4.7 Careers education and guidance

The three recommendations in this section address the urgent need for an improved careers education and guidance service, and the need to develop the role of the Northern Ireland Business and Education Partnership (NIBEP).

The Committee appreciates that the review of the Burns Report is impinging on other reviews, including the revised Fulton Report on Careers Education and Guidance. However, such is the seriousness of the issue that we expect at least key actions to be taken as an interim measure which then can be further enhanced rather than take no action at all. The Committee highlights the recent acknowledgement by the Department that some areas of the revised Fulton Report need to progress very soon rather than be delayed any longer. The Committee has yet to see any recommendations from the revised Fulton Report. It is keen to see whether its own recommendation (Recommendation 36), to implement an enhanced independent, comprehensive and up to date careers education and guidance service based on best practice and extensive use of ICT, is to be followed.

The Committee called for greater work-related experiences for all teachers, students and lecturers for substantive periods based on the Northern Ireland Business and Education Partnership model (Recommendation 37). It is therefore pleased that NIBEP's remit now extends to further education, and that the 'Lecturers into Industry' scheme is continuing and developing. The Committee would wish to see further development in this area.

Recommendation 38 is closely linked with Recommendation 37 in its call for increased funding for NIBEP, so that it can further its work in developing links between business and education. The Committee welcomes the increased funding received by NIBEP but regrets that it receives significantly less than its counterparts in other areas of the UK.

4.8 Developing the enterprise culture

The final five recommendations in this section focus on the need for a Research, Development and Innovation Strategy, and on links between businesses and universities.

In Recommendation 39, the Committee called for the urgent completion and effective implementation of the Research, Development and Innovation Strategy for Northern Ireland. The Committee is disappointed that there is no sign of this policy. The Committee considers that DEL and the other departments with which it is working on this matter, need to expedite the policy with some urgency.

There is considerable and increasing disparity of funding for Research and Development between Northern Ireland, the rest of the UK and elsewhere. Consequently, the Committee's next recommendation, Recommendation 40, set out the need for a substantial increase in funding. It further argued that 10% should be earmarked for research that is of particular relevance to Northern Ireland. The Committee is pleased that university research is one of three main strategic issues identified by the Department in its Position Report on the Budget 2002 Process. The Committee will watch this situation as it wishes to ensure both an overall increase in funding and specific allocation of funds to research that is particularly relevant to Northern Ireland.

In order to further the development of quality research in Northern Ireland, the Committee recommended that a single unit to co-ordinate and promote Government-funded R&D in Northern Ireland be established. Recommendation 41 also suggested that this unit should handle individual bids for Research and Development for all Government departments. In addition the unit should have a role in developing well- designed research collaboration and technology transfer schemes with other countries. The Committee was disappointed with the response of the Department that this is a matter for the Executive as a whole. It considers that DEL, as the Department with responsibility for research and development in Northern Ireland's universities should be pursuing this matter.

In order to assist the development of an enterprise culture, Recommendation 42 called for academic staff to be given the incentives and flexibility to take research ideas (including company start-ups) to commercial fruition. Again, the Committee was disappointed that the Department's response was to assert that the responsibility for this lay elsewhere. The Committee does not fully accept that this is, as DEL stated, 'a matter for the United Kingdom HE sector as a whole', and that therefore, by implication, there is no initiative that can be taken by DEL. Rather, the Committee considers that DEL, as the universities' main funder, has a major role to play in terms of what it can facilitate and encourage the University of Ulster and Queen's University Belfast to develop in this area.

The final recommendation of the Committee, Recommendation 43, raised the issue of matching research funding. The Committee would like to know the outcome of DEL's discussions with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment regarding the possibility of matched funding for initiatives such as the Higher Education Reach Out to Business and the Community (HEROBC).

The Committee is appreciative of the work undertaken by DEL in the area of education and training for industry. This includes work that was already underway at the time of the Inquiry, as well as work that has been initiated since the Inquiry and that has followed on from its recommendations.

It is not surprising that an Inquiry into an area of such importance to the economy and the people of Northern Ireland should have produced a relatively large number of recommendations. It is also not surprising the DEL has not been able to implement all the recommendations by this stage. This Report has identified the recommendations that have not yet been followed, and identified the areas where more action is needed.

In particular, the Committee would like to highlight the following:

• Essential Skills for Living Strategy (implementation).
• Foundation Degrees (evaluation).
• Support for SMEs (information on what support has been developed in the further education sector).
• Centres of Excellence (information on outcome of DEL's discussions with Invest Northern Ireland).
• Governors of FECs (that they be appropriately experienced and trained).
• Disputes in FECs (decision on Ombudsman).
• ICT module on all FE courses (implementation).
• Co-ordination of initiatives to improve access to higher and further education.
• New Deal (evaluation of New Deal 18 to 24, and evaluation of Enhanced New Deal 25+).
• Industry-standard qualifications on vocational courses (implementation).
• Careers Education and Guidance (implement Recommendation 36 as a matter of priority).
• Research and Development and Innovation Strategy (produce as soon as possible).
• Unit responsible for Research and Development (reconsider response to Recommendation 41).
• Increase funding for Research and Development (particularly in the universities).

The Committee is keen to promote policies that it considers are in the best interests of industry in Northern Ireland. To that end, it will continue to scrutinise the work of the Department in this area with great interest.

