COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

1654.

I can name at least five or six bona fide electrical companies in my city that refuse to pay the rate. They are using unemployment in the city, because they know that a young person will find it difficult getting a job anywhere else after two or three years of an apprenticeship. They know the young person cannot leave and will have to stick with the firm. There are a few firms that pay the bona fide rate.

1655.

Payment of the bona fide salary rate is not enforced. This is a problem when a young person has decided on a career and finds himself squeezed by an employer who says "You can either work for me or go on the dole." The matter should be addressed across the industry. It is not happening in electrical engineering. Many young people say to me "I have gone through training, I have qualifications, I have been with the company for three years but I cannot get the salary to which I am entitled".

1656.

Mr Gillespie: I do not want to appear as though I am ducking this issue, but the CITB is not involved in setting or enforcing rates of wages. Our job is training. We look at the effect of pay on training, and we have been encouraging employers and unions, through their joint councils, to pay a decent rate of wages. Wages have risen considerably. In my experience, if I had not paid somebody at least the basic rate, I would have had no workers. The competition for employees in my area is such that nobody would work for me unless I paid at least the basic rate, and in most cases more. This problem that you have mentioned may be a local one, as it does not generally apply. We support paying the proper rate, and in most cases the trade unions have a remedy. There are six trade union representatives on our board, and they would be keen to learn of any employer who was not honouring wages and training contracts.

1657.

Mr McMullen: A typical Jobskills trainee leaves school in June, goes on summer holiday for two months and then goes to a training provider on a Monday morning in September. He does a week of induction training, goes to the college for two or three days, and by the Wednesday or Thursday of the second week, he is out on work experience getting £40 a week plus a travel allowance. He works in this pattern for a while, but he is still only a schoolboy on a building site. The builder feels sorry for him and slips him £30. The boy has been in the industry for two weeks and he gets £30 in his back pocket, plus a £40 training allowance and possibly £20 travel expenses. That totals £90 a week.

1658.

He works like this until he gets NVQ level 2. Once he has NVQ level 2, he has to be employed. He goes back to the employer on Monday morning with the NVQ level 2 and says "I now have to be employed because I have NVQ level 2. I also want a rise because I am in my second year and have an NVQ level 2." The employer has to find perhaps £120 after paying the trainee £30 the previous Friday. This is a funding problem that we need to address.

1659.

Mrs Wallis and I met Mr Tom Scott of the T&EA yesterday to discuss the encouragement of employing trainees after at least 26 weeks. After the 26 weeks, the £40 training allowance becomes a grant that the employer gets. The grant culture in Northern Ireland is one that we would not encourage, and we are trying to move away from it. The aim is to move employers back to the days of employing trainees from at least their first day.

1660.

The other problem is that schoolboys and schoolgirls - schoolboys in particular, as I have previously mentioned - are going onto building sites with no skills. It is no wonder that employers are saying to us "These young people are hopeless. They have no tools or training, and they have been in college for only a week before they are allowed on the site to do work experience." We advocate - and we ask the Department to consider this - bringing young people into the construction industry from school and giving them six months solid training in order for them to learn the basic skills.

1661.

Employers will say at the end of the six months, "That young person has at least some basic skills, so we will pay him some money." They will pay them the recommended first-year wage. It would be good if they could get financial assistance for on-the-job training, but at least they will be productive. However, as school children on work experience, which is all they currently are -

1662.

Mr Hay: Training at the moment is driven too much by finances.

1663.

The Chairperson: We have the next set of witnesses waiting outside. I have two more people to ask questions, Mrs Nelis and Mr Carrick. Can you make your questions as short as possible?

1664.

Mrs Nelis: Yes. I shall not go into any preamble, though I could, for we have not talked about hairdressers, only about plumbers and so on, and there is a gender problem. I wish to talk about assessment, as it is important and you give a great deal of attention to it. You are concerned about the risk that candidates who have been awarded NVQs may not be competent to fulfil the needs of industry. What is your primary concern in that respect? Do you feel the issue will be addressed by the absorption of the training centres into the further-education colleges?

