Health, Social Services and Public Safety

Question 17, in the name of Mrs Mary Nelis, has been transferred to the Minister of Finance and Personnel and will receive a written answer.

1.

asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what action has been taken to provide free long-term care for the elderly residing in nursing homes.

(AQO 801/01)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Ciallaíonn reachtaíocht bheartaithe nua, a chuirfear os comhair an Tionóil go gairid, nach gcuirfear costas chúram altranais san áireamh nuair a bheidh cumas daoine díol as costas cúraim i dtithe altranais á mheasúnú ó Dheireadh Fómhair na bliana seo.

D'aontaigh an Coiste Feidhmiúcháin fosta ag a gcruinniú an 3 Bealtaine 2001 gur chóir go mbunófaí sainghrúpa idir-ranna leis na himpleachtaí agus na costais a bhainfeadh le tabhairt isteach cúraim phearsanta saor in aisce do chónaitheoirí tithe altranais agus tithe cónaithe a bhreithniú.

Proposed new legislation, which will come to the Assembly shortly, will mean that from this October the cost of nursing care will not be included when people's ability to contribute to the cost of being cared for in nursing homes is being assessed. At a meeting on 3 May 2001, the Executive agreed that an interdepartmental expert group should be established to examine the implications and costs of introducing free personal care for residential and nursing home residents and to report its findings to the Executive. The expert group has embarked on this work and will report to the Executive as soon as possible.

Does the Minister agree that the present system discriminates against those persons who have been put upon throughout their lives by paying tax and National Insurance? Should they not expect to be entitled to free nursing and personal care in later life?

I accept that there is an anomaly in nursing care. It is supplied free of charge, as a health service, to a person in his or her own home or to a resident in a residential care home, if it is supplied externally by a trust via the community nursing service. A resident has to pay for nursing care in a nursing home only where the service is supplied as part of the overall cost.

To remove this inequitable position I propose that from this October the nursing care element of the total cost will be met from public funds, which will reduce the overall cost at an individual level. As regards personal care, I refer the Member to my first answer.

What action will the Minister take to tackle the diabolically excessive increase in charges for patients in private nursing homes? What reassurance will she give to such patients?

This is an interesting supplementary question to draw out the idea of my proposals for free long-term care for the elderly. I would not have thought that the present tariffs were exactly in line with that. The measures I am proposing aim to reduce the overall cost of care to those in nursing homes by removing the nursing care element. However, the amount that any individual pays is a matter between them and the homes in which they reside.

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. My question was answered in the reply given to Mr Armstrong's supplementary question.

I want to draw the Minister's attention to the lack of care provided by the Southern Health and Social Services Board, where elderly people and disabled children have had their services withdrawn due to financial restrictions. Many elderly people have been left without any care, and care workers have been made unemployed. In the context of providing care, will the Minister indicate what action she can take to assist the board and the constituent trusts to provide care equal to that given in every other part of the Six Counties?

A huge number of Members asked to put supplementaries to the Minister on this question. It appears, however, that the supplementaries are somewhat tangential to the subject of the question. I must ask Members to stick to the original question. It is difficult enough when a large number of Members ask for supplementaries, but it is impossible to make a proper judgement when at least half of them are about something else. I must, therefore, move on.

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2.

asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety whether there has been any diminution of acute services in Tyrone County Hospital since July 2001.

(AQO 778/01)

Dearbhaíodh domh gur ghlac Bord an Iarthair agus Iontaobhas Speirín, Tír na Lochanna cibé céimeanna is gá le próifíl géarsheirbhísí ag Ospidéal Chontae Thír Eoghain a choinneáil.

Mar shampla, leithroinn an bord £200,000 breise go hathfhillteach le seirbhísí altranais ag Ospidéal Chontae Thír Eoghain agus na hÉirne a choinneáil; tugadh fostaíocht bhuan do roinnt foirne sealadaí; agus tá an tIontaobhas ag infheistiú £500,000 breise le seirbhísí a choinneáil, lena n-áirítear foireann bhreise in ainéistic, i bpéidiatric agus i raideolaíocht.