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE RELATING TO THE REPORT

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
THURSDAY, 27 JUNE 2002
ROOM 152, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS

Present: Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman)
Mr Mervyn Carrick MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Dr Ian Adamson MLA
Mr John Dallat MLA
Mr David Hilditch MLA
Mr Roger Hutchinson MLA

In Attendance: Dr Andrew Peoples
Mr Colin Jones
Mr Paul Stitt

Apologies: Mrs Joan Carson MLA
Mr Arthur Doherty MLA
Prof Monica McWilliams MLA
Mrs Mary Nelis MLA

Members considered extracts from their draft Report on DEL's response to the forty-three recommendations in the Committee's Inquiry into 'Education and Training for Industry.' Minor amendments were agreed and it was also agreed that the complete draft Report would be considered again at the next meeting. Members agreed to delay release until September 2002 and to submit a motion to debate the Report in the Assembly.

DR ESMOND BIRNIE MLA
Chairman, Committee for Employment and Learning

Present: Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman)
Mr Mervyn Carrick MLA (Deputy Chairman)
Dr Ian Adamson MLA
Mr John Dallat MLA
Mr David Hilditch MLA
Mr Roger Hutchinson MLA
Mr Barry McElduff MLA

In Attendance: Dr Andrew Peoples
Mr Colin Jones
Mr Paul Stitt
Mr Michael Meehan
Mr David Douglas

Apologies: Mrs Joan Carson MLA
Mr Arthur Doherty MLA
Ms Michelle Gildernew MLA
Prof Monica McWilliams MLA

Members carried out the final reading of their Report on the Department for Employment and Learning's Response to the Committee's Report on the Inquiry into 'Education and Training for Industry'.

The Committee ordered the Report to be printed and laid in the Business Office.

Members agreed to embargo the Report until it was debated in the Assembly but to forward copies to the Minister once it was finalised.

Members agreed that the Report should be sent to all organisations and individuals who gave oral or written evidence to the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry and also the Press. The Committee authorised the Clerk to make any minor amendments necessary to the agreed Report.

DR ESMOND BIRNIE MLA
Chairman, Committee for Employment and Learning

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE OF THE COMMITTEE
RELATING TO THE REPORT

Thursday 9 May 2002

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)
Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)
Dr Adamson
Mr Dallat
Ms McWilliams
Mrs Nelis

Mrs C Bell ) Department for Employment
Mr M Caher ) and Learning
Dr R Davison )
Mr T Scott )

1.

The Chairperson: I welcome Mrs Catherine Bell, Mr Martin Caher, Dr Robson Davison and Mr Tom Scott from the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL) to this meeting.

2.

The Minister for Employment and Learning had hoped to be here, but the Executive is meeting and she is unable to attend. This briefing was due to take place in March 2002, but had to be postponed. The Committee was pleased with the broad terms of the response that the Minister submitted in writing, which indicated wide areas of agreement between her thinking and that of the Committee.

3.

Dr Davison: The Minister offers her apologies as she is in Derry for the Executive meeting. We have postponed once or twice previously, so I thank the Committee for the opportunity to come here today. We shall start with a short presentation.

4.

The Minister has welcomed the Committee's report, and the Department has sent a detailed and considered response to each of the report's 43 recommendations. As Mrs Bell and I indicated on our last visit to the Committee, we have already put some of the recommendations such as those on the further education strategy into effect. It is important to note that we are about to engage in a debate on the spending review. Many of the report's recommendations carry funding implications, and we have already submitted a position report to the Committee on the spending review.

5.

Several contextual matters, which will have an impact on the report include elements such as the employability task force, the consultation on the essential skills strategy, and some matters that are emerging from FE strategy work in Great Britain, which are not yet complete. Many questions come into the debate on the issues raised in the report.

6.

The Chairperson: Are you happy to answer questions?

7.

Dr Davison: Yes. Mrs Bell will cover the further education questions, Mr Scott will cover training, Mr Caher will cover New Deal, and, I will cover higher education.

8.

Mr Carrick: Recommendation 9 deals with the further education sector. We recently discussed the scope of the further education strategy. How will that strategy raise the status of technical and vocational education?

9.

Mrs Bell: The Department for Employment and Learning and the Department of Education are looking at the implications of the Burns Report as part of the reconsideration of the further education strategy. A recommendation in that review was to give parity of esteem between the academic and the vocational side. Part of the work on qualifications involves the review of curriculum 2000, which includes the academic and vocational qualifications - several things are working at the same time.

10.

Qualifications are put together in units. Straight A levels and the advanced vocational certificate in education - or vocational A levels - are all equivalent, but a review will not raise the esteem. The esteem would be raised if we could show the value of vocational education, and we are working with the Department of Education on that. The work at age 14, where young people go to college or training organisations one or two days a week and do units of vocational programmes, is helping to show that vocational education is not just for the less able. It is an alternative route to higher education and employment. We will include that as part of the review of the strategy, when we are looking at ages 16 to 19. However, other things must be done to raise the esteem.

11.

We must try to make clear to the public the difference in vocational qualifications. There is a perception that vocational education is for the less able, or is a craft where people work with their hands. We need to get the message across that vocational education - particularly vocational A levels - have the same amount of knowledge content as traditional A levels. There is vocational education, vocational skills, including crafts, and traditional qualifications.

12.

Mr Carrick: I am pleased to hear about your plans for co-ordinating those initiatives, which should have a sharper focus on the outcome of technical and vocational training. How will the strategic restructuring funding be extended, and how will that assist colleges of further education to align their provisions with the needs of the economy and local industry?

13.

