Welcome to the Northern Ireland Assembly

This report was not approved formally by the Committee prior to the suspension of the Assembly on 14 October 2002, but is published by order of the Speaker.

Committee for Social Development

Tuesday 10 September 2002

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE

Housing Support Services Bill:
Committee Stage
(NIA 23/01)

Members present:

Mr Cobain (Chairperson)
Sir John Gorman
Mrs Nelis
Mr ONeill
Mr M Robinson

Witnesses:

Mr J Burns ) Department for Social Development
Ms D Ferran ) Northern Ireland Housing Executive

The Chairperson: I welcome Mr Burns and Ms Ferran. Officials made a presentation to the Committee on the principles of the Bill earlier this year, and the Committee subsequently led a very constructive debate on the matter in the Assembly on 19 March 2002. Perhaps you would outline to us the reasons for the Bill and its main thrust. Members would also find it helpful if you were to say something about the legislative provisions in force elsewhere in the United Kingdom.

Mr Burns: I am from the Department for Social Development’s Housing Policy Branch. My colleague is from the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, the body responsible for carrying through the Towards Supporting People project for us.

The Housing Support Services Bill aims to introduce a new method of funding supportive housing services to enable vulnerable people to live as independently as possible in supported housing accommodation. In the past, these services were, in the main, paid for through housing benefit, but in 1997 a court ruled that such payments were ultra vires and that housing benefit should no longer cover the costs. Providers were left with no way of funding these vital support services, so the Government introduced a transitional housing benefit scheme to give legislative backing for the arrangements until a new means of funding the services could be found.

In Great Britain, it was decided that all funding streams for supported housing, namely the part of housing benefit that was meeting support costs and other funding streams — such as special needs management allowance, which was paid by the Department to housing associations — should be put into one funding stream that would be operated by a single body. In England, it is operated by the local authorities and in Northern Ireland by the Housing Executive. The new arrangements will ensure that those in receipt of funding for housing support services will continue to receive it and that existing funding streams, which are often complicated, are streamlined. Similar legislation in Scotland is the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001, mainly section 91, and in England and Wales it is the Local Government Act 2000, sections 93 to 96.

The Chairperson: The purpose of the meeting is to carry out a clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Housing Support Services Bill. The Committee agreed not to call witnesses, but interested parties were invited to suggest amendments to the Bill, copies of which members have before them. Members will also have the opportunity to raise concerns about the provisions and to suggest amendments. Members should read the clauses in the Bill in association with the commentary in the explanatory and financial memorandum. They may also find it helpful to refer to the useful paper prepared by the Assembly’s Research and Library Services, a copy of which was distributed on 9 September.

The Bill has eight clauses, and each clause and subsection must be considered in turn. The Committee has two options: to agree that it is content with a clause as drafted, or to agree that we recommend to the Assembly that the clause be amended. Before coming to a decision, members may also seek clarification on any clause. We agreed the detailed handling arrangements for the consideration of the Bill at our meeting on 5 September. If we cannot reach agreement on a particular clause or amendment, I will put it to members that consideration of that clause or amendment be deferred for further consideration at a later date, and we will proceed to the next clause.

Long title agreed to.

Clause 1 (Provision of housing support services)

Mr ONeill: It may be worthwhile for the Committee to look at the suggested amendments about consultation being inbuilt into the legislation or the advice notes that accompany it. That would ensure that the points raised by various groups are connected to what the Committee is doing. One proposal states:

"Before any regulations, guidance or other change to the provision of housing support services, the Department must consult:

(a) the Northern Ireland Housing Executive;

(b) such recipients or representatives of recipients of housing support services as appear to be appropriate; and

With regard to consultation, there may be some need to apply the Act. What is your response to that?

Mr Burns: The Department already has a responsibility to consult the Northern Ireland Federation of Housing Associations on anything that it intends to do regarding housing associations and their areas of business. The Bill will introduce new funding arrangements in which the Housing Executive will also fund other voluntary bodies not currently funded by the Department.

We have set up an external reference group to which any papers or regulations that the Department intends to bring forward will be brought to for its comments. We did not think it necessary to enshrine that type of onus to consult in the legislation.

