Oral Answers to Questions

Education

1.

asked the Minister of Education to detail those areas which are unable to be advanced as a result of not holding a North/South Ministerial Council in education sectoral format.

(AQO 1303/00)

4.

asked the Minister of Education to list those areas which have not progressed as a consequence of his non-attendance at a North/South Ministerial Council meeting in education sectoral format.

(AQO 1308/00)

With your permission, a LeasCheann Comhairle, I will take questions 1 and 4 together.

In my statement on 5 June 2000, reporting on the inaugural meeting of the education sectoral Council meeting that took place on 3 February 2000, I advised the Assembly that several working groups were established to consider a series of important issues in a number of areas. A special educational needs provision working group has been focusing primarily on autism and dyslexia.

Three working groups were set up to consider several important issues relating to educational underachievement. One of those groups has been looking at ways of encouraging pupil attendance at school and their retention in education. The second group has been looking at good practice in the improvement of literacy and numeracy skills in young people, and the third has focused on child protection issues. A working group was also established to look at issues that might adversely affect teacher mobility on the island of Ireland.

The education sectoral Council also commissioned an independent study to evaluate school, youth and teacher exchanges. All of those working groups were to have reported formally to an education sectoral meeting with their proposals on the priorities they had identified, the measures that might be put in place and projected time frames for progressing particular tasks. That meeting was scheduled for last autumn. However, I regret that there has not been an education sectoral meeting of the Council since 3 July 2000. Consequently it has not been possible to receive and consider reports on the work of each of the working groups, take decisions on their recommendations or authorise further actions in those important areas.

Go raibh maith agat, Madam Deputy Speaker. Paragraph 13 of strand two of the Good Friday Agreement states that the North/South Ministerial Council and the Assembly are mutually dependent and that one cannot successfully function without the other. Does the Minister agree that the First Minister's continuing obstruction of the workings of the North/South Council in sectoral or plenary format has serious implications for the agreement?

I share the Member's concern. Under the terms of the agreement, the Assembly and the North/South Ministerial Council are mutually interdependent, and one

The obstruction of North/South Council meetings prevents me from fulfilling my responsibilities as a member of that Council. As a result, the potential for co-operation on issues affecting the education of all of the children of the island of Ireland is not being realised. The fracture of the institutions agreed on Good Friday needs to be repaired urgently.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Does the Minister agree that the British Secretary of State, Dr John Reid, has the power and responsibility to direct the First Minister to make the appropriate nominations to the North/South Ministerial Council?

I understand that the British Secretary of State has the power to intervene in that way, and I have made that point to him repeatedly.

The issue is the North/South education meetings that have not been sanctioned. Many issues arise in my constituency regularly that have a North/ South aspect, and it is regrettable that the meetings are not taking place. Nevertheless, it is important that arrangements continue to be made for meetings of the North/South Ministerial Council. Has the Minister instructed his staff to continue to make the arrangements for North/South meetings?

I have instructed my officials to proceed with making the arrangements for North/South meetings. It is a difficult situation for me as Minister of Education, because it is vital that every single aspect of the agreement is implemented, and my duties and responsibilities centre on the stewardship of the Department of Education.

I have attended meetings of the North/South Ministerial Council and sectoral meetings on education, and I have struck up a good relationship with the Dublin Minister for Education and Science, Dr Michael Woods TD. There is a will on the part of the two Administrations to press forward on all fronts and deal with important educational matters that affect all children in Fermanagh and throughout the island of Ireland.

In view of the low standards in the South of Ireland - perhaps the lowest in Europe - why does the Minister see benefits in our harmonising with the South of Ireland in every field of education? Northern Ireland, where a review of education is ongoing, has some of the best standards of education in Europe. Are we not harmonising downwards, rather than trying to achieve success for pupils in Northern Ireland?

