Amendments to Standing Orders

Mr Speaker:

There are three motions in the Order Paper to amend Standing Orders. They all relate to the same issue. Therefore I wish to conduct one debate only - if, indeed, debate there be. I shall ask the Clerk to read the first motion and then call the Chairperson of the Committee on Procedures to move that motion. Debate will then take place on all three motions and all who wish to speak, including the mover, will speak in that single debate. When all who wish to speak have done so, I will call the Chairperson to make a winding-up speech, if there have been any interventions. I will then put the question on the first motion. I will then ask the Chairperson to formally move each motion in turn and separately put the question on each motion without further debate. If that is clear, I will proceed.

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle.

I beg to move:

This group of motions deals with the scrutiny of subordinate legislation and arises out of the Committee on Procedures' report on its review of the legislative process. On 26 February 2002 the Assembly endorsed the recommendations of the report, of which this is one.

The substantive motion is to amend Standing Order 41. Due to changes in numbering, consequential amendments to Standing Orders 12 and 54 will be required.

Although the legislative review concentrated on primary legislation, the Committee found that there were several examples of subordinate legislation - [Interruption].

Order.

- that is, Statutory Rules that did not come under Assembly scrutiny. It noted the recommendation by the Examiner of Statutory Rules in his report for the period December 1999 to July 2001 that Standing Orders should be amended to ensure that all subordinate legislation is subject to, or at least liable to, scrutiny by the Assembly.

The Examiner of Statutory Rules highlighted how, under existing Standing Orders, the scrutiny role of the Assembly is limited to Statutory Rules or draft Statutory Rules, which are made under the primary legislation that comes within the remit of the Assembly. The effect of that, he explained, was that many Statutory Rules, which exercise considerable power over people's lives, escaped scrutiny by the Assembly.

He gave as an example orders made under the Diseases of Animals (Modification) Order (Northern Ireland) 1996, which are not laid before the Assembly but which regulate the way in which people conduct their business or the way animals are marketed. The Examiner highlighted the fact that that was not the case at Westminster, where procedures were in place to ensure that all legislation was subject to parliamentary scrutiny.

The Committee agreed with the Examiner on the importance of the Assembly having in place procedures to ensure the closest examination of all legislation. As such, that is reflected in paragraph (2) of the proposed amendments to Standing Order 41.

The Committee considered another issue raised by the Examiner to amend Standing Orders to require a Committee, when scrutinising the Statutory Rule, to draw it to the attention of the Assembly where it requires a payment to be made in respect of a licence or consent or other service from a public body. That is not provided for in current Standing Orders.

The Examiner suggested that such a requirement should be qualified, so that an imposition of a charge, or the prescription of the amount of the charge, should be reported only where it appeared to the Committee that its imposition called for the special attention of the Assembly. The Committee agreed that the imposition of charges on the public should be drawn to the attention of the Assembly. That would bring it into line with existing practice in Westminster and in the Scottish Parliament. The Committee accepted the recommendation of the Examiner of Statutory Rules, and that has been incorporated in paragraph (6) of the proposed amendment to Standing Order 41.

I commend the amendments to the Assembly.

Committee for Employment and Learning:
Change of Membership

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Resolved:

I would like to draw the attention of the House to the visit of honoured guests to the Assembly. The President, or Speaker, of the Assembly of Kosovo, Prof Nexhat Daci, is here with several Members of the Kosovan Parliament. They are in the distinguished visitors Gallery, and I am sure that the House would wish me to welcome them. They will be here for two or three days and will meet with representatives of all the Members and various Committees and bodies of the Assembly. [Applause].

Oral Answers to Questions

First Minister and Deputy First Minister

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Question 3 in the name of Mr Molloy has been withdrawn and will receive a written answer. Questions 1 and 2 stand in the names of Mr Gibson and Mr Paisley Jnr respectively. However, they are not in their places.

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4.

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister what assessment the Executive have made of Her Majesty The Queen's Jubilee tour of Northern Ireland.

(AQO 1422/01)

The Executive have not taken an overall view of Her Majesty The Queen's Golden Jubilee visit to Northern Ireland. However, we were delighted that the programme for the visit provided opportunities for people from all walks of life, and from across Northern Ireland, to participate in the events and to show the warmth of their feelings and good wishes for Her Majesty in her Golden Jubilee year.

