COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry

Ordered by The Committee for Employment and Learningto be printed 20 September 2001

Report 01/01R

VOLUME 3 - MINUTES OF EVIDENCE RELATING TO THE REPORT

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Construction Industry Training Board

Northern Ireland Textiles and Clothing Training Council                   

Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation and Transfer System         

Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment                   

Bombardier Aerospace, Shorts plc     

Qualifications and Curriculum Authority      

Galen Holdings Ltd               

Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment -
Skills and Industry Division        

Hastings Hotels Group          

Northern Ireland Economic Council         

Craigavon Borough Council                   

North American Coal Company Organisation  

Moy Park Ltd

Letterkenny Institute of Technology   

Women’s Training Enterprise and Childcare    

Newry & Mourne District Council       

Forfás        

Education & Training Inspectorate

Queen’s University of Belfast        

Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership  

Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment -
Further Education and Learning Policy Division.     

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 8 February 2001

Members present:

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Mr Hay

Mr Hutchinson

Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:

Mr A McMullen                        )

Mr W Gillespie                        ) Construction Industry Training Board

Mrs L Wallis                        )

1582.

The Chairperson: Thank you for attending and for providing the written submission on the workings of the training system. I am aware of the strategic importance of the construction sector. It is one of the largest sectors in the Northern Ireland economy and for some years it has been one of the most rapidly growing. The Committee is keen to hear your views on the skills’ situation, the demand for labour and any shortages of labour. It will be interesting to hear your views on what the Assembly and the Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment Committee can do to deal with that situation.

1583.

Mr Gillespie: I will explain the Construction Industry Training Board’s (CITB) position in relation to education and training and then my colleagues and I will endeavour to answer your questions.

1584.

CITB board members are accountable to the Minister who appointed them and to the construction employers within the scope of CITB who provide the money to fund its activities.

1585.

CITB is a statutory body tasked with ensuring adequate training for those working in, or intending to work in, the industry, which employs about 43,000 people. We, as a board, have a budget of about £3 million, 80% of which is raised by a statutory levy on employers. The balance is raised largely from the sale of our services to people who are not in the scope of the CITB. As a sector representative body the CITB is the recognised source for advising on and facilitating the training needs of the industry.

1586.

Over the years we have established strong links and excellent working relationships with the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA), which is our sponsoring Government Department, and also with the various national training construction organisations on matters of mutual interest. In addition, we are now members of the UK-wide forum for National Training Organisations (NTOs) in construction. In November 2000 I attended my first meeting of that forum in London, and recently we had a joint meeting with Forás Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS), the construction industry training committee, in Dublin. Our entire board met the entire committee in Dublin and we identified some areas of common interest, which we plan to address together.

1587.

We fully appreciate the co-operation of other organisations, and there is no doubt that the industry in general benefits from that sort of strategic link. We are currently addressing some priority issues on behalf of the industry which coincide, not surprisingly, with the focus of the Committee’s inquiry into education and training. The issue of the funding and provision of new entrant training to meet industry’s current and future needs is particularly highlighted at this time, as well as the issues of skills forecasting and skills and labour shortages, given Northern Ireland’s unique haemorrhaging of craft skills across the border to the Republic.

1588.

Over the past five years we have experienced an increase in the number of new entrants to the industry. The training network as a whole is currently recruiting 1,700 young people annually into construction trainee­ships. However, the increased numbers coming into the system appear to concentrate on carpentry and joinery with the result that recruitment into other occupations, in particular wet trades such as bricklaying and plastering, is not meeting the industry’s needs. That is resulting in severe shortages in these areas. The CITB estimates that it will need to recruit about 9,500 new entrants over the next five years to meet the industry’s needs. We are actively considering how best this can be achieved in partnership with the Government and the further education sector. We believe that we must target not just school leavers but also older entrants who require retraining or reskilling. We are also actively encouraging more young women to join the industry at all levels.

1589.

We need skills outside the traditional manual areas, for example, in supervision and management. Traditionally, the source for these occupations has been tradesmen. However, as the industry continues to fail to recruit sufficient numbers, the availability of experienced tradesmen to rise up the ladder will diminish. This has implications for the calibre of new recruits to the industry at supervisory and management level. They are now coming from the ranks of building and civil engineering graduates.

1590.

The CITB offers those graduates further training in management and other skills to prepare them for their tasks. As the sector representative body for construction, the CITB supports the industry’s improving its competitiveness by identifying and responding to the training needs of the workforce and by promoting best practice. Strategically, we will continue to be the focus for construction training by developing guidance for the industry and other training providers.