Mrs Bell: We are looking at all aspects of funding as part of the review. At present we give additional funding to priority skill areas of vocational courses. We give colleges additional funding if they encourage young people to take courses in the six priority skill areas, or encourage young people to include several areas. For example, too many young people are doing business studies. If a college encourages a young person to do business studies along with information and communication technology (ICT) or engineering, we would give those colleges additional funding.

14.

At present we use the funding mechanism, but we hope that when a young person comes into a college they would be given careers and selection advice to help them choose an appropriate course. We are working with the software industry to produce material so that a young person going to college gets the opportunity to see the range of opportunities that are available in the ICT industry, and we also want them to have the opportunity to look at the different pathways and the mix and match of qualifications. We must encourage funding, and to raise the profile of vocational education we must publicise and inform young people.

15.

Dr Davison: One of the key questions at the heart of the strategy relates to funding, as well as the sector's broad remit, which you touched on. It is a question of how you bring together the Executive's strategic objectives, local economic needs, and individual student choice in a voluntary, post-compulsory education sector; this is a tough nut. When I have debated this issue with college principals, they say that they face large numbers of young people coming forward to do subject X, whereas the Government's strategic objectives promote vocational area Y. They have to persuade those young people that perhaps it is in their interests, as much as in the interests of the region as a whole, to do subject Y rather than subject X.

16.

Dr Adamson: Recommendation 3 of the Committee's Report on the Inquiry into 'Education and Training for Industry' aims to

"Develop flexible and dynamic policies to deal with retraining and reskilling in a range of situations, especially large-scale redundancies."

17.

How will the Department adjust programmes to minimise unemployment, and how will it know when, and if, that is necessary? Has a strategy been developed to address the problems of medium and large-scale redundancies in the light of recent events at Harland & Wolff and Shorts?

18.

Mr Scott: There are two types of unemployment - long-term and dynamic, and you touched on both in your question. The employability task force seeks to address some of the policy issues connected with long-term unemployment and how to deal with that unemployment structure, which is an economic and social issue for us all.

19.

However, most of your question was about short- term employment, and focused on those who have previously been employed and who come into the labour market facing change. We have learnt a lot from our studies of the redundancies at Mackies and Harland & Wolff. We tried to find out how people reacted to redundancy, and how they found alternative employment. For those facing short-term unemployment, we put in place employment service and signposting provision in the company because there was a long period of notice for those redundancies, and introduced some retraining, particularly for some semi-skilled operatives in Shorts. We trained two types of people: those whom the company might retain because the workload was switching from one area to another, and those who would be leaving the company. The training for those going to stay has been successful, and the company has retained approximately 80% of those people. We are still doing some follow-up studies to find out what happened to those who left.

20.

In looking at preventing unemployment, the skills task force has undertaken a range of research about the labour market, looking at where vacancies occur and where economic growth might take place. We are trying to match our programmes to those skill areas. For example, further education, Jobskills, and so forth, have been built to include the areas where there might be growth in the more traditional skill areas. As Mrs Bell said, we have put premium funding into where we see the growth areas, and that has been our strategic approach. We want to enhance the areas where there will be growth, and have less support for areas that will contract. That is not to say that those are less important, it is just that we know where the emphasis ought to be.

21.

Mr Dallat: I welcome everything that has been said. Great strides have been made in the past four years to address the problem of basic skills. I listened to Mrs Bell, and I have heard the same story for thirty years - the argument about vocational education being second choice to academic education, which is considered more superior. I am not sure if this problem is peculiar to Northern Ireland - it may also exist in the Republic. Germany addressed the problem three decades ago, though I am not sure how successful that was. Can the Department for Employment and Learning take any additional steps - through career guidance, television advertising, and other media - to educate young people that vocational education is equal to academic education, and get beyond the fire-fighting approach that accommodates people for a short time but does not change the overall picture?

22.

Mrs Bell: The recognition and acceptance of vocational education as an alternative means of entrance by universities and teacher training colleges has contributed towards that. However, there is still a long way to go. A large number of post-16 secondary schools have introduced vocational education, but there is a downside because they concentrate on areas such as business studies and health and social care. Nevertheless, the profile and esteem of vocational education has been raised. Part of the difficulty is changing people's perception. This is going to be a long haul, and can only happen when people who have come through the vocational education system start to put value on it. The debate on the Burns Report is also helpful. If the focus of the debate is moved from selection to the choices that young people make at age 14, and the results of what the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) has recommended with emphasis on employability could be seen, it would be more beneficial. However, it will take a long time.

23.

It is frustrating when people talk about "the gold standard" A level, when the vocational A-level is just as rigorous. The emphasis is always on making vocational qualifications as good as academic qualifications, and a grammar school principal recently asked why the good aspects of vocational qualifications could not be deployed to more academic disciplines. It will take time, and it is simply a matter of sticking at it. We are looking forward to the result of the software development. The software engineering industry is working with us to examine the content of the curriculum at levels 3 and 4. They are also looking at and developing web-based materials for us, which can help any young person find their way through vocational education and the types of career opportunities that are available. Hopefully, through that, and materials that we will give to schools and people more generally, they will be able to see the value of vocational education. We must show that good jobs are out there, and that well paid careers are possible with vocational education. That will make a difference, but will take a long time.

24.

Mr Dallat: I agree totally with everything that Mrs Bell has said, and I marvel at her sincerity. However, in the delivery of those aspirations should more be done to ensure that there is no unnecessary competition between learndirect and the colleges of further education? Are the colleges of further education firing on all four cylinders? Is more streamlining needed so that the policies and strategies that you aspire to, and have progressed, are going to be delivered uniformly across Northern Ireland?

