Order. You were reading the text of a different motion into the record, and that is why I said that that was out of order.

I accept your ruling, Madam Deputy Speaker. I simply wanted to say that I need only six members of the Ulster Unionist Party to sign the motion that I mentioned so that we can have a debate -

Out of order.

We had, on one side, an interesting debate, because the gross hypocrisy of IRA/Sinn Féin was exposed. They had the brass neck to come and talk about what, in their motion, they claim is collusion between the security forces - that is, the Royal Ulster Constabulary Special Branch and British Army intelligence - and the Loyalist paramilitaries in the "planning and murder of Catholics". That is utter hypocrisy. In her opening remarks, the Member who introduced the debate said that its purpose was to seek to lay to rest those allegations. The truth is that if any motion were accepted today or any inquiry into any allegation were to be initiated, nothing would be laid to rest unless the relevant tribunal gave the statement that IRA/Sinn Féin or the SDLP wanted it to give. An example is the Bloody Sunday inquiry. After £100 million has been wasted, if that tribunal does not state what the SDLP and Sinn Féin want it to state, they will dismiss it completely and demand another inquiry. Nothing will satisfy the insatiable demands of Republicanism. All that Republicanism wants is for the people of Northern Ireland and the British Government to lie down and let themselves be trampled into the gutter.

Let us look at some remarks which were made in today's debate. Mrs Nelis stated that 500 Republicans were informed by the RUC today that they were under threat. Why did she want to bring that up? Sinn Féin has never believed anything else the RUC has said, so why do they believe that this is accurate information? They reject everything the RUC says; they throw the baby out with the bath water, and then they bring this up - that she has solid evidence from the RUC that 500 Republicans are under threat. That shows you the brazen hypocrisy of that party, because it does not believe anything stated by the Royal Ulster Constabulary. They have done everything to blacken that gallant organisation, which has defended the rights and privileges of all the people of Northern Ireland.

I agree with what Mr McGimpsey said about Mrs Nelis coming out with the usual black propaganda. That is exactly what she and John Kelly were doing. Sinn Féin were coming out with their black propaganda.

The sad fact is that the party that is coming out with the black propaganda against the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the other security forces - Sinn Féin/IRA - has been put into the Government of Northern Ireland by the Ulster Unionist Party. That is why I agree with Mr Wilson that we should ensure as a matter of urgency that Sinn Féin/IRA is put out of its Executive positions. It is destroying democracy - [Interruption].

Order. The Member should address the motion.

I will not waste time challenging that ruling. I am simply stating that Sinn Féin/IRA have colluded with the gardaí and others to murder Protestants and Roman Catholics in this country. The spotlight ought to be upon Sinn Féin/IRA.

We should remember the gross hypocrisy of Sinn Féin about the intimidation of Roman Catholics who wanted to join the RUC. Those people were intimidated and could not go back to their homes. Some Members are smirking about that. It is despicable and disgraceful that people should be intimidated for wanting to join the Royal Ulster Constabulary. Now, we see the same intimidation of Roman Catholics who dare to put in an application form for the new police force. Sinn Féin refuses to condemn, saying that it is not into the politics of condemnation. However, Sinn Féin is not against condemnation of the RUC, the army, or the Loyalists. It is not into the politics of condemnation when it comes to IRA activity against law-abiding people, whether they be Roman Catholics or Protestants. As Alban Maginness said, although the RUC killed 43 Roman Catholics, the IRA murdered 381. Those figures speak for themselves.

Our Government have demoralised the RUC and left the IRA intact, although that organisation ought to be dismantled and destroyed. The tragedy for the RUC is not collusion; it is that our Government never allowed our security forces to fight the IRA and put them where they belong. Tragically, the Government tied the security forces' hands behind their back and did not allow them to destroy the terrorist scourge that threatened the whole community.

We have been promised more terror. At the weekend, Sinn Féin/IRA's Mr Keenan said that he did not know what those who said the war was over were talking about. He said

That is the heart of the motion. They would remove, destroy and demoralise the security forces and the forces of law and order in the Province. That was said just last weekend, but, of course, Sinn Féin/IRA is not into the politics of condemnation.

Mr "Wash his hands" Pilate McLaughlin said that they did not really intend to threaten anyone. When that same person was asked whether Martin McGuinness was a member of the IRA, he replied that it had been his practice throughout his political career not to involve himself in issues that were outside his field. He seemed to have a great deal of information for us today, despite his claims that he knows nothing about the organisation of which he and his colleagues form a part. Sinn Féin and the IRA are two sides of the same coin; even the Irish Government have told us that. Yet, Mr McLaughlin wants us to believe that he knows nothing about Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams or anything about the IRA.

The IRA has colluded with the Gardaí.