I have been assured that the Western Board and the Sperrin Lakeland Health and Social Care Trust have taken such steps as are necessary to sustain the profile of acute services at Tyrone County Hospital. For example, the board has committed an extra £200,000 recurrently to sustaining nursing services at the Tyrone County Hospital and the Erne Hospital. A number of temporary staff have been made permanent, and the trust is investing an extra £500,000 to sustain services, which include the support of additional staff in anaesthesiology, paediatrics and radiology.

I find the Minister's answer most interesting. It does not explain why, at the joint meeting of Fermanagh and Omagh district councils on Wednesday last week, the chief executive of the Sperrin Lakeland Health and Social Care Trust indicated that the Hayes Report would be implemented and that the intention was that Tyrone County Hospital would be run down. Will the Minister assure us that no one from her Department is advising him that that is the case while she is telling us otherwise?

First, the Member's question was about a diminution of acute services in Tyrone County Hospital since July 2001, and I had hoped that the supplementary question would bear some relation to that.

Secondly, under no circumstances has anyone given any indication other than that which I have reiterated here. After discussion in the Executive, proposals will be put out for consultation, an equality impact assessment will be carried out, and at that point during 2002 final decisions will be made. No decisions have been taken at this point.

At the risk of being tangential, and rather than allow the Minister to run around in circles, I will ask if she is aware that when services within Sperrin Lakeland Health and Social Care Trust have been transferred from the Tyrone County Hospital in the past, the uptake has not reflected that expected in the conglomeration of the two services. Patients are voting with their feet, and in the Tyrone County Hospital side they are moving to another trust area for service.

Patients may vote with their feet, their cars, their buses or any other method of transport to avail of services. That is their right and their choice. However, the boards and trusts continually review their services to reflect demand, and they occasionally reconfigure services according to that demand. I have received an assurance from the trust that any sort of reconfiguration or realignment that takes place between winter and summer, or at any stage, to reflect demand will have no negative impact on patient safety or quality of care.

The board and the trust assure me that no distinction is made when considering the sustainability of the profiles in both hospitals pending the outcome of the acute hospitals review. That is what they have been asked to do, and they assure me that they are doing it.

Does the Minister stand by the earlier commitment that the "bridge to the future" concept still pertains, so that the Tyrone County Hospital will not suffer a meltdown in acute services during the limbo period before a strategic decision is made by management? When does the Minister intend to pay an official visit to the Tyrone County Hospital in Omagh to meet the medical and nursing staff, who would appreciate such a visit, no doubt?

When I made an official visit to hospitals in Omagh and Enniskillen in December, the staff at both hospitals told me that they greatly appreciated my visit.

On sustaining services and profiles at the hospitals pending final decisions in 2002, officials are meeting senior officers at the Western Board and the Sperrin Lakeland Trust on a regular basis. I am satisfied that the board and the trust are taking the steps necessary to secure services at both the Tyrone County and Erne Hospital sites. I reiterate that I have received assurances from the board and the trust that no distinction is being made when considering the sustainability of the profiles at those hospitals.

3.

asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to outline (a) the average number of hours worked by junior hospital doctors in the past year; (b) if this has improved since the previous year; and (c) any strategies she is adopting to deal with this issue.

(AQO 798/01)

Tá grúpa feidhmithe (ISG) bunaithe ag mo Roinn le cuidiú le hiontaobhais cloí leis na teorainneacha ar uaireanta oibre agus riachtanais scíthe an réitigh nua d'uaireanta dochtúirí sóisearacha. Ó Lúnasa 2001 tá ISG ag obair le hiontaobhais agus le boird leis an réiteach nua a sholáthar agus le caighdeáin chóiríochta agus lónadóireachta a fheabhsú.

Information on the average number of hours worked by junior doctors in the past year is not available centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. My Department has established an implementation support group (ISG) to assist trusts to achieve compliance with the limits on hours of work and rest requirements in the new deal on junior doctors' hours.

Since August 2001, the ISG has been working with trusts and boards to deliver the new deal and improve accommodation and catering standards. Key members of the ISG are engaged in an intensive round of visits to the trusts to identify problems and to check that trusts have given sufficient priority to achieving the new deal. They are also assisting trusts by spreading good practice, which will help trusts to achieve compliance through facilitating changes in doctors' working patterns and practices and by instituting skill-mix initiatives where appropriate. The key priority for this year is to ensure that full compliance with new deal is achieved for all pre-registration house officer posts by August 2002.

