COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

3198.

Prof Bain: The comparative advantage of universities is not to teach basic literacy or numeracy - other people can do that much better. However, if I can put it in a nautical way, there are people who have missed the boat the first time around, maybe even the second time around, and then manage to achieve a level of education which shows that they would benefit from a university education. It is our duty - and I was trying to hint at that through widening access - to ensure that they get on the boat the second or third time it comes around.

3199.

We have tried to do that - and Prof Cormack has more knowledge of that than I have - in a number of ways, partly by closer articulation, to use the jargon, with further education colleges. Students in further education can see how this translates - if they achieve certain goals they can enter Queen's, the University of Ulster or elsewhere. We have tried to do that through the "Discovering Queen's" programme, because it is best to reach people as early as possible. We have started a programme that ultimately will begin to introduce children from age 11 onwards -for obvious reasons - leading to summer schools for sixth-formers, which is to prepare them for Queen's or other institutions in the Province.

3200.

Prof Cormack: The Committee will form its own opinion about 11+ selection and the Gallagher report, and the implications of that are for you to question. The big concern in the further education sector is a drift into academic and upper vocational courses. The 20% you talked about were probably rather badly treated by the formal secondary school system, and we expect further education colleges to address that.

3201.

The Chairperson: The amount of resources per capita going into higher education has dropped substantially over the last 10 to 15 years. Which way of boosting funding would be best - increased Government spending, raising tuition fees, the top-up fee system, a graduate tax, or some form of deferred contribution? If my reading is accurate, UK universities seem to be unable to form a consensus among themselves as to the best way forward. Perhaps it is unfair to ask if there is a Queen's University view. Would you like to comment on that?

3202.

Prof Bain: We should like an increase from all three sources, but I assume that was not quite what you were asking. At one level it is very complex, but at another rather simple. There are only three sources of money for higher education, and you touched on them all. It can either come from the consumers -the students - the Government, or employers. It occurs to me now that there is a fourth source - that of private fundraising, or what we euphemistically call "development".

3203.

As you say, that which comes from the Govern­ment has been declining. Maybe I am conditioned by my North American background, though I have been here almost 40 years now. I do not believe that any mass system of higher education can be funded from general taxation, if one is to expect the politicians levying the taxes to be re-elected and the quality to be maintained. When I came to the United Kingdom in 1963, we were educating 9% of the cohort. You can certainly fund such a system from general taxation, but it is elitist. Once you start getting a participation rate of 44%, as I believe we have in Northern Ireland - or even 35% in the UK as a whole - funding the system from the public purse through taxation while maintaining quality becomes very difficult.

3204.

For that reason, you must begin looking at private funding, and both Queen's and the University of Ulster have recently set up development departments to help try to raise it. However, there is a limit even to what you can get from that. The conclusion I come to is that fees are inevitable. In part you must ask those who are going to benefit to help contribute. Speaking as someone who came from a working-class background and paid fees to come to university myself, I feel the critical thing is how you do that. In Northern Ireland - or at least at Queen's, and I am sure the figures at the University of Ulster are very similar - only 42% of students pay full fees. The other 58% either pay partial fees or none at all. Perhaps Mr O'Kane has a break­down at his fingertips.

3205.

Mr O'Kane: Thirty-eight per cent are fully sponsored, and 20% make a part contribution.

3206.

Prof Bain: Basically it is a 60/40 split. The reason we welcomed the Minister's initiative was that he was targeting the inevitably scarce resources where they were most needed. I feel that was a very good thing to do, as I regard free higher education as the most regressive tax in the system. You have the parents of bus drivers and factory workers subsidising the children of vice chancellors and doctors. In a regime of limited resources, I would rather see the money going to those who really need it. I speak not of Northern Ireland but of any mass system of education when I say that, unless you take the Italian or French route, where people cannot even get a seat in lecture theatres because of the numbers, you are inevitably thrown back on some system of student fees.

3207.

It is critical that those fees do not discourage certain socio-economic groups from applying. A graduate tax is a better way of doing that than having large debt. However, one then gets into second order questions. If I had to place a bet I would say that Britain will have top-up fees in the next five years.

3208.

The Chairperson: Thank you for the written submission and your answers.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 31 May 2001

Members present:

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Ms McWilliams

Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:

Prof B Norton  ) NIBEP

Mr B Smart     )

3209.

