PROCEEDINGS OF THE SUB-GROUP ON POLICING AND JUSTICE MATTERS
Minutes of the meeting held on Friday, 8 December 2006 in Room 144, Parliament Buildings.
In the Chair: Francie Molloy
Present: Alex Attwood
Fred Cobain
Arlene Foster
William Hay
Gerry Kelly
Raymond McCartney
In Attendance: Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Christine Darrah (Assembly Clerk)
Neil Currie (Assistant Clerk)
Paul Woods (Clerical Officer)
Patricia Casey (Senior Researcher)
Observing: Brian Barrington (SDLP researcher)
Richard Bullick (DUP researcher)
Ciaran Kearney (Sinn Fein researcher)
Mark Neale (UUP researcher)
The meeting commenced at 9.33am.
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Apologies
Ian Paisley Jnr (Mr Hay attended the meeting as DUP representative in place of Mr Paisley)
Kathy Stanton (Mr McCartney attended the meeting as SF representative in place of Ms Stanton)
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Introductions
Members noted details of the secretariat support staff and sub-group membership. The Chairperson outlined the arrangements for chairing the meeting and explained that the Committee on the Programme for Government would give further consideration to the issue at its meeting on Monday 11 December.
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Terms of Reference for the Sub-Group
Members noted the Terms of Reference for the sub-group, as agreed by the Programme for Government Committee.
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Sub-Group Procedures
Members noted the procedures for the sub-group, as agreed by the Programme for Government Committee.
The sub-group agreed by consensus that meetings would be held in closed session and that the proceedings would not be recorded by Hansard.
The arrangements for future meetings could be changed, by agreement of the sub-group.
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Declaration of Interests, Privilege and Sub Judice
Members noted the paper on declaration of interests, privilege in the Transitional Assembly and Sub Judice.
Members declared the following interests:
- Alex Attwood – member of Policing Board
- Fred Cobain – member of Policing Board
- Arlene Foster – member of Policing Board
- William Hay – member of Policing Board
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Draft Work Programme
Members noted the draft work programme and the requirement to report back to the Programme for Government Committee by 3 January 2007.
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Discussion of administrative structures for the creation of a new policing and justice department
Members discussed issues surrounding the ministerial structures for administering policing and justice.
It was agreed that copies of the Hansards of the House of Commons and House of Lords debates on the St. Andrew’s Agreement legislation should be circulated.
Mrs Foster proposed that each of the parties prepare a paper, for circulation in advance of the next meeting, on the four issues outlined in the sub-group’s terms of reference. There was consensus and the proposal was agreed.
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NIO letter of 15 August 2006 on reserved matters contained within Schedule 3 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998
Members discussed the NIO proposals (as set out in the Discussion Paper: Devolving Policing and Justice in Northern Ireland and the subsequent NIO letter of 15 August 2006 to the Committee on the Preparation for Government) on what should or should not be devolved.
It was agreed to request, from the NIO, a copy/details of any new papers/proposals being considered/drawn up on a policing/justice department.
It was agreed to request, from the NIO, further information in connection with national security arrangements.
It was agreed that a paper should be prepared for the sub-group on the composition of a policing and justice department and the bodies/agencies to be devolved.
Paragraph 9(a) & (b) of Schedule 3: The criminal law and the creation of offences and penalties
It was agreed by consensus that this area should be devolved. The DUP and UUP were content with the level of devolvement proposed in the NIO letter of 15 August 2006. Sinn Fein and SDLP wished to see all powers in this area devolved.
9(c): The prevention & detection of crime and powers of arrest and detention in connection with crime or criminal proceedings
It was agreed to request information on all the areas where there are Government Agreements/protocols in place on policing and justice matters.
It was also agreed that a paper should be prepared for the sub-group on the status, remit, etc of the Assets Recovery Agency.9(d): Prosecutions
It was agreed to request information on the current position and a copy of any draft of the proposed Concordat on the independence of the prosecution system.
9(e): Treatment of offenders (including children and young persons, and mental health patients, involved in crime)
It was agreed to request information on the current position and a copy of any draft proposals with regard to the arrangements to be put in place to allow the Life Sentences Review Commissioners to continue to have access to appropriate information which falls within the excepted field.
It was agreed to request information on the proposed changes to the NI (Remission of Sentences) Act 1995 including the use of parole boards and the effect these proposed changes would have on the devolution proposals outlined.
It was also agreed to request information on what are scheduled offences and what are non-scheduled offences according to the Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Bill.
9(g): Compensation
The Chairperson proposed that the sub-group agree the proposal for devolution set out in the NIO letter of 15 August 2006. There was consensus and the proposal was agreed.
10: Public Order
It was agreed to request clarification of the circumstances in which the army would be deployed in support of the police and what the accountability mechanisms in respect of the army would be in the circumstances referred to.
It was agreed to request clarification of were responsibility currently rests with regard to the approval of the purchasing of weapons which may be used by the police in public order situations and what the position would be following devolution of policing and justice.
Mr Hay left the meeting at 11.24am.
It was also agreed that a paper should be prepared for the sub-group on best practice in relation to public appointments (taking account of the Nolan principles); and the remit/power, etc of the Public Appointments Commission/Commissioner.
Mr Hay rejoined the meeting at 11.31am.
The meeting was suspended at 11.34am.
The meeting reconvened at 11.40am.
11: The Police and the policing accountability framework
It was agreed to request clarification of how the fact that the Secretary of State would retain power to issue statutory guidance to the Police Ombudsman, and the Minister for policing would also have this power would work in practice.
The Chairperson proposed that the sub-group write to the Standing Orders Sub-Group of the Business Committee asking it to consider the following matters when drafting relevant Standing Orders:
a) Members of an Assembly scrutiny committee must not be members of the Policing Board.
b) It must be ensured that the remit of an Assembly scrutiny committee does not impinge on the statutory duties of the Policing Board.
There was consensus and the proposal was agreed.
The Chairperson proposed that the 50:50 temporary recruitment provisions should be devolved. There was not consensus and the proposal fell. The DUP and UUP were content for the power to remain with the Secretary of State. Sinn Fein and the SDLP wished to see it devolved, with decisions being made subject to cross-community support in the Assembly.
11A: Co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda Siochana in relation to a specific series of matters.
It was agreed to request information on all the areas where there are agreements/protocols in place between the PSNI and the Garda Siochana.
12: Firearms & explosives
It was agreed to request clarification of what exactly it was proposed was devolved in relation to firearms, the relevant firearms legislation and the specific types of firearms that are covered by this legislation and exactly what it was proposed would not be devolved.
15: The Courts
It was agreed to request clarification with regard to where the financial burden would fall if the proposals for devolution were accepted.
15A: The Northern Ireland Law Commission
The Chairperson proposed that the sub-group agree in principle to devolution in respect of the Northern Ireland Law Commission, however, the Assembly may wish to address the powers of such a Commission in due course. There was consensus and the proposal was agreed.
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Any Other Business
Press Release
Members agreed a press release regarding the formation and work of the sub-group.
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Date of Next Meeting
The sub-group will next meet at 10.00am on Thursday, 14 December 2006 in Room 135, Parliament Buildings.