Northern Ireland Assembly
Monday 4 February 2002 (continued)
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The Chairperson of the Committee for Regional Development (Mr A Maginness): On behalf of the Committee, I thank the Minister for the manner in which he and departmental officials ensured that the Regional Development Committee was kept informed and was consulted throughout the development of the regional transportation strategy. The Regional Development Committee has taken an active and sustained interest in the development of the strategy. It has taken its responsibilities seriously, and, for that reason, its members have only recently returned from a fact-finding tour of public transport and traffic-management systems of several European cities. That was a particularly useful visit, which demonstrated what can be achieved not only with high levels of funding, but with well-thought-out policies and properly managed implementation plans. If the regional transportation strategy is to succeed, it is vital that the proposed funding level of an additional £950 million is made available. That presents a challenge to the House and to the Executive in particular. However, if Members recognise the importance of developing our infrastructure and the extent of underinvestment in roads and public transportation over the last 30 years, we must rise to the challenge. I appreciate that there are many pressing needs, in particular, the Health Service and education. Nevertheless, we must not underestimate the benefit of a well-maintained transportation system to our long-term social, environmental and economic well-being. The economy will benefit from less traffic congestion. The transportation of goods and services will be quicker and cheaper, and thus the local economy will be more competitive on this island and internationally. That has greater significance when we consider that 99% of our freight is transported by road. An improved, efficient and attractive public transport system will have a positive impact on the tourist industry; it will make the transportation of freight quicker and cheaper, reducing congestion and opening employment and services to all. It will also make a significant contribution to improving social inclusion, which is a key governmental priority. In many rural and urban areas, approximately 30% of families do not have access to private transportation. An effective public transportation system will bring benefits, if indirectly, to the Health Service. Northern Ireland has the highest rate of road accidents and fatalities anywhere in the United Kingdom. If more people travelled on public transport, with a corresponding decrease in car usage, that would have a positive impact which would, in turn, reduce pressures on the Health Service. Consequently, given that the regional transportation strategy and its parent strategy, the regional development strategy, affect every aspect of society, we must approach it without sectional interests in mind. We must take a holistic approach and consider how the strategy will benefit the whole of Northern Ireland. 2.00 pm I want to turn to some of the key elements of the regional transportation strategy. The consultation document outlines the funding that will be available in the four areas during the next 10 years. There is a pressing need for major investment in the regional strategic transport network. That is critical to ensuring that our major towns and cities are easily accessible while also allowing the efficient and timely transportation of people and freight. A major step towards that goal was the announcement by the then acting First Minister, Sir Reg Empey, on 24 September 2001 of an additional £40 million to be made available for the trans-European network route from Larne to Belfast and from Newry to Dundalk. That was welcome. However, it is important that the transport needs of other main areas throughout the region, such as the north-west, are appropriately addressed. Derry is a key economic hub with a catchment area stretching to Strabane, Limavady and, indeed, Donegal. It is important, therefore, that the main arterial routes from Derry to Dublin and from Derry to Belfast are appropriately funded and maintained. Efforts must be made to exploit available EU funding for cross-border infrastructure development. Greater efforts must be made to determine whether there can be greater co-operation between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland on the trans-European network. The potential for additional EU funding for infrastructure improvements appears to be underutilised in the regional transportation strategy. During the Committee for Regional Development's visit to Europe it met with several officials from the European Commission. After those meetings the Committee concluded that there is insufficient emphasis on getting access to EU funding. The amount of EU funding estimated for infrastructure in the regional transportation strategy is minimal, comprising only £10 million of the £950 million of potential extra funding sources. That should be compared with the Republic of Ireland's national development plan for 2000-06, which has estimated EU funding of 760 million euros - that is approximately £456 million. That represents 13% of the overall total expenditure on transportation. Northern Ireland's estimate for EU funding is derisory. Given the financial pressures facing Northern Ireland, I commend the Minister for Regional Development and the Department for embracing the challenge by setting up a division to examine alternative sources of funding. That is