported by the boards.

1231.

Mr Rainey: That would the case, particularly in the Western Area Board, in which there are more concessionary seats in operation than in the rest of the country.

1232.

Mr McClean: The Western Area Board has the biggest fleet, therefore, the availability is greater.

1233.

Ms Maguire: Mr Poots commented on private operators. That is an area of growth, which is partly attributable to the lack of capital resources given to boards to replace their existing fleets.

1234.

Mr McClean emphasised the fact that we have more control over the standard of our fleet but we are not keeping pace with the replacement programme. There is something in the region of a £10 million backlog in Northern Ireland for the replacement of board-owned vehicles. In the Best Value Review, the board-owned vehicles received a favourable response from parents and schools et cetera. Drivers are familiar with their regular routes. This, combined with the safety factor, the close proximity to home and the concessionary seats, makes the boards' transport more appealing to parents. However, the boards are not in a position to maximise on that at present due to the lack of capital funding.

1235.

Mr Murphy: Will you clarify what a concessionary seat is?

1236.

Mr Rainey: A concessionary seat is one that is still vacant after all the pupils with entitlement have been accommodated. That seat can be made available to a primary school pupil who, for example, lives within two miles of the school and who is not entitled to transport assistance.

1237.

Mr M Murphy: How does a parent arrange to get a concessionary seat for a child?

1238.

Mr McClean: Parents normally make an application for primary school transport, and anyone who is not entitled will be notified immediately and told that their application will be held until mid-September. We then notify the entitled pupils by letter. On some routes we can tell a parent immediately if there is any flexibility, but on others if it is doubtful whether their children will get a seat. We then inform them in mid September that they have been given a free concessionary seat on the Board bus. However, that seat is only available until an entitled pupil comes along. If this happens, we have to withdraw the concessionary seat, but this is not very often the case.

1239.

Mr Ford: The question of concessionary seats is baffling me. If a yellow board bus pulls into the average primary school in the Western Board area, with 24 children on board, on average how many pupils will have a concessionary seats?

1240.

Mr McClean: We convey approximately 16,000 children every day in our vehicles and 3,500 to 4,000 of those are concessionaries. If the rules were introduced, a significant proportion of them would lose their seat.

1241.

Mr Ford: You said if we took steps to reduce the numbers on buses, concessionary seats would be lost. This, clearly, does not apply to board transport because you operate a "one-for-one" seat rule anyway.

1242.

Mr Ramsey: No, we operate the "3 for 2" seat rule for primary pupils on our buses.

1243.

Mr Ford: A reduction of the number of pupils standing would not affect that. Are you operating the "3 for 2" rule in relation to primary schools only, or are you applying it to pupils below the age of 14, in accordance with the law, as I understand it?

1244.

Mr McClean: We are applying it to pupils aged 14 under, but it is operating predominantly in primary schools. On our older 33-seaters there are no seat belts or safety seating so we allocate a maximum of 48 primary school children to travel on it. Some parents of children who are entitled to travel on the bus do not make use of it, they use it as a lifeboat only. There could be 8% to 9% absenteeism in a day. We are not saying that 48 children travel on that bus every day, but 48 primary school pupils could be allocated to a 33-seater. I must emphasise the word "allocated" - they do not always travel on it.

1245.

Mr Ford: Would you allocate year eight and year nine pupils travelling to a post-primary school on a "3 for 2" basis or on a single-seat basis?

1246.

Mr McClean: We allocate them on a "3 for 2" basis.

1247.

Mr Ford: Therefore, although you said the "3 for 2" rule is applied to primary school children only, you meant up to the legal limit?

1248.

Mr McClean: Predominantly the concessionary seats tend to be in primary schools because we have a large fleet of 33-seaters - over 130 - and they work on a network of small rural schools. Therefore, it tends to be aimed at primary schools.

1249.

Mr Ford: By the same token that could apply to private contract-hire full size buses.

1250.

Mr McClean: Yes.

1251.

Ms Maguire: At the last meeting I left a Best Value report in which there is a comprehensive section on concessionary seats which shows where they are available.

1252.

Mr Ford: You referred to the checks that you carry out on private operators. I was distinctly reassured by that, given the stories that we have heard. Am I right in assuming that you do not feel that these checks are necessary for Translink? Does that also apply to private contractors who might be used by schools for one-off day outings? Is there a board list of approved people, or could the principal of a school unwittingly book an operator which you had turned down for regular contract?

1253.

Mr McClean: In our board, in common with all boards, we have standard advice to principals to the effect that, if they are unsure of an operator, they can telephone myself or the DOE licensing in Corporation Street. The principal, or any other teacher who books a bus, must make sure that he checks all the operator's certification.

1254.

If I knew of a rogue operator in an area - and we all have unlicensed people - I would advise the school directly by telephone to avoid using that operator. There is standard advice for all schools, which sets out what they should do if they intend to hire a private operator. An operator's insurance and registration must be checked - if schools are unsure they can check with education and library boards or the Department of the Environment.

1255.

The Chairperson: I would like to clarify something. Only 4% of children are on contract, but only those contract buses provided by Translink have to comply with the regulations regarding display of signs and the use of hazard warning lights. You are saying, then, that only 4% of children are protected under the regulations. The regulations do not have to cover scheduled services, therefore, 96% of children who are allowed to travel on scheduled services are not protected.

1256.

Mr McClean: That is correct. Those regulations do not apply to scheduled services.

1257.

The Chairperson: Are you satisfied, therefore, that limited safety should be provided for 4%, and withdrawn from the remaining 96%?

1258.

Mr Rainey: The boards take the view that scheduled services operated by Translink are expected to operate safely, and with proper inbuilt safeguards. I am sure the Translink representatives will wish to speak for themselves on that matter.

1259.

The Chairperson: If the regulations are meaningless, why are they in place for contract hire? If it is a matter of flannel, leave out the flannel. The regulations have a purpose - safety. The display of signs and the use of hazard warning lights about which you talk are safety measures.

1260.

Mr Rainey: Those regulations are intended to control the small, private operators and to regulate the way in which they operate their services. If Translink wins the contract for a contractual service, its standards are expected to be as high as usual. The safeguards for contracts are intended to protect everybody against unscrupulous, small, private operators who may not work to the same standards.

1261.

The Chairperson: That is not good enough. Contract buses provided by Translink have to comply with the regulations on the display of signs and the use of hazard warning lights. Translink is not the small, private rogue operator.

1262.

Mr Rainey: Both Translink and private operators have to comply with the regulations.

1263.

The Chairperson: This Committee has received evidence to the effect that more signage is necessary. There also needs to be greater use of hazard warning lights, not only at the bottom of the vehicle near the road, but on other prominent parts of the bus. This is important for safety. There must be something wrong with the regulations. These limited safety measures have been awarded to only 4% of children travelling on these buses; 96% do not have this protection. That issue has not previously been raised with this Committee.

1264.

Mr McClean: It is important to understand why the legislation was so framed. One of the reasons is that the transport service in Northern Ireland is unique. There is a common livery of school buses in Northern Ireland. Anyone who sees a yellow and white bus will know that it is a school bus. All Ulsterbuses are painted the same colour. We all know that during term time Ulsterbuses and City buses are packed with school- children.

1265.

However, people are not aware of the private operators which come in a range of liveries. Ulsterbus happened to fall into that category when they won a contract. When I see the local operator in Fermanagh with his old red and white Duple, I would not know if he was on a stage-carriage or a school service. Those signs are permitted on buses, only when they are being driven to and from school so that motorists can identify them as school buses, along with the blue-and-white and yellow-and-white buses.

1266.

In England, this was more important because there is no common livery. The legislation was framed to suit the unique situation in Northern Ireland. Our opinions of the legislation were sought, and the yellow-and-white bus was excluded because it was known as a school bus. Unfortunately, as Translink has a contract, it has to comply with the private-operator regulations.

1267.

The Chairperson: Members can look over the evidence and decipher it for themselves. We should find out why the regulations were introduced, if they are not for the safety of the majority of children travelling to school. I am not sure if that would stand up under scrutiny.

1268.

Thank you very much.

Witnesses:
Mr A Watt ) Translink
Mr D Cowan )

1269.

The Chairperson: Welcome to the Committee. Your attendance is appreciated. You have heard the previous witnesses' answers. It will be interesting to hear if you concur with them.

1270.

Mr Watt: Thank you, Chairperson. I should like to apologise on behalf Mr Heskeith, who cannot attend today.

1271.

The Chairperson: I understand. Mr Heskeith was prepared to cancel his trip in order to attend today, but I am quite happy that you are more than competent to answer the Committee's questions. Have you any comment to make on what you have heard so far?

1272.

Mr Watt: I would like to comment on "school bus" signs, the last matter under discussion. Mr McClean described the background to the introduction of "school bus" signs. My understanding is that this was due to legislation which was introduced in Great Britain since the school bus system is slightly different there. Very few children are carried on scheduled timetable services in Great Britain, most are carried on contract hire by a range of operators. The signs were to help identify a school bus carrying school children.

1273.

We were consulted when the regulations were introduced in Great Britain, and this posed no problem for us - we saw it as a benefit. In Northern Ireland, as the Committee has heard, there has been an increase in the number of contract services, not just by Translink but by many other private operators. That is the main reason the introduction of signs here.

1274.

The Chairperson: Perhaps you can help the Committee. Who decides whether it is a contract bus or a scheduled service one? Does Translink have an input into the decision, or is it left to the boards with your having to fulfil the obligations laid upon you?

1275.

Mr Watt: It is completely left to the boards. I know that Mr Cowan has the scheduled timetable, which includes all the journeys that Translink, Citybus and Ulsterbus operate. The boards have those timetables and are therefore aware of the services we operate. I was based up in the north west for some time, and Oakgrove Integrated College opened up in Gransha. It is a prime example of where there are private operations it is not on the dedicated timetable of bus services. Journeys to and from that school had to be provided by contract services, some run by us and some by private operators. They are tendered by the boards. We put in our price and we do not always win.

1276.

Ms Hanna: Following the discussion about the limited number of buses that have the school sign and the warning lights, do you feel it would be beneficial if other buses carrying children had that? Does it make any difference?

1277.

Mr Watt: It may be confusing to the fare paying passenger. Despite Mr McClean's comments, we do have quite a number of fare paying members of the general public travelling on scheduled services, on which there are significant numbers of school children.

1278.

Ms Hanna: I was thinking from a safety perspective in view of the large number of children on the buses.

1279.

Mr Watt: Let us look at how transport is organised in the United States. When a school bus stops, the traffic in both directions is supposed to halt. I believe something along those lines should be introduced. We know that there are very few injuries - and certainly in my 33 years there have been no deaths - on board an Ulsterbus or Citybus. Unfortunately, there has been a small number of deaths of school children who left the vehicle, going either across, in front or behind, only to be struck by oncoming vehicles.

1280.

Mr Hanna: However, it would obviously need a specific sign on it saying it was a school bus to have traffic stopping for it.

1281.

Mr Watt: It should be down to common sense. A bus carries a large number of people at any time, whether it is a school journey, factory journey or a day service with a load of pensioners. That is why I believe, on safety grounds, that there should be some arrangement where caution is exerted -[Interruption]

1282.

Ms Hanna: For all buses?

1283.

Mr Watt: Yes. For all buses.

1284.

Mr McLaughlin: I am interested in the criteria determining whether it is contract or scheduled service. Can you help me establish what the variables are? What informs your decision about whether a scheduled service would meet the requirements of efficiency, safety and cost? Is it primarily a matter of cost? Are insurance considerations a factor? Is the fuel duty rebate a factor in the decision? If , for example, the Committee were to approach the issue of amending the legislation, to set down certain common conditions that would be legislatively enforced, would it deal with the 4% proportion of vehicles on contract hire with the rest made up mainly of scheduled service provision and dedicated education and library board transport? What is it that decides for you as an operator?

1285.

Mr Watt: It is really not our decision. It is the decision of the education and library boards, the school or whomever puts out the initial tender.

1286.

Mr McLaughlin: You have no interest. It is really a matter for those hiring to decide what type of vehicle and conditions they want.

1287.

Mr Watt: As Mr McClean said earlier, we must abide by the same rules and regulations as all private operators contracted by the boards. Basically, they put out a tender for a certain workload, usually over three years. Like the private operators, we decide whether we wish to tender for some or all of it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with our timetable services.

1288.

Usually when we win a contract for a school or education and library board it requires extra resources from Translink - an additional bus and an additional driver. In some cases, where we can fit it in with other work, it does not. A substantial number of vehicles is required to carry children to Oakgrove Integrated College. We did not have vehicles in the area at the time, so we had to bring additional vehicles into the fleet at the Pennyburn depot. We also had to employ some additional drivers to fulfil the contracts we had won. The other contracts were won by private operators in County Derry and Donegal.

1289.

Mr McLaughlin: If there were a derogation of those safety regulations, it might not be specified in the contract papers to which you respond. Such a decision would be taken, for example, by the boards.

1290.

Mr Watt: The boards are in total control. They issue the tender documents, and it is up to us to decide if we can meet their requirements.

1291.

Mr McLaughlin: When a contract is awarded, must you adapt the buses you supply to meet the conditions specified by the board?

1292.

Mr Watt: We must provide the "school bus" sign, and on special-care contracts we must provide wheelchair access.

1293.

Mr Watson: We have been told that, when additional buses are put on to cope with the school run, they are put on as stage-carriage services. Under the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1999, schedule 18, at least half of the accommodation on these vehicles should normally be available to the general public. Is that happening in practice, and is it timetabled for public information?

1294.

Mr Watt: It is indeed. Mr McClean or Mr Rainey referred to a school in Limavady where 11 additional buses are put on. Those buses would all be advertised in the timetable. Some are run at the same time as the existing timetable service and are required to offer carriage to any fare-paying passenger. They take adults travelling to and from work, and also children who are not entitled to free travel. Such children live within two miles of a primary school or three miles of a secondary school.

1295.

Mr Cowan: Each district produces its own school timetable, listing the pick-up points and times for each school. That is issued to the public on request. We can leave some examples with you.

1296.

The Chairperson: But these are not on your schedule of services.

1297.

Mr Cowan: No. In every depot there are also school timetables giving the details of pick-up points, times and destinations. Those are published as separate timetables and are available to the public, thus meeting the requirements of the regulations.

1298.

Mr Watt: It is a requirement of our licence from the Department that we list any additional services. Those can change from year to year - or even during a year - depending on the loads in particular districts. We are required to provide the information in each case.

1299.

Mr Watson: However, they are not in your scheduled timetables available to ordinary members of the public.

1300.

Mr Watt: No, but they are available to the public.

1301.

Mr Watson: They are in the depot, but they are not in the ordinary published timetables.

1302.

The Chairperson: They are not. I have the Limavady timetable in front of me.

1303.

Mr Watt: They are a supplement. I am not sure of the times in that area - things have changed since I left it five years ago - but I believe Mr McClean referred to an 8 o'clock bus leaving Foyle Street and arriving in Limavady at 9 o'clock. There is a bus at that time, but there could be nine or 10. Some might leave Eglinton, Strathfoyle, and various places along the route, to assist that service and accommodate the numbers. There are a similar number of buses coming into the Maiden City for the Derry schools.

1304.

Mr Watson: Chairman, are we satisfied that sufficient spaces are being reserved for the general public, in accordance with the regulations, on the additional 11 buses going into Limavady, or are only children being carried, without seats being reserved for the public?

1305.

Mr Watt: We do not reserve seats for anyone.

