Any research by the Library service, either in the Assembly or elsewhere, is available to all Members and can be accessed by them or by anyone outside. I make the point again that it is a provision rather than a firm commitment to go out tomorrow and spend that amount of money.

Jane Morrice raised the issue of childcare, which was considered at the CAPO meeting and by the Commission. I think that there is a willingness on the part of the Commission to address this issue. The mind of the Commission at this time is that this is best done through a voucher system. The pressure on Parliament Buildings might be a good reason for us to move in that direction. A survey will be going out to all Members, their staff and the Assembly staff. However, the Commission felt that this is not the right time to send out the survey. We should allow staff to get into place first because the results of the survey will greatly depend on the number of staff in the building. Those are costs which the Commission has put in, based on assumptions in relation to how much the building will be used by Members, their staff and Assembly staff. There seems to be a willingness in the Commission to make provision. How innovative it turns out to be may cause some disappointment, but I think that provision through a voucher system seems to be the most sensible way to proceed.

Mr Beggs:

I too am concerned that public funds should be used prudently. The money that is to be spent on the Assembly means that there will be less to spend on health and education. We are currently talking about taking £23 million away from the Northern Ireland block grant - something which has not been planned for.

Given that there has been no reduction in the number of Northern Ireland quangos - think of the savings that would flow from that - can the Member justify the proposal to have 400 civil servants (an additional 270) servicing the Assembly? How can he submit a report which sets aside £2 million for salary increases and £1.8 million for office-costs allowance increases, given the fact that the Senior Salaries Review Body has not issued a report?

Mr Dallat:

I thank Mr Robinson for his very informed report. My question relates to access to Parliament Buildings. There has been a great deal of public interest in the Assembly since it began. Many people have visited the Assembly from Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and beyond, and I congratulate the staff on their friendly and welcoming approach to visitors.

Paragraph 24 of the report refers to the introduction of a new pass system. Can I have an assurance that, as far as is possible, Parliament Buildings will remain open and accessible to as many people as are interested in coming here to find out about the work of the Assembly?

Rev Dr Ian Paisley:

Who co-operated with Mr Coulter and examined the alcoholic beverages in this House? Will that person's name be made available to the Assembly? I should like to have a word with that person about temperance.

What steps are being taken to tighten security within the precincts of this building? May we have a breakdown of the costs of the Speaker's Office, which are estimated at £215,000?

Mrs I Robinson:

I too want to deal with the estimate of £36·8 million for the financial year 1999-2000. Mr Robinson touched on part of my question when he was addressing Mr McCartney's query, but I will ask it anyway. What changes could be made to the structure of the Assembly or in the way it operates to reduce this figure?

Mr Taylor:

I congratulate Mr Robinson and his fellow commissioners on a first-class report. Much of it had to be based on speculation as to what will happen next year, and that is a difficult thing to do when one is presenting a report of this nature.

My first question concerns the overall cost of £36 million. At first glance one begins to suspect that we are heading towards the extravagance of the European Parliament. However, Mr Robinson said that part of this sum is a transfer of costs from other Departments into the budget for the Assembly. Some people outside the Assembly will try to knock it and present it in a negative manner. The explanation which has been given, and is generally understood within the House, may not be generally understood by the public and, indeed, may be mischievously misrepresented by some journalists.

Does the Commission intend to issue a press release to summarise this report and especially to explain how the figure of £36 million has emerged?

My second question is about the post office, which was not mentioned. The reopening of the post office in this building is a great asset and a great facility for everyone who works here, and I try to support it. As well as postal services, it provides facilities for television licences, passports and child benefit. A notice was circulated to Members about the provision of this facility. Has the Assembly staff been alerted to its existence, and is there any further way we can promote its activities? If such an office is not viable, it will close.

My third question concerns catering. I noticed in the report that the original catering contract was between Mount Charles and the Department of Finance and Personnel. Mr Robinson suggested that Mr Coulter had been sampling the available menus. Looking at him, I can see the result - they must be good. The meals are good in all the restaurants.

Is the Commission renegotiating a contract with Mount Charles? When one brings parties here in the evening the price of food is very high indeed - £12 per head for a fork supper of sandwiches, mushroom pates, sausage rolls and coffee is extreme. This needs to be renegotiated so that all Members may bring guests from their constituencies and from organisations.

Mr P Robinson:

Mr Beggs asked about staffing. Each of the heads of departments had to make a determination based on what we now know will be the requirements of the Assembly. It was a fairly straightforward mechanical exercise. As I said in answer to a previous question, there is no intention to fill all those posts immediately. We will allow the Assembly to grow. If extra staff are required, they will be put in place. If they are not, there will be a saving for the Northern Ireland block.

The worst position would be if we did not have the provision in our estimates - if, after the Assembly had worked for some time, more staff were required but funds were not available. The public would think less of us if, in the middle of the financial year, we had to go cap in hand for more money. They might think more of us if, halfway through the financial year, we could give money back because we did not need it. I hope that that will be the case.

12.00

We expect the SSRB report to be published within the next week, and as far as the Commission's fortune-telling ability in relation to that report is concerned, I have to say that we have heard some whispers, but it would be irresponsible to comment on them. I suspect that Members would not thank the Commission if the SSRB were to recommend an increase in Members' salaries without there being any money in the estimates to pay for it. I would not like to remain on the Commission in those circumstances.