vital. The Minister is taking a leading role in trying to access alternative sources. The Committee for Regional Development looks forward to exploring the Department's findings on that. There is no doubt that raising funding from whatever source is a thorny issue, but an issue that must be accepted. The Committee's experience in Europe highlighted some of the novel ways in which finance is raised there. In France, for example, employers with more than 10 employees pay a levy that is ring-fenced for public transportation. In Germany there is a scheme whereby employers can contribute to meeting the cost of employees' public transport fares. Increasingly in the Republic of Ireland tolls are being used to pay for major road schemes. I am not necessarily advocating such methods, but I am highlighting the range of initiatives that should be explored fully. Throughout Europe, there is a tremendous emphasis on the public financing of publicly owned transportation outlets. There is much less emphasis on private money in continental Europe than in these islands. On examining the breakdown of anticipated expenditure over the next 10 years, a large percentage - 65% - is earmarked for the road network, with only 35% set aside for public transport. There is no doubt that the infrastructure has suffered from decades of underfunding. Sizeable investment is needed to bring many of the roads up to an acceptable standard. The Committee's visit to Europe has highlighted the benefit of investing heavily in public transport. A public transport system is dependent on a well-maintained transport infrastructure, but some road projects may be less important if there is a strong commitment to the reduction of car usage. That is a matter of traffic management that will, in turn, make a positive contribution to reducing bottlenecks and so reduce the need for such measures as road-widening schemes. It is important that public transport targets be integrated properly with road capital and structural maintenance programmes. Increasing the road network to deal with current traffic levels may relieve congestion in the short term, but it will also facilitate increased car usage. We will inevitably end up back where we started - with congested roads, increased travelling time and high levels of pollution. Public transport, particularly bus and rail transport, must be at the forefront of our plans in the development of sustainable transport that allows quicker journey times and easy and convenient access to services and employment. That is particularly crucial in rural areas. I note the inclusion in the regional transportation strategy of £31·5 million that has been earmarked for demand- responsive transport services for the more remote rural areas. That is to be warmly welcomed, and I hope that it will provide a new beginning for the provision of a quality public transport system in rural areas. Undeniably, the rail network is under pressure. Indeed, the system would surely have collapsed if £105 million had not been invested in it following the report of the railways task force. Under the circumstances, the Department is to be commended for setting as targets the retention of the Whitehead service and the Derry to Ballymena line, as well as seeking to increase patronage by over 50% over the next 10 years. That is an important and innovative approach. When the Committee recently visited the north-west, it experienced at first hand the poor state of the trains. It is self-evident that we cannot expect to increase rail patronage if the service is slow and of low quality - it defeats the very purpose of transportation. In the European cities that the Committee visited, a recurring theme was the high priority given to provision of an aesthetically attractive and clean public transportation system. Great emphasis was placed not only on buses but also on trams and light-rail systems, issues that we must explore. We will not attract people back to public transport unless it is seen as a viable alternative to the car. One has only to look at the success of the Belfast to Dublin Enterprise line to see what is possible. I am reassured that the consultation document has set out expected outcomes, which are supported by a list of specific targets. I do not want to delay the House by going through the whole list of outcomes and targets, but I will take the opportunity to highlight one or two. The regional transportation strategy states that it was considered too difficult to forecast future patronage on Ulsterbus and, therefore, no target has been set for increased patronage. However, targets have been set for Citybus and rail travel. Given Northern Ireland's limited rail network, Ulsterbus provides a valuable public service throughout Northern Ireland. We must, therefore, rise to the challenge and set clear and measurable targets for patronage on Ulsterbus. Such targets should not be viewed as stumbling blocks but as stepping stones to the provision of first-class public transportation system. If we are to succeed in developing a sustainable public transportation system, we must also challenge ourselves to reduce car usage. We must set ourselves clear goals. Figures based on the 1998 survey show that traffic volumes in Northern Ireland are increasing almost twice as fast as those in Great Britain. The reduction of car usage is not about reducing passenger travel but about providing acceptable alternatives to the car. The regional development strategy also emphasised that approach, stating that the focus should be on moving people and goods rather than vehicles. Although Northern Ireland's