Northern Ireland Assembly

Mrs E Bell:

I support the amendment. I would like to welcome members of the Fire Brigades Union who are, I think, in the Public Gallery. They have spoken to many Members today, and I hope that they will find the debate useful. I support the amendment, because I feel that the DUP's motion is restricting both the Assembly and the Secretary of State, as my own did some weeks ago. However, I hope that the motion will be debated in the right atmosphere and that the firefighters of Northern Ireland will be left in absolutely no doubt that Assembly Members agree that there should be due recognition of the dedication, commitment and sacrifice of firefighters, past and present, on behalf of all the people of Northern Ireland.

When devolution was achieved, the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety was given the task of organising such an award. Accordingly, the Minister issued a statement in June that the award would be made. I quote from the beginning of her statement:

"I wish to advise Members of the arrangements being made to pay tribute to the exceptional service of the Fire Service over the last 30 years."

That followed a meeting of the Executive, during which the Minister spoke in a way similar to that in which she has spoken today, and which underlined the sense of appreciation of the Assembly.

One of the benefits of devolution is that we, as local representatives, could create some sort of appropriate award that would not preclude a decision by the Secretary of State to make a state award. We should be able to make our own decisions. Are we not mature enough to do that?

The Fire Brigades Union was supportive of the state awards made to the RUC and the prison officers. It was felt that, if the efforts of firefighters were to be properly recognised, their award should be of a similar stature. I have spoken to many firefighters from all over Northern Ireland, and they realise that there would be a difference between a corporate award and a state one. However, they would like both, if possible. These firefighters also said that it would be nice to be the first recipients of such an award from the Assembly.

Firefighting is a dangerous and potentially life- threatening undertaking. It is considerably more dramatic and varied than, for example, the picture painted by the television programme 'London's Burning'. There has been loss of life and serious injury throughout the brigade's history. In my constituency last week, firefighters arrived at a scene to be greeted by two gunmen who would not let them near the blaze, despite the fact that things were happening that might have resulted in loss of life.

It is, I regret to say, a service that the public tends to take for granted. Firefighters are not just expected to put out fires and rescue people; they also have to rescue kittens up trees, free children from railings, help those who have been locked out of or inside buildings and aid those trapped in the aftermath of a road traffic accident. But for the efforts of the brigade, horrors such as La Mon, Abercorn and the others mentioned would have been even more horrific. I remind Members of the film footage that we have seen over the years of the troubles, with buildings crumbling in flames as they did in wartime. What was and is the first line of defence called upon to try to save both life and property? It is the Fire Brigade.

We, as an Assembly representing the people of Northern Ireland, cannot allow their efforts to be overlooked or undervalued as we move towards a new future for all of us. Such a future has been made possible by the bravery and selflessness of the men and women who protected our community from peril. The Fire Brigades Union has had meetings with the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. It was encouraged by her attitude. Today's statement shows her prompt action in dealing with the matter. She will obviously make significant efforts to impress upon the Secretary of State the need to give serious consideration to the state's giving appropriate recognition to the firefighters. The Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will also consider what is appropriate.

It is fully within the remit of the Secretary of State to decide whether a state award should be made to the firefighters, but if it is decided that an Assembly medal is an appropriate award at this time, it will be the first ever. It will be locally decided and locally supported and, as such, will carry the heartfelt thanks of all the people of Northern Ireland with it. In its own way, that could be extremely hard to improve on, but a state award would be something that could still be considered. I have had many requests from firefighters. They maintain that they would be pleased to accept either, although more pleased to accept both.

I hope that the Minister's statement will be unanimously supported. That will ensure that the Minister, the Secretary of State and the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister are all fully aware of the views of the Assembly, its Members and the people of Northern Ireland whom they represent. Our priority must be the recognition of all firefighters, past and present, who have kept our people and society safe and protected life and property throughout difficult times and against all odds. In spite of other problems, such as funding and manpower - and gender issues, I have to say - our priority must be the recognition of all firefighters who have played their demanding role to help us.

4.30 pm

It is sad that the DUP cannot put the wishes of the firefighters ahead of its own political agenda. I hope that they will do that. I hope that all Members will speak on relevant matters today, and not use the debate as a vehicle for criticism or comment on others. To do so would be to do no service to those whom we have come here to support: the Fire Brigade, the firefighters, men and women of Northern Ireland.

Mr Ervine:

I am sure that the Fire Brigades Union wondered for a moment whether we were the right people to be talking about this when we began - or lapsed into - what seemed to be a divisive debate. I do not recognise the Fire Service described by Mr J Kelly. I could never imagine a postcode area where they would not go, or a house or a life that they would not attempt to save.

Mr J Kelly:

I was not suggesting that, a LeasCheann Comhairle. What I said was that employment levels in the Fire Service did not adequately represent the Nationalist and Unionist make-up of our population, and that there was a chill factor, a culture of discrimination, against Nationalists' joining the Fire Service.