I thank the Minister for her answer, but the underlying problem of the failure to train enough doctors must be addressed urgently. The increase in the number of places in universities' medical schools is pitifully inadequate; junior doctors must therefore work long hours because there are not enough of them. That makes the profession increasingly unattractive to young people.

I agree with the Member's comments about the number of people who have been trained in the past. I have said on many occasions that the funding failures of the past meant that money which should have been put into the system for health and social services was taken out of it. In addition, money and time were not invested in training, equipment and services for the community and its hospitals.

That has left the Department without the flexibility and capacity that it needs. I concur with the Member's concerns about the impact that that has on junior doctors. I have met with junior doctors' representatives. The ISG is working to tackle the necessary arrangements. The Department is undertaking a major workforce planning exercise in order to ensure that the necessary investments in training for the future are made now.

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Has the Minister met with junior doctors and listened to their concerns?

As I have said, I have met with junior doctors' representatives. I am closely monitoring the progress of the work of the ISG. The group is paying particular attention to the introduction of a range of initiatives that will enhance support for junior doctors and will reduce or eliminate inappropriate tasks being carried out by them. The junior doctors met with the Chief Medical Officer at the end of last year. They have frequent meetings at official level, one of which is scheduled for later this week. They have representation on the ISG, which meets quarterly. Liaison meetings with the chairperson of the group take place between meetings of the entire group.

When the Minister is considerate enough to give an answer in not one but two languages, I request that Members ensure that their supplementary questions do not ask the previous question again. The Minister did not answer in Ulster Scots. However, I hope that, when I call Mr Shannon to put his question, it will not be a repetition.

I shall put my question to the Minister in English. Will the Minister acknowledge that junior doctors, and indeed all doctors, work excessive hours? How many have needed time off due to overwork and stress? Is working those long hours against the trusts' guidelines?

I share the Member's concerns. A recent survey of all trusts and boards indicated that 70% of junior doctors are working in posts that are non-compliant with the hours and rest requirements of the new deal. That is why I have made certain that the work of the implementation support group, and any other work that can be done, will be done in order to meet those requirements. I commend the work of all of those who are working hard to ensure that arrangements are those that junior doctors and others should expect. This year's key priority is that full compliance with the new deal is achieved for all pre-registration house officer posts by August.

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4.

asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to make a statement on the ovarian cancer research programme announced recently.

(AQO 806/01)

Tagraíonn an fógra a rinneadh le gairid ar thaighde ailse ubhagáin do thriail chomhoibritheach ar scagadh le haghaidh ailse ubhagáin a bhfuiltear ag tabhairt fúithi in Ospidéal Chathair Bhéal Feirste agus in ionaid ar fud Sasana, na hAlban agus na Breataine Bige. Mairfidh an triail 10 mbliana ,agus féachfaidh sí lena léiriú go deimhneach an féidir le scagadh le haghaidh ailse ubhagáin beo a shábháil.

The recent announcement on ovarian cancer research refers to a collaboration trial of ovarian cancer screening, which is being undertaken at Belfast City Hospital and at centres throughout England, Scotland and Wales. The trial will run for 10 years. It seeks to show definitively whether screening for ovarian cancer can save lives.

I thank the Minister for her answer. What does she hope to achieve from the trial?

If the Minister wishes to elaborate, I will happily give her the opportunity to do so, but she has given a clear answer about the purpose of the trial.

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

I do not take points of order during ministerial questions.

I wanted to ask what the Minister hopes to achieve from the trial.

I heard the question. I also heard the answer, and I think that I have some knowledge of those things.

Minister, you may elaborate if you wish, although you should not feel compelled to do so.

As I said, the trial seeks to show definitively whether screening for ovarian cancer can save lives. Methods to detect ovarian cancer early have been developed, and the trial will determine how effective the screening tests are. It will be 2012 before final conclusions can be drawn. The importance of the trial lies in the fact that ovarian cancer is the fourth commonest cause of death from cancer among women here.

5.

asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety when she will publish the implementation plan for the 'Investing for Health' Report.

(AQO 780/01)

Tá súil agam an straitéis 'Infheistíocht do Shláinte' a fhoilsiú an mhí seo chugainn.

I hope to publish the 'Investing for Health' strategy next month.