1306.

Mr Watson: I am not necessarily suggesting that you reserve them, but they should be made available.

1307.

Mr Watt: They are available for fare-paying passengers, as well as the sessional ticket holder. I have no problem with that.

1308.

Mr Cowan: Another example is the route from Banbridge to Newry, on which service 38 operates at around 8.00am. That is a scheduled service, which operates 52 weeks a year. However, during term time, the service will be augmented by an additional four or five buses due to the additional children travelling.

1309.

Mr Poots: In response to the previous question, you told us that the buses can carry a maximum of 75 passengers. Under the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1999, at least half of the seats on a scheduled bus service must be made available to members of the public rather than school children whose bus fares are paid for them. Therefore, of the 75 passengers on the bus, you can only take 37 children with passes.

1310.

Mr Watt: I am not aware of that regulation.

1311.

Mr Poots: Schedule 18 of the Construction and Use Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1999 states: "at least half of the accommodation on these vehicles should normally be available to the general public."

1312.

You normally carry up to 75 passengers. Therefore, you are allowed to carry a maximum of 37 children who have bus passes. Is that how the system is actually operates?

1313.

Mr Cowan: No seats are allocated to any passengers on a scheduled service. That is fundamental to the operation of the service. One does not have a contract stating who will be travelling and that specific seats should be allocated for passengers getting on at different pick-up points.

1314.

Mr Poots: You are bringing in extra buses to cope with the school season. These are brought in, not under contract, but as scheduled stage services. Therefore, you will be allocating one scheduled stage service bus to every 37 children be receiving bus passes from the boards. The other half of the seats should be left free for the general public. Is that happening, in practice?

1315.

Mr Cowan: We do not allocate seats to anyone on a scheduled service.

1316.

Mr Watt: Mr Poots, I am not aware of the source of your information.

1317.

Mr Poots: I have already read out schedule 18 of the 1999 regulations, which states that: "at least half of the accommodation on these vehicles should normally be available to the general public."

1318.

Therefore, less than half of the seats should be made available to children with bus passes.

1319.

Mr Cowan: In reality, if half of every bus leaving Banbridge for Newry every morning were filled with fare-paying members of the public, there would be no transport cost problems in Northern Ireland.

1320.

The Chairperson: It might be helpful if I quoted from the 1999 regulations.

1321.

Mr Cowan: I am aware of them. (See addendum)

1322.

The Chairperson: Are you aware of Schedule 18?

1323.

Mr Cowan: Yes.

1324.

The Chairperson: Schedule 18, sub-paragraph 2(i) 1 states: "at least half of the accommodation on the vehicles, by means of which the service is provided, is normally available to members of the general public and the service is regularly used by such members."

1325.

Mr Watt: But we do not exclude any member of the general public. We do not allocate seats, or designate one half of the bus to fare-paying passengers. We accommodate all fare-paying passengers who present themselves at the vehicle. However, it would be ludicrous to keep half of a bus empty, filling one half with school children and leaving other children behind.

1326.

Mr Poots: It may be ludicrous, but it is the law. According to the regulations, half of the places available on that bus should be allocated to the general public. I asked the simple question of whether each bus was allocated to 37 children or fewer, with bus passes, leaving the other half of the bus free for the general public. The answer I received was that this is not the case.

1327.

Mr Watt: We accommodate all fare-paying passengers who present themselves for travel. If that means that an additional vehicle must be put in service, we do that. That is illustrated by the Limavady example, where there were 11 additional vehicles in operation.

1328.

1329.

Mr Watt: I do not believe the regulations were designed to have buses travelling along the road half empty because fare-paying passengers from the general public do not wish to travel.

1330.

Mr Poots: Thirty-seven is not half empty, for with that figure most seats are filled, and if any members of the general public get on, one has a fairly full bus. Do you ever use "school bus" signs on buses which are supposed to be scheduled services?

1331.

Mr Watt: No. We use them only on the contracted services. We have 75 such services around the Province.

1332.

Mr Poots: That is only 4% of your services, so only 4% have "school bus" signs.

1333.

Mr Watt: We have 1,100 buses on the road in the morning and afternoon peaks, and 75 of those should have "school bus" signs since they are contracted to the school or education and library board.

1334.

Mr Poots: So the figure is 75 out of 1,100. I earlier raised the question of finance in relation to the associated costs. We were originally told that abolishing "3 for 2" would cost £24 million, but that submission has now been revised to £2·4 million.

1335.

Mr Watt: I think that was a typographical error.

1336.

Mr Poots: I was told that I was wrong at the time, and I believe Hansard will bear that out.

1337.

Mr Watt: We accept there was a mistake in the original document.

1338.

Mr Poots: Abolition of standing without changing "3 for 2" was costed at £11·5 million. Is that still the figure?

1339.

Mr Watt: We have had no reason to check these figures, with the exception of the £24 million. The capital costs are essentially connected to new vehicles. We base our figure on the current price of roughly £120,000 per vehicle.

1340.

Mrs Carson: I have been listening carefully, and I am very conscious that it is the second time we have had people here. Are you certain there is nothing that we, as Committee members, are missing which you feel we should know? Have we failed to ask a question, leaving something out? Will you go away from here saying, "We were not asked that, so we did not bother telling them"?

1341.

Mr Watt: A number of points have been made this morning by both the representatives of the education and library boards and ourselves. With his comment on flexibility, Mr Rainey pinpointed one of the key issues in relation to scheduled services. School- children with concessionary tickets who travel on a scheduled service have the opportunity to travel home at whatever time they wish after exams or sports. We even have a facility whereby they can travel to Saturday games on the concessionary ticket. That facility is not available where there are contracted, school-only services. A person travelling on that service must do so when the bus goes in the morning and afternoon.

1342.

Mrs Carson: Is that concessionary fare on a Saturday morning built into your price to the boards? How do you cost that?

1343.

Mr Watt: The tickets are costed on the Monday-to- Friday operation.

1344.

Mrs Carson: So it is an extra.

1345.

Mr Watt: We have a number of services operating on Saturday which we know do not carry too many passengers, so the capacity is there. It is a facility provided to the boards.

1346.

Mrs Carson: Free?

1347.

Mr Watt: Yes.

1348.

Mr M Murphy: I have a point on scheduled bus routes. Might it not be better if you went to the education and library board and told it that a certain number of your bus services should be on contract?

1349.

Mr Watt: We meet regularly every three months with the transport officers to whom Mr McClean referred from the five boards to discuss various problems concerning transport provision. We make the board aware that there is a need for an additional vehicle, and the board decides whether it wishes to contract it. Sometimes it does so, while at others it encourages us to put another vehicle on the service as an assistance. There are various ways of doing it. There is no set pattern to the provision of additional vehicles.

1350.

Mr M Murphy: In financial terms, which would be more beneficial?

1351.

Mr Watt: It would depend on the length of journey the vehicle has to cover. We have 75 contracts at present, which range from £70 per week to one that is almost £800 per week.

1352.

The Chairperson: Do contract school buses qualify for the fuel duty relief?

1353.

Mr Watt: No. They do not.

1354.

The Chairperson: Do the carriage services qualify for the fuel duty relief?

1355.

Mr Watt: Stage carriage vehicles do, yes.

1356.

The Chairperson: Those are the questions the members wished to ask. Do you think that the signage and hazard light requirements are included, not for the safety of children or yourselves, but to protect against rogue contractors who may not provide a proper service?

1357.

Mr Watt: Every decision made must have a safety aspect, and there is a safety aspect to this issue. I sit on the Confederation of Passenger Transport Committee in London, which deals with a number of the major operators in Great Britain. I know that requirement is included because there are so many operators. Even a small district, there might be half a dozen different operators of school bus services, all with different liveries. The general public does not have a clue whether a bus is for school or any other kind of service. This was an initiative taken a few years ago to identify better what is a school bus and what is not.

1358.

The Chairperson: Did it surprise you that we received such a voluminous and firm representations from schools, women's institutes, the police and others when it was agreed that these two aspects should be included on all buses? From previous evidence it did not seem to be a major concern.

1359.

Mr Watt: It would not surprise me, for school transport is a very topical subject, and has been for a number of years. We operate under the legislation in Northern Ireland, and currently that legislation only requires us to have signs and hazard lights on contract services.

1360.

The Chairperson: Thank you for your attendance. We appreciate your contribution.

11 October 2000

In 1986 a small number of voluntary organisations along with the DHSS identified the need for an umbrella organisation to facilitate networking and create a single point of contact for voluntary sector childcare bodies. Core funded by the DHSS, a development worker was appointed and the work began to support co-ordinate and develop the voluntary. In 1997 Child Care NI moved its present home, 216 Belmont Road, Belfast and Mary Cunningham took up post as Director. In 1999 a dedicated information post was also created and the organisation became a company limited by guarantee.

Child Care NI aims to provide high level intermediary policy, membership and training services for the voluntary child care sector operating in the areas of training, information and policy.

Child Care NI offers: -

• Children's Services training - free to members
• Information on strategic developments and planning in the childcare field
• A forum for discussion and debate, an opportunity to raise issues of common concern collectively
• An opportunity for small organisation to become more strategically involved
• Prompt access to relevant information
• Responses to consultation documents

We enclose herewith our member's list and previous editions of our magazine.

Child Care NI regards the current legislation permitting 101 children under 14 to travel on a 53-seater bus as blatantly unsafe practice.

Firstly, in relation to the road Traffic (NI) Order, given that the driver has no supervision support, the number of children on the bus would be distracting and general noise levels would also constitute a major distraction making due care and consideration to other road users most difficult.

This makes no allowance for the fact that those children and young people under 14 are generally more active and noisy than a general adult busload and that in terms of capacity the baggage per head will be greater and arguably more cumbersome.

The capacity may also place children at risk getting on and off the bus as they push forward to secure the limited seats or attempt to get off at their stop, increasing the risk of physical injury or distress.

Once aboard the bus the same personal safety issues are a concern given the very limited space and large amounts of baggage, making the risk of physical injury or distress unacceptably high.

It is important to take cognisance of the general supervision ratios outlined in the Children Order's guidelines. A potential ratio of 1:101 is completely unacceptable, particularly given that the 1 adult is employed exclusively to carry out a completely different role, that is driving the bus.

Potentially the opportunities for abuse of groups or individuals are greatly increased in this crowded and unsupervised environment. Anecdotally children have reported incidences of bullying and unwelcome horseplay on buses. This is a source of considerable concern to the children involved and their families.

The consequence of such overloading may also be that children are unwilling to travel to school on the bus and parents need to make alternative arrangements. This increases the numbers of private vehicles on the road, adding to congestion problems and making the roads much less safe for those children and young people who want to walk to school.

A child's rights to education under the Human Rights Act may also be impinged upon when the journey to and from school becomes so fraught. This may impact negatively on his/her performance in school, or may lead to the child or young person being reluctant to go to school.

Child Care NI acknowledges that the legal limit of 101 may not be reached on all occasions. However a limit of that nature sends all the wrong signals to providers of transport and schools alike. It is also reasonable to assume that there are occasions when even that limit (as with all limits) is exceeded. The fact that it is such a ridiculously high figure in the first place means that exceeding it is almost unthinkable in terms of risk.

Children being transported to and from school should receive no less care than they are required by law to receive in private vehicles in terms of sufficient seating and restraint. Each child should have a seat, with sufficient safe storage for all its baggage out of the aisle and each seat should have seat belt i.e. 53 seats for 53 children.

Child Care NI recommends that additional safety measures be put in place to improve the safety of our children as they are being transported to and from school, specifically: -

• Every child travelling on a school bus should have a seat.
• All vehicles transporting children should be fitted with seat belts.
• Seat belts should be regularly checked, be clearly marked, possibly with special lighting and warning signals, auditory and visual.
• No vehicle other than emergency services should be allowed to overtake whilst passengers mount and exit the bus (the delay caused to other road users would be less, if less passengers were on the bus in the first instance).
• Legislation should be amended to ensure that children are afforded the same protection as adults who travel on buses.
• Supervision should be required on school buses, with at least one trained supervisor per bus.
• There is a need to monitor the number of children and young people injured in accidents on school buses.
• There should be legislative restriction on large passenger carrying vehicles in accordance with the above comments

There will of course be practical implications to all of the above but funding must be found. It is likely that the costs of implementing these safety measures will be much lower than the costs for injuries at present to the public purse.

Child Care NI would urge the committee to give primary consideration to the safety and wellbeing of our children and young people.

Child Care NI is unaware of all legislative requirements in terms of insurance cover. Schools to ensure that the children using this form of transport are given adequate insurance cover and should regularly check taxi insurance cover.

11^th October 2000

1.1 This is an officer's response made by The Council for Catholic Maintained Schools, a non departmental public body which is the largest single employer of teachers in Northern Ireland, and acts as an upper tier of management to 527 catholic maintained schools.

1.2 The Council, under Article 142 of The Education Reform ( Northern. Ireland) Order 1989, is charged with , amongst other functions, advising the Department of Education, Education and Library Boards, or any other body on any matters relating to Catholic maintained schools.

1.3 In facilitating access to nursery, special, primary and post primary education The Council advises parents on their statutory entitlements concerning arrangements which are made by Education and Library Boards in making provision for adequate service delivery of school transportation facilities for their children.

1.4 While the Council itself is not a provider of transport for students attending its schools it gives practical assistance to transportation providers (Education & Library Boards' transport personnel) in providing health and safety training for board transport officers.

1.5 The Council also liaises with boards in relation to maintained school holiday arrangements which may impinge on school transport timetabling in facilitating its maintained client group.

2.1 Irrespective of vehicle classification, the transportation of school children generally is undertaken within the constraints of the same primary statute which applies to all road users, regardless of grouping or status, namely The Road Traffic (N.I) Order 1967.

2.2 It is however recognised that there is a higher common law duty of care owed to minors whether they are road users travelling as passengers in a Public Service Vehicle (PSV) , an Education and Library Board operated school bus, or indeed as pedestrians.

2.3 Nonetheless there exist apparent anomalies concerning the differing safety practices applying when children are traveling in a Public Service Vehicle (Translink) as opposed to an Education and Library Board school bus. In the case of the former, passengers are permitted to stand but in the latter they are not. The Council would share Boards' concerns regarding overcrowding which occurs in commercial vehicle provision where passengers are regularly carried in numbers between the standard seventy-three capacity level and the maximum carriage permissible level of one hundred and one persons.

2.4 Passenger number limitation does exist in commercial vehicle service delivery both from a legislative standpoint and from an insurance perspective. However, in reality commercial pressures combined with the absence of a distinction being made between a schoolchild passenger and an adult passenger in terms of carriage capacity, and the problems associated with the enforcement of carriage maxima, in effect mean that overcrowding seems likely to continue in this sector of the service provision.

3.1 Service providers also have a statutory occupational duty of care to their transportation operatives, and in particular drivers, who are directly employed by them. This becomes significant in circumstances where schoolchildren misbehave on buses of whatever classification.

3.2 At present this can place service providers in an invidious position in that in single operator vehicles the driver has a responsibility to him/herself, other road users and the bus's passengers, while being simultaneously required to discharge the safe transportation duty to a schoolchild or schoolchildren who themselves may clearly constitute a hazard to the driver and other passengers on the bus.

3.3 This problem has been examined by a number of non statutory bodies in the United Kingdom including The Association of Transport Coordinating Officers and the Kirklees Community Partnership in West Yorkshire. In addition to a report detailing findings of a survey published by the latter, a video has also been produced with the aim of developing best practice in this area and minimising bad behaviour and vandalism.