1591.

We are continually strengthening and developing our relationships with various awarding and lead bodies, Government Departments and the higher and further education sector to ensure that the training needs of the industry are considered and met.

1592.

If you are agreeable, Mr Chairman, I do not propose to go any further. Rather, my colleagues and I will endeavour to address any questions or comments that the Committee has.

1593.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much, Mr Gillespie. That was extremely helpful.

1594.

Mr R Hutchinson: In paragraph 2.2 of the document you gave us you said that finding a solution to the problem of recruitment into the industry is difficult. What do you think are the major barriers to recruitment?

1595.

Mr McMullen: I think it is the image of the industry. Construction is competing for young people and many other industries are offering seemingly attractive jobs with softer skills. This is the main issue that the industry is facing.

1596.

Mr R Hutchinson: Do you have a problem with career officers in schools? Is there any difficulty there?

1597.

Mr McMullen: Not necessarily. We have a team of four careers people who work very closely with training providers, schools and colleges. We have a successful programme of job sampling, through which we encourage school children to come to our premises at Nutt’s Corner, and we hold sessions at the schools. We have a good work relationship with them, and I do not think that we have any particular problem, but we are up against many other industries, and it is a very competitive market.

1598.

Mr R Hutchinson: But do you think careers teachers in schools are au fait with what the industry offers or the type of people it needs? Are they likely to point children in other directions, than the building industry?

1599.

Mr McMullen: I think you are right, yes. I think that is the case.

1600.

Mr R Hutchinson: With regard to the shortfall of school leavers coming into the industry, is that not a problem that you need to deal with?

1601.

Mr McMullen: Yes, we do need to deal with that. I was suggesting that we are dealing with it in the way I have described.

1602.

Mr R Hutchinson: What plans do you have to deal with it?

1603.

Mr McMullen: Well, there is a lot more opport­unity for colleges to work closely with the schools. We are working with several schools where fourth and fifth year students now spend a day visiting colleges. Recently we spoke to St Peter’s in the Creggan, an all-boys school, which has developed a programme through which about 30 boys in the fourth year spend three days a week at school, one day at the North West Institute and one day doing work experience. They are young kids, and there are problems with that. So we are working on a range of ideas with the colleges and schools. We also involve employers where we can. So there is a problem, but we feel that we are addressing that in partnership.

1604.

Mr Beggs: Bricklayers and plasterers are increasingly being valued financially by employers because their skills are scarce but in demand. Has the message got through to the schools and the children that good wages can be earned by learning these particular skills? I understand that in the past they may not have been as well paid as they are at the moment, but there is very good money to be made in bricklaying and plastering now. Are trainees or apprentices given sufficient wages to attract them? How long do they have to wait until better money becomes available?

1605.

Mr McMullen: There are two parts to your question. First of all, the message is beginning to get through. This year, recruitment is up across all the main construction trades.

1606.

This year, just under 1,000 young people are training in joinery and carpentry. That is in the paper and was mentioned by Mr Gillespie in his introduction. This is a very good thing as they are very good, basic skills for construction. This year, we are only 30 or 40 people short of our projected target to meet the needs of the industry in bricklaying. You are right that bricklayers are getting a lot of money. One of the major problems is the work available in the South of Ireland at the moment. I was with my opposite number in FÁS recently. FÁS has estimated that another 81,000 people are needed in the construction industry over the next five years to meet the needs of the national development plan. The plan includes building approx­imately 60,000 new houses over the next five years. Last week, I was with my opposite number in GB. He estimates that 370,000 people are required there. When you add our 10,000 to that, it totals 460,000.

1607.

Under the current Jobskills training system, young people have a non-employed status and get a £40 a week training allowance up to NVQ level 2. The construction industry is losing good people to industries that are employing them from day one. One of our strategies is to encourage employers to work more towards employer-led modern apprenticeships, employing young people from day one. We have been talking to the T&EA about developing a strategy to encourage that over time. We believe that that is the answer. Young people have to be employed from day one, because they are attracted by a job, not a training scheme.

1608.

Mr Beggs: I can understand why there are perhaps problems with bricklaying and plastering as it is heavy and wet work, and workers can be exposed to the elements. However, can you explain why there is a shortage in the areas of plumbing and electrical work? A reasonable level of technical skills is required in those areas, and there is certainly a huge potential for apprentices to go on, after several years’ experience, to set up their own businesses. Why are there these shortages? People should be queuing up to get in.

1609.

