Northern Ireland Assembly
Monday 20 May 2002
Contents
Visit of Her Majesty The Queen
Open-Ended Investment Companies Bill: First Stage
Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill: Second Stage
Belfast Harbour Order (Northern Ireland) 2002
Warrenpoint Harbour Authority Order (Northern Ireland) 2002
Warrenpoint Harbour Authority Order (Northern Ireland) 2002
Londonderry Harbour Order (Northern Ireland) 2002
Social Security Statutory Rules Subject to Confirmatory Resolution
Committee for Employment and Learning: Change of Membership
Committee for Education: Change of Membership
Report by the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development
The Assembly met at noon (Mr Speaker in the Chair). Members observed two minutes’ silence.
Visit of Her Majesty The QueenMr J Wilson: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Criticism has recently been levelled at the Assembly concerning the facilities that were made available to the media during Her Majesty The Queen’s visit to Parliament Buildings last week. Was that criticism justified? Mr Speaker: I have noticed criticism in the press, and I have received correspondence from Ulster Television (UTV) about the matter. I am writing to request an apology from UTV for some of the statements that were made. I am not surprised that UTV were embarrassed by the poor quality of the coverage of the event, especially since they were providing it not only for their own viewers but for those of other broadcasting organisations and, indeed, the Assembly. To obviate their embarrassment, they have sought to blame Assembly staff and have made several quite untrue claims. They claim that it was to do with security arrangements, but it was not. Our staff gave full assistance as to the best place to take shots and discussed where they might have difficulties. They took their own advice, and discovered too late that they were mistaken. The only thing that they requested but did not receive was the right to place a camera in the middle of the floor of the Great Hall, where Her Majesty and all would have had to parade around it. Assembly staff thought that that was inappropriate. However, UTV staff were permitted to place a camera on a riser at the back of the Great Hall, and they pronounced themselves totally satisfied with all the arrangements — until they saw the outcome. At that stage they sought to make a complaint, and to put blame on the Assembly staff who had co-operated fully with them. That was not the only blunder on the part of the press. For example, a member of broadcasting staff was speaking so loudly upstairs in the Gallery during one of the speeches that it was thought initially that an intruder was trying to disrupt the proceedings. Our own contracted staff have provided very competent and helpful broadcasting for almost four years. They are familiar with how to conduct things, and an obvious solution for future circumstances would be to have our own staff provide a pooled feed that the broadcasters could then take. The stills photographer, who was offered the same facilities, managed to take excellent photographs that have been used widely and appreciated widely. I trust that that addresses the Member’s concern. Mr P Robinson: On a further point of order, Mr Speaker. Members were notified of the intention to carry out searches before Her Majesty’s visit — as one would expect. Many Members made the necessary arrangements for desks, filing cabinets and rooms to be left open. However, there is an indication that not everyone did so. Can you investigate whether, in cases where people left desks, filing cabinets or rooms locked, they were penetrated in all cases, and can you report to the Assembly Commission on that? Mr Speaker: I have made initial enquiries on that issue. A few desks and filing cabinets were not opened. The security forces were entirely satisfied that these were well away from any areas where they had any concerns. In all the cases concerned, Members had not been around for some time, and that was why some desks and filing cabinets were not left open. I cannot comment more fully on it, save to say that beforehand, and subsequently when I checked, I was advised that the security services were wholly happy with the substantial co-operation that they received from all sides in the Assembly. As the Member has raised the matter, I will enquire further about it. Mr Morrow: Further to the earlier point of order, Mr Speaker. You said that you are entering into correspondence with UTV. Is it your intention to report to the Assembly on that correspondence? Mr Speaker: That would not normally be how I would proceed. It would generally be a matter for the Commission. If Members raise questions, I try to be helpful, but I am simply responding to the question raised. I received a letter from UTV that contained several scurrilous suggestions, and I have no option but to reply to it. The terms in which I will reply are the terms in which I have responded to the point of order this morning. I will draw the matter to the attention of the Commission, which is the responsible body. Mr Davis: On a further point of order, Mr Speaker. We should thank those members of the Assembly staff and Members’ staff who stayed behind for some time to help with the security search. Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Member for raising that matter. The Assembly staff, and the staff of all the parties, were extremely co-operative, and some people put themselves out substantially both before, during and after the visit. It would also be fair for the Assembly to record its appreciation of the substantial efforts made by Assembly staff to ensure that an important event passed in what I understand was described as "clockwork order" by some commentators who viewed it. Suspension of Standing OrdersResolved (with cross-community support): That this Assembly suspends Standing Order 10(2) and Standing Order 10(6) for Monday 20 May 2002. — [The Minister for Regional Development (Mr P Robinson).] Harland & Wolff Lands IssueMr Speaker: I have received notice from the Minister for Regional Development that he wishes to make a statement on the Harland & Wolff lands issue. The Minister for Regional Development (Mr P Robinson): I am grateful for the opportunity to make a statement to the Assembly on my decision regarding the Harland & Wolff lands issue. Last week, in reply to a question for written answer tabled by Mr Peter Weir, I said that I expected to be in a position soon to respond to the Belfast Harbour Commissioners’ application to my Department for approval to enter into an agreement with Titanic Quarter Ltd for the development of some 80 acres of land in the harbour estate that is no longer required for shipbuilding purposes. Sir David Fell, chairman of Harland & Wolff, first briefed Sir Reg Empey and me on 25 February 2002 about the company’s difficulties and advanced the proposal that it might conclude a land deal with the Belfast Harbour Commissioners — the company’s landlord — aimed at financing a new business plan. From the outset, my principal concern has been to safeguard the public interest. As Minister for Regional Development, I was also keen to ensure that those lands identified by the company as being no longer needed for shipbuilding were developed in the best interests of Northern Ireland. Under the terms of the memorandum of understanding between the Belfast Harbour Commissioners and my Department, the commissioners are required to consult with my Department and seek its approval for any proposed disposal or change of use of any harbour lands. The Belfast Harbour Commissioners’ proposal to my Department envisaged a partnership with Titanic Quarter Ltd, a sister company of Harland & Wolff Heavy Industries Ltd, for the purpose of development of the site. As part of that arrangement, it was envisaged that the covenants in the existing lease, which restricted use of the land to shipbuilding, ship repair and engineering, would be removed to facilitate the commercial development of the site. On the back of that arrangement, it was proposed that Harland & Wolff’s parent company, Fred Olsen Energy, would invest £15 million in Harland & Wolff Heavy Industries Ltd, which was based on 50% of the market value of the site. That cash injection is intended to finance the company’s new business plan. My Department’s consideration of the proposal has entailed careful examination of several matters including the market value of the lands involved, the legal documentation relating to the proposed agreement and any state aid implications. Having completed my examination of the proposal put to my Department under the terms of the memorandum of understanding with Belfast Harbour Commissioners, I am able to announce to the Assembly that I have decided to approve the proposal. I have several reasons to believe that my decision is in the best interests of Northern Ireland plc. It will facilitate the regeneration of a substantial area of the harbour estate, a prime site close to the city centre, which, if left undeveloped, would rapidly become an eyesore. Development of the land offers fresh job opportunities. Both Harland & Wolff and the Belfast Harbour Commissioners accept that the site lends itself to development, at least in part, for light industrial use. After protracted negotiations, the public interest represented by the Belfast Harbour Commissioners will share capital costs and revenue benefits fifty-fifty. That is the same share for the Harland & Wolff interest, on a lease that expires in 2114, as it is for the Titanic Quarter deal, the lease for which expires in 2019. Taken together with the adjoining Titanic Quarter site and the new science park, the lands promise to become a dynamic new development area of more than 180 acres. Finally, both the Belfast Harbour Commissioners and Titanic Quarter Ltd have undertaken to bear the on-site infrastructure costs and their share of the external infrastructure costs of the development of the site. 12.15 pm Those reasons alone mean that it is a strong deal that would, on a stand-alone basis, merit approval. There are also additional benefits of which I am aware, but which I could not allow to colour my judgement. They relate more to the responsibilities of Sir Reg Empey, as Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, with whom I have worked closely throughout the process. Those are: Harland & Wolff will be given the opportunity to finance and implement its new business plan, and so ensure the survival of shipbuilding operations in Belfast for the immediate future; it will retain jobs and also allow the two roll-on roll-off vessels under construction to be completed; it will give the company the opportunity to improve the yard’s prospects in the longer term