3.4 Currently, existing legislation requires employers to undertake formal risk assessment of their activities to ensure adequate protection of their employees and third parties who may be affected by their undertakings. In this respect school transport presently does not have a unified best practice methodology operating across the range of its service delivery methods.

3.5 However these very risk assessment outcomes, (which, to be put properly into effect, may themselves have public expenditure resource implications across the entire service delivery network), will as always, have to be balanced against service provider statutory compliance obligations under criminal law in the same domain.

4.1 This group was set up by the UK Government to tackle the whole problem of school transport in a holistic manner, emphasising the government's commitment in the White Paper A New Deal for Transport: Better for Everyone

In approaching its task the group sub-divided itself into five smaller groups, each looking at a separate aspect of school transport. These were:-

(a) The involvement of parents ,teachers, governors and pupils

(b) The involvement of drivers

(c) The involvement of business

(d) Integrating the decision making of transport and education bodies and;

(e) Encouraging walking , cycling and bus use, including ways of improving school transport provision within the current budget.

4.2 The latter in particular is seen by government as a worthwhile objective within the context of currently very high of traffic congestion and consequent greenhouse gas emission levels to which "the school run" is making a significant contribution.

4.3 In this regard The Council would support initiatives which would have the net effect of contributing to a marked reduction in private transport congestion at its schools which at present give rise to frequent unsafe conditions surrounding those establishments where proper segregation of pedestrian and vehicular traffic is all but impossible due to school site configuration and the school's interface access/egress space with public roads.

4.4 In respect of 4 above the situation in Northern Ireland is somewhat dissimilar to that pertaining in the rest of the U.K. in that there is a virtual monopoly in the public transport service available to those parents of school children who have no option but to use it to enable their attendance at school. Integration of decision making may be somewhat difficult to achieve given that the supply of a general public service route by the principal public carrier is offered solely on the basis of general demand and not school passenger demand, which itself is influenced in the main by demographic considerations.

4.5 STAG also provides guidance and best practice in the development of "School Travel Plans" the purpose of which is to harness the advice assistance and expertise of all those elements within the wider local school community in arriving at a truly integrated approach to the problems associated with getting everyone concerned to and from school safely.

5.1 In the U.K. the whole question of safer school transportation and environmental impact awareness has been addressed directly through the production of a "School Travel Resource Pack" which has been prepared by The Department of the Environment , Transport and the Regions in partnership with The Department of Health and The Department of Education and Employment.

5.2 This pack is available to anyone and the thrust of the message it carries is one of exhortation to all those involved to collaborate in the task of communicating effectively the need to significantly reduce the now considerable adverse health and environmental effects which the widespread "school run" appears to be making.

5.3 The techniques advocated include a transport condition status survey which can be undertaken by individual schools, road safety knowledge incorporation into the curriculum, parental transportation sharing schemes and the development of "school travel plans", (see 4.4 above).

5.4 The pack also provides additional resource information and sample posters together with "how to" leaflets to assist individual schools in addressing the issue in a holistic fashion.

6.1 Council would submit that, in an ideal world, school transportation for schoolchildren would be a dedicated service as is the case in much of the United States of America. Northern Ireland is obviously a much smaller geographical entity but is nonetheless suffering the adverse effects of increased car ownership. Public liability Insurance negligence settlement levels reflect the present perceived risks of driving on our roads. The difference between using a private vehicle to transport a pupil to school and using a public service vehicle is that in the case of the former the cost of insurance is borne directly by the private carrier (parent/guardian/family friend), whereas in the case of the latter, it is borne ultimately by the public purse. In both cases insurance premiums are increasing, in part due to the fact that there is a greater readiness by road users to engage in litigious dispute resolution for relatively minor personal injury accident outcomes.

6.2 It would appear that if the question of adequacy of insurance cover is examined in isolation of the overarching issue of driving courtesy and competence, vehicle roadworthiness and the general condition of the road network , the net effect will be a continuing upward spiral of insurance premium charges, thus failing to address the matter of insurance at its root. Any measure therefore, which would have the effect of reducing the overall insurance burden in both the education and the private sectors would be welcomed by Council.

7.1 The recent one day joint CCMS/ELB Health and Safety Training Seminar for Board Transport Officers highlighted the need for operational systems which fully reflected the incorporation of commonly agreed procedures in relation to the following topics:-

(a) driver authority and control,

(b) emergency/contingency planning,

(c) the carriage of disabled pupils,

(d) the execution of safety audits and risk assessments

(e) overall safety management accountabilities

(f) passenger embarkation and disembarkation protocols

While these issues were examined within the ELB school bus service provision at the recent joint training seminar, it is not known if the same or similar questions have been addressed within the principal private sector service provider in relation to either its dedicated school service or it public service vehicles accommodating school children.

8.1 The existing school transport provision in Northern Ireland currently demonstrates structural and systemic shortcomings which, if they remain unaddressed, could potentially have the effect of making the duty of care obligations placed on those who provide the service (to both provider staff and users alike) difficult to achieve.

8.2 This is manifest in increasingly frequent examples of antisocial behaviour patterns displayed by pupils which, when occurring in the now universal one person operated buses, makes for currently unrealistic passenger management expectations being placed upon drivers within the context of child protection statutory duties and service provider occupational health and safety obligations to their employees

8.3 The service itself, reflecting an increasing trend in state provision, is delivered through both public and private resourcing. This means that in addition to differing service standards pertaining both in terms of carriage capacity and safety management systems, overall management accountability chains and public liability insurance mechanisms are effected through differing organisational norms.

8.4 U.K. Government Departments have addressed the issue of school transportation and its environmental impact by the introduction of awareness raising campaigns and communication networks enhancement, rather that through legislative revision or lesser regulatory interventions.

9.1 CCMS welcomes the opportunity to contribute to the Environment Committee's deliberations on existing school transport provision and would comment as follows:-

(i) In both the short and long terms, it is likely to prove safer and environmentally more sympathetic, were conditions to be created which would make it both economically and organisationally beneficial for all transport providers to deliver school services within universally applied criteria.

(ii) Greater competition in service supply should be introduced as this would be likely to have the effect of raising standards and allow for greater collaboration between the school and the transport provider.

(iii) Collaboration between private and public transport providers in the of uniform application of agreed risk assessment methodologies in relation to the carriage of schoolchildren.

(iv) Existing carriage capacities,(particularly urgent on high demand routes), should be re-examined with a view to the establishment of a seated passenger policy as the norm for all school transport providers.

(v) The introduction of appropriately dedicated health and safety management training for all drivers carrying schoolchildren on their vehicles

(vi) The clear identification to other road users of all vehicles which regularly carry schoolchildren and the establishment of embarkation and disembarkation protocols on main thoroughfares adjacent to schools

(vii) The introduction of cellular communication for all drivers to enable two way communication in the event of an emergency.

(viii) The creation of an Approved Code of Practice under the Road Traffic (N.I) Order 1967 for all school transport vehicles.

(ix) The availability of seatbelts on all forms of transport which may legally carry schoolchildren.

October 2000

1.1 The Department of Education is responsible for policy on home to school transport. Transport services are arranged by the education and library boards and the arrangements are subject to the Department's approval. The Department is concerned to ensure that children travel to and from school in safety. The Department has regard to the advice of the Department of the Environment in relation to the safety of pupils travelling on buses.

2.1 Article 52 of the Education and Libraries (NI) Order 1986, as substituted by Article 23 of the Education (NI) Order 1997, requires education and library boards to make such arrangements as they consider necessary, or as the Department may direct, to facilitate the attendance of pupils at grant-aided schools and certain pupils at institutions of further education. The arrangements made by boards are subject to the approval of the Department.

2.2 The arrangements approved by the Department are set out in Circular No 1996/41 (copy attached at Annex A). Transport assistance for eligible pupils is provided by various means including the issue of sessional tickets for use on public transport, the operation of education and library board vehicles, the hire of buses or taxis and the payment of car allowances.

2.3 The number of pupils in receipt of transport assistance by mode of transport in the current school year is attached at Annex B. Some 58% of pupils travel to school by public transport. Approximately 27% use education and library board vehicles and 4% travel by taxi. Estimated expenditure by each education and library board on transport to schools in 1999/00 is shown in Annex C. In overall terms expenditure has risen by £11m (32%) over the last 4 years.

3.1 To examine the legislation governing the number of school children permitted to travel on buses.

The Department's approved arrangements provide that pupils should be able to travel in safety and reasonable comfort. While boards do operate the "3 for 2" arrangements which permits 3 children under 14 years of age to use a double seat on vehicles other than minibuses, standing passengers are not permitted on board vehicles. All board minibuses are fitted with seatbelts and the 3 for 2 concession does not apply on these vehicles. While in theory boards could carry up to 79 passengers in a 53 seater bus, in practice boards operate a maximum of 70. It is the responsibility of other service providers, e.g. Translink and private operators to ensure that the number of pupils carried does not exceed the legal limits. The Department understands that Translink operates a maximum of 75 passengers.

The Department of Education does not have the expertise to comment on whether existing legislation constitutes safe practice or whether other arrangements should be put in place. Expertise in this area lies with the Department of the Environment (DOE). The Department is concerned to ensure that the numbers of pupils carried on all school transport are within the maximum permitted under DOE legislation.

Travel by bus is a relatively safe form of transport. The Department understands that over the past 4 years there have been no fatalities and 7 serious injuries amongst passengers under 16 years of age on public transport. Over the same period 38 pedestrians and 19 car passengers have been killed, and 523 pedestrians and 262 car passengers seriously injured. Since 1990 there have been no pupil fatalities as a result of collisions involving board vehicles. Four pupils have been killed after alighting from board vehicles and one was killed when a vehicle door was opened accidentally.

Current legislation requires seat belts to be fitted to all minibuses and coaches. Education and library boards do not operate coaches and all board minibuses are fitted with seatbelts. Medium and large buses operated by the boards, and similar vehicles operated by Translink and private operators, are not required to have seatbelts. While boards do not permit standing passengers on their own vehicles, a requirement for seat belts on these vehicles would necessitate the removal of the "three for two" concession which permits three children under the age of 14 years to share a double seat where seat belts are not fitted. This would create a need for more seats and, consequently, additional vehicles. There is also a doubt as to whether it is practicable to fit seat belts to all existing vehicles. If seat belts were to be made compulsory, there would certainly be a need for significant investment in new vehicles and associated running costs. The question of enforcement of wearing seat belts would also have to be addressed.

The implications for Translink vehicles would appear to be much greater given the current position on standing passengers. The Department is unable to quantify the additional investment which would be required, since that would depend on a detailed assessment of any new provisions in relation to the existing fleet, and the need for new vehicles, but Translink can be expected to recoup the costs involved through increased charges to education and library boards for sessional tickets.

All education and library board vehicles are painted yellow and white and are easily identified as school transport. There is a legal requirement that other vehicles, including those on public transport services, carrying school children must display amber pupil signs on the front and rear of their vehicles. However, these do not have a particularly high profile and the Department would support any proposal which helps improve the identification of these vehicles.

This issue would be more appropriate for those with expertise in traffic related issues.

The Department understands that in the USA traffic is forbidden from overtaking school buses whilst stationary. Whilst this has some attractions, there could be other dangers associated with such a proposal. For example, it could lead to increased traffic congestion, particularly around schools. It would be extremely difficult for vehicle drivers to know whether a bus was likely to be parked for some time or would be moving off when passengers had alighted, and could prove difficult to enforce. Additional emphasis on road safety education may be a more suitable way to proceed.

As indicated at 2.1, the content of the legislation is the responsibility of the DOE and it would not be appropriate for the Department to comment on whether it should be changed.

Any change which will reduce the number of passengers which may be carried per vehicle will have implications for expenditure on home to school transport. In relation to education and library board vehicles, a detailed survey would need to be undertaken to determine additional need by volume and seating capacity. If there is a requirement to fit seat belts as well as restrict the passenger capacity, there would be further additional expenditure given that not all existing vehicles could be fitted with belts.

This proposal would also have a major impact on Translink provision and, given that some 58% of pupils travel by public transport, the additional costs in terms of vehicles and running costs would far exceed those for the education and library boards fleet. The additional costs would be passed on to the boards through increases in the sessional ticket rate.

There are no legislative restrictions on the number of passengers that can be carried on Large Passenger Carrying Vehicles owned and operated by the Education and Library Boards. Should such a restriction be introduced?

Boards operate under the Bus Permit Scheme and the Department understands that board vehicles are not subject to the passenger carrying restrictions imposed by the Public Service Vehicles legislation. However, in practice, boards do not permit standing passengers on their vehicles and operate with a maximum capacity of 70 pupils on large buses. The application of the PSV carrying restrictions to board vehicles would ensure consistency of application but would not reduce the number of pupils currently being carried.

It is the responsibility of Translink to ensure that its insurance cover for Ulsterbus and Citybus services meets the minimum legal requirements. The Department understands that education and library boards' fleet insurance policy includes unlimited cover for public liability and personal injury, and a maximum of £5m for damage to property. Boards consider that this cover is adequate to meet the needs of the service.

Education and library boards require taxi operators to have insurance cover which meets the Public Service Vehicles Regulations. The award of contract is subject to provision of details of insurance cover, verification of drivers' licences, vehicle registration and PSV Certificate.

Boards undertake random taxi inspections at schools and any operators who are found not to comply with the terms of the contract would have their contract terminated.

Checks are carried out within the staffing resources which are available. Boards have indicated that out of some 300 checks carried out in the last school year, 4 operators were found to be in breach of contract and had their contracts terminated.

4.1 The Department acknowledges that there is much concern amongst parents and the wider public that children should be able to travel to and from school safely. It would point out, however, that the current safety record of school transport is excellent. Any proposal to reduce the carrying capacity on board and public transport vehicles as well as considering the benefits of enhanced safety, will also require consideration of the substantial additional costs involved.

1. The Department submitted a memorandum to the Committee on 7 February 2000 on the subject of 'Transportation of School Children in Northern Ireland'. This was in response to a request from the Committee for information about the legislative framework for licensing passenger carrying vehicles and operators with particular reference to the transportation of children.

2. The current memorandum expands on and develops aspects of the earlier memorandum and addresses specific points raised in the terms of reference for the Committee's Inquiry and the associated questions which were published on 11 September 2000. This memorandum is set out under the five main headings of the Committee's terms of reference.

3. The example which the Department quoted in paragraph 9 of its February 2000 memorandum was of a 53 seater bus licensed as a public service vehicle which legally may carry up to a maximum of 101 passengers provided all of the seated passengers are children under 14 years of age. This maximum number is calculated on the basis of 3 children under the age of 14 being permitted to share a double seat (although this may not always be practicable) giving a maximum of 79 seated passengers plus an additional maximum of 22 standing passengers. The '3 for 2' arrangement is a provision of the regulations governing public service vehicles and applies only where seat belts are not fitted.

4. It would be highly unlikely for an operator to have more than 79 passengers on a 53 seater bus and usually the numbers would be less.

• Translink operates a policy of limiting the maximum number of passengers to 75 on a ongoing basis and only uses the '3 for 2' arrangement on its scheduled services where, if it did not do so, children would be left by the roadside.
• Education and Library Boards' policy is to prohibit standing but to allow 3 for 2 seating and therefore would theoretically be able to carry a maximum of 79 seated passengers (if all under 14 years of age) on a 53 seater bus.

