COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

2490.

Mr Reaney: In discussion with the Committee Clerk we agreed that there were four areas where it may be useful to make some comment. You have already received a lengthy written submission from us.

2491.

The first issue is the future training needs in the Craigavon area. As has already been stated, Craigavon is the largest industrial base outside Greater Belfast. We have the largest concentration of manufacturing. One weakness in our manufacturing base is that it is largely, but not solely, dependent on traditional industries such as engineering, food processing and textiles, areas that are all under threat. The whole of Ireland has had significant job losses, particularly in textiles.

2492.

We are looking to future training needs. Like other areas, we want to move away from our dependence on traditional industries to opening up the capacity among our workforce and local people to provide the potential for new inward investment from the new technologies, ICT, pharmaceuticals, health, electronics, telecommunications and so forth. We perceive a major need for future training in the new technologies. We want a workforce that is ready and a training system that feeds into those new technologies. In 2000 Craigavon Borough Council commissioned a study in which 100 local companies were surveyed; 67% of respondents found it difficult to recruit people with the right skills. In their view that issue rated third in importance for future development. They also referred to the competitiveness of the market place and the strength of sterling as obstacles to growth and expansion. We are fortunate in having one of the lowest unemployment rates in Northern Ireland. That is a blessing, but it creates difficulties in providing the labour supply, which is a factor that we need to consider as we move forward in training needs.

2493.

The second issue is the future of our further education colleges. The Upper Bann Institute is one of the key drivers for the future delivery of our local training needs. It is moving increasingly to a client-­driven system where it is responding to local needs by identifying gaps in the market and adopting a flexible approach. We see the institute as playing a key role in the years ahead.

2494.

The institute is starting to turn its attention to the new technologies and is developing courses to meet the needs of those industries. It has recently been identified as an ICT centre of excellence in Northern Ireland.

2495.

We are keen to increase linkages between further education colleges and universities. The Upper Bann Institute provides foundation degree courses that feed into the University of Ulster. However, that should be extended, perhaps with links to Queen's University, and possibly a university satellite campus in the area to support local industry.

2496.

In 1999 the Upper Bann Institute established a business-oriented department, Training Direct. This is an organisation within an organisation that seeks to devise programmes and training to meet the needs of local businesses.

2497.

When we look at the further education sector it is important to recognise that two competing issues need to be balanced. The first is the ability of the sector to be responsive to local needs and the second is to have a strategic approach at a Northern Ireland level. This would ensure that we are not going off in different directions and missing opportunities that a coherent strategy could provide.

2498.

The third issue is the linkage between Government, education, training and industry. In Northern Ireland some £2 billion is spent on education and training. However, there is minimal investment in identifying future training needs and issues, which leads to an over and under-supply situation. In linking Government with industry, there should be an increasingly coherent approach to matching those skills. There should be stronger links at a regional level between the various Government Departments and particularly the new economic development agency.

2499.

The mayor has already referred to the Greater Craigavon Partnership; the director of the Upper Bann Institute and the chief executive of the Southern Education and Library Board sit on its board. By using this economic development forum, and through local networking and contacts, we seek to influence, and be influenced by, the education and training world.

2500.

The fourth issue concerns examples of good training practice in the Craigavon area. I would like to focus on one company in particular, NACCO Materials Handling, which has identified how the Training Direct initiative at the Upper Bann Institute can work with industry. You will be seeing its representatives later this afternoon and they will give you their perspective.

2501.

NACCO is a large company employing approx­imately 800 people. It mostly manufactures forklift trucks for export. Training Direct has been working with NACCO to develop courses which fit with their needs and the scheduling of their shift systems, which is an important issue for the company. They supply courses in computer literacy, electrical engineering, fabrication, welding, programming and engineering, and a BTEC national certificate in engineering, which is delivered on Saturday mornings so that employees can be released for training. Some 142 employees have undertaken courses through this initiative, which demonstrates the significant impact the institute's approach has had on a local employer.