by making it more compact and efficient; and it will allow the company to develop new market opportunities in the construction of a renewables plant. In considering those matters, Sir Reg Empey and I acknowledged that no public moneys would be involved in implementing the proposed development agreement or in financing Harland & Wolff’s new business plan. Fred Olsen Energy will be required to bear the commercial risk involved with regard to the latter. Sir Reg Empey and I consulted widely on those issues, because we were keen to secure the maximum political engagement and public support. The consultation has extended to include Belfast City Council, the Regional Development Committee, the Enterprise, Trade and Investment Committee, the Department for Employment and Learning, the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, the Executive Committee and the trade unions. The process has worked well, and it has demonstrated openness, transparency and public accountability. It has also proved to be a good test of the memorandum of understanding with the Belfast Harbour Commissioners. The public interest will be safeguarded in various ways in implementing the decision. The injection of funds into Harland & Wolff Heavy Industries Ltd will be monitored by a committee of officials drawn from the Department for Regional Development, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and the Department of Finance and Personnel. The committee will also monitor the implementation of the company’s business plan and will be supported by PricewaterhouseCoopers. The Department for Regional Development will be involved in the master-planning process, and the development proposals which emerge from that will be the subject of the full rigour of the statutory planning process. I commend those arrangements to the House and to the Northern Ireland public. The Chairperson of the Committee for Regional Development (Mr A Maginness): The Regional Development Committee has monitored this situation for some time, and it is generally supportive of the Minister’s statement. Some members of the Committee are rather doubtful about the long-term viability of the restructured company, but we wish it well. However, we are concerned about the protection of the public interest with regard to the surplus lands that will result from the restructuring of Harland & Wolff. The Regional Development Committee believes strongly that the lands are public assets and should be developed in the public interest. I hope that the plan that is being proposed today will protect the public interest. I note that the development costs will be shared fifty-fifty between the Belfast Harbour Commissioners and Fred Olsen Energy. The Committee believes that that is important. Will the Minister reassure the House that no public funding will go into the development of these lands and that the Belfast Harbour Commissioners and Fred Olsen Energy will develop them jointly? Mr P Robinson: I thank the Committee for the role that it played in examining the many issues involved. The Committee was able to profile the issues in a way that illuminated public understanding of this complex case. Alban Maginness is correct that there is no assurance of a long-term future for Harland & Wolff on the basis of the injection of funds as a consequence of the land deal. Members hope that it will be the case. Nonetheless, the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment can say that only the injection of funds into the company will make it theoretically possible to meet its business plan. The success of the business plan depends entirely on whether the company can secure orders. That is why I have emphasised that we have examined this issue on a stand-alone basis, and we have concluded that it makes sense. Mr Maginness is correct in saying that the key issue has been the protection of the public interest, and that has been done in several ways. Harland & Wolff, through its Titanic Quarter deal, will be a partner with the Belfast Harbour Commissioners, who have considerable experience of development. That secures the public end of the arrangement in an accountable way. I hope that, later today, there will be approval for new harbour Orders that will increase the public accountability of the Belfast Harbour Commissioners. The moneys that will meet the requirements of Harland & Wolff’s business plan come from the injection of funds into Harland & Wolff Heavy Industries Ltd by Fred Olsen Energy as a result of the land deal, and also from a further loan from Fred Olsen, because there was a gap that had to be filled. The only public funds involved relate to the Department for Employment and Learning, which is deferring a loan — although not writing it off — so that it meets the business plan requirements. It is for the Department for Employment and Learning to make any statement on that. It seems to be a common-sense decision, because if the Department did not agree to that — and the deal fell as a result — it would not have had the money anyway, because it is an unsecured loan. Dr Adamson: I declare an interest as a Belfast City Council appointee to the Greater East Belfast Partnership Board, which has an interest in this issue, and also as chairman of the community enterprise scheme, Heirskip Village. I commend the Minister on his work and his report, and also Sir Reg Empey. Does the Minister think