I support the motion, as do the majority of Committee members. It was considered at our meeting on 3 October. I sincerely hope that the issue of redundancy consultation does not become one of personal interest to myself and other MLAs. Seriously, it is an important issue. As the Minister rightly said, it is important that codes of practice be in place to attempt to achieve best practice in the field of industrial relations. The draft code is unique to Northern Ireland, but it revises an existing Northern Ireland code. The regulatory and equality impact assessments have been favourable in this case. I urge the House to support the motion.

I welcome the Committee Chairperson's remarks. The draft code balances the duties of both employers and employees, with the emphasis on responsible behaviour. Prior to any proposed redundancies, proper adherence to the draft code will reduce the likelihood of conflict and the possibility of misunderstanding when redundancies are declared.

TOP

Assembly Ombudsman for Northern Ireland
(Assembly Standards) Bill: Period Extension

The following motion stood in the Order Paper:

In view of circumstances outside the control of the Committee of the Centre, I beg to not move the motion.

TOP

Harbours Bill: Period Extension

The following motion stood in the Order Paper:

Acting on advice on this very sad day, I beg to not move the motion.

TOP

Oral Answers to Questions

Education

1.

asked the Minister of Education if he will make it his policy to support, and provide the lead in, the creation of an integrated teacher-training college.

(AQO 343/02)

The Minister of Education (Mr M McGuinness): The creation of an integrated teacher-training college would lie within the responsibilities of my Colleague, the Minister for Employment and Learning. I am not aware that any such proposal is being considered.

I regret that that is the only response to my question. The Minister has called for the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, page 18 of which calls for the promotion of initiatives to facilitate and encourage integrated education. My party was responsible for inserting that proposal.

Does the Minister agree that in order for integrated education to work, teachers must be trained specifically in that area? As he takes the lead in policy, will he not agree to push for an integrated teacher-training college as one of his last deeds in the Assembly? Is it not a fact that teacher training is the only segregated third-level education system, and is that not an utter disgrace?

The Good Friday Agreement states that an essential aspect of the reconciliation process is the promotion of a culture of tolerance at every level of society, including initiatives to facilitate and encourage integrated education. Since taking up office, I have clearly demonstrated my commitment to the duty that the agreement places on my Department.

The question of teacher-training institutions can be answered only after full discussion and debate, not only with the teacher-training institutions but also with the schools and colleges that they serve. The practical implications of the Member's question are primarily a matter for my Colleague, the Minister for Employment and Learning.

TOP

2.

asked the Minister of Education to outline (a) if he has taken any further action on the Burns proposals and (b) what that action was.

(AQO 334/02)

On 8 October 2002 I published a report summarising the responses to the consultation on the Burns Report. I made a statement in the Assembly outlining the next steps and announced my commitment to abolish the transfer test as soon as is practical. I am absolutely determined that my decision to abolish the test will not be thwarted by political developments.

On 11 October I announced that the last tests will be held in 2004. That decision allows my Department to proceed with work with our key education partners to build on the emerging consensus and to develop new arrangements finally to consign the transfer test to history. To allow the suspension of the Assembly to delay the abolition of the test and the development of new post-primary arrangements would only prolong the unfairness and inequalities of the current system, and I am not prepared to countenance that.

Given that the Minister's announcement was made, to some extent, under cover of darkness, how does he square the fact that 64% of parents, 62% of teachers and 50% of pupils support the retention of academic selection, according to his own recent survey? Is it not the case that his decision was driven by petty political malice and his own personal prejudices?

Petty political malice has no place in the education of our children.

Two thirds of those who returned the household response form supported the retention of academic selection. Those views are important and will be taken into account. However, they cannot be considered to be fully representative of the wider public, because only 16% of the population responded to the household survey. The response rate from well-off areas was almost three times greater than that from the poorest areas. Responses from the parents of grammar-school pupils were over-represented by more than 50%, given the proportion of children who attend grammar schools.

In developing new arrangements, my Department and its key education partners must examine the views of the public as expressed through all strands of the consultation in responses from the education partners, schools, churches, community organisations and political parties. Some - [Interruption].

Order.