5. Buses remain a relatively safe form of road transport (see Annex 1) and therefore it is difficult to demonstrate that significant road safety benefits would accrue from changing the regulations which permit '3 for 2' seating or standing on public service vehicles.

6. The provisions relating to the number of passengers carried on buses are contained in the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (NI) 1999 (SR 1999 No 454) and the Public Service Vehicles (Conditions of Fitness, Equipment and Use) Regulations 1995 (SR 1995 No 447) (see Annex 2).

7. The construction and use regulations require that passengers must be carried in such a manner as to ensure that no danger is caused or likely to be caused to a person in or on the vehicle or on the road. This provision applies to all buses - public service vehicles, as well as small and large buses operating under the Bus Permits Scheme (see paras 20-23).

8. In addition, vehicles licensed as public service vehicles are required to comply with provisions specifying the maximum number of seated and standing passengers (see Annex 2).

9. These regulations have the same effect as the equivalent regulations in Great Britain.

10. The regulations governing fitment of seat belts on buses, coaches and minibuses were described in paragraphs 10-12 of the Department's February 2000 memorandum.

11. Where seat belts are fitted the '3 for 2' provision in public service vehicle regulations does not apply.

12. There are different requirements depending on the type of vehicle (see Annex 3 for definitions) as follows:-

(i) New coaches and minibuses - EC directives 96/36 and 96/38 require the fitment of lap belts as a minimum to new passenger carrying vehicles - for new vehicle types manufactured from 1 October 1997 and new vehicles registered from 1 October 1999

(ii) Existing minibuses and coaches (used for organised trips involving children) - in July 1996, in line with equivalent regulations in Great Britain, the Department introduced regulations which require that where a group of 3 or more children (under the age of 16 years) is carried on an organised trip in a minibus or coach, forward facing seats fitted with seat belts must be provided. From 1 September 1997 the regulations applied these requirements to minibuses and to coaches which were registered after 1 October 1990. For coaches registered before 1 October 1990, the regulations applied from 1 September 1998 (to allow for retro fitting of seat belts to older coaches).

These seat belt requirements do not apply to vehicles being used in the provision of scheduled or other bus services on which children travel with other fare paying passengers (whether under the direct control of an adult or as part of the general public). The regulations have been consolidated in Regulation 57 of the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (NI) 1999.

(iii) Buses - the EU directives specifically exempt buses from the fitment of seat belts on the grounds that these vehicles are designed for standing passengers, are mainly used in urban areas which require vehicles to stop frequently and do not travel at speeds as high as other vehicles. The Department continues to monitor all relevant policy and legislative proposals in Europe and Great Britain.

13. The Road Vehicles Lighting (Amendment) Regulations (NI) 1997 introduced provisions from 1 September 1997 which require the display of suitable signs on dedicated school buses and permit the use of hazard warning lights when a school bus is stopped and children are boarding or alighting. These regulations have subsequently been consolidated in the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations (NI) 2000 (SR 2000 No 169).

14. The details as they affect bus operators are as follows:-

Translink buses Buses used on contract services to transport children to school before school commences or from school after school finishes are required to display special signs. These buses are permitted to use hazard warning lights when children are boarding or alighting. Buses providing scheduled services for the general public (stage carriage services) are exempt from the requirement to display special signs.

Private operator buses Buses used for transporting children to and from school before school commences or after school finishes (and not operating as stage carriage services) are required to display special signs. Buses displaying such signs are permitted to use hazard warning lights when children are boarding or alighting.

Education and Library Board buses As these vehicles have a distinctive yellow and white livery and are clearly identified as school buses they are not required to display additional signs. These buses are permitted to use hazard warning lights when children are boarding or alighting.

All operators Signs must be removed when the bus is not being used to carry children to school before school commences or from school after school finishes.

15. There have been a number of requests recently from the Federation of Women's Institutes of Northern Ireland and others for buses transporting children to be allowed to stop in the centre of roads thus preventing following and oncoming traffic from passing the stationary bus.

16. There are no plans to introduce such provisions nor to require that other vehicles may not overtake a stationary school bus. Enforcement of such provisions would be extremely difficult and indeed there is an argument that such provisions could increase dangers to road users, and to children alighting from buses, from drivers attempting to overtake buses while they are moving (eg before they stop or as they are beginning to move off) in an effort to avoid being delayed by having to wait for the bus to load or unload its passengers.

17. The very low numbers of serious casualties on buses, coaches and minibuses historically makes it difficult to demonstrate that significant road safety benefits would accrue from changing the regulations which permit '3 for 2' seating or standing on public service vehicles.

18. Any proposals from the Department for the removal of these regulations would require a Regulatory Impact Assessment to be completed which would include an evaluation of the potential costs and the likely benefits of making the proposed changes.

19. A Regulatory Impact Assessment would take into account, among other things, the potential impact on Translink and Education and Library Boards in terms of additional buses required and associated operating costs to transport the children displaced by the proposed changes. The funds required could be substantial. The Department for Regional Development and Translink as well as the Department of Education and Education and Library Boards would need to advise on the likely financial implications and the Committee might wish to approach the relevant Department for this information.

20. Buses, coaches and minibuses which are not licensed as public service vehicles for use on scheduled services can be operated under the Bus Permits Scheme introduced in 1994. This Scheme applies to operators who are not operating for hire and reward.

21. The Bus Permits Scheme operates at two levels:-

(i) Small bus permits (for vehicles with 16 or fewer passenger seats) - under this non profit organisations (specified in regulations and working in areas such as education, religion etc) can issue permits to groups directly affiliated to them to provide transport on a non profit making basis for their members.

(ii) Large bus permits (for vehicles with over 16 passenger seats) - The Department issues large bus permits to operators such as Education and Library Boards who are non profit making organisations and who are not operating bus services for hire and reward.

22. Buses operating under the Bus Permits Scheme are tested under the Motor Testing Regulations (NI) 1995. These regulations do not place any restrictions on the specific number of passengers which may be carried. Large buses (ie those with more than 16 passenger seats are referred to as 'Large Passenger Carrying Vehicles' in the testing regulations). These vehicles must comply with construction and use regulations (see para 7 and Annex 2) which require them to be operated in a manner to ensure that no danger is caused or is likely to be caused to a person in or on the vehicle or on the road.

23. Enforcement of these provisions can only be carried out while the vehicles are operating on the road by the detection of a vehicle by an enforcement officer (either from the Department or the RUC) in whose judgement the number of passengers carried or the manner of their loading causes a risk to the passengers or other road users. The absence of specific maximum numbers of passengers permitted to be carried on buses operating under the Bus Permits Scheme does not mean that unlimited numbers of passengers can be carried. Operators can be prosecuted for breach of these regulations, consequently the final decision on safety in individual cases rests with the Courts.

24. As explained in the Department's February 2000 memorandum all transport providers are required to have adequate insurance cover in relation to their motor vehicles.

Ulsterbus and Citybus are required to demonstrate adequate insurance covering use for hire and reward when applying for Road Service Licences for their vehicles. This is a condition which the Department attaches to the granting of such licences under Section 7 of the Transport Act (NI) 1967.

Education and Library Boards must hold insurance, as required by Part VIII of the Road Traffic (NI) Order 1981, covering all of their vehicles against third party liabilities.

Taxi drivers are required under Article 61 of the Road Traffic (NI) Order 1981, to demonstrate that adequate insurance cover is provided for third party liabilities and damage to property. It is an offence under Article 90 of the Road Traffic (NI) Order 1981 to drive, or cause or permit to drive, a motor vehicle (including a taxi) while uninsured. The penalty is a maximum fine of £5000, discretionary disqualification and 6-8 penalty points on the driver's licence.

25. In addition, the Committee may wish to note that the Department has formal agreements with the Motor Insurers' Bureau in relation to uninsured drivers and untraced drivers which provide for compensation to victims of uninsured drivers and to victims of hit and run incidents or otherwise untraceable drivers. These agreements satisfy the UK's obligations under European Law in this area and match equivalent agreements between the Department of the Environment Transport and the Regions (DETR) and the Motor Insurers' Bureau in Great Britain.

"G --- AVOIDANCE OF DANGER

Maintenance and use of vehicle so as not to be a danger, etc.

115. -- (1) A motor vehicle, a trailer drawn by it and all parts and accessories of such vehicle and trailer shall at all times be in such condition, and the number of passengers carried by such vehicle or trailer, the manner in which passengers are carried in or on such vehicle or trailer, and the weight, distribution, packing and adjustment of the load of such vehicle or trailer shall at all times be such, that no danger is caused or is likely to be caused to a person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on a road.

(2) The load carried by a motor vehicle or trailer shall be at all times be so secured, if necessary by physical restraint other than its own weight, and be in such a position, that neither danger nor nuisance is likely to be caused to any person or property by reason of the load or part of it falling or being blown from the vehicle or by reason of any other movement of the load or part of it in relation to the vehicle.

(3) A motor vehicle or trailer shall not be used for a purpose for which it is so unsuitable as to cause or be likely to cause danger or nuisance to a person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on a road."

"Calculation of maximum seating capacity

61. -- (1) The maximum number of passengers who may be seated in a vehicle shall be determined in accordance with paragraph (2).

(2) In determining the number of passengers who may be seated in a bus -

(a) one passenger shall be counted for each seat length of 400 millimetres; and

(b) where a continuous seat is provided with arms which separate the seating spaces and the arms are so constructed that they can be either folded back or otherwise be put out of use, the continuous seat shall be measured as if the arms were not provided.

(3) For the purposes of paragraph (2) -

(a) a child under 5 years of age who is not occupying a seat does not count as a passenger; and

(b) subject to sub-paragraph (a) three seated children each of whom is under 14 years of age and none of whom are occupying a seat provided with a seat belt shall count as two passengers.

(4) In this regulation "seat belt" has the meaning given by regulation 47 of the Construction and Use Regulations.

(5) For the purposes of this regulation, in relation to a continuous seat which is designed for the accommodation of more than one adult, each part of the seat which is designed to accommodate one adult shall be regarded as a separate seat.

(6) In determining the number of passengers who may be seated in a taxi, a licence shall be granted for such number of passengers that the vehicle can suitably seat irrespective of whether or not there are 400 millimetres available for each passenger.

Provided that where a taxi is being used in connection with arrangements made by a public authority for carrying children, any five children each of whom is under 14 years of age shall be deemed to be four passengers but not more than one child shall be carried alongside the driver.

62. -- (1) Subject to paragraph (3) the maximum number of standing passengers who may be carried in a vehicle shall be determined in accordance with paragraph (2).

(2) The number of passengers who may stand in a vehicle shall not exceed -

(a) one third the number of passengers for which the vehicle, or in the case of a double-decked vehicle, the lower deck, has seating capacity, or 8, whichever is the less; or

(b) such greater or lesser number than that provided for in sub-paragraph (a) as determined by a vehicle examiner and marked on the outside of the vehicle in accordance with regulation 59.

(3) Standing passengers shall not be carried in --

(a) a vehicle with a seating capacity not exceeding 12 passengers;

(b) a vehicle with a gangway any part of the height of which is less than 1.77 metres;

(c) the upper deck or on any step leading to the upper deck of any double-decked vehicle;

(d) any part of the gangway of a vehicle forward of the rearmost part of the driver's seat; or

(e) any part of the vehicle in which the operator has indicated by a notice, the letters of which are at least 10 millimetres tall and in a colour contrasting with the colour of their background, that no standing shall occur.

Contained in the Motor Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (NI) 1999:-

- A bus is a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 seated passengers in addition to the driver.

- A minibus is a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 but not more than 16 seated passengers in addition to the driver.

- A large bus is a vehicle constructed or adapted to carry more than 16 seated passengers in addition to the driver.

- A coach is a large bus designed to have a gross weight of more than 7.5 tonnes and with a maximum speed exceeding 60 mph. A coach fitted with a speed limiter restricting its maximum speed to 60 mph or less is regulated as a large bus.

The Motor Vehicle Testing Regulations (NI) 1995 (SR 1995 No 448) define a 'large passenger carrying vehicle' as a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted to carry more than 12 seated passengers in addition to the driver and which is not a public service vehicle.

23rd October 2000

The Department for Regional Development is responsible for public transport policy and is the sponsor of the Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company and its subsidiary Translink. Through its Ulsterbus, Citybus and Northern Ireland Railways services, Translink carries more than half of those children who do not walk to school or travel by car.

1. To examine the legislation governing the number of school children permitted to travel on buses.

Under current legislation it is legal for up to 101 children, under 14 years of age to travel on a 53-seater bus.

Do you consider that this is a safe practice?

What arrangements do you consider should be put in place for the transportation of school children?

DRD Response:

The regulations which govern the carrying capacity of seated and standing passengers on buses used by Translink are the responsibility of the Department of the Environment (DOE). These regulations are similar to those which operate in GB and are widely regarded as adequate controls on the construction and use of such vehicles. For some considerable time, they have included provisions whereby children can be permitted to share seats, thus increasing the capacity of certain buses used for school travel.

The current Northern Ireland regulation permitting the sharing of seats is contained in the Public Service Vehicles (Conditions of Fitness, Equipment and Use) Regulations (NI) 1995. This regulation permits 3 children under the age of 14 years to share a double seat, where seat belts are not fitted (the 3 for 2 provision). If all the passengers on a 53-seater bus are children under the age of 14, then the application of the 3 for 2 seating provision would legally permit that vehicle to carry a maximum of 98 passengers (76 seated and 22 standing). A similar regulation applies in Great Britain.

The majority of home/school transport provided by Translink is by scheduled stage carriage services. In planning these services and timetables, Translink managers do not use the 3 for 2 seating provision in calculating capacity. The level of service is determined by the adult carrying capacities of the vehicles available. During daily operations, however, drivers are permitted to use the 3 for 2 provision, on an exceptional basis, to meet unforeseen school travel demand. Drivers will use the 3 for 2 rule, as appropriate, rather than leave children to wait for the next bus, which in remote rural areas could be up to an hour later.

If drivers find that the number of schoolchildren using a particular service exceeds the adult carrying capacity on a regular basis, - as sometimes happens at the beginning of the school year - Translink managers will re-plan the operation to re-distribute capacity on the route.

Translink also provides a small number of home to school bus services under contract to Education and Library Boards or individual schools. Whether the 3 for 2 provision is applied to increase the licensed capacity of these services, is at the discretion of the contracting body, but Translink will not operate above the legal carrying capacity.

The Department for Regional Development is content that Translink operates its bus services in accordance with the licensing regulations laid down by DOE. The safety record of Translink's school transport operations is borne out by the accident statistics previously provided to the Committee by DOE. These showed that, in Northern Ireland between 1 January 1996 and 30 September 1999, no children under 16 were killed while 7 were seriously injured in accidents involving coaches, buses or minibuses in which they were being carried as passengers. The statistics do not record how many of these accidents involved Translink vehicles.

The most recent figures provided by Translink to the Department reveal that there was an average of 21 accident claims per annum on behalf of schoolchildren during the period 1990 - 1993. This must be viewed against the issue of more than 66,000 school sessional tickets, which alone equated to approximately 25 million journeys in each of those years. The statistics bear out that Translink provides a safe form of public transport in relation to the numbers of schoolchildren it carries each day.

2. To consider the safety of school children when large numbers are travelling on buses.

Should all buses and coaches used to transport children be fitted with seat belts?

Should buses used for school transport be clearly marked "school transport"?

Should traffic travelling behind a school bus be forbidden from overtaking while children are getting off the bus?