Mr Ervine:

Against the backdrop of attempting to encourage the Assembly, and therefore society, the Member was not required to introduce such a negative element, regardless of how much he is wedded to that belief.

My understanding of firefighters is that we should value them all, no matter where they have served. We have seen them coping with terrible circumstances. The morning might begin with taking someone who has been decapitated out of a road traffic accident. In the afternoon, a child might be found - perfect, untouched, but asphyxiated by smoke. A firefighter has to carry that child out to all of those who will grieve. Those are the normal circumstances of the Fire Service.

Then, there is the unavoidable accidental horror, the avoidable accidental horror and the wanton destruction. Our society, unlike many others, has all three. The Fire Service is at the front of those who have to go - those who go on our behalf. I am pleased that the Minister has recognised the Fire Service and that there is recognition from all parts of the House. It is vital that the British Administration also recognise the sacrifice of the Fire Service.

Jim Shannon and Danny O'Connor referred to resources and to the circumstances under which the Fire Service functions. They save the British Exchequer billions of pounds under difficult circumstances, never measuring the risk to themselves. Some of us who have been close to victims that the Fire Service has had to deal with might look at such things somewhat differently. Accountants at Westminster look at it on the basis of what they have to pay out, for example, to give Essex perfect Fire Service cover. Northern Ireland gets the crumbs off the table.

Our men have been fighting the battle under those circumstances for many years. That is bad enough for a normal Fire Service. If it is a Fire Service in a place apart - Northern Ireland - suffering wanton destruction and the resultant horror, how much more significant is recognition by that Government of the Fire Service's dedication under awful circumstances? They were under- resourced, but they behaved as they were expected to behave. Do we not expect that of trained firemen? The Fire Service has served the community above and beyond the call of duty, taking into consideration the lack of resources. Others, who did not have the same trauma and difficulty to deal with, received better treatment.

I shall make one final argument as to why it is so vital that there be a state award. Mr O'Connor said that his amendment did not preclude what Mr Shannon wanted. However, it is also true that Mr Shannon's motion does not preclude what Mr O'Connor wants. There is no reason why the Minister could not approach the Secretary of State to make him aware of the depth of feeling about this. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we could recognise the value of the work of the Northern Ireland Fire Service, even though we have only just assumed responsibility for it. The Minister should tell the Secretary of State or the Prime Minister that they would be as well to do the same - the honourable, decent thing. However, such a scenario was not forthcoming. That is a serious disappointment.

We have only just taken over responsibility for the Fire Service. The people who previously had the responsibility, and who ought to pay tribute, are at Westminster. Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom, and the United Kingdom Exchequer benefited from the skills and tireless efforts of the Fire Service. It is fundamentally important that that recognition be complete, and that both Houses recognise the Fire Service. What harm would that do? Who would feel insulted? Fire Service personnel of both religions and none have risked their life saving others in every postcode area. The Fire Service had to deal with road traffic and other accidents, as well as the wanton destruction that was visited on our society by the troubles, irrespective of who caused it.

My support for the motion does not mean that I feel wholly negatively towards the amendment. There is goodwill on these Benches. I appeal to the Minister to give serious consideration to lobbying on behalf of the Northern Ireland Fire Service. It would not go amiss and might settle the worries of Members who feel - probably wrongly - that there is some sinister reason to explain why the Minister is not prepared to do so.

Mr Hussey:

I shall speak on the motion and the amendment. As Mr Ervine said, we must look at both options. However, I would like to know what is meant by these words in the amendment:

"to examine any further awards".

I want an explanation of what the Executive intend to put to the Secretary of State.

Throughout the 30 years of terrorism, the people of Northern Ireland had the good fortune to have a number of emergency services dedicated to the preservation of law and order and the protection of life and property. The exceptional dedication of members of the RUC and the suffering that they endured have been recognised by the award of the George Cross to the corporate body. That award was instituted in 1940 to honour great heroism and conspicuous courage. In August, the Secretary of State confirmed that approval in principle had been granted by the Queen to the award of a special medal to prison staff in Northern Ireland. That was also in recognition of the professionalism, bravery and commitment of prison staff in serving the community over the past difficult, and often dangerous, 30 years. That medal, unlike the George Cross, is to be awarded to serving and former prison staff who have served with the Northern Ireland Prison Service for at least five years.

Today, the Assembly is rightly debating how it can properly recognise the exceptional service given by part-time and full-time members of the Northern Ireland Fire Service. That service has been given over the past 30 years of terrorism in Northern Ireland and, indeed, extends to many duties beyond those linked to terrorism. Their basic duties of attending normal incidents - if one can call them normal - of fire and vehicle accidents have been hindered by increased call-outs due to terrorist attacks on community and business. Their dedication to duty must be rewarded. I am aware, in my constituency, of the horrors that part-time and full-time firemen have had to face in carrying out their duties. They are in action night after night, engaging in hazardous operations - many times at the mercy of the elements. Part-time volunteers have had to carry on with their normal jobs and businesses as well. Some tribute should also be paid to those employers who have allowed employees who are part-time firemen to go when the call arises.