Let me go further, some members of the Committee for Education are focusing exclusively on the responses to the household response form on academic selection. The position they have now adopted is an about-turn from their previous position when consulted on the household response form, when they said:

However, that is precisely what the Member and his Colleagues are doing. The Member's party is also trumpeting the views of teachers who responded to the household response form - the same teachers about whom they said:

Having previously rubbished the views of the public and of the teachers, the Ulster Unionist Party and the Democratic Unionist Party members of the Education Committee are now citing them in support of their case. That is the lowest form of political point-scoring on an issue of the highest importance. From the outset, I have made it clear that the consultation would be multi-stranded and account would be taken of responses to all of the strands, and I am sticking to that commitment.

In contrast to the political point-scoring by the UUP and the DUP, I have given clear leadership to the education sector by announcing a date for the end of these iniquitous tests. That will provide the impetus to develop new arrangements, and my Department will be working with its key education partners to take that work forward by building on the consensus that has emerged from the consultation. [Interruption].

Order. The Member had an opportunity to ask his questions.

The SDLP's position on the 11-plus is well known to the Minister and to the Assembly. Does the Minister agree that his announcement on Friday, if it is to take effect, must include a decision about what will replace the 11-plus in 2004? Will he tell the House whether any decisions have been taken about what will come into being in 2005 and thereafter?

I have made it clear that the transfer tests will not be part of education here in the future. My Department will be working with its education partners to determine how we move forward in relation to new transfer arrangements. A range of suggestions for alternative post-primary arrangements was included in the responses to the consultation, and my Department, in consultation with its education partners, will consider those further.

Those who support academic selection agreed that substantial modifications to the current system are required. There was some support for all-ability schools, or a fully comprehensive school system, operating on the basis of catchment areas. There was broad support from our education partners - all the education and library boards, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools, the teachers' unions and others - for a system of informed election, whereby parents and pupils consider information and advice about the pupil and the range of educational opportunities and courses available and choose or elect which courses or institutions to apply for admission to. Whatever structure is put in place must enable all pupils to have educational provision that meets their individual learning needs and enables them to fulfil their potential. That is what it is about.

Children are central to how we move forward. The matter is more about children than institutions.

For someone who has based his life on not answering questions by remaining silent during lengthy interrogations by the security forces, the Minister appears to have adopted a new tack today: he spends around six minutes speaking on a question without answering it.

Perhaps I may remind him of the original question. The Minister has said that the responses that he received in the household survey were not representative. He described the monitoring survey as a representative sample of 2,000 homes, and it produced the same result as the household survey. Why does he still insist on ignoring the results of a survey in which the people said that they wished to retain academic selection and which he has himself described as representative? Why did the Minister say on Tuesday 8 October 2002 in his statement that he would

He went on to say that he would announce proposals for the review's next stage in December. Why has he broken that promise? He said that he would listen to the people, yet he has ignored them. He said that he would listen to the Assembly, yet he has ignored it. Perhaps he will explain why his final act as Minister of Education has simply reinforced the view that he is duplicitous, deceitful -

Order. The Member has made his question clear.

Last Tuesday, no decision on suspension had been taken. I am determined - [Interruption].

It is an act of desperation.

Order.

There is no desperation about me. I am determined that political developments will not prevent progress on that vital issue.

Consultation on the Burns Report showed overwhelming support for the abolition of the transfer test, and last Tuesday I made clear my commitment to ending it as soon as practicable. By making clear that the transfer test will end in 2004, I have exhibited clear leadership to the education sector and provided the impetus for this important work to be continued. Many respondents acknowledged the achievements of the system of academic selection but argued that it is not adequate or acceptable for the future.

The predominant view from the consultation is that academic selection at the age of 11 should end. Some support depended on certain conditions being met. However, those in favour included - and this is extremely important - all five education and library boards; the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools; the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education; Comhairle na Gaelscolaíochta; the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment; the five main teachers' unions; the Catholic Heads Association and the Association of Head Teachers in Secondary Schools; two thirds of schools; the Northern Catholic bishops and the Transferor Representatives' Council, which represents Protestant churches; those institutes of higher and further education that responded; the Confederation of British Industry; the SDLP; Sinn Féin; the Alliance Party; the Progressive Unionist Party; the Women's Coalition; the Workers' Party; 30 % of those who returned the household response forms and the majority of the voluntary and community interests that responded; the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission; the Children's Law Centre; the Comptroller and Auditor General; the Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trades Unions; and the Northern Ireland Public Service Alliance. Some complain about the decision that was taken last Friday to abolish the transfer tests. I heard some people claim - [Interruption].

