COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING

Report on the Inquiry into Education and Training for Industry (Continued)

2403.

Ms McWilliams: Endowments here tend to be made through chairs, rather than posts at the more junior level. In the past, private industry has either set up a new type of chair, or put a few extra chairs in for research purposes. Numbers of teaching staff here tend to be driven by the quantities of graduates wishing to study. Best is talking about a different approach, where the firms come in and say "We will set aside a substantial sum to recruit these staff". That is a different type of experience.

2404.

American experience lends itself to that - or has done so in the past. You are talking about a cultural and organisational change. Has the Northern Ireland Economic Council (NIEC) had discussions with university leaders?

2405.

Mrs Trewsdale: Not directly. The idea was that in some cases, employees of the firms themselves should enter universities to help with the practical teaching side. It is a two-way flow, which occurs in Northern Ireland to a certain extent through the teaching company scheme. However, we have not been in direct negotiations with the two universities on the issue. As you say, there are examples both at Queen's and the University of Ulster of firms which have donated money for named chairs, which they see as prestigious. Neither of the universities would be averse if a company came along with several hundred thousand pounds for the purpose of employing more lecturers. It is a matter of getting them to do it.

2406.

Mr Gough: The three key elements are the firms, the educational institutions and Government funding. Even in Massachusetts, the key funder was the Govern­ment rather than firms. Best cites other examples such as Taiwan, Singapore and the Republic of Ireland where that was also true.

2407.

Ms McWilliams: I understood that, but I also understood that it was very much the firms themselves, in partnership with the Government, who took the initiative. Our tendency here has been for the Government to promote and encourage firms to do that. Much of the teaching company and business education partnerships have sent the teachers out, but the flip side - sending the companies in - has not happened. From what I understand, it is an experience that we could learn a great deal from.

2408.

Mr Gough: He quotes another example, the Questor Centre at Queen's. One reason he liked that model was the way it brought companies in and sent students out; it was a two-way process.

2409.

Mr Beggs: At an Industrial Development Board seminar I attended about six months ago, the deputy principal of a local further education college stood up to say how pleased he was to be there, for it was the first time he had ever been invited to an event connected with the board. There seems to be a clear need to improve links between industry and the further education sector. If I am not mistaken, you said in your report that you are considering undertaking research into further education and economic development, or at least recommending that there be increased monitoring of the area. Have you done it? Are you, or anyone else, currently carrying out work on assessing the links between the further education sector and industry?

2410.

Mr Gough: We have not started it, although it is on our work programme. The NIEC will soon be discussing whether to take that project forward. I know that some work has been carried out in the South on the institutes of technology, which have a key role in economic development. In Michael Best's report, the lack of guidance for the Northern Ireland further education sector came out very strongly. I remember that it struck him very forcefully when we were meeting people.

2411.

Mr Beggs: How far away is your own report? Might it be longer than six months or a year?

2412.

Mr Gough: The NIEC has not even discussed whether it will take it forward yet.

2413.

Mr Beggs: I am sorry. I see that it is in the early stages. Do you recognise that it is an important area for you to consider?

2414.

Mr Gough: Absolutely.

2415.

Mr Dallat: How badly are further education colleges out of synch with the needs of industry? I should appreciate a frank answer, for we hear criticism, but no one has been brave enough to come out and say it straight. Perhaps we should leave Belfast and the north-west out of this, for they seem to have gone their own way, but it applies to the other 15 colleges. How closely do they relate to the needs of industry? What must be done to respond seriously to the contents of Prof Best's report?

2416.

Mrs Trewsdale: Although you used the word "criticism", I do not think that Prof Best is criticising the further education colleges. His comment is that they receive little guidance. He does not say that it is their fault, but that they need guidance from Government, or whoever, in the crucial areas of manpower.

2417.

Mr Dallat: I apologise. I put it badly. I was referring exactly to that paragraph. It is very serious.

2418.

Mrs Trewsdale: Yes. As far as Prof Best and the council is concerned - [Interruption]

2419.

Mr Dallat: It goes on to say that they lack co-ordination too. Are they all singing from the same hymn sheet, or are they all doing their own thing?

2420.