25.

Dr Davison: Broadly speaking, we need to see where the strategy takes us on the issues of size, structure, duplication, and so on. Repeating what I said earlier, there is a conundrum at the centre of the strategy around what is strategic and in the Executive's interest, what people perceive as their individual interest, and what are local interests - how do we get a balance in those three areas? When we talked earlier about the strategy, I said that you cannot sit in Adelaide Street and know what Coleraine, Portadown or anywhere else needs, and we must find a way of working through that.

26.

Mr Scott: There are three areas in which we try to help people to redirect their skills or career aspirations in adult life. Further education is one, learndirect is another, and, until recently, individual learning accounts was the third. It is important that we have a strategy that takes account of all those issues. Learndirect is very much about introducing people to learning. Much of it is short, sharp learning - bite-sized learning - to help people get back into learning mode. The natural consequence of that will be to go on to further education, and a more structured form of learning. The balance between academic and vocational in that area is clear. It is clearly vocational and less academic, with an introduction to learning.

27.

Ms McWilliams: I have some questions on further education, and the rest are on careers and 16- to 19-year-olds. We have already been looking at the review of further education, and given some of the concerns that emerged recently on the funding mechanisms, can you put it on record that this will be part of the future review?

28.

Mrs Bell: The review of funding is one of the key parts, and we have already started that process.

29.

Dr Davison: We want to start the review by looking at the sector's role and objectives. At present, we think we know the role, and we have got objectives. However, we want to establish if there is a strong consensus around these. We want to start our consideration in that area. If we can establish a strong consensus around these, perhaps the question that we must ask is: how do we develop a funding mechanism that achieves those objectives and that role much more clearly?

30.

Ms McWilliams: Part of the problem is that different people were doing different things. It was retrospective, and the legacy was there. A real concern is that we are coming at this quite late in the day, and I am concerned that a management information system was never put in place across this sector. It is going to take another year - why so long?

31.

Dr Davison: There is a management information system in place across the sector. It is called CIMFENI, which stands for computerised information management for further education in Northern Ireland, and has been in place for several years. The existing management system can no longer deal fully with the growing complexity of the provision in the further education sector, and we must re-examine that. It is not that there was no management information system in the sector.

32.

Mrs Bell: It was introduced at course level, and is predicated on information at course level. We need information at student level so that we can track students. We start piloting several of the modules of the management information system in September, so we are fairly far down the road with that system.

33.

Ms McWilliams: My concern was that there was no attempt to get information on the student base and where those students are coming from - many come from the community sector and the types are crucial.

34.

Dr Davison: We must draw the Committee's attention to the key issue at the heart of many management information concerns in higher and further education. If we were to approach this in a purely logical and rational manner, the solution would be a student identifier that would enable students to be tracked throughout their education. In fact, taking that concept to its logical conclusion, the student identifier would begin when children enter the primary school system. However, that involves data protection issues, and we must be careful to tailor a system that does not contravene data protection laws.

35.

Ms McWilliams: You conducted a review of the Department for Employment and Learning programmes for 16 to 19 year-olds, which was due to be completed a few months ago.

36.

Mrs Bell: We have completed the scoping study and collected all the statistical information. At present, we are considering the implications for DEL policies for 16 to 19 year-olds. The exercise will be completed in September, and will include recommendations for changes that must be made in mainstream further education and Jobskills. At the same time, we are working with the Department of Education to examine school provision for 16 to 19 year-olds. One of the Burns Report's helpful recommendations was that there should be joint planning, management and funding for 16- to 19-year-olds. However, we must get our own house in order. The scoping study was an illuminating exercise, which has been useful in the debate with the Department of Education. Between 52% and 53% of 16 to 19 year- olds are in further education, Jobskills or employment, which are the responsibility of our Department.

37.

Ms McWilliams: Do we have to wait until September for the final results of these programmes?

38.

Mrs Bell: There is no problem providing the Committee with the scoping paper, but we must now consider the policy implications of the programmes and decide what changes we need to make.

39.

Dr Davison: The link with the Burns Report is central, and the way in which that is taken forward is not in our hands. We wish to work closely with the Department of Education, but it has control of the timetable.

40.

Ms McWilliams: I expected the whole process to have been completed by March.

41.

Dr Davison: Even if we had completed the internal work by that time, we would still have had to work with the Burns Report. The Department of Education cannot make decisions about 16 to 19 year-olds without having an impact on the Department of Employment and Learning's provision.

42.

Ms McWilliams: I understand that, but it is difficult to know how to proceed without knowing the outcomes of the programmes with regard to scoping and policy implications. I thought that those would be ready by March.

43.

My next question is on careers. Recommendation 36 is on the Fulton Review, and this will have to be a major element if we are to include everything in the field. I am concerned that we do not have much material on the careers service and careers education, which emerged as one of the major areas of concern in our inquiry. I understand that the Fulton Report has been revised, so what is its current status?

44.

Dr Davison: The Fulton Report has been revised, and is being discussed by the Department of Employment and Learning and the Department of Education. Again, this has become caught up in the Burns Report, because one of the recommendations of that report is that post-16 careers should be passed over to the proposed new collegiates. That was not part of the thinking in the Fulton Report; therefore DEL and the Department of Education will have to consider that report together with the Burns Report otherwise there may be some contention. Again, it is an issue that has arisen because of the Burns Report.