Does the First Minister take encouragement from the Queen's statement at Stormont, which welcomed

Does he also agree that the visit was a great example of that normality?

I endorse the Member's comments. In the well-judged remarks that she made in the Great Hall of this Building, Her Majesty referred to

albeit one

We should examine other similar events to develop further that sense of normality. In the context of Her Majesty's visit to Northern Ireland, it has occurred to me that an invitation by the Government of the Irish Republic to Her Majesty to pay a state visit to the Republic of Ireland would be a sign of developing normality.

Question 5 stands in the name of Mr Ford. However, he is not in his place.

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6.

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, in the light of recent coverage about world debt, what steps are being taken to ensure that the views of the Northern Ireland Executive are represented at the G8 summit in Canada at the end of June 2002.

(AQO 1448/01)

Ministers are aware of the difficulties of heavily indebted poor countries, where resources are diverted to interest payments on debt and are unavailable for vital programmes such as health and education. Ten billion pounds are spent annually on servicing a debt of over £200 billion in those countries - money that could be spent much more productively. Responsibility for international development lies with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for International Development. Therefore, there are no plans for the Executive to consider the issue of world debt in the near future. We will not be making representations to the UK Government in advance of the G8 summit next month.

I am disappointed that OFMDFM will not be making representations on the matter. I draw the attention of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to the fact that the people of Northern Ireland are concerned about international matters, and it is appropriate that the Assembly have an opportunity to make their views known.

Are the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister aware that only 85% of the promises made in 1999 at the Cologne conference on world debt have been acted on? The payment of interest on the debts means that basic health and education standards are not being met. An estimated 19,000 children die in developing countries every day.

Order. The Member has put his question.

I appreciate Mr McGrady's interest in world debt, and his concern was evident in his supplementary question. However, this is a reserved matter, so it would be more appropriate to raise it in the House of Commons, of which Mr McGrady is a Member. The United Kingdom Government's policy is very similar to his suggestion. The Chancellor has played a significant part in the measures to relieve the debt burden, but it is a complex issue. The burden arose partly because of changed economic circumstances, but largely as a result of self-inflicted problems such as the wars that have taken place in too many developing countries. Often, we are dealing with a symptom, but it should be addressed as sympathetically as possible.

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7.

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a statement on the problem of racially motivated hate crimes.

(AQO 1436/01)

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20.

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to give an update on plans to introduce legislation to tackle hate crimes.

(AQO 1425/01)

With your permission, Mr Speaker, we shall answer questions 7 and 20 together. We deplore all racially motivated and sectarian attacks, which have no place in civilised society. Criminal justice, including the criminal law on racially motivated and sectarian crime, is a reserved matter. The Secretary of State has announced his intention to consult on the scope for strengthening the law in that area, and we await with interest the publication of his proposals.

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Member for his statement that sectarian crime has no place in society. Should Members be more proactive in encouraging the public to embrace ethnic minorities, particularly those who come from abroad to work for a long time, who often experience difficulties?

We must ensure that people are much more aware and sensitive to the needs of, and pressures on, members of ethnic minority communities, and the frequent insidious attacks on them. The Administration have been trying to examine those issues and to hear from those who are directly affected. The Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency examined the pernicious effects of such crime on ethnic minority communities. We must do more to promote the equality and rights of everyone, including those from ethnic minorities.

Does the Minister agree that any form of intolerance is to be deplored? Does he further agree that greater community support is required for the police if race crimes are to be combated, including support from Mr McHugh's party?

Any crime victims would, understandably, wish to turn to the relevant statutory agencies, including the police service, for support and assistance, and Members should do everything to try to encourage them and to ensure that they can. Members of ethnic minority communities, who are perhaps unaware of the subtleties and difficulties of our situation, instinctively turn to the police and other services. It is important that they get that support and that the police service be able to respond with due sensitivity, as well as alacrity.

Can the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister confirm that minority and majority viewpoints will be protected under the equality legislation? Many people are concerned that the equality legislation, as it stands, may be bogged down in the courts for months or years. Can the Ministers confirm that that will not happen?