Mrs Trewsdale: The council does not necessarily know that, because it has not examined further education colleges in sufficient detail to understand what they are doing. In answering Prof McWilliams's question, we were concentrating on engineering and technology graduates. However, Prof Best has highlighted another part of the story, which is the skilled workforce idea. It is not simply the case that we only want graduates. Skilled non-graduates are also needed to work in industry. He saw the further education colleges as the source of those skilled - and I do not use this phrase in a disparaging way - non-graduates. Did we not discuss this last time we were here?

2421.

A good, educated and skilled workforce is required. We do not mean that they must all be graduates. Perhaps the idea he is getting at is that the further education colleges are not in a position to produce the type of skilled workforce that is necessary, because they are not receiving guidance as to what type of skilled workforce is required. That is how I read it.

2422.

Mr Gough: The key message from Prof Best's report is that the whole process of skill formation must be integrated. He even goes back to schools to involve primary school teachers as well as the further and higher education sectors, and industry. He emphasised over and over again that it must be a concerted and integrated approach. He thought that the further education sector was not sufficiently involved in this process.

2423.

The Chairperson: Prof Best said that little guidance is given to the further education colleges. I think that that is true, but if the council looks at the further education issue in detail in the future, one question to ask is, "Is Prof Best's idea of guidance compatible with the existing model of incorporation, which leaves the 17 colleges free-standing from the Department?"

2424.

It strikes me that we might be in danger of having the worst of all possible worlds. It would be better if we moved in one of two directions. Either the sector is centralised again and administered and funded tightly from the centre, or it is accepted that we are using a market-based model of training and indeed funding, which means that money follows the students. In the latter instance it is accepted that the colleges are allowed to specialise, which will probably mean that Belfast Institute of Further and Higher Education's activities are radically different in nature and scale from what some of the other colleges do. It is even possible that some of the colleges will not survive. There is coherence in both those models, but I suspect that at present there is a bit of a muddle, as in so many things. It is part direction and partly a laissez-faire market approach, and it is not working. May be that is more of a comment than a question.

2425.

Mrs Trewsdale: As Mr Gough said, the council has not looked at this area in detail yet. As you know, the council is loathe to comment on something that it has not looked at in detail or that has not gone through its procedures.

2426.

All Best is saying is that the colleges have potential; he felt that they were not getting the necessary guidance. You talk about your market-based model, but the other way to look at it is to say that opportunity costs. It is perhaps better for certain colleges to specialise in producing really top-rate skills than for all to do their best. Those are my own thoughts, not those of the NIEC.

2427.

Ms McWilliams: I do not necessarily agree with your approach of presenting those options as mutually exclusive. I believe that one could both centralise and specialise with a co-ordinated and integrated approach. At the moment the universities and the further education sector are reaching out to the colleges with some courses, but they are not working in a very integrated fashion regarding the strategic vision of where they want to go with skills.

2428.

We have heard evidence that the teaching of IT in schools is a concern, with a lack of attraction at that early level that has not been the experience in the United States. If you had a much more integrated regional approach between universities, colleges and schools it would be possible both to co-ordinate and specialise, in what would still be very much a market model.

2429.

Mr Byrne: I found the Best contribution both interesting and challenging. I agree that the further education sector lacks co-ordination. Perhaps you might address the issue of how we go about matching industrial culture with educational culture. All of us who have been in the education system know that we were so shackled by administration that we did not relate to it much. However, we were driven by systems that curtailed creativity and the connection with entrepreneurs trying to run a business, train people and get on with it.

2430.

I believe that Best also makes reference to this issue that there has been research and development in Northern Ireland, but how can we make it more practically relevant to the needs of industry and technology? I have been heartened in recent weeks. I know someone who has spent £300,000 of his own money developing a project in his own garage. It is draining the resources of his main­stream business, and the frustration he has experienced has been quite unbelievable. The only light at the end of the tunnel has been that the Industrial Research Technology Unit (IRTU) has recently been very helpful.

2431.

I invite your comments about how we are to achieve relationships between the educational culture and the person running the firm, who needs research and development at a practical level and who is also looking for a young person to go to work in industry and adopt its culture.

2432.