We have made what we believe to be a sensible estimation, based on our understanding of the SSRB's thinking. We could be wrong. Perhaps it will recommend more than our estimate, perhaps less. As it is a provision only and not actual expenditure, we can deal with that when it happens.

Reference was made to the accessibility of Parliament Buildings. We are paying particular attention to the needs of the disabled, both the visually and the physically impaired. As regards the general public gaining access, we must marry the need for openness within the Assembly - and I do not think that we should be placing undue restrictions, other than those which accommodation dictates - with the security difficulties, which Dr Paisley has pointed out.

In recent sittings Members commented on the fact that they had seen members of the public straying around various floors of the building. One Member told me that a group of three schoolchildren peeped into his room. We need to have a specified route to ensure that people adhere to the security requirements.

The Keeper of the House has drawn the Commission's attention to the need for a new security pass system. The present security passes are deficient on at least two grounds. One is that they are easily counterfeited, and the intention is to have security passes which are more like credit cards to replace the current laminated ones. They would be similar to the identification cards used at Westminster in that they would immediately identify the individual by way of category apart from the photographic identification. A staff member's pass would have lettering, which would enable the Doorkeepers to recognise immediately that that person was allowed access to particular areas.

Such a system would also cut out the need for several security passes - some members of staff need different passes to get into the building and to specific car parks. One card would be able to deal with all of that. It would not be as easy to counterfeit such a card, and it would be easier for the Doorkeepers to identify the person using it.

I welcome Mrs Iris Robinson's concern about costs and expenses. [Laughter] I will savour this moment for a long time.

She asks what kind of changes could be made to reduce costs. Obviously, a reduction in the number of Members would reduce costs, as would a reduction in the number of Committees. Providing fewer facilities and paying less in salaries would reduce costs. Those are the areas that we must look at. If we can do with fewer back-up staff, that will also reduce costs. It will be a case of finding the proper balance over the next 12 months, and estimates for future years will be much more informed because we will have had some experience of actual costs upon which to make our determination.

Mr Taylor referred to attempts to get a handle on the start-up costs of the non-recurring expenditure. The press, of course, has available to it the whole of the report and today's deliberations, but he is quite right to say that the press may see some juicier headlines for selling newspapers. All that we can do is to set out the basis upon which we have arrived at these figures.

The figure of £36 million is a substantial amount, and it has an impact upon other spending programmes. The Commission obviously had this in mind when it reduced - I emphasise "reduced" - the figure to £36 million.

Staff throughout the building have been notified of the existence of a post office in the Building. The news of its opening is on the notice boards. I hope that we will also have a gift shop. Both those facilities will be on the line of route for visitors to the Building and there should be some passing trade from the general public.

I cannot give my hon and reverend Friend the name of the person who is monitoring the use of the bar. It may surprise some Members to know that the amount of money from the Press Bar and the Members' Bar shows, to the shame of Members, that the press use their facilities far less than do Members. I must add that the Members are not using the bar that much either. The Commission will have to look at those issues in terms of the size of the facilities and the numbers of staff.

I can also tell Mr Taylor that at the last Commission meeting there was a determination that there should be a House Committee to deal with catering matters. The Mount Charles contract has one and one half years to run. I do not wish to enter into debate about the Mount Charles contractual arrangements - he might be surprised if he were to hear them - but I can say that at present the only way to reduce costs would be by subsidy, and I do not think that the public or the Assembly would welcome that.

Mr Poots:

I welcome the Commission's intention to promote equality of opportunity and fair treatment in all recruitment practices, and its commitment to advertise publicly all vacancies. What is the religious breakdown of the current staff, and is it in line with the population of Northern Ireland?

Mr C Wilson:

Perhaps Mr Robinson could deal with an issue which is not mentioned in the summary of estimated expenditure for 1999-2000. Can he assure us that the new super-quango - the Civic Forum headed by Sir George Quigley - will not have a cost implication for the Assembly? Has the Commission looked at that issue?

Mr P Robinson:

Mr Poots raises the issue of the religious breakdown of staff. Of course, when we deal with equality we deal with not only religious and political affiliations but also with the gender issue.

The religious breakdown, in terms of the present composition of the Assembly Secretariat, is remarkably close to the balance in Northern Ireland as a whole. That is surprising for two reasons. First, we are dealing with people who have been seconded from the Civil Service. That has largely been a case of people putting their hands up and saying "I want to work there", and one might have expected one section of the community to be more enthusiastic than the other.

Perhaps the counterbalance to that is that because we are situated in east Belfast one might have expected the composition to reflect the surrounding area. However, the balance is to the religious affiliations of the community as a whole. We have some concern on the gender issue. The proportion of males working for the Assembly is 55·6%, and the proportion of females is 44·4%. That adds up to 100% for I do not think that there are any other categories. It is, of course, out of proportion to the breakdown in the community as a whole, which is about 49% male and 51% female We shall have to pay some attention to that issue.

I can assure Mr C Wilson that there is nothing in our estimates for the Civic Forum. I am assuming that another Government Department - the Office of the First and Deputy First Ministers - will cover the expenses of the Civic Forum. If they are relying on the Assembly budget to cover it, they are in trouble.

The Initial Presiding Officer:

As there are no further questions, we will move to the next item of business. I express the appreciation of the Assembly to Mr P Robinson for his presentation of the report and for his comprehensive answers to questions. I also express my thanks to the other members of the Commission and to the staff.