Mr McMullen: We cannot speak about the electrical sector as it is not within our scope. However, plumbing is within our scope. The shortage in all the trades these days has really been exaggerated by the boom in the South of Ireland. It was difficult for anyone to predict how incredibly successful that boom would be, and the drain that there would be on resources in Northern Ireland. If it were not for that, we would have met the needs of the industry in Northern Ireland. Last week in the South, they were telling me that plumbers and electricians are now ringing employers looking for jobs, so perhaps there is a little hiatus at the moment.

1610.

Mr Gillespie: Our experience is that there is not such a desperate shortage of plumbers. We have just come from a meeting with our plumbing committee, and it is bang on its recruiting target for the current year. It identified the needs. Obviously there are some­times local shortages, and ups and downs, but there is nothing like the pressing problem that there is in the South.

1611.

Mr Byrne: I would like to welcome the CITB representatives. I want to know what the CITB has been doing about having better quality training for 16-year-olds who want to make a positive decision to enter the industry. I contend that the CITB has failed many young people. It has 63 staff and it should have been more proactive in the manpower planning for this industry. I want to know what you have to say about modern apprenticeships, and how much you have been involved in the designing and tailoring of these modern apprenticeships within the remit of the T& EA.

1612.

There is a crucial role to be played here for many young people if Northern Ireland’s economy and the building industry take off. It is not good enough to say that we are losing people. We have always lost people to the construction industry in London, Scotland and America.

1613.

Young people tell me that they cannot get on to a meaningful training course. They want to know where the apprenticeship is that they can join.

1614.

Mr McMullen: Mrs Wallis will take the question on modern apprenticeship.

1615.

Mrs Wallis: Industry should be involved in the framework designed for modern apprenticeships and in the design of the standards for NVQ attainment. Since I took up my current post with the CITB two years ago, we have been facilitating industry and identifying exactly what its requirements are.

1616.

We are currently consulting with all the main representative bodies to find out to what extent the modern apprenticeship frameworks are relevant to the industries’ and the sector’s needs in Northern Ireland to use to benchmark against the standards coming from Great Britain from the national training organisation and the employers.

1617.

This role is a major part of the work, which my division, strategic planning and communications, is involved in at the moment. The frameworks should be designed by industry, for industry, to enable it to get the right calibre of young person, with the right qualifications, for its production needs.

1618.

I also want to touch on the point that you made about our role in ensuring better quality training for new entrants. Since I became the head of the strategic planning and communications division in January 1999, we have worked very proactively and in partnership with the T&EA, the colleges of further and higher education, the Association of Northern Ireland Colleges and some of the independent training providers.

1619.

Our aim was to look at standard patterns of training, which would best meet the industry’s needs, rather than the training system itself, being an entity in its own right and not actually linked directly to the needs of the industry. Over the last 18 months, and indeed yesterday, we had a meeting with T&EA to see how we can make progress on that to make sure that the pattern of training is somehow standardised and that we have the sort of meaningful training programmes that young people have been asking you for.

1620.

There is always the issue of training for specialist occupational areas for which there is little or no provision in Northern Ireland. That tends to be dealt with by the CITB in two ways. Through our direct training unit, and as a training provider of last resort, we run programmes for the specialist sector. More often, we link up in partnership with a training provider such as the Belfast Institute to run courses for the six or 10 young people that, for example, the roof slating and tiling sector needs to meet its specific requirements. That is a tailored programme with a framework.

1621.

Mr Gillespie: I have been in the building industry for 40 years. I recall the time when the apprenticeship system was very simple. You went along, joined a company, spent five years there, maybe went to the technical college one day a week and got your City and Guilds certificate. That was a well-trodden path and a well-recognised way of achieving.

1622.

Nowadays, we are so hamstrung by funding mechanisms that instead of funding being tailored to suit the needs of the training, we are trying to skew the training to suit the funding. That is the wrong way round.

1623.

Mr McMullen: Mr Byrne has hit issues in a number of areas. We do not disagree with what you are saying at all. Over the last two or three years we have endeavoured to address these issues. However, we have to bring the employers with us. It is our job to encourage the adequate training of those in the industry and those intending to be employed in the industry.

1624.

I was a builder for 25 years and I remember the days when you took on an apprenticeship on day one, went to the technical college and did a City and Guilds certificate. Over the last 10 or 15 years, all that good work has been dismantled. National Vocational Qualifications (NVQs) were introduced. They are bureaucratic; there are funding issues, and we could tell the Committee some horrendous tales about the quality of training.

1625.

