COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

3280.

Mr Beggs: Do you accept that addressing the under-representation of working-class Protestant men in further education should be a priority? What are you doing to redress that?

3281.

Prof Norton: The demographic evidence supports that. Targeting social need is part of NIBEP's strategy to address that problem across communities.

3282.

Mr Beggs: You said that you received an additional £300,000 and not the £900,000 that you would have liked. Therefore your funding has not been cut, but it has not been expanded to the preferred extent, is that correct?

3283.

Mr Smart: We now deal with the 1,000 schools in the primary sector for the first time; we also have 17 colleges in the further education sector. Our remit has extended considerably across all aspects of education, but we have only managed to source an additional £300,000. This will not allow us to carry out our plan in full or address many of the issues that you raise in your questions.

3284.

Prof Norton: We must benchmark the resources for this area to achieve a knowledge-based economy in future. We can measure our shortfall against Scotland, which has taken a strong lead in producing an entre­preneurial economy. We should measure our resources against the Scots' to get an idea of how much we need in order to deliver our programme successfully.

3285.

The Chairperson: Do the Scottish Executive spend more on business and education partnerships?

3286.

Mr Smart: Teacher placements at £3·2 million are a good benchmark.

3287.

Mr Beggs: Can you make a comparison with England and Wales as well? After all, Scotland gets much more money to spend on education.

3288.

Prof Norton: Perhaps that is the nature of policy decisions which you must advise on.

3289.

Mr Beggs: Have you a benchmark with England and Wales? How do you make a comparison?

3290.

Mr Smart: The education business partnerships in England are being completely restructured. The local enterprise companies (LECs) and the training and enterprise councils (TECs) have been disbanded and are being reorganised. About £25 million is available for business education partnerships alone, aside from the mainstream programmes of teacher placement and other activity.

3291.

We have strong links with Scotland and have been to see the work being done there. Scotland is also reorganising. The 26 education business partnerships in Scotland are being brought together with the Careers Service and Scottish Enterprise to establish a model similar to ours, which they will deliver. They have about £5 million for business education partnerships, aside from the £3·2 million for teacher placements. We can get the figures for you.

3292.

We have three business education partnerships in Larne, Carrick and Newtownabbey. Two are quite vibrant; we must work on the other one. We also have a part-time worker. Newtownabbey District Council has been very forthcoming and has provided £10,000 for activities in local schools. We spend a great deal of time and effort working with the enterprise agencies and economic development officers to get meagre resources from councils for this activity. It is a dreadful waste of our resources continually having to go round the 26 district councils seeking £2,000 here or £3,000 there. The effort sometimes outweighs the money that we get.

3293.

The Chairperson: You highlighted the shortfall in Government spending on business education partnerships. Are businesses in the private sector philanthropic? I have just returned from the USA where I looked at economic and educational development. I got the impres­sion that the USA's big companies are much more philan­thropic. Is it because of the tax system, because Govern­ment spending is lower or it is due to American culture?

3294.

Prof Norton: All those reasons are part of the explanation. There are fiscal incentives, but tradition and social recognition also play a role. Endowments, for example, are part of the culture. It is a different situation and comparisons are not useful. The largest firms in Northern Ireland have given substantial commitments to strategic initiatives which bear their name.

3295.

Unfortunately - or perhaps fortunately - small and medium-sized enterprises in Northern Ireland do not have the wherewithal to do that. The number of local companies which can make such financial commitments is limited. Training boards and training institutions bringing smaller companies together is a recent welcome development. NIBEP encourages this and we hope to address the small and medium-­sized enterprises in the future.

3296.

The Chairperson: Your presentation has been extremely helpful. The Committee recognises the importance of your work and wishes you well in the future. Thank you.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 21 June 2001

Members present:

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Mr Hay

Mr R Hutchinson

Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:

Dr R Davison )                     Department of Higher and Further                      Mrs C Bell         )                     Education, Training and Employment

3297.

The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee I welcome Dr Robson Davison, deputy secretary in the Department, and Mrs Catherine Bell, assistant secretary in Further Education and Learning Policy Division. Thank you for the written brief. Following your present­ation the Committee members will ask you some questions.

3298.