In 1954, the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations and Medals agreed the issue of the Fire Brigade Long Service and Good Conduct Medal, with the approval of the Queen. It is awarded for 20 years' service with good conduct. In the same year, another medal was struck, and it was to be awarded to members of recognised fire brigades for distinguished service. That medal may also be posthumously awarded for gallantry, and was named the Queen's Fire Medal. I believe that several officers in Northern Ireland have been honoured in that way.

Any award recognising the bravery of the Fire Service must be proper and adequate in status. I believe that a civic award is an insult. It has been rejected by the Fire Brigades Union and, indeed, by the Fire Authority itself. I welcome the fact that the Executive have recognised that a corporate award from the Assembly is more appropriate than the civic award first proposed. We have all received a note from the Fire Brigades Union highlighting the options that are available to the Assembly. One of the options that we are considering is to pursue corporate recognition within the purview of the Northern Ireland Assembly and, at the same time, making all possible efforts to achieve full state-endorsed recognition. I trust - I wait for the reply with reference to the amendment - that that is what is in the minds of those who are moving the amendment. Like Mrs Bell, I urge most fervently that the First Minister and Deputy First Minister pursue, through the Secretary of State, a proper state award for the Fire Service. I believe that it can be achieved.

A state award granted by the Queen to recognise the professionalism, bravery and commitment of all members of our Fire Service during the past 30 years of the terrorist campaign is, without doubt, appropriate. I regret the remarks that we have heard about possible discrimination within the service. I am sure that if somebody is standing at a window or trapped in a car, the first question asked is not whether he is a Protestant, a Catholic, a Nationalist or a Unionist. The firefighters do not ask the person, and the person that they are helping does not ask them. It does not come into the question. I know many brave brigade members from both sides of the community, and I have never been aware of any discrimination within the service.

4.45 pm

I urge the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister and the Executive to petition the Secretary of State to give the same consideration to the Fire Service as has been granted to the Northern Ireland Prison Service. I further urge that the Assembly recognise the great service that the Northern Ireland Fire Service has given to the community.

Mr Dallat:

If the proposers of the motion have the Fire Service and its interests at heart, they will have no problem accepting the amendment, because it offers greater flexibility than the motion. We are often accused of harking back to the past, but it is fair to say that the Fire Service began its life following the great fire of London in 1666. That was 24 years before the battle of the Boyne. The Fire Service has moved on since then - sometimes the motions before the House remain in that period.

Nearly 30 years ago, I was in Foyle Street in Derry while firemen dealt with a fire at the City Hotel. I was there not for the excitement but because two firemen were trapped inside. I am sad to say that they lost their lives. We must be careful not to make political capital out of the lives and deaths of firemen. We have a duty to respect them, and we have not done that today. The firemen do not want the issue to become yet another excuse for secretarian politics. They would prefer it to be settled in another way.

The House did itself no favours whatsoever when news of a medal was first announced. In the mad rush to create sound bites and score political points, Members behaved in the most disgraceful manner. What a pity it is that those Members were not so vocal when the Fire Service was repeatedly attacked in their constituencies with stones and bottles. The Fire Service was not the issue then, and neither is it now. We must bear that in mind.

The decision to honour the Fire Service was initiated by the former Minister of the Environment, Lord Dubs, and acted upon by the present Minister of HSS&PS, Ms de Brún, and there the matter should rest. To do otherwise is to do the opposite of what is proposed in the motion. No one disputes the great sacrifice and commitment to duty of members of the Fire Service. However, the issue should not become a political football, because that is not in anyone's interest, and certainly not in the interest of the Fire Service. Members may know that the Northern Ireland Fire Service is currently experiencing difficulty recruiting new members, particularly in rural areas. Emergency calls are answered by skeleton crews, and that is of greater concern than political arguments about the origins of a medal. If we allow that controversy to continue, an even smaller number of volunteers will come forward, because when politicians get their grubby hands on organisations and politicise them, experience tells us that they do those services no favours.

The Fire Service does not need such a controversial debate. Instead, it needs hard working politicians who are prepared to take as many risks in the interests of peace as they have done. Society views this type of motion as a time-wasting opportunity for gaining political capital at the expense of the services that Members claim to represent. In the past, another section of the emergency services was used for political purposes, namely the police service. Are we going to feed the Fire Service to the political vultures as well? I hope not.

I support the amendment. This is a one-off occasion, and I look forward to the implementation of the Minister's proposals. I salute the Fire Service for the work that it has done, not just over the past 30 years but since its inception.