The Chairperson: OK?

Mr ONeill: I am not sure that it is OK. There may be a need for it to be enshrined. I accept what Mr Burns is saying, but as the Bill is a separate piece of legislation, there may be a need for it to be specifically allied to the consultative process rather than dependent on other existing legislation to ensure that that takes place. It might be altered in the future and affect the consultative requirement that is required for the Housing Support Services Bill, so perhaps an onus to consult with the Department should be included in the Bill. It would be an assurance, and it should not cause the Department any difficulty since it has recognised the need for consultation in other areas.

Mr Burns: Usually "consultation" applies to a period of at least eight weeks and involves other representative bodies that are not necessarily part of the area of business that you are dealing with. We will be happy to consider Mr ONeill’s point and introduce some mechanism for consulting and involving the bodies that would be affected by any change rather than have a standard eight-week consultation period involving the public. I am willing to recommend to the Minister that a subsection be included in the Bill to deal with consultation if that is what the Committee and the providers’ representatives feel should be included.

Mr ONeill: That would be progress, but the Committee would like to preview its content.

Mr Burns: An amendment has been drafted along the lines of the provisions in the GB legislation. Officials will ask the Minister to consider including it in the Housing Support Services Bill.

The Chairperson: Mr Burns, do you agree to consult with the Department on the proposed amendment?

Mr Burns: I am happy to go back to the Minister and take his view on it.

Mrs Nelis: The Committee must have an absolute assurance that there will be a consultation process, particularly on charging or means-testing. The consultation should be wide and involve users. My understanding is that there would be a cash limit in that respect.

Mr Burns: Issues such as charging and means-testing will be brought forward under our Regulations and conditions of grant, although no decision has yet been taken. As I said, if you feel that the amendment should be included, I will have no difficulty in recommending that to the Minister.

The Chairperson: If the Department is not prepared to support the amendment, the Committee can move an amendment itself. We are keen for the amendment to be included in the Bill.

Mr ONeill: Will the amendment be accepted in its current wording, or will it be changed? That is why I want to see the final version.

Mr Burns: If need be, we can come back to the Committee and show you how it has been worded.

The Chairperson: That would be helpful. There are several clauses, not only in this Bill but also in the Housing Bill, on which the Department and the Committee will have to work together. We are keen to see your response to the amendment. It is important that that amendment be included in the Bill, without losing its overall thrust. Will you come back to us as quickly as possible on this?

Mr Burns: Will we answer in writing, or will we have to appear before the Committee again?

The Chairperson: You will need to come back in person. It will take about 30 seconds for the Committee to approve it. I know that you are a busy man, but you should be able to spare the Committee 30 seconds.

Mr Burns: You will be seeing quite a bit of me over the next few months.

Clause 1 referred for further consideration.

Clause 2 (Grants for housing support services)

Sir John Gorman: Have any submissions been made regarding this clause?

The Chairperson: No. Are we happy with the clause?

Mr ONeill: Research and Library Services raised an interesting question about the Northern Ireland Housing Executive and the amount of discretion under clause 3. Will the Northern Ireland Housing Executive’s exercise of that discretion be subject to the Assembly’s approval? That is, will the provisions that it formulates under clause 2 be subject to the Assembly’s approval? It would be interesting to see how that would operate.

Mr Burns: Page 4 of the Bill states that

"a prescribed means prescribed by regulations made subject to negative resolution by the Department".

Therefore, the Department will make any Regulations.

Mr ONeill: That clarifies it.

The Chairperson: Regulations will then by approved by the Assembly.

Mr Burns: Yes, by negative resolution.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 3 (Disclosure of information)

Mrs Nelis: Research and Library Services asked the pertinent question of whether those sections are fully compatible with the data protection legislation.

Mr Burns: Those sections were included for reasons of data protection on the advice of our Social Security Policy and Legislation Branch. They are lifted directly from the Great Britain legislation.

Mrs Nelis: Have there been changes to the data protection legislation?