It was such a short answer that I almost did not hear what the Minister said.

Perhaps if the House were a little quieter and more attentive to the Minister, the Member would have a chance to hear the Minister's concise answer.

You are right, Mr Speaker.

Does the Minister agree that when targets are set, we expect action? Page 31 of the first Programme for Government, published in February 2001, stated that the public consultation for the 'Investing for Health' strategy was to be completed, and that by September 2001 an implementation plan was to be published. It is now February 2002, and we are still no further forward. With such dragging of feet, is it any wonder that the Health Service is in its current state?

The consultation period was to end on 10 April 2001. However, because of difficulties in organising consultation events in rural areas as a result of foot-and-mouth disease, it was decided to extend the consultation period until 31 May. Even I am not responsible for foot-and-mouth disease. In the last plenary debate before the Christmas recess, one Member suggested that I was almost responsible for the Ulster fry and the amount that people in Ireland drink. However, to hold me responsible for foot-and-mouth disease is to take a step too far.

In addition, the ministerial group on public health agreed that a feedback conference would form an integral part of the consultation process, as that would inform respondents about the outcomes of the consultation and provide a final opportunity for comment. Having extended the consultation period until 31 May, it was not then feasible, if community representatives were to be included, to hold that conference during the summer. The conference was eventually held on 5 October.

The development of the strategy has since involved the co-ordination of input from all Departments, and the consideration of the draft strategy by a quality assurance group. As the Member knows, I chair the ministerial group on public health. Representatives on that group also include senior officials from every Executive Department. It will consider the final draft of the strategy at its meeting on Wednesday before submitting it to the Executive for approval.

I am sure that the Minister's report 'Investing for Health' will refer to measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccinations. Serious complications are associated with those diseases, and children's health must be paramount. We understand the uncertainty of many parents about the safety of the MMR vaccine. Does the Minister agree that overwhelming evidence and research, including that from the World Health Organization, shows that MMR - [Interruption].

Order. If Members are trying to ask a supplementary question, they should try to find one that is at least relevant to the substantial question. The whole House accepts that the Chairperson's question is important. However, the connection with the substantive question is tenuous to say the least. It would be unfair of me to permit the Member to continue.

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Níl Ulster Scots ná Ullans agam, ach bainfidh mé triail as an Ghaeilge. An féidir leis an Aire insint dúinn cá mhéad ama a mheastar a bhéas riachtanach leis an phlean seo a chur i bhfeidhm?

After the consultation on the report and its finalisation, will the Minister indicate what timescale is involved in the implementation of the 'Investing for Health' plan?

Consultation was covered in my response to Mr McCarthy's question. The implementation strategy will have several stages, but we see it as the future way of working. For it to succeed, there must be an effective partnership at every level. For the foreseeable future the ministerial group on public health will work with a variety of Departments to ensure that health factors are given due consideration in all areas of responsibility. In addition, the four health and social services boards will also lead local 'Investing for Health' partnerships to identify opportunities to improve the health of the people in their area by addressing the social, cultural, economic and environmental determinants of health. They will develop long-term, local, cross-sectoral health improvement plans, again with short-term and longer-term targets. In the statutory sector, district councils, the Housing Executive, education and library boards, and health and social services trusts will all be included in those partnerships. Beyond those core members, the composition of the partnerships will be determined locally and is likely to evolve over time. The idea behind that is that in future the work of the strategy will become an integral part of the planning and outworking of policy in all areas - not only in health.

Some implementation is immediate. I will shortly announce the community grants programme. Some will take slightly longer; the setting up of local partnerships will take place in the coming months. The most important part will be to establish a new way of working, in keeping with the Executive's Programme for Government. For the foreseeable future interim targets will be regularly monitored.

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6.

asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail any discussions she has had with the Department of Education regarding the care of young people leaving schools such as Hillcroft Special School, Newtownabbey, at the age of 19.

(AQO 784/01)

Ní raibh aon phlé agam leis an Roinn Oideachas faoin ábhar seo.

Tá na socruithe le freastal ar riachtanais chúram sláinte daoine óga a fhágann scoileanna speisialta leagtha amach in alt 5 den Acht Daoine Míchumasacha (Tuaisceart Éireann) 1989. Soláthraíonn 'Cód Cleachtais d'Aithint agus do Mheasúnú Riachtanas Speisialta Oideachas' treoir faoi conas is cóir na socruithe a dhéanamh.