The way forward is to work in partnership with the colleges. Although the training centres in Northern Ireland did a good job, particularly for the construction industry, a problem arose when the colleges were pitted against the training centres. In Omagh, for example, there was a training centre and a college. The college may have had half a class and the training centre half a class. Now there is the opportunity to run one good class of, for example, 20 bricklayers. The merger has been good.

1626.

The chairman of the board, senior staff and I have contacted all the college principals. We are going forward in partnership. We know that the entire system cannot be changed. Yesterday, however, we met Mr Tom Scott from the T&EA to examine ways by which to bring everyone involved closer together; to involve employers at an earlier stage; to make work experience meaningful; to integrate key skills with training; and to ensure that the colleges are focused on practical training. The points that you raised are valid. We have worked exceptionally hard over the last couple of years. It takes a long time to achieve, but we are beginning to see light at the end of the tunnel — everyone is starting to work in the right direction.

1627.

I will finish on the point made about modern apprenticeships. It is an important issue. Without a shadow of a doubt, employer-led modern apprenticeships are the way forward.

1628.

Mr Byrne: I appreciate the honesty of your answers and the Committee is not in conflict with that. However, the Committee would like to see a stronger case made for the type of modern apprenticeship required. Should it be three years long or should it comprise one year’s in-training and two years on the job? Which is it? What standard of competency is needed, for example, after three years? My honest opinion, as someone who knows something about industry, is that it must be three years long. There must be lobbying to ensure that there is adequate funding support for those employers in the industry who want to take on trainees.

1629.

Mr Gillespie: We could give a good presentation on that very subject which would answer all the Committee’s concerns. However, we cannot do that in the timescale available this afternoon.

1630.

The Chairperson: Maybe in the future.

1631.

Mr Dallat: Paragraph 5.8.3 states that there are no entry criteria for Jobskills and traineeships. Paragraph 5.9 discusses key skills and suggests that they should be taught in school. How much time is taken up addressing skills, which should have been covered at school, but have not been? The Committee has focused on this. Evidence provided by other witnesses on basic literacy and numeracy has been disturbing. If there is a problem, tell us about it.

1632.

Mr McMullen: This is a vital point as well. There is no doubt that the modern apprenticeship requires these key skills. A good tradesman needs those key skills in order to do the job. We speak on behalf of the employers, and they are disappointed that the 16-year-olds presented to them do not already have these key skills. Training providers say that they have to use the funds available for apprenticeships to teach people skills that they should already have. The funding is not being used to teach practical skills.

1633.

Employers have told us that they want bricklayers on their sites who can lay one brick on top of another, and bricklayers are paid well to do that. Employers ask us if it is really necessary for bricklayers to be good at reading and writing. We reply that it is — they have to read plans and specifications. That is the dilemma. Colleges tell us that there is only so much money in the pot and only so many hours in the day and, therefore, they do not want to introduce entry criteria — although there are entry criteria for plumbers and electricians. Colleges would be in a better position to address key skills if we recommended that minimum entry criteria be introduced.

1634.

The head of our careers department, Mr John Gault, gave me this example. Imagine if you were in a class and a wee lad put his hand up and asked "Please sir, what exams do I need to become a bricklayer?" If the answer is "None", he will down tools at the age of 14 and do no more studying for two years. He will tell his parents that he does not need to do any studying or homework to become a tradesman.

1635.

So we want to say, for example, "We recommend that you get a grade C at least." Our approach is to recommend rather than lay down the law. It is open access, and although everyone should be able to follow the trade he wants to, there has to be a balance. It is a matter of resources.

1636.

Mr Dallat: How much of your vocational training time is taken up dealing with basic skills — areas that should have been addressed already?

1637.

Mr McMullen: In "off the job" training, the trainers have to address the issues of practical skills, the underpinning of knowledge or theory, NVQ assessment, which is a horrendous bureaucratic nightmare, and now Key Skills. I would not be able to give you a percentage right away, but certainly there is conflict. The employers say that they want practical skills to be taught because that is what they will be paying people for. They understand that other skills are needed, but there is a conflict among the four areas in terms of the allocation of resources.

1638.

Mrs Carson: This is something dear to the Committee’s heart. I notice that page 8 of your brochure mentions facilities for new entrants, recruitment, retention, and teenagers being encouraged to stay on at school. What you have said has probably partly answered my question already. A lot of teenagers are being pushed into academic achievement, possibly beyond their capabilities. The other thing that Mr Gillespie spoke about was the issue of graduates. Were you talking about them turning to manual work or to industry?

1639.