1665.

Mr McMullen: First, young people are assessed at NVQ level 2. Industry's expectations of NVQ level 2 people are too high, for they take them for the finished product. I remember the five-year apprenticeship. There is a perception in industry, because of excessive expectations, that they are not competent.

1666.

City and Guilds, as part of the awarding body, says that assessment should be more work-based and that employers must take more responsibility. Ultimately, it is the employers who say who is competent. We have set standards through the NVQs and assess young people in accordance with them. Employers must take more responsibility for assessment rather than leave it to the colleges. Partnership is perhaps the way forward, but employers are reluctant to take that route, for it is a costly and bureaucratic exercise.

1667.

Mrs Nelis: May I ask you very quickly -

1668.

The Chairperson: Sorry, Mrs Nelis. We must move on. Mr Carrick's question will have to be the last.

1669.

Mr Carrick: I was very taken by Mr Gillespie's summary of how he views the situation through personal experience, and I empathise with that. It seems to be a question of access. What are your views on the progression from education, through training, to industry? Are you content, for instance, with the education curriculum? Does it properly address the issues you face in your industry?

1670.

You also mentioned the quality of training, with which you seem to be fairly content - the quality that would be available if you could get the young people and secure access to it. Would you like to comment on that progression?

1671.

Mr McMullen: I am happy to answer that. You ask if the education system is producing the people that we want. I do not believe it is. Too high a percentage cannot read, write, or count, and they are not academic­ally minded. We say that they switched off at the age of 14 when they realised they were not going down the academic route. That is why we recommend that they work a little harder at school. The education system is not producing quality young people for us, measured against very basic academic skills.

1672.

Mr Carrick: Is that a weakness in the curriculum?

1673.

Mr McMullen: I do not feel qualified to comment.

1674.

Mr Gillespie: We know of the many pressures on the education system, from which everyone wants more. One reads that there is to be more road-safety training and so on. We do not wish to venture into saying yet more should be packed into the curriculum.

1675.

Mr McMullen: We all want young people educated as broadly as possible. However, employers in Northern Ireland do not need bricklayers who speak French.

1676.

Mr Beggs: Has the modern apprenticeship pilot increased young people's motivation?

1677.

Mr McMullen: Absolutely.

1678.

The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee, I should like to thank you, Mr McMullen, Mr Gillespie and Mrs Wallis, for spending your time with us this afternoon and, indeed, for the written submission, which we shall look at carefully as part of the overall inquiry. You have struck many chords this afternoon, particularly when you said the funding system should serve rather than distort training needs. That is certainly a powerful message, and we shall take it on board.

1679.

Thank you very much. We wish you well in your continued work.

1680.

Mr Gillespie: May I make a few points? There is some good news. In March, we have our Northern Ireland regional skills competition in Newry under the aegis of the Newry and Kilkeel Institute. This is a regional competition, the winners of which go forward to a national competition. Winners at national level then go forward to an international competition. This year, we have two people from Northern Ireland going to Korea to represent the UK.

1681.

Further to that, we have succeeded in getting the UK competition to come to Ballymena from 5 June to 7 June. I strongly recommend any member of the Com­mittee who is interested in seeing good craftsmen under training to visit one or both of those competitions. You will be amazed when you see the standard of work.

1682.

Finally, we have touched on a number of points today which we have only been able to answer partly. We would love the Committee to come to Nutt's Corner. We could provide accommodation for a meeting, give you a short presentation on what CITB does and answer a number of the questions raised today in more detail.

1683.

The Chairperson: Thank you. We welcome that invitation.

1684.

Mr R Hutchinson: Can you send us the infor­mation on Newry and Ballymena?

1685.

The Chairperson: Thank you. Congratulations to those who have succeeded in that way.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 8 February 2001

Members present:

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Mr Hay

Mr R Hutchinson

Ms McWilliams

Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:

Prof B Hill      )

Mr D Lamont ) Northern Ireland Textiles and

Mr A Elliott    ) Clothing Training Council

Mr P Frazer    )

1686.