Mr Berry:

I support the motion, and I welcome the opportunity to raise this serious matter. It is regrettable that we have to raise it in the Assembly. It is regrettable that the dedication and sacrifice of the Fire Service have not been recognised. It makes me sick sometimes to listen to the likes of John Dallat and members of Sinn Féin/IRA when they accuse my party colleagues of introducing party politics to the issue. It is too serious for party politics. I remind Mr Dallat that the Fire Brigades Union did not meet only the DUP. It also met representatives of the Ulster Unionist Party, Danny O'Connor from the SDLP, Sinn Féin, the Alliance Party and the PUP. It also met the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, who is a member of Sinn Féin/IRA. Indeed, I spoke to the Fire Brigades Union myself today. We are not using this politically.

The Fire Brigades Union represents 95% of uniformed Fire Service personnel and recommends a corporate award. It also stresses that it wants to see a state awarded medal for the Fire Service. That is the message that the DUP got, and I am sure that it is the message that the SDLP and other political parties also received - in no way was the Fire Brigades Union being political. It represents people of all backgrounds, including Roman Catholics, Protestants, those of other religions and people without religious belief.

Today's statement from the Minister included no com -mitment. She is making it the responsibility of the First and Deputy First Ministers to investigate whether a state award medal is possible or appropriate. The award of a state medal to the Fire Service is important, and I hope that the First and Deputy First Ministers will be recommending it to the Government and the Secretary of State rather than investigating whether it is appropriate or not.

We must listen closely to what the Fire Service and its representatives want. I have consulted ordinary fire officers and the chief fire officer at his Lisburn headquarters, and I received a clear message from the latter that, while they recommend awards, they also want to be recognised with a state-awarded medal. It has been said repeatedly today that the Fire Service has served our community with great distinction. It has sacrificed a lot, and officers have lost colleagues in the line of duty.

Loved ones have lost their husbands and fathers because of the dedication with which they served the entire community. I find it regrettable that the question of discrimination was brought into the debate today. As the hon Member for West Tyrone (Mr Hussey) said, Fire Service officers never questioned whether a house was Roman Catholic or Protestant when they were at the scene. I say to Members who talk of discrimination that they should go to a place such as Crossmaglen and get a religious breakdown of those at the Fire Service station. Then we would know all about discrimination. It is ridiculous that the issue was brought into todays debate.

Firefighters responded to over 31,000 incidents across Northern Ireland in 1999-2000, rescuing over 700 people in road traffic accidents and other special service calls. In no way are we being political about the issue. It is because of the sacrifice, dedication and distinction with which the Fire Service has served the community that it should have a state-awarded medal. I call on the House to back the motion for such a medal.

The Health Minister's statement does not go far enough. I am getting a clear message from the Fire Brigades Union that it will accept nothing less. I call on the House to support the motion, and I trust that the views of the Fire Brigades Union and all the ordinary fire officers throughout the country will be listened to, for they serve the entire community and have safeguarded our society over the past 30 years of the troubles.

Mr Dallat said that certain politicians were not quick to support the Fire Service when it was under attack from their own community. In this corner of the House, we state clearly that we are well aware that the Fire Service came under attack not only from the Republican or Nationalist community but from Loyalists: we condemn that outright. We condemn those in our own community who attacked the Fire Service, for it is a neutral service that has served the entire community in Northern Ireland. I condemn attacks carried out on members of the Fire Service from whatever section of the community they come. After all, they were going out to save lives, which is the most important thing.

I support the motion and call on the House to do so. Once again, I remind Members to listen closely to what the Fire Brigades Union and other members of the Fire Service have told us. A state-awarded medal must come as soon as possible.

Ms Ramsey:

Go raibh maith agat, Madam Deputy Speaker. I also welcome today's announcement by the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, in which she informed the Assembly of the Executive's decision to grant the Fire Authority a corporate award. I also wish to express my thanks to the Fire Authority and my gratitude for the sacrifice and commitment of individual members.

My Colleague, John Kelly, was not saying anything about firefighters discriminating about where they went, or about postcodes when responding to fires or road traffic accidents. He was pointing out that discrimination has been recorded in the employment of Catholics in the Fire Authority. The motion tabled by Jim Shannon and William Hay shows us exactly where the DUP is coming from. It is clearly about marking out Unionist territory. The idea of a proposed state award to the Fire Service is about rewarding one section of the community more than another, and we cannot allow that to happen. The motion shows the DUP in its true-blue colours of non-inclusiveness again. The DUP showed it in the Assembly last week when it talked about victims. It assumed that some victims are better than others, that some families' suffering is better than others. Victims of state violence are of no importance to them. We are on the road to equality, whether the DUP likes it or not.

5.00 pm

We must have equal recognition for all in the Fire Authority, and the announcement of a corporate award today will achieve that. A local award will be acceptable to all, not just one section of the community. Mr Shannon said that the Fire Service is made up of men and women - sadly, a small percentage of women, which is another argument for another day - from both sides of the community, and I am glad that he recognises that. However, he must recognise that a section of the Fire Service will resent the proposal of a state award. That cannot be good for staff morale. We have heard throughout the debate about funding and staffing.