that there is concern in the local community that this is part of an eventual withdrawal of Harland & Wolff from the site? Methinks there may be Vikings about. Can he reassure us by elaborating on the monitoring board that will be established? (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr McClelland] in the Chair) Mr P Robinson: I am grateful to my Colleague from East Belfast for raising declarations of interest, as it gives me the opportunity to say that I do not have an interest, although the Register of Members’ Interests might suggest otherwise. Although my interest was minimal, I donated it to a local charity — of which the Member would approve — before decisions were made on the matter. I am not sure that any Vikings gave orders to inject funds into Northern Ireland companies. Those who question Fred Olsen’s motives must recognise that, if he or any of his companies were interested only in asset-stripping, it is unlikely that they would have reinvested the moneys that were secured from that in Harland & Wolff Heavy Industries Ltd. I am aware of the hon Gentleman’s interest in the Greater East Belfast Partnership Board. I hope that we can proceed with the issue relating to the board and the lands known as the Esso lands. I am happy to work with the Member and his Colleague, the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, to secure the matter. Although people may question the motives, the proposals make sense as they stand. I too have concerns about the future of shipbuilding in Northen Ireland. However, the deal offers shipbuilding a chance, without which it has no future. The Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mr Neeson): The Enterprise, Trade and Investment Committee has been considering this matter for some time, and before devolution the Assembly established an Ad Hoc Committee to deal with the harbour lands. Modern shipbuilding does not require the huge tracts of land that were needed in the last century. Does the Minister agree that the lands are not only a Belfast city asset but a Northern Ireland asset and should be treated as such? What input will his Department and other Departments have in drawing up the brief that will lead to the development plan for this site and for the Titanic Quarter? I welcome the fact that the Belfast Harbour Commissioners and Harland & Wolff will provide the necessary infrastructure. Mr P Robinson: I remember the days of the Ad Hoc Committee and its work. The question enables me to return to the question that Dr Adamson asked about the monitoring committee, to which I did not respond. The committee will comprise representatives from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, the Department of Finance and Personnel and the Department for Regional Development, which have been involved in the project and which will continue to have an interest in the development of the land and in monitoring the injection of funds and subsequent matters. The Member for East Antrim, Mr Neeson, is right to emphasise the fact that this is not solely an east Belfast, in its narrowest focus, or a Belfast issue. The development of the site has implications for the whole of Northern Ireland. It is one of the most attractive development sites in the Province, particularly because of its proximity to Belfast city centre. It must, therefore, be tackled strategically and carefully. I asked the official in charge of regional planning to leave all his other work aside and concentrate on the preparation of a draft plan to show how the site and the Titanic Quarter might be developed. 12.30 pm It is important that they are developed as one site. A reputable Northern Ireland company is representing Fred Olsen Energy, and it is working on development proposals. That company has agreed to work in a body with the Department for Regional Development, and the work will be fed through to the monitoring group. However, the Planning Service will always have the final say, and proposals will be subject to all of its usual rigours. Therefore, there is a series of "protections" as regards how the site is developed — not least of which is the fact that the partnership between private and public interests is fifty-fifty — which should help to secure public confidence. The public interest will be represented by the Belfast Harbour Commissioners, which, under their memorandum of understanding, have worked closely with my Department throughout the process. I expect that to continue through to the end of the process because there is a good relationship between the Department and Belfast Harbour Commissioners. Mr McNamee: I welcome the positive aspects of the Minister’s statement — the positive effect that the deal will have on employment at Harland & Wolff in the short term and the opportunity it provides for the company to improve its prospects. The deal, however, involves £15 million being invested in Harland & Wolff Heavy Industries Ltd, and the Minister has said that there is no guarantee that the business plan will be successful in the long term. The House is aware of competition in the shipbuilding industry that Harland & Wolff faces from Asian countries. Will the Minister elaborate on the business plan and explain why a decision has been taken to invest £15 million in it? Will he state how confident he is about the possible success of the plan? Mr P Robinson: It would be inappropriate for