Mr Burns: Not that I am aware of. I have enough difficulty keeping up with housing legislation.

The Chairperson: All the legislation passed will have to conform to the Data Protection Act.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 4 (Unauthorised disclosure of information)

Mrs Nelis: Does this clause tell us what the penalty is for disclosing information? Oh, clause 4(5) explains it.

Mr ONeill: For the record, we should ask what Research and Library Services has found.

Clause 4(5) states: "A person guilty of an offence under this section is to be liable¾

(a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or a fine or both, or

(b) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both."

Mrs Nelis: The legislation does not clarify the fine after conviction.

Mr Burns: The fine will be for the courts to determine, but my understanding is that the maximum fine is £2,000.

Sir John Gorman: I do not seem to have the research findings.

The Chairperson: They are among your documents, Sir John.

Mr Burns: For the record, I have been told that the fine is £5,000.

Mr ONeill: The point that the researcher was trying to make concerned the level of fine or the period of imprisonment for the prescribed offence. How is a suitable penalty decided? Is there some sort of punitive benchmarking system?

Mr Burns: I assume that the penalties are already in place for unauthorised disclosure of any information relating to housing benefits, or other benefits of that nature.

Mr ONeill: I see.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clause 5 (Housing benefits)

Sir John Gorman: I have a letter from the Belgravia Residents’ Association, which is concerned about those tenants who are not in receipt of housing benefit. It fears that the changes in payment of benefits may affect the financial income of housing associations. In other words, if the housing associations are no longer able to provide the services that the housing services or the Bill requires of them, the rent of those who pay it will be affected.

Mr Burns: The Belgravia Residents’ Association raised the point with the Department that Oaklee Housing Association is in receipt of special needs management allowance for the scheme in question. The fear is that that special needs management allowance will end once the new arrangements for Towards Supporting People are introduced.

However, that is not the case. I understand that the scheme in question is what is called a registered care scheme. From 1 April 2003, as the new programmes come on stream, those schemes will no longer be eligible for funding from Towards Supporting People. However, we have given an undertaking that any schemes that are currently in receipt of the special needs management allowance will continue to receive an amount equal to that until the Department for Social Development, with the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, has had an opportunity to look at the scheme and determine what the correct source of funding will be in future.

Therefore, any scheme that is currently funded, either through housing benefit or special needs management allowance, will not suffer as a result of the new measures coming in. I gave you that undertaking at our last meeting.

Sir John Gorman: That was very helpful, and doubtless the Minister will send me Mr Burns’s reply. You may convey that to the Belgravia Residents’ Association.

Question, That the Committee is content with the clause, put and agreed to.

Clauses 6 to 8 agreed to.

The Chairperson: There are no schedules or other associated attachments to consider, therefore the clause-by- clause consideration of the Bill, with the exception of clause 1 to which the Department will respond, is concluded.

Mr B Hutchinson: Is clause 1 the one that they will change?

The Chairperson: We hope that they will change it. We will continue with the Committee Stage of the Housing Support Services Bill on Thursday 12 September.

Mr ONeill: Before our officials leave, will they advise us about the Regulation and advice notes that will accompany the Bill? Several issues were raised at Second Stage about that, by myself in particular. What is the timescale for dealing with those Regulations, and how will our consultative input and scrutiny be arranged?

Mr Burns: We cannot proceed with any Regulations until the Bill has received Royal Assent. As soon as that occurs, the Committee will receive the Regulations. I have never been involved in legislation before, so I am learning about this process just as much as you are, and my understanding is that we will send a memorandum to the Committee on each set of Regulations. The Committee is free to invite us to discuss the Regulations at that time.

Mr ONeill: When will we be made aware of the size of the funding pot, which is central to the legislation?

Mr Burns: It is very much a fluid situation. We are liaising with the Department of Finance and Personnel. We are also keeping in close contact with representatives from Great Britain to find out where they stand. The Housing Executive continues to work with the providers to ensure that they are content that the rent and support split is made correctly. We will continue to ensure that we have the pot sized correctly.

The Chairperson: Thank you very much.

21 March 2002 / Menu / 12 September 2002