They have colluded with heads of Government in the Irish Republic. Remember when the old Stickies stood aside and the Provisionals came into existence? Who armed the Provisionals? It was the Southern Irish Government - the Fianna Fáil Government - that armed the Provos to carry out their dastardly deeds upon the people of Northern Ireland. They talk about inquiries. Let us have a few honest inquiries. Let us have an inquiry into why Sinn Féin/IRA is in the Government of this country. People want to know why those who are committed to the paths of terrorism are allowed to sit in government over the people whom they have destroyed, murdered and slaughtered for the past 30 years.

Enough money has been wasted on inquiries such as the Bloody Sunday inquiry. The RUC officers are the heroes, not the villains. They ought to be commended. I certainly commend the security forces for their defence of freedom in this beloved Province.

No one stands here to say that he or she agrees with every action of every member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. No one would say that of his or her Colleagues in the Chamber. Nevertheless, the truth is that the Royal Ulster Constabulary has gallantly defended the rights and freedoms of this country against one of the most bloodthirsty campaigns of terror and violence that any group of people has ever had to endure in the history of our beloved country.

We are faced with a motion today that never had any intention of getting to the heart of the problems of Northern Ireland. Sinn Féin was trying to cover its own guilt over the slaughter of the people here.

Monica McWilliams said that we must reflect on what a dirty war it was. What does she mean by "it was"?

The Member's time is up.

A dirty war is still going on in this country, and that is the war of the Provos who use the ballot box in one hand and the Armalite in the other.

The Member's time is up.

They are using their Executive position over the people of Northern Ireland - [Interruption].

The Member's time is up.

- while at the same time scheming the destruction, murder and slaughter of the innocent people of this country. We need an inquiry to expose that rottenness in the system.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I will do my best in the time allotted to respond to all the Members who spoke. I remind Members that the motion

I say to Sammy Wilson and Willie McCrea that they protest too much. I notice how uncomfortable people on the Unionist Benches are when the issue of collusion involving members of the security forces is raised. It was not Walter Mitty who murdered Patsy Kelly in Tyrone. Perhaps we should ask, as Mitchell McLaughlin has done, which element of the security forces was involved in that murder.

Sammy Wilson likes to quote from books. I can also quote from a few. I could direct the attention of the Unionist Members to a book by Kennedy Lindsay, 'Ambush at Tully-West: The British Intelligence Services in Action'. It told the story of Ian Black, a member of the UDR, who used to put his car into the barracks at night when he went out on patrol in a jeep. He discovered that his car was being used by the British intelligence forces to go into west Belfast to murder Catholics. I did not say that. Nor did Amnesty International. Kennedy Lindsay said it, and it is in a book as a recorded fact. Members should get the book and read it.

On the issue of the IRA's being involved in -

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it right that a Member should castigate members of the Ulster Defence Regiment when her husband was a member of that organisation?

That is not a point of order.

I will ignore that remark. But I am glad that he saw the light.

If members of the IRA were involved in murders, as the DUP states, they were caught and convicted. The issue here is not the role of the IRA, but the allegations that murder was carried out in the name of the state. For example, Brian Nelson's handler Gordon Kerr, known as Colonel "J", who provided testimony at Nelson's trial on charges of murder and conspiracy, did not go to prison. He got an OBE and a top job in Beijing. Sammy Wilson talked about a spotlight. The spotlight of scrutiny fell on Ulster Resistance - we all saw the rally in the Ulster Hall on television - when Gregory Campbell, Ian Paisley and Peter Robinson wore their red berets. We saw them, up on the top of a mountain somewhere, carrying firearms certificates.

Michael McGimpsey said that I did not bring forth any evidence to support the motion. He should read - as should everyone - articles by Amnesty International and the 'Sunday Telegraph', which is no friend of Sinn Féin's. Look at the 'Insight' programme.

I said that there are allegations that Loyalist paramilitaries were killed in collusion that involved British military intelligence. I said that the handing out of personal details of Nationalists and Republicans was recorded on a UTV programme by Brian Black.

Alban McGuinness did not address the motion either. Is he saying that the British are neutral? Is he saying that they were not involved in collusion? Was Brian Nelson a figment of everyone's imagination? Did Stobie, who was an agent of the RUC and who was charged with the murder of Pat Finucane, not exist? He ignores the response, and attempts to ignore the issue of the British state violence, while attempting to elevate other organisations to the position of being responsible for every death that has happened.

Jim Shannon gave us a tirade on how innocent the security forces are. If everyone in the security forces were as innocent as he suggests, one wonders why the British Government have steadfastly rejected calls by the United Nations and by Amnesty International to deny the allegations made before them.