A state award, as proposed by the DUP, is about wanting to recognise only the Unionist tradition. There are Nationalists in it too. Any award should take account of all traditions. Mrs Bell and Mr Ervine said that there were people of no religion, and an award should take account of that. An award should be acceptable to all sections of the community. An award that reflects the ethos of one community cannot, and will not, be inclusive.

Nobody will dispute the service that the Fire Authority has given to society, but I want to point out that a state award is a British award and will not be acceptable to Nationalists in the Fire Service. The Good Friday Agreement says

"All participants acknowledge the sensitivity of the use of symbols and emblems for public purposes, and the need in particular in creating the new institutions to ensure that such symbols and emblems are used in a manner which promotes mutual respect rather than division."

The DUP's motion does not take that on board. Where is the sensitivity in the motion? Coming from a party that has worked against the agreement, the Executive and the notion - God forbid - of equality for Nationalists, it is of no surprise to me. The DUP and others in the Assembly need to face up to the fact that the Nationalist community is off its knees, and it is not going back. It will achieve equality.

A state award will discourage Nationalists from joining the Fire Service, but that may suit the movers of the motion. My party will not support the motion, but we will support the amendment put forward by Mr O'Connor. Unlike the DUP, we support equality for all in the community. Go raibh maith agat.

Mr Carrick:

The degree of rancour that has been introduced into the debate is regrettable. As I read the motion, I have some difficulty finding the party political agenda referred to by Sinn Féin/IRA and the Member from the Alliance Party.

There can be no equivocation, no doubt and no prevarication. The amendment proposed by Mr O'Connor smacks of an intermediate step. The vast majority of people in Northern Ireland have no difficulty in accepting the valour, bravery, courage, dedication and sacrifice of the Northern Ireland Fire Service.

We do not need an intermediate step; we want to go for the full thing, which is the purpose of the motion. Even to the most casual, impartial observer, it must be obvious that members of the Northern Ireland Fire Service have played an invaluable, vital and distinctive role in society. Their extraordinary and special role over the past 30 years of terrorist bombings and mayhem has demanded the highest degree of bravery and heroism. Risking life and limb, firefighters never shirked from their duty, even in the most horrific circumstances or even when they were under physical attack from onlooking hate-mongers who associated themselves with sectarian terrorist crimes.

That commitment and dedication is further emphasised when one takes into account the fact that many firefighters are part-time, retained firefighters. They did not enjoy the same advantages and support that the RUC and the Ambulance Service did when responding to emergency calls. In response to calls, part-time firefighters had to leave their home or place of work and negotiate their way through traffic to the fire station, without the help of distinctive sirens or signs fitted to their vehicle. Those retained firefighters suffered much stress, as did their families, who did not know whether they would return home uninjured or return home at all.

Despite a campaign by families of retained firefighters, that handicap for part-time members of the Fire Service has yet to be dealt with. I call upon the chief fire officer to adequately and speedily address the issue in consultation with retained firefighters. In view of the danger that such men encountered and their courage in the face of adversity, it is scandalous to deny a state award in recognition of the sterling sacrificial service rendered by Fire Service personnel in what was in many cases a hostile environment.

Many of our firefighters have served throughout the entire period of civil unrest. We owe those brave officers a great debt of gratitude. They bear physical and psychological scars, testimony to the horrific and traumatic circumstances in which they had to carry out their duties on behalf of all of us. We are all aware from experiences in our constituencies of many acts of heroism, bravery and sacrifice. It is only fitting, therefore, that the brave firefighters, and their families, be properly recognised with a state award and nothing less than a state award. Anything less for the Fire Service personnel in Northern Ireland would be a calculated snub for the gallant and brave members of that meritorious emergency service.

Mr Gibson:

I am rather disheartened by some of the words used in the debate. I was surprised that the Executive, and indeed the Minister, who is responsible for emergency services, should think of making a distinction between the level of bravery and the level of award.

What is so different about an Indian surgeon in Omagh receiving an OBE - a state award? Have the Minister and the Executive caved in to the idea that there should be various levels of reward for bravery? The Minister needs to rethink her position on that subject. She is responsible for this emergency service, so how could she suggest that Fire Service personnel, who have given great service to every member of the community, are not as brave as those in other emergency services?

It was a devout Roman Catholic who saved my brother's premises when they were petrol bombed. It was an equally hard-working and respected Roman Catholic who saved my own premises when my car was set on fire at two o'clock in the morning. I cannot understand the claims of bigotry and sectarianism from the Sinn Féin Benches. However, I see the duplicity that they have demonstrated over the past few days. It is perfectly all right for Nationalists and Republicans to use the state when they are seeking a judicial review in the High Court if they think that the state will cave in, but when it comes to recognising a state award, the evasion, the equivocation and the hiding begins. That has been demonstrated here today, initiated by Mr J Kelly and continued by Ms Ramsey and others. Indeed, it has been a desperate indication that it is not equality that they recognise, but inequality. They are almost saying to the rest of the community that if something is not Catholic, it should not exist - and that is horrifying. The equality laws will be put to good use in my community. I will take every opportunity to make sure that the coalition of greed that has often denied the Protestant community is rectified. I want to make that point clear.

