Northern Ireland Assembly
Monday 26 November 2001 (continued)
|
Mr Speaker: I point out to the House that if amendment No 5 falls, amendments No 6 and No 7 also fall. Amendment No 5 proposed: In page 1, line 11, at end insert - "(2A) In section 7, subsection (2) shall be omitted." - [Mr Ford.] Question put, That the amendment be made. The Assembly divided: Ayes 29; Noes 33. Ayes Mr Attwood, Mrs E Bell, Mr Berry, Mr Byrne, Mr Carrick, Mr Clyde, Mrs Courtney, Mr Dallat, Mr Dodds, Mr A Doherty, Mr Fee, Mr Ford, Mr Gallagher, Mr Gibson, Ms Hanna, Mr Hay, Mr Hilditch, Mr R Hutchinson, Mr Maginness, Mr McCarthy, Rev Dr William McCrea, Mr Morrow, Mr Paisley Jnr, Mr Poots, Mr M Robinson, Mr Shannon, Mr Tierney, Mr Watson, Mr Wells. Noes Mr Beggs, Mr B Bell, Dr Birnie, Mr Cobain, Rev Robert Coulter, Mr Dalton, Mr Davis, Ms de Brún, Mr Foster, Ms Gildernew, Sir John Gorman, Mr Hussey, Mr J Kelly, Mr Kennedy, Lord Kilclooney, Mr Leslie, Mr Maskey, Mr McClarty, Mr McElduff, Mr McFarland, Mr McHugh, Mr McLaughlin, Mr McMenamin, Mr McNamee, Mr Molloy, Mr C Murphy, Mr M Murphy, Mrs Nelis, Dr O'Hagan, Mr ONeill, Mr Savage, Mr Trimble, Mr J Wilson. Question accordingly negatived. Amendment No 6 not moved. Amendment No 7 not moved. 2.00 pm Amendment No 8 proposed: In page 1, line 19, at end insert- '(3B) In section 7D, for subsection (4) there shall be substituted - "(4) It shall not be lawful for any person to take a hare alive by trap or net for the purpose of coursing or hunting."'- [Mr Ford.] Question put, That the amendment be made. The Assembly divided: Ayes 21; Noes 33. Ayes Mrs E Bell, Mr Berry, Mr Byrne, Mr Carrick, Mr Clyde, Mr Dallat, Mr Dodds, Mr A Doherty, Mr Ford, Mr Gibson, Ms Hanna, Mr Hilditch, Mr R Hutchinson, Mr Maginness, Mr McCarthy, Rev Dr William McCrea, Mr Morrow, Mr M Robinson, Mr Tierney, Mr Watson, Mr Wells. Noes Mr B Bell, Rev Robert Coulter, Mrs Courtney, Mr Dalton, Mr Davis, Ms de Brún, Mr Fee, Mr Foster, Mr Gallagher, Ms Gildernew, Sir John Gorman, Mr Hamilton, Mr J Kelly, Mr Kennedy, Lord Kilclooney, Mr Leslie, Ms Lewsley, Mr Maskey, Mr McClarty, Mr McElduff, Mr McFarland, Mr McHugh, Mr McLaughlin, Mr McMenamin, Mr McNamee, Mr Molloy, Mr C Murphy, Mr M Murphy, Mrs Nelis, Dr O'Hagan, Mr ONeill, Mr Savage, Mr J Wilson. Question accordingly negatived. Mr Speaker: Members may not be aware that if tellers are not provided by one side or the other, the side that does not produce tellers loses the vote without a count. I draw that to the attention of the House. Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 2 (Shooting of rabbits on agricultural land) Mr Foster: I beg to move amendment No 9: In page 2, line 1, leave out clause 2 and insert 'Protection of game and rabbits 2.- (1) For section 7A of the 1928 Act there shall be substituted- "Protection of game and rabbits 7A-(1) Any person who kills, takes or destroys any game-
(2) Any person who-
(3) Subsection (2) does not apply in relation to the killing, taking or destroying of any rabbit in pursuance of any power conferred by or under-
(4) For the purposes of subsection (2) a person is an authorised person in relation to any land if he is, or is authorised by-
(2) In section 9 of the Forestry Act (Northern Ireland) 1953 (c.2) (right of occupier to kill rabbits, hares or deer damaging trees) in subsections (1) and (2) the word "rabbits,", wherever it occurs, shall be omitted. (3) In section 10 of that Act (prevention of damage caused by rabbits, etc.) subsection (3) shall be omitted. (4) In the Ground Game Act 1880 (c.47) (right of occupier to kill and take hares and rabbits) -
(5) In the Miscellaneous Transferred Excise Duties Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 (c. 11) -
(6) The statutory provisions set out in the Schedule are repealed to the extent specified in the second column of the Schedule.' I propose the amendment as a result of representations made to me by the British Association for Shooting and Conservation and the Countryside Alliance in Northern Ireland to control pest rabbits. The amendment will regularise current practice, which has existed for some time. During its consideration of the Bill, the Committee for the Environment was made aware of the amendment, and it is content with it. I am grateful for its support. The amendment will relax the existing controls on where and when rabbits can be shot, allowing for pest rabbits to be shot on any land at any time. However, it is subject to the requirement that the person must hold a valid gun licence and be legally authorised to shoot rabbits on the land in question. Rabbits are defined as ground game for the purposes of the Ground Game Acts, the purpose of which is to allow farmers to control rabbits that damage their crops, without requiring a game licence. It will remain an offence to kill, take or destroy any game on a Sunday or at night or to take game or rabbits by cruel methods, as stipulated in article 12 of the Wildlife (Northern Ireland) Order 1985. The amendment necessitates several consequential amendments to related legislation. It retains the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development's existing rights to allow duly authorised departmental officials, including vets, to kill, take for veterinary testing or destroy any rabbit, under the Diseases of Animals (Northern Ireland) Order 1981, in the event of a risk of rabbits transmitting disease to livestock. It protects the existing rights of the Forest Service to prevent damage as a result of infestation in the vicinity of tree-planted land, after prior notice to the owner-occupier. The