rail network is limited, it is nevertheless a fundamental and important aspect of public transport. Ninety-nine per cent of all freight is transported by road. In present circumstances that is unavoidable, but the issue must be addressed. One possible solution is to encourage greater use of the rail network to transport goods, and a clear target should be set. Substantial investment may be required, but we cannot shirk that challenge. The European Commission recently produced a consultative White Paper that placed considerable emphasis on encouraging a modal shift in the transportation of goods from road to rail. That White Paper contains many useful proposals, and it should be studied in depth by the Department for Regional Development. We all face many challenges. Nevertheless, our vision must be clear and sustained. Much of what is envisaged in the regional transportation strategy will require time and commitment. Many of the benefits will not be immediately tangible and will require all of us to remain focused on the long-term goals. We seek to create a major cultural shift in attitudes to car usage and public transport. That in itself will require time, and it places a burden on Government and on elected representatives at all levels in Northern Ireland to support and promote our vision. Understandably, people's approach will not change unless there is visible commitment from Government. On behalf of the Regional Development Committee, I welcome the public launch of the regional transportation strategy. I also welcome the commitment of the Minister and the Department to the vision outlined, and I look forward, with the Committee, to supporting the Department's efforts to turn that vision into reality. Mr Speaker: The Business Committee has set aside two and a half hours for this debate, and I can advise the House that a goodly number of Members wish to participate, so although there is no specific time limit on Members' speeches, I advise them to consider their Colleagues and not to stretch things too long. That is in respect of all Members, including the Member who has just spoken and the Member who is about to speak. The Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for Regional Development (Mr McFarland): I welcome the regional transportation strategy. It begins a process that we hope will properly organise our transport systems. It is a good start, and I thank the Minister and the Department for their close co-operation. The Committee has been involved since the beginning. It is a model of how these things should be done. I will speak briefly about several elements of the strategy, beginning with the key elements. The strategy divides itself essentially into the Belfast commuter system, the key transport corridors, local urban systems for towns and villages and the rural area. With regard to the Belfast commuter system, we must adopt the lessons learnt in Great Britain and Europe, as described by the Chairperson. In a very short time, roads in Northern Ireland will gum up, such is the rapid increase in car usage. With this strategy we have an opportunity to get our act together and produce a transport system that will begin to remove cars from our roads. 2.15 pm We should perhaps consider where we want to be in 10 years' time, as the strategy hopes to do. We should examine how we want our railways and buses to be in 10 years' time, particularly in the Belfast area. It is hoped that the flagship rail line from Bangor to Belfast will come on stream early next year. The rail is currently being re-laid. New trains to service that line are due to arrive early next year. It gives us an opportunity to see what can be done, because, as the Chairperson said, we will not persuade people to get out of their cars unless we produce a public transport system that they will want to travel on. The line to Bangor will give us an opportunity to test that and to determine what percentage of daily commuters from Bangor can be persuaded to use the line to travel to Belfast. The regional development strategy identifies two other development corridors; the first parallels the M1 from Lisburn, and the second parallels the M2 from Glengormley. Both corridors have rail systems. If complemented by the envisaged quality bus corridors serviced by fancy, comfortable, warm buses that people would wish to travel on, those would form additional key elements of the Belfast commuter system. The buses could be fitted with transponders to allow them to change traffic lights to ensure a straight run into town. A park and ride service, at a location such as the Saintfield Road, would allow people to park and be taken down a quality bus corridor to the centre of Belfast in 10 or 12 minutes. Those are important elements, and until they are in position, we are unlikely to persuade commuters to get out of their cars. Having put these transport systems into being, we may need to look at some radical issues in the city centre. On the Committee's visit to Europe, it saw that officials had drawn a ring around the centre of Strasbourg and ruled that - apart from resident parking - cars were not allowed. It was a dramatic measure that has had an amazing effect. An extremely smart transport system has been produced to go with it, and, as a result, the city has a much improved commuter system. Mr Paisley Jnr: I thank the Member for giving way. The Member will be aware that Strasbourg is a twelfth-century town with narrow streets, many of which are cobbled and considerably older than those in any other European state. Therefore, it made total sense to protect those environmental