I thank the Member for his expression of an expectation of continued economic growth. I trust that all that we will do will support in positive ways the economic growth and development that has been happening in Northern Ireland recently. On flexibility, close examination of the timetable shows that it is a fairly tight one, but it is comprehensive, and it is intended to alert Members to key stages and developments in the whole process through to the Christmas recess. We will present and vote on our Budget in mid-December. Any flexibility will be limited.

We are presenting the timetable much earlier than was possible for my predecessor. We are doing so to put Members on notice about the kind of commitment that we want to see from Committees and the work that they can, and should, become involved in with the Departments and the Committee for Finance and Personnel - and, through that Committee, the Department of Finance and Personnel. The process is taking place in a critical year as far as our spending planning is concerned.

Like other Members, I congratulate you on your elevation, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I wish you well in your new position. I would also like to thank the Minister for his comprehensive statement on the Budget timetable for 2002. Does he agree that we are attempting a mission impossible, given that we are in an important year in budgetary terms? We are expecting the spending review results but will not have them until July. The Minister said that the Executive want to establish the firmest possible three-year planning position.

As Dr Birnie said, we will not have the results of the needs and effectiveness evaluations until May. When will the Finance and Personnel Committee know the outcome of the consideration that the Executive have been giving to the Barnett formula and its implications for rates, water and sewerage? Other reviews are ongoing, and they should all be dovetailed into the exercise.

What provision of staff and time does the Minister intend to make to enable Committees to meet, as per his schedule, during the summer recess? If they are not meeting during that time, I fail to understand when and how the work will be done. Am I right that it is anticipated that during July and August the Committee for Finance and Personnel will be discussing the Executive position report, which we do not yet have? It will also be receiving preliminary responses from other Committees on the Executive position reports, which the other Committees have not yet seen, and which, therefore, will have to come during July and August. This will all have to be dovetailed into the outcome of the spending review 2002, which is coming in July.

I said that it was a mission impossible. If a job is worth doing, it is worth doing well. The necessary time needs to be allocated to the respective Committees to enable them to perform the scrutiny role. It strikes me that scrutiny is being stretched to breaking point yet again.

If it is a mission impossible, then I am not sure what the Member and I are doing here. Nonetheless, it is our responsibility to turn what he describes as a mission impossible into a mission possible. We have the means, and we will make sure that we have as much time as possible. However, I cannot stretch the days and months, desirable as that may be.

I will speak to the Finance and Personnel Committee soon about our approach to the Barnett formula and outline what the Executive have determined in that respect. We all know that the final reports on the needs and effectiveness evaluations will not be available until May, and I want to emphasise that Committees can get involved with their Departments in matters related to the needs and effectiveness exercise and, indeed, on all other matters, particularly strategic planning. In recent weeks I have been urging Committees to begin the process of engagement; perhaps they already have. I am not privy to the details of every Committee's engagement with its relevant Department. Nonetheless, I am sure that Members appreciate the need for that to be under way.

We shall be making a vigorous approach to the Treasury to convince it of the scale of our needs and the deficits in investment in various forms of infrastructure, including water and sewerage. We shall address our revenue streams with regard to their effectiveness in meeting some of those needs. We shall adopt a vigorous approach, and I assure Mr Close that time will be made available - certainly on my part - to engage with Committees. If Committees face particular difficulties, they should itemise them and note the support they need to engage meaningfully in this exercise. As Minister of Finance and Personnel, the amount of time that I will have for vacations over the summer will not be great. However, if my officials and I are to be involved, I am sure that Committees will make a considerable investment in assisting us through what will be a challenging period to ensure that we make available spending resources commensurate with our needs.

Members will have noted that a gremlin has come with me to the Speaker's Chair and has visited our clocks. We shall do our best to continue without the technology.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I welcome you to your new position. It is not a simple task, as you will have noticed this morning.

I welcome the Minister's statement and the issues that it covered. Scrutiny is of particular importance to the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development, as is the need to cover all these issues due to their financial implications.