provisions of amendment No 11 are consequential to amendment No 9 and necessitate the repeal of section 1(1)(a),(b), and (c), section 1(3) and section 10 of the Ground Game Act 1880. The amendment will also repeal in full the provisions of the Ground Game (Amendment) Act 1906, and I have detailed the reasons for that. Amendment No 12 takes account of the fact that the previous amendments require a change in the long title of the Bill. 2.15 pm Rev Dr William McCrea: I support the Minister's proposed amendment to clause 2 and the associated amendments to the repeals schedule and long title. The amendments will bring the Bill into line with current practice and with the Wildlife (Northern Ireland) Order 1985. It will also allow for effective pest control on land types that are not covered by current legislation. The proposed amendment was put forward as a result of representations made to the Committee by the British Association for Shooting and Conservation, with support from the Countryside Alliance in Northern Ireland. Representatives from those organisations agreed the terms of the Minister's amendments on the protection of game and rabbits, the repeals schedule and the long title. The Committee for the Environment commends the amendments to the House. Mr J Wilson: I support the amendment. I compliment the Committee for the Environment on its support for the amendment - it is simply common sense. The amendments bring the regulations into line with what is happening in other parts of the United Kingdom and improve a system that has been outdated for far too long. Mr Foster: I have listened with interest to both Members' comments, which have been informative and supportive. I am grateful to the Committee for the Environment for its support and advice on the amendments, and on the Bill as a whole, at Committee Stage. I am satisfied that there are no conservation objections to the relaxation of the restriction. The change will regularise current practice. Amendment agreed to. Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill. New schedule Amendment No 10 not moved. Amendment No 11 made: After clause 4, insert -: 'SCHEDULE
- [The Minister of the Environment.] New schedule agreed to. Long Title Amendment No 12 made: In the long title, at the end insert - 'and to amend the law relating to the killing, taking or destroying of rabbits and hares.' - [The Minister of the Environment.] Long title, as amended, agreed to. Mr Speaker: That concludes the Consideration Stage of the Bill. The Bill now stands referred to the Speaker. Committee Business: Salary of Comptroller and Auditor General
The Chairperson of the Audit Committee (Mr Dallat): I beg to move That the annual salary of the Comptroller and Auditor General (NI) shall be increased to £105,893 with effect from 26 November 2001. (Mr Deputy Speaker [Sir John Gorman] in the Chair) Following devolution of power to the Assembly, the salary of the Comptroller and Auditor General is determined in accordance with the provisions of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. These provisions provide that the salary payable to the Comptroller and Auditor General (NI) shall be determined by, or in pursuance of, a resolution of the Assembly and that the Assembly does not have power to reduce the salary payable to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Following correspondence with the Minister of Finance and Personnel, the Audit Committee agreed that until an agreed procedure was put in place for determining the salary of the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland with the appropriate level of scrutiny, the Audit Committee would carry out such functions in relation to its determination that it considered necessary. Over the past months, the Committee has examined the options for putting in place a formal procedure for doing so and will put forward proposals for approval by the Assembly in due course. Under present arrangements, the annual pay award for the Comptroller and Auditor General is calculated using a formula linked to the judiciary group 5 spot rate and the salary payable to permanent secretaries of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. That reflects an agreement between the Department of Finance and Personnel and the Public Accounts Commission at Westminster prior to devolution. That agreement stipulated that the salary of the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland should be progressed along a scale, over a five-year period, that would align it with the judiciary group 5 by the time he reached 60. However, to prevent the C & AG's salary from overtaking immediately that of a permanent secretary, a mechanism was incorporated into the formula to ensure that the Comptroller and Auditor General's salary remained within 5% of that of a permanent secretary. The Audit Committee agreed that that arrangement should remain in place until proper procedures were in place, whereupon the formula could be reviewed. At its meeting on 12 November, the Audit Committee considered the advice of the Department of Finance and Personnel for this year's pay award, which was due to the Comptroller and Auditor General from 1 April. The Committee agreed with the Department's recommendation that the salary should be raised to £105,893 and that the Minister of Finance and Personnel may pay arrears owing to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Question put and agreed to. Resolved: That the annual salary of the Comptroller and Auditor General (NI) shall be increased to £105,893 with effect from 26 November 2001. The sitting was suspended at 2.24 pm and resumed at 2.30 pm. On resuming (Mr Speaker in the Chair) - 2.30 pm Oral Answers