interests. Mr McFarland: That is correct; parts of Strasbourg are quite small. However, parts of it are extremely large, because those in power at that time wanted large streets on which to march their armies up and down. Therefore, some areas of Strasbourg lend themselves aptly to both cars and trams, but there are many smaller areas. Of course, Belfast has Pottinger's Entry, and a bus could not be driven along it. We should consider measures such as "no car zones" and congestion charging. If we had a fancy transport system, we could dissuade people from driving to the city centre by increasing parking charges so that it would be much cheaper to pay for public transport than for the daily car-parking fee. Key transport corridors are critical to the freight industry, and I welcome the proposed changes to the Westlink. We have two motorways; one comes from the direction of Londonderry, the other from Armagh/ Dungannon. They meet at the Westlink, and the entire thing gums up. How we did not spot that problem earlier, I do not know. I hope it will be sorted out, allowing freight and cars to be pushed through that area much quicker. Those motorways are key corridors, and commuter systems on them should free up the Westlink and allow for increased freight use. We must also consider - and my Colleagues from West Tyrone are familiar with this - that, if we build a hospital in either Enniskillen or Omagh, there must be roads between those places to allow medical vehicles to travel in a sensible manner. That should be examined in the context of key transport corridors. We will not get people in rural areas to stop using their cars. However, the rural transport initiatives, which involve the use of minibuses and smaller vehicles, are working well. We should consider co-ordinating our school buses. We have a crazy system whereby the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety runs buses for patients, the Department of Education runs school buses for part of the day, and the public transport system operates the rest of the bus service. Surely we can get our act together to co-ordinate those services and make more effective use of our transport system? Co-ordination is the main lesson that I learnt from Europe. The Minister is trying to introduce a cross- ticketing system, which would allow passengers to buy a ticket to use any available transport system. We have seen such a system in action in Europe and it is very impressive. People would not have to run between stations to buy different tickets; they would be able to buy one ticket to travel from A to B. I am worried about the lack of co-ordination and management of public transport. For example, when I lived in Donaghadee, my daughter travelled to school in Belfast every day. On her return journey, she arrived in Bangor by train two minutes after the scheduled departure of the bus to Donaghadee. At what level of management was that organised? The chap who organised the bus schedules operated from Newtownards, and the organiser of the train schedules operated from Bangor. They did not appear to speak to each other. We complained about the matter and it was finally sorted out. However, I am worried that such an attitude should be taken to public transport services. The managers of the transport system must change their approach. The Assembly hopes to co-ordinate the service and wants a higher degree of management and organisation to back up the new system. I will speak briefly about finance. As the Committee is aware, I was concerned that too much was expected of the Executive programme funds. In response, the Minister and the Department revised their approach slightly. I am not confident that the Executive programme funds will be available to support the service in the substantial amounts that the plan envisaged. It is good to see that the Minister and the Department are now examining other sources of funding to back the strategy. The strategy is important and it must be funded, but it would be dangerous to overemphasise the role of the Executive programme funds. Another lesson that was learnt from Europe was that we must keep public transport in public ownership. That may be difficult, but the lessons of privatisation are not positive. Having said that, in most European countries, those who use public transport systems pay for them. We are facing that fact here. The days when the public purse would cough up to cover the full cost of the system are probably gone. We must consider the need for increased contributions from the travelling public. We may need to examine such fairly avant-garde systems as - horror of horrors - toll roads. If we want a good public transport system, someone must pay for it. Assembly Members may soon need to get their heads around some nasty choices on how we will pay not only for transport but for water and sewerage services. We can have either bad services or good services, which cost money. I commend the regional transportation strategy - it is to be welcomed. Mr Hay: I welcome the document, and I concur with other Members' remarks. The Committee worked well with the Minister and his departmental officials on the document. I congratulate the officials who continually attended the meetings to brief the Committee on the document. This is a 10-year blueprint for transportation in Northern Ireland generally. Historically, Northern Ireland has suffered from a lack of investment in transportation infrastructure, and there is no doubt that our transportation strategy has been underfunded for decades. The Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for Regional