The Chairperson: The representatives of the Northern Ireland Business Education Partnership (NIBEP) are welcome to the Committee. Professor Norton will make a short introduction on which the Committee will ask questions.

3210.

Prof Norton: NIBEP is an umbrella organisation under the auspices of the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and the Department of Education. It promotes and develops links between business and education and aims at producing an insight into the business world and at producing a workforce in Northern Ireland capable of competing on the world stage. It aims at developing the knowledge-based economy.

3211.

NIBEP works through a range of initiatives, and it is founded on the grassroots through local and area business education partnerships so that it can address the needs of small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). It also aims at addressing local community needs by bringing major investors to Northern Ireland that will contribute to the economy by providing money for initiatives.

3212.

NIBEP has a diverse board. The chairman is from Marks & Spencer - and he sends his apologies for not being here - I am the vice-chairman. Repre­sentatives from education, local authorities, industry and training support NIBEP's activities.

3213.

Mr Carrick: What do you mean by "social responsibility"? What does NIBEP expect from modern businesses? Are there different expectations of small and medium-sized enterprises and the larger companies, and how is social responsibility measured across businesses?

3214.

Prof Norton: Industry and commerce require good education and good social order; but they must contribute to them. There cannot be links between schools and industry and commerce unless repre­sentatives from industry and commerce give of their time to come into schools and participate.

3215.

To create a successful economy, companies must behave with a certain altruism in their local communities and beyond them. That is easier for larger companies as they have more resources to deploy and can second people to enterprises. However, it is probably more important for smaller companies. They are more likely to be the engine of Northern Ireland's economy in future. This is by no means to disparage multinationals - we like to get their branches here - but they tend to be transient. The development of an indigenous knowledge-­based economy will be based on small and medium-­sized enterprises, so it is more important that they contribute to forming a society and an educational system that will service their needs.

3216.

The 27 local business education partnerships (BEPs) make a great effort to ensure that they attract and train local small and medium-sized enterprises.

3217.

Mr Smart: There are 27 business education partner­ships throughout the district council areas. Dungannon and Cookstown work together very closely, and there are two partnerships in Belfast. As part of our approach to inclusivity we have a special needs business education partnership which brings together special schools with a broad range of companies across the Province as one unit. As part of our attempts to promote corporate social responsibility we rely heavily on donors from companies to participate in our programmes. You are quite right to identify the two distinct areas of large and small companies and the need for smaller companies to recognise social responsibility and the economic benefits that can flow from it.

3218.

NIBEP works very closely with the Confederation of British Industry (CBI), the Institute of Directors and the Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce and Industry. They are all represented on our board as part of our attempts to create a seamless garment of business and education. More importantly, we work closely with LEDU in identifying 1,500 growth companies throughout Northern Ireland. We intend to take forward two of the main areas of our work, work experience and teacher placements, so that schoolchildren, teachers and students in further edu­cation colleges experience working in a small company with all its competing demands. We must work harder to encourage small and medium-­sized enterprises. Larger companies see their social responsibility by way of the European Foundation for Quality Management (EFQM) excellence model with its points system. They also regard it as a very useful way of interacting with the community and of promoting their company and its products. We must be mindful of the extent to which we use a variety of companies.

3219.

Mr Carrick: What are the main lessons that you have learned since 1995 and what obstacles have you experienced in trying to reach your declared objective?

3220.

Mr Smart: The grammar schools have strong links when getting donors to take part in mock interviews, providing work experience and opportunities for teacher placements.

3221.

In more disadvantaged areas such as Dundonald or west Belfast there is a lack of role models. It is therefore incumbent upon us to ensure that there is a pool of donors to contribute to all programmes in a wide range of colleges and schools and across social divisions. It is important that we overcome that.

3222.

Our new business plan intends to establish a database of adequate resources to schools. More importantly, we intend to develop a mechanism to skew our resources towards those in TSN areas, to spend money on those young people most in need and to link companies with them.

3223.

Mr Dallat: You stress the need to promote greater employer participation in the design and delivery of programmes in higher and further education. Can this be made more effective?

3224.

Prof Norton: That is NIBEP's raison d'être. The organisation was reconfigured two years ago and it now acts as an umbrella to all provider bodies in this area, and a great deal of the work has been to effect that change. We have moved from several organisations being effective despite the system to their working under an umbrella because of the system.