I note the significance of areas such as health, education and unemployment in the six needs and effectiveness evaluations. What relevance will be given to the objectives and actions necessary for the implementation of initiatives such as the vision report in the years ahead?

The fact that a number of these key issues have been identified in the report indicates that the Executive place a significant emphasis upon them. My statement today shows that I share that approach. The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development is in the process of developing action plans associated with the vision report. The associated costings will be brought to the Executive in due course and given considerable attention. A first presentation on some of the key issues in the vision report was given at the last Executive meeting. However, we await the costings associated with the action plans that the Minister intends to formulate as a result of that important piece of work. Our approach to the spending plans for the coming years will take that into consideration.

Without stepping into my Colleague's shoes, allow me to say that it is an important report, eagerly awaited by the farming and rural community. The report has considerable relevance for future planning.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I also congratulate you on your new position and hope that you have a long and happy time in it.

I am alarmed at the picture painted by the Minister of how the Government plan their finances. In regard to proper planning, it is ridiculous that our Departments will know the details of their spending allocations only in December. I appreciate the Minister's efforts to minimise these difficulties.

The Department of Agriculture and Rural Development has come through a difficult time, with efforts being made to eliminate diseases such as BSE, brucellosis and botulism. The efforts to eliminate these diseases through R&D, especially in animals, need to be 100%, because we are an exporting country. Will the Minister assure us that his Department will do everything it can to assist the R&D focused on these problems?

I assure the Member that the programme, as set out, is intended to provide maximum opportunity for Members to become involved with us in the whole planning process, both in the Assembly and through their Committees. The Chancellor's spending review will not be completed until mid-July. Therefore, we cannot plan our Budget in any detail until then. However, a great deal of preparatory work can be undertaken. The Member can be assured that the Executive and my Department are conscious of the needs of agriculture and rural development. As far as possible, resources will be made available to deal with the problems the Member identified in relation to animal disease control and elimination.

I welcome you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I wish you all the best.

The Minister has outlined a timetable for the 2002 spending review. As has been said already, the outcome of that review will be known around mid-July. Can the Minister confirm that the Barnett formula will be subjected to rigorous challenge as part of his efforts to secure a positive outcome for Northern Ireland in the spending review?

As I attempted to say in my statement, I assure the Member and the House that a close and rigorous examination of the Barnett formula is already under way. It is the responsibility of the Executive, and of the Department of Finance and Personnel in particular, to ensure that we carry out a detailed analysis of the resource implications of the working of Barnett; to challenge any perceived weaknesses that can be identified in the manner of Barnett's operation in our regard; to build up our case, especially that which is based on our assessment of needs; and, allied with that assessment, to evaluate the effectiveness with which our resourses are expended.

That will ensure that we have satisfied ourselves initially that we have not ignored any aspect of the way in which the resources that are allocated under Barnett are made available. It will also ensure that we can answer any questions put to us by the Treasury, advance strongly our case for essential resources for the delivery of services and infrastructure and make good the deficits that currently exist in those services.

North/South Ministerial Council:
Special EU Programmes

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Mr Deputy Speaker:

I have received notice from the Minister of Finance and Personnel that he wishes to make a statement on the North/South Ministerial Council sectoral meeting on special EU programmes held on 20 February 2002 in Ballymena.

The Minster of Finance and Personnel (Dr Farren): Before I make my statement on the Council meeting, I wish to correct an omission from the opening of my previous statement. I wish to join other Members in welcoming you, Mr Deputy Speaker, to the Chair, and I extend to you my good wishes on your new position.

The sixth meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council in sectoral format on special EU programmes was held in Ballymena on Wednesday 20 February 2002. Mr Dermot Nesbitt and I attended that meeting, and this report has been approved by Mr Nesbitt and is made also on his behalf. Mr Charlie McCreevy TD, Minister for Finance, represented the Irish Government. This meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council in this sector was my first as Minister of Finance and Personnel. I was pleased to host the meeting in Ballymena. A substantial range of business was covered at the meeting, reflecting the statutory and corporate responsibilities of the Special EU Programmes Body.