DRD Response:

The requirement for seat belts and signage on school transport are safety matters which are the responsibility of DOE, as the licensing authority. In relation to the question of vehicles being forbidden from overtaking school buses while children are alighting, I can confirm that whilst road traffic regulation is a matter for DRD, any decision to restrict the overtaking of school buses falls within the road safety policy remit of DOE.

Through its transportation objectives, Roads Service has made commitments to explore the issues associated with the Safer Routes to School initiative. This will embrace initiatives which seek to encourage a change in the travel mode of children going to and from school with the aim of encouraging more young people to walk, cycle and use public transport. Specifically a Northern Ireland School Travel Advisory Group (STAG) will shortly be appointed. The key objectives of the STAG will be to examine the following issues:

• Improved road safety and personal safety;
• Improved travel choice opportunities;
• Improved planning of transport, including safe walking and cycling routes and road crossings;
• Better management of travel demand; and
• Encouragement for people to make safe and efficient travel choices.

The intention is that STAG will nominate 5 schools across Northern Ireland to participate in pilot Safer Routes to School Projects. Arising from these a strategy will be developed to support ongoing activity in this area.

3. To consider the need to amend legislation to restrict the number of school children on buses.

What changes, if any, do you consider should be made to the current legislation?

What are the funding and practical implications of amending the legislation to restrict the number of school children allowed to travel on buses?

There are no legislative restrictions on the number of passengers that can be carried on Large Passenger Carrying Vehicles owned and operated by the Education and Library Boards.

Should such a restriction be introduced?

DRD Response:

The Department is not convinced that a case has been made on safety grounds for changes to the current legislation.

If it were to be proven that, for safety reasons, the 3 for 2 seating provision should be abolished, or that amendment is needed to reduce the qualifying age from 14 years, the impact is unlikely to affect the normal operation of Translink services, as these are planned taking account of the maximum adult carrying capacity of the vehicles in use. However, either option could give rise to problems coping with unexpected or short-term extra demands.

There would also be significant cost implications for Education and Library Boards or schools for which Translink operates services under contract. Where these contractors apply the 3 for 2 provision to maximise the numbers of children carried, they may have to hire an extra bus to comply with the revised regulations.

If it could be demonstrated that, for safety reasons, schoolchildren should not be allowed to stand on buses and that a seat must be available for every child, there would be major cost implications for the school travel sector. The Department considers that, for practical reasons, this could not be achieved on stage carriage services, where an adult standing capacity is permitted. To guarantee that seating would be reserved only for children would require school bus services to be operated in the same way as contracted services.

In 1994, Translink prepared an estimate of the additional cost of operating school bus travel in this way. At that time, the company calculated that £29.5 million would be required to increase the capacity of its bus fleet and that there would be additional running costs of £18.4 million. Under current rules, such special school services would not be eligible for Fuel Duty Rebate and the children travelling on them would not be eligible for a concessionary half-fare.

It would not be profitable for Translink to operate school services in this way, unless they were fully funded by the Education and Library Boards as contracted services. Due to declining patronage, Ulsterbus and Citybus do not generate sufficient surplus to enable Translink to absorb the additional costs.

The Department provides a network subsidy to Translink by way of a 50% grant to assist with the purchase of new buses. It is the Department's policy to try to replace the existing fleet when buses have completed 16 years service and coaches 12 years. Translink needs to invest £50 million over the next 3 years to meet this objective, before considering any demand to increase the size of its fleet. [Under the recent budget proposals, the Department will be able to provide only £5.1 million in grant aid.] Therefore, in the immediate future, Translink would be unable to meet the demand for school travel, if it was required to operate on the basis of one seat per child.

Translink does not operate any Large Passenger Carrying Vehicles on a permit basis. Therefore, the Department has no comment to make on the matter of regulations with regard to such operations.

4. To examine the adequacy of insurance cover for buses used for transporting school children.

Ulsterbus and Citybus are insured under a combination of self insurance cover and motor fleet catastrophic cover in terms of public liability for passengers and pedestrians. The Education and Library Boards hold fleet insurance covering all of their vehicles for third party liabilities and damage to property.

Is there adequate insurance cover given the large number of school children that could be travelling on a bus at any one time?

DRD Response:

Translink carries commercial insurance cover for public liability, which will provide up to £5 million for each incident in relation to bus operations. The Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company in addition has a self-insurance provision of around £11 million for accidents involving companies in its group.

5 To examine the adequacy of insurance cover for taxis used in school transport.

What insurance cover is provided for taxis used in school transport?

What checks are in place to ensure that taxis used for school transport are being used legally and have appropriate insurance?

Are these adequate?

The Department for Regional Development defers to others for comment on the above issues.

19 October 2000

1. I do not consider it a safe practice for up to 101 children, under 14 years of age to travel on a 53 seater bus. There should be more buses supplied to allow one child to one seat, not three to two seats as is legal at present.

Many children over 14 years, also travel on school buses and they take up as much room as adults.

2. All buses and coaches used to transport children should be fitted with seat belts. All such buses should be clearly marked "school transport" on both the front and back of the vehicle.

All traffic travelling behind a school bus should be forbidden from overtaking while children are getting off the bus. The oncoming traffic on narrow country roads should also be made to stop while the children are alighting. This is standard practice in Canada, the USA, Australia and New Zealand.

3. Legislation should be made to restrict the number of children on buses transporting them to school to allow a seat for every child and no standing passengers allowed.

The funding for this will be much more expensive but surely a child's life and safety cannot be measured in monetary terms.

Yes, a restriction should be introduced on the number of passengers that can be carried on Large Passenger Vehicles owned and operated by the Education and Library Boards. Please do not procrastinate on this matter until a major accident occurs.

4. Education and Library Boards should be insured to cover all eventualities to vehicles and children.

BETTY LYTTLE

environment committee
inquiry into school transport

25th October 2000

As the leading consumer body for Northern Ireland the aim of the General Consumer Council is to promote and safeguard the interests of consumers and to campaign for the best possible standards of service and protection. Our job is to give consumers a voice - and to make sure that voice is heard by those who make decisions which affect consumers.

Backed by law our role is to bring about change which benefits consumers. We carry out research, publish reports, seek to influence both the public and private sectors and campaign for a fair deal. In addition to certain specific duties in relation to energy, transport and food, we investigate and speak out on the important consumer issues of the day. We handle individual complaints about transport, coal and natural gas but not about other problems.

The Council has special functions in relation to transport which are laid down by Article 5 (1) of the General Consumer Council (NI) Order 1984 which states:

The Council warmly welcomes the Environment Committee's Public Inquiry into Transport Used for Children Travelling to and from School. This enquiry will allow the existing situation and associated Regulations to be reviewed and provide the opportunity for changes that will benefit the safety of young people travelling to school as well as enhancing their early experiences of using public transport as a means of travel. The Council is pleased to contribute to the inquiry and hopes that its views will be of help to the Committee in its deliberations.

The Committee has asked those submitting evidence to consider five questions.

1. To examine the legislation governing the number of school children permitted to travel on buses.

2. To consider the safety of school children when large numbers are travelling on buses.

3. To consider the need to amend legislation to restrict the number of school children on buses.

4. To examine the adequacy of insurance cover for buses used for transport school children.

5. To examine the adequacy of insurance cover for taxis used in school transport. What insurance cover is provided for taxis used in school transport?

This submission provides information which we hope will assist members of the Environment Committee. We have also submitted our video on the subject. We would be very willing to give oral evidence if this would be helpful.

We have identified four key areas in relation to the Committee's questions:

In the main most bus services carrying children to school operate well and do not have 101 pupils on board. However, the legislation as it stands still allows for buses to carry up to 101 schoolchildren.

The Council believes that the legislation covering the transport of young people to school is outdated and is potentially dangerous. We believe that legislation should be brought forward to abolish the 'three for two' rule for buses transporting school children.

The "Three for Two" concession was introduced in the early 1950's. It is now provided for under the Public Service Vehicles Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1985. Paragraph 18 sets out the calculation of maximum seating capacity on a bus which allows three seated children, each of whom is under 14 years of age, to count as two passengers.

In theory it means that a 53 seater bus may legally carry 101 children if they are aged under 14, that is, the normal complement of 53, a further 26 making 79, and a further 22 standing making 101.

Research shows that teenagers today are physically larger than in earlier generations when the Regulations were first introduced. Data prepared for the Northern Ireland Health Promotion Unit in 1990 demonstrates that young people in Northern Ireland have become significantly taller and heavier. More recent data is not yet available but indications suggest that pupils becoming even larger.

In the early 1950's pupils did not usually carry anything other than a small school bag each day. Today the baggage which school children have to bring to school on a daily basis is considerable - schoolbag, books and files, musical instruments, games kit, lunch boxes and so on. This baggage often takes up sitting and standing space and may block the aisle and emergency exists thus making it difficult for passengers to board and alight. It may also cause a potential hazard in the event of an accident or the bus having to brake sharply.

The Committee might want to look at how the amount of baggage on board could be reduced, perhaps through the extension of storage facilities at schools.

Between 1951 and 1999 the volume of traffic using Northern Ireland's roads increased by 562%.

Since the Council was formed in 1985 it has received a considerable number of complaints from school principals and teachers, from parents and from school pupils themselves about the Rule and the safety implications. It has also received letters from a number of organisations stating their concern at the continued existence of the Rule.

At the end of 1994 the Council surveyed a sample of primary, secondary and grammar schools. A minority of primary schools said they had problems with bus transport but more than three quarters (77%) of secondary and grammar schools indicated that they had experienced problems. Over-crowding was by far the most frequently mentioned; almost half (47%) of the schools reporting problems said they had experienced it.

The "Three for Two" Rule is almost impossible for a bus driver to enforce. It is very difficult if not impossible for the driver to gauge:

• The number of school children boarding a bus and therefore the total number on board in order to keep within the Regulations and
• The age of the children boarding the bus in order to know which of them are under and which of them are over the age of fourteen and thus whether he can carry 53 plus 22 standing or 79 plus 22 standing or some combination in between.

The Government requires seat belts to be fitted to minibuses and coaches which are used specifically for the transport of children. In addition, the '3 for 2' rule is not allowed to apply on vehicles were seatbelts are fitte^d. This creates the highly inconsistent situation where a child could legally travel to school on a bus carrying 101 passengers and yet leave the same school on an educational trip by coach where the numbers would be restricted to 53 and each seat would have a seat belt.

In a new Millennium the Council believes that it is unacceptable that legislation exists allowing 101 under 14 year olds to be carried on a bus that, in normal service, would carry 53 seated and 26 standing. We believe that this is not conducive to good behaviour and gives a negative early impression of the benefits of public transport for those affected. The legislation is now almost 50 years old and a revision is long overdue. We believe the legislation should be changed notwithstanding the funding implication.

Safety should be of paramount concern for the providers of school transport. In general, buses are a safer method of travel than car. However, in the event of an accident, the current regulations could result in an increased number of injuries and possibly fatalities.

Indeed, if a bus or other vehicle is overcrowded with schoolchildren the additional inertia this would cause in the event of any accident could exacerbate the impact of any collision or accident.

Seatbelts, where installed correctly and worn, increase the safety of school travel. However, there are a number of issues which the Council believes need to be taken into account when considering the introduction of seat belts in buses carrying school children.

Not all buses used to transport school children are dedicated school buses. Many are normal vehicles from the Citybus and Ulsterbus fleets. While some of these may be specifically 'School Bus' services, not all are. Indeed, buses, on which the majority of passengers are schoolchildren, are often used to provide an adequate bus service in areas outside Belfast. Therefore any decision to introduce seatbelts for the use of children would have wider implications, for example on normal service buses when schoolchildren are carried would all passengers be required to wear seatbelts, where provided?

Would the wearing of seatbelts be compulsory and if so who would be responsible for ensuring that they were worn? This may have insurance implications for either the transport provider or the Education and Library Boards. In practice, this would be almost impossible to police.

There have been technical and safety problems in some instances with the retro-fitting of coaches and minibuses with seatbelts. Would it be possible to safely retro-fit seatbelts on all buses currently carrying schoolchildren?

The provision of seatbelts may make for safer travelling; however they in themselves provide a safety hazard. The belts could, depending on the type used, be used as a weapon against other pupils/passengers. There would also be the potential to trip over loose belts or belts that have been deliberately set to cause tripping to occur. This again could have insurance and responsibility implications.

The provision of seatbelts would have no direct benefit for pupils and members of the public who have to stand during their journey.

The Council considers there are practical problems in requiring all public buses to be fitted with seatbelts. It may be possible to require seat belts if only dedicated school buses are operated but even then there may be issues around compliance and enforcement. Such a dedicated bus fleet would undermine the provision of regular bus services.

The public transport system in Northern Ireland is very reliant on the number of school passengers that use the service.

Translink estimate that 60,000 pupils per day are carried to schools on either 'School' or scheduled bus services. Rounded up (2 trips per day x 200 school days) this would equate to around 24 million bus journeys per year. Given that in 1999/2000 there were 69.3 million bus journey^s taken in Northern Ireland this would equate to a third of all bus journeys. This provides important revenue for Translink in operating bus services throughout the Province.

Indeed Translink again estimate that around 1000 of its total fleet of 146⁴ buses are involved in transporting schoolchildren daily during school terms.

As a result we can see the dependence of public transport in the Province on the business provided by school travel. Indeed, outside of Belfast, many Ulsterbus services would be uneconomic to operate if it were not for the number of schoolchildren using them.

It would be possible to have special markings on dedicated school bus services owned and operated by the Education and Library boards. However, there may be practical difficulties in doing this on bus services owned by other operators. While it may be possible for the destination boards to show "School Bus" at the front it may not be possible to identify the bus on its side or rear.

As highlighted earlier, not all buses carrying schoolchildren are dedicated school services. Many are used to supplement the Ulsterbus timetable outside of Belfast. Designating all services carrying pupils as School Services would have a severe negative impact to the provision of scheduled bus services outside the city, particularly in rural areas, some of which are already sparsely served.

The Committee may also want to consider whether dedicated school transport operated by the Education and Library Boards is the most efficient and cost effective way to provide bus services for young people travelling to school.

All vehicles used to transport pupils should carry adequate insurance coverage for both road insurance and public liability insurance. This is the responsibility of the Education and Library Boards and the transport providers. All those providing a transport service to young people should be required to produce proof of cover for each vehicle used in the transport of school children. The Education and Library Boards/Schools should only make use of companies and cars that have provided proof of coverage. Clarity would be required on who is responsible in the event of accident or incident.

Education and Library Boards and Schools should also take into consideration any responsibilities under The Children Order (NI) 1995 in relation to the hiring of taxis and other vehicles used to transport school children.

27 November 2000

I would respectfully request an opportunity to present to the committee the views and comments of the private sector of the passenger transport industry.

The provision of "home to school" transport is a very important part of the mix of work undertaken by most private coach operators in Northern Ireland. I am sure that the committee would benefit from the experiences of private operators who have provided safe, reliable school transport for many years.

We have already had to improve vehicle standards, introduce a "seat per child" policy and install seat belts to very specific regulations.

There is no doubt that many of the professional private companys would be both willing and very capable of dramatically increasing the volume of school work they undertake. For many years we have been asking for the Translink/Education Board, schools transport monopoly to be broken.

Traditionally it has only been special care school transport which was offered to the private sector on a tender basis. Until recently, even this was only offered on 12 month contracts, however 3-5 years is now the norm. The opening of Integrated schools in some areas has seen the introduction of private vehicles on regular school contracts and we see no reason why this cannot be extended.