Through the sectoral meetings, we are trying to increase co-operation between the education authorities in Dublin and Belfast in the best interests of all children. It is a matter of seeing where the good practice is and deciding how we can implement it in the interests of all the children who live on this island. It is common sense for us to make progress in that way.

In the United States of America, I met the Education Minister from the Clinton Administration, Dr Richard Riley. The officials who accompanied me on that visit and others have been in constant contact with American officials. They have found it highly beneficial to avail themselves of the incredible amount of research into many different aspects of education that the Americans have. We must have open minds, and we must build relationships with people all over the world. This is a small island, and we have a duty to work together to improve levels of co-operation.

2.

asked the Minister of Education to report on the impact of the work of the North/South child protection working group and, in particular, on the provision of counselling for children.

(AQO 1297/00)

The Department of Education continues to work in conjunction with the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety on the introduction of legislation aimed at preventing unsuitable people from working with children. The First Minister announced the legislation to the Assembly on 11 September 2000. The work is being led by the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety.

One of the working groups established by the North/ South education sectoral Council focuses on child protection issues. The last education sectoral meeting of the North/ South Ministerial Council took place on 3 July 2000. At that time, none of the working groups had reported back to the Council. A further education sectoral meeting was planned for late November but did not take place, and there have been no meetings of the education sectoral Council since. None of the work, nor any work under the auspices of the North/South Ministerial Council, has any impact on the provision of counselling for children.

Many schools have responded to the need for counselling support by dedicating members of staff in their pastoral care teams to provide it and arranging for such staff to have suitable training. In some situations, counselling support is provided by staff from the education and library boards' psychology service, the education welfare service, or staff who are specifically appointed for that purpose. In other situations, counselling support is provided by staff from voluntary or community groups with appropriate expertise. Access to such support is far from universal, and there are variations in the quality and duration of the support being provided.

The time is now right for evaluation of the various approaches to providing counselling support to pupils under stress. The findings from such an evaluation should be used to inform a strategy for the development of counselling support to pupils and their parents. In addition to issues such as the role of counsellors, appropriate qualifications and further professional development, a key issue will be whether counselling support should be school-based or provided independently of the school. I am pleased that I have secured some £350,000 from the Executive programme's children fund to enable the work to proceed in the current year.

Does the Minister share my concern that the ban on his attendance at North/South Ministerial Council meetings delays progress on important issues relating to the education and protection of children across this island?

Of course I share that concern. I have already said that I regret that there has been no education sectoral meeting since 3 July 2000. I stress that I want to hold an education sectoral meeting as soon as possible so that work can be completed on these important matters relating to our children's education.

Does the Minister not accept that the abject failure of his party to make political progress on the arms issue is the main stumbling block to his nonattendance at North/South Ministerial Council meetings?

Were I to accept that analysis, I would effectively be turning the Good Friday Agreement on its head. I do not think that anyone has the right to do that. My work as Minister of Education must remain over and above the outstanding difficulties of the process. Important work needs to be done in the field of education. We have to co-operate with the Southern authorities to put in place the best possible education system, North and South, and it is vital that we continue with that work. I deal with issues of great importance to all children, no matter where they live or from what section of the community they come on this island. Absolutely nothing should be done by any Administration to inhibit that.

Instead of whingeing about the bad faith of the British Government and seeking to put forward his interpretation on the Good Friday Agreement, will the Minister and his party not face up to their responsibility to give up the means of terror and the acts of terror which are perpetrated in his name? Will the Minister tell the House what he intends -

Order. The question to which we refer here was about the impact of the work of the North/South child protection working group. Will the Member please state how his question relates to the child protection working group?

Since it was the Minister who raised his non-participation in North/South bodies because of the actions which have been taken to ban him, I think that the reason for my question is fairly obvious.

Will the Member repeat the specific question?

I am more than happy to repeat the specific question.

The question which relates to the question asked.