Mrs C Bell: There were significant changes in the further education sector during the 1990s. The number of colleges was reduced from 26 to 17, and a major change came about in 1998 when the colleges moved from the control of the education and library boards and became incorporated, responsible to governing bodies. That was a significant change, with governors having control of the assets, staffing and budgets. The remainder of the United Kingdom achieved incorporated status almost five years previously.

3299.

There are about 24,000 full-time students in further education, the majority of whom are 16- to 19- year-olds, and there are around 65,000 part-time students, the majority of whom are aged over 19 years. Since 1997-98 there has been an increase of about 18% in mature students, and we would like to see a further increase in part-time students.

3300.

 The comprehensive spending review in 1998 brought an increase in resources of about 52% from the 1997-98 budget to around £138 million in 2000-01.

3301.

 The strategic objectives for the further education sector can be set out in three broad areas - supporting the economy, widening access and increasing part­icipation, and improving quality and raising standards.

3302.

With regard to supporting the economy, the strategic objectives came from the Further Education (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 and were reinforced in the 'Lifelong Learning' document in 1999 and 'Strategy 2010', and supported more recently in the Programme for Government. In the supporting the economy objective we have focused the colleges on six priority skill areas - construction, computing, hospitality and catering, manufacturing engineering, electronics, and software engineering. We have been involved in developing centres of excellence in these six priority skill areas and have put considerable resources into that. We have funded colleges for restructuring so that their curriculum and staffing meet the needs of the economy. We have also funded them for a skills initiative which not only supports the economy but also widens access to people who previously would not have benefited from further education. The fund is focused on vocational areas at level two and level three.

3303.

We are currently working on an initiative aimed at encouraging colleges to work with and support small and medium-sized enterprises; this is a major priority. In the past three years we have invested around £10 million in an information communication technology (ICT) strategy, not only to ensure that we have the correct infrastructure, with every college having one industry- standard PC to five full-time equivalent students, but also to ensure that they are connected to the SuperJANET, which is the joint academic network, so that students can benefit from speed and access to the Internet.

3304.

Part of the strategy has been to ensure that lecturers can use ICT in teaching and learning. However, it is not just for lecturers to develop word processing and database skills but for them to use that in the classroom. The final part of the ICT strategy is to ensure that there are sufficient curriculum materials.

3305.

 The last area I want to mention under supporting the economy is the lecturers into industry initiative. In the past three years we have invested around £300,000 each year to give lecturers up to 12 weeks in industry. We focused on engineering, hospitality and catering. Last year we extended this also to software engineering, and this year we will also include construction. Since 1998 there has been a 45% increase in enrolments in the six priority skill areas, which is good news for supporting the economy.

3306.

With regard to widening access, this is as important as supporting the economy. We are currently developing a strategy for basic skills because we want to ensure that all people benefit from the job opportunities that a knowledge-based economy may bring, and we want to ensure that people can enhance the quality of their lives.

3307.

We have also introduced a partnership fund so that colleges are encouraged to work alongside the community, district councils, chambers of commerce, employers, schools and training organisations in their areas. Funding is provided to build up innovative ways to reach out to people who have not previously benefited from education. We have increased the funding, and we hope to increase it further for disabled access so that people with disabilities can also benefit from education.

3308.

The big factors in improving quality and raising standards have been the introduction and extension of individualised student learning agreements. We require colleges to develop an individual contract between students and their course tutor. The aim is to match their programme of study to their abilities and interests to achieve the best possible outcome. We also supported the introduction of Curriculum 2000 so that young people can not only take broad, balanced programmes but they can also gain credit for individual units. We support the Northern Ireland Credit Accumulation Transfer System (NICATS) so that people will be rewarded for what they study, not just for completion of a course.

3309.

You have heard evidence from the Education and Training Inspectorate about the self-evaluation process. We have been encouraging that process so that colleges take responsibility for their own quality, using indicators that are standard across the sector.

3310.

Finally, where do we want to see the further education sector going, and how have we been pushing it along? We have come a long way in three years. We must keep it in perspective. The incorporated bodies have only existed for three years. They are much more focused on supporting the economy, reaching out and widening access on the social inclusion agenda and improving quality. We see the further education sector as a regional economic driver which serves the community - particularly small and medium-sized enterprises - and contributes to the social inclusion agenda through widening participation. Last but not least, we see it making efficient and effective use of resources.

3311.