2502.

Many other companies are involved with Training Direct - Moy Park, Ulster Carpet Mills, Tayto, Rush Manufacturing, Saville's Motors and so on. We find that this type of linkage between an institute and local industry is very successful and we commend it to other colleges and industries in Northern Ireland.

2503.

Ms Kelly: There should be more input by colleges such as the Upper Bann Institute into the care and nurturing of young people in areas such as parenting and home management skills. It is not simply about economic resources - it is also about personal development.

2504.

Something must be done about the supposed stigma of "going to the tech". There is a perception that people only go there because they have failed in the grammar school sector. A promotional and PR exercise is needed to showcase the achievements of people who attend further education colleges. It is not quite pastoral care, rather a holistic approach to young people. That vital component is missing in some colleges.

2505.

Mr Hatch: The Committee, and higher education in general, fits in to the top end of the system. I want to see "seamless" education, where people can move from an academic career to a professional career without stigma.

2506.

There are budget limitations. In the light of the foot-and-mouth crisis it will be even tighter in future years. It is important that the Committee looks closely at value for money. There are 17 further education colleges in Northern Ireland and rather than all colleges competing for similar courses, colleges should be identified which can provide the highest standards of delivery in each area.

2507.

The Upper Bann Institute, for example, has been nominated as an ICT centre of excellence by the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment and engineering runs a very close second. The institute could handle higher level ICT and it could also become a centre of excellence for engineering. Specific funding should be directed to this type of system. If another college has expertise in a certain subject, funding should be directed towards that.

2508.

We would like the Committee to consider the removal of capping, which has been a problem that has inhibited the growth of the institute.

2509.

Mr Reaney mentioned linkages with the University of Ulster. We would like to develop links with Queen's University, but there are difficulties in encouraging Queen's to look at this area and provide research and development for industry. This should apply to established and future industries.

2510.

Careers guidance has been mentioned. The problem is that careers teachers in further education colleges, and more especially in grammar schools, tell us that students, rather than getting out and examining the wider world, should look at other options. Students tend to turn to the soft options - for example, business studies - and at the end of their studies they cannot find jobs. On the other hand, there is a shortage of engineers, nurses and psychiatrists, and there are shortages in the hospitality industry. As soon as students leave the care departments in Banbridge and Lurgan, they are employed. There are also shortages in this area.

2511.

The furniture design department at the Lurgan campus is unique to Northern Ireland. It produces excellent work and we have a history of furniture design because Allwoods have manufactured in the area for generations. If any of you have an opportunity to visit the Lurgan campus, you should, to see the standard of workmanship and design. It is an eye-opener.

2512.

The Chairperson: Thank you. That was a very useful and broad introduction.

2513.

Mr Carrick: Mr Reaney, in your presentation you referred to examples of good training practice in the Training Direct model at the Upper Bann Institute. Your submission stated that funding should be given to establish a business unit in each further education institute, similar to models in the regional technical colleges in the South of Ireland. That would provide a one-stop shop for companies or economic development bodies and would create a system of traditional and tailor-made courses. Could you elaborate on Training Direct? Does the Training Direct model reflect your submission?

2514.

Mr Reaney: The Upper Bann Institute would be best suited to clarify that and representatives of its board of governors are sitting beside me. My understanding is that it does embrace that. As I indicated, Training Direct is a business-oriented outward-looking organisation that goes out to see what industry wants. It is in its infancy and will evolve and develop, and it may well move to a point where it can be more comprehensive in the services that it provides, along the lines of our submission. This is something which should be en­couraged and supported, not only locally but also at a regional level in terms of how colleges might be supported in order to develop that model and expand it.

2515.

Mr Hatch: This is not a business unit of 500, 1,000 or 10,000 square feet, but a business department within the Upper Bann Institute that directly benefits the development of business as a whole. It is not a business-building unit.

2516.