I am not sure that I can give the Minister guidance on that. I think he is on his own.

It is the usual acoustics problem in the Chamber. I am not quite sure of the content of the Member's question. It seemed to be that Members are concerned that the equality legislation will be unworkable and bogged down in the courts. I am not sure if the Member is suggesting that, due to equality legislation, issues relating to racially motivated crime will take a long time in the courts. I do not see a connection between the legislation and measures to tackle racially motivated crime. However, if the question is about the delay of the single equality Bill, I remind the Member that that has nothing to do with criminal justice.

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8.

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister what resources have been deployed for the development of the gender strategy as proposed in the Programme for Government.

(AQO 1427/01)

Within our Department's Equality and Social Needs Division, the gender policy unit was established to promote gender equality throughout the work of the Executive. Its remit covers women, men, people of differing sexual orientation, people with or without dependents and people with differing marital status. The unit is to bring forward a gender equality strategy this year. It has a complement of four staff and has been allocated £121,000 from the departmental running costs for 2002-03. Those resources will be kept under review as the strategy is developed and implemented, and we will bid for more if need arises.

We are well into 2002 and the development of the gender strategy is behind schedule. I wonder whether the First and the Deputy First Ministers might feel it necessary to enhance the complement of staff or the time that the existing staff have to develop the gender strategy.

I am not sure why the Member thinks that it is behind schedule, as work is being undertaken. A consultation seminar has been held, involving voluntary agencies and Departments, to gather views on key issues. That has been followed up by a series of meetings with the relevant voluntary agencies. The work is under way, and I have no reason to believe that the target will not be met.

Can the First Minister further outline what steps have been taken to develop the gender strategy?

In addition to the seminar and meetings, we are currently consulting Departments on the key issues that will inform the strategy. The strategy will have relevance throughout the Administration, and, therefore, it is appropriate that we consult on it. I remain confident that the Department will meet its objective of evolving a strategy this year.

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9.

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister what action is being taken to tackle age discrimination.

(AQO 1426/01)

We are determined to tackle age discrimination, and our proposals for legislation will be available for consultation next year. We intend that the legislation will be in operation in Northern Ireland before the deadline of 2006 imposed by the European Directive.

In our consultation on the general content and scope of the single equality Bill, we asked some general questions about age discrimination. There are many complex issues to be addressed. We want to ensure that we take account of expert advice and experience elsewhere in advancing this work.

Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 requires public authorities to give due regard to the need to promote equality of opportunity between persons in nine separate categories, including persons of different ages. Under the promoting social inclusion initiative we are committed to set up a working group by December to examine the causes of social exclusion among older people and to develop a cross-departmental strategy for tackling those issues.

Will the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister convey their response about tackling age discrimination to the Minister for Employment and Learning? Her Department has withdrawn the premium rate concession to people over the age of 60 who wish to avail of learndirect. The reason given, which could be construed as an insult to those people, is that learning and priority has been accorded to those in greatest need of help who are of working age, and, therefore, contribute to the needs of the economy. The Department for Employment and Learning is saying that people over 60 years of age do not contribute to the economy.

The Member has made his question clear. Perhaps the Minister would reply.

The answer is yes. We will relay the points that the Member has raised to the Minister for Employment and Learning.

Are there any plans to extend the powers of the Equality Commission to cover age discrimination?

We have decided in principle that the powers of the Equality Commission should be extended to include age, and indeed - for Members' information - sexual orientation. I offer that as a mark of our commitment to outlawing all forms of discrimination. We will consult on that when we advance proposals for the single equality Bill.

Will the Deputy First Minister take the opportunity to make a public call to North Down Borough Council to reverse its disgraceful decision not to fund Age Concern - an organisation that helps the aged? That decision was taken on the basis that to give funding to Age Concern would be in breach of section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.

I am not aware of that issue, and I do not think that it would be appropriate for me make calls to a particular council in relation to its funding policy. However, I would be very surprised to hear that section 75 requirements could somehow preclude, or constitute a difficulty, in relation to funding groups that work on issues relating to older people.

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10.

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a statement on the British-Irish Council.