We firmly believe that new legislation is needed to introduce common standards for all transport providers. It is surely contrary to European Law that a member state includes standards in its contracts, which cannot be met by its own vehicles.

The practical and financial implications are significant, but the safety of the children must be of paramount importance.

I look forward to discussing these points further at your convenience.

18 October 2000

1. Thank you for providing an opportunity to submit the views of the Royal Ulster Constabulary concerning the transportation of children to and from school.

2. Carriage of school children by bus is an emotive subject and one which has been the source of complaints for many years, particularly regarding the number of school children carried.

3. Although collision statistics during the past 5 years indicate that children are more likely to be killed or injured whilst travelling to and from school by car, the potential for casualties in the event of a collision involving a bus is enormous.

4. Child safety is one of the Force's highest priorities and is therefore a constituent part of our ongoing Road Safety Strategy, Operation 'Roadsafe'. Members of the Force who regularly deliver the road safety message to school children always highlight the dangers associated with travelling to and from school on buses, particularly relating to disembarkation. School buses on numerous occasions, sometimes at the request of parents, are stopped and examined to ensure that children are being carried in accordance with current legislation and are not exposed, unnecessarily, to the risk of death or injury.

5. It is considered that the 1997 Road Vehicles Lighting Amendment Regulation was a positive step towards addressing our concerns however legislation relative to the numbers permitted to be carried on buses may require further deliberation. Although bus companies do operate a voluntary restriction, legislation allows the carriage of a maximum of 101 children under 14 years of age to travel in a 53 seater bus. In the interests of safety the Royal Ulster Constabulary does not believe that it is safe practice to carry this number of children and indeed the carriage of any standing passengers is considered unsafe.

Ideally every child should be afforded the comfort and safety of an individual seat however this must be balanced against analysis of collision statistics, costings, and what would mount to a significant increase in vehicular traffic which could create additional Road Safety implications in the vicinity of schools. The effects upon the environment may be another issue to contemplate.

6. The Royal Ulster Constabulary considers that it is desirable to have all buses utilised in the transport of children fitted with seatbelts. There are, however, a number of issues which would require consideration. Enforcement of such legislation would be difficult in respect of the usage and in determining who would be responsible if a child fails to comply. It would be grossly unfair to place such a burden upon the driver.

7. Inclusion of the text 'School Transport' upon signs currently used is a worthwhile proposal.

8. Legislation in the United States forbids overtaking of school buses when children are disembarking. Although this is an excellent proposal and it is tempting to introduce similar legislation in Northern Ireland, given the road structures in some instances, this suggestion is deemed to be inappropriate. It is considered the such legislation in many cases would create congestion and obstruct traffic progression. Current legislation allows for the use of hazard warning lights however in addition, consideration could be given to the requirement to fit additional amber warning lamps to the rear of vehicles engaged in the conveyance of children.

9. Education and Library Boards should be subject to the same legislative requirements as any other organisation engaged in the transporting of school children. The risk of death or injury to a child is in no way diminished because they are conveyed by Board transport.

10. It is considered that the Royal Ulster Constabulary would not be adequately qualified to express an opinion as to the adequacy of insurance cover. Our function would be limited to determining as to whether or not the vehicle is insured in accordance with the Road Traffic (NI) Order.

11. Taxi firms tendering for this type of work, it is understood, are required to furnish insurance particulars and information concerning proposed drivers. It is assumed that regular checks of documents are undertaken and the character of any driver is scrutinised in view of other potential risks that children may be exposed to.

12. In summarising the Royal Ulster Constabulary ideally would wish to see all children conveyed in buses provided with individual seating and access to seatbelts. All buses should display a notice and should be fitted with additional hazard warning lamps.

13. However, one must examine this proposal against the very substantial costs and potential increase in damage to the environment and increase in congestion. This is indeed a very difficult decision to undertake. We cannot place a cost against a human life. I wish the inquiry every success with their deliberations and the difficult decisions which they will be required to undertake.

14. I trust the above comments are of value and should you wish to discuss any aspect of this submission, or indeed any other issue which you feel the Royal Ulster Constabulary can assist, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Killed Injured Total

During the last 5 years 413 children were injured whilst travelling to or from school by bus.

Injuries include slight and serious

Buses include minibuses.

5 October 2000

Limavady has four Post Primary schools serving an area from the Waterside to Coleraine. St Mary's and Limavady High School have a combined school population of 1602, approximately 1000 of whom travel to school by bus. The other two schools share the problems we experience with school transport. (Limavady Grammar School and Limavady College of Further and Higher Education.) Pupils from all four schools travel to schools on the same buses. In the evening some buses are shared and some are for one school only. The only provider of school transport for mainstream pupils is Translink, under contract from WELB. We understand that the proposed changes will require additional funding, but as this is an issue concerning the health and safety of children, we feel that it should receive priority.

• Overcrowding on some buses.
  Some buses in our area are allocated up to 90 pupils.
• Misbehaviour by some pupils.
  With such large numbers in a confined space, carry-on is inevitable. This can lead to a dangerous situation for the driver and other road users.
• Bullying.
  The incidence of bullying is higher on buses, which are unsupervised and crowded.
• Vandalism.
  The yearly bill for vandalism is too large, and encourages a lack of respect for public property among young people.
• Sectarian taunts/fights.
  Fortunately such incidents are not common in the Limavady area. Where they have occurred they present a major problem for Translink, schools and road users.
• Intimidation of some drivers.
  The task of school bus driver becomes impossible with 80+ pupils in a 54 seater bus, trying to drive along the Limavady/Derry road at rush hour!
• Disturbance to other road users.
  The bad behaviour on buses presents a danger to other road users, and reflects badly on the schools and community.
• Standing on crowded bus for journey of 18 miles.
  The regulation which allows 22 pupils to stand on a school bus does not suit a rural area where distances can be long.
• Loading and unloading of buses.
  The most common form of injury accident in this area has been when pupils have been loading or unloading from the bus.
• Inferior service to areas on Translink service.
  The idea of concessionary fares is a good one, but does not apply in an area where Translink is the carrier. This is discriminatory and should be changed.
• Bus Pass not available to pupils less than 3 miles from school.
  Pupils from King's Lane in Ballykelly must pay for their bus travel to St Mary's and Limavady High, but can get a free pass to Limavady Grammar School.

• That every pupil is guaranteed a seat and seat belt.
• That specially adapted school buses are used on every route.
• School buses be identified by colour (yellow) for other road users.
• That bus escorts be engaged as part of the contract.
• That video buses be used on difficult routes.
• That bus passes carry photograph of holder.
• That loading and unloading of buses be supervised.
• That transport carrier, ELB, school and parent be involved in disciplinary procedure.
• That pupils who misbehave on buses be refused free transport through disciplinary procedure.
• That an agreed Code of Conduct be drawn up for all school bus users and operators.
• That the same bus driver be scheduled for each bus route (as far as possible).

It is our view that the difficulties experienced by our schools would be replicated across Northern Ireland. We would ask that the Assembly would effect the necessary legislative and financial change necessary to improve this difficult situation.

17 October 2000

1. In response to Press Notice 136/00 I would like to take this opportunity to outline the position of Strangford Integrated College, which is situated in Carrowdore, a mere 7 miles eastwards from Newtownards.

2. At present there are 340 pupils enrolled in this school, of which 315 utilise Translink as their primary mode of transport due to the monopolised position that Translink has traditionally enjoyed.

3. Currently 5 buses collect pupils from the lower Ards Peninsula, Bangor, Comber, Newtownards and the outskirts of Belfast namely Dundonald and Holywood, and deliver them to Strangford College.

4. In order to formulate a comprehensive and representative response to the issues raised by the Environment Committee, the Parents' Council was convened which, after discussing the issues, decided to stringently monitor the volume of pupils being carried and establish whether or not the legal capacity requirements were being flouted.

5. Simultaneously a questionnaire was distributed to enable both the parents and the pupils views to be aired regarding the safety, quality and capacity of travel via Translink.

6. On receipt of the completed questionnaires it rapidly became apparent that parents and pupils were completely unaware that the official capacity on a single bus would permit 101 pupils under the age of 14 to be transported together. This provoked outrage from the parents, and most regarded this as scandalous and a blatant breach of trust, as parents had misguidedly entrusted Translink to convey their offspring to school and had assumed that they would be treated in a humane and dignified manner.

7. Our survey established that although Translink had not breached the legitimate 101 figure never the less some of the buses were regularly operating at optimum human capacity with pupils standing in the aisle from the rear of the bus and incredibly right up to the front beside the driver.

8. Great concern was prevalent among parents as they are increasingly aware that in the event of an accident or even an emergency stop, that casualties are inevitable due to the number of pupils routinely standing and the fact that none of the seated pupils are restrained by seat-belts as none are provided.

9. Many pupils have expressed concern about the "roller-coaster effect" as the buses hurtle along country roads at speed. Indeed one parent followed one bus at speeds of up to 70 mph and subsequently report the matter to Newtownards RUC and also Translink depot in Newtownards. More recently the pupils were alarmed when a full window dislodged from a bus and smashed on the road whilst en-route to Newtownards.

10. We feel that problems of overcrowding will be exacerbated over the next two years as an extra 80 pupils per year shall be enrolling until the end of Year 12 when some pupils shall leave school to seek employment. Thus we need to adapt a pro-active approach to these problems so that any deficiencies are alleviated now and not compounded for subsequent years.

11. It is interesting to note that Mr Ted Kesketh (Managing Director Translink) issued documents at the Northern Ireland Economic Conference in October 2000 stating that "Translink has made significant profits in the last years on an annual turnover of over £100 million." Further in the document it asserts that Translinks vision is "to provide co-ordinated bus and rail services" which "create genuine customer satisfaction and "enjoy public confidence".

12. Whilst we applaud any business that is optimising its financial return and striving to create customer satisfaction and public confidence we would expect to see these aims and assertions demonstrated in a tangible and practical manner by diverting some of the profits to improve the safety and quality of the service in order to achieve genuine customer approval and inspire public confidence rather than deflate it.

13. It may be the opportune moment to comment that since we are regularly being urged to forsake our cars and use public transport, will our children who regularly endure cramped and unsafe travelling conditions on their way to school, be more or less likely to use public transport when they start work??

14. Whilst we have been swift to level criticism about the deficiencies of the service provided I feel that it is only just that I draw attention to the fact that Translink has recently re-routed the second Bangor bus to follow the first one. Although this has reduced the massive overcrowding on one bus, it still has not resolved the problem. However, it is a step in the right direction and one which we hope is sustainable.

15. Secondly after having consulted with a sergeant in Newtownards RUC Traffic Branch he has disclosed that a Translink inspector has assured him that buses will not exceed the official adult capacity instead of the legislative 101 figure. This we readily admit is an improvement but fear that it is just a temporary expedient measure to deflect an adverse reaction from the Environment Committee.

16. In conclusion the recommendations of the Strangford Integrated committee are:-

1 Seats provided for every child.

2 Provision and enforcement in use of seat-belts.

3 Reducing present 101 capacity to a more realistic figure to ensure safety of passengers.

4 No school children to be left at isolated bus stops which occurs at present.

5 Proper insurance provision to cope with volume of pupils carried.

6 Regular random spot checks by Transport Licensing and Enforcement or RUC to ensure compliance with law.

7 Enforce use of storage space on a bus for PE kit bags and instruments etc.

We welcome an early response and thank you for your consideration of these matters.

20 October 2000

1. To examine the legislation governing the number of school children permitted to travel on buses.

2. To consider the safety of school children when large numbers are travelling on buses.

3. To consider the need to amend legislation to restrict the number of school children on buses.

4. To examine the adequacy of insurance cover for buses used for transporting school children.

The safety of children going to school by bus has been the subject of much publicity. The bus companies take their responsibilities for school transport very seriously. A great deal of management effort is devoted to the continuous scrutiny of operational arrangements and in every respect our services comply with all the various legal requirements. Road safety statistics confirm the safest form of road use is as a passenger in a bus or coach, and children going to school by bus are six time safer than those travelling by car.

There are often allegations of overcrowding on school buses. These are rigorously investigated and invariably demonstrated not to be the case, when measured against the legally determined capacity of the vehicle. Translink has no role in determining the maximum number of passengers that may legally be carried on a bus. The legal capacity is determined by the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland under the Public Service Vehicles (NI) Regulations 1995.

In the matter of school transport Translink is a service provider to the Education and Library Boards. It is the Boards who specify the level of service they require. It would be possible, for example, for Boards to specify that every child must have a seat. This would of course have major resource implications. Our understanding of the Board's present requirement is for the bus companies to convey school children safely, legally and efficiently. This we endeavour to do. In 1999/2000 65,011 children travelled on passes issued by Translink on behalf of the Education and Library Boards.

There has been a long-standing regulation, applicable throughout the UK, which permits three pupils under the age of fourteen years to occupy two adult seats. This gives rise to a very large potential capacity and a figure of one hundred and one children is often quoted.

In practice Ulsterbus do not often utilise the maximum legal capacity of our buses. The guidance to all our managers is that when the loading of a particular vehicle regularly exceeds seventy-five, irrespective of the children's age, they must seek an alternative solution. This might take the form of reorganising services, arranging for some children to go on a different bus, or the provision of an additional vehicle. The principal reason for our policy is the behavioural problems which can arise from a large number of unsupervised children in a confined space and the vandalism which results.

Although known in confidence to the Department and to Education and Library Boards, this policy has not been made known to the general public, the reason being that it is essentially a guidance to be used in service planning, rather than an absolute rule. There are occasions when it is desirable to use the extra legally permitted capacity. For example, it is invaluable in coping with unexpected fluctuations in demand at the start of a school year. When such situations are identified, immediate or early action is taken to adjust service arrangements. Also, from time to time during the year there are occasions when, for whatever reason, more children than scheduled present themselves for a particular bus. The ability to use this extra permitted capacity to cope with unexpected passenger demand prevents children being left behind. The clear instruction to all our Managers and drivers is that they must not exceed the legal capacity of the vehicle.

The fitment of seat belts may seem an obvious safety measure, but is more complex than may be immediately apparent. Where fitted by Ulsterbus as a safety initiative, the usage by passengers on a voluntary basis has been very low. We would welcome legislation requiring their mandatory use, where fitted.

The introduction of low-floor buses to meet accessibility and other requirements of the Disability Discrimination Act reduces the seating capacity from fifty-three seats to forty-three seats per bus, with an increase from twenty-two to twenty-eight standing passengers. In order to improve the proportion of seats per bus, Translink have at present twenty new double-deck buses on order. These will provide seventy-five seats per bus.

It is suggested that greater emphasis on road safety education and improving discipline at school boarding points would be beneficial, given that more children are killed or injured near the school bus than as occupants.

This statement is related specifically to the 'three for two' clause applying to children under fourteen and quotes the theoretical capacity of a fifty-three seater bus as one hundred and one. (This calculation is valid only in respect of a vehicle which is authorised to carry fifty-three seated and twenty-two standing passengers, i.e. seventy-five adults.)

A number of points should be made about the 'three for two' legislation. Historically, the relevant order excluded a proportion of the seating capacity. Appendix I shows the progression from SR & ONI 1965 No. 161 (Public Service Vehicles) paragraph 4a(III) which applied the 'three for two' rule to the seating capacity reduced by six. An amendment in 1969 referred to "six necessary adult attendants" thus perpetuating the reduction of six seats.