Other emergency services have had their reward, and those have been mentioned. Why should the bravery of someone who releases a young 20-year-old from the wreck of a car on the A5 Ballygawley-Omagh road and staunches the flow of blood from a severed artery not have equal recognition with the surgeon who tenderly sews up that person's wounds and restores him to health? One can be given a state award. Doctors and nurses have received those awards, and our police and the prison service will receive them. Why not apply equality fully and ensure that our gallant Fire Service personnel also receive equality of recognition through a state award?

It is almost sinful to think that a Minister in charge of the Fire Service - a service that all of us depend on for life, limb and home - is even thinking along the lines that I have heard this afternoon.

I am also surprised that someone in the SDLP whom I respect - Mr Danny O'Connor - should have succumbed to Sinn Féin's duplicity. Some people talked about there being no guns inside the door, outside the door or under the table but quickly forgot their words. When I respect someone, I do not expect him to depart from known and accepted standards. I did not expect that from those who can make the distinction, but I expect it from those who find it difficult to tell the truth at any time. It was almost foreseeable that Sinn Féin would not recognise a state award. Over the weekend, they were quite prepared to use the state for other legal activities.

5.15 pm

 

Let us introduce equality into the debate, and recognise the service that Members have talked about. Every Member who has spoken has paid, quite rightly, a glowing tribute to the bravery of the members of the Fire Service. I know of 126 people in my constituency who can testify to their bravery. So let us honour those people who have honoured us with their professionalism.

I thank Mr Shannon and Mr Hay for proposing a state award. There should be equality for all, and no distinction in what constitutes an act of bravery. Let us be fair to the Fire Service.

Mr Davis:

I want to pay tribute to the Fire Brigades Union. Throughout the debate, it has kept Members fully informed of what is taking place. I am disappointed that there have been sentiments expressed today that have not helped that debate.

When the matter was first raised, I remember asking the Minister about a friend of mine from Longstone Street in Lisburn who was killed during the troubles. He was blown up on the Stewartstown Road. The debate has moved on from that. However, when the matter was originally raised with the previous direct rule Minister, Lord Dubs, the answer given was as follows:

"The Minister is emphatic that there will be no state awards to Northern Ireland bodies"

We have moved on a bit - albeit slowly - from Lord Dubs's day. He was emphatic that there would be no state award, but we are at long last moving in the right direction. Although one can have sympathy with the motion and the amendment, I personally believe that the amendment gives both. Therefore I do not see any difficulty in our supporting the amendment.

A fortnight ago, Alliance Party Members withdrew their motion because, as I understand it, they wanted to talk to the Minister. Eventually, the matter was brought to the Executive where it was discussed last week. Arising out of that discussion, we had the Minister's statement this morning. It said

"The Executive also agreed that the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister should investigate whether a State Award would also be achievable or appropriate."

I am prepared to run with that.

There has been talk today about the Fire Brigades Union. It has spoken with me, and I have taken guidance from it, as have other Members. Therefore, on the advice that I have been given, and because I believe we can achieve it all, I support the amendment.

Mr Kane:

I feel privileged to register my support for the motion. The unconditional discharge of duties by the Northern Ireland Fire Brigade is beyond dispute. In the protection of people and property and during periods of extreme civil unrest when bombings and violence seemed to reach new heights, the officers of the Northern Ireland Fire Brigade were there.

A debt of gratitude is felt not only by civilians but also by the business community, which stood to lose so much as bombers targeted the commercial hearts of towns and cities. Without the efforts of the Fire Service, countless more properties - on which all communities depended for supplies - would have been lost.

The personal risk was and is just as great for Fire Service personnel when dealing with emergencies unrelated to terrorism. In North Antrim, firefighter Robin Neil lost his life when attempting to rescue an individual from a farmyard well. He, along with two others, was heroically taken by officer Charles McAuley from the well where they had been asphyxiated. The three men did not survive, but are we to ignore the heroism of the firefighter who lost his life and the officer who risked all to save lives?

That is the level of risk under which the personnel of the Fire Service work. It is the level of risk and the willingness to take risks that the motion asks us to acknowledge. If we are to demonstrate our coming of age as a society, we must commend the work of those who made sacrifices and took risks to secure our safety, often at the cost of their own life. That sacrifice was made by, and on behalf of, both sections of our community.

The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety (Ms de Brún):

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Uasal Hay as an tsaincheist seo a thabhairt go hUrlár an Tí. Gabhaim buíochas fosta leis an Uasal O'Connor as an leasú a mhol sé. Tá mé sásta go raibh mé in ann freastal ar an díospóireacht seo agus chuir mé suim, agus mé ag éisteacht, i mbarúlacha Teachtaí.

I thank Mr Shannon and Mr Hay for bringing the issue to the House, and Mr O'Connor for his amendment. The amendment is timely, considering the Executive's decision at last Thursday's meeting, on which I reported to Members this morning.