3225.

We had an interesting time getting charitable organisations to work towards a common purpose. We have engaged with Business in the Community, Young Enterprise, Industry Matters/Northern Ireland Science and Technology Regional Organisation (NISTRO) and Shell LiveWIRE to bring them under a common umbrella for a common purpose. Our goal is to manifest that in a practical way. It could be accessed on a web site - all the links would come from the same source. As things stand, several people might approach the same firm for help for a particular school; and several people might approach the same school. This can create confusion. One of the objectives is a one-stop shop to increase effectiveness.

3226.

Mr Dallat: You mentioned the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA).

3227.

Prof Norton: Yes, it is represented on the board.

3228.

Mr Dallat: I must confess, as a former teacher, that much of what I taught was irrelevant. I know that the CCEA is now much more sharply focused than in the past. Schools have perhaps fewer opportunities to choose boards as schools in England or Wales which offer greater likelihood of simply passing exams with no reference to the content. Are you satisfied that CCEA now produces relevant syllabi, with particular focus on social education?

3229.

Prof Norton: Mr Smart may contradict me, but I am satisfied that things are moving in the right direction. However, role models are important. In communities which have suffered generations of unemployment or underemployment, lack of aspiration can militate against positive things happening in schools. The approach must be holistic, and the role of one agency cannot be isolated.

3230.

Mr Smart: I do not disagree with that. NIBEP has a very good relationship with the CCEA. We are represented on the 4-14 curriculum review, and I sit on the 16-19 curriculum review. We have acted as a conduit in bringing employers to those forums.

3231.

There is greater emphasis on teamwork, employ­ability and communication skills in the 14-19 curriculum review. There is also emphasis on being able to change the curriculum to allow those exercises to take place and to reward them. Active, creative and participative citizenship is also part of the new curriculum. That is an important aspect of our new dispensation, and it is one which we support.

3232.

Equally, the disapplication of the curriculum allows young people at least two days away from school. That is for those who choose a vocational route, and those who require it can be given more attention through smaller class sizes. NIBEP and the five education and library boards are engaged in a pilot project in which 120 young people in year 12 - fifth form in old money - will have the opportunity to work with a company to undertake part-NVQ qualifi­cations. That will allow them to progress to modern apprenticeships when they leave school. The dis­application of the curriculum and the flexibility that will come with the new 14-19 curriculum will provide greater opportunities for meaningful work between employers and educationalists. That also means that there will be greater opportunities and clear progression routes for young people when they leave school.

3233.

Prof Norton: The disapplication of the curriculum has so far been extremely successful, both in its outcome and also in motivating those involved. People who had got into a rut in school have blossomed in this scheme.

3234.

Mrs Nelis: I like the concept of NIBEP and I have attended some of its presentations. I worked on a similar project in 1977, which was in many ways ahead of its time, in which young people studied academic subjects in the morning and had careers classes in the afternoon, which was good. Those classes helped break down the cultural alienation that many young people experienced then. The education system designated them as failures, and the situation has not changed. Those people would never have contemplated going into business or have believed that they could be successful.

3235.

The concept works well, especially with the brighter grammar school pupils. How do you break down the cultural alienation of young people at secondary school? How will you encourage and attract them, especially if there is not full employment? In Derry, unemployment is about 14%. How do we get young people to recognise that their future may lie in developing a relationship with local businesses?

3236.

Prof Norton: The disapplication of the curriculum applies to secondary schools. That concerns the people responsible for giving this information to schools. We are trying to address that stage of the process.

3237.

It is more important that NIPEB's remit extends from primary schools to further education. That brings entrepreneurship and awareness of the business world to primary schools. It is important to capture children's attention at a young age. There have been several initiatives through NIBEP and the various supporting provider bodies that directly motivate and encourage primary schools and industry to become involved. That is a good example of social responsibility. Those people will not be working in 10 years' time - or more. One way forward is to become involved with, contribute to and develop skills in schools and often to provide school equipment.

3238.

Mr Smart: Professor Norton is right to stress that, until 1995, NIBEP worked exclusively in post-­primary schools. Our remit now extends into primary and further education. We hope to secure the resources to undertake the considerable work that we are being asked to do.