I expect that Members will have been somewhat surprised at what has been going on in the background to prepare for the full and proper functioning of the Assembly. That is now more apparent with the presentation of this report, and Members will agree that members of the Commission and the staff have been working very hard, albeit in the background, on many issues.

Motion made:

This Assembly approves the report prepared by the Shadow Assembly Commission. - [Mr Fee and Mrs E Bell]

Mr Fee:

The Assembly has heard something of the context in which the Shadow Commission has worked over the past five months. Before I speak about some of the assumptions behind the report, there are two observations about our situation which I would like to bring to the attention of the Assembly.

First, we heard of the National Assembly Advisory Group in Wales. It was established in December 1997 and reported in August 1998. It had eight months in which to analyse the needs of a consultative Assembly which would have no legislative power. Similarly, we heard of the Consultative Steering Group on the Scottish Parliament. It was established in November 1997 and reported in December last. In 13 months it conducted a very wide consultative exercise to form its view.

Neither of those bodies had to manage facilities, provide services, manage staff, supervise contracts and so on. The Shadow Commission to the New Northern Ireland Assembly has had these functions on top of the responsibility to determine future staffing, services, accommodation, property and resource needs of a legislative Assembly following devolution.

The fact that we have produced this report in only five months and have been able to put in place the initial facilities and services to allow Members to function, albeit in shadow mode, is a testament to the hard work of all members of staff. It is evidence of a high level of commitment and loyalty to the task of bringing this institution fully to life and a manifestation of the intense activity of the Shadow Commission, its members and its staff.

I endorse Mr P Robinson's commendation of the enormous efforts of Tom Evans, the Clerk to the Commission, of the members of the Board of Management and of the officials of the Central Personnel Group who have given us an enormous amount of time and valued advice. I have a particular word of thanks for the staff and advisers of the Initial Presiding Officer, who have been involved in our processes in great detail from day one. We have reached this point in a fraction of the time taken in Wales and Scotland, and established the core departments of the House. That is a positive achievement.

12.15 pm

A second incidental and remarkable fact of which the Assembly should be aware, and of which any Member who regularly consults the minutes of our meetings which are lodged in the Library will be aware - the fact that no Member has consulted those minutes we accept as a vote of confidence in our collective ability to fulfil our function - is that over the past five months, on the many matters that have required decision, judgement or direction, the Commission has had recourse to a vote on only one occasion.

That shows the collaborative and consensual nature of our decision-making and our commitment, as Mr Robinson said, to step outside narrow party political agendas and constraints to ensure that every Member is given the best opportunity to represent his constituents and, conversely, that constituents have the highest possible level of access to, and information about, the new Assembly and its work, its functions, its services, its procedures and its decisions. The Commission is getting to grips with all its responsibilities, and I am confident that that will continue.

We have talked in some detail about the context in which the Shadow Commission has operated. I should like to point to some of the assumptions that have had to be made as events have progressed over the past few months, because they go directly to the future basis on which our estimation of a budget for the Assembly has been founded. Some of these assumptions may seem obvious, and some already underpin the way in which we operate at the moment. However, ultimately it will be for the Assembly to decide the nature and character of the legislature that it wishes to create.

One of the important assumptions is that the Assembly will obviously wish to be as open, transparent, accessible and accountable as possible. Following directly from that is the need to introduce a high standard of information and communication systems. The creation of a public information service is central to that assumption. The events co-ordination unit, with the management system for visitors, tours and students, is an inevitable consequence, as is the necessity of computerising for every Member, every service and every facility of the Assembly.

The demand for openness and accessibility requires the creation of Internet and website facilities, and the demands of efficiency require the creation of intranet facilities and links to other institutions such as Westminster, Dáil Éireann, Europe, and so on. These are all included in the report. We feel that these services are essential if the Assembly is to be an open and accountable body, a twenty-first-century regional Parliament, and we ask for the House's endorsement of that view.

A second assumption is that over a lengthy period of time, there will continue to be significant change. With the creation of 10 new Government Departments, North/South institutions, British/Irish institutions, a Civic Forum, Assembly Committees and new systems of information, communication, research and administration, the assumption has to be that for the foreseeable future, ongoing training will be necessary for staff and Members alike. A sizeable budget for training across all disciplines has been included in the report.

A further assumption, which is reflected in the sizeable stationery and publishing costs of the Assembly, is the requirement to publish Assembly papers and Hansard on a daily basis. That is not a simple assumption. In the Welsh proposals, it is recommended that the verbatim record of the proceedings of their House be made available, in some unspecified format, within three days. I understand that in the Scottish proposals there is limited provision for paper-based publishing of their parliamentary documents, but everything will be done electronically.

Our report has assumed that there must be complete provision for both electronic and hard-paper copies of the relevant documentation and that, in the case of Hansard, the Order Paper, motions, amendments, and so on, there should be the capacity for the overnight production of documents. Of course, this is again based on the assumption that the Assembly will decide to operate on a 9 am to 5 pm or 10 am to 6 pm schedule. It is my belief that it is possible to operate efficiently, cost-effectively and professionally using normal business hours. The budget that has been developed will be substantially greater if the Assembly decides to operate a Westminster-style schedule of work or any system with regular late sittings.

For one reason or another, a range of other assumptions have influenced the report. At a straightforward level we have assumed that Committees of the House will wish to meet in other locations in Northern Ireland. We have assumed that the North/South Council, the Council of the Isles and other bodies that we will be involved in will meet elsewhere, and we have budgeted for Committee travel, staff travel and hospitality.

