ASSEMBLY AND EXECUTIVE REVIEW COMMITTEE
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
THURSDAY, 18 FEBRUARY 2010
ROOM 21, PARLIAMENT BUILDINGS
Present:
Mr Jimmy Spratt (Chairperson)
Mr Raymond McCartney (Deputy Chairperson)
Mr Alex Attwood
Mr Nigel Dodds
Mr Danny Kennedy
Mr Simon Hamilton
Mr Alex Maskey
Mr Declan O’Loan
In Attendance:
Mr Stephen Graham (Assembly Clerk)
Mr Vincent Gribbin (Assistant Assembly Clerk)
Miss Tara McKee (Clerical Supervisor)
Miss Paula McManus (Clerical Officer)
Mr Christopher McNickle (Clerical Officer)
The meeting opened at 10.46 am in public session.
1. Apologies
Mr Alan McFarland
2. Minutes of Proceedings of meeting held on 9 February 2010
Members agreed the Minutes of Proceedings of the meeting held on 9 February 2010, as amended.
3. Matters arising
Members acknowledged the need to discuss the Local Government (Disqualification) (Amendment) Bill.
Agreed : Members agreed to consider the Local Government (Disqualification) (Amendment) Bill as a substantive item at their meeting on 2 March 2010.
4. Chairperson’s Business
None.
5. Correspondence
Outgoing correspondence
Members noted:
- A letter to the First Minister and deputy First Minister, inviting them to appear before the Committee.
- A letter to the Secretary of State, inviting him to appear before the Committee.
Incoming correspondence
Members noted:
- A letter from the First Minister and deputy First Minister, informing the Committee that they are considering the invitation to appear.
- A letter from the Northern Ireland Office regarding the Agreements, Concordats, Protocols and MOUs with copies attached.
6. Oral Evidence Session – Rt. Hon Shaun Woodward, Secretary of State for Northern Ireland
This session was recorded by Hansard.
6.1 The Chairperson declared the following interest:
- Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board.
The Chairperson invited Members to declare their relevant interests.
Members declared the following interests:
Alex Attwood
- Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board.
Alex Maskey
- Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board.
10.50 am The Secretary of State, the Rt. Hon Shaun Woodward MP, and NIO Officials joined the meeting.
Rt. Hon Shaun Woodward MP
Hilary Jackson – Northern Ireland Office
Anthony Harbinson – Northern Ireland Office
Gareth Johnston – Northern Ireland Office
The Secretary of State made a statement on the devolution of policing and justice powers.
There was a Q & A session.
Agreed: The Secretary of State agreed to provide to the Committee, by close of play on Friday 19 February, a detailed breakdown of the £1.328 billion to be transferred from the budgets of the NIO and the Lord Chancellor’s Department to the Department of Justice, if there was a request for devolution. He also agreed to re-examine, and provide clarity on the status of, each of the seven Agreements, Concordats, Protocols and Memoranda of Understanding.
11.47 am The Secretary of State and the NIO Officials left the meeting. The Chairperson suspended proceedings until 2.30 pm.
7. Oral Evidence Session – First Minister and deputy First Minister
This session was recorded by Hansard.
7.1 The Chairperson declared the following interest:
- Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board.
The Chairperson invited Members to declare their relevant interests.
Members declared the following interests:
Alex Attwood
- Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board.
Alex Maskey
- Member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board.
Declan O’Loan
- Member of the Ballymena District Policing Partnership.
2.34pm The First Minister and deputy First Minister and their advisers joined the meeting.
Rt. Hon Peter Robinson MP
Rt. Hon Martin McGuinness MP
Richard Bullick - Adviser to the First Minister
Michelle Rouse – Adviser to the deputy First Minister
The First Minister and deputy First Minister made opening statements on the devolution of policing and justice powers.
There was a Q & A session.
2.37 pm Nigel Dodds joined the meeting
2.42 pm Declan O’Loan joined the meeting
3.02 pm Alex Attwood joined the meeting
3.39 pm First Minister and deputy First Minister and the OFMDFM officials left the meeting.
3.39 pm Alex Maskey left the meeting
8. Devolution of Policing and Justice Matters
This session was recorded by Hansard.
Committee Briefing Paper 11/08/09 – Thirty Second Revision – Consideration of the Category Two List of Issues
8.2.A Is there a need to endorse Recommendation 22 of the Committee’s original report (that the post of Attorney General should be a full time role, at least initially)?
Members reflected on comments made by the First Minister and deputy First Minister about the role of the Attorney General; the paper provided to them by Mr John Larkin QC and their intention to respond to that paper in the next two weeks, and their undertaking to provide the Committee with the paper and the response at that time. Members considered that the paper, and the response, would not arrive in sufficient time to be included in the Committee’s report.
Agreed: Members agreed that the Chairperson should write to the First Minister and the deputy First Minister requesting them to publish the paper and their response to it.
8.3.B Who might be responsible for appointments to the judiciary?
There was some discussion on Issue B.
Agreed: Members reaffirmed their earlier decision that appointments to the judiciary would continue to be dealt with through the current legislation.