Order.

I heard some people claim at the opening of the sitting that no consultation took place with the Executive. Ulster Unionist members of the Executive are on the record as stating that it was very unlikely that the Executive would meet again in its present form.

That decision was well within my competence as Minister of Education. I am within my rights to take that decision - [Interruption].

Order.

It is about the future education of our children - [Interruption].

Order. The Member will find it difficult to ask his supplementary question from outside the Chamber.

I wish that the Unionist Members of the House would take their responsibilities seriously and focus on the needs of children. This issue concerns children. It concerns the way in which the Assembly should progress. I do not know how long suspension will last. However, I believe that whoever manages the Department of Education in the foreseeable future will be guided by the important decisions that have been taken.

I do not see Mr Conor Murphy in his place. Therefore Mr Hay may ask his question to the Minister.

TOP

4.

asked the Minister of Education whether discussions have commenced with Foyle and Londonderry College regarding a new site; and to make a statement.

(AQO 280/02)

My Department has carried out an economic appraisal in order to identify suitable educational facilities that will meet the curricular needs of pupils who attend Foyle and Londonderry College. The issue is under consideration.

Everybody knows the history of the school, which is situated on the west bank of the River Foyle. The school has enjoyed working with, and educating, the young people of the west bank for many years. During the past 30 years the school has had no choice but to try to find a site on the east bank of the river. During the 1970s and 1980s many Protestants were forced to leave the west bank because of Republican violence, and they continue to do so. Will the Minster confirm that there was no opposition to the school's moving to the east bank? Has a new site been identified on the east bank?

The relocation of Foyle and Londonderry College is the subject of a development proposal that was published by the Western Education and Library Board on 10 May 2002. In addition to that development proposal, further work must be undertaken by my officials in conjunction with the school in order to give me a full assessment of the situation. The board of governors has also indicated that it would like to meet me. That meeting is now unlikely to take place in the foreseeable future. The board's views should be heard before any decision is taken. However, I cannot put a timescale on that.

How does the Minister intend to use the obsolete site? Will he ensure that it is not used solely for housing development?

I do not want to speculate on how the site will be used. My stewardship of the matter is to recognise that the relocation of the college is the subject of a development proposal from the Western Education and Library Board. When that has been dealt with and a decision has been taken, there will be keen interest in the city of Derry to ensure that the site is used for proper and useful purposes. I have tremendous sympathy with the Member's last point. However, as Minister of Education, I have no control over housing in the Derry area.

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Does the Minster agree that the threatened closure of Templemore Secondary School, and the planned retreat of Foyle College to the Waterside, may contribute to the reduction of cultural diversity on the city side of Derry and adversely affect the freedom of parents to choose non-denominational schools for their children?

I am aware that that issue is hotly debated in Derry. I understand the concerns that have been expressed.

That said, decisions on the future of Templemore Secondary School and the issue of Foyle and Londonderry College will, unfortunately, have to be taken by someone else in the coming weeks and months. If that person is not prepared to take those decisions, or chooses not to, whoever returns as Minister of Education after suspension will have to deal with the matter then.

The questions today were specifically about Foyle and Londonderry College. I have laid out exactly how we intend to proceed on the issue. More work must be done. We should wait until officials and others meet the board of governors and take their own decision.

Mr John Kelly is not in the Chamber. We shall proceed with the next question.

TOP

6.

asked the Minister of Education what plans he has to address the under-provision of places, and other problems, at Dromore High School.

(AQO 289/02)

My Department, in consultation with the Southern Education and Library Board, which is responsible for the planning of school provision in the area, previously agreed a long-term enrolment figure of 740 pupils as appropriate for Dromore High School, based on an annual year 8 intake of 148. However, following a request from the school to introduce post-16 provision, that figure is currently under review.