I am pleased to have been able to attend the debate, and I have listened with interest. I support the sentiments expressed by members of all parties about the courage, dedication and commitment of the Fire Service. We also heard about the difficulties facing firefighters in their work - some specific examples were given - and the exceptional service given by firefighters and their support staff over the past 30 years.

As I said this morning, the Executive have agreed that the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister should investigate whether a state award is achievable or appropriate. The Executive decided that consideration should be given to what form the state award might take. The Executive will reconsider the matter when that work is completed.

Reference was made to the British Administration prior to the establishment of the Executive. Lord Dubs made his position clear on the subject in a radio interview on 6 October. Points were also made about value for money, comparisons with other services, pay and conditions and other practical measures concerned with the Fire Service. The Fire Service compares well with other services, as has been confirmed recently by the fire inspector's report. People need to realise that pay and conditions of service are not negotiated locally. They are agreed by the joint council, which is made up of employers and Fire Brigades Union representatives. The Fire Brigade is also making every effort on the recruitment, retention and the career progression of women.

Some people suggested that the Fire Brigades Union would only accept a state award, but that was not the position presented to me at its October meeting. I was careful to listen and record the alternatives that it proposed. An OBE is awarded to an individual. Therefore comparisons between individual surgeons and what is being suggested in my statement, or in the amendment, would be unfair.

This morning, I made a statement that the Executive had reconsidered a previous decision on the form that recognition of outstanding service should take. I reiterate that the performance has been outstanding. The Executive agreed that a corporate award by the Assembly would be more appropriate. They also agreed that the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister should investigate whether a state award for the Fire Service would be achievable or appropriate, and they will consider that again at a later date.

Mr O'Connor:

Some Members have said that the amendment in some way precludes a further award. It does not. The decision taken by the Executive last week was that the dedication and courage of our firefighters should be acknowledged. Mrs Bell rightly said that the Assembly has never made an award to anybody, so for the Fire Service to be the recipient of an inaugural award would make it even more prestigious. I deliberately tried to stay clear of the political points that others chose to make, and I tried to be as apolitical as possible. I am not trying to cast a slur, as has been suggested, on firefighters, or the Fire Brigades Union, by proposing the amendment. The amendment allows people to put something in their pocket and look for something else.

The award mentioned in the motion is outside our gift. It is dependent on the Secretary of State, and he does not have to grant our requests. The award stated in the amendment is within our gift. It is within the gift of the Assembly to create an award that will adequately reward the people who have served this country so well over many years and in many horrific incidents. Mr Ervine said that the amendment and the motion were not exclusive. My amendment does not exclude the further possibility of some other type of award. However, the motion does not allow the Assembly to make an award. We should bear in mind the Minister's statement that the Executive have agreed that the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister should investigate whether a state award would be achievable or appropriate.

5.30 pm

We should bear in mind Mr Davis's reiteration of the statement by Lord Dubs that no state awards would be made to Northern Ireland bodies. The important factor is to decide whether such a move is achievable or appropriate, but such matters should not be aired in public. It is for the Minister and the Executive to discuss any such forthcoming issues.

My amendment is an attempt to recognise, in an non-divisive way, all those who gave gallant service, without discrimination. I recognise the bravery of all those people, and we owe them a debt of gratitude. But a debt of gratitude is not necessarily enough; we need to create an award that will make service members feel that we, as their representatives, acknowledge what they have done. We must give them something that it is within our power to offer.

Mr Hay:

During the debate, it was difficult to tell whether Members were referring to the same amendment and the same motion. If Members had listened to Mr Shannon, they would know that he did not make any political points in his speech. The parties opposite, who lectured us about not bringing politics into the issue, did just that.

The amendment does not go far enough. It falls short of an appropriate recognition of the bravery of our Fire Service members in Northern Ireland. Members should read the Minister's statement about what she is trying to achieve. I remind Members that, a few weeks ago, the Alliance Party brought a motion to the House. On the day of debate, it withdrew the motion, but it did not give its reason for doing so. It was probably an attempt to do some deal with the Minister.

Mrs E Bell:

On a point of information.

Mr Hay :

There is no such thing as a point of information in this House - [Interruption].

Madam Deputy Speaker:

Order. The Member who is winding up has been asked to give way.

Mr Hay:

No. The Alliance party has had two bites of the cherry here, or perhaps three. As I said, it had an opportunity to move a motion in the House a fortnight ago, but we were not told why the motion was withdrawn. There is no point - [Interruption].

Mrs E Bell:

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I point out once again that in my statement to the Assembly I gave a reason for withdrawing? If Mr Hay does not know it - [Interruption].

Madam Deputy Speaker:

That is not a point of order. Mr Hay, please continue.

Mr Hay:

I shall take up my point about the Alliance Party again. I think it is extremely important, irrespective of the excuses that we are hearing today, that Alliance Members had an opportunity and they missed it. There is no point in their coming to the House today to complain. As for the comments that were made by Sinn Féin/IRA, as always we treat them with contempt - [Interruption].