45.

Ms McWilliams: I am beginning to think we should wait until the Department of Education makes a decision on the Burns Report. However, this is such a serious issue, and everything cannot wait on a decision being made on the Burns Report.

46.

Dr Davison: I take your point and, to a degree, we share some of your frustrations. However, Burns does not just make recommendations about the 11-plus; he makes serious recommendations about the entire structure of post-16 education, including careers education and guidance. I should not speak for the Department of Education but I suspect that initial public focus is on Burns's recommendations on the 11-plus. Essentially the debate is likely to move much more strongly towards education for the 14-plus age group, where careers guidance is such a crucial element. If we are to achieve change as a result of the reports, we must consider our course very carefully because they have not necessarily been written from the same standpoint.

47.

Mrs Nelis: Last week's presentation on widening access to higher education was very good. Damian O'Kane presented a very good model of a step-up programme that would address the decline in the numbers of students taking up science subjects. How will the Department address that decline, and could it encourage, or fund, Damian's model?

48.

Mr Davison: I have been very interested by Damian's work. I have been to the University of Ulster to see pupils from the Derry schools working there, and was very impressed. I made the point at the Committee's discussion on Access to Higher Education that we are introducing a number of policies, and we need to evaluate the work that is taking place. Damian's project, together with those at Queen's University have only been operating for two out of the three years that they are due to run. Therefore it is too early to evaluate formally the results of Damian's work. We will want to see what happens to those young people with regard to accessing university education. Damian presented some figures, but we will want to see the end results. We wish to evaluate the work that is going on at the University of Ulster and at Queen's University, both of which have been funded through DEL.

49.

We have to examine other elements also. For example, we are supporting a student mentoring project being run by the National Union of Students. Again, it is too early to decide if that is the route we should follow. They are using further and higher education students to mentor schoolchildren in local areas. This may well offer us another route, additional to that being offered through Damian's work and that of Queen's University. We are also funding premiums to universities for students who do not pay fees.

50.

There are several policy elements contributing towards greater access to higher education. In September, grants for people on low income will be reintroduced and that will add another dimension. The real question is: when do you start to get a clear picture of what elements of policy are working better than others? At present, it is too early to call, and it will probably be next year before we will be able to assess the situation. By then there will have been three years of the step-up programme; three years of the Queen's University work; one year of the new student support arrangements in higher education; three years of premiums; and two years of the work of the National Union of Students. There are several irons in the fire, and it is a matter of judging when to pull the message together. If you go in too early you are not likely to get the whole message, and that is where we are now.

51.

Mrs Nelis: Student support evaluations are due to take place in January 2008, with preliminary assessments in 2004 and 2006. What is the scope of the preliminary assessment? I am concerned that no matter how we encourage widening access, there could still be a bar to students from less well-off backgrounds being assisted financially to go on to third level education. I am not sure when the Labour Government's review on student finance will report back, but will that have any effect on the evaluation?

52.

Dr Davison: The student support evaluations in 2004 will be our first look at the impact of the whole package. We will look at it again in 2006, but the main evaluation is in 2008. These are long-term policies, and judging them too soon would not be the right way to go. We will be looking at the impact of the student support package in 2004.

53.

We will probably evaluate the access implications in 2003-04. Our business plan is set for this year, and we will work out the best way to evaluate them, and do the evaluation in 2003-04. There would be more evidence to draw from at that stage.

54.

Finally, you mentioned the review by the Department for Education and Skills (DfES). Like everybody else, we will have to wait and see what emerges. At the moment there are no indications of what is likely to emerge. There might be implications for us but it is too early to call.

55.

Mr Dallat: I want to go back to something that Mrs Nelis said. I was at the University of Ulster yesterday, where the step-up programme was endorsed by the vice chancellor and the provost as one of the vehicles that helped to deliver the vastly improved percentages of people from less well-off backgrounds going to university. That percentage now stands at 38%, which is not bad, considering that only 1% from the Shankill or east Belfast go to university. During the past 30 years we could do very little. Is it always necessary to have such long timescales for recognising something that is endorsed by a university, and is deemed to be a route that you could go down safely? I am only talking about that one in particular.

56.

Many people turned up in the Long Gallery last week, and teachers from secondary schools said to go for it. The step-up programme is not the only way, and perhaps it would not work as well in other areas, but it does not have to stand still until a certain time has lapsed. Good improvements have been made, and although they are not yet at the level where we would want them, they are much better than they were.

57.

Dr Davison: There are several policies involved in widening access, and significant sums of public money. Therefore, it is extremely important to get a clear picture of what works and what does not work when it comes to allocating money.

58.

I have seen the work of that project. The officer who runs it, Damian O'Kane, is energetic and he has progressed it in an extremely impressive way. However, if you roll this beyond a project, you cannot be sure of having 100 Damians. He works with a small group of academics but, with due respect to Dr Birnie and Prof McWilliams, not all academics may want to engage as actively as those who have engaged with Damian. There may be specific factors at work here, and we need to ensure that we separate out what can be done universally from what works as a project.

59.

You said that it is a long timescale, but we need to see three years of the step-up and three years of the work that Queen's University is conducting. It is not as if we want to examine it at some time in the distant future. We need to see what can be done, and what we can separate out as being applicable on a much wider scale. That is our argument. However, there is no doubt that step-up is extremely impressive.

60.