Although the 1985 version (SRNI 1985 No. 123 Road Traffic and Vehicles, Public Service Vehicles Regulations (NI) 1985) deleted reference to this reduction, Ulsterbus continued to apply the original calculation in respect of application of the 'three for two' rule, i.e.

and this is the maximum capacity Ulsterbus would recognise.

As the majority of our school transport is carried out on a stage carriage basis, there is the probability of some seats occupied by adults.

The 'three for two' rule applied to children under fourteen as at the first day of school session. As this age does not correspond with the administrative break between primary and second education, the qualification of secondary school pupils by age is not easily computed, and presents a practical difficulty for bus drivers.

Due to the increasing stature of school children and the burden of school books, sports gear and musical instruments which they carry, the actual loading of three secondary pupils in the twelve to thirteen year age range into a double seat is more theoretical than practical.

It must be emphasised that the application of such rules is specific to the circumstances of each journey, which can vary from day to day and the decisions have to be taken by the bus driver at the roadside bus stop, which is not always at school premises.

National road safety statistics confirm that the safest form of road use is as a passenger in a bus or coach. Previous studies of the 'three for two' rule in Great Britain have concluded that there was no safety case to answer and continuation of the clause did not constitute a safety hazard. (Report by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents - quoted in Parliament - 14 December 1993.)

The safety record in Northern Ireland for 'on board' passengers, both adults and children, is very good indeed. Accidents involving children tend to fall into two main categories, both off bus. The first type of accident is when a large group of children intent on boarding a bus rush forward. The children behind push the children in front into the path of the bus before the driver is able to bring the vehicle to a complete stop. The second main type of accident concerns children crossing the road after leaving the bus.

In Northern Ireland transport of school children is integrated with the public transport bus network. Indeed, pupils currently account for over 50% of total passenger journeys. As they are concentrated within the hours of peak usage, it follows that virtually all Ulsterbus and Citybus vehicles convey school children during the relevant periods. The question therefore implies "should seat belts be fitted to all public transport buses?". This is contrary to the trend of legislation in UK and Europe which promotes the use of seat belts primarily on long distance and higher speed operations.

To this end Ulsterbus has voluntarily equipped its entire fleet of Goldliner Express coaches used to provide the faster, inter-urban services right across the province, even though seat belts are not legally mandatory on the relevant category of operation.

At present there are some difficulties associated with widespread fitment of seat belts. A secure anchorage is essential if seat belts are to prove effective. Secure fitment of seat belts in buses has proved very difficult, especially on older buses, so much so that retrospective fitment would in some cases be impracticable.

Seat belts have proved to be very prone to interference and vandalism by school children. There is anecdotal evidence of children wrapping belts around other children's necks.

The law does not require the use of seat belts when fitted. If such legislation were to be introduced, there are the practicalities of enforcement to be considered.

Given that school transport is fully integrated with public services, this question really means that all Ulsterbus vehicles would be required to display the signage, which would negate the value of the suggestion.

Any suggestion that the sign should be displayed on school journeys and not on other journeys is virtually unworkable in practice.

Ulsterbus vehicles often display the legend 'School Bus' or the school name on their destination display, but only when this is unlikely to cause confusion to other passengers. Most buses cannot display destination information to the rear.

This question appears based upon a false premise, that overtaking vehicles present a greater safety hazard to alighting passengers than oncoming vehicles. We understand that North American practice requires vehicles in both directions to come to a stop while school buses are unloading. In the absence of widespread respect by vehicle drivers such a proposal might introduce new dangers to child pedestrians who relied on correct driver behaviour.

There is nevertheless a need for road safety education:

a) among school children to impress the need not to cross the road until the bus has moved away, and there is a clear view in both directions; and

b) among drivers generally that the presence of a bus at a bus stop (or roadside location in rural areas), equates with the potential hazard of a child darting across the carriageway.

It is very clear from road safety statistics that children are safer as passengers on buses than as pedestrians, cyclists or as passengers in cars. The safety of school children could be best served by widespread promotion of the use of buses for the home to school journey.

If it is deemed desirable (as distinct from necessary) to change current legislation and given that Translink make only limited use of the 'three for two' rule, there would be no objection to the scope of that rule being restricted. We suggest that the extremes of application of the 'three for two' rule be reduced by restricting the arrangement either by proportion of seating capacity or by age, or both.

For example, three seated children under fourteen years of age shall count as two passengers subject to the following limitations:

1) This clause shall not apply to any seat provided with a seat belt.

2) In the case of children under twelve years of age the number of seats so occupied shall exclude half of the total seating capacity of the vehicle.

3) In the case of children under fourteen years of age the number of seats so occupied shall exclude two-thirds of the total seating capacity of the vehicle. In these calculations a fraction shall be rounded up to one child.

This would allow a typical fifty-three seater bus with approval for twenty-two standing to carry eighty-eight primary children or eight-four secondary children.

A simpler and more readily understood change would be to eliminate the 'three for two' rule for secondary school children, retaining it only for primary school children. The downside of this proposal is that it removes a capacity margin for secondary school travel.

Without additional resources, the consequence of any very substantial curtailment of the maximum capacity of buses carrying school children would first and foremost be a substantial increase in the number of cases where children cannot be lifted and are left at the bus stop. The Inquiry must therefore consider also the safety and personal security issues arising from this consequence. Parents are likely to perceive the transport of their child in a well loaded bus, albeit in conditions of poor comfort, to be safer and preferable to the child being left standing at the roadside to await another bus or an alternative arrangement being made by the school (in conjunction with the Education & Library Board and/or Translink).

A modest curtailment of the scale of the 'three for two' legislation is unlikely to have very significant cost implication. Abolition of the 'three for two' regulation in isolation is expected to require the introduction of around twenty additional buses at a capital cost of £2.4m and an annual running cost of £1m. However, the timetabled services would not be able to cope with the range of variation in loading normally experienced and there could therefore be delays in clearing some bus stops when more than the usual number of pupils present themselves. Experience suggests this is more likely to arise when children are returning from school in the afternoon, although problems with the forward journey to school in the morning cannot be ruled out.

Abolition of standing passengers without removal of the 'three for two' concession was costed in 1994 to require ninety-six additional buses. Updated costs would be:

Abolition of both the 'three for two' and the standing passenger provision (i.e. a seat for every child) was also costed in 1994 and estimated to require three hundred and thirty-nine additional buses. Updated costs for these would be:

These estimates allow only for the pupils currently carried by Translink. There would also be cost increases for children carried on Boards' own buses and on contracted buses. The estimates were also based on continued use of fifty-three/sixty-five seater buses. However, given that DDA accessible buses have a maximum of forty-three seats, the additional cost will increase progressively due to that legislation by an estimated thirty buses per year over ten years as the new buses are introduced.

a) Without school children a very high proportion of public bus services, especially in rural areas would be at risk.

b) Children on ordinary services travel at half-fare with the Government reimbursing the operator for the concession. Charges to Education and Library Boards are based on the half-fare but only Citybus benefits from concession fare recovery. The 'loss' to Ulsterbus is in excess of £10m per annum.

c) The total cost of school transport might be moderated if renewed efforts were made between Education Boards, schools and the bus operators to have greater staggering of school hours. This would enable more cost-effective use to be made of buses.

Translink confirm that the arrangements described in the TOR are still in place for Ulsterbus and Citybus. This insurance is fully adequate for the largest number of school children which would be travelling on a bus at any one time within the present Public Service Vehicles (Condition of Fitness, Equipment and Use) Regulations (NI) 1995.

Should the Inquiry be minded to reduce the maximum carrying capacity of buses, there could be a greater risk that bus drivers, perhaps inadvertently, would allow more children onto the bus than the (reduced) limit rather than leave them at the roadside. Such a breach of the Regulations could potentially undermine the insurance cover and steps would need to be taken to ensure adequate cover is maintained in such circumstances.

During the 1999/2000 school year Translink provided school transport on behalf of the five Education and Library Boards for 65,011 pupils as follows:-

There is very close liaison on a daily basis between District and Area Managers, and schools. In addition, senior members of Translink meet with Education and Library Board Transport officers twice per year to ensure that we continue to provide a service of the highest quality. In addition to the numbers quoted above, many other children who do not have a 'school pass' are carried on scheduled services as fare paying passengers.

Northern Ireland has the most cost-effective system of school transport in the whole of the United Kingdom. Figures for average cost per pupil transported are as follows* :

Whilst the Inquiry is properly concerned with safety and capacity issues, it must be appreciated that any legislative change could have far reaching effects on resources. If, for example, the cost of school transport in Northern Ireland rose to the level of English Shire counties, there would be an added cost to the education budget in excess of £10m.

The reason for this difference in cost can be attributed in large measure to differences in the method of provision of school transport as shown below* :

* Source of statistics : "School Transport" published by Sian Thornthwaite Consultants Ltd. 1999

In Northern Ireland the major proportion of pupils are carried under stage carriage legislation on local buses which are fully integrated within the network of public transport bus routes. This contributes to the overall efficiency and economy of transport provision. It also takes a high degree of responsibility for administration down to the detail of determining bus routes and allocating pupils to specific bus journeys away from the education authorities and transfers it to the public transport operator.

By contrast, in Great Britain the equivalent majority proportion are carried on contact hire buses, requiring the education authorities to plan routes and allocate pupils to specific journeys which greatly increases the authorities' administration costs.

It is not the policy of Translink (Ulsterbus or Citybus) to make use of the 'three for two' regulation to any significant degree. Managers are encouraged to plan their operations and the allocation of children to buses on the basis of the PSV approved seating and standee capacity of the vehicles concerned (i.e. capacity for adults for which the vehicle is constructed and approved), and to monitor carryings against this standard on an ongoing basis.

However, the number of children presenting themselves for travel can vary on a day to day basis. In particular, weather and other extraneous factors can result in variations to school programmes such as cancellation of after school sports activity. Bus drivers are aware of the 'three for two' rule and this gives them the margin they require on a day to day basis to pick up the number of children presenting for travel.

A recent survey of bus loadings following the start of the current school term (as yet incomplete) indicates that the 'three for two' rule is being used on only 3.3% of the journeys surveyed and where loadings exceeded the adult capacity, they did so by only small numbers (average four pupils).

During 1992-1994, Ulsterbus responded to the general desire for greater comfort for school children by introducing new buses with a higher proportion of seats. These vehicles have sixty-four or sixty-five seats with eleven or nine standee spaces, i.e. retaining the overall capacity of the former standard bus, but with a high proportion seated. A total of sixty-seven vehicles of this type were purchased. We also converted twenty existing vehicles on the same principle, achieving sixty-two seats and eight standing.

However, introduction of the low-floor bus in anticipation of DDA legislation has reduced the maximum seating capacity of new vehicles purchased for stage carriage services to around forty-four seats and twenty-eight standing. This legislation will therefore enforce a greater number of passengers to stand. For the same reason we are no longer able to purchase the high seating capacity vehicles favoured in 1994. However, double-deck vehicles are being reintroduced to Northern Ireland in 2001 to provide a greater proportion of seats per vehicle.

From having a modern bus fleet in mid-1990's, Ulsterbus now has one of the oldest bus fleets in the UK. This is due to:

1) Embargo on bus purchase pending the outcome of major PFI and PPP studies which examined possible private sector funding of bus replacement.

2) Subsequent abstraction of £15m Ulsterbus profits, available for bus replacement, to fund the Chancellor's Initiative.

3) The level of new bus grant, which has been capped at £1.7m for several years, bears no relation to the investment backlog and is declining in real terms.

The average age of the Ulsterbus fleet is at present more than eleven years compared with the national target age of eight years announced by the Deputy Prime Minister.

The average age is effectively half the replacement age so that the national fleet average age of eight years equates to a replacement fleet age of sixteen years. Translink currently has 275 buses more than sixteen years old in daily usage.

20 October 2000

1.1 The Education and Library Boards provide a range of statutory education services for the people within their areas. These services include assistance for parents or persons with parental responsibility with regard to home to school transport for their children.

1.2 The statutory basis for the provision of this service is contained within Article 52 of the Education and Libraries (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 which requires Education and Library Boards, with the approval of the Department of Education, to make such arrangements as they consider necessary to facilitate the attendance of pupils at grant-aided schools and such pupils as the Department may from time to time specify at Institutions of Further Education. The Department has issued guidance to Boards in relation to the provision of the service in DENI Circular 1996/41 School Transport.

1.3 The main purpose of transport assistance is to facilitate eligible pupils of compulsory school age with their attendance at grant aided schools. Pupils below compulsory school age including those in reception classes are not eligible for transport assistance.

1.4 In addition to pupils of compulsory school age, pupils/students aged 16-19 in full time education are eligible for assistance with transport on the same basis as pupils of compulsory school age attending post primary school.

1.5 The five Education and Library Boards are responsible for the organisation of daily transport for 110,000 pupils. This transport is provided by

• Ulsterbus, Citybus, Northern Ireland Railways, Lough Swilly, CIE and the Strangford and Rathlin Ferries
• Board owned fleets
• Privately operated minibuses and coaches
• Taxi services
• Allowances to parents

1.6 The operation of home to school transport in Northern Ireland differs significantly from that in the rest of the United Kingdom where transport is provided mainly by privately operated companies.

1.7 Safety is considered by the Education and Library Boards to be of paramount importance in the operation of their transport services, and the transport safety record in Northern Ireland (for all modes of school transport) is exemplary. In the context of an operation involving the daily conveyance of approximately 110,000 pupils there have been no pupil fatalities in the past 10 years as a result of collisions while travelling on Board arranged transport. One child has however been fatally injured while travelling as a result of the accidental opening of a vehicle door, and four children have been fatally injured after alighting from Board vehicles.

2.1.1.1 The practice of seating three pupils under the age of 14 to every two adult seats applies to both public and Board transport, and is in compliance with current legislation. The only difference is that the Boards do not permit standing passengers on their vehicles at any time, whereas public transport services may allow up to 22 standing passengers.

2.1.1.2 Boards would have concerns if public transport operators were to load their vehicles to the maximum legal capacity of 101 pupils under the age of 14, because it is considered that this practice would present a potential hazard in an accident situation. The Boards have an understanding with Translink that when the loading exceeds 75 passengers i.e. 53 seated and 22 standing, the service is augmented. Translink monitors demands on service routes as necessary during September each year. Over-demand on services is generally caused by the late enrolment of Further Education students. It is recognised that operators carrying post primary pupils sometimes experience difficulty in ascertaining whether pupils are under the age of 14 and can be carried under the 3 to 2 rule. Where necessary, operators are expected to augment the service in order to avoid overcrowding.

2.1.1.3 The Boards would accept that safety would be enhanced if each child was provided with a seat and no standing passengers were permitted.

2.1.2.1 The Boards would accept that there are strong arguments in favour of providing each child with a seat, thereby promoting a comfortable and dignified journey to and from school. Children need to be encouraged by their parents to remain seated during their journey thereby reducing the potential risk of injury to themselves and other passengers. Pupil behaviour is a major issue for transport providers. Parents, pupils, and schools all have a responsibility to promote safety on home to school transport. The Boards and Translink are currently working in partnership to produce a Code of Practice for home to school transport.

2.1.2.2 The implications for the Boards would be the substantially increased costs of providing additional transport to ensure one seat per child. The Boards would require very considerable additional funding in terms of capital for additional vehicles and revenue for operating costs, and Translink and the other operators would pass on their increased costs to the Boards in the form of a substantial increase in the cost of a sessional ticket. Account would have to be taken of the vehicle procurement lead-in time before such a change could be put into effect.