Development, Mr McFarland, said that, at the moment, nothing would encourage people to use public transport instead of their cars. With this blueprint, I hope that we can examine alternative funding measures. Everyone in Northern Ireland appreciates that something desperately needs to be done about our public transport system. The Committee for Regional Development has experienced the train service from Belfast to Londonderry. Not long ago, Committee members travelled in a carriage that had missing windows; that is down to bad management of our public transport system. It was a fairly cold journey for some of the Committee members, but I told them that if they really want to experience public transport, they must use it and see it for themselves. There is something drastically wrong with a train service that takes well over two hours to travel from Londonderry to Belfast. I drive from Londonderry to Belfast and back practically every morning, and it takes me about two hours. If there were a good train service, I would use it rather than travel in my own car. This issue will be debated in the Chamber for months to come. I welcome not only the document that has been presented to the Assembly today but the timetable contained within it. In the past, many documents have been written about our transportation strategy in Northern Ireland. We have all received glossy brochures with no real action behind them so I therefore welcome the timetable for action contained in the document. Future funding for transport systems in Northern Ireland and the role that the public sector may play in that are important issues too. If we, as public representatives in the Assembly, are to make the document come alive in the coming months, hard decisions must be made concerning the funding of the strategy. We must examine seriously how we can get the funding to back the strategy. There is pressure on the Health Service and the education system, but without a proper transportation strategy Northern Ireland will suffer economically and socially in the long run. I wish to raise the issue of a separate transportation strategy for the north-west, which the Chairperson of the Committee for Regional Development mentioned briefly. Not so long ago our Committee had a meeting in Londonderry, and we seriously drove the point that it would be vitally important for the north-west of the Province that the Minister and his Department look - Mr Speaker: Order. I have to bring the Member's remarks to a close for the present, as it is now time for questions to the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. The debate will resume immediately after Question Time, which is likely to be 4 pm. If the Member wishes, he may complete his remarks at that stage, before we move on to the rest of the debate. 2.30 pm
Oral Answers to Questions
First Minister and Deputy First MinisterMr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that question 8, in the name of Mr McMenamin, has been withdrawn and will receive a written answer. Single Equality Bill 1. Mrs E Bell asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a statement on the introduction of the single equality Bill. 10. Ms Lewsley asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a statement on its plans for the single equality Bill. The Junior Minister (Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister) (Mr Nesbitt): Before answering questions, I want to formally advise the Assembly about the absence of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister from Question Time today. The Assembly will no doubt be aware that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister are in the United States of America at present. They addressed the World Economic Forum yesterday, and on Wednesday they will be opening the office for the Executive and the Assembly in Washington. Therefore, Mr Haughey and I are acting on behalf of the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister today. Mr Speaker, with your permission, I will group questions 1 and 10 together. We are committed to the introduction of a single equality Bill, which will harmonise anti-discrimination law, as far as practicable, and will extend into new categories, including age and sexual orientation. It will enable us to consider important developments in Britain and the Republic, and in European Union Directives. At their meeting on 18 January, the Executive considered how the work involved in bringing forward proposals for a single equality Bill could best be taken forward. This is a highly complex area of law, and it is essential that we get it right. We must properly implement the recent European Directives dealing with discrimination on the grounds of race, religion, belief, sexual orientation, age or disability. When we drew up our original timetable, the Framework Directive had not been agreed. We now know what that Directive is, and it raises complex issues, particularly in relation to age, which must be resolved. We must also take into account new Directives on gender discrimination currently being developed. In addition, we will be taking advice on those and other issues that have been raised. We have taken into account the consultation process, which requested from us further detailed consultation on our proposals and on specific issues. We are determined that this legislation will implement all our obligations and that it will be effective. A policy paper, setting out proposals for the Bill, will be published for consultation by the end of this year. In the meantime, we will meet our current EU commitments by introducing