The chief executive of the body gave an oral report to the Council on the developments since the last meeting in this sector on 30 October 2001. The report covered a range of topics, including the progress made in implementing the Peace II and INTERREG III programmes, and the LEADER+, URBAN II and EQUAL community initiatives, all of which have an important impact on local communities and help to promote social inclusion and cross-border co-operation. The chief executive advised that the closure of the Peace I and INTERREG II programmes was progressing well and that the final reports for both programmes would be forwarded to the Finance Departments for submission to the European Commission by the required date of June 2002. The chief executive also advised the Council of the progress made on several corporate issues, including the final stages of the recruitment process for permanent staff and relocation of the headquarters to new premises in Belfast.

The Council emphasised the importance of the work of the body in implementing the new programmes, welcomed the progress made since the last meeting on several important issues, such as developing the network of channels through which European Union funds support individual projects, and highlighted the importance of those projects in building bridges of peace and reconciliation across communities and maximising the social and economic benefits on the island, especially in border areas.

In accordance with the statutory requirements of the North/South Co-operation (Implementation Bodies) (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, the Special EU Programmes Body submitted to the Council the annual report and accounts for the period ending 31 December 2000. These were the first annual report and accounts produced by the body and covered the 13-month period from December 1999 to December 2000. The Comptrollers and Auditors General in the North and in the South have audited the accounts. I am pleased to report that they were certified without qualification. The Council approved the annual report and accounts and agreed to have them laid before the Assembly and both Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Council considered and approved the corporate plan for the body for 2002-04 and the business plan for 2002. It was the second corporate plan that had been submitted to the Council since the establishment of the body, the first having been approved by the North/South Ministerial Council at the sectoral meeting in this format in November 2000. The corporate plan detailed the strategic objectives for the body with regard to each of its functional areas. The Council was advised that it was the intention of the chief executive to revise the corporate plan once the full senior management team was in place, and that the revised plan would be presented to the Council later in the year. The Council was advised of the substantial progress made by the body in recruiting a full complement of permanent staff. Of the 31 posts approved by the North/South Ministerial Council, 23 have already been filled with permanent appointees. It is expected that the remaining vacancies will be filled by May 2002.

The Council considered a paper prepared by the Special EU Programmes Body that detailed the progress that had been made in the implementation of the Peace II programme. The Council noted that all 26 local strategy partnerships in Northern Ireland had been set up and formally approved by the body. Of those, six have had their local strategies and action plans approved by the body. The Council was also advised that the Executive had approved allocations to the local strategy partnerships, and that interim contract negotiations between the programmes body and the local strategy partnerships had begun.

The Council was then told of the progress that has been made in setting up the county council-led task forces in the border region. The chief executive advised the Council of progress made in closing the gap funding arrangements. He indicated that an expected 70% of all gap-funded projects will be assessed under full applications by the end of March. The Council noted the progress and asked if the body would consider a possible presentation, to include examples of projects funded under the programme, to the Council at its next sectoral meeting in this format.

The Council considered a report by the EU Special Programmes Body on the progress made on the INTERREG IIIA operational programme and was pleased to note that the final structure of the programme had been agreed with the Commission at the end of December and that formal approval of the INTERREG III programme is expected shortly.

The Council was advised that the body was assisting the development of the INTERREG III partnerships. It welcomed the imminent approval of the programme and the progress made to date and stressed the urgency of having the programme operational as quickly as possible.

The final paper considered by the Council was a progress report on work under the common chapter. In line with the recommendations of the 'Common Chapter Working Group Report', which was adopted by the Council at the EU sectoral meeting in October 2001, a common chapter joint steering group has been set up to provide a link between central departments, finance departments and the Special EU Programmes Body, North and South.