First Minister and Deputy First MinisterMr Speaker: The first question, in the name of Mr Armstrong, has been withdrawn. Equality Proofing 2. Mr C Murphy asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to outline what input the Public Appointments Unit has in respect of equality proofing appointments to public bodies. The First Minister (Mr Trimble): Public appointments procedures are regulated and monitored by the independent Commissioner for Public Appointments for Northern Ireland. All public appointments which fall under her remit are governed by the overriding principle of selection based on merit. Candidates recommended to Ministers for consideration have gone through a rigorous selection process and independent scrutiny to ensure compliance with the Commissioner's guidelines. To ensure fairness and equity, all Departments - including my own - apply the Commissioner's procedures to all public appointments, including those outside the Commissioner's remit, although adherence to those principles is a matter for the appointing Minister. The central appointments unit in the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister publishes an annual report that gives details of all appointments. It also analyses them with regard to gender, age, disability, ethnic and community background and political activity. Mr C Murphy: Does the First Minister accept that there is a general perception that the public appointments system as practiced under direct rule had many imbalances in regard of gender, geographical representation and political representation? It is vital for the new Administration to be seen to tackle that head-on in order to ensure that the highest standard of equality proofing is vigorously applied to all public appointments. Can he assure us that that will take place? Is it the policy of the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister? The First Minister: I understand the Member's point and agree with a number of his criticisms of appointments made under direct rule. We too felt that, on many occasions, direct rule appointments were lacking in some respect. However, one should take account of the fact that completely new procedures with regard to public appointments have been introduced in the last few years, in particular the creation of the post of Commissioner for Public Appointments and the procedures and guidelines that she has established. Those procedures are monitored by the central appointments unit, and I recommend that the Member obtains copies of its reports. The last report was produced in March 2001, and the Member will see the analysis that was conducted. The situation may not be perfect from his point of view, but one should always bear in mind that when appointments are made on merit, they can only be made on merit based on those who apply. All of us want to see a greater range of applicants, because that might cure some lingering problems. Mr Hamilton: Can the First Minister comment on the anomalies evident in appointments to public bodies such as the Parades Commission? The First Minister: I am happy to say that that is not a responsibility of mine, or of the devolved Administration. Appointments to the Parades Commission are made by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and it is a matter entirely for him. I cannot possibly comment. Mr S Wilson: Perhaps the First Minister would care to comment on some of the appointments for which he is responsible, such as the cross-border institutions to which well-known members of his party who support his arguments within the party have been appointed - for example, Mr Kerr and Mr Laird. More recently, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has appointed well-known members of the "Yes" camp in Ulster Unionism, whereas those who are against the agreement were not appointed. Mr Speaker: Can the Member come to his question? Mr S Wilson: Will the First Minister demonstrate to the House where he has shown equality in the appointments for which he has been responsible? The First Minister: I thank the Member for making clear the distinction between appointments to the Human Rights Commission, which are a matter for the Secretary of State, and appointments to the North/South bodies for which I will accept a certain responsibility. The Member has criticised those appointments. Let me assure him that we would be delighted to appoint members of the Democratic Unionist Party, so if he, or any of his Colleagues, wish to secure appointment to these bodies, let us know. We will see what we can do to facilitate that. Executive Meetings 3. Mr Davis asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to state what measures are being taken to ensure regular and full attendance by all Ministers at Executive meetings. The Deputy First Minister (Mr Durkan): Under the Belfast Agreement, and under section 18(8) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, a Minister shall not take up office until he or she has affirmed the terms of the Pledge of Office. The Minister for Regional Development and the Minister for Social Development have taken a pledge to fulfil the duties of their ministerial offices. Although they do not attend meetings of the Executive in person, DUP Ministers have complied with the requirements of the ministerial code in seeking the agreement of the Executive on their proposals for the Programme for Government, budgets, legislation and major policy