More importantly, we have assumed that a high quality, highly responsive Library and research facility must be created to service Members so that a professional, modern, efficient system of accountable democracy can be developed. We have made provision for the creation of entirely new systems of information, accounting, personnel management, security and administration. There is, I suppose, an expectation that the Assembly Commission itself will publish details of its estimates, budgets, minutes, proceedings, decisions and accounts.

There are three specific recommendations in the report. The first relates to the overall budget for the running of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I propose that this recommendation be accepted. It represents the assessment of the Shadow Commission and the Board of Management with the support of the Department of Finance and Personnel, and it has been arrived at with comparative analyses of the House of Commons, the Dáil, the Consultative Group in Scotland and the Advisory Group in Wales. It is a high price but an accurate reflection of the price of representative democracy.

The second recommendation refers to our own value and worth as Assembly Members, at least in relation to our pay and pension rights. It would set an important precedent if we were to accept this recommendation. However, that is the subject of a further business motion, and I shall say no more at this stage.

The third specific recommendation is that the Assembly commit itself to a process of open recruitment for all members of staff. That is crucial to the future well-being of this legislature. It will open up employment opportunities to everyone and will allow a process of recruitment based on merit to be established. That, I hope, will contribute to our having a vibrant and talented team of people working here, with their loyalties owing to this institution, serving the needs of Members, and by implication, the entire community.

That is by no means to say that we do not already have a vibrant and talented team of people here. I believe we have and that many of them will want to stay. But it does not change the fact that the Northern Ireland Civil Service is too small a pool from which to draw, given that the private and voluntary and community sectors have not been tapped and that there is enormous talent available at local government level and within non-departmental bodies or quangos.

I have probably spoken too long. I recommend that the Assembly accept the report in its entirety.

Mrs E Bell:

My Colleague did speak too long, but I have given him the extra minutes and I shall not speak for the allotted time. In his excellent presentation Mr Robinson and my Colleague, Mr Fee, outlined most of the points that people will have queries about, so I simply want to endorse their comments about the efforts and the commitment shown by you Sir, as Chairman of the Shadow Commission, and the Assembly staff, who worked long and diligently to produce this report. That reflects the work that has been ongoing from our arrival here in June and from the setting up of the Shadow Commission. I hope that Members appreciate what has been achieved in this transitional period.

I think that we have successfully carried out our remit, as far as possible, in preparing for the effective functioning of the Assembly. The report outlines the steps that have already been taken to ensure that we have sufficient staff to service the Assembly procedures and practices from June until now. We are now preparing for the recruitment of staff after the appointed day.

The Shadow Commission is indebted to the Department of Finance and Personnel staff who have completed a mighty job for us all since we first arrived here, tired and weary from the agreement negotiations, promoting - or otherwise - the referendum and electioneering to obtain an Assembly seat.

Those of us who were in the Northern Ireland Forum were glad to see a number of support staff from there, and I hope that they will continue to work with us. I also hope that Members will confirm our agreement to the guiding principles for future recruitment. Mr Robinson sufficiently addressed Members' queries and concerns about recruitment and equality of opportunity.

We have some way to go in the process to appoint the Clerk to the Assembly, but, given the hours of work and research by the Commission and Central Personnel Group of the Department of Finance and Personnel, I am confident that we will make a successful and worthy appointment to this vital post. We shall also give priority to the staffing of the 10 Departments and of any other Committees that are deemed necessary to run the devolved Assembly effectively.

Accommodation for Members and their staff was also one of our priorities, and, for the most part, work has been completed although there are some problems to be resolved as detailed in paragraph 22. The report details the wide remit of this body, and I assure colleagues that every shadow Commission member contributed in full to the various issues that had to be dealt with, from the furnishing of the Chamber, to catering services, the provision of the IT equipment, and the development of adequate library and research facilities. We have been a housekeeping committee, but that has been vital to the progression and development of the Assembly.

We are still looking into the feasibility of crèche and gym facilities. I am sorry that Ms Jane Morrice is not here to hear my comments on those. I am obviously concerned about them and, as Mr P Robinson has said, all members of the Commission are keen to look into the development of some sort of crèche facility, voucher or otherwise, and gym facilities about which Mr Hutchinson is interested. There are important issues relating to the establishment of printing, publication and distribution facilities sufficient for a working Assembly and its ancillary Committees. As Mr Robinson said, we hope to report again soon on those issues.

We have already made enquiries about costs, and surveys will be carried out on the potential use of crèche and gym facilities. We have had meetings with the Stationery Office about the provision of printing and distribution, and will embark on the next stage of the necessary process on that. I should like to record our recognition and appreciation of the work of the Hansard staff.

We visited the crèche in Brussels, and we were impressed with it and have taken on board some suggestions. At Westminster, the voucher system was suggested to us for a number of reasons, and we will report back on that. Be assured that the gym, crèche and the publication facilities will be priorities in the near future.

Our programme for future action is outlined in paragraph 32, and shows the ongoing schedule of basic but important topics that will facilitate the efficient transition from shadow to full devolution. The Commission, as a corporate body after the appointed day, will continue to develop Assembly procedures and services. Those will give Members the necessary support to carry out their duties in full parliamentary style. That will improve representative democracy, which in turn will improve Northern Ireland generally so that we can build a constructive future for our children.

I ask Members to support the report and endorse the key recommendations.

The sitting was, by leave, suspended from 12.30 pm until 2.00 pm.