(AQO 1435/01)

At its inaugural meeting on 17 December 1999, the British-Irish Council (BIC) agreed to advance work on several initial priority areas: environment; drugs; social inclusion; the knowledge economy and transport. At the second summit meeting on 30 November 2001, two further priority areas of work were agreed - telemedicine and tourism.

Work is being done in each of the sectors through working groups of senior officials. Work flowing from those groups led to a ministerial meeting on transport on 19 December 2000; two ministerial meetings on the environment held on 2 October 2000 and 25 February 2002, and one on drugs held on 22 March 2002. Further ministerial meetings are planned. A third summit meeting, which is scheduled to take place on 14 June in Jersey, will focus on the knowledge economy, and a fourth, focusing on social inclusion, is scheduled to take place in November.

In addition to meetings on priority areas, a BIC conference addressing the digital divide took place in Jersey on 24-26 April. A report will be presented to the summit meeting in June. A conference on targeting the proceeds of the drugs trade took place in Guernsey in May. Further conferences in the BIC drugs sector are planned.

I welcome the Minister's positive statement. Will the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister take this opportunity to recognise the major benefits of the knowledge economy and encourage the strategic investment body to ensure investment in that crucial area?

The BIC is one of the new institutions created under the agreement and is being developed in parallel with other elements of the agreement. The response of all member Administrations to the programme has been positive and wholehearted. A conference for decision-makers on bridging the digital divide took place in Jersey, and provided an opportunity for representatives from Northern Ireland Departments to hear first-hand about models of good practice and experience of that issue.

The question on the strategic investment body is appropriate. It is, as the Member said, a crucial area and one that we are anxious to advance. In developing that initiative, we will want to take advantage of best practice across all elements of the BIC to maximise what we can discover.

Does the First Minister believe that the British-Irish Council will be in place in a year's time, or does he agree with his Colleague, Lord Kilclooney, that, because of the behaviour of IRA/Sinn Féin, the entire agreement could collapse before then?

Will he comment on the views expressed by his party colleague, Jeffrey Donaldson, that his party should collapse the Executive because of the involvement of Sinn Féin in international terrorism? Are those comments simply headline-grabbing statements to prevent the haemorrhage of members from his party to the DUP?

I congratulate the Member for the width of his supplementary question, but I am slightly surprised at his use of the term "headline-grabbing", as if such tactics would ever be used by any party other than his own.

We have dealt with the British-Irish Council, and I have detailed the meetings that have taken place and will take place within that context. From those comments, the Member can see the good things that are being done. We have all known from the outset about the things that could threaten the existence of this institution. Indeed, some of those threats have come from the Member and his Colleagues. Nonetheless, we endeavour to see this being implemented and hope that all parties to the agreement will carry out all their obligations under it.

Mr Sammy Wilson, who has deserted east Belfast to live in east Antrim for non-political reasons, mentioned my name. Does the First Minister recall that the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body was a failure because it met in secret and did not report to parliamentarians or to the people? Will the British-Irish Council report on its good work?

As the Member knows, following each meeting of the British-Irish Council and, indeed, of the North/South Ministerial Council, statements are made and matters put into the public domain. Consequently, there is an openness and a transparency that is highly desirable in any government institution.

We very much want to see responsibility to the British-Irish Council being maintained. We are, of course, conscious of the fact that the Assembly's existence, which the Member worked very hard to achieve, is one of the things that the people of Northern Ireland regard as a very significant benefit.

Those who sit in the corner and carp cannot point to any similar achievement of their own.

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11.

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a statement on the small employers' threshold in disability discrimination law.

(AQO 1447/01)

The Deputy First Minister: The EU Framework Directive requires the removal by December 2006 of the existing exemption from the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 for employers with fewer than 15 employees. Consultation on the removal of the threshold and the timescale for doing so will be carried out later this year in Northern Ireland. We propose to implement the removal ahead of the required deadline of 2006 as set by the EU.

Ms Lewsley:

This action compensates for many people's disappointment that the single equality Bill was not introduced. Has a target date been set for the implementation of the legislation?

The Executive recognise the need to extend protection to all disabled employees, so we intend to remove the threshold in advance of the EU's 2006 deadline. Our target date is January 2004, and consultation will be carried out later in 2002.