me to comment on the business plan. That is a Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment issue, and it says that the figures add up. The future of the company will depend on its ability to secure work on the open market. That will be the test. The Assembly would want to concentrate on why investment should be made if public money were being put into the company. In this case, however, the question must be put to Fred Olsen Energy. It is making the investment, and I welcome that. The alternative is for Fred Olsen Energy to put the money in its back pocket. I would much rather see it being invested in a Northern Ireland company and giving it a chance to survive. The Department recognises that there is much competition from the Pacific basin. Harland & Wolff must look to contracts that have added value. However, the company will become more competitive by reducing its overheads and contracting the site. It will increase its ability to compete by bringing in modules for areas of activity that it claims are more costly. It will have a better chance if it looks to the niche market that is not covered by Pacific basin countries. However, the odds are no higher than that, and this is a matter for the company. I know that the House will wish the company well in implementing its business plan. The Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for Regional Development (Mr McFarland): Does the Minister agree that the existence of Ministers, Committees and the Assembly was vital to the construction of the plan and that had Harland & Wolff’s problems occurred before devolution the outcome in relation to protecting the public interest might have been different? Mr P Robinson: As someone who believes in devolution, I find it easy to answer the Member’s question. I have always believed that people who have an intimate knowledge of the issues will make better decisions that those who are not directly accountable to the Northern Ireland people. It is important that the process has been transparent, as it has been the subject of much criticism in the past. The public are aware of the issues involved in a way that they were not before. The memorandum of understanding agreed between the Belfast Harbour Commissioners and my Department has worked well and, when it is enshrined in the new harbour Orders, will work well in future. Even if no benefits were to be gained by Harland & Wolff Heavy Industries Ltd, the arrangement would still be in the interests of Northern Ireland plc. It makes sense to develop the site. As well as being a Minister, I also represent East Belfast. If no agreement on the land had been reached, I could not contemplate the blight and the loss of potential that would result from leaving the site, so close to Belfast city centre, derelict and overgrown with weeds. All the employment potential would be lost not only for East Belfast, but for the wider area. Mr Byrne: The issue has been around for several years, and the Minister’s definitive statement is to be welcomed. Is £15 million a true reflection of the market value of the 80 acres of land that is to be released for development? Will more land be released for development in future? Is the Minister satisfied that there will be a proper mix of development use? Only light industrial use has been mentioned. Mr P Robinson: The £15 million is gauged to be only half the value of the land because only half the land belongs to Fred Olsen companies; the other half is held in the public interest by the Belfast Harbour Commissioners. I know from working as an estate agent in the early part of my adult life that the value of any property is only worth what a willing purchaser will pay on the open market. Therefore, one can never know the true value of a property until it is sold. Reputable companies conducted four valuations of the land. The lowest and highest valuations were disregarded, and an average of the remaining two was taken. The Department had the average considered by the Valuation and Lands Agency, which agreed that the average was within its appropriate tolerance level. The experts consider the figure to be reasonable. Of course, as soon as money is invested to improve the infrastructure of the area, the development potential will increase. However, the developers will have to speculate to accumulate on that. The Member also raised the issue of more land being released for development. In many ways, I hope that no more land is released because that will inevitably mean that Harland & Wolff’s business plan has failed. We would have to reconsider the issue if that happened. Taken together with the original Titanic Quarter land, the development is sizeable and will probably take 10 to 15 years to fully evolve. The land will be developed for mixed use. Ultimately, its use will be a matter for the Department of the Environment’s Planning Service. However, the land stretches from the Odyssey to what will be the new, contracted Harland & Wolff site, and it would seem natural to soften the land’s use as it draws closer to the Odyssey. The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment highlighted his priority that the land be used for light industry, and he and I have pressed for such a use of a significant portion of the land. However, it will be a mixed-use development. Open-Ended Investment Companies Bill:
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