The Minister has told the House that the North/South bodies' work on child protection has been affected by his inability to participate in them. Does he not therefore accept that his first responsibility to the House, and to those for whom he claims to wish to introduce protection, is to give up the means of terror and the acts of terror which have barred him from participating in the North/South bodies? Or does he intend to continue to abuse the court system which his Colleagues have blown up - and let us not forget the judges he has killed - to get redress for this?

Order.

Again, I hear a Unionist spokesperson attempt to turn the Good Friday Agreement on its head. Under the terms of the agreement, all the pro-agreement parties - including the two Governments - share a collective responsibility to resolve the issue of arms. I am certainly prepared to continue to fulfil my responsibilities in that regard.

The actions of the First Minister with respect to the North/South Ministerial Council have clearly not served to resolve this issue. The continuation of these actions must cause us to question his motivation. It is also worth remembering that the judicial review of the First Minister's action ruled that the obstruction of one element of the agreement could not be justified on the basis of the promotion of another of its objectives. I contend that I, as a Minister in the Executive in the North and as a member of the North/South Ministerial Council, have done everything in my power to resolve the issue to which the Member refers.

There is a duty on all of us, not just those in the pro-agreement parties. There is a duty on the MLAs from the Democratic Unionist Party and other parties in the House to work with the rest of us to bring about the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. Serious questions need to be asked about the way in which people have sought to abuse the Good Friday Agreement in their efforts to place the responsibility for dealing with the issues on the shoulders of one political party.

3.

asked the Minister of Education to detail (a) the tasks undertaken and tasks completed by the North/South special education co-ordination group and (b) when this group will formally report.

(AQO 1283/00)

The last education sectoral meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council took place on 3 July 2000. At that time none of the working groups, including the special education working group, had reported back to the Council. I reported that position when I made my statement to the Assembly on 11 September 2000.

A further education sectoral meeting of the Council was planned for late November but did not take place. Thus, no formal report of the working group has yet been made. I am unable to provide specific details of the work completed so far, as I am bound by the procedures of the Assembly and by the ministerial code. These require me first to report progress to the Executive and then, by way of a statement, to this Assembly after the next sectoral meeting takes place.

I stress that I wish to hold an education sectoral meeting of the Council as soon as possible to enable the working groups to report back so that decisions can be taken, thus avoiding further delay in progressing the important issues that the working groups have been considering.

Can the Minister outline any steps he has taken, or intends to take, to ensure that North/ South Ministerial Council sectoral meetings on education take place in the near future?

The Member will be aware that I took this matter to the courts, and the actions of the First Minister were found to be unlawful. Officials from my Department have, on my behalf, served formal notice on the North/South secretariat that I am seeking a North/ South Ministerial Council sectoral meeting on education at the earliest possible date. I recently met with the British Secretary of State, John Reid, and outlined my view of the options available to him in the event of the First Minister's continuing to act unlawfully. I will, of course, consider the various legal options open to me arising from any repetition of the refusal by the First Minister to nominate me to attend the North/South Ministerial Council.

I concur with the position of my Colleague Mr Kennedy and the support for that line from Mr Sammy Wilson. I am sure that the Minister realises that the solution lies with himself and his own party. Will the Minister detail, by subject and date, those educational matters on which he has requested a North/South Ministerial Council meeting since July 2000?

Since July 2000 we have been looking to progress all the matters that I outlined earlier in the course of my answers. I do not intend to waste the time of the Assembly by repeating those issues, but I am sure that the Member and his party are well aware of them.

It is important that we get these matters into perspective. The duty and responsibility of Members, and of myself as a member of the Executive, is to ensure that we make politics work and continue with what has been a considerable amount of good work done since the Assembly and the Executive were established.

The vast majority of people on the outside, who watch these proceedings with considerable interest, want to see politics and politicians working on their behalf. As Minister of Education, I have tried to work on behalf of everyone in the community without fear or favour. It is important that I be allowed to do my job to the fullest and that no obstacles be placed in my way. I am one of those people who believe that if we can press on to make politics work, all the difficult outstanding issues that create problems for people on the Unionist side can be resolved.