I have had no discussion with the Department of Education on that matter. Arrangements for meeting the continuing healthcare needs of young people leaving special schools are set out in section 5 of the Disabled Persons (Northern Ireland) Act 1989. The Department of Education's code of practice for the identification and assessment of special educational needs provides guidance on how such arrangements should be made. It is for the relevant education and library board to identify those leaving special schools and to inform the appropriate health and social services trust. In turn, the trust is responsible for assessing need and arranging for the necessary services to be provided.

I thank the Minister for her reply, which focused with procedures but dealt very little with the individuals who are clearly in need. Will she agree that there is a significant underprovision of places in day care for adults with learning disabilities? That is compounded by the difficulties of managing centres with increasing numbers of elderly people as well as young adults. Is she aware that approximately 40 minutes ago in the Chamber, the Minister of Education gave an undertaking that education and library boards might offer facilities to health and social services trusts outside school hours, subject to local agreement? If so, will she follow up that ministerial initiative and ensure that funds are provided to community health and social services trusts to enable the use of school facilities to provide for adults whose age excludes them from the remit of special schools?

I am aware of the pressure on statutory day care facilities, particularly as a result of the factors that the Member raised, and also because of the increasing number of people with severe disabilities who are unable to access alternative day facilities.

It is for the health and social services boards and trusts to assess need and provide the appropriate range and volume of services. That is why I outlined the arrangements in my opening answer. Those arrangements are between the education and library boards and the health and social services boards and trusts, and I am certain that the boards and trusts will wish to follow up any suggestion of facilities that might be made available. That raises the question of whether that would automatically mean that they could provide appropriate facilities or that there would be funding available for them. They need to examine all that.

It is for the relevant boards and trusts to inform themselves of the needs of those leaving special schools in their areas and to plan to meet those needs. I understand that funding is needed for day care and for a range of other health and social services, and I will examine that with a view to allocating additional funding in 2002-03. I will announce my decisions in due course.

Does the Minister agree that all young people leaving special education should be entitled to a full-time place at an adult facility or day centre in order to continue to avail of the opportunities that were created for them at the special school? I am thinking, in particular, of the Riverside School in Antrim. It has a high reputation, but it cannot send its pupils, on leaving, to the local day centre, which is advising in advance that it will be unable to admit them.

I am aware of several schools; those mentioned are both in the Homefirst Community Health and Social Services Trust area. That trust is planning how best to meet the needs of those who they know are leaving special schools in the area. Those needs include social work support, day care, respite care and a challenging-behaviour service. As I said in answer to the previous supplementary question, the availability of resources is an issue, and I will consider it.

The Homefirst Community Health and Social Services Trust advises me that it has identified those young people who will transfer to adult services, and it is planning to meet their needs.

Order. The time for questions to the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety is up.

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Finance and Personnel

The Minister of Finance and Personnel makes another appearance. Even after this, his work will not be over.

I wish to inform the House that question 6, in the name of Mr Gibson, has been withdrawn and will receive a written answer. Question 12, in the name of Mr McGrady, has been withdrawn and no longer requires an answer.

1.

asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel what measures are in place to ensure that Peace II funding is distributed equitably across all sections of the community.

(AQO 823/01)

All areas, groups and sectors will have an equal opportunity to access Peace II funding. Equality of opportunity and balanced intervention are among several horizontal principles that govern the way in which the Peace II programme will be implemented. Furthermore, in accordance with section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, the Special EU Programmes Body has a responsibility to promote equality of opportunity.

That being the case, perhaps the Minister will explain the situation in Lisburn. Funding was not distributed equally the last time: the Protestant community did not get its fair allocation. The new board does not reflect the balance in the community. Its chairperson and deputy chairperson are Roman Catholic, although the community is 70% Protestant. Coming from a background of unfair allocations, how can we expect equity and equality in the community? How does the Minister expect the public to have any confidence in the process?

Members will appreciate that I did not have any responsibility for the matters that the Member seems to be pointing to.