Mr Dallat: You have praised the Dixon plan highly but you have made no reference to literacy and numeracy problems in the work place. Is there any evidence to suggest that you have been spared the excesses of literacy and numeracy problems that the rest of Northern Ireland experiences, or are they here in Craigavon also?

2517.

Mr Crowe: As an education board member, and as a member of the boards of governors of local primary schools, secondary schools and colleges, I can say that literacy and numeracy are still severe problems. We must get back to basics, as politicians in England have said on a number of occasions. First, we do not have a proper nursery education system. This issue has been toyed with - play areas and so on. A start must be made at nursery schools and carried into primary schools, because by the time children reach the second tier, it is too late.

2518.

Moy Park has had problems in this area, mainly with people from outside the area. Moy Park runs special evening courses for its own staff. As a member of the Association of Northern Ireland Education and Library Boards, I know that this is a big problem throughout Northern Ireland and steps are being taken to try to do something about it.

2519.

Changes in education and the curriculum have put teachers under incredible pressure. Because they have to make reports on so many issues, they have too much clerical work to allow them to get on with the job of teaching.

2520.

Ms Kelly: The mayor has covered the Moy Park situation, and no doubt the firm's representatives will tell you more. My point is that early education happens on the mother's or father's knee. That is where there has been a difficulty. There is a generation of adults who are parents who can neither read nor write, or do not value reading and writing skills. That problem must be addressed, along with the issue of ensuring that libraries and books are accessible. One of my teachers said that a child should be encouraged from the moment that he or she can grasp a book. We need that sort of parenting because it is valuable to a young person's development. The skills can then be passed on to the next generation. As elsewhere, literacy is a problem here.

2521.

Mr J Kelly: Thank you for your presentation and for inviting us here. The Fasttrack to IT (FIT) scheme in Dublin interests me. I presume that you have looked at it and if so, have you entered into any joint ventures with the people involved to try to assimilate the ideas or mirror the success that they have had?

2522.

Mr Reaney: The Upper Bann Institute is pursuing that issue but I am not up to date on it. In principle, however, the council would support those kinds of linkages.

2523.

Mr Crowe: The Upper Bann Institute has one of the best centres. It has the latest equipment and all the lecturers and people involved are top-notchers. We also have our arm's-length company, the Craigavon Industrial Development Organisation (CIDO). Its technology centre in Lurgan is on a par with the further and higher education institute. We are taking the issue seriously. A number of individuals and companies in this area have been pioneers in information technology and the drawing up of systems. We have been forced to cater for that situation, and I believe that we are catering well.

2524.

Mr Byrne: Given that this is such a strong industrial area and the fact - as has been mentioned - that there is a bottleneck of skills, have the mayor or his colleagues any views on modern apprenticeships and technical skills training?

2525.

Mr Crowe: I am glad you mentioned that because I intended to raise it myself. I am a trained mechanical and electrical engineer. I served my time in Belfast. I started off at five shillings per week and I had to pay my train fare out of that. When I was finished I would have had £4 or £5 at the very most.

2526.

I ran a motor business for 48 years. When a young fellow came to work for me I made it a condition that he had to attend the day release schemes at "the tech". I went through that system myself. I had to go to the tech and over some 10 years I took many extra subjects. I found that experience invaluable in later years when I was running my own business. We must return to that. The engineers and workmen of today can hardly drive a nail in straight. They need experience, and they need to get it right from the start. Today's fitters and motor mechanics are able to fit a new part; however, they are not able to fix an old part. We need to have skilled people who are capable of doing this work for the benefit of everyone.

2527.

Mr Hatch: I receive engineering books and they detail a shortage of hands-on engineers. We have people who might have degrees in mechanical engineering, but if you set them down at a circuit board to sort out a problem, they would not have a clue. They do not have the mental agility and manual dexterity.

2528.