The Council was advised that the joint steering group has met twice and has agreed terms of reference that will enable the Special EU Programmes Body to discharge its responsibilities under the common chapter. The Council was also told that the establishment of a common chapter working group under the community support frameworks, North and South, has been agreed. The chief executive will prepare a paper detailing the group's structure, membership and terms of reference for consideration by members of the monitoring committees. The Council asked for regular reports so that it can continually review progress on implementing the common chapter.

It was agreed that the Council will meet again in sectoral format in Northern Ireland in May or June. The venue for the meeting has yet to be confirmed. The text of a joint communiqué was agreed and was issued following the meeting. A copy has been placed in the Assembly Library.

The Minister said that the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland has audited the accounts for December 1999 to December 2000 and certified them without qualification. That is good news. When will the accounts for subsequent years be released so that we can be confident that subsequent spending was also in order?

I declare an interest as a member of the Carrickfergus local strategy partnership. The Minister said that six of the local strategy partnerships' action plans have been approved. Have all local strategic partnerships submitted their interim local strategies and action plans for consideration?

Mr Deputy Speaker, was there a question about strategy plans, or was the Member just saying that he had noted the plans?

Will you repeat the question, Mr Beggs?

Can the Minister confirm if all local strategic partnerships have submitted their interim local strategic plans and actions plans for consideration? Six have been formally approved. Have all partnerships submitted their plans?

I cannot say if all local strategic partnerships have submitted their plans at this time.

Those indicated in my statement have been submitted, and others are in the course of submission. I was present at meetings in Dungannon and in Enniskillen on 28 February at which the plans for local strategy partnerships were handed over to the chief executive. That information can be made available to the Member as soon as possible. However, I expect all plans to be lodged in the near future.

The accounts for last year should be lodged by the autumn of this year.

I welcome the Minister's statement, particularly the comprehensive activities covered by the Special EU Programmes Body. Will he outline the terms of reference for the working group on the common chapter, and will he tell the House when further progress can be expected on a possible programme of work?

The common chapter is contained in the structural funds planned for Northern Ireland and Ireland's National Development Plan 2000-06. It sets out a strategic framework for North/South and east-west co-operation across a broad range of sectors and activities. The common chapter provides scope for cross-border co-operation along the border corridor between Northern Ireland and the border counties of Ireland, North and South in the island of Ireland, and east-west between the island of Ireland, Great Britain and Europe and internationally.

The North/South Ministerial Council provides a strategic focus and basis for the implementation of the common chapter, and the Special EU Programmes Body (SEUPB) has a statutory responsibility for monitoring and promoting that. To clarify how that would be carried out the North/ South Ministerial Council established a common chapter working group. The group provided recommendations covering the respective roles of the North/South Ministerial Council, the SEUPB and the structural funds monitoring committees.

Progress has been made on co-ordination arrangements, and I am pleased to report that it was agreed at a meeting of the Northern Ireland community structural funds monitoring committee on 6 February, which I chair, that the chief executive of the SEUPB, as a member of the structural funds committees North and South, will, in consultation with monitoring committee members, prepare proposals for membership structure and draft terms of reference of the joint community structural fund working group for consideration by both monitoring committees.

Overall, the joint steering group, which will liaise with the Department of Finance and Personnel, the Department of Finance in Dublin and the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, will provide a joint forum to which the SEUPB can report on a regular basis in respect of its common chapter activities in the context of the European structural funds.

I have given a broad outline of the nature of the working group and its main responsibilities.

I congratulate you, Mr Deputy Speaker, on your appointment, and I hope that you have an interesting time in the Chair.

Will the Minister confirm that this was the first North/ South Ministerial Council meeting in this sector since October? It indicates the genuine level of concern there is about special EU programmes and perhaps an altogether different agenda for the body. On the first page of his statement the Minister claimed that a substantial range of business was covered. Does he agree that since the meeting lasted for less than two and a half hours it is doubtful that anything of any substance occurred, other than the filling of the faces of Dublin Ministers at that meeting in the Adair Arms Hotel?