3239.

The new NIBEP must develop programmes that will intervene at various stages in the primary, post-­primary and the further education sectors and which will demonstrate what business is about. Through our providers such as Young Enterprise, Industry Matters/ NISTRO people get an opportunity to experience entrepreneurship and enterprise. They also have an opportunity to get involved with functional activities by way of science and technology and to develop necessary skills such as teamworking and communication. We must inculcate this in the curriculum, reward and recognise it. NVQs provide an opportunity as do GNVQs in schools.

3240.

Our school to work programmes link young people with companies in which they spend time as part of their last two years at school. One in particular is linked to the training councils in which there are skills shortages. We try to link schools to workplaces in areas where there are jobs and particular skills shortages so that companies derive economic benefit while discharging a social responsibility. We must create the balance. We must also get employers to realise that they must be there all the time and not only when there are skills shortages. They must be there in good times and in bad. We are encouraged that more employers are doing that.

3241.

The recent Northern Ireland skills monitoring survey threw up a very interesting statistic. When asked "What do you do to overcome skills shortages?" 30% of the 6,000 companies surveyed replied "Nothing", which is surprising. However, 12% of them said that they were making more contacts with schools and colleges to overcome their present skills shortages. Our goal is to get the 30% to follow the example of the 12%. That would solve many problems.

3242.

Prof Norton: NIBEP's work is to talk to schools, industry, training boards and education and library boards to get a common message across. It covers the earliest years of primary school, the grammar schools, final year students going to university and the Irish-­medium schools in Northern Ireland. Its scope is too broad to be covered in a brief answer.

3243.

Mr Smart: NIBEP operates a work experience programme for 70 companies in greater Belfast. We provide 1,500 places every year for companies such as Bombardier Aerospace Short Brothers plc, the banks, the health trusts, the Housing Executive and Queen's University.

3244.

Last year NIBEP found work experience placements for 1,200 young people; placements which have been vetted for health and safety. We ensure that child protection standards are adhered to, that there is a health and safety policy and that the young people get a job description and have a mentor during their time with the company.

3245.

The programme is useful and should be developed. Our business plan states that we want to expand to 8,000 places by the third year. The programme is costly but cost-effective. It ensures that when young people go into industry they are not sent to a storeroom in the bowels of the company to sort nails and screws. We do not want to give young people that impression of industry. We want them to have an opportunity to use their skills or to realise that they need certain skills to succeed in the world of work. We would like to see that area grow, but as always money is a problem.

3246.

The Chairperson: May I clarify that there are 1,500 places in Belfast and that you want that number raised to 8,000 in Belfast.

3247.

Mr Smart: No, we want to extend the programme thoroughout Northern Ireland. We have 1,500 places and we normally get a match of about 1,200. For some people the timing is wrong; others agree to attend but do not turn up. There is an attendance rate of about 80%.

3248.

Ms McWilliams: Others have said that there must be inward investment to attract companies and that our universities should have a role in identifying skills. Do you work with organisations on inward investment and do you liaise with the Industrial Development Board (IDB)? Does it ask about your progress on inward investment?

3249.

Is your relationship with the two Departments fruitful? There was an unsuccessful Executive bid. I raise that because we recently met a deputation from Newry and Mourne District Council. One of the deputation said that he was happy with the teacher placement exercise and that he wanted to do more but was unable to. Is this a matter for employers or has it to do with funding?

3250.

Prof Norton: NIBEP is involved in determining skills and the economy needed for inward investors. That is different from the universities. The provision of courses in universities is now directly related to graduate manpower needs. That may be five to eight years ahead. When dealing with schools we must look strategically at the curriculum, the emphasis on different subjects, teacher placements and the industries of which careers teachers are aware. That is more broadly based and does not attract a particular inward investor to Northern Ireland, but illustrates the kind of people, workforce and place that Northern Ireland is.

3251.

That is crucial work, because prosperous economies will be increasingly driven by the quality of their workforce. The knowledge-based economy depends on what people know and not on the coal reserves that used to drive the economy. That level is much more strategic, and although the role is developing it is not yet clear. That is one of the many things that NIBEP must do, and that role has not been developed to our satisfaction.

3252.