5.

asked the Minister of Education to detail the steps he is taking to provide capital expenditure for an extension programme at Assumption Grammar School, Ballynahinch; and to make a statement.

(AQO 1260/00)

I fully accept the need to extend and refurbish the accommodation at Assumption Grammar School. The school was considered for a place in the capital programme, which I announced last month, but it was not possible to include it, given the resources available to me. The school continues to have a high priority in the distribution of capital funding, and it will be reconsidered next year.

I remind the Minister that, when he wrote to me on 17 October, he said that his Department fully accepts the need to extend and refurbish the accommodation at Assumption Grammar and that planning for this was at an advanced stage. He now accepts that that is the situation and that despite the advanced stage which had been reached last October, a decision on funding has now been put off until next year. I can only question what is meant by "priority" in the case of Assumption Grammar School in Ballynahinch and the other very urgent case of St Patrick's Grammar School, Downpatrick. These two voluntary grammar schools, which are in my constituency, have not received any of these grants, despite the Department's admission that they have high-priority need. Is the imposition of a waiting period of 12 months, plus an additional period, a correct interpretation of the word "priority"?

The Member will know, a LeasCheann Comhairle, that around 30 schools were competing for a place in the schools capital building programme, totalling some £200 million. I sympathise with every school which eagerly anticipated the announcement of the awards to be made under this year's programme. This is always a very difficult matter for any Minister to deal with, simply because of the very limited resources available. The school is still a high priority. I accept the arguments put forward by Mr McGrady on behalf of his constituents, and I appreciate that, as Minister of Education, I have a duty to continue to lobby the Executive as best I can to acquire as much funding as possible to alleviate the difficulties experienced by many schools such as Assumption Grammar School, Ballynahinch, St Patrick's Grammar School, Downpatrick, and others throughout the North.

6.

asked the Minister of Education to detail his plans for encouraging the consumption of milk and yoghurt in nursery and primary schools as part of the healthy eating programme.

(AQO 1290/00)

My Department is committed to encouraging the consumption of milk and dairy products, including yoghurt, in schools. Last year, when the European Commission reduced the subsidy payable under the EU's school milk scheme, through which nursery and primary pupils may purchase milk at a subsidised price, my Department, the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, and the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety agreed to co-fund the shortfall to ensure that the cost to pupils would not increase. My Department is also preparing a consultation paper on the implementation of new compulsory nutritional standards for school lunches. The proposed standards will require every school lunch for nursery and primary pupils to contain milk or dairy products, and drinking milk will be required as an available option every day.

I am sure the Minister will agree that, at the moment, good news for the agriculture industry would be most welcome. Does he agree that this is an opportunity to develop an interdepartmental approach, which would enhance the health of our children while promoting Northern Ireland dairy products? Will he undertake to continue his discussions with his ministerial Colleagues in the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Health so that the health of our children, and of our dairy industry, can be protected?

Yes. I agree that it would make sense if every Department continued to exercise cross-departmental co-operation. Many will know that, under the Executive programme funds, there are opportunities for co-operation between Departments. The Department of Education, the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development and the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety should continue to consider these opportunities.

That said, a considerable amount of work is still being done, and we are at pains to continue to review the situation to ensure that there is a very high nutritional standard in schools.

7.

asked the Minister of Education to ascertain the procedure adopted by the Western Education and Library Board for payment of bills to small contractors.

(AQO 1279/00)

I have been advised by the chief executive of the Western Education and Library Board that the board pays its trade creditors in accordance with the better payment code and Government accounting rules. On receipt of an invoice from a contractor the work is inspected and approved by the appropriate staff. The approved invoice is then sent for payment to the board's accounts department, which ensures that where relevant the requirements of the construction industry's tax scheme are complied with before payment is made.