2.2.1.1 It must be emphasised that the Boards comply fully with the current legislation which requires seat belts to be fitted in minibuses and coaches. If the legislation changes to allow one child per seat, then the fitting of seat belts in all buses could be considered to be an additional safety feature. However, there are a number of practical implications:-

• Ensuring compliance with the law on the wearing of seat belts already creates major difficulties for the drivers of minibuses. It is considered that it would be impractical for drivers of larger vehicles to be expected to take responsibility for ensuring the wearing of seat belts by all pupils in transit.
• Bus Attendants would be required on all vehicles conveying children to ensure that seat belts are worn.
• Older Board vehicles with no seat belts will require the complete replacement of seating at an estimated cost of £7000 per vehicle. (In many instances it would be more cost effective to replace the buses.)
• There would be major practical difficulties in installing seat belts in many of the vehicles which are currently in service to a standard which would satisfy the stringent seat belt fitting regulations.
• There are stringent regulations for testing seat belts that must be complied with.
• Seat belts will be liable to be vandalised, resulting in the need to withdraw vehicles from service for repair.

2.2.1.2 Home to school transport safety has been a major focus of attention for the past 20 years in the United States of America. School bus crash data shows that the inclusion of seat belts on buses provides little additional protection in the event of a collision. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) have come to the same conclusion. NTSB concluded in a 1987 study of school bus crashes that most fatalities and injuries were due to occupant seating positions being in direct line with the crash forces. NTSB advises that seat belts would not have prevented most of the serious injuries and fatalities occurring in school bus crashes.

2.2.1.3 In 1989, NAS completed a study of ways to improve school bus safety and concluded that the overall potential benefits of requiring seat belts on large school buses are insufficient to justify mandatory installation. NAS also stated that the funds used to purchase and maintain seatbelts might better be spent on other school bus safety programs and devices that could save more lives and reduce injuries.

2.2.1.4 Rather than requiring seat belts, NTSB concluded that the best way to provide crash protection for passengers is through the concept of 'compartmentalization'. This requires that the interior of large buses provide occupant protection to ensure that children are protected without the need to wear seat belts. Occupant crash protection is provided by a protective envelope consisting of strong, closely spaced seats that have energy-absorbing seat backs. The effectiveness of compartmentalization has been confirmed in the NTSB and NAS studies. Since 1995 Education and Library Boards have installed seats in full compliance with the United Nations E.C. 80 crash safety specifications. All new Board vehicles in excess of 20 passenger seats have been fitted with energy absorbing seats. Alternatively a number of large low floor vehicles have been fitted with lap and diagonal seat belts to safety approved seating. Since 1995 all minibuses and coaches must have seat belts fitted as a legal requirement. Education and Library Boards do not operate coaches but have a significant number of minibuses.

2.2.1.5 In its 1989 report, the NAS stated that since children are at 'greater risk of being killed in school bus loading zones (i.e. boarding and leaving the bus) than in the bus, a larger share of the school bus safety effort should be directed to improving the safety of school bus loading zones.'

2.2.2.1 Board buses are clearly marked "SCHOOL BUS" both front and rear. They are also clearly visible by their distinctive colour of lemon chrome and ivory. This is a common agreed standard within Northern Ireland. Many local authorities in the UK are following the Northern Ireland lead. This standardised colour scheme is also acknowledged within recent Northern Ireland road traffic legislation. Board vehicles are considered by the Motor Institute Research Association to be highly visible and readily recognisable.

2.2.2.2 On many of the public transport routes Translink vehicles are destination signed "SCHOOLS" but as many of the public transport services are on designated bus routes and pupils are required to travel on stage carriage services, they do not show any school signs. They must, however, show the amber pupil signs on the front and rear of their vehicles as required by legislation.

2.2.2.3 The advantage of the "SCHOOL BUS" sign is that it informs the public that the vehicle is carrying pupils and therefore warns them to be more vigilant. At present private and public transport operators must use the amber pupil signs on their vehicles, as a legal requirement, when conveying pupils to and from school.

2.2.3.1 This is a matter for the Police and the Department of Regional Development. The Boards would accept that this issue should be explored further, but would feel that there would be likely to be major practical difficulties with enforcement. There would also be major repercussions in respect of traffic flow, particularly in urban areas.

2.2.3.2 If warning lights were fitted to all school buses motorists might be more inclined to treat them as potential road hazards and be more vigilant as a result. It might also make motorists reduce their speed. Present legislation permits Board vehicles to use hazard warning lights when loading and unloading passengers. This arrangement could be extended to include all vehicles transporting pupils to and from school.

2.3.1.1 Attention is drawn to the comments set out above on the issue of providing a seat for every pupil, and on the implications of such an approach.

2.3.2 What are the funding and practical implications of amending the legislation to restrict the number of school children allowed to travel on buses?

2.3.2.1 Any changes to the current seating legislation will impact very significantly on the operation of the home to school transport service. This could result in:

• Major financial expenditure including -
• The purchase of additional vehicles to ensure that every passenger is properly seated. There would have to be a substantial increase in the size of Board fleets and/or the numbers of subcontracted vehicles.
• Higher maintenance, fuel, staffing and insurance costs as a result of operating a larger fleet.
• Increased contract hire costs.
• Increased public transport costs. (It currently costs the Boards £36k to maintain a Translink vehicle on a route.)
• Increased administration costs.
• The withdrawal of transport assistance from significant numbers of pupils who are able to travel at present on Board and sub-contracted services on a concessionary basis (i.e. those who reside within walking distance of their school or who travel to childminders' addresses). Alternative road traffic would be likely to increase as a result, and this would impact on the Government's "Green Policy". There would also be an increase in the numbers of pupils having to walk to school.
• The need to employ increased numbers of drivers and escorts. It should be noted that Boards already experience difficulty in recruiting staff in this part time category.

2.3.3.1 Although Board vehicles are not subject to current legislative controls the Boards apply the following loading limits:

• 16 seater minibuses carry 16 passengers.
• 18 seater wheelchair vehicles can carry 18 passengers or six wheelchairs.
• 20 seater buses carry 20 passengers if all seats are fitted with seat belts.
• 25 seater buses can carry 33 pupils under the age of 14 years if fitted with seat belts on exposed seats.
• 33 seater buses can carry 45 pupils under the age of 14 years if fitted with seat belts on exposed seats.
• 53 seater buses can carry 70 pupils under the age of 14 years if fitted with seat belts on exposed seats.

2.3.3.2 If the 3 to 2 rule were to be abolished then the 25, 33 and 53 seater buses could not exceed their official seating capacity.

2.3.3.3 As stated above the Boards recognise the strong arguments in favour of providing every child with a seat, and would have no objection to the introduction of a legislative restriction on loading levels provided the financial implications are fully recognised.

2.4.1.1 The Boards' insurance policy includes unlimited cover for public liability/personal injury and a maximum of £5,000,000 for damage to property. It is considered that this cover is adequate to meet the needs of the service.

2.5.1.1 Taxi operators must have insurance to satisfy Public Service Vehicle Regulations. Award of contract is subject to provision of details of insurance cover.

The checking of operators' details takes up a considerable amount of time as it involves members of the Transport staff having to visit schools. If these checks are to be carried out more systematically, additional resources will be required.

3.1 As far as transport safety matters are concerned there can be no room for complacency and the Boards welcome any measures that would maintain and enhance their existing impressive pupil safety record.

3.2 The Boards would concur with American findings that more expenditure should be directed to improving the safety of bus loading zones, particularly in those Translink depots which convey the majority of children from one central location i.e. Ballymena, Omagh and Downpatrick. Some school facilities for loading vehicles are also inadequate and improvements could be made in this area. The Boards acknowledge that many schools recognise the danger factor and supervise children while they are boarding buses at the end of the school day.

3.3 The Boards welcome the additional provision of Department of Environment Road Safety Education Officers in each Board area as this will help to address the shortfall in road safety education in schools. The Boards would commend the extension of road safety education to the post primary sector with particular emphasis on all aspects of travel to and from school.

3.4 Behaviour on buses is a major issue for operators, in particular on afternoon services. Stakeholders i.e. parents, schools, Boards, operators and pupils all have a duty of care in promoting acceptable behaviour while travelling to and from school. The Boards and Translink are in the process of developing a Code of Practice that will be issued to all stakeholders.

3.5 Children should remain in their seats at all times when the bus is in motion and should not abuse the vehicle or other passengers. While Boards do operate a behaviour policy the ultimate sanction of withdrawing transport is at variance with the legal requirement to provide transport to 'facilitate a child's education at school.' Misconduct on vehicles is a risk to passengers, other road users and pedestrians. Boards would welcome any legislation that would assist operators in providing a safe environment for everyone.

3.6 It should be noted that a major review of Home to School Transport was carried out during 1999/2000 under Best Value principles. The review highlighted many examples of good practice across the Transport service, and concluded that 'While the review has been challenging and rigorous in examining all aspects of Home to School Transport, it is important to note that the quality and cost-effectiveness of existing Board provision is without question'. A comprehensive report of the review is available on request.

11 January 2001

Combined response of five Education and Library Boards to questions submitted by Environment Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly. (22 November 2000)

Q (A) How many children are carried daily in taxis?

WELB 446

SEELB 1810

BELB 517

SELB 1509

TOTAL 5015

A (All Boards)

For the conveyance of statemented pupils, medical cases of where there are no Board or Public Transport services available to facilitate pupils with entitlement to their nearest suitable school.

A (All Boards)

(Refer also to answer to Question B)

When there are no Board or Public Transport Services available, or in the case of statemented pupils, the journey to school by Board Transport would exceed 1 hour.

A (All Boards)

Pupils attaining the recognised school age of 4 years and 2 months and upward to under 19 years of age. However relative to special education, children under 4 years and 2 months may be conveyed to (for example) nursery education while the child's statement of educational needs is being prepared.

A (All Boards)

Prior to assigning one pupil to an individual taxi, all forms of transport to a particular school are checked for availability of seating. Only when seating is not available would a child be provided with an individual taxi.

A taxi escort would only be provided when a child's particular mental or physical circumstances required same. A taxi service may be provided for up to 4 pupils, in some circumstances one child will always be on his/her own as they are the first/last to be picked up/set down. The Southern Board endeavours not to take one child the complete journey to and from school.

A (All Boards)

The Boards Special Education Departments advise Transport of the need to provide an escort for individual statemented pupils.

A NEELB Every 3 years

WELB Every year
SEELB Every year
BELB Every 2 years
SELB A one year tender, yielding an approval list of operators.

A This varies from Board to Board, please find appended individual Boards Tender Documentation.

A (All Boards)

Individual complaints are dealt with directly by Transport and/or Board Procurement Departments.

All individual daily journeys are agreed and countersigned by schools involved. C.R.O. checks are undertaken on all staff engaged with the taxi services. All insurance and P.S.V. details must be provided prior to a taxi contract being confirmed. (Also please refer to Tender Documents appended)

A (All Boards)

Prior to award of contract all vehicle and driver legal documentation examined by Board Transport or Procurement Department. (Variation between Boards as to whether Transport or Procurement Departments carry out physical checks on insurance details etc.) For Boards operating contracts of more than 1 year, documentation is checked at the start of each school year.

A NEELB 1999/00 - 87 vehicles, 2000/01 - 48 vehicles to date. Checks undertaken 1997 and 1998 - records cannot be traced.

WELB Random checks undertaken but only recorded if serious problems are detected. No serious problems recorded over the past 5 years.

SEELB Random checks undertaken, no formal recording system is in place at present.

BELB Random checks completed at schools - no formal recording system. No major difficulties encountered to date.

SELB Random checks have been carried out but no records kept. No major problems have been encountered.

A NEELB 3 accidents (known to Board). Not aware of any injuries.

WELB No accidents reported to Board. No injuries reported.

SEELB No reports of children injured as a result of an accident involving taxis. There have been 5 minor accidents.

BELB 5 minor accidents, 4 children with minor injuries.

SELB No report of accidents, no report of any injuries.

A NEELB No plans but if financial resources were available would consider the use of 9 passenger seating L.P.G. people carriers.

WELB No plans. Existing fleet of buses already operating with 40% of same due or overdue replacement.

SEELB Taxis are only used as a last resort. It would involve the Board in unreasonable public expenditure to provide Board Transport for a small number of pupils.

BELB As taxi services cater for individual pupil needs it is difficult to recommend a practical alternative.

SELB No plans to replace taxis in the near future.

A (Based on 1999/2000)

1. I understand that the children whose names will be supplied to me by the Western Education and Library Board will be left at school by the stated time each morning and will be collected at the stated time each afternoon from school and returned to the points at which they were collected in the morning unless instructions to the contrary have been received from the Western Education and Library Board.

2. I understand that the Western Education and Library Board reviews all taxi/bus services from time to time and that., if tender is accepted, it may be terminated during the session by the Board giving one week's notice in writing. I understand also that no service should continue after 30 June in any year unless and until the Board gives notice in writing to the contrary.

3. I understand should the agreed route be modified resulting in a decrease or increase in mileage a pro-rate adjustment may be made to the rate charged.

4. It should be noted that the Board will only consider tenders to operate a contract service from a person in possession of a suitable vehicle with a PSV certificate, and holding a PSV licence or employing a driver who holds such a licence.

5. I certify that each of the vehicles which it is intended to use in carrying out this service has been licenced in my contracting name with the PSV Authorities (Department of Environment) and that each vehicle is driven by a person holding a current appropriate Driving Licence.

6. Insurance. I certify that I/We hold valid insurance cover for the vehicle/s and if requested to do so will produce same for inspection.

7. It should be understood that Operators undertaking minibus services (ie vehicles with a maximum of 16 passenger seats) must provide the Board with vehicles which have forward-facing seats, inclusive of secure seat belts that are permanently attached to the vehicle. The Board requires each mini-bus passenger to be provided with individual seats. Operators must exercise a duty of care to ensure that seat-belts are worn by passengers.

8. The Board may require pupils under 14 years of age to sit 3 to 2 seats. Operators offering for Hire Vehicles in excess of 7.5 tonnes gross vehicle weight must furnish documentary proof that the vehicle is unable to exceed 60 m.p.h. Vehicles in excess of 7.5 tonnes G.V.W. and capable of exceeding 60 m.p.h. are classed as Coaches and may only sit one passenger per seat, each seat must be provided with a seat-belt.

9. It is a condition of Contract that all Operators must provide details of their vehicle maintenance procedures, indicating where and by whom the vehicles are maintained and service intervals, and all vehicles other than cars must be presented to the Board's Transport Engineers for inspection prior to the commencement of the Contract or upon request.

10. Only the vehicle/s listed to be used in the service.

11. I hereby certify that neither I nor any employee has had any criminal conviction and in particular no convictions with regard to the abuse of children. I fully appreciate that should I or any other of my employees be charged with such an offence during the period of the contract, any contract awarded may immediately be suspended at the discretion of the Board.

12. I further undertake that prior to the commencement of the contract, I will submit to the Board the names and addresses of all persons employed by me who will be involved in the performance of this contract. I am aware that such details will be used to enable a criminal record check to be carried out. In the event of any such persons being unacceptable to the Board for whatever reason, I undertake to replace them with staff acceptable to the Board.

13. I further undertake to notify to the Board all changes of personnel used in relation to the contract as they occur and will submit such details as are required in relation to such personnel with their consent to enable criminal record checks to be carried out.

14. I further undertake to notify the Board immediately I am aware that any of my employees has been charged with any criminal offence and in particular any offence relating to the abuse of children.