Can he confirm the costs of the meeting and who paid them? Other than being a lunch club for Nationalists, can the Minister detail any substantial or tangible measure that delivers assistance to my constituents as a result of the meeting? Can he confirm that he and his North/South body refused funding to the Gaslight project, which helps the disabled in North Antrim, as a result of the gap funding criteria mentioned in his statement? Does the Minister agree that the decision to hold the meeting in Ballymena was nothing more than a stunt? Does he agree that it was an attempt to rub the noses of Unionists in that Loyalist town given that such a meeting was taking place at such short notice?

My statement outlined the considerable volume of business that was addressed at the meeting, and I invite the Member to reread it in order to appreciate that. Like all meetings of the North/South Ministerial Council, the meeting received reports from officials and those associated with the various bodies on their work on the matters under their remit. The Member will be aware of the volume of activity and projects that rely on the availability of resources from Europe, each of which was itemised in my report.

The meeting was not a stunt. It was scheduled to take place. As Minister of Finance and Personnel, I was privileged to co-host the meeting with my Colleague Dermot Nesbitt on behalf of the Executive. As a representative for North Antrim, I was proud to bring the meeting to Ballymena, a town with a large number of pro-agreement representatives.

That is rubbish. The majority of councillors are anti-agreement.

If one adds the number of pro-agreement Unionist councillors in Ballymena to the number of SDLP councillors, who can be described as pro-agreement, the answer shows that it is not the town that the Member described.

Many of those who attended from the South were pleased with the warmth of the welcome that was extended to them by the deputy mayor of the borough, who was accompanied by another council member and its chief executive officer. In the light of the warm welcome, many of them expressed a genuine desire to visit further the beauties of North Antrim. If it falls within my power, when it is next my turn to co-host the meeting - [Interruption].

Order.

- I shall seek to locate it again in some of the most beautiful parts of Northern Ireland.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I agree with the Minister's desire to hold the North/South Ministerial Council's next meeting in Ballymena. The issues that were discussed are as important to the people and community groups in Ballymena as they are to people elsewhere. I am glad that Ian Paisley Jnr indicated that the meetings should be extended in order to allow the North/South Ministerial Council to become more effective.

Given that out of 300 applications to a rural programme only 14 farmers received funding, can the Minister confirm whether the European funding to which he referred and the Peace II package will achieve their objective of helping the local strategy groups and those people who have been waiting a considerable time for gap funding?

That gives some idea of how difficult it is to complete those forms. What will be done to improve the situation so that the programme can achieve its original objective?

We cannot predict success because we are at the early stages of implementing the various EU programmes. However, we plan for success, and we have every hope that we will achieve the aims and objectives of the various programmes. I assure the Member that, although some concerns have been raised about the application process, assistance is available. For example, the intermediate funding bodies are charged with providing technical assistance, which includes helping people find their way through the application process. The bodies are given resources to provide that assistance.

At this early stage of the application process, I do not have any evidence of applications that have not been successful under the Peace II or other programmes. I assure the Member that applications are being, and will be, rigorously scrutinised to ensure that they meet the criteria. In that way, we can be assured that the finances are made available on a basis that is as fair and equitable as possible and that they address real needs in our communities.

I add my congratulations to those of other Members on your appointment, Mr Deputy Speaker. I also welcome the Minister of Finance and Personnel. It is the first time that I have spoken to him since he was appointed.

Unlike some Members, I think that this is a comprehensive piece of work. Like many Members, I have been concerned about the work of the EU programmes and their progress. I am glad to see that work is being done in this area.

Following on from Mr McHugh's question, I would like to ask about gap funding. In his statement, the Minister said that around 70% of all gap-funded projects will be assessed under full applications by the end of March. Can I, and the groups that will be directly affected, be assured that the gap-funding arrangements will address the concerns of those organisations whose very futures have been threatened by the transition to Peace II?