Mr A Maginness:

May I join the queue waiting to give Mr P Robinson plaudits for his excellent presentation of the Commission's report. It is a comprehensive document and should be welcomed by all Members. It is also indicative of the Commission's hard work under your Chairmanship, Mr Initial Presiding Officer. Many Members were unaware of that work, which indicates a degree of commitment to what is a rather dull and, perhaps, unglamorous aspect of the Assembly. All members of the Commission should be congratulated on their work.

I share the concerns about the estimated cost of the Assembly. Some £36 million is a large sum - more than was anticipated. But democratic government can be an expensive business, and the creation of a new democratic institution is bound to create new costs. However, the value of such an institution would be inestimable if it were to bring about peace and reconciliation, in which case it would be money well spent.

I know that all parties will share the view that the Assembly will have to look at its expenditure and consider economies where they are necessary. The SDLP recognises that the projected cost of the Assembly is considerable, and it will act responsibly in relation to that.

The Commission's recommendation to allow the Senior Salaries Review Body to set the level of Members' remuneration is the proper way to approach this issue, and we should welcome it. The thorny business of Members' remuneration should be taken out of the hands of the Assembly; the computation of their salaries and expenses should be decided by an independent body such as the Senior Salaries Review Body. The SDLP welcomes that and supports this recommendation. However, it will be a supreme act of faith on the part of the Assembly if Members blindly accept that body's recommendations.

SDLP Members would like to put on record our thanks to the Assembly staff who have worked in a courteous, warm, friendly and efficient way. They have given us great service over the past few months, and I know that Members from other parties will join me in congratulating them on their work. I pay particular tribute to Nigel Carson for his work in relation to the House. He has shown leadership and, in a dedicated and efficient manner, has helped the House to establish itself.

Professionalism should be the hallmark of the Assembly and of our contributions to its work. The professionalism of the staff should also be reflected in the work of all Members individually and collectively. Therefore in discharging our duties as public representatives we welcome the services that are provided by staff members and their high degree of professionalism.

It is important for Assembly Members to obtain the best possible research facilities, and I welcome the Shadow Commission's steps in this regard. It is important that we educate ourselves in terms of those facilities, and it is particularly important for the Assembly to provide Members, as it has done, with hi-tech facilities and services to carry out their work in a professional manner. I welcome the steps that have been taken, and I look forward to the improved services that this report foreshadows.

It is essential that we move quickly to the appointment of the Clerk, the Deputy Clerk, head of administration and other staff for the Assembly. It is important for the discharge of our duties and for the creation of that professionalism that I referred to earlier.

The SDLP welcomes the Shadow Commission's commitment to public advertisement and its commitment to an equal opportunities policy and to a code of practice. That reflects the values of the Assembly, which was established to create fair play and opportunity for all in our community. If we were found wanting in this respect it would be highly damaging to the Assembly. Therefore the SDLP supports the Shadow Commission's recommendation.

One small point which was not addressed in the report, and I am not in any way quibbling, is the availability of medical services in the Assembly. I refer not so much to ongoing medical services but to emergency services. There is a first-aid facility in the House - and that is to be welcomed - but for an institution which will employ over 300 people plus 108 Assembly Members it is important that a proper emergency system is available if required. I hope that the Shadow Commission will look at this matter in some detail in the near future. I know that it has looked at it in broad terms, and I am aware that you, Mr Initial Presiding Officer, convened a preliminary meeting on it. I hope that this work will continue.

We have a wonderful opportunity to establish a new and exciting political forum for all our people in a new ultra-modern Assembly that is fit to serve the needs of the twenty-first century. The report is a substantial step forward in that process. I say "well done" to the Shadow Commission. Let us thank its members for all their work.

Mr S Wilson:

As we did not have the opportunity during questions this morning, I should now like to congratulate the Shadow Commission on its report. I am sure that Members will note that those Committees which are driven by Members seem to be able to issue their reports on time. Unfortunately, this has not been the case for the First and Deputy First Ministers (Designate), who have consistently produced their reports at the last minute. Perhaps in future the efficiency of Member-driven Committees could be emulated by the First Minister (Designate) and the Deputy First Minister (Designate).

Secondly - I will finish my licking in a minute or two - I congratulate my Colleague Peter Robinson and the SDLP and Alliance Party Members on the presentation of the report. I wish to raise a couple of issues which I feel are worthy of note.

As we heard this morning, the media are already jumping all over the report in relation to the costs of running the Assembly. That is to be expected because it is the kind of issue that makes a good headline with which the public can easily identify. Politicians are always good value for such speculation and activity.

However, I cannot understand why Members have feigned horror at the figures in the report. Mr Roy Beggs said that they would mean fewer classrooms and fewer hospital beds. Only last week - less than seven days ago - he voted for the very structures that have led to some of the costs that are outlined in the report. He took that action despite the fact that for days beforehand he had said that he would have nothing to do with them. It is one thing for the press to write about the cost of the Assembly, and another for those who voted for the structures that have given rise to these costs to come here and hold up their hands in horror.

Peter Robinson said this morning that if the architects of this establishment want this type of structure they cannot complain about the cost. My party has made it very clear that it will seek to keep the cost of democracy to a minimum. I hope that is true of all parties in the Assembly. I hope that we can have some democracy to start with and that when democratic structures are in place we will seek to keep costs to a minimum.

Mr Haughey:

The structures to which Mr Wilson seems to refer and which were voted upon last week, the Departments and so on, are not included in the costings.