Mr Gillespie: I was saying that, in the past, most of our people who became managers started off as tradesmen. Now because there is pressure on tradesmen, and also because they are so well paid, they do not want to be managers. Site managers now tend to be graduates, coming from university with a civil engineering or building degree, and we at CITB try to bolt some practical training onto their academic knowledge in order to turn them into site managers.

1640.

Mrs Carson: So really the industry is losing out at that end by getting people coming in with "head knowledge" but no "hand knowledge"?

1641.

Mr Gillespie: Yes.

1642.

Mr McMullen: Yes, to a degree. There are some very good young graduates, both men and women. In fact I presented an Investors in People award last night to a construction company, and the principal of that company was complimenting a young graduate who had been with him for six months. He had a degree in building from the University of Ulster, and the company principal thanked the CITB because we had grant aided the year out for that student. The builder had taken that student on during his year out, and, on realising how good he was, employed him. We are trying to encourage that as a way for graduates to come through, which is beginning to work.

1643.

I will now return to the first part of your question about young people being encouraged to stay on at school. I was very concerned about that and recently visited a number of schools and spoke to principals and vice-principals. They say that the pressure is coming from parents who are saying "We want them to go to university" and "Any course will do". Also, according to the principals, kids see construction as a hard, physical job, and children seem to be a bit softer these days, preferring keyboard skills to construction. So there is a job to be done in that respect.

1644.

However, we have some great successes in Northern Ireland. We recently had a carpenter who achieved a diploma of excellence in Montreal at the Worlds Skills Competition. His marks in carpentry were fourth in the world, so the system in Northern Ireland is producing very good kids. I know that the Chairman here has a particular interest in that area. It is not all about winning medals, but it shows that the young people of Northern Ireland, with the system here, are capable of achieving world-class skills. Our general view is that the system needs tweaked, but it is not too bad.

1645.

The key resources in Northern Ireland for training young people are the instructors and lecturers in the colleges. They are the key people, and we have some tremendous instructors and lecturers in Northern Ireland in all the colleges. People who formerly worked in training centres are now working in the colleges. That is the key resource. You can get a building or a shed anywhere, you can get some bricks, but it is more difficult to get instructors who have the desire and ability to teach.

1646.

Mrs Carson: You said in your key targets for last year and this year that you wanted to see a 10% increase in the number of women in the industry. Have you met, or will you meet, that target?

1647.

Mrs Wallis: Unfortunately, the industry at all levels — trade level and higher and further education level — has very small numbers of women. The Department issued some statistics recently for the last training year that showed that only 2% to 3% of the intake to higher and further education were female. For us to increase that by 10% would only require a couple more women on each programme, and it would be seen as a success.

1648.

In November 1999 we launched an initiative called "Women into Construction". It is an awareness initiative that is trying to say to young women in secondary schools that there are opportunities in areas such as painting and decorating, as well as in the technical and professional areas, that they can go into if they so wish. We are very much at the awareness stage, but we hope to build on that. We hope that the intakes in September 2001 will reflect the good work of our careers people in job sampling and career taster days in partnership with the colleges. I use the term "conversion rate". We want to convert that awareness and enthusiasm into actual participation in some of the programmes.

1649.

Mr McMullen: We have looked at this very carefully. There has to be a sense of realism. We had a women’s union committee with us recently, representing a group in west Belfast. We asked them what the issues were? Was it about welfare; strength; what? One of them gave a really good answer. She said "Have you ever tried washing the dishes with a child in your arms?" In other words, the big barrier to women in construction is not strength but male chauvinism. It is the attitude of men on sites that is the biggest barrier. It is hard enough for young men on sites. These guys are pretty macho men. That is the key problem. We have to be realistic about the problems.

1650.

Mrs Carson: So you have not achieved the 10% target?

1651.

Mrs Wallis: Realistically, we have not. It is much too early in our initiative.

1652.

Mr Hay: Mr Byrne touched on a point that is fairly close to all our hearts. Bureaucracy has crept into the whole issue of training in Northern Ireland. Gone are the days when you did three or five years and produced some of the best tradesmen that Northern Ireland ever saw. They did not just work here; they went further afield.

1653.

I know that you are not responsible for electrical engineering, but I know more about that than about any other subject. One thing that I have noticed, especially in relation to electrical engineering, and even in some plumbing companies, is that once the young chap or girl has completed his training, the issue arises of paying that young person the proper salary. I received a deputation of young people employed by bona fide companies in my city that would be vying for fairly major Government contracts; they are not obliged to pay a young person the required rate. That puts young people off, and they look for another avenue in life, after going through the training and getting the qualifications. Companies are not paying the proper salary yet they are getting millions of pounds worth of Government contracts.

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