However, I would be very concerned if there were any substantial evidence to back up the Member's remarks. If he has any such evidence, he should make it available to me. In my initial response, I indicated that the Executive have a clear, firm and explicit obligation to respect all equality requirements when allocating EU Peace II programme funds. That applies to EU funds and to all expenditure for which the Executive are responsible, and it applies across the board when allocating any form of public funding. Again, without evidence that would enable me to make a judgement, it is impossible for me to answer the question.

How will Peace II resources be targeted?

Peace II resources will be targeted on areas, sectors and groups that have been adversely affected by the conflict over the past 30 years. Those will include areas that were disadvantaged by the conflict, interface areas, victims and their families, ex-prisoners and their families, young people, women, older workers, and sectors or activities in business, the arts and sports that have been adversely affected by the conflict.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. How does the Minister expect Peace II funding to be distributed equitably, given that it is based on need - rather than religion, as the DUP may suggest - and given that district council areas west of the River Bann have seen a decrease in the allocation of Peace II funding?

I have made it clear that funds are allocated on the basis of equality with due respect to the requirements set out in section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. The Member will be aware - and members of the Committee for Finance and Personnel will be even more aware - of the considerable amount of consultation and discussion that has taken place on the basis on which allocations would be made, for example, to local strategic partnerships in the current round of Peace II funding allocations. The indicators were agreed by the Committee for Finance and Personnel and the Executive, which therefore includes the Ministers from the Member's party.

2.

asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to detail the funding arrangements in place for the use of official cars by Ministers in the Executive.

(AQO 808/01)

The Department of Finance and Personnel funds the provision of official transport for 10 of the 14 Ministers. Different funding arrangements apply to the transport for the First Minister and the Ministers for Regional Development, Education and Health, Social Services and Public Safety.

I thank the Minister for his reply. Like the rest of us, I am sure that the Minister is desirous of keeping down the cost of official transportation for Ministers. Is he satisfied that the most cost-effective arrangements are in place, particularly bearing in mind the relative cost of using official chauffeurs and contracted outside firms?

I am satisfied that that is the case. A comparison of the costs of the alternative arrangements for providing official transport concluded that there were substantial savings - £300,000 in a full year - to be had from maintaining an in-house service as opposed to a contracted service. The average cost per hour for in-house provision was found to be approximately £7 less than the service provided by a contractor.

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3.

asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to make a statement on the Executive's plans to implement green purchasing policies throughout Government Departments.

(AQO 771/01)

The procurement review team's report, which has been subject to public consultation, includes recommendations aimed at ensuring that environmental issues are integrated into public procurement policy. The contributions to the consultation exercise are being considered together with the team's recommendations, and I will bring forward policy proposals to the Executive in due course.

Will the Minister outline the environmental policy currently operated by the Department?

Each Department is responsible for examining the environmental impact of its activities, including procurement, as set out in the Northern Ireland Civil Service policy statement on green housekeeping. In my Department, where it is intended that the Government Purchasing Agency (GPA) should purchase goods or services specifically mentioned in the policy document, the appropriate environmental criteria are included in contract documentation. In addition, the Government Purchasing Agency tender documentation encourages suppliers to adopt positive environmental policies.

The Minister will be aware that great efforts are being made by his ministerial Colleague Mr Foster, and by district councils, to promote waste minimisation, recycling and so on. Is the Minister aware that the market for recycled products is one of the concerns as to the viability of recycling? In the interests of having a cross-cutting policy, would it not be circumspect for the Assembly, and government in general, to adopt a policy of using recycled paper and other materials?

I take on board the points that Mr Hussey has made. Where Departments and Government agencies are not respecting policy set down in the guidelines in the Northern Ireland Civil Service green housekeeping document, I would be anxious to ensure that henceforth they do.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. In the implementation of purchasing policies for Government Departments, has the Minister considered credit unions, as well as banks, with regard to financial arrangements within the Assembly?

The question strays outside the parameters of the original issue, which was related to public procurement. Nonetheless, I am sympathetic to the credit union movement, and where it can be facilitated by Government finances, I am sure that the matter will receive sympathetic consideration.

4.

asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to outline whether the Noble indicators of multiple deprivation have been rural and TSN-proofed before being used for allocating resources and EU funds.

(AQO 770/01)

The Noble research was designed to measure deprivation in urban and rural areas by selecting indicators that are applicable to both. The measures will inform the spatial targeting of programmes and will contribute to the application of targeting social need throughout government. The indicators that make up the measures, and the measures themselves, were agreed by all members of the Executive - including the two Ministers from Mr Molloy's party - prior to the publication of the report in July 2001.