Some training and employment agencies have been set up and privatised and they deal with clerical and other staff and there is some credibility in terms of those agencies that are validating courses for them. It is possible to go to a further education college, do a course or two on training and recruitment, set up on your own and then get somebody else to validate you. It does not mean very much. The proof of the pudding is when an employer hires someone with a certificate which states that he has done x, y and z. The employer then puts him down to do a job and he does not know where to start.

2529.

The Government needs to look at the validation of apprenticeships, and we should start using the word "apprenticeship". Modern apprenticeships confuse employers. They think that if someone has spent four years doing x, y and z, it means a lot. If we start splitting off into one- or two-man businesses which then start training people and claim that they are skilled to do x, y and z, it does not mean much and it is ruining the good name of perfectly good providers of that training.

2530.

Mr Beggs: It is interesting that this borough has one of the lowest levels of unemployment. Have you learned any lessons through your contacts? Have local organisations been forced to go out and address people in the community who do not have basic educational skills? Have any lessons been applied here which, because of the urgency of finding employable people, can be passed on to other parts of Northern Ireland? You are at the coalface and you could facilitate development.

2531.

Mr Reaney: I will respond by using an example from one of our local companies, Moy Park, which operates a factory shift system. In terms of tapping into the potential market, its shifts have been designed to be family-friendly. It has had to be flexible in the timings of its shifts and it almost has an open house arrange­ment. Moy Park has adapted its shift systems to suit the times that people, especially mothers, are available to work. It has short shifts and unusual shifts that attract people to the company.

2532.

Some companies have made initiatives of this kind, finding out where the potential is and tapping into it. Companies are looking beyond our area in a bid to attract people to either commute or to live here. The council is promoting Craigavon and recommending it as an attractive place in which to live, thereby creating a bigger labour pool for local firms.

2533.

We would like to see available jobs rising in quality. Many jobs are available at the lower end of the industrial scale but we would like to see an expansion into technical, engineering and ICT skills. People who currently live here and commute to their work places would then have the option of jobs in the area.

2534.

Mr Hatch: The Upper Bann Institute and the T&EA went into areas of Brownlow, where "boat" people and Belfast people with no skills lived, who perhaps had an unemployment history going back generations. They have conducted education courses suited to those people so that they are employable. More and more of those people are coming back into the work place because they were provided with on-the-spot, tailor-­made education.

2535.

Mr Crowe: I am involved with one of the community companies, Brownlow Ltd, and several organis­ations have identified people who are unemployed and/or long-term unemployed, even unemployable. Using European money, they have been sent to Germany and France to allow them to see what is going on elsewhere, and they have come back changed people. Some people originally came with Goodyear, lost their job and did not get another one. These people need to be retrained and we are working with them through several different organisations, and there has been some success.

2536.

The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee, I thank you for your submission, your presentation, and for taking questions. It has been very interesting, and we wish you well in your continuing efforts in Craigavon.

2537.

Mr Crowe: Thank you. We wish you well in your task. We are sold on education, improvement and doing everything we can to help all the people of Northern Ireland.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 3 May 2001

Members present:

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Mr R Hutchinson

Mr J Kelly

Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:

Mrs S Turbitt )                     North American Coal
Miss C Corey )                     Company  Organisation

2538.

The Chairperson: I would like to welcome representatives from the North American Coal Company Organisation (NACCO). We have with us Suzanne Turbitt, the human resources officer, and Caroline Corey, the training and development officer. We are grateful to you for coming and we are interested in getting the angle from your own company, which is a substantial American-­owned inward investor in Northern Ireland, and to see what perspective that brings to the relationship between training and broader economic developments.

2539.

Perhaps you could make a brief introduction and we could then proceed to questions.

2540.

Mrs Turbitt: We are part of the NACCO Materials Handling Group Inc and we provide design, engineering, manufacturing and administrative support for Hyster and Yale brand lift trucks, which are sold throughout the world. Our head office is in Portland, Oregon.

2541.