areas that impact on other departmental programmes. They comment in writing on papers before the Executive and have permitted their senior officials to make presentations on policy areas that concern the Executive. Despite the non-attendance of these Ministers at Executive meetings, the Executive have ensured that important strategic and policy decisions are taken to enable the two Departments to function effectively so that the people of Northern Ireland are not disadvantaged by their non-attendance. Mr Davis: Is the Deputy First Minister saying that the DUP policy is a sham and has no real effect on the running of the Executive? The Deputy First Minister: It would not be for me to take issue with the Member's description. These Ministers engage in a kind of correspondence-course relationship in that they afford their views on various issues to the Executive in writing and, of course, they bring forward departmental proposals to the Executive for consideration. The Executive have also been able to address a number of issues that affect the areas of these Departments', consistent with their commitments in the Programme for Government. That has been particularly so in the area of infrastructure, for instance, and also in free transport for the elderly. Mr McElduff: Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Will the Deputy First Minister agree that the continued absence of Peter Robinson, the Minister for Regional Development, for example, from Executive meetings has a detrimental effect on the process of bidding for funds and priority in the Executive? An example would be the case for the improved roads infrastructure west of the Bann that is being hampered by Mr Robinson's continued absence. The Deputy First Minister: Those Ministers who do not attend the Executive and who are happy to trust the rest of us with decisions that affect their Departments, and their Department's programmes, are obviously showing that they have a huge degree of confidence in the Executive and in the other Ministers. The Executive, in taking decisions on financial allocations, have considered fully the needs of all Departments, including the Department for Regional Development, not least concerning the roads programme. We have been able to reflect priority and need in those areas. However, by absenting themselves from the Executive, Ministers are obviously missing out on the key strategic discussions that inform final Executive thinking on some of these issues. The Executive are not punishing or penalising any Department that is not represented at Executive meetings, but, of course, Ministers would be able to make a fuller contribution and would be able to make a more rounded presentation of their Departments' needs if they properly attended. Mr McCarthy: Mr McElduff has got in just before me, but I will ask my question anyway. Mr McElduff mentioned the area west of the Bann; I will mention the area east of the Bann as regards funding for roads. I also want to raise the point about the Minister for Social Development and the effect on funding for housing east of the Bann. The Deputy First Minister: I refer the Member to my earlier answer. The Executive have shown sensitivity in the way in which they have dealt with budgets, monitoring rounds and Executive programme funds. They recognise the needs of programmes in every Department, including those whose Ministers do not attend Executive meetings. I note the Member's emphasis of various spending programmes. Last week he told us that there was only one priority to be considered, however that priority was not among those that he mentioned. North Belfast 4. Mr Cobain asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a statement with regard to the initiatives being undertaken by the Executive's liaison officer in north Belfast. The First Minister: I am sure that all Members will join me in welcoming the suspension of the protest at Holy Cross Primary School and the beginning of dialogue between the communities in Ardoyne and upper Ardoyne. In our discussions last week with representatives of those communities we made it clear that we wanted the protest to end, and on a basis that would ensure that it would not resume. Our Department's senior liaison officer has contributed significantly to the resolution, through contact with local elected and community representatives, church leaders and representatives of statutory and voluntary agencies. There is still much work to be done. After several recent meetings with elected and community representatives, the Deputy First Minister and I outlined a series of measures for tackling social, economic and community issues in the area. Those measures will quickly begin to address the long-standing problems of both communities. It is equally important that the process of dialogue between the two communities continue. Mutual trust and confidence must be established so that the communities can engage to resolve the issues that divide them and the problems that they share. Mr Cobain: I congratulate the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister on their Department's efforts to bring the Ardoyne dispute to a satisfactory conclusion. In the event of a lasting community capacity-building exercise, will they guarantee that their Department will maintain a high level of involvement in north Belfast? The First Minister: I thank the Member for his comments. I congratulate him, the other MLAs, and the MP for the area, for the constructive role that they played. The proposals that we put to the parties on Friday were contained