As regards the allegations, which we heard from several Members, that the IRA killed more Catholics. That is what I would call the numbers game. The French Resistance killed more French people than Germans during World War II. Members should read history.

Mitchel McLaughlan referred to Stobie, who was a member of the UDA -[Interruption].

Order.

Stobie, when charged - and I quote directly - replied

The truth, indeed, hits hard.

Paddy Roche talks about the inquiry into the murder of Rosemary Nelson. It is well documented that Rosemary Nelson was threatened by members of the RUC, who were identified by Commander Mulvihill. Evidence to support that was put forward by Louis Blom-Cooper, who stated that Rosemary Nelson was threatened. Mulvihill's inquiry into the death of Rosemary Nelson is a sham, because it is being conducted from the very RUC station where those who threatened her are now located. Param Cumaraswamy said that as well.

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Are we expected to listen to absolute nonsense? Louis Blom-Cooper spelt out clearly the basis on which he rejected those allegations.

That is not a point of order.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Billy Hutchinson made the most pointed response to the motion. I want to reply to him by stating that they did not argue that everyone involved in Loyalist paramilitaries was involved in collusion. I welcome Billy Hutchinson's acknowledgement that there was collusion. That is contained in the spirit of the motion, and he was the only Member in the Chamber, apart from my own comrades, who tried to address that. I have not argued that every member of the RUC was a sectarian monster, but some were.

Monica McWilliams did not address the motion either. She talks about pain - [Interruption]

Yes, I know - [Interruption].

Order.

Thank you, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The point is - and it is contained in the motion - that either there was collusion or there was not - [Interruption]

Order. The Member is entitled to be heard.

It is a humbling experience to listen to the relatives of those who were murdered in collusion with the state. They want to get on with their lives, but they cannot face the future until they establish the truth about the past.

The motion highlights the need for healing. It is not about remorse; it is about the role of the British state in many of the deaths that caused the pain about which Monica McWilliams talked.

Sam Foster, along with many others, gave us the numbers game. Inquiries into specific killings are necessary, because the questions of collusion by the state in those deaths have not been answered.

I say to Alex Attwood that the motion is clear - in fact the SDLP have indirectly supported it by using the calls for inquiries into the murders of Pat Finucane, Rosemary Nelson and Robert Hamill to enable them to move to the new Police Service Board. They did acknowledge that there was a dirty war, but then Alex Attwood went on to say that only selected members of the British forces were involved. If that is the case, then the British Government should tell us. They should acknowledge that they knew of the activities of the Forces Research Unit (FRU) and that they knew of the South African arms.

Edwin Poots raised the age-old argument - I think that it was RUC Chief Constable Hermon who used it years ago to try to put to rest the allegations of collusion then - of the few rotten apples in the barrel. Nobody believed him, and nobody believes Edwin Poots now either.

Nobody believes you.

Then we had the cost of collusion. Let me point out to some of the Members on the opposite Benches - [Interruption].

Order.

Brian Nelson, of whom we have heard a great deal today, was paid £28,000 a week for his labours as an informer for the British military services. On whose orders was he operating? FRU - [Interruption].

Order. This is the third or fourth time during this contribution that I have had to stand. I remind Members that there is dignity in the House and that the Member is entitled to be heard - [Interruption]. I have called for order - [Interruption].

I have called for order.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I too am appalled at the disrespect shown to the Chair - [Interruption].

Order.

FRU soldiers and officials, including the former Secretary of State, Tom King, have tried to suppress documents that are now in the public domain.

In fact, the whistle-blower, under the pseudonym Martin Ingram, wrote in a Belfast newspaper recently about the "right" people who were allowed to live and the "wrong" people who were not. Members should get hold of that and read it. Alan McFarland said that Sinn Féin was not making a demand. No, we are not making a demand; we are not calling for public inquiries - we are supporting the relatives who have called for them - [Interruption]

Order. Because of the disruption, I shall give Mrs Nelis 30 seconds to finish.

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Previously when there were periods of disruption and you called for order, the clock stopped. Surely the Member's time is up - [Interruption].

Order. The clock stopped during points of order - not during the time when I was calling for order and I was standing and waiting for order. I am giving Mrs Nelis 30 seconds to conclude her remarks.

Madam Deputy Speaker, can you tell us how often you have given the same opportunity to Members on this side of the House? Or are you especially fond of doing that for Sinn Féin/IRA?

The Deputy Speaker rejects any such accusation. Order. I will give Mrs Nelis 30 seconds to conclude her remarks.

Yes, agents are a part of the apparatus of the State. The motion clearly calls for the issue of collusion in the planning and carrying out of the murders of over 100 Catholics to be addressed by the British Government.

Question, That the amendment be, made put and agreed to.