Mr S Wilson:

I take issue with the Member on that. When we set up 10 Departments, there will be 10 Ministers. There are salary implications there, and the 10 Committees will have cost implications. The back-up for those Committees will have staffing implications, and I could go on. The report has implications for what we decided last week.

2.15 pm

Mr P Robinson:

While the Member is right to say that an additional burden will be created by the number of Committees, Committee Chairmen and back-up staff, the additional costs relating to Ministerial appointments will be borne by their Departments.

Mr S Wilson:

I thank my Colleague for that helpful intervention.

It is imperative that the Assembly should have nothing to do with the setting of Members' salaries and office costs allowances. It is right to leave this matter in the hands of an independent body.

I spoke earlier about the use of this building and the surrounding grounds. On each sitting day, it has been gratifying to see the number of people on guided tours around the building. It is good that this historic place is now accessible to people. We should record our gratitude to Mr Victor Bull, who has now left the events co-ordination section, and to his successor, Mr Dermot MacGreevy. Many members of the parties that I have brought here to be shown round by Mr Bull commented on his enthusiasm and love for the building. That enthusiasm rubbed off on those visitors. He did a magnificent job pioneering this work, and I have no doubt, having seen his enthusiasm, that Mr MacGreevy will provide Members with the same standard of service.

I do have some concerns about the use of the grounds. There has been considerable controversy about this, as you are aware, Mr Initial Presiding Officer. I do not think that all the suggestions made by the Secretary of State for the use of the grounds would have been of benefit to this place. Some of her proposals were inappropriate. I trust that the Commission will continue its consultation with the Department. As Mr Robinson has said, the Minister with responsibility for the Department of the Environment will be involved in making decisions on the use of the building and the grounds. We are not sure who that Minister will be, or how sympathetic he or she will be. For that reason I would prefer the Assembly to have the final say on this matter.

My final point relates to a matter that was raised earlier today, but to which my Colleague did not respond. I should like to hammer this point home. It was significant that the Commission visited Westminster. It is also significant that Mr Molloy of Sinn Féin was quite happy to visit the hated "Mother of Parliaments" to learn from that institution.

It is also interesting that - to use a term much used in the Assembly by Davy Ervine - Sinn Féin was unable to "choreograph" its party line on this matter. One Sinn Féin Member was on his way to Westminster, while another was condemning an Assembly Committee for wasting public money on doing the same thing. That Member - Mr McElduff - suggested that he had nothing to learn from the House of Commons. It is worthy of note that Sinn Féin seems unable to get its act together on the issue.

Mr J Kelly:

A Chathaoirligh, may I at the outset congratulate Mr Peter Robinson and the other members of the Shadow Commission on a comprehensive report. His address was also comprehensive. I also wish to acknowledge a Chathaoirligh the Assembly staff, who at all times treat Members with the utmost courtesy.

In terms of employment and equality, Sinn Féin's position is that equality is for all - Protestant and Catholic, men and women, black and white. We should not like to see equality being compartmentalised into either race or religion. We are pleased that the report states clearly that employment in this building will be open to all.

It is interesting to reflect on David Trimble's address last year to the Unionist Party conference, when he said that the agreement gives a chance to do what Craig and Carson did. Thank God that will not happen. Stormont, the Government Departments and the policies developed here should reflect the new reality. Not only do they need to accept that there will be Catholics about the place, but also Nationalists and Republicans, disabled people, ethnic minorities and women.

Sinn Féin will continue to insist, a Chathaoirligh, that equality is central to the whole process of government including, crucially, decisions on Government expenditure. We shall also continue to make government accessible to all the equality constituencies which have been excluded, by discrimination, from government in the past.

A Chathaoirligh, Sinn Féin does not want to dismantle the ethos of the building; we want to add to it. Its ethos should reflect all our diverse cultures, and in that regard we hope that the Irish language will find its rightful place in this Assembly, both in terms of its use and of the availability of translation.

I do not want to add much - the report is good and comprehensive. Sinn Féin agrees with its coverage of the issues.

Mr McCartney:

I hope that what I have to say will not bring forth, in the words of Assemblyman Ervine, "a cacophony of protest". Stormont is on a hill - some people might even think that it is something of an ivory tower. There is no doubt that when one arrives here there is an atmosphere of isolation. It would be a great mistake on the part of the Assembly to use that isolation to distance itself from the electorate and from the people who sent us here.

It is clear that many people from both the Unionist and Nationalist persuasions, will view the amount of money which has been assessed by the Commission as necessary for the future running of this place, with a degree of near horror. It seems that people have been conditioned, perhaps erroneously, to accept a cost of £14 million - a figure that caused some critical comment. The figure has sprung from £14 million to £36·78 million - almost £37 million - and there is at least a hint that it might ultimately exceed £40 million.

This will cause many people in Northern Ireland to view all the proceedings here with some suspicion, particularly as it is rumoured that the independent salaries board proposes to increase salaries from £30,000 to £37,500, and the amount for constituency purposes from £30,000 to £32,000. That is a total increase from about £60,000 to about £70,000.

It is prudent and wise to depute any future increases to an independent body. For the Assembly to retain control over awarding increases to Members would have been too much for the electorate to bear. The public would simply not wear that.

Mr Robinson made a valid point when he described himself and his Commission as being like the quantity surveyors who were not responsible for the design of the institution which this money was required to service and, in some circumstances, to erect. Let us look at the architecture.