Mrs Trewsdale: I agree that, traditionally, the education system has always been seen to be divorced from industry apart from when we had the old technical colleges and apprenticeships. My lame answer to that is that, from the evidence that the Best Report presents, they seem to have succeeded in doing this in the Republic of Ireland. Their educational and industrial system has very similar roots to our own. We talk about Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan, and one could argue that there are fundamental industrial-­cultural and educational-cultural differences. However, they seem to have pulled it off in the Republic of Ireland. We could have a look at the way that they have gone about it.

2433.

Mr Byrne: That is where the regional technology colleges have made a major contribution. Therefore, we can gain from their experience with regard to how that can be applied to our further education colleges.

2434.

Mrs Trewsdale: Technology colleges became unfashionable, and many in the United Kingdom have become universities. It is seen to be better to be a university than a technical college. The idea that the technology industry is somehow inferior is something that runs through culture. It is the old idea of blue collar versus white collar - you get a degree and then move on, and you will not have to dirty your hands. It is not a case of dirtying your hands with oil these days: we are talking about new technology.

2435.

Mr Gough: The important element that comes across in Best's case studies in Massachusetts and other regions is leadership. That is why he emphasises the need for this type of integrated plan coming from Government. It does not mean that the Government are the leaders in the process, but they have to set the divisions and the culture within which the plan can be taken forward.

2436.

The main elements are leadership and the willing­ness to get people involved from primary, secondary and further education, universities, and within companies - the concept of invisible colleges - to bring all these together into a dynamic plan. He is saying that we in Northern Ireland have a rather static approach to skills. The Northern Ireland Skills Taskforce and the monitoring survey tell us what we have, and where the shortages are, but it has yet to be turned into a dynamic plan, and that is what the Best Report is seeking.

2437.

Mr Byrne: Do administrative systems constrain people in education, in Government and in the Civil Service? Mr Gough said that the Best Report talks about role model leaders promoting a dynamic interaction involving those in firms, those in education and those with the necessary skills.

2438.

Mrs Trewsdale: I am a bit lost as to what the question is. Are you talking about the idea of GCSE and A-levels? Is that what you mean by rigidity?

2439.

Mr Byrne: I mean the general administrative systems that we have in colleges, in universities or in public administration. Are the systems so rigid that they do not provide for the unlocking of creativity?

2440.

The Chairperson: Perhaps you could be a bit more specific. I thought that you were referring to things like quality assessment of teaching and research assess­ments.

2441.

Mr Byrne: I am not casting any doubt on the intellectual abilities of the people who are in the universities or, for that matter, in the Civil Service or Government agencies. We are so shackled by the administrative mechanisms that we have the stuffing knocked out of us.

2442.

Mr Gough: The Confederation of British Industry published a report on the links with industry and business, and they did point to a problem of too much bureaucracy in universities. They found that that constrained the development of links between the two, especially for small and medium-sized enterprises.

2443.

Ms McWilliams: People used to leave the university once they had engaged in entrepreneurial activities - the university frowned upon it because of the time that it took up. The issue has never been tackled properly. People would resign in order to create their own businesses. In addition, because of the way the research assessment exercises have been carried out, projects that involve applied work do not get as many points as they would if they were involved with an internationally refereed journal. That situation has begun to change only recently, and it has hit Northern Ireland particularly hard in the areas of business and social and economic sciences.

2444.

Dr Birnie: I have to declare an interest there. I agree completely.

2445.

Mrs Trewsdale: Is that what you meant, Mr Byrne?

2446.

Mr Byrne: Yes. I would like to thank my colleague, Monica, for helping me with that point.

2447.

Mrs Trewsdale: I have to declare an interest as well, because of my day job. What Monica is describing comes from central Government. It is not a problem that the countries of the UK can individually influence. In Scotland they have said that there will be no fees for students. It would be wonderful if you could say that there would be no research assessment exercises in Northern Ireland's universities. However, the decision is made by central Government - you do not have direct control over that.

2448.

I agree with Mr Byrne that the situation is a disgrace. At the Queen's University of Belfast, with the environmental science and technology research centre (the Questor Centre), there has been an attempt to encourage the development of links with industry and to sow the seed of new industries.

2449.

