PROCEEDINGS OF THE SUB-GROUP ON POLICING AND JUSTICE MATTERS
Minutes of the meeting held in part private / public session on Thursday, 14 December and Tuesday, 19 December 2006 in Parliament Buildings.
In the Chair: William Hay
Present: Alex Attwood
Fred Cobain
Arlene Foster
Gerry Kelly
Raymond McCartney
Alan McFarland
Conor Murphy MP
Ian Paisley Jnr
Peter Robinson MP
In Attendance: Martin Wilson (Principal Clerk)
Christine Darrah (Assembly Clerk)
Neil Currie (Assistant Clerk)
Paul Woods (Clerical Officer)
Sharon Young (Clerical Officer)
Patricia Casey (Senior Researcher)
Observing: Stephen Barr (UUP researcher)
Richard Bullick (DUP researcher)
Leo Green (Sinn Féin researcher)
Michelle McDermott (Sinn Féin researcher)
Jackie McMullan (Sinn Féin researcher)
Mark Neale (UUP researcher)
The meeting commenced at 10.02am in private session.
1. Apologies
Meeting on 14 December 2006:
Ian Paisley Jnr (Mr Robinson MP attended the meeting as DUP representative in place of Mr Paisley)
Kathy Stanton (Mr McCartney attended the meeting as SF representative in place of Ms Stanton)
Meeting on 19 December 2006:
Gerry Kelly (Mr Murphy attended the meeting as SF representative in place of Mr Kelly)
Kathy Stanton (Mr McCartney attended the meeting as SF representative in place of Ms Stanton)
2. Declaration of Interests
Members declared the following interests:
- Alex Attwood – member of Policing Board
- Fred Cobain – member of Policing Board
- Arlene Foster – member of Policing Board
3. Chairing of the Subgroup
The Chairperson advised members that, at its meeting on Monday 11 December, the Committee on the Programme for Government agreed that future meetings of the Subgroup on policing and justice matters should be chaired by a member of the DUP, and that he had been nominated. The Chairperson will not count towards the quorum and will not have a vote. If the Chairperson is unavailable for any particular meeting, it will be the responsibility of the DUP to provide a replacement chairperson for that meeting.
4. Previous Minutes
The minutes of the meeting of 8 December 2006 were agreed.
5. Matters arising
a) Revised Procedures for Subgroups
Members noted the revised procedures for the Subgroup, as agreed by the Programme for Government Committee at its meeting on 11 December 2006.
b) Letter to the Standing Orders Subgroup
As agreed at the meeting of 8 December 2006, the Chairperson had written to the Standing Orders subgroup of the Business Committee regarding the relationship between an Assembly policing and justice scrutiny committee and the Policing Board.
6. Response from the Northern Ireland Office dated 13 December 2006
A response from the Northern Ireland Office (NIO) dated 13 December 2006 to a request from the Subgroup for information on a range of issues, had been circulated to Members prior to the commencement of the meeting. It was agreed to suspend the meeting for 15 minutes to allow Members to examine the response.
The meeting was suspended at 10.23am.
The meeting reconvened at 10.42am.
The Chairperson proposed that the NIO officials should attend the meeting to give evidence in public session on each of the issues contained in the response, and answer any questions that Members may have. There was consensus and the proposal was agreed.
The meeting moved to public session at 10.47am.
7. Evidence session with NIO officials
The Chairperson welcomed NIO officials Rachel Miller, David Hughes Tom Haire and Jim Strain to the meeting and outlined the format of the session.
Mr Robinson joined the meeting at 11.03am.
The officials answered Members’ questions on the information provided in the response dated13 December 2006, and agreed to provide further information on a range of issues relating to the proposals for the devolution of policing and justice.
The Chairperson thanked the officials for their attendance and they left the meeting at 11.50am.
The meeting was suspended at 11.48am.
The meeting reconvened in private session at 12.04pm.
8. Press Release
Members agreed a press release regarding the evidence session with NIO officials.
9. Papers from the parties
Papers from the DUP, Sinn Féin and the SDLP on issues relating to the devolution of policing and justice were circulated to Members. All four parties then outlined their positions on the range of issues.
Mr Cobain left the meeting at 12.24pm.
The meeting was suspended at 12.24pm.
The meeting reconvened at 1.04pm.
Mr McFarland joined the meeting at 1.04pm.
Mr McFarland declared the following interest: – former member of the Policing Board.
A detailed discussion took place on the issues relating to the administrative structures for the creation of a new policing and justice department, matters for devolution and the timing of the devolution of policing and justice and support for the rule of law.
Mr Robinson left the meeting at 2.09pm.
The Chairperson proposed that the meeting be suspended and reconvene on Tuesday, 19 December 2006 at 12.00 noon. There was consensus and the proposal was agreed.
The Subgroup requested that a summary of the key discussion points be circulated before the meeting reconvened.
The meeting was suspended at 2.27pm.
The meeting reconvened on Tuesday, 19 December 2006 at 12.15pm.
Mr Ian Paisley Jnr declared the following interest: – member of the Policing Board.
10. Administrative structures for the creation of a new policing justice department
a) Ministerial Arrangements
The sub-group was unable to reach consensus on the matter of ministerial arrangements. The DUP and UUP were in favour of a single Minister for policing and justice. Sinn Féin and the SDLP, while not opposed to a single Minister in principle, were of the view that the Ministerial arrangements could only be resolved within the context of agreeing a timescale for the devolution of policing and justice, the appointment mechanism and what powers the Minister would have.
b) The Appointment Procedure
The sub-group was unable to reach consensus on the appointment procedure for a policing and justice Minister.