There are 108 Assembly persons. The United Kingdom mainland, excluding Scotland and Wales, has approximately 52·5 million souls, yet the United Kingdom has only six times the number of elected representatives that are to service a population of 1·5 million. There are nearly 4 million people in Wales yet it is to get between 70 and 75 Members to look after the interests of considerably more than twice the population of Northern Ireland. Scotland has a population of 5·5 million. It will have perhaps 126 Members, and it will have greater powers, such as the power to raise taxes, than the Northern Ireland Assembly.

If one were to extrapolate the representation that the architect should properly have allowed for Northern Ireland, we might have about 60 or 70 Members at most. The architecture was necessary, not because the people of Northern Ireland require 108 Members, but because the political policies and the agenda of the British Government required that there should be 108 Members in order to service their own political objectives.

There is a similar situation with the Ministries. When I first spoke to the First Minister (Designate) and the Deputy First Minister (Designate) about the criteria for deciding the number of Ministries, I asked if the decision would be based on the number relevant to the efficient and economic good government of Northern Ireland, or whether the criterion was to be the maximum number to enable, for political purposes but not for good government purposes, the maximum number of Ministers to be included. There was the additional creation of junior Ministries, none of which was adumbrated in any way in the agreement.

We presently have £40 million probably allotted to the running of this place, and another £90 million is required to service 10 Ministries -a total of £130 million. Where will the £130 million come from? It will come from the block grant or it will be raised, as some suggest, by perhaps a 10% or 12% increase on the regional rate. In other words, we are having to pay for institutions of government designed by other people for their purposes and not directly related to the efficient and economic good government of Northern Ireland.

The Commission, which has done an excellent job, having regard to the architectural brief presented to it, has simply highlighted the real cost of government for Northern Ireland. That being the case, Members will have to show the public that they are giving good value for money for, in Northern Ireland terms, Members are getting very good money indeed.

2.30 pm

I have some minor comments. Alban Maginness suggested that we need some sort of medical service in case an unfortunate Assembly Member, due to strain, overwork or perhaps even the excitement of the place, requires urgent medical attention. We have a main hospital about five minutes away and an Assembly Member would need to be very excited, very overstressed or very overworked before needing services of such emergency as to require some sort of medical unit here.

Mr Roche said that £2 million was being allotted to research whereas, encapsulated in the £30,000, soon to become £32,500, allotted to Members for constituency work, there is a built-in allowance for research that is required or thought necessary by the individual Member. Indeed, I am told that some Members are employing researchers with a salary of £18,000 per annum. In those circumstances one would have to seriously question whether that Member would require, as Mr Roche quite properly pointed out, an additional £2 million spent on central research. Some money certainly needs to be available for central research, but whether we can afford to be as generous as has been suggested in the Commission's report is another matter.

I endorse entirely the sentiment that real equality of treatment, whether for Protestant, Catholic, Unionist, Nationalist, even Dissenter, should be available for everyone. That is a worthy objective. No democrat should be excluded from government. However, someone who is inextricably linked with an organisation that has demonstrated antipathy to any form of democracy should certainly be excluded.

There have been some comments about Craig and Carson. I suggest that those Members who have little knowledge of Unionist history should read Sir Edward Carson's parting valediction in which he laid down the leadership of the Unionist party. It would certainly open their eyes to what Carson felt about the Catholic population and how they should be treated - it would be worthy of being inscribed in any equality agenda.

Mr Haughey:

I also welcome the report and recognise the hard work that has gone into it. On behalf of myself and my party, I thank the members of the Shadow Commission for their service to the House in preparing this report.

In paragraph 14 of the report the Commission said that it realised quite early in its deliberations

"the enormity of the task of establishing the infrastructure required for the purpose of the Assembly."

Now that the report is before us, the House understands the enormity of that task. As well as thanking the members of the Commission, we owe a debt to all the Assembly staff for their long hours and dedication. My work with the Standing Orders Committee puts me in a better position than most to understand this.

I welcome in particular the provisions of paragraph 16, including the

"commitment to equality of opportunity and fair treatment in all its recruitment practices".

It is very welcome to see that so explicitly stated.

I welcome the commitment to the public advertisement of all vacancies, and particularly the reference in paragraph 16 to

"the establishment of a discrete cadre of Assembly staff which is not just an off-shoot of the NICS".

That is vital. We must reach out to the community and enlist and engage its vast resources of talent and ability. We should develop a different and independent approach to the problems of government from that which has become a traditional ethos in the Civil Service.

I have some concern about paragraph 20 which refers to the distinction between the responsibilities of the Commission and those of the Department of the Environment in respect of the Stormont Estate. It is very important that we have a clear and explicit dividing line between the two separate areas of responsibility.

It would be unfortunate if the Assembly were to allow circumstances to develop in which it found itself obligated to the discretion of a particular Department or Minister. We need to ensure that the Assembly's responsibility for its business, establishment and areas of operation remains discrete and distinct from the responsibilities of any Department or Minister.

In my question to Mr Robinson I referred to the provisions of paragraphs 25 to 29. Bob McCartney and other Members are perfectly correct to say that the House would not be fulfilling its remit if it did not avail itself of electronic access to the vast resources of information and research which are available to it from the various legislatures with which we have a relationship. As I said earlier, the European Commission and the European Parliament have vast resources of information and research available to Members, and it is comforting and pleasing to know that we will be tapping into them.