Mr Carrick: You mentioned the effective use of resources and a 52% increase in funding in 1998, which was presumably linked to the new structures. How much of that increased funding went towards the administration of the 17 different colleges, as opposed to delivery of the service to young people? I want to evaluate decentralisation from the aspect of providing value for money. How successful has the local manage­ment approach to further education colleges been? Have areas been identified where centralised control would be more cost effective and of greater benefit to students? When will the results of the three years of monitoring and evaluation be available?

3312.

Mrs C Bell: When the Department is allocating the budget, some of it is top sliced for earmarked funds. Over the past few years we have earmarked a substantial amount of money. We see that as the way by which the Department can determine where the college should go - for example, we earmarked money for the centres of excellence, the access initiative, the partnership funds and the ICT strategy. We take a significant amount from the budget and put it into funds that direct the college in certain ways.

3313.

The recurrent budget is based on the number of students at the college. This is worked out on the basis of a student-powered unit of resource, which is the number of students in the initial recruitment phase, the learning phase and from outcome. We give the colleges an amount of money for recruitment, the learning phase and, finally, the outcome phase. There are weightings as well, according to vocational areas, social need or whether it is basic education provision, and so on, but we have control of the funding.

3314.

You also asked when we would be carrying out an evaluation of the comprehensive spending review that generated the money in 1998-99. We are about to start the evaluation of the various aspects of the three strategic objectives. We will look at how successful colleges have been in supporting the economy, and if the resources which we put into the centres of excellence has been value for money. We will do that through the inspectorate and also through working with the employers who were involved initially in determining the centres of excellence. We will do a similar evaluation on the ICT strategy and the various other strategies. In the next 12 months we will have evaluated almost all of the strategies that we have put in place.

3315.

Dr Davison: You also asked about the amount of the increased funding that has gone to admin­istration. We fund the colleges by block grant, and it would be a matter for each individual college to determine, within the context of the block grant, how it distributes that funding. We could not put a universal figure on what percentage has gone to administration. We are conscious that there has been an increase in administration because colleges' governing bodies are responsible for a range of functions for which they were not responsible in the past. The education and library boards would have carried that through prior to incorporation, but even then on a limited basis. We cannot put a figure on it, but our guess would be that the increased amount for administration has not been excessive. It has matched the degree of the increase of responsibility to the colleges.

3316.

On centralised control, which is an interesting question, Mrs Bell mentioned the earmarked funds. We have particular strategic objectives, and we have used earmarked funds to target very closely those specific objectives. Where we have determined that there is a need for a more centralised view, we have used a funding lever as a means of getting what the Department requires.

3317.

Mr Carrick: Will the evaluation address the cost effectiveness of having 17 individual administrative cost centres and the possibility of reducing them in number? I know this is getting back to the old system again, but we would like to know the answer.

3318.

Dr Davison: We monitor very closely the general costs and the funding flows across the sector. We have no specific intention of addressing that particular issue at this time. This depends on where you are coming from - if it is not 17, is it five, or eight, or nine, or ten? We are convinced that the range of functions must be covered. Perhaps you might want that range of functions covered in a different way, but at the moment we monitor on an individual college basis.

3319.

Mrs C Bell: We have been encouraging colleges to collaborate and make best use of resources, which is why we have a number of funds. College lecturers and resources can be used across colleges so that they can focus on a particular vocational area where colleges have expertise. We have been using them for collaboration and partnerships.

3320.

Mr Carrick: "Collaboration" is a key word.

3321.

Mrs Carson: In many of our inquiry sessions we have heard a lot of criticism from industry about the lack of careers advice. What do you think could be done to improve relationships with the Training and Employment Agency, different colleges and careers teachers in schools giving careers advice? We have had criticism from industry that they are not getting young people prepared for industry. You have said a great deal about colleges doing what they want in their courses, and that is fine: they might be excellent courses, but are they relevant to industry and its needs?

3322.

Last week we had visitors from Wales. They came up with Careers Wales, and they have a one-stop shop. Have you considered anything like that in Northern Ireland?

3323.

Mrs C Bell: The wider careers provision is not my remit: I do not have responsibility for careers within the Department. We have been working with the further education colleges and pushing them in the direction of the individualised student learning agree­ment, so that when a student comes through the door there is time spent with that student, not just identifying interests and needs, but also trying to open up a range of career opportunities. That learning agreement is monitored throughout the student's programme in the college.