Mr Carrick: I would like to take you back to careers education and guidance and recommendations 37 and 38 in respect of the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership (NIBEP). I have noted the Department's response with regard to the current constraints in the public sector, and I can understand that. However, unless advisers and lecturers are at the coalface of industry to experience, at first hand, the challenges that the environment is throwing up and the skills that it is demanding, they will fall short. What are the major changes in NIBEP's revised strategic plan? Will it address the fact that more funding is being allocated in other parts of the UK? Will Northern Ireland lag behind?

61.

Dr Davison: We have tried to find some additional money to help NIBEP to extend its range of activities across schools and, more specifically, from the Department's perspective, across the further education sector. I cannot give you the specific changes in their strategic plan.

62.

Mrs Bell: I am delighted that NIBEP's remit now covers further education because of the 16 to 19 year-olds. Some of its suggestions for pilot work in FE were very imaginative. If it turns out to be as good as we hope, we will want to see it rolled out across further education colleges. We have also invested heavily in the skill areas where lecturers go out into industry for up to 12 weeks. When they are there, they carry out a major piece of work for the company. We have shown that that work is sustained. Therefore, when the lecturer returns, the contact with the company is retained. Students benefit because the lecturer will translate what he or she has learned back into the classroom. We have extended that year on year, and now up to 40 lecturers every year go out into industry for up to 12 weeks. That is additional to colleges' investment for lecturers going out. We have also extended the scheme to allow technicians to return to industry because technical staff support the lecturers.

63.

I am delighted that NIBEP has extended into further education, and we look forward to the results of the pilot work.

64.

Dr Davison: In response to the recommendation, we have increased its funding for 2002-03 by around £350,000. I do not have the figures to hand, but I believe that we have also bid for additional resources in the spending review. We recognise its central importance in the system.

65.

Mr Carrick: Perhaps I might return to Mrs Bell. Will the development become an integral part of the ethos of further education?

66.

Mrs Bell: Absolutely. For a long time further education was disadvantaged by its not being part of NIBEP, since the latter had built up such strong relationships with local employers. Colleges were not part of that, and it is important that they take part. We are keen to see entrepreneurship become an integral part of a young person's curriculum. They can learn about aspects of it through activities provided for them by NIBEP.

67.

Dr Adamson: Perhaps I might direct you to recommendation 28, which deals with the continuous monitoring and evaluation of New Deal. It mentions employment outcomes and cost-effective planning. As a former chairman of an ACE provider programme, I was disappointed by New Deal from its inception. I gave it a chance, but I still feel it is failing the long-term unemployed, especially those with multiple barriers to employment. How does the Department propose to address the problem?

68.

Mr Caher: New Deal is still a relatively new programme. The programme for people who are over 25 years of age, which caters for the long-term unemployed, has only been in place since November 1998. It is fairly young, and we are changing it as much as possible. It has had an effect on the long-term unemployed, and the latest statistics show a 73% decrease in the claimant count for that group since the introduction of the programme for 25 to 49 year-olds. Everyone on New Deal 25+ is long-term unemployed. They have all been unemployed for at least 18 months, and in many cases for far longer. The average person on New Deal 25+ has been unemployed for eight years. If they find employment, that is a great success.

69.

However, we continue to try to improve the programme. We carried out large-scale consultation in 2000-01 and introduced an enhanced New Deal 25+ in April 2001. It is still bedding in, since our providers, personal advisers and even the participants must come to terms with the new rules and regulations. Although it has not been evaluated formally, anecdotal evidence shows that improvements have been made and that participants are happier with the new arrangements.

70.

Everyone agreed that the intensive activity period of 13 weeks was simply not long enough, so that has been doubled and short, accredited courses have been introduced from which people can gain qualifications. Improvements have been introduced whereby they can move onto the employer subsidy alternative after one of the other options. An employment history and experience allow them to take advantage of the employer subsidy, and we have found that very effective. We continue to make improvements and to keep tabs on various pilots run in Great Britain. The New Deal has had an effect, and we are continuing to make changes to make it even more effective.

71.

Dr Adamson: I know that the old ACE programme has provided us with at least five Assembly Members. Perhaps New Deal will provide us with more. When will the employability task force's action plan be ready? How will the work be addressed?

72.

Mr Caher: It is being drafted as we speak, but the Minister is keen to get it right rather than meet a deadline, although I know she has her deadlines in mind. It is being drafted and redrafted continuously.

73.

Ms McWilliams: A major part of our inquiry was the operation of New Deal and any proposals for change. We took evidence from one man who had been through New Deal and who had many concerns about it. I have since met him in my constituency office. He is working his way around the system trying to find a course on plumbing. He cannot find such a course. That is an issue that should be examined, because it speaks volumes about the inquiry into skills. This man is ready and desperate to find employment, but he keeps coming up against barriers. He has been through New Deal and decided to retrain, yet he cannot find anything in the college in this skill area.

74.

I am not sure what the timeline is on the proposals for 18 to 24 year-olds. However, you have had several evaluations and there are proposals for October, when you hope to address this concern. Do you have any idea what the proposals will be?

75.

Mr Caher: They are currently with the Minister for implementation later this year. I cannot go into the details. However, the proposals result from evaluations and consultation with employers, participants on New Deal and our personal advisers.

76.

Ms McWilliams: If you cannot give us the solutions, will you tell us about the problems?

77.

Mr Caher: Evaluations have shown that the employer's subsidy is the most successful part of New Deal. We should try to get more people involved with that, and to this end we are trying to make it more flexible. However, not everyone is work ready and it would be counterproductive for us to send people to employers without training and work experience. We are trying to get work experience and qualifications for people first, and then add on the employer's subsidy. We are trying to get employers more involved. We are taking the lessons from the evaluation and trying to build it into the policy.