Despite our chief executive's excellent work it has been difficult to secure the money necessary to deliver our programmes on time. However, we remain optimistic that we will get the necessary funding, but it has been a problem. Perhaps having to deal with two Departments has made matters more difficult.

3253.

I am sure that everyone who comes to the Committee talks about insufficient money and says that the solution is to throw more money at a problem. However, we know that money is limited. Nevertheless, creating a certain kind of economy and manpower does take investment, and we feel that that should be given priority.

3254.

Mr Smart: There are two questions about what type of business education policy there should be. NIBEP believes in encouraging companies to have a business education policy and to set out a template. Companies should take people on work experience, teachers on placement and offer work placements of, perhaps, one day a week over six weeks. They should also get involved in the development of curriculum-based materials to promote areas that have skills shortages. Companies wishing to sponsor a school or a classroom must demonstrate that they have a business education policy.

3255.

The company development programme is a good example. It provides money to companies which are growing in tradeable services and manufacturing to encourage good practice and training. As part of their Government grant, companies are asked to go for Investors In People (IIP) status and they are advised to use NVQs for training. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and the Assembly could encourage companies that are in the company development programme and which receive development grants from the Industrial Research and Technology Unit (IRTU) to ensure that they have links with schools and colleges. It makes sense to release some taxpayers' money to provide training in these companies. That should feed back into schools for their benefit; it should close the gap between education and industry.

3256.

Teacher placements will require teacher cover. The Scottish Executive provides £3·2 million for such placements, and that will give 10% of teachers in all sectors the opportunity to spend two weeks in industry over the next three years. We estimate that there are about 100-200 one-week placements for Northern Ireland's 21,000 teachers. Of course, bringing lecturers into industry is very different, and we have a long way to rectify that. We must give school principals the security of knowing that if a teacher is on placement there will be someone to cover the classes. That poses financial problems.

3257.

Mrs Carson: A letter in your submission sets out NIBEP's remit in 1999. One of the items included in it is the need to foster the development of a bespoke accredited training course for careers teachers. What progress have you made? You said that 70 companies have 1,200 young people on work experience. How many of them have gone into full-time employment in the six years that NIBEP has been in operation?

3258.

Prof Norton: We do not have detailed statistics on that. However, programmes that were sampled were successful. The relevance of work experience to permanent employment is difficult to judge. Programmes that have encouraged people to go into engineering careers have been successful - 90% take-up is typical. However, we do not have statistics for all, as they are not tracked in that way.

3259.

Mrs Carson: It would be interesting to know. Some students regard placements as a day away from academic work. Do you have a bespoke accredited training course for careers teachers?

3260.

Prof Norton: Placements are not a day out.

3261.

Mrs Carson: I did not say that. I said that some young people regard them as such. I do not want a placement for the sake of it. A placement should fulfil its original purpose.

3262.

Mr Smart: At our pilot project in Craigavon young people must attend school for three days; they spend a day at a further education college and a day with their employer. There is a similar scheme in the north-west.

3263.

If students do not attend school on Monday and Tuesday, they do not go to school on Wednesday or spend Thursday in the college or Friday with an employer. The students have a responsibility to ensure that they attend school, as many of them have not been doing so. They are encouraged to come to school for the three days to study the normal curriculum; they then attend the further education college and spend the last day on work placement. There is an 80%-90% improvement in attendance of the young people who participate in the scheme.

3264.

We are moving from the perception that a placement is a day away from school. Those young people now realise that they must go to school for the first three days of the week in order to spend the other two days at college and with the employer. It is important that they know that they cannot avoid school and then go to work. We want young people to make the link between work and school.

3265.

I am happy to report that we have agreed a new continuous professional development programme with the University of Ulster to commence in September. It is supported by the Belfast Education and Library Board and by the western and southern education and library boards. A certificate course for teachers will be provided, with the opportunity to move on to diploma and Master's courses.

3266.

NIBEP will provide economic development modules for it, but it will also place unattached teachers who are on the in-service course with companies of their choice or in their sectoral area. NIBEP has also agreed to pay for the teacher cover. That may be premature, but the commitment has been given. That will not happen until year two.

3267.

More importantly, the north eastern and south eastern boards are engaged in a programme at Queen's University. It does not have a work placement for teachers, but NIBEP has agreed to fund teacher cover if such placements are introduced.

3268.