Ceist uimhir a ceathair. First, I must correct something that the Minister said previously. The Committee for Finance and Personnel did not agree the allocations - in fact, the Committee opposed the allocations because they were linked not only to the Noble indicators but also to population. How does the Minister propose to target social need, particularly west of the Bann - an area that has been depopulated as a result of the role of successive British Governments and Unionist regimes? Currently, population is used as a measure, along with the Noble indicators, which do not target social need.

How does he explain the exclusion of large areas that were targeted by Noble as being deprived? The allocations to the district partnership boards have been reduced by £1 million.

I said earlier that there was widespread consultation on the Noble indicators, and that the Committee was involved in that consultation. It received presentations from officials in my Department. I will examine Hansard, and if I was inaccurate, I will ensure that that is corrected. I stressed that agreement on the use of the indicators was reached in the Executive, which includes two Ministers from the Member's party. I reiterate that point, because in an earlier debate Mr McGrady raised the matter of collective responsibility. We need to ensure that collective responsibility for Executive decisions is fully respected.

The development of the Noble indicators was a complex process. The index includes all the factors related to deprivation, and, appropriately, it relates those factors to the size of the population of an area. The allocations are then made on the basis of the indicators that are provided for each district council area. There has been concern about the matter, but the Member can receive again, through his Committee, a detailed presentation of all the issues related to the Noble indicators, if he and his Committee so wish. All Members are invited to gain information on how the indicators and the factors related to them were arrived at, and on their application.

Further to that answer, if Departments are using the Noble indicators of multiple deprivation in spending reviews and to influence decisions, why is the Minister of Education using different indicators in spending programmes? Does the Minister agree that the indicators should have been subject to a full, open debate in the House, and will he give a commitment to have such a debate?

I cannot possibly answer the first part of the Member's question. It must be directed to the Minister identified in the question.

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

No points of order are allowed.

The Member, in his question, asked me to speak on behalf of the Minister of Education about the issues that he raised. I cannot do that.

As I said before, the Noble indicators were developed and agreed as the basis upon which the allocations under Peace II programmes would be made. It is not possible to reopen the basis upon which those allocations are made. As I said in my previous response, Members can become fully informed about all the factors related to deprivation that inform the development of the Noble indicators. That would at least help Members to understand that, as a result of the widespread consultation, there seems to have been wide acceptance of the weighting of all those factors, in rural and urban areas.

I recognise that the way in which they are working out seems to cause concern. However, if Members wish to be as fully informed as possible on what has gone into making these indicators up, I will be only too happy to make that information available from my Department.

5.

asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel whether European moneys have been returned to Brussels as a result of underspend and whether these moneys would be redirected to areas in need.

(AQO 785/01)

No European money has been returned to the Commission as a result of underspending from the structural funds programmes for Northern Ireland. Funds in structural funds programmes can be redirected only within the guidelines and regulations laid down by the European Commission.

I thank the Minister for that response. I would like an explanation, therefore, of the numerous occasions on which the Budget and the Supplementary Estimates for Peace and Reconciliation funding - Peace I - have been reduced. By how much has that been reduced across all Departments? Can the Minister give us guarantees that that money will not go back to Brussels? Can it be used to bridge the gap between Peace I and Peace II? It was my understanding that if moneys were not spent by the end of a certain period, which was last December, they would go back.

I can assure the Member that it is expected that all moneys related to Peace I will be spent as planned. It is in the nature of the way in which funding is drawn down from Europe that money is drawn down against expenditure and, therefore, that there is no question of a return. However, I want to underline that it is anticipated that all of the planned expenditure will take place.

What monitoring arrangements are in place to ensure that underspent money is directed where it is needed, particularly to areas such as Strabane and west Tyrone, which lost out in Peace II funding?

The treatment of structural funds expenditure is based on the principle that receipts from the European Community should be managed, disbursed and monitored in exactly the same way, and using the same systems, as our own public expenditure. The basic principles of Government accounting apply to European Community receipts. In Northern Ireland the community structural fund monitoring committee has an overarching role across our structural funds programmes to ensure effective implementation and value for money.

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