in a letter, a copy of which has been placed in the Library. The Member will see from that letter that we are working on the development of a community action project to strengthen community development capacity in the area. That project is focused on the whole North Belfast constituency. We hope to make rapid progress on the project and that it will result in permanent improvements by addressing a range of socio-economic interests in North Belfast. I am sure that reminders from the Member and his Assembly Colleagues will ensure that the issue remains a priority. Mr A Maginness: I also congratulate the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister on their political initiative; it led to the breakdown of the gridlock that characterised the situation at Holy Cross Primary School. I pay tribute to the Police Service of Northern Ireland for its work to normalise the situation in Ardoyne. What plans do the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister have to develop cross-community dialogue and to create a cross-community forum? Are there plans to develop community policing, which would create stability and security in that neighbourhood? The First Minister: I agree with the Member's comments, and I endorse the congratulations that he paid to the police on their handling of the issue during the last three months. The police have dealt with an extremely difficult situation, and they have shown their willingness to respond to the change in climate and to the developments of the weekend. The police intend to adopt a community approach in the neighbourhood and have a unit dedicated to that. Precisely when and how it is deployed is an operational matter, but I believe the police intend to deploy it as soon as possible. I welcome the dialogue that took place. A forum is a natural means of enabling that to proceed, and the parties to the dialogue will control the extent to which it develops. Judging from comments made to the Deputy First Minister and me last week, there is a willingness to develop this in such a way that the problem does not recur. 2.45 pm Gender Inequality 5. Mr Ford asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a statement on implementing policies to tackle gender inequality. The Deputy First Minister: In the Programme for Government we are committed to bringing forward, consulting on and implementing a cross-departmental gender equality policy. This will complement and strengthen the work already being done in line with the statutory duty under section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. Officials are having pre-consultation interviews with key community and voluntary groups to find out what affects those groups and what they would like to see included. Mr Ford: The Minister will agree that it is important to lead by example. Can he tell the House how many women and how many men are employed as special advisers to the First Minister and himself? The Deputy First Minister: As far as I know, three special advisers work for the First Minister, who are all male, and as Deputy First Minister I have three special advisers, who are all male. Further decisions will be taken in due course when I cease to be Minister of Finance and Personnel. Mr Speaker: Question 6, in the name of Mr McMenamin, has been withdrawn. Commissioner for Children 7. Ms Hanna asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a statement on the consultation for a commissioner for children. The Deputy First Minister: The consultation period ended on 8 November, and 286 responses were received from a variety of sources, including children and young people. The responses are being analysed carefully, and a summary of the views will be available on the Department's web site in due course. We aim to finalise proposals as quickly as possible and hope to bring a Bill before the Assembly in early January, a little later than intended, so the commissioner may be appointed by June 2002. British-Irish Council 8. Mr Gallagher asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a statement on the next proposed plenary meeting of the British-Irish Council. The First Minister: The next plenary meeting of the British-Irish Council is scheduled to take place on 30 November 2001. The main focus for discussion will be a paper on future co-operation on drugs, on which the Irish Government have agreed to take the lead. In accordance with section 52, subsection 6 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, a report of the meeting will be made to the Assembly as soon as reasonably practicable afterwards. Mr Gallagher: Does the First Minister think it ironic that the British are the lead Administration in the British- Irish Council on the environment? Will he assure the Assembly that the mixed oxide fuel plant at Sellafield will be raised at this week's meeting? The First Minister: The Member is correct. At the first ministerial meeting of the British-Irish Council on 2 October it was agreed that the environment would be one of the initial areas for discussion. Within that there is the matter of radioactive waste from Sellafield. The possible impact of climate change and waste management is also included. Initial work on the areas is being taken forward for discussion by officials at future meetings of Environment Ministers. I would be very surprised if, at those meetings, that issue did not arise and if the point that the Member raised did not arise. It is hoped that those matters will be considered in a cool, calm atmosphere and not dealt with strictly on their environmental merits. |