Mr Byrne: I will make one more attempt to make the point. Mr Chairperson, you will understand because you were a lecturer at a university. If you are caught up in teaching, there is not enough time for you to take an interest in careers in industry.

2450.

Mrs Trewsdale: That is true, and as Ms McWilliams said, even if they do have time, they are not likely to want to spend their time doing that, because of the pressure that is put on academic staff to produce the four grade four or five publications.

2451.

Mr Gough: The problem is not just the issue of lecturers' involvement but also of students' involvement. We have a world-class research infrastructure. However, we do not have the links with industry via the throughput of students who work in a research environment on industry-relevant projects. We must get lecturers and students more involved.

2452.

Dr Birnie: On page 5 of your submission you say that, in most cases, the issue is not so much the number of graduates who come out of further and higher education, but the absorption of them by industry; the problem is more about demand than supply. Can you elaborate on that point? We have heard similar evidence before. It is important to determine how far that is the case, because if it is it somewhat changes the policies one may wish to adopt.

2453.

Do firms, companies or the private sector bear some responsibility for the problems, in that they are not paying sufficiently high salaries - especially for technologists, engineers, scientists, and so forth? Therefore, the apparent low supply is not surprising and is a rational response by individuals looking at the market signals. Is there much firm evidence as to what is happening here, relative to either the Republic or Great Britain or any other relevant part of the world?

2454.

Mr Gough: You are right about the absorptive capacity of industry. In looking at the whole process of regional development, the main conclusion of Best's report is that we lack entrepreneurial firms. The report quotes an interesting statistic: only 25% of engineering graduates in 1996-97 found jobs in Northern Ireland. There is, therefore, a problem in industry, and that reflects back to the technology management capabilities within industry as another dimension to the whole area of training. The Chairman produced some seminal work on that issue back in the early 1990s.

2455.

The Chairperson: You are flattering me now. Carry on, I am enjoying it.

2456.

Mr Gough: Ten years later, it is still a problem.

2457.

Mr Byrne: We have heard this point before, but the Best report also referred to the deficit in mathematics and science, and the less than enthusiastic approach to those subjects. There is a question about the quality of teaching in mathematics and science in our secondary schools. I know that some lecturers at Queen's University are complaining that they have to take the first six months of a degree course to actually do some A-level mathematics. They feel that that is a great constraint.

2458.

Mrs Trewsdale: To remove my hat as chairman of the Northern Ireland Economic Council and put on my hat as a statistics lecturer at Queen's University, this is one of my personal hobby horses, as Mr Byrne knows. What he says is absolutely true. The decline in the standard of maths among undergraduates - I am talking about GCSE maths here, not A-level maths - is just unbelievable. What does one do about teaching statistics? From our point of view, something is going awfully wrong in the teaching of maths in schools. The universities are not necessarily in a position to find out what that is.

2459.

A recent story in 'The Times' - which I can send to you - was about a simple test for teachers in primary schools who were going to be teaching maths to children. There were 10 questions, and the article recounted how many of the teachers got them wrong. This was simple stuff - not, perhaps, quite primary school level, but first or second form maths that they would have learnt themselves at that stage. This is something that is very close to my heart, and I really lose confidence in proceeding. We taught you O-level maths with statistics, and then you went into second year. Now we have to put on a maths course in first year, to bring the students up to the O-level standard that you had when you came to Queen's.

2460.

Mr Byrne: In the past, the O-level course had trigonometry, algebra and calculus.

2461.

Mrs Trewsdale: Calculus in not taught now at all.

2462.

Mr Byrne: That is what I am saying. GCSE mathematics has been diluted so much that it does not provide the student with any solid underpinning mathematical knowledge.

2463.

Mrs Trewsdale: There is no logical thought. They do not teach students how to think logically. They are not even taught how to follow an argument down a page.

2464.

Mr Dallat: I have an interest in literacy and numeracy, but perhaps at a different level. Are the same arguments made for literacy, as you have just made for numeracy?

2465.

Mrs Trewsdale: Yes. When I mark essays in other subjects that I teach, the illiteracy is quite amazing. One gets colloquialisms written down that are fine in speech, but when they are beautifully written or phonetically spelt, it is quite frightening. It is not necessarily even the content - the handwriting itself is often so atrocious that one cannot read it. You have really got me started on a personal point.