We are well on the way to addressing bespoke training for careers teachers. However, I want to see it go beyond that to involve all teachers. Careers teachers alone cannot be expected to inform pupils about opportunities. Science, engineering, maths and geography teachers must be made aware of the rapid changes in industry.

3269.

Prof Norton: Teachers cannot go into industry or commerce peripatetically; they must develop an understanding of those industries. That involves commit­ment from the industries. It will excite the interest of those involved. Mindlessly sorting screws in a forgotten storeroom is not a very interesting or positive experience.

3270.

It is important that teachers get a profound insight into what a sector does and that children find something which engages them intellectually.

3271.

Mrs Carson: How will you get the money?

3272.

Mr Smart: The Executive have competing priorities. However, if we are to address skills shortages, the long-term interests of the economy and areas of social division, and if we are to create a society that provides equal opportunity for all, the Executive must recognise their responsibility. The Executive must also recognise that companies contribute a great deal of support in kind to business education, and if we are to take business education partnerships seriously we must provide the funding. We must find the money despite competition for resources; we must argue the case for funding as others do. Our children are our future, and on the island of Ireland young people are the majority. We must provide opportunities for their future.

3273.

Mr Beggs: NIBEP speaks of encouraging participation in education, particularly among women. Since 58% of students in further and higher education are women why must the number of female students increase? Male, working-class Protestants are the most under-represented group in higher and further education. How have you encouraged that group to participate in education?

3274.

According to your submission your business plan has not been fully financed. What funding did you receive last year and how much have you been given this year? What areas are missing out? You spoke about your 27 partnerships, and we got positive feedback from district councillors in Newry. Can you give me an update on what you are doing in Larne, Carrick and Newtownabbey? You are not selling yourselves well enough in those areas. No one speaks about what you do, and I have not seen anything in the local press about you. You must provide additional information, but I am happy to receive that later.

3275.

Prof Norton: There is a disproportionately low participation of inner-city Protestant men in higher education and in some areas of further education. NIBEP has been developing partnerships through its provider bodies. For example, there is a partnership between the Boys' Model School in Belfast, the East Antrim Institute of Further and Higher Education and the University of Ulster. That partnership is aimed in particular at that under-represented group; it points out the opportunities and the routes through further education to higher education; and it has links to major local employers. It is targeted at a specific group and is grounded in informing the pupils, the schools and their parents. Interestingly, parents are strongly engaged in the initiative - they have great aspirations for their children.

3276.

We foster very specifically targeted initiatives with local authorities, schools and industry; that is one of the strengths of having the local business education partnership (BEP) network. That initiative involved a Newtownabbey business education partnership, and although it might not have received much publicity its work is continuing. There is a similar initiative in Larne with FG Wilson (Engineering) Ltd. Practical steps are being taken and that information might address your concerns. It is important that action is focused on certain areas.

3277.

Mr Smart: Our mentoring programme, which we are piloting in two schools in north Belfast, is another example of encouraging young people to go to university. We are in partnership with Deloitte & Touche, which provides six consultants. They act as mentors to young people who are on the cusp of getting five poor GCSEs or five good GCSEs or who are on the cusp of getting two or three mediocre A levels rather than three good A levels, which would allow them to go to university. We are happy to report that Deloitte & Touche will double the number of consultants and that Belfast City Council will provide 10 additional people. We hope to expand the programme. These role models go into schools to assist young people with their future life choices and their exams.

3278.

This year we put in an ambitious and challenging business plan for finances. We wanted to expand our activity significantly and we sought an additional £900,000 to spend on programmes for this year. To date, £200,000 has been spent on programmes in schools through Industry Matters/NISTRO. We have an additional £300,000, so we have a shortfall of roughly £600,000 for our activities. As we have a remit letter from two Departments asking us to set up the organisation and to prepare a business plan for the next three years, we are disappointed. However, we are working closely with both Ministers and with officials to look at other ways of securing this funding for years two and three of the plan.

3279.

Prof Norton: It is correct that there is strong participation of women in higher and further education. Unfortunately, - and this is a broad generalisation because the detail is more complicated - women's participation is not as strong in the vocational higher education that underpins a knowledge-based economy. That is a problem. Women may have problems in up-skilling when they return to work after raising a family. There are matters in women's education that must be addressed, although their priority is at issue.

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