The long-term enrolment takes account of any development in the area, as well as the number of pupils coming through the primary sector. It is not, however, my Department's policy to increase the number of places at schools, with the consequential implications for capital expenditure, simply to cater for demand, while places are available in other suitable schools within reasonable distance.

The outcome of the review, and a decision regarding post-16 provision at Dromore High School, will be made known to the board of governors of the school as soon as possible.

There has been much prevarication over the provision of sixth-form places at Dromore High School. The time has come for answers, not further consultation. Every year, 30 children are turned away from the school. The area is scheduled to almost double in population.

The Minister will no longer be a Minister after tonight. I do not know what he turns into after midnight, given his past history. However, it is time that the Department grasped the nettle and provided the places necessary for children in Dromore. The school cannot go on operating with the current intake levels.

My Department's current policy on new and existing sixth-form provision in secondary schools is to leave such provision to each school's discretion, providing the school can accommodate it within its existing approved accommodation. My officials are considering the issue and, depending on other priorities, hope to complete the review in the near future.

TOP

7.

asked the Minister of Education what incentives are available to schools to organise breakfast meetings aimed at encouraging greater participation among parents, teachers, pupils, classroom assistants and community groups providing classroom support.

(AQO 324/02)

The Department does not fund out-of-school activities, as it would divert scarce resources from the classroom. Therefore, there are no incentives universally available to schools to organise breakfast meetings. Some schools have been able to establish breakfast clubs for pupils with funding made available to them through the new opportunities fund from the Belfast Regeneration Office.

Is the Minister aware that there have been welcome and remarkable improvements in standards of literacy and numeracy in some of the most socially deprived areas? In Belfast especially, schools have sought support from this type of back-up. Will the Minister leave a note on his ministerial desk instructing the Department to give that top priority, so that the awful scourge of illiteracy and innumeracy can be alleviated?

As well as helping to promote the regular, prompt attendance of some children, breakfast clubs can provide a healthy breakfast for some pupils who might not otherwise have the chance. Indeed, if I had the resources, I would expand breakfast clubs, especially in schools serving areas of severe social disadvantage.

I know that John Dallat has a keen interest in literacy and numeracy, and I have tremendous sympathy with the arguments that he has made. There is no doubt that we must consistently challenge ourselves to see what more can be done to ensure that literacy standards are raised.

The Minister has stated that no moneys will be made available for participation by parents, teachers, pupils and classroom assistants in out-of-school activities. Can the Minister or his Department confirm that any assistance - it may not take the form of money - will be equitable and given in parity to all state schools as opposed to only Irish-language schools and those schools represented by the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools? In the past, those schools have been given priority over state schools.

The concept of equality is important to the Department in its deliberations on the education of all children.

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Cuirim fáilte roimh cheist an Uasail Dallat. I welcome my Colleague's question, and particularly his emphasis on harnessing all the energies around schools to create a school and community partnership. However, I am not sure that breakfast meetings are the best mechanism for doing that. What does the Minister consider to be the best mechanism for achieving real participation among parents, teachers and pupils in a school and community partnership?

My Department accepts that parents have an important role to play in their children's education and has made limited funding available to each education and library board for a range of targeted parenting initiatives. In addition, under existing and proposed legislation, a school must consult parents about its discipline and anti-bullying policies. The Education and Training Inspectorate also seeks parents' views when undertaking a general inspection of a school.

TOP

8.

asked the Minister of Education to outline the next steps he intends to take in his review of post-primary education.

(AQO 318/02)

In last week's statement, I said that building consensus remains the best way by which to make progress and that the considerable consensus demonstrated by the responses to the consultation provides a sound platform from which to move the review forward. I also outlined my plans to meet key stakeholders in education to listen to their views on responses to the consultation and on how best to make progress on the post-primary review before announcing proposals for the next steps in December. I am determined that the overwhelming demand for abolition of the transfer test shall not be thwarted by the suspension of the Assembly, and I announced on Friday that the last transfer test will be held in November 2004. The Department of Education will meet the key stakeholders as part of the process of developing new arrangements that are fair and that will enable all children to reach their full potential regardless of their background or circumstances.