Mr J Kelly:

Is it in order for a Member to describe another party by a name other than that designated in the Register of the Assembly?

Madam Deputy Speaker:

I shall come back to you on that point.

Mr Hay:

We seem to be ruffling a few feathers in the House this afternoon, which does not surprise me. I was about to say that what was left out of the Minister's statement - [Interruption]

Madam Deputy Speaker:

Order. The Member is entitled to speak.

Mr Hay:

We have heard Sinn Féin/IRA go through a number of issues today. Nightly, in my constituency, the Fire Service is stoned in Republican areas. It is rather sad that we have to bring the motion to the House. Had the British Government wanted to recognise the service that the firefighters have given to Northern Ireland over the years, they could have done so. Mr Ervine said that we needed to get the British Government on board to recognise properly the job that firemen have done. We all know that many areas of the Fire Service have been underfunded over the years.

There is something that needs to be said: we have had a terrorist campaign of bombing, burning and shooting in the Province for 30 years. Many of the Fire Service personnel who were injured in those bombings, burnings and shootings paid the supreme price. I do not need lectures from Sinn Féin/IRA on how to behave. The Minister seems to forget that the Northern Ireland Fire Service has suffered severely over the past 30 years of violence. We all know that throughout the troubles, many of our Fire Service personnel had to retire early because of serious injury. In fact, I will go further. Many of them, under difficult circumstances, risked their life to save others.

It is a tragedy that the debate has turned the way that it has. Mr Danny O'Connor heard from the union representative who contacted him today that there should be a state award. I think, Mr O'Connor, that that was made clear to you as you spoke to the union representative over the telephone.

Madam Deputy Speaker:

Order. The Member should address the Chair.

Mr Hay:

There seems to be a problem. I know that the Fire Brigades Union met all political parties in Northern Ireland, and the message that came across was that the proper recognition would be a state medal. That is the message that Danny O'Connor, representing the SDLP, got this afternoon from a union representative. I would ask Mr O'Connor to state that - not now but in the future. It needs to be made clear.

If the Minister does not have the courage to consider a state medal, the matter should be taken out of her hands. What is being proposed in the amendment and the statement would not be acceptable to the union representatives of the Fire Service personnel. I do not believe that the Minister has the courage or the strength to take the matter forward in the manner that it requires. I ask the Secretary of State to take it out of her hands. He should deal with it.

I have no faith in the First and Deputy First Ministers dealing with the matter either. It is wrong for some Ulster Unionists to support the amendment, because they know that it does not go far enough. They are hoping that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will make everything all right, but we know that that will not be the case.

Some Members say that we can give an award and then possibly look at a state award. The motion asks only that we make representations to the Secretary of State for a state award. That is all. One would think from listening to some of those who spoke on the amendment that we are asking for some great task to be undertaken. If we genuinely want to recognise the firefighters of Northern Ireland, there is only one way to do it, and that is a state award. That is the message from the union representatives of the firefighters of Northern Ireland. That is the only way in which it can be done.

If the Minister responsible for the issue cannot deal with it, we should get someone else who can - and I do not mean the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister.

5.45 pm

Question put, That the amendment be made.

The Assembly divided: Ayes 43; Noes 22.

Ayes

Alex Attwood, Roy Beggs, Billy Bell, Eileen Bell, P J Bradley, Joe Byrne, Robert Coulter, John Dallat, Duncan Shipley Dalton, Ivan Davis, Bairbre de Brún, Arthur Doherty, Mark Durkan, Reg Empey, Sean Farren, John Fee, David Ford, Sam Foster, Tommy Gallagher, Michelle Gildernew, Carmel Hanna, Joe Hendron, John Hume, Derek Hussey, John Kelly, Patricia Lewsley, Alban Maginness, Kieran McCarthy, Alasdair McDonnell, Alan McFarland, Michael McGimpsey, Eddie McGrady, Gerry McHugh, Pat McNamee, Francie Molloy, Sean Neeson, Danny O'Connor, Dara O'Hagan, Eamonn ONeill, Sue Ramsey, Ken Robinson, John Tierney, David Trimble.

Noes

Fraser Agnew, Paul Berry, Gregory Campbell, Mervyn Carrick, Wilson Clyde, Nigel Dodds, David Ervine, Oliver Gibson, William Hay, David Hilditch, Roger Hutchinson, Gardiner Kane, William McCrea, Maurice Morrow, Ian Paisley Jnr, Edwin Poots, Mark Robinson, Peter Robinson, Jim Shannon, Denis Watson, Jim Wells, Sammy Wilson.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Main question, as amended, put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That this Assembly will institute an Assembly award that recognises the great sacrifice and commitment to duty of members of the Fire Service in Northern Ireland, and liaise with the Fire Service unions/representatives to examine any further awards.

Adjourned at 5.58 pm.

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