affirmative resolution regulations in the Assembly early next year. Also, early next year, we will consult separately on age discrimination and, following agreement, on the new Directive on sex discrimination. All this will ensure that the single equality Bill is taken forward in a way that takes account of emerging issues and, it is to be hoped, that provides good, workable law. Mrs E Bell: I thank the Minister for his answer. Notwithstanding his comments about the complexity of the issue, does the Minister agree that this Bill is very welcome as it will strengthen equality law in this country, and that any delay can only be detrimental? Mr Nesbitt: The aim is to have a simple law and to have equality. We wish for the best equality possible and equality of opportunity. That is what we are committed to. I recognise the concern about slowdown, but I repeat again that we are committed fully to the single equality Bill. We are having consultation about it, and more time is needed to consider specific areas. The people who are raising concerns about this matter should remember that the development of similar legislation in the Republic of Ireland took eight years. Ms Lewsley: Can the Minister give an assurance that the single equality Bill will not lead to a reduction in protection? Can he give the reasons for the revision of the timetable in the first place? Mr Nesbitt: I do not wish to repeat what I said only a moment ago about why we are taking time and why there is a revision because of EU Directives, but the Member appears to be concerned about other aspects of our performance. Let me give some examples. Great Britain has merely published a consultation document, in December 2001, on the implementation of EC Directives. In relation to age there are only general comments, although Great Britain intends to consult more fully on age discrimination this year. However, so far, many of the issues are unresolved. I turn to the neighbouring jurisdiction on this island, the Republic of Ireland. Recently it has concentrated on a review of the grounds of discrimination covered in the current Acts, but there has been no public consultation so far about ways to implement the EC Directives. Therefore, in comparison with Britain and the Republic of Ireland, and given the difficulties that I have explained, what the Executive and the Assembly are doing with respect to equality of opportunity and the equality Bill is the best way forward for everybody in Northern Ireland. Mr Watson: Will the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister address civil rights for members of the Loyal Orders - who are prevented from walking on certain roads - in the single equality Bill, as a matter of discrimination on the grounds of religion and belief, in keeping with the recent European Directives? Will the Assembly be given time to debate the Directive that deals with religion and belief? Mr Nesbitt: The Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister is aware of inter-community tensions in Northern Ireland, which manifest themselves geographically in the areas that have been mentioned and, typically, through a process of parading. We want to see one community in Northern Ireland, where all diversities are celebrated in peace, harmony and understanding of each other. We support the local dialogue that is taking place in those key areas to resolve the disputes and division in our society. The issue of parading, in Drumcree or on the Garvaghy Road, for example, is a matter for the Northern Ireland Office and the Parades Commission. As regards discussing and debating, the Assembly will, of course, debate those aspects of the equality Bill as well as aspects of employment discrimination, goods, facilities and services through the normal legislative process. There will be ample time for debate on those issues during that process. Mr Davis: What priority will be given to disability rights, and what role will be adopted to support and encourage disabled people in 2003, the European year of people with disabilities? Mr Nesbitt: The Executive will make their response to the recommendations of the Disability Rights Task Force, and that will be reflected in the single equality Bill - for example, we hope to extend the definition to include HIV and cancer, and we will ensure that that work is taken forward. We generally have a responsibility for the Disability Rights Task Force, and we are examining the recommendations that were issued for consultation last year. This year we are committed to improving civil rights for disabled people. In order to promote social inclusion, we will develop a strategy to implement the recommendations of the Disability Rights Task Force. We are discussing the arrangements for 2003 - the European year of people with disabilities - with colleagues in Britain, and we will consider how best to take that forward in Northern Ireland when more information is available. Executive Meeting: Date and Agenda 2. Mr Paisley Jnr asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to outline (a) the date of the next Executive meeting; and (b) the issues on the agenda. The Junior Minister (Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister) (Mr Haughey): It is regrettable that a question such as this must come forward from a party involved in the Administration. It derives from the peculiar attitude that that party takes to attendance at Executive meetings. The next meeting of the Executive is scheduled to take place on Thursday 14 February. It is not the policy of the Administration to disclose in advance what issues will be raised at