There is concern about gap funding, some of which is understandable, and some of which is not well-founded. Gap funding was made available to address problems created by the unfortunate delay to the development and implementation of Peace II funding. The deadline for the end of gap funding has been extended for the third time. When all of the finances have been drawn down under that provision, the necessary decisions will be taken by the end of April, which is the date for the closure of allocations under gap funding. We are determined to meet that deadline.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I too congratulate you on your appointment.

I welcome the Minister's statement. I would like to pick up on some of the negative comments Ian Paisley Jnr made in his contribution. Does the Minister agree that the DUP may be suffering from a multiple-personality disorder, given that the DUP mayor initially accepted an invitation to attend the North/South Ministerial Council meeting in Ballymena, only to pull out at the last minute? Can the Minister offer any logical explanation as to why other DUP councillors have complained that they were not informed of the meeting, when their colleague, the mayor, knew all the details, and Ian Paisley Jnr was publicly snubbing the event in a blaze of publicity? Furthermore, does the Minister agree that the only thing certain with the DUP is that it enjoys the benefits of the Good Friday Agreement while pretending to remain outside it?

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Members cannot make points of order during a ministerial statement.

Unlike the Speaker, I do not have the power to analyse the psychological or psychiatric condition of any party or Member. However, the reaction of the DUP to the meeting in Ballymena was curious. Members of the DUP participate in local strategy partnerships, which are mechanisms through which European funding is made available, and they also participate in district partnerships. Communities represented by DUP councillors and Members benefit considerably from measures funded by European Union programmes and administered by the Special EU Programmes Body. As a lay person who does not have the Speaker's professional insight, it seems to me that some DUP party members suffer from a degree of schizophrenia with respect to the European Union project and the manner in which it is administered in Northern Ireland and in the South through the assistance of the Special EU Programmes Body.

I welcome the Minister's statement and see it in the positive light of the European Community's good work in serving the needs of the people in Northern Ireland. I hope that my supplementary question illustrates that positive aspect. Can the Minister confirm that substantial progress has been made with all elements of European funding under the control of the Special EU Programmes Body and that local communities are now beginning to see the benefits of funding?

All of the European Union programmes under the current round of structural funds are progressing well. Under the Peace II programme, intermediary funding bodies and local strategy partnerships have been appointed, and the first funds are expected to flow between now and the end of April. The other programmes - LEADER+, EQUAL, URBAN and INTERREG III - are progressing, and we expect the formal adoption of INTERREG III by the European Commission shortly.

In relation to the transnational strand of INTERREG IIIB, a publicity seminar will be held in Templepatrick on 6 March 2002.

Since Mr Paisley Jnr seems to think that I cannot identify any project that has benefited, I will take this opportunity to say that after the meeting in Ballymena I visited a special school in that town. The staff expressed considerable appreciation for the assistance given through EU funds, which enabled a specialist music teacher to be appointed. This teacher has done considerable work on behalf of children experiencing disability and learning problems. The staff were most gracious in their welcome and in the appreciation that they extended. Had we had time, there are many other projects in north Antrim and elsewhere to which we could have brought our visitors, so that they could have seen at first hand the benefit that these funds are bringing to both communities and, indeed, to the North and South as well.

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. A LeasCheann Comhairle, can you clarify the position regarding Members wearing or not wearing jackets when addressing the House. My party leader and I have previously been asked to put on a jacket when we rose to speak. I support the right of any Member to wear or not to wear a jacket when addressing the House, but I want the policy applied consistently.

I am most relieved at the profound concern of the Member about proper order in the Chamber. On this occasion the Member concerned raised the matter personally with the Speaker. Out of an undue concern for the matters arising in the Chamber this morning, he had left his home in Omagh without a jacket. In those circumstances it seemed unreasonable to me that he should either miss the extraordinarily important events of the Chamber or have to return to Omagh to acquire his jacket.

Of course, if the Member who raised the point of order has a spare jacket of a similar size I have no doubt that the degree of inter-party co-operation in the Chamber would mean that Mr Byrne could be supplied appropriately.

On a constituency basis.

That too. Point of order, Mr Paisley Jnr. If the Member is going to offer his jacket I am sure it would be acceptable.