3324.

 Before that, another area which we believe that colleges should be looking at - and some of them are more successful than others - is working in conjunction with the schools. There has been some flexibility in the curriculum at Key Stage 4, and students aged 14 and 15 - the old fourth form and fifth form - are going into colleges and doing vocational programmes and opening their minds to the range of vocational programmes. The fear that we have, and something that we would like to see addressed - and we think there is great potential to address - is that at present the focus at Key Stage 4 is on young people going to college who are either disaffected with an academic curriculum, demotivated or young people who are not of high academic ability. We would like to see an opportunity for the more able young people to see the range of careers available to them by having some of their curriculum within the further education sector, possibly doing a few units of IT, engineering, construction, in any of the six priority areas.

3325.

 We have focused the colleges on the big priority areas and have put considerable resources into these. We are looking at the 16 to 19 curriculum in the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment to see what employers expect of young people when they finish their programme in a college. It is not just vocational skills, it is the broader skills of working as part of a team: being entrepreneurial; having good communication skills; being able to use numbers effectively; and using ICT. We are working at different levels, but there is a broader issue in relation to careers that needs to be addressed. The review of careers has just finished.

3326.

Dr Davison: The relevance of provision to industry is a big issue. Ahead of the rest of the United Kingdom, we have identified, through the skills initiative, six areas that the Training and Employment Agency says are relevant to economic growth. Those areas are ICT; electronics; software engineering; construction; tourism and hospitality; and the manufacturing industry. We have put a skills initiative in place as an incentive to the colleges to recruit into those areas that are of relevance to the local economy. That incentive funding has generated a considerable increase in enrolments in those areas.

3327.

We have supported that by taking a policy line that tries to identify centres of excellence across the sector. The first time that we employed this policy we set the hurdle very high, and we ended up with six colleges identified as centres of excellence in the key skill areas. In addition to operating on the individual student front, we operate at institution level in order to make sure that enrolments are related to the needs that local industry and institutions perceive. That is the direction in which we are attempting to move policy.

3328.

Mrs Carson: I cannot remember the name of the college or the industry that was concerned, but one set of witnesses said that the industrialists, having received a poor reply from the college, had set up their own programme. The lecturers thought that they would not be able to deliver results in that area, but when the programme was set up, with the industry as the impetus, they had a 100% success rate. There is a lot to learn from what the industrialists need.

3329.

Mrs C Bell: That is why we have been so pleased with the lecturers into industry initiative. Not only has it enhanced the skills of the lecturers and brought them up to date, but it has also developed strong relationships between employers and colleges. The employers are now saying to us that they would like to get involved in working in the college, and we are currently looking at ways to broker that.

3330.

Dr Davison: In the context of the economic relevance of further education provision, which is one of our strategic objectives, we see two continua at work. One continuum is at institutional level. Some institutions have bought into the policy completely and see that their focus should be on serving local economic needs; some institutions, further down the continuum, have not reached that stage yet but are on their way there. And there are some that are a bit further down the continuum still - I will not name names.

3331.

Sometimes you can spot the continuum even within a college. Some schools or departments in the same college will be very clued in to the local industrial or business picture while some are on their way there or only just getting things off the ground. There is a process at work here whereby the sector engages ever more with local business and industry. At our end, we are trying to identify what other mechanisms are required in order to apply the system across the board and get everybody working at the same level. However, the process will take time.

3332.

Mrs C Bell: We must remember that the process involves enabling young people, particularly people aged 16 to 19, to cope with life as well as the demands of industry so that, apart from anything else, they are well prepared to be good citizens.

3333.

The Chairperson: I have five names on the list of people who wish to ask questions, and we only have about 20 minutes of this session left. Could Members therefore keep their questions as concise as possible.

3334.

Mr Hay: I would like to return to a matter that has been a contentious point with the Committee for a while - the difficulty of trying to extract information from 17 different colleges. All give the information in different formats - for example, it is difficult to get information from some colleges concerning those full- time, part-time or non-educational staff who are on sick leave. In further and higher education colleges there does not seem to be a streamlining of this information. Most people see colleges - whether we like it or not - as public bodies accountable to Government.

3335.