I am glad that the Minister's response means that the Department's guidelines and Government guidelines are complied with. He may be aware that in the past some small firms have been forced out of business because money just did not come through in time. I refer in particular to the Derry City Council area, so I am glad that the Minister is now taking an interest in it. I hope that systems will be put in place; that those which are in place will be adhered to; and that firms will not go out of business again.

I understand that the Western Education and Library Board paid over 60% of invoices within 30 days of the invoice date over the financial periods 1998-99 to 2000-01. The last audited figure was 63% in 1998.

The chief executive has assured me that the board is extremely conscious of the need to ensure prompt payment of invoices. To that end, it has developed and implemented new procedures and payment arrangements continually to improve on past performance. Of course I sympathise greatly with the plight and difficulty of businesses, particularly small firms who find it very difficult. I can assure the Member that I am very conscious of the need to ensure that we continue to improve our performance.

8.

asked the Minister of Education to detail what services are available to children with hearing difficulties at schools in the Ards Borough Council area.

(AQO 1269/00)

I understand from the South Eastern Education and Library Board that four different levels of service are provided for children with hearing difficulties in the Ards Borough Council area. These are: support teaching from the board's peripatetic teaching service for the hearing-impaired; classroom assistance in mainstream schools; weekly hearing aid checks; and annual - or more frequently if requested by the school - hearing tests of those with fluctuating hearing loss but no hearing aids. Weekly and annual checks and tests are carried out by peripatetic teachers of the hearing-impaired.

I represent one of the largest growing consituencies in Northern Ireland of which the Ards borough comprises a considerable portion. Can the Minister tell me the exact number of places that are available for each of the four different levels of service he has described? I have a sheaf of letters in my office from residents of the Ards borough who have children with hearing difficulties and cannot get them placements for aid.

Currently, seven children receive support teaching, four receive classroom assistance, 13 have weekly hearing aid checks, and 29 have annual or more frequent hearing tests. A special education unit for the hearing-impaired was attached to Donaghadee High School and another existed at Rathmore Primary School in Bangor in the adjoining North Down Borough Council area. Neither of these units is currently in operation because there are insufficient hearing-impaired pupils in the schools' catchment areas. If demand for these services were to increase, the South Eastern Education and Library Board would consider reinstating them.

9.

asked the Minister of Education to detail the budget for his Department in each of the last five years for which figures are available.

(AQO 1267/00)

The budgets allocated to the present Department of Education since it was created in 1999-2000 were £1,165 million, and £1,274 million for the year 2000-01. These relate to the services for which the new Department is responsible - schools, youth provision and their associated services.

Time is up.

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Health, Social Services and Public Safety

I would like to inform Members that question 11, in the name of Mr McGrady, and question 12, in the name of Mr Fee, have been withdrawn.

1.

asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail what progress has been made by the Health, Social Services and Public Safety working group set up under the North/South Ministerial Council.

(AQO 1281/00)

8.

asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail those areas which are unable to be advanced as a result of not holding a North/South Ministerial Council in health sectoral format.

(AQO 1306/00)

Le do chead, a LeasCheann Comhairle, freagróidh mé ceisteanna 1 agus 8 le chéile ós rud é go mbaineann siad le comhoibriú Thuaidh/Theas.

With your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall take questions 1 and 8 together, since they both relate to North/South co-operation.

Bunaíodh comhghrúpaí oibre faoi choimirce na Comhairle Aireachta Thuaidh/Theas le machnamh a dhéanamh ar an dóigh arbh fhéidir comhoibriú Thuaidh/ Theas ar chúrsaí sláinte a mhéadú i gach ceann de na cúig réimsí aitheanta: seirbhísí taismí agus éigeandálaí, pleanáil éigeandálaí, trealamh ardteicneolaíochta, taighde ar ailsí agus cur chun cinn na sláinte. Bhí sraith cruinnithe ar leibhéal oifigiúil ann cheana féin. Cuireadh cruinniú earnála ar shláinte agus ar shábháilteacht bia a socraíodh don 3 Samhain ar ceal cionnas gur sháraigh an Chéad-Aire ar a dhualgas reachtúil a chomhlíonadh de réir mhír 52 d'Acht TÉ 1998 le hAirí cuí a ainmniú don chruinniú.

