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COMMITTEE FOR EMPLOYMENT AND LEARNING Present: Dr Esmond Birnie MLA (Chairman) In Attendance: Dr Andrew Peoples Apologies: Mrs Joan Carson MLA The meeting opened at 2.13pm in open session. 1. Apologies Apologies are detailed above. 2. Draft Minutes of 5 September 2002 Agreed. Proposed: Mr Carrick. Seconded: Dr Adamson. 3. Matters Arising The Chairman advised that he had met with the Minister as previously agreed, to discuss possible amendments to the Employment Bill and would update members later in the meeting. 4. Committee Stage of the Employment Bill Members noted further information from the Equality Commission with regard to the definition of the term 'worker' in employment legislation. 2.18pm. Mr McElduff joined the meeting. Members noted a further Assembly Research paper detailing a list of categories which might be included in any definition of 'workers,' and outlining the impact of potential amendments to the Employment Bill on previous and parallel legislation. The Chairman stated that at his recent meeting with the Minister, she had outlined several difficulties with the Committee's proposal to extend the scope of the Employment Bill from 'employees' to 'workers.' Such an amendment, to extend the range of persons eligible for social security benefits, would require consequential amendments to supporting legislation within the remit of the Department for Social Development. An amendment to include 'workers,' some of whom did not pay National Insurance Contributions may also require new legislation to implement a system to compensate employers, as they were currently compensated via the National Insurance scheme. The Minister had again expressed her concerns at the risks attached to delaying the passage of the Bill through the Assembly, in that the necessary supporting subordinate legislation would also be delayed. She had also stated that the Employment Bill included powers to extend the scope of the legislation, if required, in the future and, indeed, her Department had currently put out to consultation two policy documents relating to 'Employment Status in Relation to Statutory Employment Rights' and the 'European Union Commission's proposal for a directive on Working Conditions for Temporary Agency Workers' which would allow views to be assimilated in these areas. The Chairman further stated that widening the scope of the Bill from 'employees' to 'workers' might also require amendment to the Social Security Bill which was currently being considered by the Assembly under accelerated passage. He considered that it was not practical to proceed with widening the scope of the Bill from 'employees' to 'workers,' but that the Committee's Report should highlight the fact that such a proposal would be considered in the future and the Committee would investigate this area further in its deliberations on the consultation documents detailed above. The Chairman also stated his opinion that the Committee should not extend the scope of the Bill relating to the right to request flexible working as, although this was a new right which would not have consequential effects on existing legislation, to do so would create a contrast in the Bill and such issues could also be considered in the current consultations, which could lead to better and more consistent legislation and associated definitions. Mr McElduff enquired about the possibility of delaying the clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Bill to enable members to seek further advice on the reported developments. The majority agreed that, as individual members could table amendments to the Bill as it proceeded through the Assembly, and given the general shortage in time, the Committee should continue with its deliberations to ensure early completion of the Committee Stage. Ms Gildernew sought and received the Chairman's assurance that this would be fully documented in the draft Committee Report on the Bill which needed to be agreed by the Committee before printing. The Chairman welcomed Mr R Gamble and Mr W Caldwell from the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL) to assist members in their scrutiny of the Bill. 3.02pm. Ms Gildernew left the meeting. The Committee commenced formal clause-by-clause consideration of the Employment Bill. Clause 1 (Adoption leave) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 1 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 2 (Paternity leave) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 2 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 3 (Statutory paternity pay) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 3 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Mr Gamble informed members that, contrary to the Minster's letter which was in front of the Committee, the Employment Bill did not contain power to extend employment rights via subordinate legislation in the future. This enabling power was, however, contained in other primary legislation. Clause 4 (Statutory adoption pay) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 4 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 5 (Financial arrangements) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 5 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 6 (Funding of employers' liabilities) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 6 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 7 (Regulations about payment) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 7 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 8 (Decisions and appeals) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 8 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 9 (Power to require information) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 9 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 10 (Penalties: failures to comply) It was proposed by Mr McElduff: 'That 'knowingly' should be inserted before 'fails' in clause 10(1)(a), 10(1)(b), 10(3) and 10(6).' The question was put and the proposed amendment fell as detailed below. The Committee divided: Ayes 1; Noes 4. Ayes: Mr McElduff. Noes: Dr Adamson, Dr Birnie, Mr Carrick, and Mr Hilditch. Abstentions: None. The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 10 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 11 (Penalties: fraud, etc.) It was proposed by Mr McElduff: 'That 'knowingly' should be inserted before 'fraudulently' in clause 11(1), 11(2), 11(3), 11(4) and 11(5).' The question was put and the proposed amendment fell as detailed below. The Committee divided: Ayes 1; Noes 4. Ayes: Mr McElduff. Noes: Dr Adamson, Dr Birnie, Mr Carrick, and Mr Hilditch. Abstentions: None. The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 11 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 12 (Rights during and after maternity leave) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 12 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 13 (Flexible working) It was proposed by Mr McElduff: 'That flexible working be extended to all working parents of disabled children so long as they are dependent.' The question was put and the proposed amendment fell as detailed below. The Committee divided: Ayes 1; Noes 4. Ayes: Mr McElduff. Noes: Dr Adamson, Dr Birnie, Mr Carrick, and Mr Hilditch. Abstentions: None. The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 13 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 14 (Regulations) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 14 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 15 (Amendments and revocations) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 15 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 16 (Commencement) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 16 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 17 (Interpretation) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that clause 17 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Clause 18 (Short Title) It was proposed by Mr McElduff and seconded by Dr Birnie: 'That in Clause 18 'Employment' should be replaced by 'Parental Employment Rights.' The question was put and the amendment agreed as detailed below. The Committee divided: Ayes 3; Noes 2. Ayes: Dr Adamson, Dr Birnie and Mr McElduff. Noes: Mr Carrick and Mr Hilditch. Abstentions: None. Schedule 1 (PENALTIES: PROCEDURE AND APPEALS) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that Schedule 1 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Schedule 2 (AMENDMENTS) The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that Schedule 2 stands part of the Bill.' The question was agreed to. Long Title The question was put: 'That the Committee is content to recommend that the Long Title be agreed.' The question was agreed to. The Clerk was directed to produce a draft Report for consideration at next week's meeting. Action: Clerk The Chairman informed members that the Minister had agreed to extend the deadline for a response on the Committee's considerations of the draft Report and Action Plan from the Taskforce for Employability and Long-Term Unemployment and that this would therefore be considered at next week's meeting. The Committee agreed that the subordinate legislation due to be considered at this week's meeting should be deferred until next week. The Clerk informed members that this may mean that the Committee would not have the opportunity to annul this legislation if members were not content with it. 5. Date, Time and Place of Next Meeting On Thursday 19 September 2002 at 2.00pm in Room 152 Parliament Buildings. The Chairman adjourned the meeting at 4.50pm. Dr Esmond Birnie MLA |