The NACCO Materials Handling Group has 15 manufacturing locations in nine countries. In Europe, Africa and the Middle East, the NACCO Materials Handling Group employs over 3,000 people in our manufacturing, sales and marketing locations. Craigavon is the largest, most vertically integrated facility worldwide, representing 15% of the group's turnover. Construction commenced on a greenfield site in August 1979 and was completed in April 1981. The present workforce comprises some 800 employees. The plant has the capacity to build more than 90 trucks a day. In the previous six years the company has invested in the region of £40 million in capital equipment.

2542.

Our manufacturing operations include CNC machining, robotic welding systems, CNC and laser profile cutters, hydraulic presses and tool manufacture. We have painting processes, a hydraulic cylinder plant, transmissions plant and assembly operations. We have stores and shipping departments, and supporting service departments. I hope this gives you an overview of the company and its operations.

2543.

Mr Beggs: As the company is part of an international group, do you think that any lessons can be learned in Northern Ireland by comparing our system of further and higher education with the systems that you have experienced in other parts of the world? Are there areas where you think that improvements could be made to our system in terms of links between education, training and industry?

2544.

Miss Corey: Our Nijmegen facility follows the German model, and many apprentices come into the organisation to be trained for the NACCO Materials Handling Group. However, in Craigavon, we find that we have to tailor our market and operations to suit the requirements of the apprenticeship. That is one area where we could learn from other practices.

2545.

Mr Beggs: Do you think that modern apprenticeships need to be tailored more towards the needs of the company instead of following set criteria?

2546.

Miss Corey: Yes. We have some difficulty with meeting the requirements of the NVQ Level 3 apprenticeship.

2547.

Mr Carrick: I would like to go into that issue a little more. The company was founded in 1979 on a greenfield site with 800 employees. What have you experienced in the process of establishing your 800-strong workforce? What difficulties have you encountered, and how did you overcome those difficulties in order to obtain the skilled employees that you need? What links have you established with training organisations? I am particularly interested in local organisations such as the Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education. Do you find that those organisations are useful to you, or do you have to look beyond the local training establishments to get the level of skill that you need?

2548.

Mrs Turbitt: The plant currently has 800 employees; this would not have been the case when the plant was established in 1979. We had some problems recruiting semi-skilled and skilled operatives. The company has, however, taken measures to address the problem. We work closely with Training Direct at the Upper Bann Institute in relation to areas such as CNC training and welding.

2549.

Mr Carrick: Do you provide in-house training, or are people trained externally?

2550.

Mrs Turbitt: We train employees to a large extent in-house but we have also tried to source external training. Depending on the nature of the job, we may try to train people prior to coming into the work place.

2551.

Mr Carrick: Do you find that that is more cost-efficient, or did you do that out of necessity?

2552.

Mrs Turbitt: I do not think that it is more cost-efficient. We would take this option out of necessity.

2553.

Miss Corey: It was necessary to use external training for welders. We needed welders so we had to put a training programme in place outside the company. We introduced a lifelong learning initiative in 1999 as part of the company's career development scheme. That aims to help people to focus on their training and career development, and it helped us to establish links with the local colleges, especially the Upper Bann Institute and its Training Direct programme. The colleges have been very flexible and provide courses to suit shift patterns. For example, they will run the same course twice a week so that people can attend the class that suits their working hours.

2554.

The training programme has also afforded the company a win-win situation, in that people attend courses in their own time, while the company provides the funding for the courses. Many of the people involved in the first programme were interested in CNC machining. Those people would have traditionally been unskilled workers in assembly areas who had decided that they wanted to move into semi-skilled roles such as CNC machining. The Upper Bann Institute provided courses for these people. The company, therefore, had a wider pool from which to recruit CNC machinists. That is all done in-house, and the company must move things forward because there are difficulties in recruiting CNC machinists outside of that pool. It is an industry-based initiative.

2555.