During the previous question and answer session I was under the impression that Members who are not in attendance for a statement are not usually entitled to ask a question. Perhaps you could clarify that. A question was asked by the Member for East Londonderry, Mr Dallat, who yo-yoed in and out the side Door during the course of Dr Farren's boring statement. He was not here when the statement was being made, and I do not understand why he was called to ask a question, which was completely superfluous to the issue being addressed.

I am astonished that the Member is raising the question of revolving Members, since they are a mere understudy to revolving Ministers.

Having checked briefly with the Clerks, I understand that the Member was in the Chamber for parts of the statement. The ruling is that Members who are not in the Chamber for any part of a statement will not be allowed to ask a question. Members present for part of a statement will be able to ask a question only after all those Members who were in the Chamber for all the statement have had an opportunity to ask their questions and then only if there is time remaining. I trust that that helps to answer the Member's concerns.

Health and Personal Social Services Bill:
First Stage

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Molaim go dtugtar a Chéad Chéim don Bhille Sláinte agus Seirbhísí Sóisialta agus Pearsanta.

I beg leave to lay before the Assembly a Bill [NIA Bill 6/01) to amend the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1972 in relation to charges for nursing care in residential accommodation; to provide for the establishment and functions of the Northern Ireland Practice and Education Council for Nursing and Midwifery; and for connected purposes.

The Bill will be put on the list of pending business until a date for its Second Stage has been determined.

Children (Leaving Care) Bill: First Stage

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Molaim go dtugtar a Chéad Chéim don Bhille Leanaí (Ag Fágáil Cúraim).

I beg leave to lay before the Assembly a Bill [NIA Bill 5/01] to make provision about children and young persons who are being, or have been, looked after by an authority within the meaning of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995; to replace article 35 of that Order; and for connected purposes.

The Bill will be put on the list of pending business until a date for its Second Stage has been determined.

Personal Social Services (Amendment) Bill: 
Consideration Stage

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Mr Speaker:

Members will have a copy of the Marshalled List of Amendments, which details the order of consideration. There are four groups of amendments, which we shall debate in turn.

The first debate will be on amendments 1, 2 and 6; the second on amendments 3, 5 and 7; the third on amendment 4; and the fourth on amendment 8. I remind Members who intend to speak that during the debate they should address all the amendments of each particular group on which they comment in so far as they wish to speak on them.

Molaim leasú uimhir 1.

I beg to move amendment No 1: In clause 2, page 2, line 21, leave out

No 2: New Clause

After Article 17 of the Children Order there shall be inserted -

No 6: In clause 8, page 9, line 13, after "individual" insert "aged 16 or over". - [Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety.]

Creidim go dtugann an leasú seo aitheantas do leanbh-chúramóirí agus go dtugann sé aghaidh ar a gcuid riachtanas. Is é polasaí mo Roinne caitheamh le leanbh-chúramóirí mar leanaí ar dtús agus ansin mar chúramóirí. Ní maith liom go nglacfadh leanaí freagrachtaí cúraim chucu féin a chuirfeadh as dá n-oideachas agus dá bhforás.

Is é aidhm an leasaithe seo, a chuireann alt 17A nua san Ordú Leanaí (Tuaisceart Éireann) 1995, ligean do leanbh-chúramóirí measúnú a lorg. Cinnfidh an measúnú ar cé acu is "leanbh le riachtanais" an leanbh- chúramóir chun críocha alt 18 den Ordú Leanaí. Má mheasúnaítear riachtanais a bheith ag an leanbh, ceadóidh alt 18 den Ordú Leanaí don iontaobhas seirbhísí a sholáthar.