78.

Dr Davison: I am stunned that someone cannot find a plumbing course, since construction is one of the key skill areas identified to draw down more funding. Perhaps, Ms McWilliams, you and Mrs Bell could discuss how to chase that up.

79.

Ms McWilliams: It is helpful that the same man gave evidence to the Committee. It may be useful for us to talk about what happens after people have completed New Deal and are on their own again, as he is. Can you tell us something about the personal assistance?

80.

Mr Caher: We recognised that the personal advisers required more training because New Deal is complicated. There are seven different New Deals, each with its own eligibility rules, and it is difficult for the advisers to keep up. Therefore we have four dedicated trainers who go all over Northern Ireland training the personal advisers. That has been very helpful and it will continue. We have also contacted all the statutory and non-statutory agencies that deal with people with multiple barriers, such as the Northern Ireland Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders (NIACRO) and the Simon Community. We are trying to form greater liaisons with the agencies, so that our advisers have an expert to go to for advice if they have a problem. We do not expect them to be social workers - that would be unfair. However, they must be guided when advising people. That has happened and will be increased.

81.

Ms McWilliams: Does anyone keep a watching brief on the vacancies in job markets? The man who gave evidence makes many phone calls about vacancies, and is often told that the job should not be in the job market any more as it is already filled.

82.

Mr Caher: It is up to the manager of the job centre and the staff to ensure that that does not happen.

83.

Ms McWilliams: It has happened to more than one person, and it is causing dissatisfaction.

84.

Mr Caher: I understand that, and it should not happen.

85.

Ms Mc Williams: It happens quite frequently that the vacancies in the job market are outdated.

86.

Dr Davison: If you identify the job centres where this happens, we will pursue it.

87.

Mrs Nelis: Further to points raised by Monica McWilliams, the Committee's recommendation 28 is that the Department consider other training schemes that would better address the issue of equal opportunities. That could relate to a place such as Derry - and thank you for sending the statistics. Unemployment is at 13%, so there are very few jobs to go round. New Deal places people with employers. Have any other training schemes been considered?

88.

Mr Caher: Focus for Work was introduced last year, and although these things take time, it is gaining ground. It is open to people who are in receipt of benefit and also to those who are not; it is voluntary and there is no compulsion. It can help people with further training and introduce them to the job club network, which has been extended. It is a preventive measure to help people before they drift into long-term unemployment. We hope that it will be effective, but it is early days for the programme.

89.

Mrs Nelis: Returning to recommendation 27 on modern apprenticeships, the Committee passed on to the Department concerns raised by the principal of the North West Institute of Higher and Further Education, who is unhappy about the modern apprenticeship scheme. There was a review, but I do not know how that has affected the Department's policy for the evaluation of modern apprenticeships. Has the Department any plans to carry out its own evaluation with remedial action?

90.

Mr Scott: On foot of a major review of modern apprenticeships throughout Great Britain, an evaluation of the programme as it operates in Northern Ireland has just been commissioned. Northern Ireland did not follow Great Britain slavishly; we have had our own system of modern apprenticeships. I have twice met college principals to discuss our approach and have taken their concerns on board. The review is under way but is not yet complete. We will do something in advance of the evaluation because, as was said earlier, we cannot always wait for a full evaluation.

91.

We do not always agree with the concerns of further education but we recognise them. They centre on the fact that modern apprenticeships require an employer. That reflects Monica McWilliams's point about the plumber. Quite often some of the learning and skills teaching required can be obtained, but it is not possible to break into the job because of the way in which apprenticeships are set up. However, we are examining that.

92.

At present the upper age limit for apprenticeships is 25, and we provide funding until that age. That too is being examined, because certain sectors of industry might be willing to train older people in particular skills. There is a wide range of issues to address in apprenticeships. Furthermore, the possibility that the apprenticeship approach might apply to lower skill levels - NVQ level 2, rather than level 3 - is under investigation.

93.

Employer-led apprenticeships are the main concern of colleges. Those have provided successful results. The ongoing argument, however, is that not everyone can be accepted for them. The colleges feel that those programmes provide insufficient funding. We have taken that on board, are examining the funding mechanisms, and are discussing the wider issue of 16 to 19 year olds with Catherine Bell. In the autumn we hope to produce an approach to modern apprenticeships which will complement our future approach to Jobskills. It is to be hoped that in working with colleges, we will get it right.

94.

Mrs Nelis: How are employers monitored?

95.

Mr Scott: There are three ways of doing that. Employers are required to carry out and record an internal assessment of those on modern apprenticeships, and the NVQ-awarding bodies carry out external assessment. The Education and Training Inspectorate and others help us to determine the quality of input to the apprenticeship programme.

96.

To date we have had no real problems with the quality of input and output to and from modern apprenticeships. They have grown quickly of late. There are now over 5,000 young people in employment on modern apprenticeship programmes, which is a huge advance. We must ensure that the quality of that growth is sustained.

97.

The Chairperson: I have several questions about recommendations 1 and 2, which relate to essential skills. As well as the report, your consultation document places great emphasis on qualifications in foundation key skills at entry level. Can you go into more detail about the characteristics of those qualifications? In recommendation 2, you identify the workplace as a crucial area for delivering essential skills. How will that be achieved?

98.