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the Minister's answer and, in particular, the move on the 11-plus. Many teachers and parents have already been in touch to express their delight that this flawed and divisive test is truly on its way out. Does the Minister believe that to suspend the institutions at a time when the education system is planning such fundamental change is nothing short of political vandalism?

As a Minister in an Executive that has only a few hours to run, I am saddened and disappointed that the institutions established under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement are to be suspended from midnight tonight - [Interruption].

Order.

On and off over the course of the past three years, I have worked happily with my Unionist and SDLP Colleagues in the Executive. All of us, including the DUP Ministers, have done good work on behalf of the people. I was struck by John Reid's press conference this morning and the Ministers who were lined up beside him in front of the television cameras. They are probably all good and decent people, but none of them is from here. They do not know the communities, the geography and our problems as we know them. Of course, they will be overloaded by several portfolios.

The suspension of the institutions will be detrimental to our economy and to our health and education systems. I am saddened by that. Whatever happens, there will be a huge responsibility on all of us - not least on the two Prime Ministers, Mr Ahern and Mr Blair - to ensure that we get the institutions back up again in the interests of the future of our people.

Including your spy ring.[Interruption].

You nearly lost your seat there.

Copy that.

Order. Time is up.

TOP

Health, Social Services and Public Safety

1.

asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to outline, for each health service board (a) the waiting time for an initial fertility clinic consultation and (b) the waiting time for each type of fertility treatment.

(AQO 339/02)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Áirítear seirbhísí neamhthorthúlachta sna ceithre bhord sláinte agus seirbhísí sóisialta mar chlinicí ginearálta gínéiceolaíochta; mar sin de níl saineolas ar bith ar fáil maidir le hamanna feithimh do chlinicí neamhthorthúlachta.

Cuimsíonn cóireáil neamhthorthúlachta drugaí, máinliacht, inseamhnú saorga agus teicníochtaí cúnta giniúna mar IVF (toirchiú in vitro). Fanann cuid othar le cóireáil agus iad ar liostaí feithimh ginearálta, mar shampla, i ngnícéiceolaíocht, agus ní féidir iad a mhiondealú de réir diagnóise nó de réir reachta.

Fertility services in the four health and social services boards are counted under general gynaecology clinics, and no specific information in regard to waiting times for infertility clinics is available. Infertility treatment includes drugs, surgery, artificial insemination and assisted conception techniques, such as in vitro fertilisation (IVF). Some patients await treatment on general waiting lists - for example, in gynaecology - and it is not possible to disaggregate those by diagnosis or condition.

Does the Minister envisage that in future those details might be separated so that we can see the number of people on a waiting list, particularly for infertility treatment? Given the expense of private treatment for infertility, has the Minister any plans to improve availability of the service and to reduce the waiting times for consultations?

There are two difficulties with regard to the future. One is obvious in today's context; the other is that, on an increasing number of issues, Members have asked about disaggregating the information to a level which simply is not possible. It is difficult to acquire the information, and it would place the system under added pressure.

With regard to improving the service, it was precisely because this was such a difficult matter and because there was no publicly funded sub-fertility service, that I decided to proceed with an interim service while working on what should be provided in future. The interim service provides only limited service, based on existing resources. However, I emphasise that it enables some couples to have access to publicly funded sub-fertility treatment, which, formerly, was provided only privately.

TOP

2.

asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to outline, for the last 10 month period, (a) the number of brain surgery operations that have taken place and (b) the number of people waiting for surgery.

(AQO 309/02)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Níl fáil ar an eolas ar líon na n-obráidí máinliacht inchinne a rinneadh agus ar líon na daoine atá ag fanacht le máinliacht, mar ní mhiondealaítear liostaí feithimh ar an speisialtacht néarmháinliachta ina gcatagóirí ar leith.

The information requested is not available, as waiting lists in the neurosurgery speciality are not broken down into separate categories.

I am disappointed with the Minister's response. She is aware that the 82-year-old mother of one of my constituents was told in December 2001 that she needed surgery for a brain tumour.