Baineann an leasú le gach cúramóir faoi bhun 18 agus ligfidh sé mar sin do chúramóirí de 16 agus 17 a bheith á measúnú faoin Bhille seo agus faoin Ordú Leanaí. Is é m'aidhm nach rachfaí i muinín an Bhille ach go hannamh nuair a bheifí ag amharc ar riachtanais cúramóirí atá 16 agus 17. Ba chóir go mbeadh seirbhísí tacaíochta á gcur ar fáil sa ghnáthshlí don duine fhásta atá faoi mhíchumas lena chinntiú nach mbeidh an duine óg ag gabháil do fhreagrachtaí troma cúraim go rialta

Aithním, áfach, go mb'fhéidir go roghnóidh duine óg de 16 nó 17 bliana in imthosca áirithe freagrachtaí cúraim a ghlacadh, nuair a bhíos tinneas báis ar thuismitheoir, mar shampla. Sna himthosca sin, is dóigh liom go mbeadh sé cuí seirbhísí a thairiscint don duine óg le tacú leis ina ról cúraim.

This amendment recognises child carers and addresses their needs. My Department's policy is to treat all child carers as children first and carers second. I do not want children to assume responsibility for levels of caring that could impact on their education and development. The purpose of the amendment, which would insert a new article, 17A, in the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, is to allow child carers to request an assessment.

The assessment will determine whether the child carer is a child in need for the purposes of article 18 of the 1995 Order. If the child is assessed as being in need, article 18 of the 1995 Order will allow the trust to provide services. The amendment applies to all carers under 18 and so will allow for 16- and 17-year old carers to be assessed both under this Bill and under the 1995 Order.

I intend that this Bill should be used only rarely when looking at the needs of 16- and 17-year-olds. Support services should normally be provided for disabled adults to ensure that young people do not undertake regular and substantial caring responsibilities. However, I recognise that a young person of 16 or 17 may choose in some circumstances to assume caring responsibilities - for example, when a parent is terminally ill. In those circumstances, it is appropriate that services be offered to such a young person to provide support in that caring role.

The amendment to clause 2, line 21 is consequent on the amendment to the definition of carer in clause 8, line 13. The effect of those amendments is to restrict the application of clauses 1 to 3 of the Bill to carers over the age of 16. The new article 17A of the 1995 Order will cover carers under the age of 16.

The Chairperson of the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety (Dr Hendron): The Committee took evidence on the Personal Social Services (Amendment) Bill from a range of organisations that will be affected by it. Among them were Barnardo's, Carers Northern Ireland and the Children's Law Centre. They were asked to return to the Committee after the Committee Stage of the Bill so that the late concerns that they had raised could be discussed. That has been part of the democratic learning curve for groups dealing with the Assembly. Those discussions have led to proposals for amendments to the Bill, and I thank all who contributed to the process.

The amendments tabled by the Committee were, of necessity, drafted without the benefit of expert legislative drafting advice, so I welcome the Minister's bringing forward the amendments before us today in response to the Committee's concerns. These amendments will make several important improvements to the Bill in relation to the short title, information on assessments and the rights of children under 16 who must act as carers. They reflect the Committee's concerns but are technically more competent than the amendments that the Committee drafted, and for that reason the Committee was content to withdraw its amendments.

I thank Barnardo's, Carers Northern Ireland and the Children's Law Centre for raising their concerns about the Bill's failure to identify children acting as carers with the Committee. Although it was late in the day, the Committee and the Department worked hard to discuss the impact of the changes on the Bill and to bring these amendments to the Floor of the Chamber. The Minister's action today reflects the power of Committees, aided and abetted by the public, to make necessary and important changes to legislation. The Minister's amendments would not have happened if the voluntary organisations had not brought these serious omissions in the Bill to the attention of the Committee and if the Committee had not considered their concerns and agreed that there were deficiencies in the Bill. But for that process, the Bill would be the poorer.

Amendments 1 and 6, which we support, are consequential changes, and I will not comment on them. Amendment 2 provides for a completely new and substantial clause that sets out the rights of child carers. As I stressed earlier, this illustrates the power of Committees to change a Bill for the better. The new clause, "Assessments and services for children who are carers", is to protect the rights of children. The Committee tabled its amendment on this, and I am pleased that the Minister's amendment adopts the Committee's position.

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