2466.

Mr Dallat: I was dying to ask a question earlier, but I was scared to. What about the poor student who is into the humanities in a big way - are they going to have a hard time in the future if everybody is forced to go down the technology road?

2467.

Mrs Trewsdale: I do not think there is any suggestion of forcing anybody to go down any road. There is definitely room for the humanities. You cannot have a cultured society - and I mean culture with a capital C, as opposed to the new meaning of the word "culture" - without having humanities involved. That would be horrific.

2468.

There are probably quite a few people who, if they were correctly encouraged, would go down the technology road. They may not be very successful on the humanities side because they have a bent towards technology.

2469.

Mr Dallat: I know somebody at university - not in Northern Ireland - who recently went to discuss an MA course and very timorously announced that they would like to study an eighteenth century French author. The tutor immediately went into ecstasy and pulled out books that had been gathering dust for years. However, there are no bursaries, no grants, and no financial support. That person will do the MA, but entirely under their own steam.

2470.

Mrs Trewsdale: We have a Department of Byzantine Studies at Queen's University, and it is very popular. That is going to the other extreme. As for the lack of bursaries, I do not think that that is necessarily just the case in the humanities - or, indeed, obscure humanities. You could argue that the MSc in finance is fairly current. The master's degree in computer science and its applications is a sort of transitional course for humanities graduates and the like. We find, however, that the money is not there these days for our students to get bursaries, even to study what might be regarded as relevant subjects in this argument. There is a shortage all the way round. The money is not floating around for people who want to go off and be finance people and computer experts.

2471.

Mr Byrne: That is probably an issue for us. We have concentrated largely on undergraduate finance, but there is a severe lack of bursaries for people who want to do a master's degree or a PhD. That is vital in relation to creating the intellectual capacity that has suffered very much.

2472.

Mrs Trewsdale: These days we are becoming like America in the sense that you really have to do a master's degree if you want to progress and feel that you have a qualification. We used to deride that and say that the bachelor's degree in Europe was as good, but now students are getting to the stage where they are having to go on to do master's degrees in the various subjects and, as Mr Byrne said, the bursaries are not there.

2473.

The Chairperson: Perhaps I could ask about what has been a fairly vexed topic - the numbers of IT-qualified people, both at graduate and sub-degree level, coming out through the system. On pages 53 and 54 of his paper, Best says that in the Republic the annual output is about 3,100 at degree level and 2,200 at diploma and technician level, whereas here it is 825 degrees and roughly 1,000 higher national diplomas, et cetera. We are running at roughly one third to one quarter of the Republic's rate, which is certainly lower per capita. Is it too little? I say that because it has been controversial. There have been the NIEC reports, John Simpson has been writing in the 'Belfast Telegraph' about it, and the Minister has made various comments.

2474.

Mrs Trewsdale: We are back to the idea that Monica McWilliams was hinting at. If you are going to produce qualified people at graduate level, or even at sub-degree level, you have to have the teachers. They have to be in place in order to increase the numbers. I certainly know that in the case of computer science, both Queen's University and the University of Ulster find it very difficult to recruit staff. Even having recruited them, it is very difficult subsequently to hold them, simply because of the salaries. The demand for good computer staff is so high. There are students who go out and earn £35,000 to £40,000 per year on graduation. That is at the top level, but they are averaging £20,000 or £25,000. When you think of lecturers' salary scales, it is a chicken-and-egg situation. You have to have the teachers to teach. Best seems to think that you can get them. He is fairly cavalier about getting teachers.

2475.

Mr Gough: It depends on whether you want to offer American salaries.

2476.

The Chairperson: We will probably have to declare an interest in that one too.

2477.

Mr Gough: You made a point about the dis­agreement over whether there is a shortage. Best says that that emphasises one of his main conclusions, which is that there needs to be this bottom-up approach involving all the practitioners in any sort of manpower planning or skills auditing exercise. That is needed to avoid that sort of disagreement.

2478.

Mr Byrne: It is important that we put on record our appreciation of the Northern Ireland Economic Council, because over the last ten years it has contributed enormously to critical analysis and evaluation of the economic trends and difficulties that we have experienced. That has been very welcome.