Mr Dallat: Do companies have an important role to play in widening access to education and training, and developing an entrepreneurial culture in business?

2556.

Miss Corey: Companies need to be flexible and have an important role to play in helping individuals to develop their skills.

2557.

Mr Dallat: Does training help to break down unfortunate titles such as "unskilled", "semi-skilled" and all the terms we use to differentiate people?

2558.

Miss Corey: Training gives people the opportunity to develop themselves. That development will break down labels such as "unskilled" workers. Companies are moving towards a more technological age; for example, in the past year almost 200 traditionally unskilled workers from our company undertook computer literacy courses, which helped them to move up a stage. The organisation also benefits in that if it introduces technology to the shop floor, individuals are skilled and ready.

2559.

Mr Dallat: Is there an important spin-off for the company with regard to how long employees stay with their employers?

2560.

Mrs Turbitt: The average employee service is eight years. However, we have many long-service employees, some with 20 years' service. We try to provide opportunities for employees to develop within the organisation. This has a positive effect with regard to company loyalty. NACCO has operatives - we do not classify in terms of semi-skilled, skilled, or non-skilled workers. We promote multiskilling and we encourage operatives to train in many operations, thereby increasing their skills and flexibility.

2561.

Mr Dallat: I am referring to the terms that you used.

2562.

Miss Corey: The company differentiates between assembly operations and manufacturing operations. The traditional terms were "unskilled" and "semi-skilled".

2563.

Mrs Nelis: Your company manufactures the entire forklift truck operation. Do you recruit young people straight from school, for example, 16 year olds? Do you offer them skills training and do you allow them to continue their education through day release or whatever?

2564.

There is a skills shortage in engineering. Everyone seems to be directed into the area of information technology. How many engineers does your firm turn out? What other professional skills or trades does your company give to young people coming straight from school? What are the benefits? Would it be an improvement if 16 year olds went straight into a firm and were given an apprenticeship, for example, in a particular engineering skill while simultaneously pursuing the academic needs of that particular profession? Is that working in your firm? Could training be improved?

2565.

Mrs Turbitt: Our young recruits are usually at least 18 years old. We operate a two and three shift pattern, five days a week, with apprentices being the only exception. We also offer year-long placements for students, and we sponsor student bursaries whereby we sponsor a student through university financially and give them the opportunity to gain experience within the company, with the end result that they are in a strong position to secure employment.

2566.

Miss Corey: We currently have eight modern apprentices, three in maintenance, which is focused on engineering, and one in our tool room. It is useful to have apprentices in these departments and the gain to them is an engineering qualification.

2567.

They are given day release to attend the Upper Bann Institute. They study for a BTEC HNC in mechanical and manufacturing engineering and then go on to NVQ Level 3 in production engineering. That works well in departments such as maintenance and tool making. However, in other engineering sectors we found that we could not provide what was needed to attain NVQ Level 3. At the end of their apprenticeship we cannot guarantee that they will move into an engineering role.

2568.

Mrs Nelis: Do operators form the bulk of your workforce?

2569.

Miss Corey: Yes.

2570.

Mrs Nelis: Are we talking about low skills?

2571.

Miss Corey: There are different levels of skills. CNC machinists and welders are skilled.

2572.

Mrs Turbitt: We have a considerable number of engineers, some of whom are graduates. Alternatively, an individual may come into the organisation at the age of 18, be trained throughout their employment, gain various skills and work their way up to the position of engineer. There are therefore various routes to becoming an engineer within the company.

2573.

Mr J Kelly: As a traditional time-served apprentice, I am interested in the engineering side. You mentioned the difficulties between skilled and semi-skilled operators and problems with apprenticeships. What difficulties do you have with apprenticeships?

2574.

Miss Corey: Maintenance and tool making are not termed "skilled" in our organisation. We can bring in a student and train him as a craftsman.

2575.

CNC machinists are semi-skilled. At the end of an individual's apprenticeship, he is still deemed an operator.

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