The Chairperson: You are welcome to the Committee session. Robin Newton, Clare Ennis and Michael Harris have accompanied the witnesses.

1687.

Thank you for the written submission on the clothing sector and the Committee has noted the Kurt Salmon study and report on what might be done for the future of that sector.

1688.

Mr Lamont: Gordon Parkes, the chairman of the Textiles and Clothing Training Council, is unable to attend today due to a prior commitment, but he would like his apology recorded.

1689.

Prof Hill: The report submitted to the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment dated 15 November was compiled from information from industry and academia. The Northern Ireland Textiles and Clothing Training Council (NITC²) is the representative body recognised by the Government as the training and education voice of the textile industry. Its members are representative of the various sectors with an interest in the well-being of the industry. The board's directors are from the industry, education and trade unions, and the organisation is a company limited by guarantee.

1690.

I am glad that the Chairperson recognises the importance of the textile industry, which currently employs 18,000 people and has a turnover of £944 million. Textiles account for 20% of all Northern Ireland exports so it is a major contributor to the economy. The ethos of the report, not surprisingly, is endorsed by the recent Kurt Salmon report, which was commissioned by the IDB and launched by the Enterprise, Trade and Investment Minister, Sir Reg Empey, on 21 January.

1691.

As all Committee members have a copy of the report I will not repeat what it contains. Rather, I will update the information, indicating what has happened in the last two and a half months and expand on some of the information in the report.

1692.

In development initiatives and training, in appendix 1, the objective of NITC² to become a member of the National Textiles Training Organisation (NTTO) and becoming involved with the Clothing and Allied Products Industry Training Board (CAPITB) is described. Those objectives have been met under improved existing training. We have investigated and analysed the education and training developments, and from the list of prog­rammes that we are currently running you will see that that has taken place.

1693.

The column dealing with the marketing and selling of programmes describes how NITC² developed strong links with the Training and Employment Agency and the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment. The column dealing with how NITC² developed partnerships with relevant organisa­tions shows that we do meet with the SDC, the TI and the other boards.

1694.

The final heading shows that NITC² has strong links with the universities. Not only do we have links with universities here but a delegation from NITC² has gone to the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology (UMIST) and the Bolton Institute, which are strong textile institutions. Representatives from the Bolton Institute have already been back to talk to us. By the constitution of the committee we have strong links with the University of Ulster, through myself, and the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education (BIFHE).

1695.

Appendix 3 shows a list of programmes provided by the NITC². The management development programme was launched last November but it started on Tuesday with 14 delegates and the first half-day meeting has been held. The senior management strategic programme has an agreed budget of £25,000.

1696.

The brand imaging and logistics programmes are ready to go to tender. An agreement to deliver in-company learning facilitators has been signed by NITC² and the agency.

1697.

There is no National Vocational Qualification level 4, building on levels 1 and 2, and on level 3 for manufacturing textiles. There has been a need for that and is now being developed.

1698.

The textile awareness for middle management and supervisors is a new development in the last two and a half months, and a series of half-day seminars is being developed for that. The graduate design conversion programme has been taken forward and we now have a draft proposal. We are moving on with the programmes that have been listed in the report, and other new ones.

1699.

In appendix 4 of the report we show the training needs of different companies. Companies are asking if there is a need for in-house training. This is typical of a sector made up of many small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs), with definite but disparate needs. In many cases the companies have minimal personnel, and cannot afford time for people to travel overseas. There are obviously common needs in IT, but the council is examining how the various needs of different companies can be met in a cost-effective and efficient manner. A grouping has been developed to help, under the working title of "The Threadbare Group". This is a team of well-qualified and experienced technologists and human resource personnel, and they are addressing how best to transfer the vast amount of knowledge in the industry at the minute, to the greater good of the sector.

1700.