2479.

Mrs Trewsdale: Thank you. As you know, we are under review at the moment, so we very much appreciate your comments. Can you make sure to say that in other places? Although the review looks quite favour­able, it has not been finally concluded. We really appreciate the Committee's support and are very grateful for it.

2480.

The Chairperson: Thank you both for coming, it was extremely helpful. We will try to absorb all the material that you have sent us. It is obviously relevant to both training and research and development. We hope to complete a report by the autumn.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Thursday 3 May 2001

Members present:

Dr Birnie (Chairperson)

Mr Carrick (Deputy Chairperson)

Mr Beggs

Mr Byrne

Mrs Carson

Mr Dallat

Mr R Hutchinson

Mr J Kelly

Mrs Nelis

Witnesses:

Mr F Crowe  )

Ms D Kelly    ) Craigavon Borough Council

Mr A Hatch   )

Mr T Reaney )

2481.

The Chairperson: On behalf of the Committee, I thank Craigavon Borough Council for having us here today, for the excellent lunch we have just enjoyed, and for the very attractive surroundings. It is the first time that the Committee has visited the offices of a district council. It is appropriate that we have come to Craigavon, which probably has the largest concentration of industrial activity outside the Greater Belfast area.

2482.

We are continuing our inquiry and evidence gathering into the Northern Ireland training system. I would like to welcome the mayor, Councillor Fred Crowe, Councillors Arnold Hatch and Dolores Kelly, and Trevor Reaney, chief executive of Craigavon Borough Council. Would you like to make a short statement, after which we can have a discussion?

2483.

Mr Crowe: By way of introduction, it gives me great pleasure to formally welcome you and the members of the Committee to the borough of Craigavon this afternoon. We are delighted that you have chosen Craigavon. I am sure there are many reasons why you have chosen our borough, but I think that your Deputy Chairman, Mr Carrick, may have had a word in your ear. We appreciate your coming here.

2484.

Dr Birnie has already mentioned our large industrial base, and it is a fact that Craigavon is the largest manufacturing base outside Belfast and has been so for some considerable time. In the Regional Development Strategy it has been designated as an area of major growth. No matter where you look, houses and business units are springing up all over the place. We have recently had a major influx of new people coming to live and work in the area.

2485.

We are also fortunate in having a unique education system, the Dixon plan, that exists nowhere else in Northern Ireland. Four members of my family have gone through the system, and being a member of the Southern Education and Library Board for the past four years, I would not change the system for anything else. It is first-class and reaps rich rewards. We also have the Upper Bann Institute of Further and Higher Education, and I was involved in the amalgamation of the colleges in Lurgan, Portadown and Banbridge. Together, these three places offer a service that is second to none in Northern Ireland, and I say that as a former part-time lecturer in engineering at the Belfast College of Technology.

2486.

The council believes that local companies have much to add to your deliberations, and I understand that they will be making a contribution later this afternoon. Recently, a building handed over by the Training and Employment Agency (T&EA) has been added to the Portadown campus of the Upper Bann Institute. Councillor Hatch and I are members of the institute's board of governors. Councillor Hatch has an engineering business that makes heating plants and ventilation equipment. While Councillor Kelly is not a board member, she has a very responsible job involving training. She works in the rehabilitation day care centre here, she has her ear to the ground and knows what is going on.

2487.

We have much to offer in Craigavon, but we do have a shortage of certain skills.

2488.

The further education college works closely with the council, where I was chairman of development for six years. We also have the Greater Craigavon Partnership. The director of the further education college sits on a number of our bodies and he is well versed on what is happening in the area and helps us greatly. Through his work and through the work of the economic development committee we invite local school children, people from the education sector and local companies to the council. It gives young people an opportunity to see what we do.

2489.

For many years I have been a careers guidance fanatic, having run a business for 48 years. I was president of the Association of Northern Ireland Education and Library Boards in 1998-99, where I specialised in education for employment and careers guidance. This has been continued throughout Northern Ireland via the five education and library boards. At present careers guidance is not being tackled properly. Teachers are under pressure and they need to find out what is happening.

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