The DUP put forward a proposal for a preliminary appointment process that would ensure that the Minister had widespread support in the Assembly and increase community confidence. Sinn Féin, the SDLP and UUP wished to see the appointment made using the d’Hondt mechanism.
11. The Timing of Devolution of Policing and Justice/Support for the Rule of Law
The subgroup was unable to reach consensus on the timing of the devolution of policing and justice.
The DUP, whilst supportive in principle of the devolution of policing and justice functions, indicated that it was not possible to set a precise date for this. Community confidence was essential and the key issue for the party was support for the rule of law, demonstrated over a credible time frame for a place on the Executive Committee.
Sinn Féin wished to see the devolution of policing and justice powers immediately upon restoration and no later than six months afterwards
The SDLP also wished to see the full devolution of policing and justice upon restoration. In the absence of this, the party believed that a devolved Minister for policing and justice should still be appointed upon restoration. The Minister should have a range of significant devolved powers in relation to non-controversial matters and responsibility for preparing proposals for the devolution of the remaining powers within six months. The UUP stated that community confidence was essential and all Ministers must support the rule of law before a timescale for the devolution of policing and justice could be agreed.
12. Matters for devolution
The Subgroup considered the matters proposed for devolution in the context of Table 1 of the letter dated 15 August 2006 from the NIO to the Preparation for Government Committee.
The criminal law and offences and penalties
The Subgroup agreed by consensus that the criminal law and offences and penalties should be devolved. The DUP and UUP were content with the level of devolvement proposed in the NIO letter of 15 August 2006. Sinn Féin and the SDLP wished to see all powers in this matter devolved.
The prevention and detection of crime and powers of arrest and detention in connection with crime or criminal proceedings
The Subgroup agreed by consensus that the prevention and detection of crime and powers of arrest and detection in connection with crime or criminal proceedings should be devolved. The DUP and UUP were content with the level of devolvement proposed in the NIO letter of 15 August 2006. Sinn Féin and the SDLP wished to see all powers in this matter devolved.
Mr Paisley left the meeting at 1.12pm.
Treatment of offenders (including children and young persons, and mental health patients, involved in crime)
The Subgroup agreed by consensus that treatment of offenders (including children and young persons, and mental health patients, involved in crime) should be devolved. The DUP and UUP were content with the level of devolvement proposed in the NIO letter of 15 August 2006. Sinn Féin and the SDLP wished to see all powers in this matter devolved.
Public Order
The Subgroup agreed by consensus that public order should be devolved. The DUP and UUP were content that responsibility for the Army and for making appointments to the Parades Commission should remain as excepted and reserved matters, respectively. Sinn Féin and the SDLP wished to see all powers in this matter devolved.
The Police and the policing accountability framework
The Subgroup agreed by consensus that the police and the policing accountability framework should be devolved. The DUP and UUP were content that responsibility for national security information and for the derogation from the EC Directive on equality should remain as excepted matters. The DUP and UUP were further content that responsibility for the 50/50 recruitment arrangements to the PSNI should remain as a reserved matter. Sinn Féin and the SDLP wished to see all powers in this matter devolved and that the devolved administration should have appropriate accountability arrangements for all national security operation in Northern Ireland.
Co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda Siochána in relation to a specific series of matters.
The Subgroup agreed by consensus that cooperation between the PSNI and the Garda Siochána in relation to a specific series of matters should be devolved. The DUP and UUP were content that matters relating to aspects of the Inter-Governmental Agreement on Policing not transferred into the reserved field by the Northern Ireland (Misc. Provisions) Act 2006 and the Inter-Governmental Agreement itself should remain as excepted matters. The DUP and UUP were further content that the reserved matters relating to specified aspects of international cooperation should be devolved. Sinn Féin and the SDLP wished to see all powers in this matter devolved. The SDLP further concluded that the Inter-Governmental Agreement should be left in place as currently agreed.
Firearms & explosives
The Subgroup agreed by consensus that responsibility for firearms should be devolved. The DUP proposed devolution that excluded legislative responsibility for prohibited firearms. Sinn Féin and the SDLP proposed full devolution of all responsibility in this matter. The UUP proposed devolution that excluded legislative responsibility for all firearms and administrative responsibility for prohibited firearms.
The Courts
The Subgroup agreed by consensus that the Courts should be devolved. The DUP and UUP were content with the level of devolvement proposed in the NIO letter of 15 August 2006. Sinn Féin and the SDLP wished to see all powers in this matter devolved.
The Northern Ireland Law Commission
The Subgroup agreed by consensus that the Northern Ireland Law Commission should be devolved as proposed in the NIO letter of 15 August 2006.
13. Any Other Business
a) Format of draft report
Members noted the proposed format for the draft report as agreed by the Committee on the Programme for Government.
b) Draft Policing (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 2007
The Chairperson informed members that the Northern Ireland Office had written to the Speaker seeking the views of the Transitional Assembly on the draft Policing (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 2007. The Business Committee had referred the matter to the Committee on the Programme for Government who, at its meeting on 18 December, agreed to refer it to the Policing and Justice Subgroup. Papers relating to the draft Order were circulated to members, along with the revised terms of reference for the subgroup.
To assist the sub-group’s consideration of the draft Order, the Chairperson proposed that it hold an evidence session with Mr Paul Goggins MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and NIO officials on Monday 8 January 2007 at 1.15p.m. in the Senate Chamber. There was consensus and the proposal was agreed.
14. Date of Next Meeting
The sub-group will next meet at 12.30p.m. on Thursday, 21 December 2006 in Room 135, Parliament Buildings.
The meeting adjourned at 1.48pm.