this or any other Executive meeting. Mr Paisley Jnr: Can the junior Minister confirm whether the Executive have discussed or intend to discuss the contents of the Chief Constable's response to the Police Ombudsman's report into Omagh? Can he shed some light on the Deputy First Minister's weekend comments that he wants an outside investigator put in overall charge of this inquiry? Is that an Executive view? Is that the view of the Deputy First Minister, as opposed to the First Minister, or is that a party view? Does the junior Minister agree that the divisive comments by the Deputy First Minister at the weekend will not only further divide the board but are regarded as "Durkan's destruction plan" to defy consensus on that board? Mr Haughey: I can neither confirm nor deny that the Executive have discussed these matters. I do not attend Executive meetings, and I can make no comment on Mr Paisley Jnr's other contentious remarks. Mr B Bell: Following the judgement of Mr Justice Coghlin, can the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister confirm that it remains in order to withhold Executive papers uncovering and revealing what is going on in the Executive Committee from DUP Ministers? Mr Haughey: I can confirm that the judgement of Mr Justice Coghlin makes it clear that the withholding of Executive papers from DUP Ministers is a reasonable response to the announced DUP policy of taking up ministerial office to enable it to uncover and reveal what is going on at the heart of Government. The declaration by the court in this instance related only to the withholding of a specific paper. The paper in question was issued to the DUP Ministers on Monday, 12 February 2001. Mr Maskey: Further to the original question, given the obvious interest from several Members of the DUP in the Executive's agenda, can the junior Minister advise the House if at any time, as other Executive Ministers do, the DUP Ministers or their advisers ever communicate their position or view on any matter in respect of the Executive's agenda, for example, in writing or by any other method of communication? Mr Haughey: I am not aware of any such communications. Grant Award Fraud 3. Mr Armstrong asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister what action has been taken to eradicate fraud undertaken by unrepresentative "cross-community groups" claiming grant awards. Mr Nesbitt: The vast majority of community relations funding is awarded to cross-community groups and projects. Single identity groups may be funded where the aim is to promote cross-community interaction and mutual respect. Grants are awarded where projects meet the eligibility criteria. The assessment process includes a range of checks: confirmation that the group is formally constituted; provision of a list of names of its board or management committee; and an examination of its financial position. All projects receiving funding are subject to regular monitoring to check on progress and to ensure that the agreed aims and objectives are being met. In addition, it is a standard condition of grant that any documents, information or papers relating to a project must be provided on request and that any request to inspect or carry out audits is facilitated. Information provided on the application forms for grants and interim funding claims may also be made available to other Departments and agencies for the purposes of preventing and detecting crime. Applicants are made aware of that before accepting any offer of grant. 2.45 pm Mr Armstrong: Does the Minister agree that a problem could arise because a number of community groups that are not cross-community structured could benefit from cross-community funding? Within the overall remit of the community relations based funding, is the Minister currently investigating proceedings arising from the detection of fraudulent applications? Is any action being pursued to return funding sent out in error? Mr Nesbitt: While it would be very serious if any group obtained funds on the basis of a deliberate misrepresentation, the availability of community relations funding is not confined to cross-community groups. In certain circumstances, funding may be provided to single-identity groups. Because of particular tensions and issues, those groups are working in a community where it may be necessary to prepare the ground for subsequent meaningful dialogue and interaction between the communities. Therefore the guiding principle is that the applicants, whether they are cross-community or single identity, must be able to demonstrate how their project can and will contribute to improving community relations. The key aim is to improve community relations and does not preclude the funding of a single group. However, the guiding principle must be clear. There are currently no investigations proceeding on recovery of fraudulent applications. Mr Dallat: Does the Minister agree that the vast majority of community groups have, on a purely voluntary basis, played a vital role in the process of cross- community bridge building? Can he assure the House that he will continue to encourage the work of such groups, despite the disgraceful actions of the very few who commit fraud? Mr Nesbitt: Yes, I happily endorse what the Member has said. Work has been done, and I have no doubt it will continue to be done, at a community level in Northern Ireland. Too often those groups - and individuals - are not recognised for their work, and we commend that work. We recognise that as we in the Assembly are trying to work better together, those in the community will also work better together. We