I want to talk about the Kurt Salmon report, relating to technological innovation. There are two points to discuss. One is body scanning, something that could be useful to the industry and has links with American practices. There is also a grouping in Nottingham Trent University, under Prof Stephen Gray and we already have links with him. The other area is a computerised design and sampling facility. We are looking at establishing such a facility within the sector. To create such a resource is going to cost around £75,000, and we are looking at ways of getting funding to raise that.

1701.

Mr Hay: Your council does a lot of good work in training in the clothing industry generally in Northern Ireland. The industry has gone through a difficult period over the last number of years, right across Northern Ireland. Cheap imports have been continually coming into Northern Ireland. Companies also decide to set up overseas for cheap labour, sometimes to the great annoyance of the local labour force. How do you continue to address that, as that situation will get worse rather than better? While there may be no way to stop that practice, can anything be done to slow it down?

1702.

Mr Lamont: Obviously every company must have its own individual solution, but there are companies in the sector who most definitely see the threat - a very large threat. You are quite right in assuming that the threat is going to get larger. This year will see the end of the multifibre agreement, and, certainly, next year's quotas will be all but meaningless. There has been a seismic change - cheap imports are a big problem undoubtedly.

1703.

In the KSA Report, the IDB initiated document, they make play on Kurt Salmon's recommendation that there could perhaps be a role in using a strategic alliance in an area. With a disparity in labour rates of 80%, one just cannot compete on a head-to-head basis. You can maybe do something with a 2% to 5% disparity, otherwise it is just no contest.

1704.

In fact, Kurt Salmon has identified that strategic alliance may be the way forward. Desmonds in Derry, have used that to their advantage. Inside their own operation they have tried to identify those systems which are appropriate to Northern Ireland - fast response or high margin goods, which can still continue to be made in Northern Ireland, albeit with a bit more capital investment. However, 50% of their output now is actually manufactured abroad.

1705.

The answer probably lies in trying to meld with the problem, bend with the breeze rather than try to stand against it, because frankly it is a losing battle.

1706.

Mrs Carson: Has the industry an image problem, and how can it be redressed? How can we help you?

1707.

Mr Lamont: The industry would accept it has an image problem, but I have got to say, as you would expect me to, it is an ill-deserved image problem. It is one that perhaps has its roots and traditions in dark mills and bare-footed children. Things are slightly different now. Companies have most definitely moved with the times. Through the work of the Training Council, we have tried to put in place training schemes which offer opportunities to the industry.

1708.

Also there are other things that must be addressed. You have got to show people what you are doing. Our sister organisation, the Northern Ireland Textile Association, (NITA) is addressing that through its work with schools. Public money is used as some of those schemes are run by Growth Challenge. Money is being spent to get the message across, appearance at career fairs and things like this, but it is a difficult problem. Once these things get ingrained in peoples' consciousness it is very difficult to change it. There are companies who would love to know the answer to be perfectly frank. It is a difficult question.

1709.

Prof Hill: We have world-class companies in Northern Ireland, there is no question of that. The problem is that we do not sing enough about them. We sing about the closures and this helps create the image of a dying industry, which obviously it is not. This is where help would be welcome. Sing the praises of the companies, say that we are a vibrant industry.

1710.

Ms Carson: Is that where the Committee, or the Assembly could help you?

1711.

Mr Lamont: To be honest the problem is very difficult to crack. Every night you read in the newspaper that another textile company has closed. There would be few people encouraging children to go into the industry at present. I wish I had the answer. Apart from trying to get the message across in the ways described, and working with the schools directly to encourage children to think about the clothing and textile industry as a career, I really am not sure of the answer.

1712.

Mr Frazer: One vehicle we have for communi­cation is our sister organisation, NITA's newspaper, 'Cutting Edge'. It would help if we could circulate the paper more widely to schools. It tells of the success stories in the clothing and textile industry. The paper is under threat financially and we need to continue it because it is really our only way of communicating with the general public.

1713.

Mr R Hutchinson: Are the jobs normally quite low paid jobs? Is that a problem?