TOP

Public Transport (Weather Conditions)

asked the Minister for Regional Development, pursuant to his statement on 15 January 2001 on the salting of roads, what measures are being taken to ensure that road, rail and other public transport networks remain in use and, in particular, what steps are being taken to support the needs of emergency services in the light of the current adverse weather conditions.

There was widespread disruption to roads across Northern Ireland both last night and this morning due to a combination of drifting snow, fallen trees and power lines that were brought down by 70 miles-per-hour winds. Jackknifed lorries and abandoned vehicles have caused blockages in some areas. The Roads Service has deployed all of its resources to try to keep the main traffic routes passable. All Roads Service divisions were put on a high state of readiness at 10 am yesterday. In the northern division, snowplough blades were mounted on some vehicles, and gritting started at lunchtime yesterday. Similar measures were implemented at 6.45 pm in eastern and southern divisions.

All main routes on the salted network were treated prior to the snowfall. A band of rain preceded the snow; therefore some was washed off. Main routes were salted continuously through the night. Despite that, many roads have been affected especially in Counties Antrim and Down and in the Belfast area.

Translink advises that if roads remain passable it will continue to offer as many of its scheduled bus services as is practicable. Translink must ensure that passenger safety - and that of its own staff - takes precedence. Operational decisions to withdraw services will be made on that basis. Translink has also advised that disruption to rail services has been minimal. Northern Ireland Railways operates an on-call system that enables signal points to be kept clear of ice. Its staff have been implementing those measures across the network since early this morning. Translink advises that if bus or rail services are further disrupted due to the weather, it will endeavour to keep passengers informed through the media and its dedicated call centre.

I thank the Minister for making the time to be available today. I am not going to rehearse the weather problems that people across the entire community have been experiencing over past days. They affect everyone in Northern Ireland.

Can the Minister give us an update on the commitment that he gave on 15 January 2001, when he made a statement to the House following the bad weather over the Christmas and New Year period? He specifically referred to ensuring "access to key public services in snow conditions". Can he give us some commitment that those key public services or facilities will include schools, hospitals, churches, health centres, cemeteries, and the local shop or post office - the places people need to get to? That is especially important for people in rural areas, so that they can survive these bad weather conditions with some reasonable comfort. They need to be in a position to access the local facilities, services and outlets.

In particular, will the Minister consider what needs to be done to ensure that the emergency services - the Ambulance Service, the police and the Fire Service - can actually do their job and perform their functions during the type of weather that we have seen in the past couple of days?

The Member refers to a statement that I made in the House on 15 January 2001. I assume that he is referring to the winter service review that I undertook to have carried out by the Roads Service. The review is currently under way, and I will report to the House when its conclusions are known.

The Member asked specifically about a number of areas involving the emergency services. Hospitals, for the most part, are located on the salted network, so immediate access to and from hospitals is normally covered. He raised - both today and previously - other points relating to matters such as GP out-of-hours services, nursing homes and health centres. It is difficult to establish every single access to and from every one of those - and to ensure that they are free at all times - when the entire Roads Service staff is working flat out to ensure that the salted network, primarily, is kept free.

The main roads have been affected this morning by the horrendous weather, and we have seen the problems that afflict the electricity supply in Northern Ireland - and which afflict some of those emergency services. I can inform the Member that the emergency services will form part of the review.

I would like to be able to say that every road and every access to every emergency service will be kept open at all times. It is not practicable for me to say that, especially with the budget limitation of £5 million per year for the winter salting programme. I will, however, ensure that the elements referred to by Mr Fee will become part of the review and will be closely examined.

I am sure that the Assembly is grateful to the Minister for taking the time to come and answer this question.

Foot-and-Mouth Disease

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Yesterday I raised a point of order, relating to the fact that, with the Minister of Agriculture being engaged in meetings in Brussels, there was no Minister available to make a statement on the foot-and-mouth disease crisis throughout the UK and on its implications for Northern Ireland. I understood that the Minister of Agriculture hoped to be here this afternoon, and a private notice question was tabled. She is again detained - this time in London. It is utterly unacceptable that there is no Minister to speak on a matter that is of great importance to the agriculture community.

Also, can you inform me how it is possible to ask for a statement to be made in the House by another Minister on behalf of the Executive?

That is a matter for the Executive - not for the House. It is appropriate that the Executive should be asked whether another Minister could replace the Minister. You have made the point that the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development is in London attending a very important meeting on this issue. The question you raise is a matter for the Executive.

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can you clarify whether the Member is correct when he says that foot-and-mouth disease is now present throughout the United Kingdom? So far as I am aware, it is only in Great Britain and has not reached this part of the United Kingdom yet.

That is not a point of order.

<< Prev