must recognise the need to do this, and I pay tribute to the work being done by community groups. Visit to South Antrim 4. Mr Ford asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister if the First Minister and Deputy First Minister have any plans to visit South Antrim. Mr Haughey: There are currently no plans for the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a joint visit to South Antrim in the near future. Mr Ford: It is interesting to see that the Ministers can be brief on some responses. Since there are no plans to visit South Antrim, can the Minister explain why the legislative programme seems to have disappeared from sight, and why so few targets in this year's Programme for Government have been met? Ten months into the year, only about a quarter of the targets have been achieved. Can he explain to the Assembly and to my constituents in South Antrim how he proposes to improve matters in the future? Mr Haughey: Do you propose to allow that question, Mr Speaker? Mr Speaker: There seems to be time to answer it, if there is a wish. Mr Haughey: There is plenty of time to answer it, Mr Speaker. I raise a question over the very tenuous connection between that supplementary question and the original question. However, that is a matter within your province. Mr Speaker: I assume that the question from the Member is that if the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister do not have time to visit South Antrim, it is because there are preparations in the other areas which the Member has raised. Mr Haughey: I am well aware that that was what he was saying. It is my view, and that of the Members of the Administration, that the criticism which has arisen in the last couple of weeks about the volume of legislation in the Assembly is very unfair and does not give credit to the Executive and the Assembly for the huge volume of work that has been undertaken. A look at the Programme for Government, the Budgets, the work of the Committees and all of the other tasks that have been undertaken will show that the volume of work that has been put through the Assembly is very creditable indeed. Since devolution, 23 Bills have been enacted, touching on very important aspects of everyday life in Northern Ireland. We have had complex pieces of legislation dealing with ground rents, child support and pensions. That record compares very well with the Scottish Parliament, which, in the equivalent period, has passed 29 pieces of legislation, and which has had much less uncertainty and many fewer alarms and excursions to deal with than the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister have had here. On 27 September 2001, Sir Reg Empey and Séamus Mallon wrote to Members to inform them of the legislative programme for the 2001-02 session. To date, one Bill has received Royal Assent and two are awaiting it. A further two Bills have completed, or are about to complete, Committee Stage. It had been hoped that more Bills would have been introduced into the Assembly by this stage of the session. Ministers are examining what can be done to expedite matters. However, a great deal of pre-introduction work has already been carried out, particularly in Committees, on the development of legislation for the programme. As a result of that, we anticipate that five new Bills will be introduced before the end of the month. There are other points that need to be made in this regard. First of all, when comparing this Assembly with the Scottish Parliament or the Executive with the Scottish Executive, it should be noted that, in our case, the inter-party Government is based on statute. In Scotland, it is based on a voluntary coalition of the participating parties. A voluntary coalition involves the preparation of an agreed programme for government beforehand. In our circumstances, the preparation of a Programme for Government had to be agreed after the appointment of the Executive. Under section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, consultation is required of the Executive in relation to all matters that come before the House by way of proposals for legislation. Consultation has been much more extensive here than is normally the case, where a good deal of the debate and discussion of Bills takes place in the House. We have had a great deal of that through our consultation process, and through Committee work, before Bills have come to the House. In the current session, a Bill dealing with social security fraud has been enacted. Two Bills dealing with industrial development and the restructuring of IDB and LEDU, and a Bill on game preservation, have all passed their Final Stage. Two more are completing their Committee Stages. I submit to the House that the record of this Assembly and the Executive in terms of business undertaken is very creditable indeed. Mr Speaker: I do not think that the Member or the House can complain that the Minister avoided the question. Mr J Wilson: My question is a little more focused on the constituency of South Antrim. Will the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister consider holding a future meeting of the British-Irish Council in what is undoubtedly the most attractive of all constituencies in the United Kingdom, thus opening to a wider audience a perspective of South Antrim likely to assist in attracting new commercial investment and more tourist visitors? Mr Haughey: I will make the views of the hon Member known to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister and, through them, to the Executive. However, I cannot make any commitment on behalf of the Executive at this time. |