8.4.C What should be the relationship between SOCA and the Security Services and the Minister/ Department/Assembly? (See also Category One List N - What needs to be done to ensure that attention is given to having appropriate measures in place to address issues such as the role of the security services?).
There was some discussion on Issue C.
Agreed: Members could not reach consensus on this issue and agreed to report to the Assembly accordingly.
8.5.D What needs to be done to ensure the maintenance of existing North/South policing and justice agreements, and is there a requirement for a Justice Sector of the North South Ministerial Council?
Members reflected on the comments made by the Secretary of State and his undertaking to review the documents and provide clarity on their status by Friday, 19 February 2010.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that the Committee Clerk should issue the Secretary of State’s letter to Members, by email, on receipt.
Agreed: Members agreed to defer further consideration of this issue until the next meeting of the Committee on Tuesday 23 February 2010.
8.6.E What is the extent of the financial provisions for a department which would exercise the range of policing and justice functions? (See also Category One List Issue I - How, and when, should the financial negotiations with the NIO be conducted, and by whom? See also Category One List Issue J - Should any budget be ‘ring-fenced’?).
Members reflected on comments made by the Secretary of State about the proportion of the existing budget for policing and justice which will be transferred to the Department of Justice if there is a request for powers to be devolved.
Members also recalled the Secretary of State’s undertaking to provide to the Committee, by Friday 19 February 2010, a detailed breakdown of the £1.328 billion which will be transferred.
Agreed: The Committee agreed that the Committee Clerk should issue the Secretary of State’s letter to members, by email, on receipt.
Agreed: Members agreed to include a recommendation in the Committee’s report about ‘ring fencing’ the policing and justice budget for the financial year 2010/11.
Agreed: Members agreed that once the Committee had ordered the report to be printed, the finance section of the report should be provided to the Committee for Finance and Personnel, for information.
Agreed: Members agreed to share the detailed breakdown of the £1.328 billion with the Committee for Finance and Personnel, on receipt.
8.7.F What, if any, consideration should there be of the Ashdown Report on Parading, and is there a need for further clarity of the powers to be devolved, and, if so, should they include matters relating to the Public Processions (Northern Ireland) Act 1989, flags and symbols and recruitment to the PSNI?
The Committee discussed the fact that, and the extent to which, this matter is dealt with in the agreement at Hillsborough Castle.
Agreed: Members could not reach consensus on the degree, if any, to which the Committee should give consideration to this matter and agreed to report to the Assembly accordingly.
8.8.G In the context of Recommendation 26 of the Committee’s original report, to which Department should the Public Prosecution Service be attached? (See also Category One List Issue G).
There was some discussion on New Issue G.
Agreed: Members could not reach consensus on this issue and agreed to report to the Assembly accordingly.
8.9.H In the context of Recommendation 27 of the Committee’s original report, about examining the independence and accountability of the Public Prosecution Service, before, and following devolution, what consideration should be given to this matter, pre-devolution?
There was some discussion on New Issue H.
Agreed: Members reaffirmed their earlier agreement that this issue was adequately dealt with in the Agreement at Hillsborough Castle on 5 February 2010.
8.10.I In relation to Recommendation 30 of the Committee’s original report, who should undertake the advisory role in relation to the appointment of the Police Ombudsman? (See also Category One List Issue G).
There was some discussion on New Issue I.
Agreed: Members agreed to defer further consideration of this issue until the next meeting of the Committee on Tuesday 23 February 2010.
8.11.J What procedures and protocols will there need to be between the Minister, an Assembly Committee and any newly established department and its associated agencies? (Additional question introduced to Category Two List, following a decision, on 25 November, to re-locate it from Category One List Issue O).
There was some discussion on New Issue J.
Agreed: Members reaffirmed their earlier decision that the procedures and protocols between the Minister, an Assembly Committee and any newly established department and its associated agencies should be the same as those which currently exist for other Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive.
8.12.K What would be the status of the Minister’s position in, and relationship with, the Executive Committee; and would the Minister be required to bring significant, or controversial, matters to the Executive Committee?
There was some discussion on New Issue K.
Agreed: Members reaffirmed their earlier agreement that this issue was adequately dealt with in the Agreement at Hillsborough Castle on 5 February 2010.
4.13 pm Alex Maskey rejoined the meeting.
9. Forward Work Programme
The Committee Clerk briefed the Committee on the arrangements for meetings next week. The first on Tuesday 23 February at 11.00 am, in Room 21, and the second on Thursday 25 February at 11.00 am in a venue to be confirmed, to agree and sign off on the Committee’s report.
10. Any other business
Members agreed that the provisions of draft Standing Order 49A should be extended to prevent members of the Belfast District Policing Partnerships Sub-Groups from holding simultaneous membership of the Justice Committee.
11. Date, time and place of next meeting
The Committee agreed that the next meeting would take place on Tuesday, 23 February 2010 at 11.00 am, in Room 21.
The Chairperson adjourned the meeting at 4.16 pm.