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12.

asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister what plans there are for the future of (a) the Northern Ireland Economic Council; and (b) the Northern Ireland Economic Research Centre.

(AQO 1433/01)

After a review of the Northern Ireland Economic Council (NIEC) and the provision of independent economic advice and research, the Executive agreed on 17 May that they should seek to improve the supply of economic advice by setting up a new research body combining the roles of the NIEC and the Northern Ireland Economic Research Centre (NIERC). Consultation has commenced with the NIEC, the NIERC, the Committee of the Centre, the Committee for Finance and Personnel and the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, and it will continue until 19 June 2002.

Does the First Minister accept that it is important that the Government continue to have an independent mechanism of scrutiny and overview when they are carrying out economic policy planning and assessment? Does he agree that independent assessment is important, particularly as we unpick many decades of unfettered Civil Service power in the North? Why did considerable time elapse before the Executive's review of the matter in May?

It is right that those important matters should be considered carefully and deliberately. The Executive have agreed to set up a new research body, and consultation will take place. I assure Mr Attwood that a key objective is to ensure that the Administration have genuinely independent advice of the best quality. We need people who can consider the situation objectively, without being responsible for the decisions, matters and policies on which they advise, so that they are not influenced in their opinion. We appreciate that open and independent advice lies at the heart of good policy decision-making in the Executive. It is our urgent desire to receive such advice, which is partly why we took time to pursue the matter. The Executive will be able to be certain that the advice that they receive is genuinely independent.

I do not see Mr McMenamin in his place.

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14.

asked the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister whether there are any plans to visit his constituency.

(AQO 1421/01)

We have no plans to make a joint visit to the East Londonderry constituency. However, we visited the area on two occasions recently. On 12 April we officially opened the new Causeway Hospital and, more recently, we were there to see riders and spectators at a practice session for the North West 200.

Is the First Minister aware of the deep concern in my constituency of East Londonderry, and in other constituencies, following the revelation of the Republican movement's involvement in Colombia in last night's Channel 4 programme 'Dispatches: The Colombian Connection'? Does he agree that its involvement in South America calls into question its commitment to peace and democracy?

Order. Geography was never my strongest point, but the last time that I looked at a map, I did not notice that Mr McClarty's constituency extended to Colombia. I have heard it suggested here that he may intend to go there on holiday, but, given the experiences of some other tourists there, it might not be best advised for him to do so.

Culture, Arts and Leisure

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Question 7, standing in the name of Mr Byrne, has been transferred to the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, and question 8, standing in the name of Mr Jim Wilson, has been withdrawn and will receive a written answer.

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1.

asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, in the light of his objective to increase recorded levels of active participation in sporting activities, to outline (a) the time-limited targets set in pursuance of this objective; and (b) the measures being put in place to ensure that those targets are achieved.

(AQO 1453/01)

The target, including time limits set for increasing recorded levels of active participation in sporting activities, is 49% by the end of 2002-03, against a baseline of 48% for 2000-01. The proposed actions to achieve that target are increasing the number of sporting opportunities in schools, communities and the sporting network; increasing the number of volunteers equipped to develop the participation of young people in sport and trained to encourage lifelong participation; establishing the Northern Ireland Network Centre of the UK Sports Institute to increase opportunities in Northern Ireland; identifying and supporting talented performers in Northern Ireland; and raising the standard of coaching for high-level performers.

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. The Minister referred to an increase of 1% a year. The targets are reasonable, but, given the health of some sectors of the community, perhaps greater encouragement to participate in sport should be given by targeting funding at organisations, such as schools or further education colleges, where more impact could be made. If the targets are to be met and surpassed, the number of people who participate actively in sport must be increased.

This is the first year that the Department has set targets and, therefore, it has inadequate data with which to work. When setting targets, the Department must take heed of the level of available resources. Achievable targets are important, and they will be reviewed annually. I do not disagree with the tone of Mr McHugh's remarks: there are barriers to participation in sport. Sport is beneficial on several levels. A recent report from Queen's University claims that medical costs for those people who engage in physical activity are 30% lower than for those people who lead a more sedentary lifestyle. Participation in sport lowers heart disease and provides many other health benefits. Therefore, in addition to the pleasure of taking part in sport, there are financial and economic reasons for doing so.

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