Almost 12 months later, Hanna Glascott is still waiting. Two weeks ago, the Minister's office told me that she was in line for surgery. Her family has heard absolutely nothing. Will the Minister explain what is happening? Will she assure me that Mrs Glascott has not been put to the bottom of the list because of her age?

I assure Ms Morrice that no one is put to the bottom of a waiting list because of age and that Mrs Glascott has most definitely not been put to the bottom of the list because of her age. As Ms Morrice knows, right up until I came here today, my office has been dealing with her to determine what to provide for Mrs Glascott and the steps that must be taken to do that.

Ms Morrice referred to the breakdown of information. It is not possible to break down the numbers waiting for speciality services, and, if it were, it would not necessarily improve the provision of those services. Measures to improve the provision of speciality services include, for example, the considerable efforts being made by the Royal Group of Hospitals to address current problems, which include the introduction of three additional theatre lists; provision of funding for two additional beds for elective surgery; improvements in discharge times; a substantial increase in the number of nurse training places; and - [Interruption].

Not by September this year.

Order.

It ill behoves a Deputy Speaker to interrupt the Minister who is trying to answer her question.

I need answers.

Provision has been made to fund four nurses, on a supernumerary basis, to attract them to the neurosurgery speciality. Therefore, work has been done to improve discharge times; provide additional nurses and theatre lists; and find funding for two additional beds for elective surgery.

Is practice in the United Kingdom the same as in Europe, where surgery is performed at the weekend?

Practices vary between different countries in Europe. Some practices are similar here, and some are not. Specific work has been done on elective surgery here, and questions have been asked about the payments that have been made for it. Negotiations must take place for people to work outside their normal hours, and that issue is also being addressed through the negotiations on consultant contracts.

Does the Minister accept that many people who suffer from brain illnesses experience great concern and anxiety, especially given the NHS categorisation that ranges between "very serious illness" and "life-threatening illness"? Does the Minister accept that no patient should have to make a choice between going private, because of the urgency of the situation, and waiting for an NHS operation?

As I have said many times in the Assembly, I agree that staff in the health and personal social services deal with the legacy of years of considerable underfunding. Daily, they are faced with questions that must be answered and decisions that must be taken in a far from ideal context. In neurosurgery, the more urgent cases are assessed daily and treated in accordance with clinical priority. It would, therefore, not be possible for us to move away from a service that is based, not on age or any other criterion, but on clinical priority.

TOP

3.

asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what steps she is taking to establish a Northern Ireland bone marrow tissue-typing database.

(AQO 333/02)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Cuireann an tSeirbhís Fuilaistrithe anseo, i gcomhar leis an tSaortharlann Tíopála Fíocháin, go suntasach cheana le Clár Deontóirí Smeara na Breataine. Tá timpeall is 7,000 deontóirí áitiúil ann, ar dheonaigh thart ar 50 acu smior. Tá clár smeara fosta ag Iontaobhas Anthony Nolan agus ag an Chlár Smeara Idirnáisiúnta; tá comhoibriú ann idir na cláir uilig.

The Blood Transfusion Service, in conjunction with the local tissue-typing laboratory, already contributes significantly to the British Bone Marrow Donor Registry. Approximately 50 of the 7,000 local donors have donated bone marrow. The Anthony Nolan Trust and International Bone Marrow Transplant Registry also hold bone marrow registers, and all registries co-operate.

Will the Minister recommend to her successor that he or she, at an early date, extend to Northern Ireland the existing model for a bone marrow database similar to that already established in England?

A successful outcome in unrelated bone marrow transplantation is critically dependent on an exact match between the donor and patient. The nature of the blood typing that is required to find an exact match means that hundreds of thousands of donors are necessary in order to have a reasonable chance of finding a match, and there are approximately 160,000 donors on the British Bone Marrow Donor Registry. We must take those issues into account when we consider separating from that system.

Since the service began, the public here has shown a lot of interest by volunteering for the programme. The existing bone marrow programme has operated successfully for many years and has resulted in over 50 volunteers donating bone marrow. Our current connection means that anything extra that is done through the NHS will also have a positive, knock-on effect on access to the service here.

Is the answer "yes" or "no"?

Order.

TOP

<< Prev / Next >>