Like other Members, my Colleagues and I were concerned at the enormous increase from £14 million to £37 million. Mr Robinson's and Mr Fee's explanations set the context for that increase. The Commission ought to arrange for the fullest briefing for the media and for them to have a breakdown of these costs. Some journalists seem to have a predisposition for investigating minutely the remunerations and the expenses of public representatives. It is very important that the public does not misunderstand the size and dimension of these costs, and people should be fully briefed on how they have arisen. Sammy Wilson said that not all of these costs are additional. Some result from the transfer of certain areas of responsibility from Departments to the Assembly and do not therefore mean extra public expenditure.

Members will be aware of their responsibilities, given the cost of this exercise in democracy, to provide value for money and to ensure that this elected legislature enhances life and brings about economic and social advancement in the community. If that happens it will be seen in retrospect that the cost incurred was money well spent on a new approach to democracy which enhanced the community and reinvigorated its economy.

I commend this report to the House.

Mr Molloy:

A Chathaoirligh, thank you for the opportunity to lend my support to the report and to commend it to the Assembly. It is a joint and agreed report, and an important indicator of how things can be done if Members get on with the work in hand. Members of the Commission worked well together in a businesslike manner in taking on the responsibility that the Assembly vested in them.

The Commission set out very clearly from its inception that it would adhere to the fair employment regulations and publicise all available jobs. Those are important criteria which we need to maintain throughout the Assembly. The provision for new staffing means that we will recruit publicly for all the positions that may come about over the next 12 months, or whatever time is necessary to get everything in place. The current target figure is 400, and that will add to the cost of running the Assembly.

We must try to make this establishment family-friendly so that people feel free to come and express their opinions. We must also make provision for child care. A crèche facility in this Building may not be the best means of doing that. Would one wish to take a child to the basement of this Building? Is that the best place to provide a crèche? One of the questions that we heard in Westminster was "Would you bring a child into the centre of London if childcare facilities were provided for Members there?"

There has to be further consultation with all Members and their staff to ensure that we provide the best facilities. Perhaps the provision of such facilities on a voucher basis, as in Westminster, is the best way forward. Members will need to make us aware of future arrangements that they may need for childcare.

The Commission has been in shadow form, but it has been a good working example for the Assembly. Work has been done, but more requires to be done. As a member of Sinn Féin, I emphasise our commitment to making the Assembly work. People seek commitments, and this is one example of Sinn Féin's commitment. There are many other issues that we need to deal with, and as they arise the Commission will deal with them.

There has been much talk about costs. There is nothing to stop any Member refusing to take salary increases or to take a salary at all. Those who have jobs elsewhere and other earnings could look at that, although perhaps that is not the best way to go about it. It is easy for people to rush out of here to make cheap political points on radio or in the press, against their opponents or even their party or former party members. We need to make it clear that it is up to the Assembly to decide for the future. We should do that collectively here, and should not run outside to do it.

We are looking at the cost of the new Committees. There could be as many as 20 such Committees and if Members did not get the opportunity to monitor all those Committees, they would rightly complain. We cannot provide that opportunity without the necessary finance, and we need to take on that responsibility, which runs right across the board.

Mr Wilson and Mr McCrea asked about London. I did travel to London, and I was very happy to accompany Mr Peter Robinson and the other members of the Commission. We had a good working relationship over the two days. That was important. We can all learn, and we can learn from travel, so I make no apology for going to London. What my colleagues do in other situations is a matter for them. One of the lessons that people can learn from Sinn Féin in various ways is that the party is not a monolith. We do not just take directions from the top irrespective of our feelings. It is important to look at the issue in a broader sense.

2.45 pm

On the Friday evening in London, it became clear that within the estimates there was not enough cover for the work that will be involved in the Assembly over the next few years. It was clear that we had to review those estimates, and we arranged a meeting for the Saturday. All the heads of Departments came here on the Saturday morning to work out the revised budgets. I pay tribute to the Clerk, the Initial Presiding Officer and his staff, and all the heads of Departments who worked throughout that weekend to ensure that by Monday morning we had revised budgets. It was clearly a team effort between the Assembly, the Commission and the Departments to ensure realistic figures to present the Assembly with a programme for the future.

Members of the Shadow Commission were asked to present the Assembly with a report. It is clear that when they knew the project and had a target, civil servants, Commission members and staff all worked together to ensure that it was met. It is an example for the future because if the members of the Commission can work together, there is no reason why the members of an Executive cannot work together in the same way. I ask the First and Deputy First Ministers (Designate) to move speedily to set up the Executive, so that we can again show a commitment to make structures work.

The Commission took very difficult decisions, and I again pay tribute to the Initial Presiding Officer for guiding us to those difficult decisions in difficult times. No doubt more difficult decisions will have to be taken, but I have no doubt that that will be done.

The costs need to be looked at again, more along the lines of the transfer of those costs rather than just adding them to the other costs. When we start to dismantle the quangos, there will be squealing from different quarters, but we can transfer that finance into the Departments. If we could end the Drumcree crisis we could save thousands of pounds over the next year. I hope that those with influence in that quarter will try to resolve that situation because the money saved could be used in hospitals and schools and for other services rather than be wasted.

I say especially to Members opposite that there is a danger sometimes that people cannot recognise change or commitment when they are staring them in the face. I ask Members to judge us by our commitment, our workload and our participation and not to get hung up on old clichés of the past. We can and should move forward, and today is an example of us moving forward. Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh.

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