Mrs Bell: The old basic skills qualifications were fragmented and had no real perceived value. We are trying to develop a strategy in which essential skills qualifications can be accessed at entry level and will have value. There will be a seamless progression from entry level to key skills at level 1, because key skills at levels 2 and 3 are valued. A-level students take key skills at level 3. If the essential skills qualifications can feed into key skills, the stigma will be removed and a ladder of progression is provided.

99.

We know that we must get employers on board. We have funded at least eight projects with employers, some of which involve employers working together in consortiums with councils or colleges. The purpose of the funding is to look for innovative ways of developing essential skills in the workplace. The pilot phase runs until the end of August 2002, when it will be evaluated with a view to inclusion in the action plan in September. However, we realise that employers are crucial. It is to be hoped that they will champion the initiative and lead the way. We have spoken to the Confederation of British Industry (CBI) and the Institute of Directors (IOD), and Mr Scott has spoken to chambers of commerce about the importance of their involvement. A promotional campaign will also be targeted at employers.

100.

Mr Scott: I have been following workforce development initiatives in the UK. In his pre-Budget statement last autumn, the Chancellor of the Exchequer talked about workforce development, after which the Cabinet Office published a comprehensive paper on the subject. In his most recent Budget statement, the Chancellor announced pilot schemes for basic skills learning in the workplace up to NVQ level 2 or equivalent. Approximately £30 million was invested in those pilot schemes.

101.

Alongside that announcement, the Treasury published a paper on workplace learning at the lower level. The pilot schemes will test the idea of people being given time off to learn basic skills up to NVQ level 2. Employers will be compensated at a particular rate for that time off. From reading the papers, it would seem that that is being tested to see whether a tax credit system to compensate employers would work. If that happens, it becomes a UK issue. If it takes the form of a grant, then the matter is devolved. We will watch that carefully to see what transpires. We will learn much from the English experience.

102.

The Chairperson: We sincerely hope that it is a tax credit because then it does not have additional costs. However, if it is a grant we have the option of taking it up, but we have to pay for it.

103.

Mr Scott: It depends on whether you see yourself as a centralist or a devolutionist.

104.

The Chairperson: That is a good point, but the bottom line is that it is out of our hands. I would like to ask you about recommendations 10 and 14, which are related to further education. Recommendation 10 is about centres of excellence at further education colleges. Invest Northern Ireland is targeting about 20 centres of excellence for inward investment and economic activities. How will that be married with your development in further education? There should be some harmony between the two.

105.

Dr Davison: It is not just on the further education side, it is also on the higher education side. Under the funding from the Industrial Research and Technology Unit (IRTU), several centres of excellence have also been developed at universities. We want to get into discussion with Invest Northern Ireland about those matters. We have awaited its gestation with interest, but it has only been up and running since 1 April. We will discuss those issues and a raft of others soon.

106.

Mrs Bell: The inspectorate examined the centres of excellence that were established after the last round. It produced an incredibly positive report, and the spin-off for attracting employers to work with colleges has been phenomenal. That is why we are going out with a second bid, but this time it is targeted specifically at construction and the built environment, where we do not have any centres of excellence, and software engineering. We have done much work on software engineering with the colleges.

107.

The Chairperson: We will move on to recommendation 14, which concerns the extension of the Assembly Ombudsman's remit to include further education colleges.

108.

Dr Davison: We accept the basis of that recommendation, which is that in cases of real difficulty involving governing bodies we need some form of recourse to a third party. We are bringing together the unions, governors and managers to see what would be the most appropriate arrangements to deal with those issues. When the discussion takes place we will see whether the Ombudsman or something else is recommended.

109.

Mrs Bell: I spoke to the union this morning in order to start the process, and letters have been sent out to the colleges.

110.

Ms McWilliams: Another concern was equal opportunity issues that were raised by New Deal compared to ACE. However, Focus for Work is in there. Does that address some of those issues?

111.

Mr Caher: Anyone can apply for Focus for Work, and you do not have to be on any benefit. However, if women returners want to join New Deal they can do so, and they simply have to register for jobseeker's allowance. They do not even have to meet the eligibility criteria. We have tried to tackle it in two ways. We have tried to make New Deal more accessible, and we also have the new programme for people such as women returners.

112.

Ms McWilliams: Is that working?

113.

Mr Caher: It is early days, but it appears to be working.

114.

Ms McWilliams: We have a figure of 2,000 applicants.

115.

Mr Caher: It is very early days, and it is voluntary.

116.

Mrs Nelis: I was disappointed that no one from the community and voluntary sector was included in the Minister's press announcement when she was requisitioning appointments for the governing bodies. I wrote to her about that.

117.

Mrs Bell: The constitution of the governing bodies is based on the Further Education (Northern Ireland) Order 1997. When the legislation was made, it was felt that the education and library boards would represent the community and voluntary sectors. We have received several representations about governing bodies, which is why we gave an undertaking to review governance arrangements. This matter will be included in the review.

118.

Mr Dallat: When will the individual learning accounts (ILAs) that were suspended be replaced? Will that be done in a way that will target the people who will benefit most?

119.

Mr Scott: As you know from recent statements and answers from the Minister in the Assembly, the Programme for Government sets out a target of replacing the ILAs by September, and we are keen to meet that target. The Minister is also keen to ensure that whatever we introduce to replace the ILAs will target those with learning disadvantages or social disadvantages that are linked to learning problems.

120.

The Chairperson: Thank you. The discussion has been helpful. We may require written clarification of a few points, but you have covered many of our questions.