Joint working groups were set up under the auspices of the North/South Ministerial Council to consider how North/South co-operation on health matters could be enhanced in five identified areas: accident and emergency services; emergency planning; high-technology equipment; cancer research; and health promotion. A series of meetings has taken place at official level. A sectoral meeting on health and food safety scheduled for 3 November 2000 was cancelled as a result of a breach by the First Minister of his statutory duty under section 52 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to make the necessary ministerial nominations for the meeting. This action by the First Minister, which has since been ruled unlawful by the High Court, continues to hamper further progress.

The absence of North/South Ministerial Council meetings has meant that there has been a lack of strategic ministerial direction on the work being taken forward in each of the five areas, as envisaged under the Good Friday Agreement. It is also having a detrimental effect on the working of the Food Safety Promotion Board, and, as a result, the implementation of proposals for enhanced co-operation, which would be beneficial for people, North and South, has been delayed.

Does the Minister agree that any continuing obstruction of the work of the North/South Ministerial Council will erode confidence in the political institutions?

Will she further agree that the acquiescence to such an obstruction by the British Secretary of State, John Reid, places the British Government in breach of an international agreement?

I share the concerns expressed by the Member and regret that I was unable to hear her properly because of the disruption in the Chamber.

Paragraph 13 of strand two of the Good Friday Agreement states clearly that the North/South Ministerial Council and the Assembly are mutually dependent and that one cannot function successfully without the other. Therefore, any continuing obstruction of the workings of the North/South Ministerial Council, in sectoral or plenary format, will have serious implications. It will impede the work of the institutions and erode confidence in them.

The North/South Ministerial Council is the subject of an international agreement between the British and Irish Governments, and while it is a matter for the Irish Government to consider the options open to them, it is obvious that the continuing obstruction of the workings of the North/South Ministerial Council will have a damaging effect on all of us.

Go raibh maith agat. Can the Minister outline any steps that she has taken or intends to take to ensure that a sectoral meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council on health and food safety takes place in the near future?

Like my Colleague, the Minister of Education, officials from my Department have on my behalf formally notified the North/South secretariat that I am seeking a North/South Ministerial Council sectoral meeting on health and food safety at the earliest possible date. I have also written to the British Secretary of State, John Reid, on two occasions reminding him of the powers available to him under section 26 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to direct the First Minister to carry out his statutory duty to make nominations to the Council. I have recently met separately with both John Reid and Taoiseach Bertie Ahern. I outlined my view of the options available to them in the event of the First Minister's continuing to act unlawfully. I will consider the various legal options available to me if there is any repetition of the First Minister's refusal to nominate me to attend the North/South Ministerial Council.

It seems as though we have returned to the first ministerial set of questions and answers. I would remind the Minister that the solution to her problem lies with herself, her ministerial Colleague and the rest of her party.

When I asked the Minister of Education a question, which the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety must have heard, I did not receive an answer, so I wonder whether I will receive one on this occasion. Will the Minister detail, by subject and date, those health, social services and public safety issues for which she has requested that a North/South Ministerial Council meeting be held? Or, like her ministerial Colleague, has she not even bothered to request them?

If the Member wishes to look at the press release of 3 November following the sectoral meeting in Enniskillen, he will see details of the issues that were dealt with at that meeting that were of great benefit to the people of Ireland, North and South. Those were the issues to be dealt with at the North/South Ministerial Council meeting that I requested yet was not able to attend because of the First Minister's breach in refusing to nominate me.

The Minister has not answered the question.

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