1714.

Mr Lamont: No, again that is a traditional perception. The trade has obviously had to come to grips with the minimum wage regulations, but very few companies would have actually had to take action to comply with those. I do not want to give you the idea that jobs are very well paid, but they do not, by any means, come towards the bottom of the tree, which most people would expect.

1715.

Building on from what the report would suggest, a different breed of job is coming through now. It is a more high calibre job in terms of logistics and picking up strategic alliances. For example, if some of a firm's production is to be located in the more remote corners of the world, then it would need people to handle that. There would be the need for higher calibre jobs, not necessarily in production, but in, as I say, areas such as logistics and contract management. A different type of person with a higher calibre of education will be needed to do such jobs. The scenery is changing as we speak. There is no doubt about that.

1716.

Mr Byrne: Of all of the delegations we have had, your industry is probably the one that is under the greatest threat. Obviously, certain parts of the world have got a high fashion textile image, Italy being one of them. I would like to ask Prof Hill if he sees any future in Northern Ireland trying to develop some sort of higher value added textile industry. Are we still only producing textiles at a particular stage in the cycle and is there any co-ordination between research, development, design, and marketing? Have we only been nipping into a particular segment of a particular industry, and has it purely been in the production segment, where the margins have always been traditionally very thin?

1717.

Finally, textiles are very important to those of us who come from the north-west. Desmonds have a factory in Omagh and they employ about 500 people. They have another factory called Naturelle in Omagh, which employs 200 people. Herdmans, in Sion Mills, employs 1,200 while Adria, in Strabane, employs 1,000. Please forgive me for being particularly concerned about the whole state of the industry and its implications for employment. How much co-ordination is there between the textile employers? Is there a proper forum, or do they go their own ways, and as a result do not benefit from the sort of cluster type synergy, which applies to the other industries we heard about earlier?

1718.

Prof Hill: There is a great deal of that. I shall talk about the design element. We have higher value-added products in Northern Ireland and world-class companies in the clothing sector. It is vitally important that we talk about these companies and let the big, bad world know that they are out there and doing things. We can improve and broaden our base, and that will be part and parcel of the work of the training council. We must build on the companies we have.

1719.

Mr Byrne: Do you only have desktop design in your university faculty, or must we develop a stronger faculty of textiles covering production, design and marketing?

1720.

Prof Hill: The school of textiles and fashion design is in the faculty of art and design. I am a textile technologist, and part of my role is to teach the technology to textile design students, so they spend part of their time studying technology. As far as textile technology per se is concerned, there is only limited teaching - not only in Northern Ireland, but in Ireland as a whole. This is something which we are trying to address by looking at the colleges and universities in England, examining ways to link up with them and from that source find the technologists of the future for us to train. It may always be difficult to persuade enough organisations to run courses in textile technology in the Northern Ireland further and higher education system.

1721.

Mr Lamont: I should like to build on that and address certain points not covered in Prof Hill's answer. The major players in Northern Ireland are large, world-class companies, and you mentioned a number. One of the difficulties for the sector is that there is a great raft of companies of modest size, and therefore modest means. They are probably under the greatest threat. Companies such as Herdmans Ltd and Desmond & Sons Ltd are sufficiently large to make their way, but the smaller companies can be a problem. They represent a particular task for the council.

1722.

We have a healthy trade organisation. In the first stage it was the Central Council for the Linen Industry, before widening its remit to become the Northern Ireland Textile Association. Under that umbrella, there is an entire satellite network of committees, sub-­committees and other associated bodies linked through NITA to provide some form of co-ordination. It could always be improved, but I would not underestimate the present degree of co-operation. The Northern Ireland Textile and Clothing Training Council is both formally and informally linked to NITA. Therefore, if we have a problem which goes beyond training, we can link to whatever is appropriate through NITA. The image would be linked to training in particular.

1723.

Mrs Nelis: I worked in a shirt factory in my early life. The shirt industry was the economic backbone of Derry, where I come from, for 100 years, and its decline has had a dramatic effect on the city's economy.