As a Committee, we find it increasingly difficult to get information, on whatever subject. That is something that the Department and the Assembly need to get a handle on. It must be streamlined across the Province. There seemed to be a difficulty in getting the information that we asked for on a number of issues, such as on the inquiry into education and training for industry. What are your thoughts on trying to develop a situation where that information should be to hand, whether it relates to accountancy, financial matters, whatever it is? It is currently not there.

3336.

Mrs C Bell: With regard to collecting information, we have been working with the colleges to standardise the Department's and the inspectorate's requirements for information from colleges. Over many years, inform­ation has been produced in one format for use in the college, the Department asks for financial or statistical information, and the inspectorate also asks for information about recruitment, retention and performance.

3337.

We had a small working group whereby all parties identified what their needs were. It took a long time to get down to looking at what we all need - what the Department needs for funding and account­ability and what the inspectorate needs for looking at the efficiency and the quality of the provision. We also had to consider the information the institutes need to monitor and improve the performance of their organ­isation. We have now established the requirements, but it has to be owned by the sector. A business case has been put together that is about to go to the Department of Finance and Personnel because we need a manage­ment information system that is robust across the sector, and this will be incredibly difficult. A college is a complex organisation; there are courses that last 10 weeks, some which last the whole year and others that cover two years.

3338.

We are also in the process, with NICATS, of unitising the curriculum. We must ensure that whatever system we set up to collect the information is able to accommodate the changes that are in train. I agree that it is difficult at times to get information in a standard form across the sector. We are currently working with them on that.

3339.

Mr Beggs: I welcome the fact that you are moving toward a standardised information system. The question that arises is why was it not there from the start? It is an obvious need. What is the function of the Department having created these courses if it did not exist from the start? I hope that it is brought together urgently, because I perceive an urgent need for it.

3340.

Mrs Bell: We are currently working on it.

3341.

Dr Davison: The Further Education (Northern Ireland) Order 1997 states that we have the powers to seek information, and we get information in standardised forms in the areas that we originally identified as necessary. You are proposing to extend the range of information that we get.

3342.

Mr Hay: I would have thought that any college could straightforwardly tell you, for example, how many full-time and part-time staff are on sick leave. We cannot even get that information.

3343.

Dr Davison: I am very disappointed about that. Under the Order, colleges are responsible for their own staff, and they absolutely ought to know. If the issue is extending and standardising the information, the powers are there to enable us to do that.

3344.

Mr Beggs: Indeed, the Committee could get that information if it wanted.

3345.

 Northern Ireland has some of the lowest levels of literacy in Western countries. As regards widening access and increasing participation, how will the Department ensure that it will apply to all areas? My own constituency, for example, has no permanent college, although there is a temporary site in Larne. Some additional education funds, through Proteus (NI) Ltd and the Education Guidance Service for Adults (EGSA), have been particularly targeted at drawing people into education through the community sector, but that does not put money in on the ground. How is the Depart­ment proactively assisting the identification of areas of deprivation, where such educational need arises? How will it assist people to get into education, which is the route out of some of the difficulties?

3346.

Mrs C Bell: The basic skills unit has advised the Minister on standards, curriculum, tests and qualifications for teachers and tutors. The Department is currently preparing the draft strategy, and the last thing that we need is to write a strategy that targets only a small percentage of the population. We must ensure that all people benefit from the basic skills strategy.

3347.

The overarching aim will be to ensure that all of our people have the skills in communication, application of numbers and information technology to avail of the new jobs that will come. It should also enhance their quality of life, because improving basic skills should not just be for functional purposes.

3348.

The Department's approach will target not just literacy and numeracy because few people will buy into that. However, we must ensure that no matter what programmes are put in place - whether they are New Deal, Jobskills, through a further education college or through a statutory or non-statutory body - there is a component to take account of basic skills. It starts at the very beginning by looking at the early screening so that there is some indication and proper diagnosis of people's weaknesses to develop a programme built on their interests or vocational needs.

3349.

One of the biggest shocks from the international adult literacy survey was the high percentage of people with basic skills deficiencies who are actually employed. We must therefore work with the unions and employers. We have already started that and asked the basic skills unit to look at innovative approaches to delivering basic skills in the workplace and the community and to funding the programmes. The colleges, of course, are central to this.

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