1724.

Even when people diverted into other aspects of the textile industry, it did not work. In the last few years we have had about 3,000 job losses in the manufacture of shirts, jeans, underwear, uniforms - all women-centred, of course. I am sure you are well versed in this. I, as an elected representative, was bitterly disappointed that our Government did not give the attention it should have given to trying to support what are euphemistically called "the traditional industries".

1725.

With regard to the Jutland study, had the Govern­ment done what the Danish Economic Minister did when faced with the same problem in Denmark, do you feel that the situation would perhaps have been turned round?

1726.

What is your opinion on the craft industry, which is recognised worldwide but not given support?

1727.

Mr Lamont: Concerning craft industries, the problem is that they are small-scale. They are normally individuals working in isolation. It is difficult to envisage so many individuals coming together to make an industry. I am conscious of so many jobs having been lost in Derry, but if you went down a craft route you would replace only a tiny minority of those. There is always a place for craft, but the answer to our problem does not lie in that area.

1728.

Mrs Nelis: I did not suggest that.

1729.

Mr Lamont: I appreciate that. The Jutland study is interesting, and there are lessons to be learnt, but I believe they are not immediately applicable to Northern Ireland. Jutland has some advantages over Northern Ireland. There is a land bridge into Europe. There are some very major and affluent countries connecting onto Jutland, which are looking for high-quality merchandise. Northern Ireland is a country on the periphery, and there are two stretches of water to cross before reaching Europe. There are difficulties. Transport and our own sense of remoteness probably add to those difficulties.

1730.

One area touched on in this report, is the obvious application of the new electronic links. We can use those to try and jump distances, to become a little bit more connected to the market place and to the strategic alliance partners with which one might form up. There are some solutions, but one cannot adopt a laissez-faire attitude. There are interesting lessons to be learnt, but no easy solutions to be found with the Jutland experiment.

1731.

Mr Dallat: In your submission you say that the textile and clothing industry needs to survive. You go on to suggest that there is a need to establish stronger and more efficient supply chains. Perhaps you would tell us a bit more about current difficulties? Large retail multiples have the power to kill industry stone dead, as they have done with the bread industry and various others. Could you suggest what their role is, other than to make huge profits?

1732.

Mr Lamont: The quick answer is that we are all culpable. It is too easy to point the finger at the large multiples; it is really their customers - and we are all customers of them. I do not want to embarrass anyone here by asking them where their shirt or jacket came from.

1733.

Mr Byrne: If we want the textile industry to survive it has got to have a value-added brand and a marketing image. Young people will pay enormous sums of money for a branded product.

1734.

Mr Dallat: Bearing in mind the things Mr Byrne mentioned, surely there is a great onus on large retailers, who are benefiting from profits, to be locked into the industry in the same way as the pharmaceutical industry and others are.

1735.

Prof Hill: Manufacturers are generating the research and development going on in our university at present. It is not being generated by the supply end.

1736.

Mr Beggs: Is there any merit in further education colleges taking the lead role with a degree of learndirect, so that some distance learning and an occasional coming together could take place in the industry?

1737.

Mr Lamont: That is happening, and we should not undersell what we are actually doing. One of the difficulties, and perhaps Prof Hill is more qualified to say this than myself, from an employer's point of view, is that the halcyon days when we would have 20 or 30 students in the technical college waiting to be told about textiles have long since past. The requirement now is for a company to train one or two people in key positions.

1738.

From a purely commercial perspective, universities and further education colleges are being told to become profit orientated and self-sustaining. They cannot afford to run courses for one person. So, we are looking for new forms of education and training such as distance learning packages. That is why it is so important for us to link up with other centres of excellence and use a network approach. We can learn from places such as Bolton and the University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology. We could use a satellite organisation as the provider here, and the student could then go on to those centres of excellence for particular specialities. For that reason, the whole idea of education and training is changing. We are looking at much more individually tailored packages, because numbers of students are not being generated.

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